Live Chatting About Kurt Cobain’s Death + the state of the case.

Added: 2026-05-27

[00:00:03]Hey everyone. Hopefully everyone can hear me. Okay. Uh just waiting for uh Rachel to pop in. Uh this is sort of right after she gets off from work. So, um she should be here pretty quick. Um Jennifer, how long might we go today?

[00:00:19]I'm thinking about an hour, an hour and 15 minutes. Um, yeah, if somebody could let me know in the comments if you can hear me and I'm not just talking to myself, that would be amazing because I can't see my little microphone going.

[00:00:32]Um, so yeah. Um, hopefully everyone is having a good week. I know it was a uh holiday yesterday, I think. Um, in America, we had our long weekend the weekend before um which is uh Victoria Day. Perfect. Thank you so much, Stuart.

[00:00:50]Um, so yeah, uh, lots to talk about today. We've all, I think, seen Courtney everywhere in our feeds, infuriating all of us. Um, she's really putting it out there, really putting it on thick. Um, you know, with uh what a legend she is, what a great musician she is, um, you know, what a great mom she is, etc. And it's like people forget to look up the fact that Francis won't even speak to her. So it's very um I don't know frustrating is the word. [ __ ] um makes me want to throttle her and the [ __ ] um you know little I want to say PR company she's working with but the the little publications she's working with that are getting her little [ __ ] out everywhere. But it's like um you can only write so many times about how this woman has abused Francis and people just don't seem to listen. So it's kind of wild. Hey guys, just saying a quick hello. So we tried to do this one a little earlier.

[00:02:00]Normally we do it when I get off from work, but I decided to um do this one before work uh so that we could hang out with some people in different time zones. How many? Um I know. Thank goodness she didn't have more children.

[00:02:14]I mean people should have to get a license to have children. I think you know their privilege not you know whatever Courtney used them as um I think she used Francis to trap Kurt and that is not me being sexist. I that is certainly not something all women do by any stretch of the imagination. But, you know, I think she um I wouldn't put anything past her. Um yeah, I'm sure Francis is annoyed, too.

[00:02:47]It would be I'm sure Francis wants to come out and say like, "Hey, I don't talk to my mom. My mom hasn't met my son." And um but you know, she probably I think she just kind of wants to stay out of the spotlight completely. So, um what's your opinion on her Billy Corgan interview? I think it was disgusting and I think Billy is just as gross as she is and I can't believe the [ __ ] um the two of them sort of came up with together. Um I wish she had married Billy and whether that turned out, you know, to be Billy dying, I think that they're a perfect couple.

[00:03:24]Um so yes, uh no, exactly right. Francis hasn't spoken to her in years. And um I think you know she so she got a restraining order against her mom when she was a teenager because her mom was killing her pets. And her mom would when Francis would do something wrong, Courtney would murder one of Francis's dogs to punish her or a cat. Usually it was a dog, but she would murder a pet to punish Francis. So um at some point Francis got a restraining order. I believe Francis was 17 at this point and she went to live with Wendy became her guardian for the last year and then she um sort of you know went on her own after that and then when she became close with her mom again for a few years that's the Isaiah time where you know we did that entire uh podcast series on how her mom got her hooked on drugs because this is Courtney's MO right she will get someone hooked on drugs and I know this from talking to people who know assistants who've worked for Courtney.

[00:04:24]So, she will get them hooked on drugs and then she will use that against them.

[00:04:29]So, um that's what she did to Kurt and that's what she did to Francis and it's all over the Isaiah lawsuit what you know how she used the drugs to control Francis and get Francis to give her more money from men of music and um once Francis got clean she then cut Courtney out of her life again. So, yeah.

[00:04:51]Exactly. Uh, Francis wants nothing to do with her. And I'm so tired of people pretending like Courtney is not the monster that she is, you know, and I get this feeling like even when it comes out and Courtney gets arrested and people are still not going to backtrack.

[00:05:09]They're still not going to go, "Oh, you were right. I was wrong. I'm so sorry."

[00:05:12]Um, you know, it's like the people who stuck up for Bundy. They're just like, you know, um, they're not uh actually those people. Admiral did uh did backtrack and realize she was very wrong. But um um anyways, yes, that is incredibly abusive. I hate smashing pumpkins. I love Halloween. Yes, because I smash pumpkins. I mean, Halloween is just the best. Um I'm just going to check. Give me two seconds here. I just want to check and see where Rachel is at. Okay, perfect. Um looks like she's still coming. I'm just going to ask her if she needs the link. Do you need the link or do you have it?

[00:05:50]Perfect. Um, so behind the scenes, we're um we're trying to we have a few things in that we're working on, but the thing that we're trying to do is find somebody higher than the Seattle PD. They have shown us that they have no interest in even looking at our evidence. And, you know, I mean, Brian and I were talking again yesterday and it's just like the the corruption in, you know, almost all of the police departments. And I know they're really good cops and it must be so frustrating for the good cops because there's so much corruption. And then, you know, Brian talks about how the medical uh the laboratories just work in conjunction with the cops. So, there's no third party. There's no one to go like, "Hey, somebody isn't doing this right." And I started I started taking a course um on uh Destiny investigation.

[00:06:43]So, it's a course that they give to the police and I got accepted because of my work on the paper and like guys, it's so obvious. It's like wear protective equipment, do this.

[00:06:55]And so, one of the things is like you're supposed to be wearing personal PPE on your shoes. And if we look at those pictures, nobody in there is wearing personal protective equipment, nothing like that. And that's just a small thing. I mean then then we're going to talk about dragging in a second, but every single thing it's going through is such common sense that you I mean the level of moronic to not do the things that are in the course and this is widely accepted as the standard course for all police officers now. Um but you know it wasn't much different in '94.

[00:07:28]there were some differences but when I look at even things so it says you know the first thing that you should do as basically the medical examiner because you're the the uh destiny investigators you should walk around the body make sure you don't step in anything and walk at the body from all angles and start looking around the body to see if the body was dragged because you of course as we all know you need to go in and look at every scene as if it could be a homicide.

[00:07:57]So, um, what we have, you know, noted in our paper is how, I mean, it's very clear Curt's body was dragged. You know, there's the blood on the bottom of Kurt's jeans, the handprint, the bloody handprint, and then there's the blood on the bottom of Kurt's shirt, and there is no blood on the floor. So, you're looking at the floor and the floor is very clean and all the dust scene photos. There's no way that the blood could have gotten there unless Kurt is being lifted and his head is like this and the wound is bleeding down onto his shirt. And so, you're you know, I'm going through this and I knew it was going to be like what the [ __ ] is actually happening as I'm going through this death scene investigation training. But you know even in the first two hours of training it's talking about these things that any novice I think would know to do at a deskine bagging the hands um you know so that they can test for things later because once a death scene's contaminated that's it nothing else can be done. So, um, even the dramatized crime shows do PPE. Exactly. You know, I mean, it's just wild. And I can't believe that there's no authority, no upper authority that can go like, "Hey, we Yeah, they didn't do this right." So, even if we don't think it was a homicide, somebody needs to do an actual investigation because they didn't do one. And you know, of course, we've said that a million times, like somebody needs to actually, it's not like they did an investigation and it's closed. They didn't do any investigation. So that's what we're saying. And the fact that there doesn't seem to be any higher authority that will take this on is just mind-boggling to me. No one policing the police.

[00:09:40]Exactly. Right. Um Oh, hey Patrick. Uh Patrick is here. Unfortunately, he's at work, so I think he's probably on his break just hanging out. Um yeah, the angle of the gunshot of course and you know Brian and I have talked about doing Brian did a case um on a for a kid you know younger man named Billy Joe Johnson and um we will be doing a live about Chris and we will shout you guys out.

[00:10:12]Thank you. Appreciate it. Uh I can't wait to hear what you have to say. Um please send me a link. Um, I'll have to watch it later, but send me a link. Um, so anyways, Brian did a case on a on a kid named Billy Joe Johnson and it was in the South and um, I believe this happened in 2008 and it was so clearly a homicide. The coroner was under such pressure because this kid was African-American and he was dating a white girl and she was under such pressure to call it a suicide that she basically felt in fear for her family and ended up changing the death certificate to suicide. And so you look at these types of cases and you know Brian has done a lot of work. Um he's done a lot of work on on cases where people think it's a suicide but it's or sorry where people are trying to frame a suicide as a homicide. Um oh sorry I just have to send Rachel a link.

[00:11:09]So we've considered doing um doing the Billy Joe Johnson case. I'm just not sure where to put it because Rachel and I are doing a new podcast called The Creepy Sleepy Club. And it's not like any murder is like, "Hey, let's sit in our pajamas and talk about this." But that's sort of the vibe. There's sort of murders that are older and and you know, not a lot of family is alive and we're not making light of what has happened to the victims. But Billy Joe's case specifically is so [ __ ] heart-wrenching and so serious and mirrors so many things that still go on that I'm not sure how we can even frame it. Um, let me just get Rachel that invite and then um I'm going to tell you guys one other quick thing here.

[00:12:00]Um, so I was talking to my husband about Billy Joe Armstrong. I know this is kind of a weird turn. Um, and why Billy Joe Armstrong allows Courtney to um, or I mean worse, why he sort of sticks up for her while he was in her movie at Sundance.

[00:12:23]and um because he knows Fat Mike and I don't understand how he doesn't know that it was a homicide. Um but John reminded me that in 94 Courtney was doing like a live thing and she said uh something like Kurt would be so happy to see Green Day's fame and so happy to see what they've become. He loved Green Day. And I know Kurt did like Green Day, but I think I mean Courtney doesn't know [ __ ] She's just a scene stir. Um, who, you know, just will say whatever. But I think that was such a boon to Billy Joe.

