Behind the Badge - Cris Ortiz

Added: 2026-06-03

[00:00:00]People [music] [music] get excited about buying a new vehicle and they go online and they see all these [music] colors, but then they go to the dealership and they're like, "No, sir. We don't have that one. That one sold out or whatever. [snorts] >> It's going to take two months to get this color if you want to wait. You know, we have to order whatever." So, >> and then if you want like the the the [snorts] interior, if if you want it to be this color that man, you have to wait. So >> yeah, [clears throat] >> it's better just to go and see what they have.

[00:00:31]>> Yeah.

[00:00:32]>> Anyway, >> Chris Ortiz, welcome to my podcast, man.

[00:00:39]>> Thank you.

[00:00:39]>> Thank you for being here, man.

[00:00:40]>> Thank you for having me.

[00:00:41]>> I do appreciate your time, man.

[00:00:43]>> It's good to be here.

[00:00:44]>> So, all right, let's let's see how can we can start this conversation, man. Um, >> tell me if I'm right or wrong. You spent a total of 29 years with the Bronswell Police Department.

[00:00:55]>> Yeah, a little over 29.

[00:00:56]>> Yeah. And out of that, how many patrol?

[00:00:58]How many investigations?

[00:00:59]>> Uh did uh 20 years as an investigator?

[00:01:02]>> Okay.

[00:01:03]>> Yeah.

[00:01:04]>> And the the other nine years was was that patrol >> or the division? Just just patrol.

[00:01:09]>> Yeah, >> man. Nine years of patrolling >> switching every every what what is what was it back then? Every month, every two months.

[00:01:16]>> Well, actually my career started pretty cool because >> you know you joined PD just like any agency.

[00:01:22]>> What year was this?

[00:01:24]>> 89. September 89. 1989.

[00:01:26]>> Yeah. You weren't born yet. [laughter] >> No, I was born I was I was 8 years old, man. I was born in ' 81.

[00:01:32]>> Okay.

[00:01:32]>> So, yeah.

[00:01:33]>> So, anyway, um it started off pretty good cuz on that one year probation, which all agencies have that I'm assuming all agencies do.

[00:01:40]>> Yeah.

[00:01:41]>> And u So, but I'll just start off like this.

[00:01:45]>> Yeah. You know, it seems like in the beginning of my life, there's a lot of trials and hard things that I went through and stuff and then all of a sudden >> everything just became real easy and everything was just falling in my lap. I mean, everything that I mean, I had to work, >> you know, but it seemed like every time I turned around something good was happening, you know. Mhm.

[00:02:05]>> Are you talking about the transition like from high school into into started work like your life now as a professional or >> No, I'm talking about when I was young, real young. Okay. Middle school, all that stuff.

[00:02:15]>> Yeah.

[00:02:15]>> There was a lot of stuff that I was going through and >> hard times and uh >> tough trials. There were tough trials and uh and um >> I mean I had a good life. I don't want anybody to think that my parents my parents were the best.

[00:02:27]>> Yeah.

[00:02:27]>> But me personally, you know.

[00:02:29]>> Yeah. And uh so after I guess when I was about like 20 >> 21 about 20 maybe even 19. So those tough years were the early early years and after that >> everything that I started doing >> I don't want to say turn to gold but it pretty much did.

[00:02:49]>> Yeah.

[00:02:49]>> My life everything was lighting up.

[00:02:51]>> Everything was like happening you know I used to be I was a musician. My mom said there's a lot lot of musicians.

[00:02:56]>> And so I started playing when I was 15 years old, you know.

[00:02:59]>> Yeah.

[00:02:59]>> And the clubs and stuff like that, you know. Yeah.

[00:03:01]>> And then so when I was 19, I got in this band that >> we had a lot of we had a lot of success.

[00:03:06]We a lot of albums.

[00:03:07]>> I I I think I seen a couple of uh CDs or videos on on YouTube from back in the day.

[00:03:12]>> They're out there that Gilbert shows.

[00:03:14]>> So the reason I bring that up is because there's a lot of musicians that are like >> a hundred times better than me, you know.

[00:03:19]>> Yeah. And but I got in there and I had success, >> you know, and a song that I wrote song of the year. So like everything that I did kind of like >> song of the year.

[00:03:28]>> Yeah. One of my songs turn one song of the year. But anyway, so when I joined PD >> that year of probation like right off the bat like in my first my first after a week Yeah.

[00:03:41]>> maybe two weeks that stuff just I mean like big cases were falling in my lap.

[00:03:44]>> Yeah.

[00:03:45]>> Big cases. And so >> as a patrol officer >> as a patrol officer I was still on the training phase FTO >> and uh so I hadn't finished my year probation and the chief I get a dispatcher. Hey the chief wants to see in his office like oh man I haven't finished probation man am I going to get fired or what? So I go up there and he goes hey um been watching you. You're doing really good this and that by my first name. He knew me you know.

[00:04:08]>> Yeah.

[00:04:09]>> And uh I want to send you to C as a detective. I go what? I could I haven't even finished probation yet. He goes, "What?"

[00:04:17]>> I was going to say like, "What?" During your FTO, >> I'm telling Yeah. Yeah. I'm telling you, God was God's always been like blessing me like that, you know. So, I told him I said, "I haven't even finished probation." He goes, "What?" He I to him, I thought he thought I'd been there longer.

[00:04:29]>> Yeah.

[00:04:29]>> I said, "No, I haven't even finished probation yet."

[00:04:32]>> And uh he goes, "Well, we kept on talking about it." And then I said, "Well, what is it that you would want me to do?" I didn't know anything about the different divisions and all this stuff. and he told me, you know, case.

[00:04:44]>> This is your first uh job as a cop also, right? Okay. Well, I worked with at the county jail for like a year and three months. Okay. Right before that. And uh but anyway, uh he told me he wanted me to work case prep.

[00:04:55]>> I said, "What is that?" He goes, "Well, the detectives, they're going to, you know, work up the cases. They organize the case files and you fix up whatever needs fixing. How am I supposed to know when he's fixing?" the the detectives that were there at that time, they'd been there for years and they're old guys, you know, >> and uh or something missing from the case file. How am I supposed to know that? And then you submit it for indictment. I said, man, to me, that's just I'm getting set up for a fall because I'm not going to be able to succeed at that if I don't know >> I don't know anything about what the case files need, you know?

[00:05:21]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:05:21]>> So, I said, "No, anyway, I'm still in probation." He goes, "Okay." So, I go back and I work I guess another four more months. It was a year and 3 months when they called me back to I'd been a police officer for a year and 3 months.

[00:05:33]>> Okay.

[00:05:33]>> Calls back to Zaf. He goes, "I'm not asking you. I'm telling you. You're going to C."

[00:05:37]>> Okay.

[00:05:38]>> So, me and my mention his name Sam Lucio.

[00:05:42]>> Yeah.

[00:05:43]>> Uh we were in a burglary details was two guys.

[00:05:45]>> Yeah.

[00:05:46]>> And in patrol, I used to work the downtown area, the west side, but mostly downtown. Sammy or San Lucio.

[00:05:55]>> He was one of my partners. Okay. So, we I consider him. Hey, that guy's my partner. You know, the beginning. Yeah.

[00:06:01]And so, you know how it is in patrol.

[00:06:02]There's hot calls. You know, there's, >> you know, you go through those situations and you bond with the guy, you know, your brother, you know, and not just him, all the other guys, too, right? But like he was >> No, but there's always one or two that you depend on them, right? Like especially like if there's something serious going on, you're like, "Dude, I wish >> and I'll get into it." You know what I mean?

[00:06:21]>> And uh and he had been there a year before me, so he had a little bit more experience and more knowledge and stuff.

[00:06:27]So, we did this burglary detail and I'm not lying. That first year, out of 365 days that year, we had 300 arrest burglaries. Just burglaries. So, I mean, that's the way it was. All and my whole career was like that. So, >> I'm laughing a little bit because I I did CI work right at the sheriff's office. That doesn't happen, man. Like, how do you guys get so many freaking cases closed with arrests?

[00:06:50]>> Yeah. And and you know, and I might give this credit to Sammy because Sammy's like, "Let's go, go, go, go right, right now." I'm real hyper to begin with, but this guy, what we would do is, >> and it'd be unfair to some victims, but we'd go through, we get to work in the morning, see all the cases. Let's say there was five, six burgers or maybe just two or three.

[00:07:08]>> Yeah.

[00:07:08]>> But the one that looked really good, like there was evidence, there's witnesses. This is one working today.

[00:07:13]Yeah.

[00:07:13]>> And we call in witnesses, we come pick them up by by >> by lunchtime.

[00:07:18]>> Yeah.

[00:07:18]>> We had a warrant. And then >> gota >> serving the warrants, picking up evidence, finishing some I'm serious.

[00:07:26]Yeah.

[00:07:26]>> Some of those cases by the end of the day that file was already submitted for indictment.

[00:07:29]>> Yeah.

[00:07:30]>> It was like that. But the reason that but 300 arrest is that not every burglar was just one burglar. Sometimes there was a group of five or six guys.

[00:07:36]>> Got it.

[00:07:37]>> So that's how it gots the numbers got >> No, but but still, man, that's a lot of arrest. That's a lot of arrest. I mean, >> uh people sometimes don't understand, man. But but uh you get up to five cases a day.

[00:07:50]>> Oh yeah.

[00:07:51]>> Of offenses as an investigator. And then you know like a year it accumulates to like you know 300 400 cases that you have that you're in charge of.

[00:08:00]>> Yeah.

[00:08:01]>> And and then there's more C investigators that also have the same amount of case load. It's just impossible to solve all of them.

[00:08:08]>> Yeah. You can't catch up. You can't catch up. and and and meth >> personally, I mean, there's a lot of detectives like, "Hey, you know what?

[00:08:15]>> There's no leads. There's nothing. I'm going to close it out. I'm going to inactivate it." And I couldn't do that.

[00:08:19]I couldn't I just couldn't do it. There were some like, "Man, I know I can.

[00:08:22]There's there's a couple more things I can do." And and I'd hold on to that case and because I held on to it when the next day I came in, I had three more >> and then one of two of those I held on [clears throat] hold on they build up.

[00:08:32]>> I'm thinking maybe what helped also with with you guys is that you were a year and three months in. So maybe that that energy that everybody has at the beginning, it hadn't died out because you know, you spend two years, three years in patrol and you can quickly just >> Yeah.

[00:08:48]>> You know, go down because you're like, man, the reality of the job, you're like, dude, what is this, man?

[00:08:53]>> You know what I mean? So I guess you were still in that.

[00:08:55]>> Yeah. Yeah. And and like I said, >> even right now >> Yeah.

[00:08:59]>> You know, I'm 62 and I'm still hyper.

[00:09:01]Like I'm hyper. Like that helps.

[00:09:03]>> Real hyper. You know, Sammy's a hard charger, too. and the all the I mean seem and you know all the all the the u >> all the the >> the different all the groups of of of patrol the morning shift afternoon shift the night shift >> there's a lot of good cops and they're all over the place you know like like you right now you said man >> if I'm going to go into something really hot that guy's one of the guys I want to go with >> there was guys like that not all of them are you know it's just like and every job >> and every job there's those guys that and those guys that are just and I don't want to say crazy, but man, they're just they they don't care. They're going to go and they're going to go >> and and u so there's guys like that, but I always thought and I guess the other guys thought too about about their shifts, you know, but I thought our shift was pretty good.

[00:09:50]>> Yeah, >> our shift was real good. So, uh >> like you're saying, you got lucky, man.

[00:09:55]You got in put in the right place at the right time and everything.

[00:09:57]>> Yeah. Yeah. My training officer, my primary training officer was Sammy's brother, older brother, Manny. That's one of those guys that quiet guy >> hardly talks but man that's one of those guys you want with you you know he's a tough guy you know >> but uh anyway so yeah going about the going back to the thing about the I still had the energy and the enthusiasm and all that stuff I tell my wife now you see these shows on TV like NYPD or whatever the the reality shows not the not the fake ones >> but there's detectives that are old and they're working cases I there's no way I could do it because I know when I work the case Yeah.

[00:10:33]>> I mean, you need to be young. You need to have stamina. You need to go three or four days without stopping.

[00:10:38]>> And I don't think I would want to do that right now. There's just there's too much. The the the cases are important.

[00:10:43]Everybody, the victims are important.

[00:10:44]And >> if you can't give them that 100%, just don't do it. I wouldn't want to. I couldn't do it right now.

[00:10:49]>> Yeah.

[00:10:50]>> So, >> no. Yeah. You're you're right, man. I mean, people people deserve uh the same amount of attention to to every single case they file, right?

[00:10:59]>> Reality is different, man. you know, like they don't know that we have all this bunch of other cases that are we're also trying to to to work. And sometimes like you're saying, we have to pick the ones that have like witnesses, maybe video, you know what I mean? Like the the the >> you got to start with the ones that you can secure a warrant like you're saying and and then go from there and then you have >> you have to plus you just prioritize your workload.

[00:11:20]>> Yeah. The ones that you can you know solve and there's no sense in working on a case that's going to take you a month to work and this one you can do it in a day. Yeah.

[00:11:26]>> Leave it. get this one and get rid of it. And you know, I think work on these while you can every every chance you can.

[00:11:33]>> And uh but yeah, that was what that was.

[00:11:37]>> I don't want to say it was a problem because it was a good thing, but I just couldn't let go those cases. So I ended up having a you know, a bunch of cases.

[00:11:43]>> So So a year and three months in [clears throat] and and after that you stayed in C for your whole career.

[00:11:49]>> Yeah. Uh well, no. And then so the last I guess the last eight years >> or or you know like burglaries which was part of with Bronz PD that was SIU right?

[00:11:59]>> No burglaries was yeah it was part of C.

[00:12:02]So me and Sammy did the burglaries and then after couple of years >> Sammy uh got moved on. He went to I don't know if he went to property because there's you know there's property crimes against persons you know >> and properties all uh thefts and all that stuff and then property I mean person's crimes >> the robberies the shootings all that kind of stuff >> murder sexual assaults and all that. So, um, so I stayed there and I'm not sure if somebody else came and worked with me for a little bit, but time was going on.

[00:12:32]And then, so what they had me doing was, excuse me, the the detectives would, let's say, they have like a big case, like I say, a murder.

[00:12:41]>> Yeah.

[00:12:41]>> Aggravated slag, robbery, whatever. So, they'd get a warrant and then sometimes they'd get a team that, hey, the supervisor, hey, let's get a team. Let's get a crew. Yeah. Sometimes even involves SWAT or whatever. We're going hit this guy. We're going to go pick him up or whatever. But sometimes a lot of times which was my job the supervisor makers I got this warrant here from this case going look for so I was selling fugitives you know the guys are want it so I did that for a couple years and that was fun >> that's all I would do at that time I wasn't even getting cases like where I would have to like investigate my investigation was that hey where's this guy >> got it >> where he's serving >> warrants yeah and that that that you know finding where the person is that's investigative but it's not solving the crime and said, "Hey, where's this guy?

[00:13:24]Is he here? He's in Florida or where is he?" You know, >> and then use your resources.

[00:13:28]>> Pretty much what the US Marshals does.

[00:13:29]Yeah, that's it.

[00:13:30]>> So, that was the guy from Bronswick PD.

[00:13:32]And but before that, um, >> and you did that for for how long?

