Fungal overgrowth in the gut, caused by environmental mold exposure where inhaled fungal toxins enter the bloodstream and bypass the gut's immune barriers, can trigger chronic inflammation, disrupt the microbiome, increase intestinal permeability (leaky gut), and lead to persistent symptoms including bloating, food reactions, fatigue, brain fog, and anxiety; this mechanism explains why some patients with recurring gut symptoms don't respond to conventional SIBO treatments and requires addressing both environmental exposure and gut health through anti-inflammatory support, mitochondrial function, and targeted antifungal therapy.
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How Fungal Overgrowth Can Trigger Gut Symptoms (And What to Do)
Added:Let's discuss fungus. As you may know, fungus can be a significant overlooked cause of chronic symptoms. In fact, one study found that 37% of patients with unexplained gastrointestinal symptoms had fungus, fungal overgrowth in the intestinal tract, making it nearly as common as SIBO in this group examined.
And we see this in the clinic. People who repeatedly test for and treat SIBO either with herbals or with antibiotics maybe see some improvement and or regress. So this non-complete response is or can be an indication that you're missing a fungal overgrowth. With all this in mind, I'm excited to share a conversation today between Dr. Scott Spitigo, he's our clinical director, and Dr. Dr. Pesman Katarai who is a pediatrician with a lot of expertise in treatment of fungus and even though he's a pediatrician these concepts fully apply to adults. Now Dr. Peson discusses some novel mechanisms through which environmental exposure to fungus can exploit this backdoor through inhalation traversing through the bloodstream and taking this backdoor approach to inhabit your gut but bypassing the normal gut immune barrier. And when this happens, it can contribute to chronic inflammation, leaky gut, disruption of the microbiota, potentially leading to recurrent SIBO, and the transformation of normal harmless candida into a more damaging form. This may help explain why some people continue to struggle with recurrent bloating, food reactivity, fatigue, brain fog, anxiety, or other explained inflammatory, digestive, and systemic symptoms even though they've been repeatedly treating their gut. And perhaps most importantly, they discuss how to determine whether this fungus is contributing to a negative impact on your health and practical steps you can take to resolve this fungus. Again, whether you're treating your child or if you're an adult. A little bit about Dr. Peshman. He is a boardcertified pediatrician and integrative medicine clinician with training from UCLA, Western University and Lomal Linda University. He specializes in treating children, many of whom have fungal issues, but again the same problem does occur in adults. So Dr. Pesmont offers his perspective of how he is addressing this in children while Dr. Spirit Leozi from our clinic offers his and our insights for how this applies to adults.
Hope you enjoy it.
>> Pedin, welcome to the show. I'm I'm so excited to to be talking to you. It's uh you and I have had, you know, email thread back and forth for the last almost I guess almost uh year and a half at this point, me picking your brain and yes, having some back and forth. So, it's really good to be able to have a full conversation with you here. So, uh welcome to the show. Thank you for having me. It's really a pleasure to be here and uh you know through our conversations you've actually opened up uh quite a few doors and I'm like oh that's a really good question. Yeah, I didn't think about that. So yeah, pleasure to be here. Happy to be joining you. This is such an important topic that people uh is so underappreciated in the field I think or you know in in functional medicine space and and certainly in conventional uh medicine and it's like this is just you know we're just going to have a really important conversation share what we know because of the implications that you know fungus and in particular you know mold exposure from water damaged buildings and just the impact that has on on kids which is your specialty and just the families in general the parents and so yeah just you know I think it's such an important topic and um you know before we we dive into our conversation yeah I mean anything um you know I just want to hear I guess from your perspective you know what about this topic is so important uh to you >> when I first started off in in this field so this is now probably 12 years ago maybe a little bit more I I thought I understood what the heck this exposure was right. And it's like, yeah, I get what mold is. I get what these toxins are. What's the big deal? And it was actually through one of my patients that my eyes got opened up. You know, this family found, you know, Neil Nathan and, you know, I became friends with him and and learned from him and then started running down the rabbit hole myself because I looked around. It's like, God, there aren't too many pediatricians actually in this area who actually understand what the heck this is. So grudgingly, you know, I started digging and fast forward 12 years to this day what I learn about what these toxins and underline bold toxins with an s plural due to the human physiology especially of the children. I would argue I have yet to encounter any other environmental exposure that even comes close to what it can do in terms of how it harms the human physiology across the board. And you know, [clears throat] it wasn't an area that I I wanted to get into. It's not like one day I woke up and I'm like, I'm going to start learning about this, right? It was one of those things where I I I started looking at it just because I wanted to understand what was happening to this one patient and then as I started looking it's like holy Jesus it's it's everywhere and I mean just to give you context 30% on the low side upwards of 50% of our population in the US and you know sadly around the world in Europe and other countries it's not much better are exposed. So this exposure isn't a tiny little thing that happens here and there in you know rare circumstances and when it occurs it disrupts multiple human systems at the same time. It disrupts the microbiome. It disrupts the gastrointestinal tract. It triggers systemic inflammation. It completely derails the mitochondria in some cases in terms of how the electron transport chain can function. It triggers neuronal inflammation. It triggers neuronal apoptosis. So the brain cells start dysfunctioning and like the the list of laundry list of what can happen goes on and on. And when all of this collective pathophysiology, all of this collective damage hits at once, which it does, the the implications in terms of the disease outcomes are, you know, sometimes uh staggering to to consider, >> right? And and when we say mold exposure, let's let's help people understand what we mean by that.
um you know so from yeah I guess so what when we say mold exposure there's other things involved aside from just fungus or mold and and again just to clarify this point so when we say so fungus is this overarching category which includes um molds which are more um the you more like complex uh multisellular organisms whereas you know candid are a little more simple and and but also can be just as harmful ful. So when we say fungus is kind of the overarching category and then within that there's a mold, there's molds and then there's uh candida. So when we say mold exposure, what are we talking about? So I love what you're bringing up because I think we have done a huge disservice to to our community and and frankly our population with how we're communicating what this exposure means. You know, when when conventional physicians say mold cannot cause disease, they're actually quite correct.
The mold spores, right, the mold spores can rarely cause disease. They cause some allergies, they cause some congestion. That's kind of the extent of what they do when there is contamination, right? So when there's excess moisture where high humidity areas are sitting at 90% humidity and the person doesn't have air conditioning or their air conditioning unit becomes contaminated, there's a leak, there's a flood, you know, something happens that excess moisture causes a a complex microbial growth which includes a whole bunch of molds, but then also gram positive bacteria, gram negative bacteria. So there's there's like this block party, if you can imagine. There's like a block party where like literally thousands of microbes have shown up and they're all just partying together. And with that, what these block party microbes start releasing into the environment is the part that's actually concerning. The molds release a whole bunch of toxins called micotoxins, which are disruptive to the mitochondria. They disrupt the bloodb brain barrier. They trigger inflammation. They do all kinds of weird things. They disrupt the gut. The bacteria also release their own toxins.
So the gram negative bacteria which grow in these environments release bacterial endotoxins, lipopolysaccharides being one of them. The gram positive toxins release weird compounds like vinomy which you know when I started when I found it, I'm like what the heck does venomy do? So I I did a search and holy cow, valiny is actually a toxin used in research laboratories around the world to actually induce mitochondrial disease. So what and then when you look at that you're like oh my god. And then there are the volatile gases that the microbes release. There are the particullet that they release which can trigger inflammation. There are fungal uh compounds like uh betaglucans that are released. So there's like this weird soup of toxins that ultimately total over a thousand things once you add it all up that are literally being released into the environment which with that we inhale and then each of them is doing one thing or multiple things. And when you put that all together, and this is the error that people make, you know, in in the kind of conventional sciences, they're like, well, this mold by itself cannot cause harm. And it's true. A single mold or even a single microtoxin by itself cannot cause harm. When you ask what happens when a thousand plus particullet, gases, toxins, compounds are all inhaled at the same time. What do all of these do? the the the true answer is we don't know. But what I can tell you clinically is that the amount of harm that results from that is is really concerning.