[00:13:02]I think that was such a I think he probably took that as such a kindness that maybe he maybe that's why. I don't know. Uh, that's the only thing I can understand.

[00:13:14]Um, okay. Uh, Rachel is here, so I am going to pop her in. Here we go.

[00:13:22]Hi, how are you?

[00:13:23]>> Good. How are you?

[00:13:25]>> Oh, I didn't realize you were already live for the last four.

[00:13:28]>> Already live for 20 minutes. Yes. And I'm just going on and on about everything under the sun. So, >> no. You're good. You're good. How's it going?

[00:13:38]>> Good. Good. Um, we were just talking about Green Day and um, somebody said, "I can't see Kurt loving Green Day." I don't know why you wouldn't be able to see that because >> uh, I mean they came from basically K Records I think was Lookout Records sort of twin on the other side of of the country. Uh, and I mean they put in their dues probably more than Nirvana.

[00:14:02]They were playing live since ' 87 and didn't get really fake till 94. So, um, so yeah, I I know people lots of people don't like Green Day, but, um, >> um, Kurt definitely did, though.

[00:14:14]>> Yeah, >> he he made that he made that known.

[00:14:18]>> Yeah. And I mean, you know, it's in Kathleen's Kathleen Hannah's book, and >> Right.

[00:14:23]>> Yeah. Um, >> I'm pretty sure he spoke about it himself as well.

[00:14:28]>> Yeah. And uh so I think people might be not quite understanding the actual history of who Green Day were. I'm not, you know, discussing who Green Day is, but who they were. Um >> and I think we I probably shouldn't keep reading these comments or I'm gonna have to get into a tie about who Green Day actually was.

[00:14:48]>> Michelle was just gonna start Molly.

[00:14:51]>> Yeah.

[00:14:53]So um so yeah. So, let's go ahead and Sorry, I just saw uh Hello, Michelle Rachel, try to contact Lori Barbaro. She knows much more than you might think about the whole case. Um, who's Lori Barbaro again? She's from Cat. Yeah, Babes and Toyland. I was totally blank. I was like, Cat's thing.

[00:15:13]>> Yeah. Yeah. So, she's from Babes.

[00:15:16]>> Um, and uh, are people not allowed to have an opinion? Of course.

[00:15:21]>> Of course. We're just joking. We're just joking.

[00:15:24]>> I mean, She's a diear fan, but >> I mean I can you can have your opinion and I can have my opinion about Green Day. I'm not really sure where that is going, but okay. Um, now somebody said, "Where did Kurt say he liked Green Day?"

[00:15:38]Rachel, do you >> um I don't I'm pretty sure it was in an interview, like a live interview. I don't know exact I would have to look to know exactly which one, but I >> I'm positive I remember him talking. I mean, it wasn't like some long thing about how much he loved them or something, but >> just a comment about liking Green Day.

[00:15:59]>> Well, he went and saw them with Kathleen. Courtney said he loved them.

[00:16:02]Patrick says he loves them. So, not really sure why this is a this isn't a forensic debate as to whether or not he liked Green. There's no reason he wouldn't have liked them. They came from the same [ __ ] scene, you know, like they, you know, he liked Ben Weasel. Uh, Screeching Weasel was on the lookout.

[00:16:18]Green Day is just, come on, they're a [ __ ] great band. Billy's a great songwriter.

[00:16:22]>> Oh yeah.

[00:16:23]>> And you don't get to say Green Day sold out and then say Nirvana didn't. That's [ __ ] up. Okay.

[00:16:28]>> Well, and I'm pretty sure, didn't BJ also talk about that in the video where he talks about um like basically how him and Kurt kind of just like, >> you know, barely missed meeting each other because he was intimidated and whatnot. And >> um >> I believe he addresses that he knows or knew found out later, whatever, that Kurt was a fan of >> Green Day.

[00:16:52]>> Exactly. Yes. Exactly. Um Yeah. No one cares if he likes Green Day. He likes He loved RM, >> so you know, um we don't all have to like all the same music. So, >> no. And Kurt had really kind of weird taste in music. Um, like I'm not I don't mean that as a disc, but like he it was not, you know, your common everyday >> albums and songs that were his top picks. Yeah.

[00:17:18]>> So, um, he had a very, >> uh, eccentric taste and like it wasn't a straight line like there was from all different types.

[00:17:29]>> So, um, >> totally. Um, somebody said here, "Kurt love Metallica." That's funny that you said that because I was just wondering if you liked Metallica. So very interesting.

[00:17:38]>> He I know he went to at least one of their concerts. Yeah.

[00:17:42]>> Oh, cool. Um Michelle, I've had a guy in the group reach out to me. We're both from New Zealand and want to do our own New Zealand for Kurt podcast. Wanted to reach out to you first for advice.

[00:17:53]Please just send me an email. Yeah, I'm happy to.

[00:17:55]>> That's so cool.

[00:17:55]>> to help um anything I can do to help. So uh >> he also loved ABBA. Yeah. I mean, you know, he loved the Vaselines and just like >> I was just reading that.

[00:18:07]>> I mean, >> who cares?

[00:18:09]>> Yeah.

[00:18:10]>> You know, but like uh >> he loved he loved punk music. He loved pop music. He loved a little bit, you know, like >> Yes, exactly. I don't know why.

[00:18:21]>> Why is this a thing? Who cares if Kurt liked Green? I I don't know why this is such a controversial topic. So, the thing I was talking about Billy Joe Johnson and the case that Brian did and I was talking about how you and I would would approach that because it's we can't just, you know, in the new podcast where we're doing Creepy Sleepy Club and we're kind of sitting in our pajamas and talking about >> cases, >> whatever we want. Yeah.

[00:18:45]>> I don't know how we would do that with Billy Joe Johnson because it's so I mean, every case is heartbreaking, but this one is so particularly >> poignant in the times that we're living in. I just don't know how he would do it. And then I just sort of tried to lighten the mood by switching the subject to saying Billy Joe and and saying how why I think Billy Joe is standing up for Courtney because >> Courtney said that Kurt loved Green and that is probably now you see the through line and then we got Yes. Um, I did want to say somebody was talking about ABBA and um, I met Fat Mike in San Francisco at an ABBA cover band show and um, he was very nice.

[00:19:27]>> I I love that.

[00:19:28]>> Yeah, he was really nice. I mean, now I know like I don't want to reach out to him and be like, "Hey, I'm the girl who's trying to get the Cabain case reopened because I feel like I might end up hating no effects and I don't really want that." But yes, they um he was at an ABBA like an ABBA cover band show and u yeah nice guy.

[00:19:47]>> Arrow C513 I'm hoping that means you're another Cincinnati person but um is asking who is Billy Joe Johnson and then Armstrong question. So, yeah. Do you want to just give the >> Yeah, Billy Joe Johnson is a is a was an African-American boy who was dating a white woman and he was murdered, brutally murdered in the South in 2008. And Brian did a a peer-reviewed published paper on it. And it's still the coroner was scared for her life because she was being threatened by people uh the people who did it. And so she put that it was a suicide >> and um she wanted to write that it was a homicide. It was very clearly a homicide and that is still just sitting out in the ether. No one has been and Billy Joe >> Johnson's mom died of heartbreak.

[00:20:40]>> So um >> I didn't know that. That just makes it a million times worse.

[00:20:45]>> Yeah.

[00:20:46]>> What was done to him was bad enough. I mean, and especially in 2008, like that's the kind of [ __ ] that was happening back in like the [ __ ] 50s and 60s and [ __ ] like with the Well, I probably shouldn't say that word, but you know what I mean, with what they were doing to >> Yeah.

[00:21:01]>> It's hor horrible. And it's like, you know, >> I don't know what the proper form is to even talk about that.

[00:21:09]>> I >> It can't be a You know, you and I tend to try to, you know, we use humor as levity and we try to joke about [ __ ] to to get through it.

[00:21:18]Yeah. And most of us with that kind of sense of humor tend to do that. So I'm trying to because Brian, I think, would like more eyes on the case and he would like more people to know what happened.

[00:21:27]>> And so how do we do that? You know, that's us sort of trying to figure out.

[00:21:32]I I think the best way that we could do it and to give it um I don't know the most respect and do it the most justice would be probably to do it with Brian and to just have it be factual, just straight. You're right.

[00:21:48]This is what happens and you know, maybe opinions and stuff. Yeah. But just try and be as straightforward >> and um considerate as possible. Um >> yeah. and um let us know what you think if that's something you'd be interested in watching. The only other time we've done something that wasn't about Kurt was on the John Lennin um uh on the was when we did the John Lennin one with um >> with the author.

[00:22:16]>> Um and I did that one because I felt like he knew what it was like to be someone who was fighting a narrative that was so baked into our culture. And I thought that was really interesting because I he and I sort of vibed in that way. And I just thought he was so intelligent and Kurt loved John Lennin and I thought that a lot of us do too.

[00:22:35]Um, and so I thought that was interesting.

[00:22:38]Um, okay. So, what are we? A big bunch of flowers for your work. Thank you so much. Um, and uh, you guys are doing such a good job. I feel like someone should thank you guys. I'm tearing up a little bit today. Thank you. Um, it's always uh you and your families for their sacrifices. Um, I think my dog would would uh love if you sent her some cookies for her many many sacrifices.

[00:23:04]Um, but yeah, it's it's definitely, you know, I lost a friend uh recently over the case and um >> yeah, >> just things keep happening that I couldn't imagine would happen. You know, I know Rachel, you're kind of going through something similar in your life. And I I don't I I mean, only what you want to talk about.

[00:23:27]I don't know how much of that is related to the case.

[00:23:30]>> You know, I think these problems >> are deeper than just the case, but then the case maybe enhances them.