[00:13:36]>> Well, yeah. Before that, I had been u still I wasn't it wasn't a bley detail anymore. It kind of dissolved. So, I was working property crimes.

[00:13:43]>> Mhm.

[00:13:44]>> For some reason, I don't know how it happened, but you know, there was a bank robbery and uh so I started working it.

[00:13:52]Boom. Boom. Boom, boom. The case was solved. I solved the bank robbery, right? I was a fairly young detective, you know, and uh and [clears throat] case solved, you know, recovered money, this and that, whatever. At that point, the FBI gets involved because it's that's their jury, the bank robberies.

[00:14:07]They file those cases federally, right?

[00:14:09]>> So, I met some of the FBI agents and then some time passed. We had another bank robbery. I worked that one. In total, I worked seven bank robberies.

[00:14:17]>> Damn.

[00:14:18]>> And they were solved with arrest. I'm talking about people in out of in different parts of the country, you know. Well, I during that time I met the the FBI agents that were here locally.

[00:14:27]So, they were friends of mine.

[00:14:28]>> Mhm.

[00:14:29]>> So, and then I was doing the the fugitive stuff for I think I did the fugitives for like about maybe two years.

[00:14:36]>> Okay.

[00:14:37]>> And um on my seventh year as a detective, all that stuff was going on, the entry to C, the burglary, the the property crimes, the bank robbers, and then the fugitive stuff. On my seventh year, the chief calls me into his office. He goes, "Hey, we're starting a task force at the FBI. It's a violent crimes fugitive task force."

[00:14:54]>> What do you mean? He goes, "Yeah, just violent crime. The fugitives that's this task force is going to just be focusing on arresting those guys like the marshals."

[00:15:04]>> Yeah.

[00:15:04]>> And then the task force it was going to be based out of FBI. So there was >> Well, so anyway, he goes, "Are you interested?" Yeah. So he sent me over there. When I went Yeah. So when I went over there automatically that to be on a task force they would at Bron PD >> Mhm.

[00:15:19]>> you would be under the SIU umbrella.

[00:15:22]>> Got it.

[00:15:22]>> Which is the narcotics and all that stuff.

[00:15:25]>> So they switched me on paper to SIU.

[00:15:28]>> But I went straight to the FBI and the FBI and the task force. There was like three FBI agents. Brown PD, Harleen PD, Cameron County, one Texas Ranger, a special agent from customs, uh, Border Patrol.

[00:15:43]I think that was it.

[00:15:44]>> Yeah.

[00:15:45]>> And right off the bat, dude, I mean, like that first week, any if you think about the country where we are in the in the center of the United States, right?

[00:15:55]Uh if anybody's in the east coast, yeah, they can go to Canada, but if they're going to come, if they say they want to go to Mexico, they're probably going to come to Brownsville, >> you know, and you know, that happens all the time, >> especially during those years, man. Like [clears throat] the the early 90s, that was the wild west, man down here.

[00:16:11]>> Yeah, it was it was crazy. So, um, at that time, I don't I man, you know what? I had to have. I was gonna say I don't remember if I even had a cell phone at that time, but I guess I did. For sure. I [laughter] did.

[00:16:25]>> One of the big ones.

[00:16:26]>> Yeah, for sure. the radios that FBI had that were using, they were like humongous, you know, >> and um >> so that I think it was like that first week uh there was this guy that had shot a NYPD officer >> and uh their investigators were tracking him and they say, "Hey man, we have information that he might be here." It was outside city in the county. Um, [clears throat] and so I just went and I started driving around and then I had pictures of the guy and started talking to people and man, I see the guy in the driveway of a house. Now I don't have, you know, >> near the border by the bridge or how did that happen?

[00:17:08]>> It was uh Oklahoma Lumber Road.

[00:17:11]>> Also, so do you have a Maso's area where where to look for this guy?

[00:17:15]>> Yeah. Yeah, cuz they were tracking him >> and they said, "We have information that he might be he has relatives at his house or whatever, you know, >> and uh so I didn't have communication with the FBI. I did have a phone cuz I called our our supervisor for the FBI. I said, "Hey, bro, this guy's here."

[00:17:30]>> Yeah.

[00:17:31]>> And who are you with? I'm by myself. He goes, "Man," and the thing about the FBI, man, they have I mean, >> their red tape is like red tape. It's not like rounds of PD or county. Hey, you know, you can see a guy, you can go if you want, but there >> and over there you have to submit and they by the time that you get the green light, >> you know, that's a long time. So, and that was one of >> it's gone.

[00:17:52]>> Yeah. That was one of the benefits in our task force that that we had >> uh the RNG PD, me and the county.

[00:17:59]>> Yeah.

[00:18:00]>> We had different resources. The Texas Rangers, they had different resources, the custom. So, we utilize all that. So instead of FBI doing their warrants instead of say hey Brown just go.

[00:18:09]>> Yeah.

[00:18:10]>> So I called a supervisor from SIOU and send some couple of guys and we go you know but that night and it was night time.

[00:18:16]>> Uh I said man. So I got a hold of the sheriff's office.

[00:18:20]>> They sent some deputies and I could look this is who I am. This is what's going on. The guys are it was just three me and two guys.

[00:18:25]>> Yeah.

[00:18:26]>> This guy killed the NYPD cop right like two days before that.

[00:18:30]>> So we probably should have waited for more guys but that's just the way it happened you know and now it's dark. So, we go over there and boom, boom, boom, we take down the guy there. So, I'm telling you right off the bat, a big time fugitive.

[00:18:41]>> Yeah.

[00:18:42]>> So, um to answer your question about the where I was, so the first seven years I was on C.

[00:18:48]>> Mhm.

[00:18:48]>> And then I went to that task force. I was there for 5 years.

[00:18:51]>> Oh, okay. I see. I see.

[00:18:53]>> And [clears throat] that was the >> So, so only about a year and three months of of of patrol.

[00:18:57]>> Yeah, >> man. Yeah. I guess you're a little lucky.

[00:19:01]>> Yeah. That's I'm telling you, you and when I was with the FBI, I mean, I was doing stuff that >> and not to put anybody down. They're all all good workers. They all work, you know, however they can, you know, do as much as they can, you know.

[00:19:12]>> Uh, but I was lucky and it but it and it was so it was >> a lot of fun. Like they'd call me cuz >> it it was supposed to be a violent crime fugitive task force and and it was >> but >> remember when uh >> I don't know if you were here, but the two port border patrol agents got shot in uh by Samito.

[00:19:30]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Uh so that morning actually uh we're going to go qualify, you know, we had to qualify for with the with the FBI standards, right?

[00:19:40]>> Yeah.

[00:19:41]>> For the guns and we're going [clears throat] to meet at the Tur Brew in Harlington. And that's the other thing. Our jurisdiction wasn't just here. It was >> everywhere. Yeah.

[00:19:48]>> And uh there was a joint task force in Macallen. So they will work the northwest of of our jurisdiction. We work the northeast.

[00:19:55]>> Mhm. And uh so I'm going early in the morning driving to the tourist in Harlington and I see units they're flying southbound lights flashing on the grill lights.

[00:20:05]>> What the heck's going on? And they were unmarked cars, trucks and you know SUV, not like suburban stuff >> and uh said what's going on? What's going on?

[00:20:14]>> And uh so I call our dispatcher because I was still at Bron PD cop and I could see him. They're like uh well they pass on because they're going to Sanito.

[00:20:23]>> Yeah. But um I called a dispatch and they said, "Yeah, there's something's going on. Uh and over here, this this area, this guy went and shot his uh I think his wife and his mother-in-law."

[00:20:34]>> Yeah.

[00:20:35]>> And uh so a deputy saw him and started chasing him. Then >> hold on. Is it the same case where the wasn't the the son of one of the chief of police from >> a detective? He was a detective.

[00:20:51]detective. He had taken [clears throat] like a rifle from the evidence room.

[00:20:54]>> Yeah, >> that's what he used. Yeah.

[00:20:56]>> Okay.

[00:20:56]>> The sergeant or he was a sergeant. I forgot his name, but he was in charge of the property.

[00:21:01]>> So, um >> you know, including the guns and the the guns that are seized and you know, for an investigation, if they're not going to be kept for >> ballistics or you know, any kind of DNA or anything like that, >> uh they're destroyed. They're not auctioned off or anything. And so, takes a while to destroy.

[00:21:21]>> Yeah. Yeah. And so this guy had his evidence room full of us, but he was taking some of them home. I mean, I don't want to talk about the guy, but >> I'm sure he's a he's a sergeant, you know, >> different times, man, back in the ' 90s.

[00:21:32]>> So, his son got a hold of one of the weapons.

[00:21:34]>> Yeah. Um, and that weapon that he used, I don't think that's the one he used for I'm not sure if he used that one for his his wife or girlfriend or whatever she was and and her mom, but what happened was that he he went back to the house and uh um a deputy was chasing him, but he he >> a deputy conible, I think. I can't remember.

[00:21:55]>> It was a deputy sheriff deputy. Yeah.

[00:21:57]Um, yeah. I >> I want to say it was uh I want to say it was Pete Ve who ended up with Bronzup detective. Good good guy.

[00:22:06]>> Yeah, >> he's still working.

[00:22:08]>> I think it was for sure he was there, but I'm not sure if he was that initial guy that was chasing him. So, the guy gets to his house, runs through the front door when the law enforcement, whoever it was, he gets to the door now.

[00:22:17]He's like, >> you know, you don't want to just go into a house. You don't know who's in there, get ambushed, right?

[00:22:21]>> Yeah.

[00:22:22]>> So, I think he backed up. That's the way I remember.

[00:22:24]>> Yeah. So he he's yelling for backup and guys are going over there. Border Patrol. There was a a Kalich road in front of the house. He was in the middle of cornfields. That house was real weird. There's like you go down a Kich road >> and then there was a driveway and all around like right across the street there's a a cornfield. Yeah. Corner grain. I don't remember but tall.

[00:22:45]>> So the guy goes into his house, comes out the back door. Border Patrol agents are parked >> uh facing the house, but they they're taking cover behind the unit. They're, you know, cover. This guy comes [clears throat] behind and he shoots him from behind.

[00:22:56]>> Yeah.

[00:22:57]>> So, all that stuff was happening and I'm over I get to the tourist bureau and I tell, you know, my supervisor, Freddy, I say, "Hey, bro, this there's some stuff going on over here that we need to go.

[00:23:09]You know, they're, you know, patrol agents and all this stuff. It's they're federal officers, you know."

[00:23:14]>> Yeah.

[00:23:15]>> Oh, we got to call our supervisor.

[00:23:18]>> I'm going to just take off. You got to wait for your supervisor, but I'm going to go.

[00:23:21]>> And I didn't. He goes, "Wait, wait, wait." So, because I was part of their task force, right?

[00:23:25]>> Yeah. Let's get >> some phone call. Yeah. So, we did get approval. We all go over there. The reason I bring that up is because the our task force originally started as a violent crime fugitive task force.

[00:23:35]>> But that day now there's two agents that are dead there.

[00:23:40]>> Mhm.

[00:23:41]>> And uh and and uh there all this stuff had already happened. We didn't get there when it was hot. It was had already happened.

[00:23:50]>> Yeah.

[00:23:51]But now there's a big crime scene and there is like DPA, there's hundreds of officers there and um and just to explain a little bit like to for people that are listening is that uh any federal agent that gets into a shooting or anything like it somehow it ends up being investigated by the FBI because the FBI is the the agency that then is going to file the charges for the offenses against federal agents, right?

[00:24:15]So >> they yeah they should be the ones sometimes you know the other a let's say >> I don't think so >> but especially back then the FBI was the agency that was >> to me FBI it was going to be their case >> it was going to be their case >> and uh so during those seven years when I was at Browno >> of course we have homicides every year and if it's your you know your first weekend as a detective and and there's a homicide of course you're not going to be the lead investigator but you're going to get assigned hey go do this going to that going to this and so you're seeing how things are done.

[00:24:45]>> Yeah.

[00:24:46]>> Um, so by that time I had worked a lot of on a lot of homicides. They weren't my cases, but I had worked on a lot >> up to that year >> up to my seventh my seventh year as a detective >> and and up to that incident that you're telling us about.

[00:24:58]>> Yeah. I had already worked like in one year we had like >> 23 homicides. So I had been exposed to homicide investigations, you know.

[00:25:04]>> Yeah.

[00:25:05]>> So the supervisor and the agents they knew me but because of the bank robberies that I had worked and they they helped me or whatever.

[00:25:12]But the supervisor for the uh FBI, [clears throat] >> not the supervisor for our task force, the actual supervisor for that office, the Browns office.

[00:25:20]>> Got it. The one that you never see.

[00:25:22]>> Yeah. [laughter] >> The one that is always just >> No. Yeah. Actually, this guy is pretty good. I remember I think it's Caralen Caral, I think, was his name.

[00:25:28]>> Good guy.

[00:25:29]>> Yeah.

[00:25:30]>> Um so he pulls me aside. He goes, "Hey, Chris, uh >> you've worked in homicide before?" And I go, "Yeah." And I'm frustrated because like nobody's doing anything. You know, you're talking about all the the different crime scenes that you go to the um just say, you know, the different cases where there's dead bodies.

[00:25:45]>> Yeah.

[00:25:46]>> I had never seen anybody in law enforcement dead and they were in uniform.

[00:25:52]>> Yeah.

[00:25:52]>> You know, that one that one it it freaked me out. I was like, and nobody was doing anything. Everybody was like, "What do we do? What do we do? What do we do?" It there was a lot of officers there. There was a SWAT team, Brown SWAT team that showed up, Cameron County SWAT team. I think DPS I mean there because we didn't know when the guy now I'm going to just go by off the top of my head the way I remember but the guy ambushed him and somebody shot him I don't know who and they actually I think they flew that guy away in a helicopter >> and uh but they didn't know if there was more guys in the field I'm telling the the field across the street you couldn't see it was really high I don't know >> especially is because I think in those years like also people were not used to especially law enforcement right of of taking that kind of a rate of fire. I think it was like a either an AK or an AR.

[00:26:39]>> I don't remember >> some rifle that that had way more capacity than what the cops were using back back in the day. You know what I mean? At least patrol officers.

[00:26:47]>> Yeah.

[00:26:47]>> The guy had more more firepower.

[00:26:49]>> I remember when I was in patrol, we had shotguns, >> but it's not the same thing as close distance, you know, >> and it's not, you know, as much ammunition, the rapidness of it, it's not the same thing. But um so what was frustrating me and I'm pretty sure everybody that was there all these guys that were used to the SWAT guys from from Brown DPS uh Cameron County and and nobody was giving orders like hey let's do this let's do everybody was saying we got to clear that field but nobody was doing it. Nobody was giving nobody was taking charge.

[00:27:21]>> Yeah.

[00:27:21]>> And of course the border patrol supervisor he goes and those are my guys I want to investigate them you know. So Ruven Carbah I think that was the name Ruen Karvah. I think his last name was cut out loud for sure. He said, "Hey, Chris, you've worked on homicides before." And I go, "Yeah." And I'm I'm frustrated because nobody's doing anything. And uh he goes, "Man, what do you think we should do?" I said, "That's all I needed to hear. We got to do this." Boom. Boom. Boom. Boom. Boom.

[00:27:44]Boom. And cut me loose.

[00:27:45]>> Yeah. We just we took over >> and uh so we ended up working on the case and a lot of cool things happened, but we were able to get and it was just cleaning up, you know, statements from witnesses and stuff like that, you know.