>> I'm sure you've had this many times.
I've had this where, you know, an initial consult with a with a patient, ask about mold exposure, and they'll say either, "I don't have any mold in my home. It's either a brand new home. Uh I had it tested by an inspector. there's no it was clean or there's you know there's no obvious signs of of of mold growing on the on the walls which and then you know maybe subsequent visits later we realize like oh actually there's you know this problem and we realize that there is mold in the home.
So, um, yeah, I'm just curious, have you come across any any clues in somebody's, you know, aside from symptoms, which we're going to get to also, any like clues of in a patient's story that points to uh there might be some mold in this person's uh, you know, current uh, either home, I guess, we'll call it their, you know, their home. any any clues that you've come across that that make you suspect mold and then later on and end up sort of confirming that mold was actually a major uh component or you know mold and all and and company we'll say.
>> Yeah. So I mean the I I want to preface it by saying that it's one of those things that's hard to see until you know how to see it. So it it can look in all kinds of different strange ways. One of the most common tailtale signs that I have seen in the adults is they're usually fatigued for usually no reason or they have some kind of brain fog.
They have, you know, allergies. They're coughing a bunch. They wake up congested. You know, the adult is getting sinus infections which is highly weird, you know. So, some kind of respiratory inflammatory response or just this fatigue. And a lot of times the adults are like, "Well, you know, I just thought just because I'm a busy parent and I'm working and I've got kids that that's just the reason why I'm tired or, you know, I just thought, you know, I'm I' I've got some brain fog and my memory is just getting bad because I was getting old except they're like in their early 40s, late 30s, right?" So, it's a lot of these kinds of things that we just normalize and half the time the adults aren't even realizing that they're so tired, right? They they just say, "Well, you know, that's just kind of life, right? I need f five cups of coffee to get going. And that that's just part of life. In the kids, it shows up first as a weird level of irritability, right? So these toxins trigger inflammation in the nervous system. Inflammation is like pouring like 15 cups of caffeine in the nervous system. So those kids, they just can't settle, which shows up as collic early in life. So that that's actually a hyperaras hyperympathetic response early on. It can show up as the kids who have disrupted sleep. So, it takes them half an hour, an hour to fall asleep. They wake up in the middle of the night. They wake up at the crack of dawn. They're just irritable. They're they're moody.
They're they're reactive.
And you know, a lot of times we we also normalize these things. Oh, some kids just have sleep issues. Some kids just are kind of moody. Some kids are just kind of reactive. Some kids are sensitive. So, the sensory distortions that some of these kids have where they get overwhelmed if the environment is too loud, they're they're having clothing issues, they've become restrictive or picky with their eating.
These are all the downstream effects that can come from this exposure. And this this biotoxin mold exposure is one of the things that can really cause this presentation along again with the allergies, recurrent ear infections, the kid is getting sick backto back to back to backtoback illnesses. Th those are some of the things that should raise a flag of like gosh this is a normal there's something going on. What have you observed with timelinewise when somebody or when a family moves in either they move into a new home uh and it could be like a brand new home or it could be you know an older home but they move into a new home for them and is there any time frame that you've observed symptoms begin from initial exposure? Can it is it usually right away? Is it is there can it lag a couple of months? You know is there a you know up to a year? I mean what have you observed in in that uh with that time frame >> in in the kids? Really good question. Uh in the kids usually within the first one to three let's say four months max something starts changing. So the the kid starts becoming more irritable.
Their sleep is getting weird. They're now having an ear infection. You know the kid that wasn't having any illnesses is now getting antibiotics. So usually it's it's somewhere around one to four months depending on the child and their physiology and also how much toxicity is in the environment >> when some when a you know child or even you know the parents if they if there is an ongoing exposure how often do do you more often than not see some sort of allergic type symptoms or respiratory type symptoms? I know you mentioned that they that is present. Um I'm curious is it is that a majority of the time there is some sort of either asthma or uh sinus infections in kids or adults? I mean is there usually some breathing respiratory allergic type presentation in a current mold exposure or are there cases where that is not part of the presentation? It >> it it it's a tricky question that you're asking because can these exposures and toxins trigger an allergy response? The answer is for sure yes. Now where that allergy response shows up is is actually the variable. So in some kids it shows up as chronic runny nose, sinus infection, respiratory issues, backtoback croo backtoback bronchitis.
Now they have asthma, they've got all of these respiratory kind of ENT allergic states. In other kids, it actually shows up in their nervous system. Uh I don't know if you've ever seen the the work of Dr. Theo Theoro Heredes. Uh he he's one of my heroes. He's published I don't know Jesus three 400 papers. So he's the mass cell guy. And one of the areas of focus for Dr. Theo and I've learned a ton from him is actually how this mass cell allergy activation shows up in the nervous system. And Dr. Theo was one of the first people to actually call autism a brain allergy response because and we published a paper together on this on how this allergy reaction can actually show up only in the nervous system. So the kid doesn't have any real respiratory issues. One of their siblings may right there. There's a kid that's now that was fine a year or two ago. They were developing fine, talking fine, looking fine, and now all of a sudden they're looking autistic. and then one of their siblings or parents may be having the actual ENT allergy, but that allergy response in the nervous system can show up in a completely different way.
>> Yeah, it's a great reframe. So, it's essentially when we say allergic response, we could also substitute that with an inflammatory uh type response which that can show up as allergies in the you know runny nose, asthma or in the brain. And then also I am curious about you know digestive symptoms you what you know of course we can get inflammation in the in the in the digestive tract and what in kids what are and adults I would say if you have if you have any observations from the parents perhaps what what are some of the more common gastrointestinal symptoms that you you see in those that have uh you know mold exposure in the home. So not not all kids who are exposed have gastrointestinal issues. I think that that's the first thing to highlight. The the other side of this is some kids start developing you know weird gut issues they're so in little little babies like severe reflux is actually one of the presentations and then in those little babies because their gut is now starting to become disrupted the gut barrier they start having food sensitivities food allergies. So these are the babies that start having reflux. Mom if they're b breastfeeding, have to eliminate gluten, dairy, corn, you know, all kinds of other things. Some of these babies end up on hypoallergenic or even elemental formula. And if you ask, well, why in God's good earth does a baby need elemental formula? It's because their gut barrier has been so badly disrupted, right? Then now you've got this gut immune response to all of these food proteins. So you're you're constantly having to decrease that antigen load, that protein load in what they're drinking because of that response. In older kids, a similar presentation can show up where the kid was doing pretty good, right? No big issues. And then all of a sudden, 6 months, a year later, they've got this food allergy, they've got that food sensitivity, you know, they've got constipation, diarrhea.
It also then can translate into the skin, right? When you've got gut immune mass cell activation, what does that do to the skin? It starts showing up as weird rashes. It starts showing up as eczema. The kid didn't have eczema, now they've got eczema, right? So, all of these things can show up along with abdominal pain and and weird uh things like that. One pattern I've observed, at least in adults, is that one one clue for fungus being a [clears throat] root cause to somebody's GI symptoms, whether it's, you know, gas, bloating, constipation, loose stool, reflux, is uh they they've been diagnosed with SIBO or small intestine, bacterial overgrowth, which is uh basically an overgrowth of bacteria in the small intestine as the the name suggests. And uh you know there's a lot of exc bacteria fermenting and they're eating the the the carbohydrates that we're consuming and then they're putting out a lot of gas which causes a lot of symptoms. And I I've I've had a a number of patients that they were treated for the SIBO multiple different times with antibiotics herbals and they do well but then they regress and then kind of that pattern repeats over and over again. And um and then when we in some of those patients, we realize, oh, there's there's a this individual has a fungal issue and they also have mold exposure.