[00:23:37]>> I I think it definitely um my marriage is basically falling apart. I'll just I'll say that. Um and it's obvious I don't it's not caused the issues. Um but it definitely exacerbated um issues that were already there. I will say that. Um and it it basically got to a point of like me having to take a giant step back to try and make things work to appease my spouse um by not spending so much time talking to all of you and working on the case. And even when I did that, it still wasn't enough time. So like it just um but yeah, I mean it's, you know, it's definitely taken it out of my life as well. Not nearly to the same extent as yours, I know, but um it's certainly affected. Yeah.

[00:24:35]>> So for those of you who um you know, it's I think one of the reasons I get so [ __ ] angry when people are like, "You're just doing this to make money."

[00:24:43]And it's like I will I've shown receipts on on Facebook, but it's like we don't make anything. And our most of our families are like, why are you [ __ ] doing this? You know, I think there's a point where some people could have seen us doing it until we took things to the Seattle police. And it's like, well, what the Seattle police said no, so I'm going to quit. Like, I can't I'm not that person, right? So, it's like that's just not going to happen. But and I said to Rachel the other day, I was like, "So, what if this is it? What if we have our peer-reviewed paper out and we do our podcast and we get to people and we've changed a lot of minds? I know that, you know, when when uh papers have done sort of polls that are I mean, they're not obviously official, but you know, we a lot of people now know that it was a homicide." And that warms my heart. And I said to Rachel, like, is that will you be okay with that? And um what was your response?

[00:25:41]>> Um basically no. But also I mean like if that's if the best that we can do is make it known to everybody unequivocally that this is what happened. The police just are refusing to do their jobs. Um, I, you know, we'll spend the rest of your life and then the rest of my life and, you know, who knows will pick up the torch when I die, but the rest of our lives just making sure that it's always known, >> uh, what the truth is and fighting for because obviously, you know, the the C-word is going to die and blah blah blah. So, um, but just fighting for Kurt and the truth and making sure that that is never >> buried again or twisted or lied about or um, so that's kind of where I'm at with it.

[00:26:31]>> So, there was uh, there's somebody who had been messaging me and a good friend of his um, was talking about how we hate Courtney because we're misogynists.

[00:26:41]Kurt, >> you know, Kurt was a rapist and a predator.

[00:26:45]And uh and so I I literally I can't tell you guys how much I [ __ ] hate that Chris Novaselic was a part of that and didn't stand up for >> for what he knows is not true. He was [ __ ] there. He knows it was fiction.

[00:27:01]And this person is trying to explain to their friend like, "No, it was fiction."

[00:27:04]And they're like, "Well, how do you know?" Because the other story he wrote right by it was about Chuck Taylor being a serial killer.

[00:27:11]>> An absolute [ __ ] [ __ ] you know.

[00:27:13]Well, it's I their all of their comments were very much like I read three articles so I know everything >> and it's like we've literally spent how many hours and hours and [ __ ] hours >> looking at reading studying every case and every angle of each of the important person people in this case >> like no It's so >> and it's also like the media really that that's that's your proof that she's just some victim that you know that we're misogynists and she's some victim that's misunderstood.

[00:27:53]>> Look at >> talk to literally anybody. Yeah, literally anybody.

[00:27:56]>> Look at all the lawsuits against her.

[00:27:58]you know, all you have to do like sometimes I'll be arguing with like an AI model like I'll use Gemini or something and it'll be like well blah blah blah blah blah and then I'm like okay but like Google the court cases and then so the other day I was talking to like Claude about the letters that Courtney had her lawyer send to try to get the evidence destroyed and the AI would not believe me and I'm like oh for [ __ ] sake so I think I got you to send me the copies of the letters and I'm like so I put them back in and I'm like here and it's like Oh, so it's like even the AI models that are like utilized in Google, none of the stuff comes up and that's something we're really working on too is so we have a well we have a few websites that we pay for and so what we really want to do is you know when we get a little bit of extra money we want the to do the SEO on the website so that when somebody is searching for Courtney these things come up because the lawsuits are out there the police reports are out there the stories of her abuse and um you know the punishment that she has done to people who have wronged her. It's all out there, but nobody people just don't know it. And I know people are myopic. Lots of people like lots of the comments are bots, >> but people need to like we've had numerous people tell us, "I used to love whole and then I found out that she heard animals."

[00:29:14]>> Well, >> and that was that, right? And that's the thing is it's like so many people only look at what the media says, what she says, the interviews, things like they don't look at, they don't search her.

[00:29:27]They don't look deeper. They don't look into >> who she actually is. They just believe the image that they're being given.

[00:29:34]>> Yeah.

[00:29:35]>> Like like, oh yeah, she's really going to tell you about all the animals that she killed and all the people that she beat up and all the she's not going to do that. She's going to pretend to be the best version of whatever.

[00:29:47]>> Yeah.

[00:29:47]>> To get you to like and support her and buy her effing albums and [ __ ] >> Of course. I know. It's so ridiculous.

[00:29:55]Um uh sorry, Carlos had a couple questions.

[00:29:58]I think he wanted to know about the credit card. I'd like to know what you think about that, Rachel. After Kurt died, the house was spotless, but there's no way they could have gotten all the blood out wherever he was if he was shot in the house. His blood is there somewhere still. Um, and I mean I don't know if he was shot in the house.

[00:30:13]I definitely think he was moved.

[00:30:16]>> Whether he was actually shot in the house, I'm not a 100% sure. Um, >> I I think everything happened in the greenhouse, he was just moved around the greenhouse is my opinion personally. Um, as far as the credit cards go though, um, the credit card, the records that have been pulled and released by Tom Grant and that are part of, uh, like notebook one and all of the released, uh, police files, like the initially released police files, notebook one and notebook two. Um, those are from all of those charges, if you break them down, other than maybe the Delta ones are not from Kurt. there from Calie had a card and so did Courtney um on that account.

[00:31:02]Um so I don't know what happened to his copy of that card. Um he could have thrown it away after it got declined so many times or something, you know, I don't know. Um but yeah, it's never been found. I do know that when um Courtney was arrested in LA um just before his body like what was I think it was the day before um for the paraphernalia and the uh prescription pad and all of that that ended up just getting dropped. Um she had in her possession a credit card in his name.

[00:31:39]So I believe that was her copy of um the credit card on that account that those records are from. Um because there's also things like um I think it's like $1,500 and then another $1,500 and like one is over the phone and one is in person. Um and then she talks later about how she just bought herself a Macintosh computer. Um, so like that's clearly that I don't remember exactly how it's listed on the thing, but like the store that's listed is clear like that's what it was is that she put down like a half payment deposit over the phone and then went to go and pick it up and the rest. Um, so things like that and then, you know, obviously numerous attempts at cash pools for drugs, Cali.

[00:32:25]Um, things like that and trying to um buy Jessica Hopper a flight home, >> you know, things like that. So, um, yeah, that's that's the credit card. I won't keep rambling. Sorry.

[00:32:41]>> Uh, somebody said here, I read how she treated Victoria Clark, Shane McGawan's wife. It was shocking. Victoria said she went on tour with Nirvana. Maybe Courtney was jealous of her. Abso fuckingutely. Courtney seemed to, and this is not me making a a statement about who I think is attractive or not attractive, but I think if Courtney thought that you were even remotely attractive as a woman, >> she would she viewed you as a you were a threat. Um, you know, there were I think when she told Kurt to bring Calamity Jane on, and this is not me, dec trying to play like who's more attractive than who, but I think they weren't probably considered traditionally attractive in that sense.

[00:33:23]And then I think they um I believe, >> you know, they weren't straight. So I think that the the she wasn't threatened by them, you know, in any way.

[00:33:34]>> So her telling Kurt he could bring Calamity Jane on makes perfect sense. Or even saying that um you know, he could bring Shonen Knife. I mean, those are all beautiful women, but you know, the the language barrier is there. So, I think she probably wasn't threatened simply because she didn't feel like Kurt would fall in love with somebody >> who, you know, who who maybe couldn't communicate with him in the way that, you know, somebody who speaks English first language could.

[00:33:58]>> Um, so yeah, I think that she genuinely is envious of anyone she feels >> could even be remotely, you know, >> uh, Kurt could could find any sort of kinship with.

[00:34:10]>> Yeah. No, she tried to um turn every either turn every girl against him or turn him against her. Um >> Yeah, exactly.

[00:34:19]>> Every single time. Um like even friends that he had from Olympia and stuff from before he ever even met her.

[00:34:25]>> Yeah.

[00:34:26]>> Um things like that. It just Yeah. Um Oh yeah. She was threatened by Kristen big time. She said horrible things to Kristen just for looking at Kurt in a way that she thought was inappropriate.

[00:34:39]like get over yourself. Um >> anybody who was talented and you know I mean Courtney has has nothing. She's a [ __ ] loser. you know, she can't sing, she can't play. Like, >> well, she's really insecure. And that's part of it >> is that she knows that, you know, without all the surgery and this and the that, she's not super attractive.

[00:35:04]>> And she takes that out on >> every other girl that she knows as being either attractive or more attractive than her, especially.

[00:35:13]>> Um, >> which is everyone, every human being that walks this earth, literally, >> you know. So, there's that. Um, >> and >> somebody asked, "Will Jessica Hopper do any interviews?" Um, no, she will not.

[00:35:32]>> Well, she's I mean, Courtney gave her her entire career.

[00:35:36]>> I think you're back. Talk.

[00:35:38]>> Oh, okay. Can you hear me?

[00:35:41]>> Yeah.

[00:35:41]>> Okay.

[00:35:42]>> Um >> Um, beautiful.