[00:27:58]>> Yeah. uh making sure the scene was processed correctly and then you know DPS probably took care of that but I say all that to say that after that day >> uh the super said hey Chris um I'm going to start giving you regular FBI cases [laughter] >> really man that's interesting man >> I'm telling you like man God always he always like took care of me like that like everything that I everywhere I went like things were happening in a in a positive way you know >> yeah So >> you you mentioned man seeing seeing those officers there laying down >> Yeah.

[00:28:32]>> in uniform was that tough. Oh, that was I had never seen I'd never seen I've seen you know um after that I want to say when I came back from the FBI task force [clears throat] came back to to C as a detective and automatically at that time now I was strictly persons by that time I had all kinds of experience you know when I was with the FBI they would call me hey uh go to the airport they're going to pick you up pick me up in a helicopter and fly me here fly me there go work occasion it was a lot of fun you know did a lot of cool things >> so when I came back I was strictly in persons.

[00:29:05]>> Mhm.

[00:29:06]>> Uh during that time me and Sam were partners again. Now the our crimes against uh persons unit was like five guys.

[00:29:14]>> Mhm.

[00:29:15]>> Uh it would fluctuate but on the average is five five guys and there and there was there was a a group of us that were it was the core and then other guys would come they'd move you know like that in different divisions. They go go to SIU retire whatever you know.

[00:29:29]>> Yeah. And uh so I remember we're talking me and Sam were talking and I don't know how many years I'd been in law enforcement at that time but [clears throat] we're talking how we're just sitting there and at our desk you know it was a downtime or whatever and we're start talking about the the average person sees well the how many people the average person sees you know dead in their lifetime especially if they're young you know they're going to see their grandparents they're nine times out of 10 they don't even like I don't remember my grandparents yeah >> they Well, I remember my grandmothers, >> two of my grandmothers, but my both my grandfathers, >> they died and I was a year old, but I don't remember them. I don't remember seeing them. My grandmothers, I do.

[00:30:09]>> So, out of your four grandparents, you're going to see at least two, maybe one.

[00:30:12]>> Yeah.

[00:30:12]>> Even if you see four, that's four. And then, you know, your parents, hopefully, if it goes, you know, that's six.

[00:30:18]>> An aunt, an uncle, that's seven, eight, you know, a friend, a buddy from high school, you know, and then you see those things when you're driving on the street, a car accident, you're going to see about 10 people. Yeah.

[00:30:27]>> Now, the older you get, you're going to start seeing more relatives passing away. And I'm talking about all of those were usually are on the average, you know, at the funeral home, unless you know, you know, your mom or your dad passes away at home, you know, in their sleep. Well, you see them there, an aunt or uncle, whatever.

[00:30:44]>> But we were seeing a toz, >> you know, shootings, stabbings, hangings, natural causes, I mean, accidents, drowning, whatever. Any any kind of way he could die, we were seeing it. And then not only that, the different stages of decomposition.

[00:30:59]>> Some had just happened. Some had been there for like a long time.

[00:31:03]>> Yeah.

[00:31:04]>> And there are stories that man, but I'm saying that to say that. Well, let me finish that. So we were talking about that and I I just said man >> and we didn't count one by one but just on the average that you see like that one year you know we worked 23 cases >> you know and so I don't remember how many years I had been on at that time but we came to the conclusion that at that time we had probably seen over 600 dead bodies >> and or say man that's not normal >> but I [clears throat] but I saw that to say that in the beginning when I saw those agents >> in uniform >> Mhm. with you could still see the blood, you know, trickling down the Khalichi road. Why weren't they moving them? I mean, they were dead. And I guess you got to, you know, secure them, whatever.

[00:31:43]But even now, like afterwards, when I think about it, you know, if there'd be a shooting, EMS would get there and you treat them.

[00:31:51]So when you see a body, you see >> stuff on them where the medical stuff, you know, >> and these guys didn't have nothing. They they just covered him with a sheet.

[00:31:58]>> Yeah.

[00:31:59]>> And [clears throat] that was it. That that that was weird. That was at that point that was the like the hardest thing I could just it hit me because hey I'm a cop. These guys are cops, you know. They're border patrol agents but they're cops, you know.

[00:32:13]>> And to see them the way they were there and I they're they weren't um you know for whoever is going to hear this and maybe one of the relatives. I'm not saying that they were mistreated or they didn't do the best they could for them. They you unfortunately they were deceased.

[00:32:28]>> Yeah.

[00:32:28]>> And some supervisors said, "Hey, don't contaminate the scene." You know, that's a decision that they made and and I I'm okay with that.

[00:32:35]>> Yeah.

[00:32:35]>> I don't want anybody to think like, man, they should have done that. No, they were they were gone.

[00:32:39]>> Yeah. They were gone, >> you know. But yeah, to answer your question, the to see a law enforcement >> person >> Yes. [clears throat] >> in uniform with blood coming out of them just laying there. That was >> It was tough.

[00:32:50]>> Yeah. I've never seen that.

[00:32:53]>> I guess I guess it's one of those [clears throat] uh and I tell people, man, like on on my experience, there's some images that you can't get rid of it. there there's they get uh recorded in your brain forever.

[00:33:06]>> Yeah, I can see them right now as as you're saying that. I'm I'm thinking of some of the cases and I I can see them.

[00:33:11]>> And I was going to ask you I mean up to [clears throat] this point you said you had already been working kind of like murders for up to how many years? Like seven years you said something like that or no?

[00:33:21]>> Up to that point you had already worked murders before >> up to the FBI up to the Yeah. the guys that got shot.

[00:33:27]>> Yeah. I had had been involved in homicide investigations, but I had since I wasn't a send person, I was never the like the lead investigator whereas was in my case, but they would tell me, "Hey, do this, do that, take statements and go here, pick this guy up, and you know, or go and set surveillance here."

[00:33:41]So, what I was doing some some pretty cool stuff.

[00:33:44]>> Yeah. So, what I was going to ask you is like you had seen dead bodies.

[00:33:46]>> Oh, yeah. uh even in patrol >> and and you know [snorts] like it it becomes normal I guess you know because that's that's what I experienced you know like you were seeing so many like cases of of w with with with dead bodies that it just becomes normal but then >> there's a couple of cases that you're like man >> this this is different you know >> for me it was like the first time that I worked a case with a with a baby >> and then going through the opto so I I guess in a Uh, and I never seen, you know, a a uniform officer that been killed. You know, I haven't seen his body like that.

[00:34:25]So, I guess it it it was a big impact for you up to that point because you you seen, you know, like this like a for all the cases that you worked with, this is the first time you actually see one of your brothers, you know, in in uniform.

[00:34:37]>> Yeah. Yeah. and and um you know you're talking about the the kids you know there's a lot of there's a there was a few cases where I worked up before that you know babies that you know stuff happened to them where there was they were sick or whatever even those kind of deaths >> uh they in [clears throat] the hospital they're they're sick or whatever I'm not even going to abuse yet I'm just talking about you know they died you know so you as a as a those cases still have to get investigated >> yes to yeah to make sure that there was nothing no foul play right so that's included in 600. So the kids Yeah, I saw a lot of kids and and um like you know in major traffic accidents as a patrol officer, kids would get ejected through the window and you know you see them on the laying on the street you know so the the baby cases those were tough but you know you're before that >> uh back in the day we didn't have a crime scene unit >> and now and even back there when I was still working we had a crime scene unit.

[00:35:36]Those guys are >> great, man. They >> meticulous, >> super patient, >> real calm. Like, I couldn't do it. I'm hyper. Yeah.

[00:35:46]>> Like, I would never be able to do that.

[00:35:47]It's that personality. Manny Luca was one of those guys.

[00:35:50]>> Yeah.

[00:35:51]>> Um there was three that that worked during the time that I was. Manny Lucio, uh Julio Biones, and um >> and uh Juanis Big John.

[00:36:01]>> Yeah.

[00:36:01]>> There was two other guys that that worked, but those three guys were like >> Big John. Everybody knows Big John, but those guys, they would they go in there and they'd work for a case, a crime scene. If it took three days, they would work three days. But I'm talking about like >> how can you just go and look every that's a special kind of person that does that.

[00:36:21]>> But back in the day, we didn't have a crime scene. So, >> hey, Mario Chris, we have a murder over there. Go over there. Or they find a dead body, we go over there. That's your baby. If there's >> 20 casings, that's your crime scene. And not only that, you know, securing the body. I remember there's one guy. Uh it was a hit from the cartel and they left him in the backseat of a car. It's in the middle of summer, hot.

[00:36:44]>> Mhm.

[00:36:44]>> And [clears throat] uh he was in the backseat of a car, windows rolled up at a parking lot of a grocery store.

[00:36:49]>> During the day, people were shopping, never noticed. At night time, the car was still there. Nobody noticed it.

[00:36:55]About a weekend passed. That was We found that it had been 5 days after the investigation.

[00:36:59]>> Yeah. Uh >> this guy had been in the car for 5 days cooking. You know, it was in the middle of summer, hot. Well, me and another detective, there's no crime scene. So, we open the door and man, you know, that smell that smell. Yeah. That smell. And then, you know, we're pulling him out and his skin's dead on the seat.

[00:37:17]>> I mean, I don't know how graphic you want me to get or how this is open. This is like because I I want people to hear like >> reality, man. You know, like we're not trying to make like this is what it is, >> you know? Especially if it's a young listener that that wants to pursue a career in law enforcement that this is what it is.

[00:37:36]>> Oh yeah. Yeah. And um so yeah, like that guy you we were taking him out and his skin just and he was super bloated and >> he was his skin just stayed on the seat, you know, like and that's another thing like you know I grew up living the life that I lived and >> when did I ever think I was going to see that, you know? I didn't even ever think I was going to be a cop when I was growing up. That no intention of being first.

[00:38:00]No, I I tell people that, man, to be honest, like when I got out out of uh law enforcement >> and I only did it for for 13 years, >> right? And out of those 13, it was uh nine years doing investigations.

[00:38:14]>> But towards the end of my career, man, like >> during the autopsies and and and and processing like a dead body, [clears throat] >> it was [snorts] different now, man. Like I I was because I was that guy also going trying to go 110 miles per hour, right? Trying to do everything and >> everything.

[00:38:35]>> Uh but towards the end, man, like I was like, man, that's somebody's, you know, father.

[00:38:40]>> Mhm. [snorts] >> That's somebody's mother. That's somebody's grandma.

[00:38:44]>> Like, >> uh you're saying how we see sometimes up to hundreds of dead bodies in a year or whatever or throughout your career, even way more than that. is not normal, man.

[00:38:56]>> No. And you know the you're talking about you mentioned [clears throat] something that reminded me of that we're not used to you don't grow up being trained. Yeah. You go to the academy, but you don't you're not trained.

[00:39:09]>> No.

[00:39:10]>> Or to to be exposed to that kind of stuff. And sometimes when you're talking to the victims family, you're trying to be, you know, consoling them and and it's really easy to say the wrong thing.

[00:39:21]And that happened to me early in my as a detective. this guy uh with a young girl had hung herself in her bedroom closet >> and um so I don't know who called it in somebody a family member got there and they said the girl she was young you know 15 14 years old and she's dead I mean EMS goes there they take her down but she's she's gone you know >> and so I'm outside doing whatever I'm doing and this guy drives in hot you know and he's >> a family member yeah >> is being the father >> oh the father >> and so he's of hard.

[00:39:54]>> He's freaking out, you know. He's like, "And uh screaming and being aggressive and I go, "Calm down. How about McDonald's?"

[00:40:02]Okay. You know, and then so he breaks down and I'll never forget. I told him, >> "It's going to be okay." He looked at me like, "Are you [ __ ] stupid?"

[00:40:12]>> He he actually told me that.

[00:40:14]>> Yeah.

[00:40:14]>> You [ __ ] stupid? That's my daughter, man. And I was like, >> "Holy [ __ ] Talk about saying the wrong thing." Yeah.

[00:40:20]>> And you know, but you learn from that, you know. um death notifications part of the job, >> you know. Uh that was the hard thing to do also because you know those people are gonna freak out.

[00:40:31]>> Yeah.

[00:40:31]>> And sometimes we get calls from other jurisdictions, other agencies, hey um this person's in San Antonio, whatever, >> his parents live at this house. Can you go and do death notifications? Okay.

[00:40:41]>> So you see that there's an old lady or whatever. Hey, tell this guy, hey, send an ambulance and just have him wait down the street just in case. And I forget uh [clears throat] one of our guys um he he had he had been in patrol for a while.

[00:40:53]He he was way younger than me >> and so they moved into CD and he was with me. I wanted to go into a death notification and and the way it is to me I I saw a lot of other guys give death notification but for me >> it's like when you get bad news from the doctor the doctors don't sugar coat it and say hey this is what you have and these are your options. And so that's what I'll do.

[00:41:13]>> Are you this is your son this is your daughter whatever. I'm sorry I have to tell you this, but you know, he was found this way or whatever and and and he passed away.

[00:41:21]>> Yeah.

[00:41:21]>> And [clears throat] then they just fall where they fall. You know, where they freak out, they, you know, whatever happens.

[00:41:26]>> But uh Yeah. So then as far as the >> I kind of went through the same that you're saying like I learned not to [ __ ] around.

[00:41:34]>> Yeah.

[00:41:35]>> Like just go straight to the point, man.

[00:41:36]Yeah. You know, and and and the way that I that I would do it is I just look at a family member, if it was a parent, it was a brother, I'm like, "Man, your brother >> or son is bad news."

[00:41:48]>> Yeah.

[00:41:49]>> And they'll see me and and Yeah.

[00:41:51]>> He's dead.

[00:41:52]>> You know, I >> because at the beginning, you try to make it better for them and and and then you say something like that like it's going to be okay, right?

[00:42:00]>> We because we're trying to we're trying to take a little bit of their suffering, man. You're trying to make it better, but there's there's nothing you can say.

[00:42:06]>> No. So, so I learned that the hard way too, man. Just just tell them.

[00:42:09]>> Yeah.

[00:42:10]>> Don't don't don't [ __ ] around, man.

[00:42:11]Just let them know.

[00:42:12]>> Yeah.

[00:42:13]>> I mean, they already know something's going on because they have a cop in their doorway, >> right?

[00:42:20]>> Yeah.

[00:42:21]>> So, man, but it's one of those hard things, man. And I I never enjoy doing that, man. Like, >> death notification is hard, man. So, >> um, >> so get into the to the kids and I never been to a a a baby autopsy. That's one thing in my hooker. I think I did basically everything even, you know, some narcotics, autotheft, a a lot of different things. And then as a detective with C, that's one thing I never did. And I went to several autopsies, like a bunch of them, >> but I never went to a child autopsy. And I even now when I'm thinking about it compared to the autopsies of adults that I saw what what they do to the body.

[00:42:59]>> Mhm.

[00:43:00]>> And you know you go there and you know you're calloused. You're like okay you're documenting taking pictures right taking notes or whatever. And you see my season. Hey doc what about over here this and that. Oh let me cut it open.

[00:43:10]you know, so you >> you're not freaking out at that time, but and and like seeing putting myself there for an adult >> and seeing right now as we're speaking a baby that I think that'll be weird, >> man. I've never seen a baby.

[00:43:23]>> I did a lot of babies.

[00:43:25]>> Autopsies.

[00:43:26]>> Yeah.

[00:43:26]>> Wow.