And then when that's addressed and then you treat the fungus, their chronic SIBO goes away. Um so it's just one interesting clinical clue I or you know, yeah, I guess a clue that I that that um I've observed is recurring gastrointestinal symptoms that are not fully responsive. I think of fungus and within [snorts] that fungus category, we can think about candida growing in the gut or perhaps a mold exposure. Um, yeah. Any any uh I saw you're smiling there. I'm curious any any similar observations or or comments that you have?
>> I mean, I will say that the vast majority of kids that I take care of have fungal dispiosis as as one of the perpetuating factors uh for their gastrointestinal issues.
And and one of the things, you know, we discussed in that paper that we co-published is, you know, when you stand back and, you know, a lot of people think candida is something that we uh are infected by, right? It's it's something you ate and then somehow it landed in your gut and then it somehow took over, right? Where that's actually not the case at all, right? Every single human being is is is has candida in their gut. Candida is a commensal, which means it's just part of our normal gut microbiota.
And most people don't realize that. And you know, one of the things a while ago that I I kept staring at and asking myself is, well, if that's the case, then what the hell happens that causes candida to start getting out of control?
Because people presume that it's well, they got too many antibiotics. And then when you look at the history of a whole bunch of these people, they they didn't really get antibiotics. And then we start making excuses. Well, it's the antibiotics in the food. And then it's like, well, if that's the case, then why don't why doesn't everyone get candida overgrowth? Right? So, you get to this weird place of saying, well, God, what is it? If if it's not the antibiotics and it it can't it's not really the diet, how the heck does this happen? And this is what makes this, you know, conversation so interesting because it turns out that first of all, these micotoxins and biotoxins and so forth trigger a lot of inflammation in the gut like a lot. They trigger mass cell activation in the gut and this inflammation starts distorting the entire environment of the gut. And the analogy I've created uh for some of my patients is, you know, it's like you have a healthy, beautiful lawn, right?
Lawn is beautiful, the grass is growing, the weeds have no chance of taking over.
There are some weeds in there, right?
All lawns have weeds, but when you've got a really healthy lawn, the the crab grass and all the weeds just don't have any chance to take over. Now, what happens when the lawn no longer gets watered as much and the sun is beating down on it and someone comes along and starts spraying some acid which just kills off all the beneficial grass and then all of a sudden the crab grass, the weeds, dandelions, whatever just start taking over. It turns out I believe and so far you know this is what I've seen in you know my clinical practice of seeing these patients and you know these patients are pretty much the bulk of my practice is consistently in those kids especially who become really sick their entire microbiome becomes distorted and in all likelihood it is not just the direct effect of these toxins and you you think about where do most antibiotics come from right they come from mult toxins, right? They're derivatives of mold toxins, hence penicellin being named after the mold penicylium. But the indirect effect of these toxins is what makes it, if you want to say, interesting or terrifying, right? Uh it actually changes the entire environment of the gut and through that starts changing the microbiome and then through that actually causes this morphological change. And there there's one or two studies that we cite in that paper that explore what happens when you've when you have mass cell activation as just one factor. It turns out all of these microbes like candida are constantly sensing their environment. It's it's amazing how intelligent they are, right? They're constantly checking out their environment. They're constantly checking out what's going on. And when they get these signals, they actually starts start undergoing this morphological change. And candida goes from this benign commensal to this aggressive hyphing self which actually starts releasing all of these compounds like candida, lysin, alphaase that actually starts penetrating the tissue to start kind of taking over. So, you know, when when we talk about the these candida overloads or candida overgrowth or, you know, small intestinal fungal overgrowth, when I hear and see these things, what goes through the back of my mind is how disrupted did the gut have to become to allow these fungus and microbes to take over? Does that make sense?
>> No, it does. And so just to I guess summarize uh or paraphrase the the the very in water damaged building where there's there's you know mold and there's the toxins and then there's bacteria and bacterial toxins those are I don't know we I don't we covered this part. So they're basically those are inhaled and so they get into the bloodstream and is is that how they're getting to the GI tract and causing that disruption uh or what is like I guess that that connection there where from a you know mold and you know water damage building to how is it actually getting and affecting the GI tract in particular?
>> Brilliant question. Uh I I really valuable thing to ask. So the gut has multiple barriers to protect itself against the toxins and everything else, right? There's the mucous layer, there are imunoglobulins, there's the microbiota. So it actually has a lot of protection against these toxins, which is why you can eat for instance food, moldy food, and generally speaking, it doesn't do a whole lot for you. It turns out the gut has zero protection from protect keeping the toxins out if they're in the bloodstream, right? So, it's like it's almost like there's a back door. I mean, literally, there's a back door, right? If the toxins get inhaled, they go through the bloodstream. They go through the back door. And there there's one study that I found that talked about how when toxins go from the quote unquote basilateral side, which is the back side. Tiny amounts of these toxins are capable of causing really profound damage to the gut, causing intestinal permeability, leaky gut, gut inflammation, because essentially they're bypassing all of the protective layers that the gut normally has to keep these toxins out and just go right into the, you know, epithelium and, you know, uh, trigger inflammation.
And those micotoxins they are they act like antibiotics they so then from there they can cause disruptions in the microbiome. So leading to more you know dispiosis or more like harmful ar you know more harmful bacteria which then signal to candida that oh we can you know shifts into its more uh pathogenic form or harmful form. And I heard an analogy you gave on a a video I was watching of yours. It's like a a you know really pristine neighborhood if you want to give that analogy but it sort of like shifts into a kind of a ghetto ghetto neighborhood once once the you know water damaged building comes into the picture. I did like that analogy.
>> Yeah. Uh you know it's it's like having a beautiful community right lots of just wonderful people living there who are you know good people. They they take care of each other. They take care of the community. They maintain the community and everything is fine until something happens where these good people just start dying off, right?
Excess heat, they're starving, whatever, right? All of a sudden, the population starts dropping off. And in this community there, there are some thugs, right? There are some bad actors. It's just that total community was able to keep these bad actors in check. But as the loving, kind people start dropping off, these thugs and bad actors now start taking over and next thing you know, they're looting and they're they're damaging and they're robbing.
They're setting this building on fire.
They're attacking, you know, the town next door. And and it's a similar analogy. And when you look at, you know, what happens when the microbiome is disrupted, it's literally exactly the the same scenario unfolding just within our gut.