[00:35:45]>> Yeah. Her treatment of Mary Lou Lord was just [ __ ] beyond disgusting. And I don't understand if nobody was there to stick up for Mary. I I don't understand why any of that was even allowed to happen, but it makes me furious.

[00:36:01]>> Yeah. Um she went like extra ham with Mary Lou Lord. And I think that's because she knew that um Mary Lou and her had been dating Kurt like simultaneously. Um cuz she I mean she she pulled some shy [ __ ] to get Kurt to like choose her to commit to or whatever. Um and so I think that's where that stems from is that she knew that Mary Lou easily could have been the one that had ended up with Kurt.

[00:36:34]>> Um and so she needed to make sure that she did everything in her power to make her as repulsive or scare her off or whatever.

[00:36:43]>> Yeah.

[00:36:44]>> As possible. Yeah, absolutely. Um, yeah, and I mean, you know, I think Mary was such a like is such a gentle, you know, kind soul. It it um it's really sad that she got caught up in in that web because I I think she probably still has a lot of PTSD from all of it. So, um we have not interviewed Mary, but both of us have spoken to her numerous times on the phone. She's very lovely. Um >> she is she's super sweet.

[00:37:12]>> Yeah. And um you know I think too what he saw in her other than I mean I don't think Kurt really cared about an easy lay but like drugs like she did the same thing to Kurt. Yes I know that Kurt tried heroin in ' 87 but I think that she did the same thing to Kurt that she does to everyone else. She gets them hooked on drugs and then uses it to control them. She did it to Francis.

[00:37:37]She's done it to every assistant she's ever had. It's Courtney's MMO, you know.

[00:37:42]Well, there's that and there's it literally talks about in uh Michael Azered's Come as You Are. So, yes, he tried heroin in 87. He admits that. Um but then he it also talks about how when him and Courtney met each other, he was doing um oh, I'm not going to remember what they're called, but some kind of like lowgrade opioid like pills, I think, and like a cough syrup type of deal. and she made fun of him, called it like [ __ ] [ __ ] and whatever. Made fun of him and then introduced him to the good stuff. So yeah, please tell me how she did not encourage him and push him to do the harder stuff and get hooked on it.

[00:38:25]So, that person that person on Facebook um that I was telling you about, you really need I told him he needs to message Rachel because Rachel will give him the actual receipts to argue with his friend who's saying that Kurt is a rapist and a you know, we're misogynists and all of it. So, >> you know, the other thing that really bothers me about like the misogyny tag is like call it sexism. It's not hate.

[00:38:49]You know, it's like to me, we need a different word for like let's not just say that everybody who maybe doesn't think women are equal or misogynist. You know, there's a word sexist for a reason and I'm not one. So, Courtney, >> everyone needs to be held accountable for their actions. Men, women, even children. Like the fact that you know those kids who murdered that little boy in England and they got let out so fast and >> Yes.

[00:39:13]>> I think we're not even legally allowed to talk about them because they're under like protection. I don't think they ever should have been let out. I don't give a [ __ ] that they were three years old.

[00:39:21]What they did to that kid was so disgusting.

[00:39:23]>> Oh. Um well, and in terms of Courtney, I honestly I think it's sexist that she should be cut slack because she's a woman, that she shouldn't be held to the same [ __ ] standards.

[00:39:34]>> Yeah.

[00:39:34]>> Um >> agreed.

[00:39:36]>> Like, look at her actions, not her gender. Like, let's stop getting hung up on the fact that she's a woman. Look at who she is as a person, how she treats people, what she does, the choices she makes.

[00:39:48]>> Exactly.

[00:39:49]>> That's what's objected to.

[00:39:51]>> Yeah. Exactly. Of course. It's ridiculous. Yeah.

[00:39:54]>> Um Okay. I'd love to know what happened when Courtney Love was on a date with Jeff Buckley. Oh.

[00:40:01]Um I don't know. I I did a big sigh because I recently have found out more about who Jeff Buckley is and he's seems also to be a very sensitive, kind person and that makes me very upset that she would go after him, but of course she would. Um, >> could you explain about >> Yeah, I'm not sure either. I'll ask around though. Um, could you explain about the nanny for Francis? What she was witnessing? Do you know what they're asking about? Hattie.

[00:40:32]Is that what they're talking about?

[00:40:33]>> Could be. I think somebody did say before they were talking about Hattie before and about the will talk.

[00:40:39]>> Um yeah. So essentially all we know she did an interview um kind of like an impromptu private like they left a note on Nick Broomsfield car like if you want to know more call us and then met in like this basement apartment thing. Um cuz she was scared. Um, and it was a friend of hers initially that had reached out and got and was talking to Nick and then she got Haddie to come down um and said that, you know, like she was going to try but that Hadtie was scared. Um, so she was I think my understanding is that she worked for them like a couple different times like there was a period earlier on um because there is one of the police reports from I believe it's 93 that um she's listed as being there um at the house as like a witness. Um but I don't believe she worked continuously through that whole time frame um cuz that would have been like six or seven months something like that. But I could be that's my assumption. I don't that part I don't know for sure, but I do know that she was the nanny that was there at the house um regularly the last couple weeks of um Kurt's life, like the last month in particular. And she um said very specifically that there was too much will talk for her liking um and that it wasn't Kurt, that it was Courtney that kept bringing it up. Um, of course, >> and she also said that he was a better father than he was allowed to be. Um, like Courtney wouldn't let him um be a good dad >> to Francis.

[00:42:17]>> Um, and she also recalled something about like he came home from a tour and that like normally when he would come up, Francis would be like, "Oh, daddy, daddy." And like reach for him. And at that time, she didn't do that. she stayed in I think it was Callie's arms or something like that. Um and that that just broke his heart and that's um that she thought from that that's why he didn't want to tour or anything anymore. He wanted to be with his daughter and raise his daughter.

[00:42:45]>> And we had reached out to Hattie um and she was willing to speak to us. And um then somebody who is literally insane started also messaging her at the same time and threatening her. Not somebody on Courtney's camp, somebody who pretends they want justice for Kurt. Um and then she completely lost. I mean, she was right, I think, to do that. She stopped talking to everybody. So, >> um yeah, Courtney says she turned down Liam Gallagher because he looked like a peasant. Yeah. Right.

[00:43:20]Yeah, I'm sure she turned down Liam.

[00:43:23]>> Uhhuh. Of course.

[00:43:25]>> Yeah. She also claimed at a concert that she [ __ ] Brad Pitt. Yeah, let me tell you. Sure that really happened.

[00:43:31]>> And I will say that I really think that the only person who has sex with Courtney is somebody who wants to be where Kurt was genuinely. They love Kurt and they just want to experience what Kurt experienced.

[00:43:44]>> Sorry. It's just >> she's too gross, too icky.

[00:43:49]Just no. I don't buy it for a second.

[00:43:52]>> She looks like she's dirty and like even when she's clean and sparkling and like all glammed up on the red carpet, she just exudes.

[00:44:03]>> Yeah, she's ick. Like a major [ __ ] ick. And I know lots of people will just [ __ ] anything. And that's probably But people like Brad Pitt or Jeff Buckley or or they can get other women. So, you know, we're not talking about people who don't have options. We're talking about people who literally could, you know, and have dated some of the most beautiful women in the world, unless they're slumbing it for >> for fun, you know.

[00:44:27]>> Is Jeff Buckley the one that she dated for a while?

[00:44:32]>> I believe so. Yes. Um, it said here, I think they went on one date.

[00:44:37]>> Oh, then maybe that's not because the guy I'm thinking of like she dated for a decent amount of time. Um, >> okay. So, no, I don't think that >> was um I will ne never forget or forgive how she treated my aunt and cousin. Um, if you want to post more info on that, that would be very interesting. If you don't know that story, thank you so much, Leanne and Will for the uh super chats.

[00:45:01]We love you so much. Um, she went on a date with Jeff Buckley and apparently had media ready to get the pictures of them out.

[00:45:08]>> Oh, yes. Thank those. Sorry.

[00:45:10]>> Okay. No, we're we're still catching up, I think. Um, are people seeing my comments? Because there's that's a pretty cool thing and I'm surprised no one's making a comment back about it. Okay, I might have missed it. Carlos, can you just um can you pop it in again so we can see it? It's so hard to to talk and keep up with all the comments and then as we're like reading comments, I feel like that's really boring for people to just like watch us read comments. Um, so and you know, I think the Jeff Buckley thing is again very similar to her calling um the paparazzi in Rome and making sure that they were there for when they moved Kurt to the other hospital. You know, she will never lose an opportunity to, you know, to to be um to be seen. Um so some people are asking, so what are we doing now? So the SPD said no and I mean we cannot physically force them to do anything. Um Rachel, do you want to talk a little bit about what we're doing? And then I want to reiterate what happened when we went inside the SPD because somebody asked a little earlier whether they um whether they are biased because it's Kurt and I want to speak to that um in a minute. So if you want to let people know kind of what we're working on. We're working on a I mean without too many details so the hate group doesn't um and I'll tell you something else about that in a hot second here. I just um it's been a day so I just have to blow my nose so go ahead.

[00:46:36]>> No, you're fine. Um so basically we w we are working on um trying to see a way around um the SPD um looking at different angles trying to gather information um see what our different options are and what makes the most sense um where there might be a route that we could take. um and basically just kind of gathering as much information as we can to um continue pushing um forward. And then um we're also looking into working on um another paper um and trying to figure out exactly the parameters of that and um the route that we want to go with that and all of what we would be including. Um, but those are kind of the two the two biggies. And then of course I am still painfully slowly because it is so just monotonous and timeconuming working on the timeline. Um, so I promise that's still going. It's not disappeared and it will eventually be available for everybody uh to read through. Um, but so those are kind of I think the three biggies that we've got um still in the works. And there are options, I think, for a few different peer-reviewed papers. And the reason that we're doing that is because it's like, yeah, no, they didn't look at our original evidence. But so when we now have another expert coming out and saying like, I agree with this. This is a companion uh peer-reviewed published paper to the original one. Now we get more media.