[00:43:26]>> Because when I when I started, you know, I don't want to say his name, but supervisor, right? He was like, "Oh, you're the marine, right? Go."

[00:43:36]>> Because nobody want to do those, you know? So, like, you go. you're you're the big shot marine can scare you been in combat like [clears throat] >> but I'm like dude I don't want to do this man I have little kids too but somebody has to do it >> so since I was like the brand new guy so I started doing them and then he just >> I got used to it you know like okay if it's a baby they're going to send me if it's a little girl little kid [clears throat] >> so so I did it man and it was tough man >> and I remember one of them it wasn't my first one I was already you know done a couple of babies but >> there was one autopsy with a baby where the uh the uh the assistant for the forens forensic examiner [clears throat] >> Mhm.

[00:44:17]>> was brand new >> because the one that was there for years I think was taking a break because he had hearts uh surgery.

[00:44:24]>> Mhm.

[00:44:25]>> So So this young girl was there and she had gone to college and all this was there to to do it >> and [clears throat] I could tell that that [snorts] she it was it was getting to her.

[00:44:35]>> Yeah.

[00:44:35]>> Yeah. that she she was, you know, like that it was really hard for her >> to do and not obtain a baby.

[00:44:41]>> Yeah, that's [snorts] crazy. Yeah. And even the adults, I mean, like >> and you know, you get callous. So >> Mhm.

[00:44:48]>> I guess I have to remind myself as I'm sitting here that somebody's going to say this that you know, they might, hey man, that that was my kid, whatever. But the the callousness of all these cases, you know, that that we talk about as law enforcement officers, you know, they're extreme. Some of them are extreme. Like, you know, you get bloated or whatever.

[00:45:10]And you know, the first of the punctures, they can explode. Yeah.

[00:45:13]>> And that happened a couple times. Like, what the heck? You're not supposed to >> You're not supposed to see that.

[00:45:18]>> Yeah.

[00:45:19]>> You know, so um >> the the change of of color on the on the skin, you know, with with some of the drowns.

[00:45:25]>> Oh, yeah. uh you know how they turned like like green after >> let me tell you the story real quick and talking talking about babies now you mentioned drowning and talking about seeing like a toz >> okay >> you know every time that we get a a person that drawn in the river people that would crossing from Mexico over here to to live get a better life >> we have a lot of those >> so those I don't know we call them floaters hey respond to a floater I don't know why I'm sure there was a 10 code name for I don't remember but those people that drowned >> and then they resurface when the the gas bodies fill up with gas, they resurface, they're floating. So then they get stuck in the brush or be floating down down river or whatever. So we get a lot of those.

[00:46:02]>> And uh by the one time, and this is this is a weird one, too.

[00:46:08]You think about how a a person struggles when they're drowning, they're fighting, they're fighting, they're fighting, they're struggling, trying to get up, blah blah blah, and then finally they die.

[00:46:16]>> Well, this man was floating downstream or down river on his back. He was already bloated and he was holding his baby. Oh, >> the baby was face down and he was floating down river and like we're watching him because he was in the middle in the middle of the river. We had to get wait for the fire department to get their boat and they'd go further downstream and you know to intercept it unless it would float towards the bank and then you know they would get stuck in the brush or whatever. But this guy was just floating down river in the very middle and he was on his back. He wasn't bobbing up and he's just floating straight up in his back and he's holding his baby and the baby's dead, too. He's face down. There's a turtle eating on the back of the baby's head. And I'm watching this and I go, "Wow."

[00:47:00]>> That turtle thing was a weird thing. But the thing that Yeah. But the thing that really impressed me was that this man when he was fighting this drowning thing, fighting for his life and probably trying to help his kid, push him up or whatever and at the end of the the whole thing, he never surrender.

[00:47:21]>> Yeah. But he when he did, he never moment. Yeah.

[00:47:23]>> Yeah. He he he took care of his kid to death to the death.

[00:47:28]>> That was that that was a that was a big impression on me. was like, "Wow, that that man, you know, he he took care of his kid till they died, you know."

[00:47:37]>> Oh, man. That's that's a >> Yeah, that was a weird one.

[00:47:41]Wow.

[00:47:45]Yeah. No, that that that's a tough one, man. [clears throat] >> And then and then because Yeah. You you have nature, you know, you have animals >> that uh people people sometimes [snorts] don't know. They think that >> that bodies look like like on the movies. Yeah. like with makeup and everything, but it's not, you know, like it's it's tough >> and those and the rivers, you know, but they use soft tissue, the nose, the lips, you know, the ears and >> that's the other thing, man. Water erodess everything like you know how like the hair disappears, the skin, >> man, it's tough, man. And and that's what I was going to tell you too, Chris, is that uh all this is not normal, man.

[00:48:22]And so to towards the end of my career, I was going to tell you I felt that it was like uh like if your brain is a hard drive that has the capacity for so much death >> and I felt at that time that I was like yeah >> you're a full >> that it was in full man [clears throat] >> you know that man is maybe it's time for you to like I I was fine. I could keep working but I'm just saying man just [snorts] like man I >> I don't want to see more dead bodies man.

[00:48:47]>> Yeah. [clears throat] >> It's it's it's up full. I need I need to >> refresh the hard drive. make some room for it. If I'm going to keep doing this, you know, >> I don't know [snorts] if you ever felt the same, man.

[00:48:57]>> You did it for a lot longer than me and you probably work a lot more more cases with with or more murders, >> but [snorts] man, I at that point in my career after 13 years, I was like, man, I think I I need to >> you done. Yeah. And everybody would refresh.

[00:49:11]>> Yeah. and and you know that that's good that you know to refresh but when you're done when you're done and people I would get when I was getting close to the my years and I said man and I can actually start thinking about when am I going to retire you know [clears throat] and the older guys said no you're going to know >> you're going to know you are going that day that one morning you're going to say hey I'm done and that's the way everybody is good advice you know you're full you're full you can't take anymore >> and [clears throat] you're done >> but if you're able to refresh >> empty out some of that information and you You actually can't, but you know, refresh a little bit and get a new start. You know, >> remember with the old computers, you had to kind of like uh def fragment the the hard drive like the old Windows, you [clears throat] do a hard drive and you defrag the the hard drive, then you have more capacity, you know, you get rid of all the unnecessary stuff. I mean, I needed something like that, man. At that point, that's what I felt.

[00:50:01]>> Yeah. And actually after all the my career as a detective and I going back to patrol uh and I didn't think I was going to work that much longer. I said, you know, I'm I'm pretty close. I'll just go back.

[00:50:14]And but I went in like a rookie.

[00:50:17]>> Mhm.

[00:50:18]>> When I went back to patrol, I went in like a rookie again. I was I felt, man, this is cool. This is fun. You know, I was and I was again making all kinds of noise, you know.

[00:50:27]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:50:28]>> The other guys, even when I was a rookie, hey, Chris, you know, slow down, you know, slow down.

[00:50:32]>> Slow down if you have to, but I'm going, you know.

[00:50:34]>> Yeah.

[00:50:35]>> Um, you know, and I felt like a rookie again. So, I guess that those that it was good to get away from that, you know.

[00:50:41]>> Yeah.

[00:50:42]>> You can't do that for at a good with quality. You can't do it for [clears throat] some guys stay there, but I guarantee you even if they deny their quality is not the same. The quality of work can't be it can't be with all the different things that are affecting it. No, >> you you never you you cannot go 100 miles per hour all the time >> for 30 years, man. It's it's not [sighs and gasps] >> I I need to ask you about the Jonah Alen Rubio case just because, man, I know you're one of the investigators involved with [snorts] that case, >> right? Actually, there at the scene and directly involved with with with uh >> uh post processing the crime scene, right? So, if you can tell us a little bit what >> Yeah. So uh [clears throat] we had worked there had been a homicide in the south area that day >> the same day.

[00:51:31]>> The same day at around lunchtime at a used car lot guy go and they had a little small office you know [clears throat] >> guy that worked there the salesman or I don't know if it was the owner or whatever and uh so a guy goes in there to rob him and he ends up shooting him.

[00:51:46]>> So we get called and patrol goes over there and they call the idea we go over there and we start doing our thing.

[00:51:50]still working homicide >> a everything we're doing you know trying to find out what happened and we did um by three or four we already had a warrant case was solved the guy was not here he fled to Mexico you know >> but the case was solved so we were tying up all the loose ends taking statements you know getting evidence and this and that from different locations >> um so Julio Bon who I mentioned a while ago He he he's still working. Actually, that guy's been there forever. When I got to PD, he had already been there. I'm going to take a guess, but five years. I don't know. He'd been there for it seemed like he'd been there a long time when I joined PD.

[00:52:33]>> And then uh so, but like I said, I I got moved to C and he was in patrol. So, when he got moved to C, he was actually with me. I wasn't training him, but he was riding along with me.

[00:52:45]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:52:47]And [clears throat] uh so that day we were finishing up that first murder. And so about 6:30 or so, me and July taking the last witness home. We're at the at the station here, uh six in Jackson. And this guy, the witness lived on International by the expressway, right behind the Waterburger.

[00:53:05]>> Okay.

[00:53:06]>> So, we're going downstairs and our sergeant uh he goes, "Hey, man. What's going on?"

[00:53:10]I go, "No, we're taking this guy home.

[00:53:11]We're done. We're going to take this guy home." He goes, "Hurry up and come back." Cuz like, you know, he was we had a long day. all the detect the whole our whole crew is working and not just a person a lot of other detectives.

[00:53:21]>> Uh he goes I ordered you guys some food so hurry up and come back so you can eat you know while you do your reports you can eat some food.

[00:53:26]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:53:26]>> I said we'll be right back. So take off from the PD. It takes us you know less than 10 minutes to get there. It's close by.

[00:53:32]>> We're dropping the guy. Okay. See you later. We're coming back. We're heading back to the PD when officer Cvantes Sunonny Cvantes comes on the radio and we're I'm scanning. You know, I've always I wouldn't just be on my channel. I'm scanning the whole city, you know, because what good is a good radio if you can't hear the shooting on the east side just cuz you're on the west side, you know.

[00:53:53]>> So, Sunny comes in the radio and he's frantic. Cord, you know, I don't know what I got. I don't know what I got.

[00:53:59]Some a dead baby, a dead baby, and something about I don't know exactly how you phrased it, but >> headless [clears throat] decapitated or something along those lines.

[00:54:08]>> But his tone was >> very excited. you know, he he was he was, you know, >> the adrenaline was pumping in him. You could hear it.

[00:54:17]>> Yeah.

[00:54:17]>> So, I said, "Man, like, we got to get there and we're coming that way."

[00:54:20]Because he was at at uh >> the the location of that scene. [cough] Excuse me.

[00:54:27]>> Yeah.

[00:54:28]>> Was real close to the PD. So, we're coming back to the PD.

[00:54:31]>> Yeah. [clears throat] >> So, we're like it's it's in our in our direction of travel. So, when I get there, he's there. There's no other officers. Granted, everybody everybody that was working heard the same thing I heard.

[00:54:46]>> So everybody was also making their way over there, but when I got there, it was just sunny. And he has done another interview and Angela come out to the parents there. His unit is parked on the street right next to the apartment complex. There's a sidewalk. It's a building, a sidewalk in the street. He's parked >> right there by the by the apartment. And he's standing on the street with the couple, John.

[00:55:06]>> So So they're there at the scene.

[00:55:08]>> Yeah. This Okay. This had just happened.

[00:55:11][clears throat] So [snorts] I come up this way and I didn't park right. I mean I parked like I don't know two cars away across the street. So I get off and I'm walking to him and he's talking to them and he's like I don't know what's going on bro. I don't know.

[00:55:23]Yeah man. Some dead bodies of dead babies or something like that. And uh so my first thing was like let's get this guy in the car in case he takes off running you know because he was a young guy you know young kid >> and John.

[00:55:36]>> Yeah. you know, thin guy, you know, if he takes off running, if he really wants to run hard, it's going to be hard for a lower guy to catch him, you know, and uh by that time another officer had gotten there. So, uh I think it was Michael, he um hey, get this guy in the car. So, get him in the unit and I'm talking to Sunny and I say, "Hey, what's going on?" He goes, "Okay." Uh I was going this way or I got flagged on by this guy's his brother and his girlfriend or whatever she is. And they they said that there's a dead baby in there. I said, "Well, let's go in." So, uh, the John's brother and sister, actually, that part I don't remember, but I mean they they were there. They're the ones that >> family members. Yeah.

[00:56:15]>> Um, so when we go into the apartment and it was the main entry room was like small, the living room, really small.

[00:56:23]Like if the the a couch fit, that was like the whole wall of the of the living room.

[00:56:28]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:56:29]>> And then across was the the TV and then there was a little hallway that went down the to the back part of the apartment. But the whole apartment was like >> dirty.

[00:56:37]>> Filthy >> filthy. There's junk piled all over the place. And not just stuff out of place.

[00:56:43]I'm talking dirty. Like >> mud on the floor or like when dust collects and it gets wet, it gets like muddy. The whole house seemed like it was just filthy. Filthy.

[00:56:54]>> And um Sunny's walking in first. Now there's nobody in the apartment. It's just us that we're going in because we're going to see what's going on.

[00:57:02]Sunny's first. I'm behind him is behind me. We're going down the little hallway and the way Sunny was acting. I didn't know he had already been in there cuz he's acting like I I don't know what's going on. I don't know what's going on.

[00:57:15]And we don't know if there's who killed these babies. What's go We don't know.

[00:57:19]We don't know if there's somebody in there with a gun or a machete or whatever, you know, >> or anything. We don't know anything.

[00:57:24]We're going in there, you know, our guns are drawn and we're walking in law enforcement style, you know.

[00:57:29]>> So, Sunny's in front of me and the hallway was real narrow. So, he gets we're going down the hallway, there's a doorway on the right side of the hallway. That was the doorway to the the only bedroom of the apartment.

[00:57:41]>> Mhm.

[00:57:42]>> So, when Sunny gets to the doorway, like let's say we're here and this is the the door right here. When he's coming, he goes like this and he goes, "Oh my god."

[00:57:50]And he grabs Oh, he jumps back like he was reaction. Yeah. like he was startled. So I grabbed him and I go, "No, hold on." To me, I thought he that was the first time I' had seen the baby.

[00:58:00]Later, I found out he had already seen it, but and I talked to him afterwards like like recently actually. I say, "Yeah, I never it's it's amazing that after all these years, we never stepped on and talk about being involved in this case." And even Julion, I talked to him also recently. I'm talking about three months ago.

[00:58:18]>> Why didn't we ever talk about it? We worked together for so many years. You just move on, you know. But it would have been good for us to talk about it.

[00:58:23]you know, emotionally, you know, the mental aspect of this whole thing.

[00:58:27]>> So, Sunny jumps back and I grab him [clears throat] >> and then I look and there's a little baby on the there's a bed right on other side of the wall. The bed's right there.

[00:58:35]>> So, I tell son, "Okay, Julio, hey, back out the way you came in. It's, you know, basic law enforcement, you know, crime scene 101. If you go into a crime scene and there's nothing else to do, just walk out the same way you came in. Don't go and contaminate over there here. Just the same way you walked in, walk out like that."

[00:58:52]So I tell those guys to walk out and so now it's just me being because I wanted to see like what the hell this guy see, you know? So I look and there's a baby on the bed like right there and uh he's on his back, his feet are facing that way and his [clears throat] knees are bent up like a doll. You know the the legs you can bend them and his knees were bent up. It was rigger mortise actually but it looked like a doll. The knees were and he didn't have a head.