>> Yeah, I love that analogy. Uh okay. So the micotoxins and other other bacterial toxins they cause this dispiosis. Then that leads to more of a uh pathogenic or harmful form of candida. The candida they dig their their hyphents deep into the the gut lining which then causes leaky gut. And then from there now that's we have this open gateway that is in the GI tract. you have this um you know uh more disbiotic or harmful microbiome that are producing more uh what are called endotoxins right they they're producing more uh you know harmful compounds and then you have the candida also producing harmful compounds and now you have a gut that's leaky where the the this like thin little gut lining this single cell lining is now kind of broken and and and disrupted. It's now contents from the gut now get into the bloodstream. And that's where uh this is where things really sort of take off in a not so great way. And so I guess from there, how are how is that affecting the brain and and in in kids and adults? And I I know you see mainly kids. And I I I would venture to you this is more my my theory just given that you know we see I think with kids and adults I think symptoms are going to look somewhat different but I think the underlying you know pathophysiology is probably probably quite similar. Um but nonetheless I think we can kind of extrapolate from your your uh your patient population I think. Um but I want to yeah so from there so once you have this leaky gut how are things then affecting other parts of the body especially the brain? Well, I I I want to actually, if you're okay with it, kind of uh touch on what you brought up because I I think there's a lot to unpack over here. So, what you described perfectly is what I think mold toxicity actually is. So, biotoxin illness, mold toxicity, which we described, is not ultimately the effect of the toxins directly. It's what these toxins do when they erode the integrity of our gut, integrity of our micro mitochondria, you know, they they erode the integrity of our immune system and that causes a secondary wave of toxicity. And I believe that secondary wave of toxicity from inside of us is actually what we call mold toxicity. And when you look at certain facts, so for instance, mold toxins, mo most micotoxins, we think, well, this exposure causes toxicity because these toxins just linger in the body for years and years and years and you just need to mop them up and pull them out and, you know, bind them and that's how you fix it. And I can't speak for adults, so I will not even say a word around that. But in kids, if you actually look at how long do these micotoxins last in the body. So I I went and geeked out and you know tried to find answers. It turns out micotoxins some of them have a halflife which means 50% of them are gone within a few hours.
Others last maybe days to weeks maximum a month. So that means like if someone left a moldy home maximum 2 or 3 months later these toxins should be gone.
Except what we find is most people stay sick for years out. Bacterial endotoxins which can also make you sick from these environments last 3 to five minutes. And then when you add to this like what is the body's primary mechanism for detoxing these toxins? It's the gut. The microbiome. There is a bunch of good studies done that have shown that the healthy microbiome and gut are critical for our ability to clear these toxins out because the bacteria literally break down these toxins and prevent them from absorbing into the body along with a healthy gut barrier and then we just poop them out and clear them out and that's all there is. Now, when that changes, right, the gut barriers are all gone. the gut is leaking stuff out that then essentially causes this tidal wave.
And then if if you just kind of stand back and think about this for a second, we have a trillion plus bacteria in our gut, right? And as you said, when the gut microbiome becomes unhealthy, their propensity to produce more toxins increases significantly.
So what is ultimately a greater source of toxins? the environment with what we inhale or these trillions of bacteria that are sitting next door to every organ with a blood supply that's bigger than you know anything in the body absorbing all of these toxins from the gut leaking through. So what what you said I think was so important because I believe this entire mechanism is ultimately what we cause what we call mold toxicity and it's how the mold toxins degrade our our systems that then allows this to happen and when this happens we get really sick and then stay sick for you know forever unless someone intervenes in some cases.
>> Thank you for for uh yeah lingering on that point because that's incredibly important. And I I know that uh you know when I heard one of your your uh lectures a while I think a year ago and I think it's the first one I listened to of you and I love that you you brought up some of the the sort the the thought leaders if you will in this space and you you were trying to figure out like how can they all be right? So there's you know the three different camps if you will. Um, there's the Richie Shoemaker camp, there's the Andrew Campbell camp, and then the Neil Nathan camp. And, you know, they all seem to to help people. And I remember you were in this presentation, you're trying to put together why that is. And and it sounds like um you're just kind of briefly touching on. So, they each have their own what they think is the root cause.
And it sounds like they like the toxin aspect from the water damage building is the primary issue of just you know it's lingering inside and therefore that is what is causing the symptoms. It's kind of like circulating around but then when you look up the halflife of these micotoxins it's like oh wow they're most of them are are they they go away on their own or they degrade pretty quickly. Um, so yeah, I love that your theory encompasses the and when we get to treatment, we can perhaps touch back on this, but your your proposed uh I guess underlying mechanism as to why mold exposure, water damage, building exposure leads to these chronic symptoms is not necessarily the the micotoxins that are just circulating indefinitely until you pull them out, but it's more the secondary effect that those toxins then have on the GI tract. uh and we have like these trillions of bacteria.
They're producing these uh endotoxins and that next to our you know rich blood supply direct access to our brain and and and other parts of our body and that's what causes the symptoms. So yeah, I think it's just a really brilliant uh and it makes it makes sense. It makes a lot of logical sense >> and uh you know one one thing to add here if you ask like why do these binders help right? Because a lot of people find that when you use charcoal or clay or you know whatever thing why do these tox binders help? It turns out that all of these binders chlorella you know humic acid whatever all of these binders bind the bacterial toxins from our gut. So if you look at it also you fit that into the picture it's like what are these toxin these binders binding?
Yes, they can bind the toxins from our environment, but they're also really good at keeping the toxins from the bacteria from leaking through by binding them and and helping us poop it out to prevent that absorption from taking place.
>> And we will definitely be talking about binders in a little more uh in a little more detail in just a moment here. Um I one other thing I want to touch on here before we leave the GI tract and venture into the into the brain so to speak is is how what I've observed in those that have a like their prime their symptoms seem to be from a mold water damage uh building exposure they seem to be highly sensitive reactive and I don't mean sensitive in like the you know emotional sense more like they can't they go into you know the laundry detergent section of the grocery store and they they flare they feel worse. They get a headache or they're tired or they're reacting to food or they um just you know highly just many different triggers make them feel worse. So what's the connection here with the this dispiosis with the fungal overgrowth in the gut and this leaky gut? So how how is all that leading to this um you know hyper reactivity or maybe we even even call it you know mass cell activation syndrome.
Um so yeah what's the con are you observing that and also what do you if you are which I think you are what is that connection there >> so twofold uh in the children there are those who are immunologically so hypers sensitized where just about anything and everything will trigger them. You give them binders they'll get triggered. You give them herbals they'll get triggered.
You give them probiotics they will get triggered. like anything and everything.
It's like walking through a landmine field. And that is a clear reflection of just how overreactive their total gut immune system, which includes the mass cells, is you know this this thing we say mass cell activation is really a global immune activation because the mass cells don't just sit there by themselves. They're talking to the lymphosytes and the dendritic cells, right? they're they're essentially triggering the entire immune system to go bonkers at the same time. One of the things that's so interesting is in adolescence and adults uh and this is something you know my mentor Neil Nathan has talked about at nauseium is when these individuals are exposed through their lyic system and their nervous system there's a secondary hypersensitization that happens and it's almost like a PTSD phenomenon where now neurologically they're also reacting and responding and the chemical compounds will trigger something, but there's almost like an amplification effect because of all of their neurological hypersensitization.
And why Dr. Nathan, you know, talks so much about limbic retraining and kind of calming the nervous system and healing the nervous system is especially in the adolescence and adults, this becomes one secondary factor. Uh part of why I love working with little kids is I don't have to worry about that. Little kids are just these precious pure little human beings where it's you just see their physiology at play. But I wanted to differentiate that because there's a kind of a twofold component there to >> Yep. 100% see the you know same in adults this uh the nervous system and the immune system both getting overly uh sort of reactive if you will or this PTSD like you said uh and that seems to be quite common when there's been when there is a mold exposure or a past mold exposure that that hasn't been uh you know appropriately dealt with so yeah I guess the last part here is just before we move on to you know the next thing is how do we figure out if this is even going on for an individual how can we you know test for this. Um, anything you want to comment on with this, you know, brain, uh, you know, gut brain connection with the inflammation in the gut, how does how does it actually get to the brain and and what is it doing in the brain that's causing these, uh, neurological symptoms that you're seeing in in your patients?