[00:48:13]>> Now we get more people coming out and going, well, you know, oh, we don't like where the the first one was published.

[00:48:18]And we've already explained why we went that route with Brian, but so okay, fine.

[00:48:23]I know it's it's so stupid. They don't engage with the evidence as usual. They just sit around, you know, calling me names or, you know, complaining about where Oh, complaining that Brian was a marine biologist before he moved into uh crime scene reconstruction. As if that means anything. He's a [ __ ] scientist, you know.

[00:48:41]>> I Yeah.

[00:48:43]But uh >> yes but so we are so we're working on um at least one peer-reviewed paper once I'm done my um the course that I'm taking on Destine investigation I will be um writing something up on that as well and then so somebody asked was Kurt bias or or were the cops biased yes um they were but I don't think >> I don't think it would have mattered who we brought whose case we brought in so you know we bring in this 200 100page 181 page binder. We give one to everyone in the room. We bring in a thumb drive.

[00:49:18]They set up a screen so that we could um so that they can watch the gun and how the gun works. And we had Mike on there showing how the gun works. Uh Chief Barnes says as the gun he's watching this, right? And as the gun will not eject a shell because the Mike's hand is on the forward barrel, he goes, "Well, of course it won't eject a shell. If there's anything there, it's going to stop it from from ejecting."

[00:49:47]>> Exactly.

[00:49:48]>> Please explain to me. Yeah.

[00:49:50]>> Like Chief Barnes knows. So his excuse was, "Well, if we reopen this case, we have to reopen every other case where somebody says their loved one was murdered instead of took their own life." And I literally turned to him and said, "If they bring in evidence proving it was a homicide, then that's your job." You know, I mean that.

[00:50:11]And then the other thing he said was, "Well, I don't know if we have any of the evidence." So, we are waiting on our foyer to find out what evidence they still have. Um, and we will find out whether or not because it was really simple. You know, our first step was check Curt's jeans.

[00:50:26]>> Is it blood on his jeans? Because if it is on that mark on the bottom of his jeans, it's a homicide. But they're now claiming they don't have the jeans. I think they do have them. I because we've never heard of them giving the clothing back, right?

[00:50:40]>> No.

[00:50:40]>> And when we did the one on the on Courtney's lawyers demanding all the evidence back it they didn't. So, I mean, they may have given her the the clothing back, but I think they still have it. We know they still have the the slides, the autopsy photos, all of those. I think his death could be proven a homicide without anything that the cops have, just with what the medical examiner and the Washington state lab have. Um, but that's what we're waiting on. So, we need the media to help. I know we got a huge amount of media in January and the [ __ ] news cycle just like doesn't matter. Epstein's one week, the next week it's I mean, we're in 12 wars.

[00:51:18]>> No one pays attention to anything. If this was 10 years ago, I think that getting the cover of the Seattle Times, we would have we would have gotten the case reopened.

[00:51:27]>> That would have been Yeah, that would have been all it took. But it's like everybody's so, >> for lack of a better word, off the top of my head, ADHD about it. They're being pulled in so many different directions and nobody's attention is staying where it needs to stay of like, oh [ __ ] look at this, like this, and you know, pumping it up and sharing it and making it this huge thing like it should have been. Um I mean there was a micro version of that but not not nearly what it should have been.

[00:51:55]>> Yeah.

[00:51:55]>> Um and so I think we just keep going, you know, try and get more and >> and we do have things in the work. We have a documentary that is is sort of being that we're working on um we like a real streaming documentary etc. So there are a lot of things that that we're working on. Anybody else noticed lots of AI generated [ __ ] about her seems to be popping up? Yeah. So, there was one the other day that said Dave Gro said it was a suicide because of some letters that they just found.

[00:52:30]>> That thing is so stupid and so clearly fake. And the one about the DNA that they tested proving that Courtney wasn't at the scene. Like, where are you guys coming up with this [ __ ] >> Like, get a life for [ __ ] sake.

[00:52:43]and you know like it's it's like it gets likes and views and people are commenting on it. So I think like if you can um just report it, you know, if it's on Facebook or something, report it as fake news and just try not to interact with it. Hopefully if it doesn't get us any of us Yeah. And don't worry, I'm guilty of being like, "What in the [ __ ] mother?" Like, >> yeah, you stupid [ __ ] Why would you?

[00:53:07]Yeah.

[00:53:08]>> Um so yes. Um, but yeah, tons and tons.

[00:53:12]And yes, I do think it's her little [ __ ] PR company. And notice that it's all these like smaller blogs. Like it's not Rolling Stone isn't writing about her.

[00:53:21]You know, she obviously does not have the money or pull to have a really good PR company now at this point. So, um, and I think once she doesn't pay them in six months, which she will not, they'll stop working for her, obviously.

[00:53:32]>> Well, and it's also like it's PR for Courtney Love. Like I'm sure there's only so many people that are going to be willing to take that on anyway.

[00:53:41]>> Yeah.

[00:53:41]>> Because there's only so much PR that you could even potentially try to believably do.

[00:53:47]>> Yeah.

[00:53:48]>> For Courtney Love.

[00:53:49]>> Yeah. Exactly. Um somebody said, and I'm trying to phrase this so that I don't tell tales out of school, which is literally my MO. I only tell tales out of school.

[00:54:00]Um, so somebody who we were talking to about putting something out said, "Well, at the end of this thing that we do, will Courtney finally admit that she murdered Kurt?"

[00:54:13]>> Like, >> no, probably not. But everybody in Hollywood, and I mean this genuinely, everyone in Hollywood knows that Courtney killed Kurt. There's no doubt about it because this person was like, you know, was they knew exactly what they were talking about and and um a long time sort of Hollywood person.

[00:54:33]Everyone knows. So, you know, >> my my guess is is that she's either never going to cop to it or on her like deathbed, her final words, when nobody can do anything about it or prove that she's not just deluded or whatever, whatever, she's going to finally be like, I killed the [ __ ] You know, some [ __ ] like that.

[00:54:52]>> Um And >> those are the only real options I see.

[00:54:55]>> That thing about don't you see why I had to do it? I honestly think if I was in a room with her and I was kicking her in the shin because I'm 5 foot three and she's a giant. But um you know with my sneakers with razor blades on them and like I really think she would admit to me Michelle I had to do it because of because of Kurt because he was quitting because he was a [ __ ] because she genuinely thinks she had reason to kill him. And I honestly don't even think it would take that much to get it out of her. Like you know how serial killers sometimes will um >> if you go about it the right way. Yeah.

[00:55:30]They like to brag.

[00:55:32]>> They like to brag. And I truly think she would admit to it if you were and like let's say you know one of you guys did um you know that you they didn't know who you were and you were just talking to her and you were just like I mean God Kurt was such an ass. you know, he didn't he didn't he somebody's gonna cut this and say that I'm saying this about Kurt, but anyways, Kurt was such a dick, you know, he was didn't want to play Laooi, didn't want to play the game.

[00:55:58]Like, he didn't know what he had. He had it so good and like he had you and you're amazing and look at him. He's just like a whiny like entitled.

[00:56:06]She would totally tell them. Yes. And that's why I had to do it. She told everybody at Lola Palooa. Of course she would, you know.

[00:56:14]>> Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Um um and somebody just commented, >> I'm going to have to look because I don't know if I'm familiar with this interview or not, but um they said Kurt uses the word threatening twice to describe her in the John Savage interview.

[00:56:32]So, I'm gonna have to look um and find that.

[00:56:35]>> Yeah. Um and I mean with it.

[00:56:38]>> Yeah. And and you know, again, we're we're trying to add this all to a collection um which is exposingcourtney.com where we have everything collected. So somebody who may be on the fence just goes and they're just like, "Oh, okay." You know, because it's so hard right now. What do you even search for? Lawsuits against Courtney. You know, it's very difficult if you don't like want to do the deep dives. Um >> there's a picture of Courtney with Elliot Smith. Well, I mean, you know, from what I know, Elliot's girlfriend was very similar to Courtney. Do we know where she was the day Elliot died?

[00:57:12]Courtney specifically, because I have valid questions.

[00:57:15]>> I don't, but we uh might need to look into that.

[00:57:19]>> Yes, exactly. Um Oh, yeah. I think Kurt would absolutely still be here if he hadn't met Courtney. Um >> Oh, undoubtedly he would still be here.

[00:57:28]I guarantee it as much as I can, obviously.

[00:57:31]>> Yeah. Um, somebody said she told Barbara Walter she didn't want to be known as dirty. So, wonderful job, Rachel. Um, I love, you know, it's one thing to cut somebody down. Like, people say [ __ ] about me and it all bothers me. So, it's not like, oh, this is a true thing or something that I feel really bad about about myself. Um, it's like, you know, they'll call me fat and I'm like, well, I know I'm not fat, but that still bothers me. So, it's like, you know, but with Courtney, it's like, oh, >> I really just want to hit the things that I know that like we see you, you know, we know who you are. We know what you are. I think she does not want to be seen through her humanish mask that she wears, you know, to make us think that she's a human being.

[00:58:14]>> Um, is there a way I can message you guys to share my story? I try to do the Facebook thing, but I'm not on Facebook.

[00:58:19]Yes, of course. Uh, it's justice who killed.org work and um I'll put that in the description once we actually get this uploaded on YouTube and please email us and we would be um >> I'll put it in the comments here too.

[00:58:32]Yeah, >> perfect. Um Bonnie, we love you. Um Bonnie, >> Bonnie, I love you. Thank you, Patrick, as well. I just saw that pop up on my phone. I really appreciate it.