[00:59:18]So, the the thing that went through my mind was that the the texture of the of this doll, I thought it was a doll.

[00:59:28]You know, you seen those dolls that are hard shiny plastic and then there's dolls that have like a rubbery texture.

[00:59:33]>> Yeah.

[00:59:34]>> I thought it was that cuz it wasn't a hard shiny. It wasn't a hard shiny doll.

[00:59:38]So, I said, "Is that maybe it's that doll that has a the kind of doll that has a rubbery texture."

[00:59:44]>> So, or maybe it was just me. I didn't want to believe it was a human being.

[00:59:47]>> Exactly. denial of the baby.

[00:59:48]>> Yeah. So, I touched the baby and I said, "Oh my god, it's a it's a real baby."

[00:59:52]And his head was missing, but there was no blood anywhere. There was nothing.

[00:59:56]And just I mean, when I looked in there, I mean, I'm looking at the where the head's supposed to be. And it said the cuts were all jagged, but there was no blood. There was no blood on the bed.

[01:00:04]There was no blood leaking out like nothing. And so, I said, "Oh, wow."

[01:00:09]Okay. So, you know, it startled me, right? So, I said, "Okay." Yeah. So, I said, "Right." So I turn around and when I did that I never I didn't go in the bedroom. I was in the hallway like this and that's how close he was. I could just touch him like that.

[01:00:21]>> So I turn around and I see Sunny and July. They're barely exiting the screen the screen door.

[01:00:26]>> So I walk out and it's close. It's I don't know 20 ft or it was real close >> small apartment. And so when I get to the screen now, there's a bunch of cops here and a bunch of citizens from the civilians, you know, and everybody's like all caught up in the moment and what's going on? What's going on? So, but they're all on, you know, when I walked up the the screen door >> because you you guys didn't investigate any further at that at that moment, right? Because you're like, "Okay, we already confirmed that yes, there's a there's a date baby. Let's let's treat it as a crime scene."

[01:00:59]>> Yeah. And that's what I was going to get to.

[01:01:00]>> You guys backed up. Yeah. And so, yeah, we backed out of the crime scene. And then, you know, when I got out of the door, it's that sidewalk, then the street. So, when I got out of the screen door, I see all these cops over there because everybody heard the same thing we had, you know. So, they all went over there, you know, hey, somebody needs help. An officer needs help, everybody's going to go, right?

[01:01:17]>> Yes. Yes.

[01:01:18]>> Especially so close to the station.

[01:01:20]>> Yeah. Yeah. And then as far as detectives, well, the patrol, there were the guys that were working, they were there in that area, they all went, you know, but there was a lot of detectives because they were were still there from the previous from the earlier homicide murder. So there was a lot of detectives there. Uh so when I get on the screen door and I see I get on the sidewalk and I'm seeing all this commotion and for some reason it hit me again like wow like look at all these people like so I didn't go to where our sergeant was there talking with Angela Kamacho. Sergeant Mandiki was talking to uh Angela Kamacho. I don't know which other detectives were there at that time, but I know Mando was talking to Angela Kamacho and there was a bunch of people there and they I think they had taped it off and there were citizens around. So I cross the street just to catch my breath, you know, honestly I remember crossing the street and I had already said, "Okay, we have a homicide, you know, or we have a dead body here.

[01:02:16]It's a real human being." So, but then when I got outside and I I saw that commotion that made me not be able to go straight to where Kamacha was. That made me have to go AC across the street like where there is nobody.

[01:02:29]>> I mean it was fast. I opened the screen door like oh [ __ ] I can't do it. I gotta go straight. So I went across the street and I was like [gasps] okay. So okay come my breath. I'm talking about two or three seconds right fast. I said okay boom. This is what we do. It's a homicide. Let's get to work.

[01:02:43]So I turn around. I'm walking back. It was just a brief thing to catch my breath and hey this is our this is and our crews here. A whole person the guys who worked homicides. Yeah.

[01:02:53]>> They were all there. So, um, [clears throat] and if they weren't there, they were they were they were working. They were somewhere in near on duty, right?

[01:03:03]>> And, um, as I turn around, there's a lady that's looking right at me. There was a lot of people there, 30 people, I guess, a bunch of people.

[01:03:11]>> And there's this lady. She's looking right. And I'm still across the street.

[01:03:14]Jennos. Jennos.

[01:03:16]>> And she's looking at I mean, she's looking at my eyes. She's telling me like >> she's trying to get your attention.

[01:03:20]>> Yeah. So, Jennos, they have more kids.

[01:03:23]have more kids. So I cross the street and I she's really close to where Kamacho is, but that's why I'm thinking there was a tape or something. They was going to or they were separated maybe by an officer. I don't remember.

[01:03:33]>> Yeah. [snorts] >> So she tells me again, they have more kids. So I turn around and I ask Angela, do you have more kids? And she'll just she goes, she goes, I go, >> that's what she said.

[01:03:46]I go.

[01:03:50]So I tell Sergeant Man, we don't know the condition of these kids. Maybe they're still alive. Maybe we can save him. So now that thing about not contaminating the crime scene, that's out the window. We got to go and make sure that there's a chance that we can save somebody.

[01:04:03]So we go in a second time. Now it's me and the lead. And I want to say it was it was Julia Bjon and Sergeant Medik, but I don't know which order, but I was in the front. So when I'm walking in the second time on the floor right there where I was standing when I touched the baby on the floor >> there was a black hefty trash bag a black one. It was shiny brand new and the whole apartment's filthy like super dirty and you know it just goes to show about television. You're walking in the first time you know not knowing what to expect. We didn't know if they had three, four, five, 10 kids. We didn't know even a grandmother living with. We didn't know. I didn't know who was in the house or suspects, right? So, you're going in like this. I never even saw that plastic bag and I I was standing like right next to it when I was doing this.

[01:04:53]>> The second time I said, "Wow, that bag doesn't belong here." Cuz the whole apartment is filthy and that black that bag is shiny >> and you could tell it was around. I said, "Yeah, >> it has to be the head."

[01:05:02]>> So, I open it and it's a head. And I'm thinking it's the head to that baby, right? Who else head could it be? That baby's missing a head. I didn't know what else I was going to see. So, Julio passes me and so right on the other side of the doorway, the that was like the kitchen area and the dining room table had been knocked on its side.

[01:05:24]>> Mhm.

[01:05:25]>> Uh so it was like kind of blocking. So Julio I was going to go inside the room and Julio's going to go he passes me and he jumps over the table and I'm hearing him that he's saying I got some blood over here. I got some buckets with water and whatever he was saying. But I go into the room and uh [clears throat] the bed's right against the wall and it's all the way to the end. The bed's like that. It doesn't have a headboard. It's just in that corner. When you're walking in it was in this corner.

[01:05:53]>> On the other side of the bed there was um a dresser and there was a pile of clothes. I'm talking about >> 4 feet high of clothes. Like who does it? You take off your clothes and you just throw there. But it was like from the wall >> I mean almost the whole length of the room just a pile of clothes.

[01:06:10]>> Yeah.

[01:06:11]>> And uh it was all dirty all the clothes.

[01:06:14]And at the end of that uh that pile it was weird because you're going to be piling clothes. Eventually it's going to pile up against the wall over there.

[01:06:22]Well, there was a gap and there was a crib over there >> and I said, "Why is there an opening there?" Like that any messy person is gonna throw in it's going to fill all the way to the end. It just didn't make sense.

[01:06:34]>> Yeah. So, you know, I had work cases, you know, where, you know, there's, you know, people can be hiding under the pile of clothes, but it didn't look disturbed, like, you know, like somebody had been in there was just like uh compact, you know.

[01:06:50]>> So, I start crawling on top of this amount of clothes. I'm [clears throat] crawling to the end and um let me backtrack a little bit. On the um on the bed the second time that I went in is the orange box, the hefty box of trash bags. brand new orange. It was in the bed and the first time I went in there, I didn't see it.

[01:07:07]>> So, I said, "Man, >> they they got they bought these trash bags for this."

[01:07:11]>> Yeah.

[01:07:12]>> You know, so I'm I'm crawling on the on this mountain of clothes. I'm crawling on top of it and and then so when I get to the edge of it, it's like straight.

[01:07:21]It's not >> going down like that. It's just like you get to and it was straight. There was a crib there and uh there's a trash bag that I couldn't even see from over here.

[01:07:29]You had to get to the end of that mountain of clothes. Um, so the trash bag is leaning against that wall of clothes and it's not tilted to the side this way or that way almost like standing over.

[01:07:40]>> It was it was standing up like but it was leaning like if like if I'm going to lean on >> against the pile of of clothes.

[01:07:46]>> It was just leaning this way but it was so it was straight up. So I'm on my hands and knees and I get there like oh man I already know.

[01:07:55]>> That's what the trans packers are for. I didn't know how many kids they had. So, I didn't know what I was going to see or what was going to be in there, but I knew there was something in there.

[01:08:03]>> Mhm.

[01:08:04]>> So, I opened the bag and the two baby girls were in there.

[01:08:08]>> That that part I I didn't know they had two little girls or how many more kids they had, you know? Even after that, I still didn't know. What about if they had four, you know? But I open it and the older baby girl, Talisa, she was three. She's the one that's She's sitting down and her legs are crossed like Indian style her legs.

[01:08:32]>> Mhm.

[01:08:33]>> And she's resting up against this wall of clothes and her head's not there.

[01:08:38]It's missing. But on this on her cut, there was blood. It was bloody and jagged. So she's So when I'm looking in, she's sitting like it's like if I'm looking like this. So I'm seeing here.

[01:08:50]So down here where her legs are crossed, the infant who is Mary Jane, she was just a few months old. She's laying face down and she was so small that she fit inside the bag. The bags aren't real real wide, you know, they're 2 feet maybe or whatever, you know, wide.

[01:09:06]>> So the little baby girl, Mary Jane, was laying down face down and her neck and was in the crotch area of where Jalisa's legs were crossed and there was a head there, but it was a big head with long hair. I said that head does not belong to that baby. It was Jalisa's head.

[01:09:24]>> So the baby was there. Julisa's head was there. I don't know where Mary Jane's head was, but at that point, you know, they're they're dead. So I'm not going to be going digging in. You know, there's no need for it.

[01:09:38]So that that was that was, you know, you you go to we're talking about earlier about all the the different scenes that you see and some of the stuff that that freaks you out. I had seen a a 2-year-old boy that had been murdered, that had been uh strangulated and raped.

[01:09:55]Uh, and you know, I really didn't want to talk about this case because that family is still here. And any any >> the other one with the >> Yeah. with a 2-year-old boy.

[01:10:07]>> But that that that >> anybody that hears any details of that case, they're going to know, oh, he's talking about this.

[01:10:14]>> So, but that little boy had been raped and killed and and so that was a tough one. Uh, he was like assaulted.

[01:10:22]>> Mhm.

[01:10:22]>> But I had never seen this. Even the that with the guy with his skin stayed on the car, you know, eyes hanging out just hanging like that, you know. I just seen all >> but I never seen that, especially since they were kids.

[01:10:37]>> And that just it's one of those images like like we were saying, you know, it gets it gets engraved in your >> Oh, I can see it. I can see it right now.

[01:10:46]>> In your brain, man, in your >> It's You'll never forget that.

[01:10:51]>> That wasn't good. It was not good, man.

[01:10:54]>> So, so, so now you have a a triple homicide, right? Yeah.

[01:10:58]>> And and and so, so what do you guys do after I mean, >> okay. So, and then tell that's where I could hear Julio Bron saying I got whatever kind of evidence I remember him saying that he saw blood the buckets of what they ended up doing later on. I can tell you that they when they were cutting up these babies, they were they were putting them in the buckets to wash them off and that kind of stuff. Where where was the head of the other girl?

[01:11:24]>> Um, you know what? To be honest don't remember or what, but I always just assumed it was inside the bank. I never, you know, dug in there. Once I saw that, >> yeah, you didn't temper with it with you just left it alone. You already knew that the two bodies of the little girls were there and the baby was on the on the bed.

[01:11:43]>> And I'm telling you, uh, Big John and Annie >> Mhm. Um, July wasn't uh crime scene at the time.

[01:11:51]He was with us. So, I think it was just Manny and and and July and Bejando. They were the our crime scene investigators.

[01:11:59]I know DPS went for a little bit.

[01:12:01][clears throat] >> Mhm.

[01:12:01]>> Initially, >> Rangers or what?

[01:12:03]>> The crime scene. Their crime scene.

[01:12:05]>> Oh, their crime scene.

[01:12:05]>> Yeah. And uh but Manny and Big John, they're the ones that process. They stayed in that place forever.

[01:12:12]>> Forever. Um, so I mean I I don't I don't know where where my Jean's head was, but I'm assuming it was in there.

[01:12:20]>> Mhm.

[01:12:20]>> Uh, but so what do we do afterwards?

[01:12:22]Okay, so we we back out and somehow or other we confirmed somebody confirmed, yeah, they only have three kids. Okay, so there's no other kids that we have to be looking for. And so the crime scene is secured like nobody else going to go.

[01:12:32]Even at that point, I think they told Julio, "Hey, just back out. Just there's no there's no reason for us to be here.

[01:12:37]He's going to get a search warrant, you know, and let crime scene take over."

[01:12:41]So when we get out, Sergeant Madika says, "Hey, um I think I don't know if uh so uh Detective Clipper, Thomas Clipper, and Sammy Lucio. Uh I'm not sure if they were there or if he was talking to him on the radio or whatever, but that Sergeant Mikke gave the order that Thomas Clipper was going to be the lead investigator and that he wanted assembly issued to assist him. He wanted them to take uh or to interview John Alen Roio and he tells me I want you to interview Angela Kamacho >> and I'll get somebody else to help you.

[01:13:16]So, okay, get in the car. By now there's a lot of cops. So, everybody else >> take him back to the station.

[01:13:21]>> Yeah. And and other cops are securing the area and they stay there, you know, and I think there ranger uh that was working at that time, Lana Kasa, he was he was there. So he's probably the ones that the one that would make, you know, make the phone calls. Hey, get our our crime scene guys are here. Do that kind of stuff, you know.

[01:13:39]>> A lot of resources.

[01:13:40]>> Yeah. And um so I mean I wasn't there for that, but I know he was. I've seen pictures of him there. Some and I know him. He would do that. He would, hey, what do you need? What do you need? And he'll make it happen as far as what DPS has to provide.

[01:13:52]>> Yeah.

[01:13:52]>> So [clears throat] I get to the station and uh I don't see John. He's in the room. And as far as I know, Clipper and Sammy are interviewing him. I'm in the room with Angela and Detective uh Lee Garcia. He was a new detective that night. I think he told me a story. Not I don't remember exactly how it went, but >> I don't know if it was I think for sure was his first night shift by himself >> and he was a fairly I don't know how long he'd been a detective, but because I think he worked property crimes. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure how long he been there, but I know he was a young detective.

[01:14:26]>> Good guy. Uh, and uh, but I remember him telling me goes, "Man, thank God you guys were here because if you wouldn't have been here, I would have had to do the initial stuff of this by myself and what the heck how am I going to what what would I have done?" You know, he was he was laughing about it, man, >> that's weird because there's no way like I would have just called a sergeant, get everybody in, but since we're all there, everything happened really quick. So, everything was taken care of.