>> Yeah. Yeah. So you know when we step back and we look at a lot of these children and and sadly over the last five years after COVID uh the numbers and severity of this has increased dramatically.
uh when we look at these children whether we give them a label of autism or pans or anxiety disorder whatever they all have actually a very similar common underlying pathophysiology which is just inflammation.
So you know why would these sweet little kids and we we'll just talk about the neurotypical kids the kids that can talk to you and look at you right why do they become anxious why do they become so reactive why do they become so sensitive right and all of this is inflammation so if we just take the for instance there's one component uh which Dr. Theo mapped out first which is when you have inflammation in the nervous system one of the first things that can happen is it distorts our perception of safety.
So, it changes our fear response, which completely distorts what our brain perceives as a threat, right? A tiger about to attack us and just kill us versus the bug that's walking on the wall and you're like, "Oh, that's a tiny little bug. I shouldn't worry about that." Right? When there's inflammation, our perception is completely skewed. So, the nothing bug suddenly becomes the tiger that's about to kill you. And in some kids that shows up as tremendous apprehension, you know, separation anxiety. They they they anywhere they go they're freaking out. In other kids, depending on, you know, their constitution and, you know, whatever else, fear turns into aggression. So, why are some of the kids so aggressive, right? Why do they attack? Why do they like they're ready to just pounce on something? That is actually because they're scared. So the the these presentations that we see are all a neuroinflammatory event. Then you extend that into what does that do to the part of our brain that influences how we experience and perceive the world. It turns out all of our sensory pathways through multiple different things and this could be a multi-ourlong conversation in of itself are all distorted because of inflammation. So when you have histamine, when you have elevations in glutamate, which the microg ga can cause, right? So these two primary chemicals that influence so many different brain brain pathways just go through the roof. So one, when histamine and glutamate are elevated and for for our audience, you know, just think of what happens when you take benadryil, right? Most people just knock out. Why do you knock out when you take benadryil? Because histamine levels in the brain just plummet. And when histamine levels plummet, you pass out.
What happens when you drink 15,000 cups of coffee? You're hyper, right? You're hyper hyper vigilant. You're hyper alert. What is that? That's glutamate, right? Caffeine shoots up glutamate to give you that extra boost of attention.
Now, imagine if you've got the opposite effect of benadryil, right? and you way too much histamine which can affect also attention but to an excess and glutamate coffee is also hitting at the same time.
First thing is that can me disrupt sleep it disrupts appetite. So those kids that that have very picky eating parents are you know driving themselves crazy just to get them two things to eat. That's inflammation.
This also changes how we perceive sound.
So environments become loud. Uh, in this book that I'm writing, I I have this analogy of like you're sitting at a restaurant, right? You're sitting at a restaurant. Restaurants can can get loud, right? But you and I would be fine, right? We we're chatting, we're we're fine. It's like, yeah, it's a little loud. What's the big deal? Uh, I'm sure you've seen those movies where usually it's like a spy or someone that gets captured and then they're thrown in this concrete room and then there's like just this crazy loud rock music being blasted at them, right? To the or they're being tortured but it's like light and sound just right. If there's too much histamine, if there's too much inflammation, the loud restaurant turns into the torture chamber because our sensory distortion changes how we perceive these sounds. And then when you look at some of these kids that that suddenly start freaking out when they go into loud environments, you know, the the kids with autism or even the neurotypical kids, you know, they start getting anxious. We label it a selective mutism, you know, anxiety disorder, whatever else. These are all sensory distortions that are happening because the brain is misunderstanding and perceiving what is going on in the environment. And I mean there there's a laundry list of things beyond that. But it just kind of paints a picture of what happens when there's a lot of inflammation. Now why am I going down this rabbit hole? Right?
We ask what triggers what's the most significant thing that is capable of triggering this level of inflammation.
It turns out that the toxins from the gut bacteria, lipopolysaccharides being one of many, are fantastic and they're they're known to be highly capable of triggering this level of inflammation.
And then when you add to these toxins that are now going into the brain because we've got a leaky blood brain barrier and a leaky gut, there's a secondary pathway through the vagus nerve. It turns out the vagus nerve is all in the gut, right? It's constantly sensing and checking out what's going on in the gut and sending a ton of information into the brain. So you've got essentially the bloodstream pathway and then the vagus nerve pathway both hitting the brain with all of these inflammatory signals that then causes the immune system to go completely bonkers and then that starts triggering this this weird cascade of inflammation that also shows up as learning disabilities and attention problems and processing issues, drop in IQ, etc., etc., etc. Great explanation and and just to you know related to adults also I mean the the the inflammation that stems from the uh you know you know the endotoxins the lipos lipopolyaccharide in the bloodstream getting to the brain the the vagus nerve disruption I see that present as insomnia in adults and and this anxiety that is just not for any obvious or particular reason it's just this feeling of of anxiousness uh but and I've also seen it present as depress depression uh or even anger. So there's u and then of course brain fog, fatigue, any those are some of the more common presentations I see in adults.
And again I'm I would venture to I think it'd be a very good uh you know guess that you know based on what you're describing and from what I've read that that is a similar or the same you know pathophysiology that's leading to those symptoms. Uh, and the other aspect of this I wanted to highlight before we move on to testing is the um the idea that when you're in a water damaged building, there's the mold spores in the air and we know that you know mold spores from and some kind of environment we know that we we breathe them in. So they go into this the our nasal passages into the sinuses and into the lungs and for for some individuals and I don't know if there's uh you know a number or uh you know research on the prevalence of this but clinically um me and I know other clinicians we've seen you know sinus infections from you know the mold exposure the you know the fungal spores getting into the sinuses and it's you know it's damp in there and it's it's it's dark and it's it's perfect for them to grow. Um and so you know we're we're really paying a lot more attention to sinocitis uh uh from a fungal perspective in the clinic and knowing that the sinuses are right next to the brain and if you have you know inflammation in the sinuses we we know there's data on sinocitis and uh you know a higher percentage of people with uh cognitive dysfunction not necessarily with mold but just in general if there's chronic sinocitis we know that there is a higher chance of having cognitive dysfunction. And there's another study that just came out on chronic sinocitis and having what's called uh autonomic dysfunction. So basically infections in the sinuses infecting or uh causing inflammation in the nervous system. So there's a that there's also that aspect which we're definitely going to talk about in a moment from a testing perspective and treatment perspective.
Uh but I want to add in that sinus infection uh sinus colonization of fungus to the um to the conversation because we do think that it is an important part um of the underlying pathophysiology of why water damage buildings and mold cause chronic symptoms in people. Any any uh any comments there? Any observations you on on on your end regarding that? I mean I I I think fungal colonization or even bacterial colonization like Richie Shoemaker talks about you know how certain you know gram positives can also colonize the sinuses and produce their own host of toxins which could be you know terrible for the nervous system. um in you know there's two thoughts one is in con in concurrence if you want to say to the sinus infections what is happening in the gut and how much of the toxicity that's in the nervous system is from the sinuses versus the gut we'll leave that alone but what I also wanted to share is what's really fascinating is most of the data that I have taken to understand the kids actually comes from the adult neurodeenerative world. So it turns out that the adult scientific community has been studying in in quite a significant way how bacterial endotoxins are triggering neuroinflammation and then especially that neuroinflammation piece causing neurodeeneration.
So if if any of the audience members are interested if you type in microgleal activation in neurodeenerative disease or microgleal activation in Parkinson's neuro micro microgal activation and Alzheimer's that there's such a fascinating body of information out there looking at what this immune activation in the nervous in [clears throat] the nervous system does to our brain cells and how that can lead to neurodeenerative disease And when I take that information and then start translating that into what I see in the kids, it's fascinating how much of an overlap there is.
