How Misinformation Led To The Murder Of A Teacher | Peter Conradi

[00:00:00]This this, you know, this kind of mounting campaign against him went on for 11 days in in total.

[00:00:06]Um authorities kind of said, "Oh, it'll probably kind of calm down." They downplayed it. He had no police escort.

[00:00:13]Um you know, he was he was himself, as the film shows biographically, he was very worried about his own security. At one point he packed a hammer in his rucksack for sort of for self-defense and took it with him to school. And he was, you know, he didn't have a car. He used to walk home normally, but he you know, asked fellow teachers to drive him home.

[00:00:31]This fateful Friday afternoon, which was the last day before half term, no one was able to drive him. He walked and that walked home and that just happened to be the day that Amzara, the killer, turned up.

[00:00:43]>> Now, on the 16th of October 2020, French secondary school teacher Samuel Paty was murdered by an 18-year-old Russian Muslim refugee after he was reported to have shown a caricatured image of the Prophet Muhammad as part of a lesson he was giving on freedom of expression.

[00:00:59]Now, the story of Paty has been made into a feature film telling the story of the days leading up to his death. Well, joining me to discuss this and more of the week's biggest headlines from Europe is a Sunday Times Europe editor Peter Conradi. Good afternoon, Peter.

[00:01:12]>> Afternoon.

[00:01:13]>> So, Peter, this is a pretty grim story.

[00:01:15]Um remind us what the full story is behind this really horrible murder.

[00:01:20]>> Yeah, uh I mean it is it is actually a it is a bizarre story. Essentially, what happened was that a girl at the school in a place called Conflans-Sainte-Honorine, which is a little town west of west of Paris, had been expelled from school. She went home. Um the parents wanted to know what was going on. She said, "Ah, there was this terrible teacher. He was going to show us uh cartoons showing the Prophet Muhammad and he first ordered all the Muslim children in the class to leave."

[00:01:55]Now, the father was absolutely outraged by this as as as one would be. He then teamed up with a an Islamist preacher.

[00:02:04]They sort of started this hate campaign against the teacher, which led which was sort of picked up on by this this Chechen guy who had nothing to do with the school. He lived about 50 miles away, but he was kind of looking for a target. He seized on it, came to the school, and brutally killed and beheaded the teacher. Now, that was what appeared to be going on. The reality was in fact that the girl hadn't been in the class at all. She'd made it all up.

[00:02:36]She'd been excluded from school for something else completely.

[00:02:41]Yes, the teacher had shown these cartoons to his pupils, but he hadn't He just said, you know, out of consideration of everyone anyone if anyone finds this offensive, they can look away, they can close their eyes, or they can leave the class. So, horrible horrible misunderstanding which led to the death of the teacher, the jailing both of the father and the preacher, jail suspended sentences for the girl who was only 13 at the time and five of her schoolmates who actually took money from this Chechen when he turned up outside the school for leading them to him, pointing out the teacher to him. Awful awful story.

[00:03:21]>> Yeah.

[00:03:22]Peter, it's been made into a film now and I gather you went to screening of the film in the town where the murder actually took place. I mean, that sounds like it has the potential to be very tense and incredibly emotional. How was it?

[00:03:34]>> Yeah, it was I must say it was it was in a rather one of these kind of rather anonymous multiplex cinemas.

[00:03:41]Not as emotional as one would think, I think. There was a lot of you know, afterwards the director was there, the guy that the actor that played Samuel Paty, the the teacher were there, various other people. A lot of kind of calm questions from the from the audience. I was particularly struck by one of the guys in the audience who I spoke to afterwards who turned out himself to be a teacher of history and geography, the same as Samuel Paty, and they're the they're the teachers that have to do these civic lessons. And he was talking about the impact that it had on his life as a teacher, and also his own daughter had been at the school at the time, and his second daughter is now at the school. So, it was all very very very very close to him.

[00:04:23]>> You've been speaking to Paty's sister as well. How does the family feel about the film, Peter?

[00:04:29]>> Well, I mean, the film's title translates into English as abandonment, and there is the sense by the family that you know, the true nature of the threat against Paty was not taken seriously enough by the authorities. He was this this you know, this kind of mounting campaign against him went on for 11 days in total.

[00:04:51]Authorities kind of said, "Oh, it'll probably kind of calm down." They downplayed it. He had no police escort.

[00:04:58]You know, he was he was himself as the film shows very graphically, he was very worried about his own security. At one point, he packed a hammer in his rucksack for sort of for self-defense and took it with him to school. And he was you know, he didn't have a car. He used to walk home normally, but he you know, asked fellow teachers to drive him home. On this fateful Friday afternoon, which was the last day before half term, no one was able to drive him. He walked and that walked home, and that just happened to be the day that Abdoullakh Anzorov, the killer, turned up.

[00:05:28]>> Yeah. I know it shocked a lot of people when it happened in France, Peter. Do you think many people will want to go and see the film?

[00:05:34]>> It's been Yes, I mean, it's it's one of these kind of defining moments, I think, in recent French history. I'm trying to think of the equivalent in Britain. It was the the Was it Rigby, the soldier who was attacked by the Islamists in in Woolwich, I think if I can remember.

[00:05:52]You know, it's that kind of incident that is is sort of seared in the national consciousness, particularly as it has a particular significance in France because teachers have this role as being the kind of the embodiment of secular Republican French values.

[00:06:09]And so an attack on Patty was seen, you know, portrayed by many or Macron, the president at the time and still is president, as being kind of an attack on France and on French values. So, yes, it's a lot of people are going to it, but it's also provoking debate because there are some people that saying it's stereotyping Muslims, it's not making a distinction, sufficient distinction between ordinary people and Islamists, which of course the director himself denies and I'm I'm I'm inclined to agree with the director, I must say having seen it.