[01:14:51]>> So, he ended up helping me on the interview with Kamacho, >> with Angela.

[01:14:55]So then that's a whole another >> Yeah. Because and and that's what I was going to tell you, man. It's like [snorts] >> it's already a horrible uh [groaning] murder case with with with children.

[01:15:10]>> Yeah.

[01:15:10]>> That have been decapitated.

[01:15:13]>> But you guys have no clue that you guys are about to find out even more >> horrific details, man.

[01:15:20]>> Yeah. So, like I said, that was it's like a it's a whole different chapter.

[01:15:26]You know, this part about going in, not knowing what to expect, and then they being exposed to it and all that, you know, trauma that the initial guys went through when you see afterwards when the guys go in, they already know there's three babies, there's two in a bag, there's one in the bed, so they're going to go in, they're going to see it. Not to take anything away from them because it's so traumatizing, you know, it's emotional.

[01:15:45]>> But the first ones that went in there, you don't know. And so that was like it freaks you out.

[01:15:50]>> I don't know how else to say it. I don't want to say it scares you because it didn't scare me, but it just what the heck it throws you for loop.

[01:15:56]>> So the second part of the investigation is of course there's another part, the crime scene, the evidence. But the other part about interviewing him, that's a whole different thing. And then so I'm talking to her and she just starts, >> you know, confessing >> right out of the back.

[01:16:14]>> Yeah. I mean, it it didn't take long.

[01:16:15]Yeah. you talk to them for a little bit, you know, make feel comfortable. And >> you know, especially if they're going to start telling you, you know, gruesome details, if they >> This part was always weird, real weird.

[01:16:27]>> And you know, when I think about it, not just this case, any case when a person would confess to something pretty graphic, you know, if they tell you, hey, you know, I this is what I did and this is how I did, you like, what the hell's wrong with you, man? What what even a facial expression, they're going to shut down.

[01:16:42]>> Yeah.

[01:16:42]>> They're going to shut down. You have to be like, okay, I get you. I can see, you know, whatever. Okay. So then what happened? And then okay. Okay. So you're okay. You know, but you >> you have to show a little bit of empathy to keep him going.

[01:16:50]>> Yeah. And and or interest at least.

[01:16:52]>> Yeah. Interesting. Yeah.

[01:16:53]>> And so Okay. So then what happened you know? So and so then they then they not just Angela but a lot of cases that I work when they see that they start reliving they start getting excited about it like man you know man then this happened. You should have seen the way this happened.

[01:17:06]>> Was that the case with Angela Kamacho?

[01:17:08]Yeah. what happened with like what how does >> So she well initially she starts telling me that and I don't know if this was a planned story that they her and her husband came up with it looks like they did >> cuz they [clears throat] both could have said the same thing initially you know and they were talking about how the babies were possessed uh they were seeing the babies you know making weird noises and like sounds like the devil and at one point the sounds of um dead relatives um laughing >> that the babies were possessed [clears throat] and they came to the conclusion or the decision that the only way to rid them of this demons was to kill them.

[01:17:50]>> And so that was her story, their initial story. But when she as far as a physical thing, the not the motive, the actual killings of [clears throat] what um Angela was telling me and where you could tell she was getting excited like You know, I I I've really say this story like like I haven't said it like a hundred times, >> you know, sometimes talk about it, but this part is always the same cuz this is the part that >> that if it just I couldn't understand it. Like even if even if a serial killer where they're, you know, psychotic or whatever and and and they're they're reliving it and they're getting the the same pleasure out of the out of the actual murder when they relive it, you know, they're reliving and they're that's why they keep pictures. That's why they keep uh >> trophies.

[01:18:44]>> Yeah. Trophies to relive it. And they get the same excitement, you know, whether it's sexual or whatever it is, you know, but they relive it. So this this is she didn't how could she relive and have any kind of pride over it? She should have been like I can't believe I did this, you know. But this is the thing that I always say as far as that that interview. The part that [clears throat] the part that freaked me out was when she would she became very animated and telling me about how strong her son was.

[01:19:20]My son was so strong and I was holding him down and he was fighting, man. Like she was proud. And my son was so strong.

[01:19:27]You should have seen it. And I was holding him and he wouldn't let himself.

[01:19:30]He was really strong. She was making it seem like she was proud of him that he was a good fighter or he was a strong little boy. And I'm like, at that point, you should have been like, "What the hell's wrong with you?" But of course, I couldn't do that. I got to be okay. So, you know, not that drastic, but okay.

[01:19:45]So, then what happened? So, then she goes on to the next. Oh man. Yeah. But >> she said it like that.

[01:19:50]>> Exactly like that. Exactly like that.

[01:19:52]I'll never forget that.

[01:19:54]And she's looking at me like she said that the the knife that that John Andrew was using that it broke. My son was so strong the knife broke. So I had to go get another one. And I gave it to John like that man. Like crazy. no remorse or or or any type of emotion for her son, man.

[01:20:21]>> She was >> I mean, it was like pride, but in a in an evil way, I guess.

[01:20:25]>> Yeah, she that's the only that and you know, as far as psychology, I'm not an expert, >> but as far as psychology in to me, that's the only way she could and I'm I just not justify his own not justifying it, but like making it like some aspect of it, okay? like, man, my son was really strong. Which has nothing to do with anything, but that that's the only thing that that she could come up with in her brain at that time, you know.

[01:20:53]>> And of course, you know, u uh Clipper would come, >> man, that's that's horrible, man.

[01:21:01]>> Yeah. Yeah. Clipper would come over. He say, "Hey, what do you got? What's going on?" Then he'd go back over there with uh John Anu. I think there might have been another detective helping Sammy as well.

[01:21:10]>> So Clipper would go back and forth like, "Hey, what did she tell you?" Then he go and confront him and or tell me, "Hey man, ask her about this cuz this guy's saying this." And so he was kind of going back and forth.

[01:21:18]>> But that initial statement [clears throat] was uh it was it was typed. That's the way we used to do it in those days.

[01:21:24]>> Yeah.

[01:21:25]>> Uh videotaping had just started or audio taping.

[01:21:28]>> Um and they actually ended up doing that with John and I think uh uh Angela also that night after I took that and I think it was at least two pages, maybe three pages, I don't know. I would type it and she would as as as she was telling me I was typing I was typing and um and like in this case that that she didn't she I think she spoke English. I was she didn't speak uh English but let's say it's a person that doesn't read English.

[01:21:56]>> Yeah.

[01:21:57]>> So what we do is like we type it and then I tell okay look what I'm going to do is I'm going to get somebody that hasn't been listening to us. They don't know anything about what we're saying.

[01:22:05]they're going to translate it to you. If if it's the way you're telling me and that's what's written, we're good. If there's any changes, then we'll change it. So, another guy would come that has no knowledge of the interview. And that's how the the her or anybody else would be like, "Okay, he typed what I told him cuz that's what this guy's telling me." That's how we would do it.

[01:22:23]>> Um, so after that night and now we're talking about uh 3 or 4 o'clock in the morning. I don't know. We didn't just come in and just, you know, there's a lot of >> there's a lot of things and then you're strategizing and a lot of things that were going on.

[01:22:39]>> So, >> because people people that [clears throat] are listening, man, they they don't understand that sometimes you get a confession right away.

[01:22:45]>> Oh, yeah.

[01:22:45]>> But then in order to to to make that case better, you have to get details from them. That's why people sometimes don't understand why they keep he already did they already did confess to to killing them. the the children know, but now you need to get the whole story so you can be consistent, you know, with their statement. That way when you go to trial, man, I mean, all everything that they're saying and you can prove it with evidence and and with witnesses and all that stuff, then you make that SCA cases [clears throat] stronger.

[01:23:12]>> Yeah. Right. There's a lot that goes through it and and >> so you got to be back and forth between them, you know, like, oh, he said this, that's that's, you know, trying to explain.

[01:23:19]>> Yeah.

[01:23:20]>> So So what's the story from John and Rubio or >> Yeah. He's saying all about the demons.

[01:23:27]Yeah. About the demons and stuff, but later >> uh the investigation showed >> that, you know, there was a lot of things are going on, >> financial stuff. You know, the they were getting ready to be evicted.

[01:23:38]>> Mhm.

[01:23:39]>> Um the government aid that they were getting for one of the babies was going to be taken away.

[01:23:45]>> CPS had already investigated him once.

[01:23:48]The CPS were going to >> I think that they were getting ready to take the babies again or take them away.

[01:23:53]>> Mhm. And so they're losing their babies.

[01:23:56]They don't have any more, you know, food stamps or whatever aid they were getting.

[01:24:00]>> Um they're going to lose the baby.

[01:24:02]They're going to get evicted. And so, you know, so in their mind that they just said, "Hey, you know what? Let's just start off fresh.

[01:24:10]>> Let's get rid of the babies and start fresh." So they I they were going to, you know, get rid of the babies, you know, kill them and uh go bury bury them at the cemetery close by and go live in Matamoros. Um, >> so, so that there was a plan then.

[01:24:25]>> Yeah, there was a plan >> to to go across.

[01:24:27]>> Yeah. Um, and that's I'm saying that, you know, from conversation that I had with the detective, if I remember correctly, you know, >> that's what I was going to ask you too, Chris. Uh because uh was was there a part of uh the confession or on the interview [snorts] with Jonal Rubio that is almost the the equivalent of what >> initially >> Angelica Angelica Kamashu said about like oh you know like my son was was like did they say did he say any statements like that that you were like man >> what is going on with this guy? Yeah, that that uh John's statement, initial statement, um you know, I might have read it, you know, but I just don't remember, you know.

[01:25:08]>> Yeah, >> cuz what ended up happening was that after that night and I and I did my report for everything that I did, which I may have finished I don't I doubt if I finished that night, but I for sure I finished it the next day.

[01:25:20]>> The next day >> of everything that happened, everything from from the beginning to the end of my last contact with Angela. And then after that, the first case I had to finish that. So Sammy and Luc Sammy and Clipper, they took over this case 100% on their own with the help of >> whoever else they needed.

[01:25:40]>> And so I was not in this case. After that first night, I didn't touch this case at all ever again because I was working the first case as far as tying up and to get it ready for, you know, submission for the indictment and all that stuff.

[01:25:53]>> Yeah.

[01:25:54]>> You know, I still had to go. We got the fire department to go and the the divers to go and look for a gun and a rasaka. I mean, there's a lot of other things that that had to be done. So, I was I didn't even touch this case anymore. I went to another case.

[01:26:05]>> Yeah.

[01:26:05]>> The the next day I finished.

[01:26:07]>> You did what what we call you know your supplement for that night to support the investigation of the the lead investigators and then >> after that I was go back to your case.

[01:26:15]>> I was working the case from the earlier in the day.

[01:26:18]>> Yeah.

[01:26:18]>> So, u I know I've seen I remember seeing because I can see it in my mind. So, I just don't know if I saw the whole video because they ended up taking videos >> um if I read statements or heard the audios, you know, I but I mean I just have some kind of memory that, you know, of stuff that he was saying and of what the detectives, you know, me and Sammy used to sit next to each other, you know.

[01:26:39]>> Yeah.

[01:26:39]>> So, I know we had conversations.

[01:26:42]Uh but uh I don't remember hearing anything about him describing the actual >> some some kind of evil statement or or anything that he might have said during the interview.

[01:26:53]>> Yeah, he he was saying stuff that like the the babies were possessed and he even that they had I think hamsters or something like that and the hamsters were making noises and so he killed them and and stuff like that, you know. So, so I I I did a little Google search actually this morning, you know, because I was like, man, you know what doing and and I'll be honest, I I do I do not know a lot of the about this case, you know, well, until now that you're telling me about all this, but uh so I did a little Google search and I found like an affidavit from the court of appeals, you know, because I guess throughout the years this guy was appealing his conviction and all that. So on on some of the details that are there, you know, he talks about like, man, they were possessed the kids, so we had to kill him and all that. But it says something that after they they kill and decapitated [snorts] the the children.

[01:27:52]>> Mhm.

[01:27:53]>> He made her have sex with the >> with a boy.

[01:27:56]>> Oh, no.

[01:27:58]>> Or with or >> No, they had they had sex with each other.

[01:28:01]>> Yeah. Yeah, >> they took a shower and then went to have sex. And I think that they actually I'm sorry. I think they they had did that after the the the two girls were killed >> and then they took a shower, had sex, and then they then they killed the last one, which I'm thinking was the the boy.

[01:28:17]>> Something like that. But yeah, they did >> something horrific, man. That I didn't know. Yeah.

[01:28:22]>> Yeah. something stupid like like you know they want to say that they're insane that they're crazy they're you know it's it's I don't want to use the word crazy but it's crazy that they would do that >> but they're not insane >> they're not insane you know I I worked at the county jail for a year and three months before I worked with Brown >> CBD [clears throat] >> and >> and let me go even further back to some of my exposure when I was a little kid my mom >> was a registered nurse and at some point in her career, she ended up in San Antonio and I was little and I went I don't know if I don't remember because I was really little, but I know we lived I want to say it was San Antonio. I'm pretty sure it was. And she was working at a some a state hospital for mental patients. So I would I went in there and I saw people that are lost. I at an early age I saw people that were insane completely out of their minds. Yeah, >> I know what a an insane person looks like. At the county jail, >> we would have inmates that were in in like a single cell, >> the padded cell.

[01:29:28]>> Yeah. You know, you you walk by to do your your your your rounds, you know.

[01:29:32]>> Yeah. Your rounds.

[01:29:33]>> And you see all these prisoners, they're living the life that they live, normal, watch TV, fighting, whatever they're doing, you know, but they're living their life. And then you walk by these guys and they [snorts] have a bowl eating their feces like, "Hey, hey, what's up, Ortiz?" Like nothing. Like that's out of your mind.

[01:29:47]>> Yes. Yes. And they're or maybe they want to see what it is, but they just look at you like, "Hey, look, what are you doing?" And they're eating >> Yeah.

[01:29:52]>> pieces, you know, drinking your like I know what an insane person looks like.

[01:29:56]These are not. They typed up the wall.

[01:29:58]This guy's >> It's like they say, you know, like the crazy p person doesn't know he's crazy.

[01:30:03]He just acts, >> you know, like he's not going to say, "Oh, sir, it's cuz I'm I'm I'm crazy."

[01:30:08]No.

[01:30:08]>> Yeah. I guarantee you if like I don't know if you ever saw this video of uh I don't know where it was. I don't know. I don't know was in hu I don't even know it was in Texas but there was a guy that was some uh interstate a highway and >> I I want to say he was on some kind of drugs or something but he was eating another guy there eating him like an animal >> Yes. Yes. This is when when one of those new drugs those synthetic drugs were were getting popular. They're like zombie.

[01:30:35]>> Yeah. So the cops get there and he's still eating it. He didn't know. He didn't know. I guarantee you that. And and there and there's people like that that they could be doing something like way out there and uh 10 cops would see them see him and they turn around. You just keep on doing it because he doesn't he doesn't know he's doing something wrong. These people they had tape there on the back door. They had nailed it shut and they had put tape duct tape around the seams the edges of the door for the smell. I'm guessing uh they were preparing to leave >> preparing for this, >> you know, they had even cleaned with bleach, you know, and then they were putting the babies in the in the plastic bags, you know, a crazy person, an insane person is not going to think that, you know, >> ju just just uh that uh the fact that they had they they went to the store to buy contractor those black trash bags, right? That's that's the the the intent, man. That's the pre [clears throat] the premeditated, right? They have a plan.