Not just me, that there there's a lot of people out there who really question if autism is basically a neurodeenerative disease just happening in a little person, you know, early in life versus, you know, someone later in life. And I think there there's a lot of validity to that notion.
>> Yeah. No, it's fascinating. Um yeah, let's uh let's move on to some testing uh here. I I I I don't want to dive too deeply into the home testing aspect but I I do want to just touch on it briefly uh because you know obvious it is a very important step of course um given that if there's an ongoing significant exposure and it's not identified it can get it can be more challenging to fully get well I am curious so high level you know what is what is your approach you know you have a you know patient you suspect mold in the home, what do you do next?
>> Yeah, I mean, it starts with a healthy degree of suspicion, and I think your comment earlier on is is something that's really important to highlight.
People presume that just because their home is relatively new or it looks clean, it doesn't it excludes the possibility of mold. And I I'll give you uh two examples. Uh, one, uh, I had this family, you know, less than six months ago. They moved into this extremely fancy, newly built, you know, multi-million dollar home, more expensive than I can even imagine.
Uh, the home was less than a year and a half old and worth probably$10 million.
Um, and the kids started getting sick, started having allergies, started having, you know, weird things going on.
And, you know, I told the family, I'm like, "Hey, this is kind of strange."
you know, they they first just gave me a weird look and they're like, "You're you're a little out of your mind, right?
This this home can't have mold." The kid got more sick. So, finally, they they agreed to bring someone in to check the home. And it turns out that every single door and every single window was flashed improperly. So, that moisture, the water barrier that keeps water from going out of the windows was basically non-existent. So with the rains, the water was literally coming in from the stucco into the windows into the walls and literally had created mold in multiple parts of the home. And this home was a year and a half old and again more expensive than I can even imagine.
I'll give you an example of our own home. When we f first moved into our home, we remodeled the entire home with the exception of the two bedrooms that my kids were in because there was no reason to do anything with it. I brought a inspector that I thought was decent.
They checked everywhere and they're like, "You're fine."
My daughter was having weird eczema and like weird sensory things, like completely flipping out of her mind, like overwhelmed by sound. My little guy had diarrhea for the first year and a half of his life and I couldn't figure out for the life of me.
We eliminated gluten. We gave him probiotics. Nothing was helping him. It turns out, and I'm I'm supposedly the mold guy here, right? So, I'm sharing the story because it's it's ridiculous how easy it is to miss it. It turns out that underneath the insulation in the hallway between their two rooms, I kid you not, from the prior roof leak that we we had replaced the roof, but from the prior roof just in that one freaking area, there was this gigantic patch of mold that was buried underneath the insulation. And the inspector didn't lift up the insulation to look. and that patch of mold from the prior uh home that you know once we fixed it up was making my kids sick. So this is just a reflection of how easy it is to miss.
It's missed all the time by conventional inspection. So if someone hired an inspector on Yelp or whatever, right?
Regardless of their ratings and they come and take an air sample from one or two parts of your home, look around, maybe go around with a fancy gun and check for moisture issues. no moisture, air sample doesn't suggest there's a problem and they walk away and tell you you're home. That means nothing because those that kind of testing can easily miss exposure and unless there is some kind of horrific water damage where you probably wouldn't need them to tell you you've got mold, they will miss it. So I just want to say this because it's so easy to miss and one of the probably the most significant and fundamental issues that I see is I I I I get consults from other wonderful providers who thought about mold. They found it on testing.
They they said, "Hey, could you have mold?" No. We tested our home. We don't have mold. Therefore, there's not a problem. Provider goes on and now is checking for lime and checking for this.
And the reason why that child and family were continuing to get sick is because they missed it.
>> Hey everyone, just wanted to make a quick note that we do have a comprehensive guide for assessing your home for mold. It sounds intimidating and it is on the surface, but if you research and break it down as we have, we can distill it to a handful of straightforward recommendations, a couple tests to confirm what is perhaps found via visual inspection, and a couple guidelines for when to bring in a professional and who to bring in specifically. So again, even though this can sometimes feel overwhelming to determine if you have mold in your home or not, it is actually not this vague ethereal issue and it can be assessed and appraised in a fairly straightforward manner and we will include the link for this so that you can download the full set of guidelines and recommendations. If you're looking for a deeper conversation on how to know if you have mold in your home, we also broke this down in a prior video. You can check that out right here. So, so how can people I guess well how did you figure out that it was in that particular area in your home if uh I mean there's I'm sure there's no you know a moisture meter would have been there was no moisture there's no active water leak right so was from a past water leak um you know and I guess broadening out so how could somebody in that scenario what are the things they can do to get some clues that okay there may be mold in this home like you know what you the way that you were able to figure it out in your own Um, so I mean ultimately we we we brought in another inspector after the fact who is much more meticulous and careful in their inspection. But I think it starts with just having a very high healthy degree of suspicion. If your child is sick, if your family is having some of the weird things that we talked about, just because someone said you don't have mold doesn't mean there isn't. Now with that, mold can be at school. I've I've seen kids, you know, get exposure at school and the reason why they were sick is because of their classroom gymnastic gyms, ABA centers.
So, I' I've had a few kiddos where they were the autistic child was going to a center to get therapy, and it turns out that therapy center was the reason for the mold exposure. And when you're in there three or four hours a day, that's plenty to make you sick. So, the home is not the only source. What can people do? I think the first place to start is by using one of these DNA probes as a screening tool. So the hermy, the environmental relative moldy index or mold index was basically a tool that the EPA created, I don't know, 20 plus years ago. And basically what it is is you take a little swifter pad, you gather dust from around your home, you send it off to one of these labs, they do a DNA check on the dust to see if there's weird fragments of potentially toxinogenic molds. And I find for most people, you know, who may not be able to find exactly the right inspector or they don't want to spend $5,000 on the initial screening for $250 bucks, it's actually not a bad way to check. And if you want, we can include in the links there. There's a conversation I have with, you know, two of the smartest environmental experts where we get into all of this. So, I'm happy to share that if that's helpful. Two of the companies that these environmental experts have recommended is one called Envirrobiomics.
Uh there's another one called Liz Biotech, L I S B I O T E CH, that are excellent companies that basically for 250 bucks you can buy one of these. One key thing is to not clean or dust your home for at least 10 days. Let the dust settle. So, if you've just gone around even with a natural cleaner and sprayed that, those cleaners actually inhibit the DNA fragments to be picked up by the technology. So, you get this thing of like, oh, our our home looks pristine because none of the molds are showing up. And that's actually kind of an inhibition they call it.
>> Yeah, I know. I agree. I do like the testing. I do find that at least it's a good screening. It's not a perfect tool.
it um you know gets you in the ballpark and you know I I I think it's for the price I think it's a really great place to start especially if uh you know symptoms support that there could be a mold exposure and then and then the other the other two things I'll say or one thing I'll say is yeah finding the right inspector is is is really you know can be really challenging and there's a really great uh website that I I I use quite frequently with patients, the is ai.org.
They have a a kind of a directory of the inspectors that are more in tune with those that have environmental sensitivities. Uh so they seem they they seem to do a more thorough job. I do find that list quite resourceful and and we can certainly include the link uh to that in the show notes, but uh yeah, so like that's one way that I've I've observed it can be helpful to find a good inspector from there. And then you also want to make sure somebody takes a look at your if you have one an HVAC unit just because that can be a, you know, a major source of of microbial growth or mold growth because it's you gets a lot of can get a lot of moisture in there and now you're blowing potentially mold throughout the entire home. And so that's a very important um source that we don't want to miss. And not all inspectors will look at the HVAC unit. So, you may actually need a a dedicated HVAC consultant to open it up and and take a look in there. U and oh, I guess one thing I'm curious your thoughts on any value of the those petri dishes, the gravity plates that you you put in your home and open up the lids and you look at the, you know, see if there's mold that grows on them. Have you found any value of those or have you used those very often uh with patients?
