Jay Dyer Debunks Argument Against Iconography

Added: 2026-06-01

[00:00:00]Hey Jay, can you hear me? Mhm.

[00:00:02]Hey Yo.

[00:00:04]Quick question. I'm coming from like a Protestant evangelical background.

[00:00:10]And one thing I've been wrestling with and this argument tends to come up a lot uh when listening to kind of counter-orthodox arguments >> Mhm.

[00:00:18]uh on on icon veneration.

[00:00:21]And um the the the passage, I think that that's kind of been stuck with me more recently has been Exodus 32 specifically thinking like verse five, where Aaron says that we're we're creating a festival to the Lord or that tomorrow we'll have a festival to the Lord.

[00:00:38]And the way I kind of like am synthesizing that is like you have the golden calf and then Aaron is like, you know, basically saying, "Hey, we're going to, you know, have a festival to the Lord that's kind of represented through this this calf that the golden calf that we've created." Which sounds sort of similar to the idea of um you know, the the icon honor passing through to the prototype. So, I'm I'm wondering if you can help me kind of decouple um maybe what's going on in Exodus.

[00:01:08]Why that's you know, Yeah, cuz because on on because it's an idol, because it's a golden calf and God is not imaged by a golden calf. In fact, I made this exact same argument refuting Pachamama.

[00:01:22]Because the line of argumentation the line of argumentation that Lofton had about why Pachamama is okay. Yo, dude, it's kind of like that. Look, here's a key thing. Anybody that's a wigger apologist except for myself, avoid them.

[00:01:35]Okay? Avoid Lofton. Avoid Ruslan. Okay?

[00:01:39]And you're going to be doing fine right away. That's a number one discernment trait right there. Listen, so when Lofton made this argument, I argued against it. And I said uh no.

[00:01:51]Uh the line of argumentation that because there's some similarities between the the object and the image that yo it's yo Pachamama kind of like Mary, dude. It's a woman and a goddess or whatever. That's kind of like Mary.

[00:02:04]Oh, okay. So, I can venerate the loa on Diddy's back?

[00:02:11]Remember what's her name? Erzulie Dantor, right? Diddy has an image of a woman with a child that looks like Mary, but it's Erzulie Dantor, which is one of the demons of the loa of the Caribbean voodoo cult, right?

[00:02:26]Well, according to Lofton's logic, I could venerate Diddy's back.

[00:02:33]Why not?

[00:02:34]It's kind of like Mary.

[00:02:35]I mean, if Pachamama goes, why not?

[00:02:38]So, the argument is not is there any similarity that makes it pass from the prototype to the type or from the type to the prototype. The question is what is the church's decision on the canonical limitations of iconography. And that's why it's not anything goes. That's why we don't accept the Vatican Renaissance art of peepees and butts and boobs in your face everywhere in the church. That's not iconography.

[00:03:03]The 7th Ecumenical Council has an entire theological teaching about icons and what's canonical.

[00:03:08]So, the image Christ is the icon of the Father. So, if this line of argumentation about icons being wrong because of the golden calf, then icons are wrong in the case of Christ because he's not the icon of the Father and you shouldn't worship Christ. So, that would be a very bad line of argumentation.