[01:31:29]>> They know what they're going to do. And then like you're saying, they probably seal that for the smell because that way they can be, you know, farther away, I guess, or across the border.

[01:31:38]>> I don't know if they did if they bought all the stuff before the murders, but even so, even after the murders, like, hey, they realized it is. If they hadn't realized it is something wrong, they would have gone to all that effort to cover it up.

[01:31:47]>> Yeah.

[01:31:48]>> They knew they did something wrong.

[01:31:49]>> Yeah.

[01:31:50]>> You know, so that's there's just there's no way around it, you know.

[01:31:53]Unfortunately, you know, anybody can say >> Oh, you know what? some of the other details that that I remember from that affidavit that I found online. You know, it said that they they washed the b the the bodies after they got decapitated.

[01:32:04]Man.

[01:32:04]>> Yeah, for sure. The boy because that's what I'm telling you about that that's why his legs were bent up because they had him in the bucket, those five gallon buckets.

[01:32:10]>> Mhm.

[01:32:10]>> And so they had him in there and his leg I'm assuming his legs were up. So when the rig and mortar set in his legs, so when he's laying on his back, his little legs were, you know, bent like that towards his chest.

[01:32:22]>> It was because he was in the bucket. So they Yeah, they were and you could, you know, that they found that there was bleach all over the place, >> man. That that that case, man, I mean, like I said, I was it happened during my military years with with the Marine Corps, so I I [clears throat] don't know much about it until, you know, like >> I guess the appeal. I know he he he had a retrial and then he was found guilty again, something like that, right?

[01:32:46]>> Uh so, but it's something that affected Bronzeville for for a long time.

[01:32:51]>> Yeah. Yeah, it did. I you know, [clears throat] like I was saying a while ago that you I have a lot of friends that are not law enforcement, you know.

[01:33:04]>> Mhm.

[01:33:04]>> Or we get together, you know, have barbecues or watch football, whatever, you know, you start talking and throughout the years when I have had this conversation with a few people >> Yeah. uh they tell me I remember that guy from this or I remember that from there or whatever you know or or they're curious you know how could you know so but everybody in their own way just by hearing about it >> and these conversations that I have that I've had with them uh you could tell that uh that they were affected back then like they're the way they're oh I remember hearing about that oh yeah so I guess it takes you back to >> it takes them back to that time when they were hearing about it. Um I'm I'm assuming I guess I don't know and even if they haven't I I can't think I don't I mean it's going to be rare if there's somebody in Brazil that hasn't heard about this case.

[01:34:00]>> Yeah, I know.

[01:34:01]>> Everybody's heard about it, you know, >> man. All over the the the country, man.

[01:34:05]Like that that case was was everywhere, man. I think now >> how do you go home after that night back to your house, man? You know, like, [snorts] >> you know, I was going back to the the two-year-old little boy. My son at that time was two back, not during this case, but that your other case, >> the other case. Yeah.

[01:34:25]>> And we worked, you know, a couple days without stopping. And man, I would just go home and hug my son. Like, man, please God, just take care of my son.

[01:34:33]Please don't ever let anything happen to him, you know? So, the question you're asking me now is like, of course, by that time, my my kids were older, you know, and I was divorced. They didn't live with me. Um, but I I remember uh a few days afterwards, >> I was uh reading the newspaper, you know, back before you all >> internet stuff. I was reading the newspaper and I saw that they're going to have uh funeral services for the babies. And I remember telling myself, man, you know what? You got to go over there. Got to go and see those kids because I didn't want my last memory to be that. I didn't want that. Yeah. The looking inside the neck >> and the other baby and then the baby on the bed. I didn't because I didn't know if next week, next month, next year, 5 10 20 40 years from now, >> Yeah.

[01:35:26]>> I'm going to [ __ ] freak out, you know, cuz it could happen.

[01:35:29]>> Yeah.

[01:35:29]>> And I and and you know, sometimes I I want to say I'm good. I know that for sure I have PTSD. And it's not just because of this case. There's a lot of stuff, right?

[01:35:39]>> But this definitely didn't help. Uh but so I went because I didn't want that to be my last memory. And um man, I went and talked to the director of the funeral home and there's not a lot of people there, just a few people.

[01:35:55]>> I talked to the funeral director and I said, "Hey, this is who I am. This is why I'm here." And I really feel like I need to see those kids. He felt he felt me. He goes, "Yeah, you know, you're probably right." So he went to go talk to some family members. I don't know who was there. And they stepped out.

[01:36:12]And so he goes, "Yeah, come on in." So I went in there and man, they did an awesome job on them, bro.

[01:36:20]They I mean, you could see bruises on them. But they did an awesome job on those kids, you know? We all hear, you know, people say, "Oh man, my kid is so pretty." And and sometimes they're not, you know, >> but these kids were really pretty.

[01:36:33]>> They they they were like to me, they look good.

[01:36:38]>> [clears throat] >> They they let you open the the the >> caskets were open. They had like the little girls that had a dress and all of them had their clothes up to their neck, you know, so you couldn't see that >> and um I'm you know I'm assuming they had stitch stitched them together, you know, but all the injuries were covered.

[01:36:52]The only thing you could see was a little bit of bruising here and there, >> but man [clears throat] and they were just there laying in all dressed up with their hair combed, peaceful, and they look really pretty to me. They look really pretty, man.

[01:37:08]>> Man, because you had seen the worst of the worst.

[01:37:10]>> And that's and that's exactly what I was hoping for. I said, man, that this would be my last memory, not >> the first time I saw them. And I I did good.

[01:37:20]>> Yeah.

[01:37:20]>> Uh those cases, the the one from the earlier in the day and the Trump homicide, it was weird because they both went to trial a year later during the same week.

[01:37:30]>> And so I was running to this courtroom and this courtroom, running and testified in both both of them. And so on the on the ROI case, they had me read the statement that I typed out. And so I was reading it and I had been good all year. I had worked more homicides, seen more dead bodies, you know, didn't live my life, you know, you know, watch football, whatever I was doing, you know.

[01:37:55]>> Yeah.

[01:37:56]>> And uh and I was good. Well, I was reading the statement. I was reading and reading and reading and all of a sudden I don't even know what point in the statement that I got to man like I got this massive lump in my throat like I couldn't even breathe. I just in the middle of a word it seemed like and like even right now It's exactly what happened in the trail.

[01:38:34]Exactly like that. And it doesn't happen all the time, but it's there because you go back to see them [snorts] on their coffins, >> I guess. No, not in the coffin. Just the whole thing.

[01:38:43]>> Yeah.

[01:38:44]>> But anyway, I was reading the statement that happened. Can we take a break? No.

[01:38:49]Just >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, man. Let's take a pause.

[01:38:56][snorts] So, um, [clears throat] >> when I was reading the statement that happened, man, >> some people would say that, man, that was perfect for the jury to see that that wasn't maintain. That was not intent. That's my that's not my intent right now. I don't believe me. You know, there's a there's there's a detective that [clears throat] that he swears that he's struggling with it. And he told me, I'm not going to say his name.

[01:39:26]>> Yeah. [snorts] Because I'll never do anything recordings and stuff like that because if I ever break down then that [ __ ] is going to see me crying and I don't want him see that has any power over me.

[01:39:38]>> I don't want that [ __ ] to see me like this.

[01:39:40]>> Yeah.

[01:39:40]>> And I was like, >> you know, that's pretty good.

[01:39:43]>> And that that's why he never talks because he doesn't want to give John and Lu any power over him.

[01:39:50]>> And his mind he's thinking that [snorts] >> and you know he's an ex-Marine.

[01:39:54]>> Yeah. He's told me stories of, you know, [ __ ] that he went through before he became a cop.

[01:39:59]>> Yeah.

[01:40:00]>> Like bad stuff, you know, and so yeah, he's he's got PTSD, you know.

[01:40:07]>> Yeah.

[01:40:08]>> Um that that's that's when that's why I asked you, Chris, and and it wasn't just to put you in that spot like honestly, man. I just because I've been there in that in that in that in that in that feeling, man.

[01:40:21]uh [snorts] where I don't know like it's not normal to see all this death but especially with children and the case that I that that that I want to tell you about is with a little girl. She she wasn't killed but she was sexually assaulted. Oh man, I worked a case like that.

[01:40:39]>> And [snorts] man, I'm I'm thinking about her right now and I, >> you know, it just because of what she told the mom, you know, like she was trying to make she was trying to be strong for the mom, dude, like like seven years old and trying to be strong to to to because she was seeing her mom sad >> about what happened to her.

[01:41:04]>> Mhm. So >> she was trying to comfort her mother.

[01:41:06]Yes.

[01:41:06]>> And she was a victim.

[01:41:08]>> Yes. Seven years old man trying to tell her mom.

[01:41:12]I'm good mom. I'm a different person.

[01:41:14]She wanted her hair to be cut.

[01:41:16]>> Mhm. [clears throat] >> To show that that she was going to be strong for her.

[01:41:20]>> Dude, that broke me, man.

[01:41:24]>> And she during the interview with with with a with the mom, she actually saw it. She was like sir.

[01:41:32]And I was like, "No, no, no, no. Let's keep going. You know, I tried to play it off, but she knew as he saw, you know, it happens, man.

[01:41:38]>> Yeah.

[01:41:39]>> You know, but I I I guess in a in a way what you did in the long run, I guess it helps out because like you're saying, you don't want [snorts] that last memory to be them in a trash bag, >> you know? I I I know it's weird because that image is still there, but in a way, you know, the mind goes back at least to be like, okay, a little bit of closure >> and they had a decent like normal [snorts] >> uh funeral service, you know, since >> the the the persons that are supposed to protect them the most were the one that murdered them, [clears throat] you know, >> but but at least some other family member can have that peace of knowing that, you know, that guess they were back together to have a decent >> the >> you know the as far as I could tell the only ones that the only family that there [clears throat] that those kids probably had cuz it wasn't even the grandmother cuz she was let them out of >> I don't want to see bad words to her about her but >> a prostitute. No, the mom of of John Allen was a >> pro. She was worthless. She was worthless. I would see her drunk and drinking [clears throat] afterwards like nothing, you know. Mhm.

[01:42:49]>> And uh but the brother, John's brother, the when that's why if John's brother wouldn't have gone to visit, >> we might have never found the kids. But John's brother went to go and visit his brother and his nephew and his nieces.

[01:43:08]He was with his I don't know if it was his wife or his girlfriend. They went to go visit, you know, John >> and the family.

[01:43:15]>> And when they get there, John says, "Hey, bro. right now is not a good time.

[01:43:19]And those kids, I'm assuming they're rambunctious, you know, they were they're little, you know, three-year-old uh a little over a year and, uh, you know, a couple of months, but I can see them that they'd be, you know, running around being kids, you know, and so when the guy, the brother got there and he the John says, "Hey, bro, right now is not a good time." He goes, "What are you talking about?" Like, "No, it's not a good time." He because he was screened. He see Angela sitting on the sofa and he noticed [clears throat] how come the kids aren't running around screaming being the way they always are.

[01:43:49]>> Mhm.

[01:43:50]>> And he go like what what's going on?

[01:43:52]Where are the kids? So he's the one that went into the room and saw >> what happened >> the baby boy in the bed. So when he came out he asked Tom what the hell did you do? What's wrong with you? What did you do? So that's when he didn't have a cell phone. And so they were running to the PD is close by. It's a few blocks away.

[01:44:12]him and his the girl, I don't know if it's his wife or her girlfriend, they were running to the PD to go and tell somebody what they had seen. That's when they see Senantis driving by and they flagged him down.

[01:44:22]>> But the reason I bring that up is because, see, they went to go visit their family. That guy went to go and visit his brother, his sister-in-law, his nieces, and his nephew. He went to go and visit him. And in my mind, I think he's the only one that ever went to go visit him. all the other people that were >> didn't care. I to me I don't I've never heard a story of >> these people John and Angela taking the kids to go and visit.

[01:44:46]>> No other family member was there like to show a little kind of like >> in the funeral where I went to the funeral home >> there was people there so the not to put him down but I don't think they were close but this guy the brother I think he was cuz he went to go visit him.

[01:44:59]>> Yeah he was >> even if it was the only time he visited him at least he went to go and visit him while they were alive you know.

[01:45:03]>> Yeah. So the other people I don't know I don't I don't want to say they never visited him because I don't know but >> the I've never heard any stories of where you know John would and they got into when they did their interviews they got into their history and stuff like that you know where you go to school how do you live your life and there's nothing about oh yeah we used to go to barbecue with you know >> this person my uncle whatever or aunt whatever you know none of that and I think these people just since this is since John and Angela and his mother >> Mhm. Mhm.

[01:45:33]>> They were living a life that was all messed up, you know, just >> messed up.

[01:45:39]>> Yeah.

[01:45:40]>> And so I think, you know, people just kind of just kind of stayed away from them.

[01:45:45]>> Their lives were not good.

[01:45:47]>> Yeah. I mean I mean it's is it's no excuse, but you know, like you know, like some people have a tough life, man.

[01:45:55]I I bet you he was probably abused and and and and had a rough childhood. You know, >> there's a lot of people >> like I'm saying like I mean that guy is completely evil. It doesn't it doesn't take you know I'm not trying to excuse anything. I'm just saying man >> we don't know but but but man there there's some >> some people out here that have it rough man.

[01:46:15]>> Yeah.

[01:46:16]>> Imagine grandma's you don't have a loving grandma in in that case you know like >> nobody's probably ever visiting >> Yeah.

[01:46:24]>> them. I mean he he's the only one.

[01:46:26]>> Yeah. I mean, there's no telling what kind of kind of life these babies would have, you know, lived, you know, but like you said, there's a lot of people that that had it hard. And the the hard life those kid had was poverty.

[01:46:41]>> Mhm. I don't I for some reason I don't know it's because I didn't hear about it or whatever but I don't think there was um abuse towards them but the life that I know they did the part of their life that I know they did live bad was the poverty they just didn't have resources.

[01:47:00]>> Mhm. But I know a lot of people that that have live that grew up like that and even with abuse and they upon them took it upon themselves to say hey you know what I'm going to live a better life.

[01:47:13]>> Yeah.

[01:47:13]>> I know a lot of people like that personally.

[01:47:16]>> Personally, >> you know that that they you know it's all up to you.

[01:47:21]>> Yeah.

[01:47:21]>> You know exactly. It's all up to you, man. Because you can use all that uh I I guess that that hard life to use it as motivation for your future, man. But it's up to you only, you know, like >> uh and yes, I do know a bunch of people that had a childhood like that that that end up having a good life because they wanted [snorts] >> to to to give give a different opportunity to their kids. You know what I mean?

[01:47:48]>> Or to themselves also. Yeah, >> man. Some something has to be done, man, about about uh assistance or help for for cops after after retirement or, you know, like years of service because uh I was talking to another friend of mine that that was here on the podcast how uh me, you know, as a as as a veteran, like it's a it's way easier for for military guys to get help after, you know, [clears throat] after their their their service, after their careers as as in the military, >> but you don't hear and and maybe there is, but but but it's not as easy for a cop, you know, for a police officer that after so many years of service to to get this kind the same type of assistance, >> you know, because >> obviously there's there's there's a mental factor to all this, you know, >> we we all get affected by all this, you know, like I saying, it's not normal to see all this death in in a short amount of time, you like it's not normal man.