I I I started using those a while ago and what I found is they're not very reliable. Uh because the mold spores have to land in the petri dish for the for the mold to grow.
And as an initial screening that creates a whole lot of variability because if let's say in your room one wall has contamination you happen to put the mold spore relatively close to one wall but the other wall is where the contamination is you're going to get a false read. So I think the Hermes are a great starting point. Now, if someone on their own says, "Oh my god, this army is really terrible. I want to try to figure out where the the contamination is," and they buy 20 or 30 of those petri dishes and they lay them all over the house and then one room gets, you know, super funky growth and then the other areas don't. It's a way to try to hone in. But as a general initial screening, I think the Hermy is a far superior screening tool. Yeah, that brings up a good point.
I mean, if the army looks concerning, which I'll say that interpreting it is not always the most straightforward. Um, it gives you a score on there, which is not very helpful. So, that it can be helpful to I know there's another company uh called the the dust test where they actually give a a score on there. So, that can be helpful for patients. But basically, if if the um well, what we can do in the show notes, we we have a a way to help interpret that. So, we can include that just to provide some guidance there. And then if it does look concerning, the next step is then I would suggest uh that's where having an inspector come in. I think that's probably the most uh reasonable next step instead of trying to do the petri dishes. And it's just and then if there's mold growth somewhere on one of the petri dishes.
Now, I would still suggest getting an inspector anyway. So I I I think that's kind of the the algorithm, if you will, >> with the Hermy test. I 100% agree that the actual Hermy score that they give is pretty much useless. But all of these companies give a Hurtsme score. Uh and it turns out the Hurtsme 2 score, which is what Dr. Shoemaker helped create is actually a much more sensitive way of looking at the level of contamination because that score specifically is looking at the essentially the toxin producing molds and then the very sensitive water loving molds. So usually if someone focuses more on that hurts me score which is included in both of these tests that I mentioned that is usually a better indicator of you know if there's something spooky and I think the hurts me above 15 is kind of a cut off of like ah maybe there's something spooky and then once you get into the 30s and 40s then uh the the spookiness of of the contamination goes up.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Great point. Yeah.
Let's talk about so we talked about the home. How do we know? This is the, you know, the the juicy part of the conversation. How do we actually test for this in the body? Uh, which, you know, there's a lot of debate over what the best tests are and and you know, there's urinary micotoxin testing, there's the blood miccotoxin antibbody testing, there's organic acid testing, there's a whole array of testing. And ad, you know, it can get very confusing for patients. And and admittedly, you know, us at our clinic, we've gone back and forth a couple times on what we think is the I don't want to say best test, but perhaps the most clinically useful test. And we've we've definitely gone back and forth based upon just experience with patients. And you know, we learn about another test, we try it, we see how it is in our patients. And so, yeah, there's a lot to cover here.
And I want to give just some, you know, some overview on how are you thinking about testing and yeah, what's your overall approach for when identifying mold in particular versus uh yeah, so let's let's let's start with that. How how are you testing for this in in your patients?
>> Let's say you know family is just starting off and you know after this conversation they say gosh like a whole lot of what's going on sure sounds like what's happening to me or my child. you know, is this exposure real? Um, so to try to see or validate that this exposure may be happening, uh, you brought up multiple, you know, tests that are commonly used. I know that in adults, uh, the urine testing, so micotoxins, mold toxins can't be measured directly because they're the levels in the bloodstream are are not high enough to easily be measured. And bacterial endotoxins outside of research labs are also extremely difficult to test because by the time you draw them and you test for them, they've already disintegrated. So you can't directly measure for these toxins in the bloodstream. So several companies have created these urine tests because the urine concentrates these toxins, the the micotoxins, mold toxins, and they measure them. What I found in the kids, and now I'm just strictly speaking as a pediatrician, is kids who are really sick lose the ability to push these toxins out into their urine. And commonly when you test kids who are exposed and those who have become sick, you will get a flatline. The the urine test a lot of times looks very normal.
The other part of the problem is, and there multiple studies that have backed this, when you eat mold toxins or moldy foods, those toxins end up in the bloodstream. They end up in the urine.
So sometimes you'll also get false positives. So if the kid has had, you know, one too many peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, that peanut butter and jelly sandwich is chalk full of mold toxin. So you can get a really scary looking urine result. And it's not because your kid is exposed. It's because beta peanut butter and jelly sandwich. So in my practice at least, I have basically completely stopped using urine testing for mold toxins in kids because of these two reasons. uh urine organic acids is basically a way to check the biochemistry of the body for mitochondrial issues, metabolic issues and you can also check for biochemical footprints of mold imbalances or fungal imbalances and mold imbalances in the gut. When I first started, I was using those as my primary tool to see if a child was exposed. And then when I finally put two and two together, I realized that about 60 maybe 70% of the time, these tests can look completely normal in kids who have been exposed because it only checks for imbalances that are coming from the gut. And there's multiple variables at play for the gut to go out of balance and for those toxins from the gut to then make it into the bloodstream to show up in the urine test. So, I test I use organic acids all the time, but I never rely on them as a primary assessment tool to see if a kid has been exposed. So, then you say, well, gosh, if this doesn't work, that doesn't work. What the heck do you use? Right? And for me, what I have landed on is really the blood antibbody testing. So, mold spores and mold toxins tend to really irritate the immune system. So it it's like a virus, you know, whether it's COVID or EBV or whatever, flu, right? Uh they all trigger a pretty strong immune reaction and you can actually use various tests to look to see if that immune reaction has taken place.
What I have now landed on is the test that Dr. Andrew Campbell and Ari Vojani created which is the urine or the blood moldtoxin antibbody which is called my mico lab. I would say even though it's a little bit more expensive about 400 bucks the sensitivity and specific specificity of that test is probably better than anything else that's out there. One caveat is about 10 to 20% of kids have a very abnormal immune system.
So their immune system has actually become suppressed from these toxins.
And when you have this kind of immune suppression, if you test their immune system to see if there's been exposure, you'll get this very normal looking test except the child has actually been exposed. But fortunately that happens less than 20% of the time which means you know the accuracy is about 80% which is right now far superior than anything else out there. Uh I'm curious uh what you guys have uh landed on in the adults. Uh well, first want to ask about the my Michael lab test because yeah, we definitely run that test and I I guess the one theme that seems to have come across or that have come up with the blood micotoxin and the urine miccotoxin testing is that I haven't seen and we haven't seen many negatives and so which is kind of concerning. you won't like we should be having some I would imagine some degree of ne you know negative tests with any of you know any test really it should be a degree of you know of this person does not have this based upon this test and so I am curious with the blood micotoxin test and we can show perhaps an image of what this what the range looks like but I'm curious so it's basically broken down by it's like a you know all these a list of different micotoxins on one axis and then it shows like a bar of basically what's the degree of immune response to it. So is it like a small response? It'll be like a small bar all the way up to like a you know high degree of reactivity. Um and I think it's listed as like one through five. One being a small reaction, five being a you know major reaction.