[00:58:44]>> Um >> you sent me the link for the John Savage thing.

[00:58:47]>> Oh, perfect. Um, and Monty, um, was also there with us when we went to Seattle, um, to drop the stuff off at the SPD.

[00:58:56]>> And, um, she met Mark and and, um, it was so nice to to have this support system there, you know, before I went into the SPD and or market. I went into the SPD and did all of that. So, well, we literally cuz like we dropped you off and you went to go meet and then her and I went over just right across the street to Starbucks and we're sitting there just like waiting like, "Okay, is she coming? Where is she?" And we literally we saw this guy that we were positive for a split second was Dylan. Like I even I took pictures and like zoomed in and like he would have been like a gigantor version of Dylan because he was massive. Um, but he it was creepy because he was standing like right by the bus and he seemed to be like staring at us and staring at the way you had gone and me and Bonnie are just like, "Oh, fuck."

[00:59:46]>> Okay, I have to Somebody said this, "Not all poor people look like her." Gross.

[00:59:50]Okay, look, I grew up poor.

[00:59:52]>> Don't get me Yeah. Like, we do not. And she grew up rich. I mean, she was fine.

[00:59:57]So, yeah, she's just she's just [ __ ] icky. Um, >> it's her life choices that are the problem.

[01:00:03]>> Exactly. Um, so speaking of Dylan though, um, so there's this guy who walks around where I live here in Canada and John is like, "That guy looks so much like Dylan." And then John always has this joke where Dylan came across to kill us, but he couldn't find us. So he's like, "It's pretty nice here. I'm just going to stay and I'm going to hang." And he's walking around drinking his slurpee just like, "It's all good."

[01:00:25]So it's this very funny. Like, so every time we see him, we're like, "Hey, Dylan." Of course, we don't actually do that, but it's um it's quite funny.

[01:00:32]>> Um, Oh, Bonnie. Oh my god, Ra. I was so relieved when you said, "Wait, Dylan is short."

[01:00:40]>> Cuz we were like, "Oh my god." And then I was like, "Wait, hold on. Dylan was like Curt's height shorter." Okay.

[01:00:46]>> Yes. Oh my god.

[01:00:48]>> Oh, I have a question. What will you do with all these informations? Um, I'm not sure uh any information that we get that's actually like relevant to the case.

[01:00:58]We I mean we keep track of everything but you know unfortunately it's like the only thing that that is gonna move anything is science. We had Joe Burns and because he changed his story we were not able to utilize his statement um >> at the SPD though they do have his name and did not contact him but we said you know this guy was there you never talked to him in the first place. He can tell you everybody who was there um and they have not contacted him. I made sure that the lead detective, Nicole, had all Joe Burn's info and um yeah, they never reached out. Is the SPD receiving large contributions from Courtney? I think that they're just [ __ ] corrupt. as corrupt as they were in 94.

[01:01:38]>> Unfortunately, >> you know, >> um I don't Yeah, I don't I know there's the connection between her and Hartshorn, but I don't think um well, she didn't have the money nor the power to buy off the entire police department in my opinion. Um I think and especially Cameron because I mean it was only just a few years later, not that that long later that he was busted being corrupt.

[01:02:09]>> Um >> yeah, >> and trying to cover up theft of money from a crime scene and [ __ ] like >> Yeah.

[01:02:15]>> Um I think that was just the way he worked. He didn't feel like dealing with it. He probably viewed Kurt as just some junkie and oh suicide so that's it.

[01:02:24]We're not we're not working this one.

[01:02:26]>> Just sew it up. Let's go. 100%. And we know he took home Kurt's gun as a souvenir and he thought it was really funny. So he didn't just like, you know, like yes, he was being lazy, but to add to your point, Ra, I think he he [ __ ] hated Kurt, >> you know, like I I've said it before, like the Dire Strait song from the 80s kids, you know, Money for Nothing and Chicks for Free. that little with the earring and the makeup, you know, like that whole thing about like and of course it's a the song is ironic because they're the dire straits are the ones that is are are the rock stars, but the whole I think that whole thing tells you how um how Cameron felt about Kurt. he thought he was entitled and didn't deserve [ __ ] and uh you know how some of Kurt's family feels about him which is really sad but uh it is um >> so um somebody said uh class action lawsuit >> so the reason we can't do that is because it's really expensive um like hundreds of thousands of dollars and we would need to either be family or to have the families of the copycat >> suicide victims do the lawsuit >> to do that. Yeah. And I think some of the copycats probably would do a lawsuit, but who do we pay? What lawyer do we pay? We don't have $100,000 to do that, >> unfortunately.

[01:03:46]>> Yeah. So, um, if there if a lawyer is out there and wants to take this on, please contact us and we will happily, you know, put, you know, get the families together. But unfortunately, it's a great idea and we can't um, >> we just can't bankroll it.

[01:04:00]>> Yeah, we just can't. Um, Michelle and Rachel, have you tried reaching out to talk to Mary Lang, the Lake Washington house cleaner? Um, I think that that was something we were looking at doing a few years back and could never find her info. So, if anybody has her info, please let me know. Um, and um, yeah, I mean, we are always willing to reach out to anybody. And if any of you um, have an idea and you are like, "Oh, I'm on this person's Instagram." Please feel free to reach out for us and then connect us. we would be happy to talk to anyone. We just don't always have the time or or you know, we're not on everybody's Instagram, etc. So, we just don't always have the time to do it, but we really appreciate it.

[01:04:39]>> So, >> yeah, they don't want to be known as incompetent, >> but it's like and it's like none of them were there in 94, you know?

[01:04:46]>> No. And the the harder that they keep pushing that, oh, we did it right the first time, the more incompetent they look.

[01:04:53]>> Yeah. And the less accountable.

[01:04:55]>> Well, exactly. like they would look better if they just said, "Hey, you know, there is new evidence that was brought in. We're just gonna >> Yeah.

[01:05:02]>> reopen this and have, you know, somebody that's not associated with us take a look and just make sure that everything is accurate."

[01:05:10]>> Yeah.

[01:05:11]>> So that we know that, you know, once and for all blah blah blah.

[01:05:14]>> That would be responsible.

[01:05:17]>> What they should have done is just done it and pretended. I don't know why they didn't. You know, Mark and I were talking about this and and and I think I mean, I won't speak for Mark, but I think there was a sense of like, wow, I don't have any faith in in the authorities anymore, but why they didn't just say, "Sure, we reopened it and we checked and none of your evidence pans out." So, we're kind of surprised they didn't even do that, you know.

[01:05:41]>> Yeah. No, I am too, honestly, because uh that was one of my fears is that that's what we were going to get back is, well, we looked and nope, sorry, none of your [ __ ] tracks.

[01:05:50]>> Yeah. With no receipts. It's like not, you know, no reason.

[01:05:53]>> We're supposed to take their word. Huh.

[01:05:55]>> Yeah. Courtney's probably wearing his jeans as a hat. Mommy said, and I don't know why that struck me as so funny. But it really did. And you know, Rachel and I were talking about how she goes to the scene. Somehow they leave his body there for long enough that Courtney gets to the scene and is walking around Curt's three-day old corpse. And she makes Francis, this one and a half-year-old baby, sit there with her father's rotten corpse and say goodbye. And I can't understand. Of course, that is such a breach of protocol. It's not even >> I mean, if you if you told a good police officer that, I think they would have a heart attack. I know that Neil every time he finds out some new treachery that the SBD allowed he is literally like swearing texting me like what is happening right now? Is this true? And it's like yeah >> but like that the fact that she did that to Francis. I mean I think she's always wanted to punish Francis for some reason.

[01:06:55]>> Maybe Francis >> loved her dad too much. I mean she probably would have punished Francis regardless. Well, and I'm I'm fairly certain that my guess because obviously I wasn't there, but my guess is is that Kurt made it very clear towards the end that um he loved Francis the most. And so I think she probably punished Francis for that.

[01:07:18]>> Um but it's also like [ __ ] that's the way it's supposed to be.

[01:07:21]>> Yeah.

[01:07:22]>> Like who do you want him to love more than his child?

[01:07:26]>> You know exactly who she wants.

[01:07:27]>> Well, I know but it's [ __ ] deluded.

[01:07:30]It's insane. I know.

[01:07:32]>> Like the kids should always come first.

[01:07:34]>> Of course. Yeah. I mean, you know, even with my dog, when my husband puts the dog first, that's the way it should be.

[01:07:41]You put the baby first, you know.

[01:07:44]Absolutely.

[01:07:44]>> Like, please. And then that is how you respect your spouse is by loving your child >> and taking care of them.

[01:07:52]>> Um, is Big John Duncan still ducking an interview? Yes. The last I knew he he put all that stuff for sale on Julian's.

[01:07:59]And >> I don't think it was even Julian's, was it? I think it was a different >> Was it Julian?

[01:08:04]>> Maybe it was. It might have been that other one. Oh, okay. Yeah, you're right.

[01:08:09]The guitar. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:08:11]>> Okay. Um, whatever happened to Tom Grant? Why is he so quiet that we have heard that he has retired?

[01:08:18]>> Yeah. He passed the reigns on to his little blackie and uh that's that. And unfortunately, whatever evidence he has, you know, he supposedly had this evidence doesn't seem to have made it to anywhere that anyone is actually doing anything with it. Did you ever ask Tom Grant why he gave the Rhypnob blister to Dylan, the one he found under the mattress, and gave it to the SPD for evidence and have Curt's urine tested for it?

[01:08:46]>> Yeah, he he didn't. He's never answered that. He just seems to love Dylan for some reason. He is very pro Dylan >> and um I mean he he didn't really do he did so much bless him for the stuff he did right but he also did a lot of things wrong.