[01:48:52]So obviously all this goes to something >> and and >> they they uh you know they offer counseling initially you know >> um and it's good. I never >> I always I don't need that. I don't need that you know but it from what I've seen a lot of the stuff kicks in like years later.

[01:49:16]>> Yes.

[01:49:16]>> It doesn't happen at that time you know.

[01:49:18]>> No it does. So I don't know but you know this talking about all this stuff you know the research says you know from experts that talking about it helps whatever that's not you know necessarily why I'm here you know I thought it would be u and I knew eventually we're probably going to talk about the case but there's a lot of other um cool stuff you know >> um and I don't know if we're getting to the point where we can wrap this So, but that would be cool.

[01:49:50]>> Even I mean let's let's let's try to end it on a good note. You know what I mean?

[01:49:54]Like there's a lot of uh also uh cases that bring you a lot of uh joy or or that are very rewarding, right? That that that I have and I try to sometimes focus on that, you know, like >> where where people actually give you thanks, man.

[01:50:09]>> [clears throat] >> I >> I'll be forever grateful for helping me out with this, you know, like >> so so if you can maybe share one of one experience like that that comes to mind.

[01:50:18]>> There's a lot of those cases because my thing >> was I like I used to coach little league baseball, >> you know, and I love sports, you know, and this thing with the I coach league baseball because of my sons. I coached them and you know and and they were good and we had good teams and stuff and >> but I ended up being because of my personality like very successful winning championships getting [laughter] to the to the playoffs really.

[01:50:46]>> Yeah, you know, but I was just a coach.

[01:50:48]I wasn't playing. But >> I could motivate these kids to man even if we had >> not a lot a lot of good players in their minds. They thought they were all all of them, >> you know. And so that was part of my motivation to but that was my big skill.

[01:51:02]>> And I I've told people like >> I'll say it right now. Maybe I shouldn't leave. But I can I'm a good motivator.

[01:51:09]>> I I can convince people to hey, you know what? This is the right thing to do if I really want to.

[01:51:13]>> Yeah.

[01:51:14]>> I shouldn't have said that because now people, hey, you're [ __ ] with me. I'm not going to [laughter] but but but but in a good way. But but in a good way like like if like like if this is what you should be doing >> then I'm going to tell you hey you know this is what you should be doing you know and that's that's not [ __ ] that's the truth anyway.

[01:51:29]>> So I I really enjoyed that part of my life and I was a detective and I'd get off of work and you know fly to the practice field. I would change like a red light put my shirts on you know and then I get there and good man let's go let's go and I was my go my guys are going to run. I'm running with you.

[01:51:45]we're going to do. And I was just like the parents, hey, they want their kids to be on my team.

[01:51:50]>> And so I always enjoyed that part of, you know, training these guys and teaching them like and they were little kids, you know, but I would tell them, hey, you know, if you if you think that you're an athlete right now and, you know, in a couple of years you're going to be, you know, like next year you're going to be in junior high and then after that you're going to be in high school, they're not going to be babying you. We got to get this, you know. So I was kind of trying to get these guys to grow up.

[01:52:11]>> And I like that >> and I definitely did it with my sons. I definitely, you know, pushed them, you know.

[01:52:17]>> Uh but um what I wanted to say was that in law enforcement, like during that time when I was working burglaries, a [clears throat] lot of those burglars were juveniles, you know, and so I had a lot of opportunities to talk to these kids. And every time that I had an opportunity, I would I would talk to, hey, bro, like what's what's going on in your life, man? What's what are the issues, you know? And then someone said, "Nah, [ __ ] you." And someone would say, "Well, it's cuz this." Okay. Well, then, you know, so I helped a lot of people.

[01:52:47]>> There was this one kid. He was um he was old. I think he was like 16 and he was like in eighth grade or something.

[01:52:55]>> And he was a big guy.

[01:52:56]>> Mhm.

[01:52:57]>> And [clears throat] uh so he had assaulted a teacher. I guess this is before BSD police came in.

[01:53:04]>> And so I pick him up and I'm talking to the guy and and so I say, "Bro, like what's what what's going on with you?

[01:53:10]Like what what are your issues?" And at first he was like, "Nah, bro. Okay, I heard it before. You know, you're not going to hurt my feelings, but I'm just asking. I'm being honest, you know."

[01:53:19]>> So I, you know, I got to him. He goes, "Man, it's cuz I don't know how to read, bro." I go, "Okay." And this [ __ ] teacher, she puts me on the front of everybody and she wants me to read. She knows I don't know how to read.

[01:53:32]>> And I She puts me in front of all these stupid [ __ ] you know? She makes me look like an idiot.

[01:53:36]>> She knows I don't know how to read and she does it on purpose. was like, "Well, have you told the principal that if she doesn't know and she's doing it to you on purpose, somebody needs to know?" I tell the principal, but they don't give a [ __ ] I said, "Man." Well, anyway, he put you in the holidays. So, I go to Walmart. I don't know where. I got some kind of learning aids like like hooked on phonics type of thing, you know.

[01:53:55]>> Yeah.

[01:53:56]>> So, I got I go back to his house and had he he didn't go to detention center or whatever. He he he got released. So, I go to his house and I broke like, "What are you doing here?" I go, "Bro, I got this for free, man." M goes, "What is it?" I go, "Yeah, dude. Just [clears throat] learn how to read practice. This will help you." I go, "Man, if it does help you and you you ever see me in the road somewhere in the future, tell me. And if it doesn't or you just throw it away, that's your choice. But here it is." He goes like, "Why are you doing this?" Cuz I care, bro.

[01:54:23]I always cared about the I always tried to help those kids.

[01:54:26]>> Yeah, man.

[01:54:26]>> You know, and there was other another kid that I saw him one time years later at the convenience store. Hey, Mr. Look, look, this is my wife, my baby. I'm working over here. Another lady, she's a bus driver for the school district.

[01:54:39]Every time she she saw me, she goes, "No, I don't know what you tell my son, but he's completely changed."

[01:54:43]>> Yeah.

[01:54:44]>> You know, and [clears throat] so and you see this is a lot of the stories that people don't hear about, man. You know, you know how cops like we were automatically the the enemy.

[01:54:55]>> Yeah.

[01:54:56]>> You know, like it has come like that, you know, like it is what it is. But but that's that's what it is.

[01:55:01]>> People hate us, man. Like is But they don't hear about these stories, man. you know, >> and people like uh a couple they were at the station. I don't know what the hell they're doing there. And uh the kid was acting up and hey officer, can you what what's wrong with you? What if he ever does need help? He's not going to want to ask for help because [laughter] like no.

[01:55:24]>> Yeah. Yeah. You know, >> we we don't want to do that. We want him to ask us for help if he needs help, not to be afraid of us.

[01:55:31]>> Yeah. Yeah. you know, and you know, like cuz I have four children, my two boys and my my two daughters, and they're they're they're all older >> and they're living their lives. you know, they have their success and, you know, everybody has their struggles, but they're doing good, you know, but I I always, >> especially when they were younger, you know, would, you know, try to give them, you know, analogies of different things, you know, like, hey, you got to move forward, you know, keep on taking your steps and or they would let me know that they're feeling down or whatever. I try to pick them up and and sometimes even without them asking me, I'd still be trying to get in their brain and trying to lift them up. You know, that's our job as parents, right? Um, you some days I was more successful than others, but you know, overall that's that was my main objective to try to be >> a good father, you know. So then when I dealt with these kids, it was like I'm not saying they were my kids, but I wanted to give them >> help him somehow.

[01:56:23]>> Yeah. But let me So this this um this guy, he had polio and [clears throat] uh >> when I was a rookie cop, he I would see him. He'd be walking in downtown with a basket limping and stuff and his basket was full of it. It was a homeless guy.

[01:56:39]>> Yeah.

[01:56:40]>> It was always dirty and stuff >> and um so he was he had a real bad attitude. He was bitter and he hated cops, but he was just pissed off at life and he didn't get a good deck, you know, good uh his the card that he wasn't dealt a good hand.

[01:56:57]>> Yeah.

[01:56:58]>> And um but it was nobody's fault, you know, including his, >> but he was very bitter and he'd walk by, shoot the finger at you and drive back, he shoot the finger at you or cuss at you or whatever.

[01:57:09]>> Well, one day I was a rookie cop and uh we had a big freeze, so I was working the morning stuff. We're in roll call and uh the supervisor says, "Hey man, this free water lines are breaking. It's it's freezing outside and uh the city opened up a shelter here and here." One was at the civic center.

[01:57:26]>> Uh so if you see, you know, your your local people that are on the street or whatever, if they need help, let them know.

[01:57:32]>> So I get out of course and that's what I would do all the time. I get a real I go straight to all my hot spots that I Okay. And I would see guys like they say they're partying. Okay, I know you're partying and you're partying and now I'm going to go back. But I would have, you know, where they so I was going down the the market square in the alley the green dumpsters and in between the dumpsters there's a pile of cardboard and as I was driving by saw the cardboard move like what the heck like I knew is there somebody in there or what? So I get off and I pick it up and it's that guy the guy the polio guy the homeless guy he's freezing. He had been sleeping there all night long. He was freezing.

[01:58:09]>> He's like freezing. urinated himself.

[01:58:12]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:58:13]>> You know, had covered faces, defecated himself.

[01:58:17]>> And I said, "Man, >> this guy like he looked at me like, oh, like he was >> freezing to death."

[01:58:22]>> Yeah.

[01:58:23]>> And now I I have always said, "How stupid. Why don't I just call EMS and let him come?" It was a medical call.

[01:58:30]>> Yeah.

[01:58:30]>> But me, I was a rookie. Like, I didn't know any I'm thinking the shelters, you know, let's get this guy some help.

[01:58:36]>> So, I pick him up. He's full of poop and stuff, right? I pick him up and I throw him in the back seat and I told this [ __ ] "Hey, I'm going with this guy to the civic center." So I get over there and I tell some guys, "Hey man, help me out with this guy." We take him, they have showers, take off all his clothes for the manga. They start washing him.

[01:58:53]He's on the floor.

[01:58:54]>> So I said, "I'll be right back." So I go to downtown, they have the secondhand, the youth clothing. I get this guy some shoes, some thick socks, some underwear, pants, shirts, jackets, beanie hat, gloves, everything. I got him everything. And I go back and I say, "Hey, bro. Like, here's some stuff. I'll see you later. I'm taking off." Never saw that guy again. I never saw him in the street. And >> years pass and um I end up with an injury. I had broken my shoulder. So, I'm going to this therapist and I'm in when I go in there, there's a bunch of patients and I see this guy, the polio guy, clean as could be, his complexion is healthy, his hair is combed, and he's the life of the party. I mean, all the therapists are there all he's got everybody laughing. He's the laugh at the party and I'm there doing my therapy watching this guy like what the hell happened to this guy like what happened >> to be the opposite. Yeah.

[01:59:47]>> And he he I know he saw me.

[01:59:49]>> Uhhuh.

[01:59:50]>> And but I I never talked to him. I don't want to say hey man you know embarrass him whatever.

[01:59:54]>> So one night and I've been going for the before I guess about a week.

[01:59:57]>> Mh.

[01:59:58]>> And uh so I'm on site waiting. I had I was going to get picked up. So I was waiting for my ride and this guy wheels the guy the the patient out. He wasn't me Wilter. He goes, "Hey, you're going to be here for a while." Go, "Yeah." He goes, "Can you watch him for a little bit? I need to go in, but they're going to come pick him up right now." I said, "Okay." So now it's night time. It's just me and him.

[02:00:14]And so I said, "Hey, bro, do you remember me?" And he goes, "Yeah, you're the one that saved my life."

[02:00:23]>> No way.

[02:00:24]>> Yeah. I said, "What?" He goes, "Dude, you're the one that saved my life." I said, "What are you talking about?" He goes, "You carried me, took me over there, man." After that, the people over there started making phone calls and this big wheel started spinning.

[02:00:35][clears throat] So, I started getting help. I got I have housing that the car was coming. Look, that's my car. There's a driver. I got housing. I got, you know, the food help with the food. I don't know food stamps, whatever. But he got housing, food stamps, um providers, all kinds of stuff. He goes, "I'm here."

[02:00:51]And and it's all because of that that day when you took me there. and other people, they picked up where you left off and he started making all these phone calls and got him all this assistance.

[02:01:01]>> He goes, I'm cold, man. I'm living a good life. [clears throat] But it was that day when you picked me up in the alley.

[02:01:06]>> So he didn't forget.

[02:01:08]>> That was And I was like, man, if I never solve another case in my life, I can retire right now.

[02:01:13]>> When he that night when he told me that, I remember thinking I was like, wow, you know what? I can retire. I'm good.

[02:01:18]>> I can retire right now and feel like I did something good. you know. So, yeah, there's a lot of good there's a lot of good stuff.

[02:01:24]>> That's a great story, man. It is. That's a great story, man.

[02:01:28]>> Maybe [snorts] we should end it right there, [laughter] >> man. And and that's what I tell people.

[02:01:33]I tell people, man, dude, always, man, like like yes, you always have to be in this job, right? You have to be in the defensive all the time, you know? You gota you got to treat like this job as it is. It's a serious job. You can lose your life in a moment, right?

[02:01:47]>> But at the same time, man, man, remember the reason why you joined to to to be a police officer, you know, because maybe throughout the years that feeling gets lost, but if you go back to the beginning, everybody everybody every single one of us share the same thing is to help people.

[02:02:07]>> Yeah.

[02:02:08]>> So I said, man, go back to that, man.

[02:02:10]Tap a little bit to that and and when you truly feel that you can help someone, do it, man.

[02:02:14]>> Yeah.

[02:02:15]>> Because that's [clears throat] going to reward you. And this is me learning from experience, right? you know, like like after the years, I'm like, dude, this is the most rewarding. This is the only way you can survive by doing good, you know, and remembering what was the original reason that that you joined, you know, like >> so so you know, it's it's great to to hear a story like that.

[02:02:35]>> Yeah. you know, history warning and and you know, I was having a conversation with one of my sons the other day and and you know, he he's a sergeant with a county at the county jail and uh we're talking like, "Hey, you know, it's an honorable job. That's an honorable job, you know, and but all of my children, they're they're like in education."

[02:02:58]>> Mhm.

[02:02:58]>> Um except him. He he's at the the jail, right? He's a sergeant there. And uh there's no telling what he's going to end up doing. Mhm.

[02:03:06]>> But uh the the education, it's an honorable job, you know.

[02:03:10]>> It is.

[02:03:11]>> Um one of my daughters a counselor, my son is a teacher, teaches sports, and my other daughter, she's got two black belts and she teaches also. [laughter] >> So, so you know, like I said, you know, do something that you know, honorable. To me, that's good.

[02:03:27]You might not be rich.

[02:03:29]>> Yeah.

[02:03:29]>> But if it's something honorable, that's something that you can be proud of.

[02:03:33]>> Yeah.

[02:03:35]All right, Chris. Well, thank you for being here, man.

[02:03:38]>> Thank you.

[02:03:38]>> Thank you for your time and and and thank you. Thank you for sharing uh those stories.

[02:03:44]>> Yeah. [music] >> And those uh uh experiences from your career. It >> was It was good. It was fun.

[02:03:50]>> All right, man. We'll do it again. All right. All right, man. Thank you.

[02:03:58]>> [music]