[00:06:37]>> Mhm. Now, Peter, we don't mind a left turn on this show. I'm about to make an enormous left It probably a handbrake turn, actually.

[00:06:45]Because another French value we're going to talk about is that of nudity and toplessness.

[00:06:50]So, French men are apparently now at risk of being fined 150 euros this summer for something they probably have been doing for years. Explain.

[00:06:58]>> Yes. Now, this is we we owe this this revolution to one of the So, Carol obviously one of the Times as columnist who has picked up on this. I'm not sure she's got it exactly right, actually. I mean, I dare say so.

[00:07:10]What No, what has happened basically is over the past few months, years, a number of French towns have got increasingly upset about men wandering off the beach in their trunks or their budgie smugglers or whatever and walking through town. And one by one they've started imposing fines on them. I think it's more than a dozen or so towns have done it now. The latest join them is a place called Narbonne, which is if you kind of imagine on the map you go from Marseille around the corner down towards Barcelona. You you Narbonne, Narbonne.

[00:07:43]Um, and they've introduced a fine of 150 euros for topless men. Uh, not quite sure whether it what whether it applies to topless women or not, but um, certainly men.

[00:07:53]>> Well, these are questions that that have been running through my mind as well, Peter. Um, so presumably beaches are exempt. This is about you once you come off the beach, you're wandering to a cafe or to a bar without your shirt, right?

[00:08:07]>> Yeah, it it it it is that. I mean, no, beach uh, the beach behavior and what and what you can or cannot wear on the beach uh, has itself been a matter of contention for some time. Um, and this in fact there is bizarre there is a link actually with our first item which meant that maybe such a high break tone tone wasn't necessary. In so far as in the past it's a sort of almost ritual in France, the the French get very upset by people uh, clearly of a Muslim origin wearing burkinis on the beach or in public swimming pools which are kind of periodically banned because that's seen as being um, a a sign of kind of public religious affiliation which is frowned on here.

[00:08:49]And but by the same token there was an extraordinary incident uh, a few years ago which I was obliged to go down to investigate which was a topless beach.

[00:08:58]Uh, not actually that far from Narbonne where there were complaints um, lodged by someone who some people suspected may herself have been of Muslim origin. It was never really clear. About a woman who was uh, sunbathing topless and the woman claimed the complainant claimed that this was upsetting her children. Um, so I was sent by the newspaper down to investigate and to um, get to the bottom of it which I think I wrote at the time.

[00:09:23]>> I mean, Peter, it does seem very like there's just I mean, people are just losing their minds at both extremes. You wearing too many clothes is is, you know, is frowned upon. Wearing not enough clothes is frowned upon. I mean, I I the French were most to be, you know, kind of live and let live or laissez-faire about these things. It's like the Goldilocks of clothes at the moment.

[00:09:42]>> Yeah, [clears throat] but I should also I should point out that it's even hotter here in Paris than it is than it is in London at the moment. So, I mean, the sort of one's default mode would be something skimpy, I think.

[00:09:53]Um no, I mean, the French the French are relaxed about about certain things, but they're very very not relaxed about anything that smacks of of a religion.

[00:10:01]And I think but on on the sort of purely on the clothing front, I was I was interested to see that this this sort of topless, the idea of of French women uh sunbathing topless, you know, from an idea that dates from the sort of the '60s and Marilyn Monroe and all that sorry, not Marilyn Brigitte Bardot, I should say, not Marilyn Monroe um is sort of gone out of fashion. Um that I I was quite surprised that when I when I was sort of hung around on the topless beach down um as part of my work a few years ago, almost all the women that were were bathing topless were were over 50. The younger women, not at all.

[00:10:36]They were all quite covered up.

[00:10:37]>> Well, this is we've been talking about earlier on about Gen Z being scared of ringing doorbells cuz they find it too awkward, Peter. So, I mean, they're definitely not taking their bikini tops off if they can't ring a doorbell, are they? Um Peter, before I let you go, um Venice's mayor wants to raise the city's entrance fee, which is you know, around about €10 at the moment to something as high as €50, which seems extraordinary.

[00:10:58]I know you were in Venice quite recently. I mean, did it feel overrun?

[00:11:01]Can he justify charging €50 a day to let tourists in?

[00:11:06]>> Yeah, and no, I mean, Venice let's say parts of Venice are always overrun. I mean, if you go to St. Mark's Square, you go to the areas immediately around it, you know, that the the narrow calle calle, rather, these sort of little little alleyways, um you know, you're kind of pushing your you're pushing your way through. Um the point is that if you if you, you know, if you do know Venice, you you know that you only need to step away from these obvious points, and it can be surprisingly surprisingly empty.

[00:11:35]You know, that being said, this is a town of 49,000 people only.

[00:11:40]Somedays they get as many as 80,000 visitors, which is great if you sell sort of little plastic souvenirs.

[00:11:48]Not so great if you if you live there.

[00:11:50]They have in place at the moment, or have done since 2024, a kind of a sort of an entry fee of up to 10 euros a day on certain particularly busy days, but it you know, it doesn't seem to have made that much difference. And the new mayor who's just who's just got in thinks that it should really be hiked up A to reduce numbers, but B as ever with these things to raise some more revenue.

[00:12:12]>> Yeah, absolutely. Peter is always wonderful to speak to you. Thank you so much for your time this afternoon. That is Peter Conradi, Sunday Times Europe editor. And you can of course read all of Peter's reports, including about the new film, and his historical reports on toplessness online with a digital subscription to The Times.