[01:09:05]>> Yeah he did. Yep. Um and like I know in the audio you can hear Dylan telling him like oh no those are they're legal.

[01:09:13]They're fine. They're just to help you sleep and blah blah blah. But like >> dude you're there with somebody you know is a junkie and you're just handing him some freaking pills.

[01:09:22]>> Come on. Use your brain.

[01:09:24]>> Exactly. Um, have you ever read the pages about Courtney in the game by Neil Strauss? Have you read that, Rachel?

[01:09:32]>> No.

[01:09:34]>> Um, we will. And also, we're seeing all the sweet comments um about us and and um I'm trying to read the questions so it doesn't sound like all I'm reading is compliments because then, you know, it's like >> um but they do mean a lot. Yes, >> we don't think we're not reading them because they're they're the like the ba the boon for our souls, >> the balm, the salve. Um I'm sure you found a lot more interesting information regarding Kurt's death and the people surrounding the case. What is the most shocking that you are allowed to share?

[01:10:05]>> Wait, say that again. Sorry, I was reading.

[01:10:07]>> Oh. Um so you've learned a lot more interesting information regarding Curt's death and the people surrounding this case from when you started. What is the most shocking thing that you've learned that you're allowed to share?

[01:10:21]So, I think I'll share the the shocking thing to me is again I just always thought of Courtney as like a Well, Rachel, thanks. Um, I always thought of Courtney as just she'll do whatever she wants to get the get to the end of, you know, to to get her end her, you know, she always wanted to be Madonna. Oh, that's so [ __ ] punk rock. Um, but anyways, and so I never realized how much until recently how much I think she genuinely convinced everybody Kurt was better off dead, convinced herself and and really I think didn't portray herself even to the people in her circle as this person who's just willing to take somebody for their money, but that there's something righteous in what she's doing. And I think that's the biggest revelation that I've personally had going from when I started this to thinking like, oh, of course, like we see it on datine all the time. A spouse kills a spouse for money.

[01:11:19]>> Yeah.

[01:11:20]>> But that wasn't Yeah, that was it. But that was not even >> the core of it, I don't think. You know, so there's that. Of course, the part where she would murder Francis's pets has been I knew she was an animal murderer, but I didn't realize the breadth of it. Um >> Yeah. Um, yeah, mine would probably be a tie um between all of the just how much horrible and horrific things Courtney has actually done, not only to Kurt, but to a lot of people. Um, so seeing just like the actual underbelly of who she really is. Um, and then the reality of what actually happened to him. Um because obviously prior to doing this I knew, you know, that there were drugs and a gun involved and blah blah, but knowing that the specifics of how it was done and what he would have gone through and having to imagine what his final moments were probably realistically like, that's been probably the worst for me.

[01:12:28]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. and and the the domestic abuse piece. I mean, you know, that's that's another, >> you know, further to your point, just how much she [ __ ] abused him and then how much she abused that baby. I just can't that >> that baby was so beautiful. I mean, so was he. I just it >> hurts me so [ __ ] much.

[01:12:50]>> Two souls that like one that was ripped away and one that was just ruined and scarred for life. Yeah.

[01:12:56]>> Go.

[01:12:57]>> I know. And fortunately, you know, Francis did the thing Kurt never never was able to do. She got Courtney out of her life. And >> Yeah.

[01:13:05]>> And you know, and uh I I'm so glad that she didn't end up like her father, you know.

[01:13:11]>> Yeah.

[01:13:12]>> Um >> Yeah.

[01:13:13]>> Uh somebody said you should contact Joe Rogan. Um I think, you know, Rogan has talked about it and he still thinks it was a suicide. um if if he would ever like to talk to us, we would.

[01:13:25]>> Also know he's been asked numerous times. Um I was also going to ask you just so that we can I can let her know one way or the other. We were going to bring a guest on, one of the group members.

[01:13:34]>> Yes. Um >> did you want me to go ahead and >> I actually have to leave in a little bit, but I can >> do we want to reschedu?

[01:13:42]>> Yeah, exactly. Sorry, I asked you yesterday and did you get back to me and I missed it? You probably did. Um yeah, let's let's have her on again. Okay, perfect. Um, okay. Uh, oh, hey Harvey.

[01:13:53]Uh, our friend Harvey Oddinger is is out there and and um we love how much, you know, Harvey, interestingly, is the limo driver who took Kurt to the airport and um, you know, so one of the last people to talk to Kurt and it's been very interesting because Harvey's done a lot of research now on his own and and um, this this case really gets to people. It really um a lot of people I think you know you start you start on this case and you just can't let it go, you know.

[01:14:21]So um yeah, it's so sad that so many people know that she did what she did and they don't care and they don't I I get so [ __ ] tired of you. They're scared of her. Like [ __ ] that. Like oh really. And yet like me poor person from Canada does this. Rachel like lives in America where she could like get killed very easily for this and we're out here putting our stupid [ __ ] faces on [ __ ] constantly. I don't want to hear that like Chris Novacelic is scared of her.

[01:14:48]The like seven foot giant who lives out on a farm and has plenty of money to protect himself. I give no [ __ ] >> Like I just I don't you know. So, >> um, >> well, and I also I I think it's a copout more than anything.

[01:15:02]>> It's like some of the smaller people, you know, like the nannies and the the maids and people like that that are probably genuinely scared, the like everyday people like you and I. I I could see if they're scared um and, you know, not really sure what to do. Um, but yeah, as for anybody that knows and knew Kurt and there's no excuse. Fear of Courtney is [ __ ] >> Like, >> yeah, >> [ __ ] >> Yeah, totally.

[01:15:36]>> What was it?

[01:15:37]>> Um, sorry. I let her know that we were going to have to reschedule and she sent me pictures of these cute little things.

[01:15:44]She sent them to you, too. So, um >> Oh, okay. Have a look. Um, somebody said here, um, did, uh, what was the question? Sorry.

[01:15:55]Yeah. A science experiment gone wrong.

[01:15:56]Exactly. Right. Oh, about the 17-year-old boy she punched at a concert. I mean, yeah, she's Who has good things to say about this woman? She's constantly assaulting people.

[01:16:06]>> Billy Corgan, like that's it. Melissa.

[01:16:11]>> Yeah, exactly. Patty, you know, like >> people that her ass. Um, exactly. Uh, Oliver, thank you so much. And to your question, hey ladies from the UK, do you know Chris Todd, the writer investigator? He's the one who helped Joe Burns book. Would you have him on? I did Shane Atwood with Chris uh not that long ago. And um yeah, I'd have Chris on if he if he wanted to come on. Uh I do know Chris. Um, yeah, we I think Chris and I have different sort of opinions on the the specifics as to what happened um to Kurt, but we both, you know, we both know it was a homicide, and I think we're both just about as frustrated with the lack of response from the SPD. Um, I think Chris probably expected it more than I did, but yeah. Um, I'm not really active in the chat. This is my first comment. Thank you guys. Thank you for what you do. Never giving up. Thank you, Kay. Um, and what about Weezer? I really like Weezer. Rivers could not be further from Kurt, and he is not Kurt. But >> literally, I feel like there's so many other people that would be more convincing um as like, oh, this is Kurt.

[01:17:19]He faked his death than really.

[01:17:22]>> Totally. No, I know. So silly. I mean, it's absolutely ridiculous. Not to mention that there are a million pictures of Rivers like playing in bands before Kurt died.

[01:17:33]Um, but yeah, I I uh I tend I do like Weezer. I think they're pretty good. Um, but I'm just a 90s kid. So, the fact that Heart Shore, a not yet licensed pathologist, was allowed to do not one but two high-profile cases with Courtney as a common denominator, not just questionable, my friend, it's [ __ ] up.

[01:17:53]>> It's baffling, honestly, that they let him do that. Um, >> y >> because yeah, like I know especially with Curts, I know less about Kristen's.

[01:18:02]Um, but with Curts, I know supposedly Dr. Ray was like overseeing it the whole time. But it's Hartshorn that signed off on everything. It's Hartshorn that did the autopsy. It's Hartshorn that went to the scene and like did all of the examinations and wrote up everything and Hartshorn did it >> like period. Um, and then Rey just signed off on his work afterwards. Yeah.

[01:18:24]>> Um, and it's I that will never sit right with me.

[01:18:30]>> Can you explain, Rachel, why do you think that they put in the first release that there was an exit wound? They said it was perforating and then Heartshorn changed it to penetrating.

[01:18:41]>> Um, that's a really excellent question. Uh because everybody acts like he just mixed up the words, but uh if you're an ME, even one that's still in school, >> you know the difference between penetrating and perforating. Period.

[01:19:00]>> Um >> because it also happens to just line up so beautifully with what Courtney was telling everybody that he blew his head off.

[01:19:07]>> He blew his [ __ ] head off. Yeah, you're right. Yeah.

[01:19:10]>> Um so I don't know, but it smells bad.

[01:19:15]Yeah, really bad. It really does. Um, and I think that's something we should probably, I think, look into a little bit more, but um, >> Harvey, um, you were talking about someone saying you were on Courtney's payroll, and I hope you don't get too angry at me saying this, but this private investigator, um, and the more I look into how private investigators are viewed and talk to cops and stuff, they're like, private investigators just take photos of like people's cheating stuff. It's like, we do not respect them. in any way, shape, or form. Um, there was a private investigator who demanded that Harvey lie.

[01:19:51]>> He demanded that Harvey um say that uh that Kurt did not tell him that he had the gun. So, this private investigator is the same one who um made the story up about Daniel Climpri that Danny was there and and um and I don't know what this private investigator is up to. I don't know why he is trying to get people to lie. He thinks he's going to take this evidence into the SPD when they've already rebuffed the science. He thinks he's gonna like he's going to base some case on a bunch of lies or that's his case. Michelle, >> I don't know. Oh, right. Sorry. Yes, I forgot. We will bow down to the man in Utah who has never [ __ ] solved one anything and is has been now recorded numerous times asking people to lie on the record. Yep.

[01:20:35]>> Um and uh who should frankly have his license revoked. Um, but yeah, there's just so many people in this space mcking up the works, spreading lies, making, you know, this new thing, the AI slop now too, talking about, and I don't say that lightly because, you know, I think AI is just a tool and it could be used for good or used for [ __ ] but >> you know, saying that, you know, Dave found letters. Exactly. You know, >> Yeah.

[01:21:00]>> Um, >> yeah.

[01:21:01]>> So, another fan commented, but Joe Rogan's Yeah, Joe Rogan's podcast would be amazing if Joe Rogan would have us on. That would be >> amazing.

[01:21:10]>> I fear that he's a little too, >> and I don't mean this derogatorily as it might sound, he's a little too perhaps conservative right-wing to take something like this uh on >> his show.

[01:21:25]>> Yeah.

[01:21:26]>> Uh because he thinks he knows what happened and that's that.

[01:21:30]>> Yeah, absolutely. Um, and okay, so we're just talking about Chris a little bit. Trying to catch up here because I have to head out here to work pretty quick. Um, yeah, the the the Courtney stuff lately has just been wild and we know that she's doing it because of us. And while that, you know, it feels nice to know you're affecting change, it also feels vomitous, if that's a word, to actually see the beast on stuff pretending as if she like, >> oh yeah, >> is a real musician or like has any effect on anything? And then seeing the bots like, "Oh, I'd put my whole two inches in her like numerous times."

[01:22:14]>> Shut up. You choke like not playing. So, >> she's she's also been teasing her autobiography for what years now, but it's supposedly was supposed to be coming out around the same time as that freaking whatever documentary BS thing that she just did. Um, so I don't know that it's actually ever going to come out, but part of me kind of hopes it does because I would love to see what she puts down as her cemented sealed this is my side of the story.

[01:22:42]>> Yeah. Um, but I also wonder if that's part of the reason why she hasn't is because then once she does, she can't keep twisting stuff and changing it to suit.

[01:22:52]>> That's very true.

[01:22:54]>> Yeah.

[01:22:54]>> So, >> yeah, absolutely. Um, higherups involved and is that why the case is so hard to reopen? I tend to just go with the science and the stuff that I can prove.

[01:23:04]So when people go like, "Oh, Geffen or this or that," >> I don't think they're involved. But they may be, >> but I just don't bother going down that far because we're never going to be able to prove it. So I just try to stick with the stuff that we can actually prove.

[01:23:17]But >> and what I said, I I know I said this to you. I can't remember if I said it on the podcast or not yet or like on maybe the last live that we did with Brian, but in my opinion, I think at most Courtney did this, planned it, carried it out, organized and orchestrated the whole thing. And at most once it was done, higherups and people helped her to cover it up >> um and helped her to get away with it.

[01:23:44]>> Yeah. Um, but I don't I don't believe for a second that like Geffen or any of them, anybody hire them or the CIA or I don't believe any of them had anything to do with actually having him killed.

[01:23:57]Um, I I think this boils down to an abusive marriage and he was trying to leave and she would not allow it.

[01:24:03]>> Yeah.

[01:24:04]>> And so she stopped him.

[01:24:05]>> Yeah. just like she didn't want Kristen to leave home, you know, like um so somebody here, Scorpio 27, who I have an inkling might be a friend of mine, but I'm not 100% sure, says Chris is not scared of Courtney. He's scared of his wife who doesn't want the drama. Okay, now that tracks for me. That makes some sense.

[01:24:24]>> Yeah.

[01:24:25]>> The friend who I think this may be, if it is, hi. Um also has told me some stuff just about their rel No. Um, I I won't go into it too much, but yes, that that would make sense to me. I mean, happy wife, happy life, but you know, I don't know how people are able to sleep knowing that kids still take their lives because Kirk did. That's the part I >> And maybe they try not to think about it. I don't know.

[01:24:49]>> No. And I I think so many of these people are living so deeply in denial and want to take like what Kurt said during interviews and stuff and like, well, that's how he felt and that's gospel. As if somebody actively being abused at home would ever talk about that [ __ ] interview.

[01:25:09]>> Yeah.

[01:25:10]>> As if they would ever even hint at it.

[01:25:13]Of course they're going to pretend like their wife is the greatest thing in the world and that they're so happily married and they know what's going to happen to them if they don't stick to that story.

[01:25:22]>> Yeah, of course.

[01:25:23]>> Like it's you have to look at the stuff that was not put out for public consumption. That's where you're going to find proof of what's happening, the witnesses, >> things like that. Like it's but nobody will put in the time or the effort to do that.

[01:25:38]>> No. So they just >> that's that.

[01:25:43]>> Yeah. And you know uh and I don't think this is a a secret Neil wouldn't want me to tell but when they did when Courtney called in and said that there was domestic abuse and and one of the ones I think it was the one six months before like with the orange juice where the SPD came. The SPD records those calls and as they listen to the person talking they determine if that person doesn't want to press charges they determine whether they think that that person is actually in distress and they did not think that that person was in distress at all which was proven by the by the police report.

[01:26:14]Um, so there was no universe where anyone ever believed that Courtney was actually in any kind of trouble from, >> you know.

[01:26:22]>> Well, because I want to say that the friend that that was one of her examples is that, you know, Kurt was arrested for domestic violence and that, you know, it's been twisted and spun and he's the victim and blah blah blah. He was the victim. She attacked him. He defended himself and she even admitted later, well, one she refused to testify against him and then literally admitted later that she had cut herself.

[01:26:47]>> Like, >> it's unbelievable. Yeah, >> that was not Kurt.

[01:26:52]>> Yeah, of course.

[01:26:53]>> And it's also like if he's such a woman beater and a this and a that and blah blah blah, how come every other girl he's ever dated has never >> Absolutely. How come he's looked out for and stuck up for women and women's rights and >> things like that over and over and over at Nauseium? Like >> exactly. I know. It It's unbelievable.

[01:27:15]Um Kitty, hey Kitty, um who we also met in Seattle, I'm getting stocked on Instagram now for standing up for Kurt and posting justice for Kurt on every post on Courtney's pages. I'll continue to post on her page regardless. And um yeah, you know, that's >> yeah, >> that's uh you know, that's all we can do. I mean, we are doing other stuff. Um but you know, I I really hope that every person who my my sincere hope is that Courtney realizes none of us are ever going away and then she just either stops trying to make people think that she is this like misunderstood rockstar amazing beautiful mother human being um and just [ __ ] off. I mean, wouldn't it be great if she just like confessed because she couldn't take it anymore? We don't think that's gonna happen.

[01:28:02]>> Maybe we should take a trip to London and have a have a little one-on-one conversation. Just a conversation.

[01:28:09]>> Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Um, and Chris Frederickson, thank you so much.

[01:28:14]What kind of truth are they admitting?

[01:28:15]Well, anything they are selling magazines, really not the truth. What is really the truth? The truth is just a plain picture. This was after 9/11. Um I mean you know again yeah the media we can't trust [ __ ] that they say and they you know >> um we do have obviously like we have some great media who Alex who who has written articles about us um and you know we have some some really uh really great people who have who have helped get this story out but otherwise most of them don't care. They give no [ __ ] And um so we're lucky that we've even gotten as much media as we can, but hopefully the next papers that we put out will um you know, we'll again >> show we're not going anywhere. We'll keep writing. We'll we'll keep getting peer-reviewed published papers until you do something. So >> Oh, absolutely. And I think the expert that we're going to have on the new one, fingers crossed, um yeah, will really make a world of difference.

[01:29:10]>> Yeah. Um, >> nobody can talk about I think the the the publication we'll get it into will be not able the [ __ ] that they used to to try to discredit this paper they won't have on the next one. So, >> right.

[01:29:24]>> Um, so yeah.

[01:29:26]>> Um, okay. I am going to head to work and um, oh also, hi Stacy reminded me of my other journalist friend Stacy from the States who did an incredible job with so many art. I started to say and I was like maybe you're not saying her for a reason.

[01:29:40]>> Oh yeah. No, no, no. I literally based on her name for like 5 seconds. I was like Shelly. Then I was like Stacy and then this beautiful Stacy just me.

[01:29:49]>> Um cuz I mean in my opinion I know that the Sun article was first and then I promise I will let you go. Um, I know the Sun article was first behind the payw wall and all of that and so I know that caused a cluster and blah blah blah, but the Daily Mail that was the explosion because I mean once the Daily Mail came out with it and that was Stacy, >> it was everywhere.

[01:30:10]>> Um, and so that was what really kicked us off and um, so we need another one of those.

[01:30:16]>> Yeah, exactly. Right.

[01:30:18]>> And we'll get there.

[01:30:19]>> Oh, and also Cam um, hey, I will text you. I did ask Mark what you wanted me to ask him and I will text you back what it is. Sorry it's been crazy busy and um yeah, we'll keep in touch. Okay, thank you so much everyone who came.

[01:30:34]>> Yeah, if you want us to do these like once a month, just kind of let us know in the comments. Um and yes, we know Barry Don again. He we had him on the podcast years ago. He's awesome. Um and yeah, so if you want us to do more of these, let us know and we'll try to do them at different times so that we can get different people here. Um, and uh, yeah, we love you guys. Thank you so much.

[01:30:54]>> Thank you. Have a good rest of your day or night.

[01:30:56]>> Yes, you too, babe. Okay, bye >> bye.

[01:31:02]Okay.