I is there a certain and I guess what I've seen is I' I've almost everybody has something show up on there and that's been where you know I'm not really quite clear how on how to interpret that and I'm curious do you what's been your observation there and is there like a threshold of by which you say okay this is like a this is likely significant versus this sort of negates the fact that this could be a a mold micotoxin issue. It's a really wonderful point you bring up and I think that there there's a so the answer is no there isn't a cut off per se because again there's variability with these tests and with that I think the clinical picture really comes into the the the really contextualizing how significant this conversation is right because these tests are all fallible. They're they're they're really, you know, really not at where they should be in terms of their total uh effectiveness, if you want. Uh and you know, in some of my presentations, I throw up this picture of the Flintstones with the, you know, car. I don't Maybe I'm I'm dating myself over here [laughter] because you're like, >> "Not not at all."
>> So, you know, we're in the stone ages.
We're we're literally in the stone ages when it comes to biotoxin illness and and really piecing together what's going on. And there are other ways to check the immune system, but at least in the kids, I found that sometimes some of the biomarkers that for instance Dr. Richie Shoemaker, you know, has found in kids, those are also not always reliable. And this is where the story of the individual really matters because what I will say is I can say with pretty high degree of certainty if your child was doing well and then you moved and then they started having weird issues and they started getting your infections or maybe your one child started becoming you know autistic or having learning issues and sleep problems and then someone else has now got sinus infections and ear infections.
and whatever else. There is no exposure that can explain this presentation as a whole. And in little kids, if you've got a child that was born and then the baby is now having collic and now they're having reflux and now they've got food sensitivities and now they've got eczema and now they're not crawling on time and now they're losing eye contact or whatever else, there is no exposure that can explain that. So, you know, part of what I do as a clinician is I spend an hour and a half and literally for every family is like, "Okay, I want to start from the very beginning. Tell me from the moment that kid was your baby was born, what happened and how did the story unfold?" Because that story of what is taking place and how these things come about creates a lot of context and helps us then say, "Oh god, like yeah, the story adds up or not."
And then as a clinician like part of my job is to then think about all the other factors like was this kid you know camping and they got a tick bite or they vacationing somewhere else and they got this did they go swimming in a lake and they picked up parasite because they had diarrhea for 3 days. Right? Like that is when then we we start looking at all of these other variables. And this is part of what makes this a little bit difficult. But I hope that with, you know, some of the stories and kind of context that we both talked about, you know, families will walk away and say, "God, that kind of looks like my kid."
And if you're saying like, "God, that kind of looks like my kid or my family."
That piece, what your heart is telling you will matter a thousand times more than any test.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I 100% agree. Yeah. I think that the testing really is supportive of the whole picture. it's not the definitive uh answer. So I that that accounts for that answers my question.
Um so yeah definitely a test on its own is in this context I would say probably not enough to steer the ship one way or the other but the whole story and the context like that's and then you add a test result. Okay, now we have a you know more stronger a stronger case to to make for mold and fungus in general. So, okay. So, yeah, that I mean we're yeah, regarding the urinary micotoxin testing.
Yeah, we like I said, we've we've rarely seen negative tests with that and and and you did a presentation a while ago where we actually took screenshots of your screen and there was these two urine pre and post test after a low mold diet and the the reduction in micotoxins from before and after was was dramatic.
And then we did an even shorter duration on a on a patient recently. We did a, you know, urinary miccotoxin test and then a three-day mold elimination diet.
And the the reduction was was like was quite ridiculous and quite dramatic. And we'll we'll share that on the screen, too. But just like a a land like a direct line down for all five of these micotoxins that were initially high and looked kind of scary and then, you know, majority of them normalized or near normalized. So that's why we're, you know, we're a little we're we're we're we're not using that test at this point.
Um, you know, the the from an antibbody perspective that makes sense whether it's to micotoxins or to mold. We and I do want to pick your brain on I I know I believe I've read that you will use antibodies against the molds themselves, IGG and IG um M and I think IGA antibodies. And so is that something you're using on a regular basis? Is it more case by case? I'm curious how how are you using the sort of mold, you know, so there's antibodies to the toxins versus antibodies to the molds.
And so now I'm asking about the the antibodies to the molds themselves.
>> So there there's a company called Alletess, A L L Ts. U two advantages to this company. One, it's half the price.
So it's about $200 versus $400.
Um the downside is the sensitivity at least in kids is not as good as the micotoxins. So sometimes I found that the alllet test did not show a reaction whereas the mold toxins did. Uh sometimes I'll consider this test whether there's a cost issue and I think in adults uh their immune reactivity will be more reliable. I also sometimes look at this test because what's cool about it is it shows an allergy response, an Ig response to the molds.
It shows the IGG response, which is the delayed immune response, but it also has an IgA panel. And the IgA panel is really looking at mucosal immune activation, right? Sinuses, airways, the gut. So in some kids where their gut is falling apart, right? headtotoe eczema, a horrible gastrointestinal issues, chronic abdominal pain. Sometimes I'll use that test because if the IgA starts popping up for molds, what that is suggesting is somewhere fungus has started setting up shop and you've got what probably is colonization.
So then really using a lot of targeted antifungals and you know mucosal repair what you touched on the sinuses and so forth uh or the gut itself to to address that that piece of the test sometimes uh becomes handy too.
>> Have you seen a a correlation with if somebody tests IGA positive on that panel? Is is there a and and we're going to get to treatment in just a moment. Is there a better response to treatment like antifungals? Does that seem to is it predictive or it's not doesn't necessarily always or more often than not line up in your >> it it doesn't always line up but if the IGA shows up positive u usually have I cringe and and you know borderline curse under my breath because that is a sign that there's some compromise and there's a flip side of this which is I find if you do any stool testing some of these biotoxin exposed these kids their IgA levels in the stool are borderline non-existent and when I do IgA testing actually measuring the IgA levels in the blood and there's a way you can do basically the subclass which is even more specific when I see that that's also a really terrible sign because that means that the immune system at the gut or mucosal surfaces that's supposed to be there to protect that child is basically asleep at the job and those are the kids that end up getting in the deepest trouble. So, this this is a little confusing to our audience because they're like, "Well, dude, you just said that the positive IGA is a problem and now you're saying the negative or no IGA is a problem, too." Both of them are an issue. When you see the IgA reaction on the test in a way that that's actually kind of reassuring because the immune system is still working. So in those kids like you still have an uphill climb because the fungus has colonized somewhere and it it takes a while to get rid of it. The kids that are even in a deeper layer of trouble are the kids where their immune system has fallen asleep because those are the kids that typically have the hardest, most complicated courses. And usually those are the kids that have a thousand food allergies. They've got chronic abdominal pain. They've had a million ear infections. They're just sick all the time. The failure to thrive. Like their presentation is kind of the worst of the worst. Uh and that has to do with basically their immune system struggling to manage what's what's taking place >> with stool testing. Do you find positive candida, positive uh a couple other fungus on there? any what I've seen is that I I mean I I had one patient who had diagnosed candida in her her esophagus and the stool test was negative and and so I I I've I've seen a mismatch and I have not necessarily relied on a stool test to rule out a candida or fungal issue in the gut any observations or what observations uh do you have with stool testing and and using that to help say yes there's candida overgrowth or or you know pathogenic candida in the GI tract.
Yeah, really good point. U stool testing is great for a lot of things. It is I don't want to see Yeah, it's completely useless for picking up fungus. So, I use it all the time to check for all kinds of other things, but you should never ever ever ever rely on stool testing to detect any kind of fungal imbalance or exposure. And we think the reason why is the fungal imbalances are not happening in the distal colon. Right? You poop comes out, you check the poop, it's giving you a snapshot of what is happening at the very end of your colon. If the fungal imbalances are way high up, and we're not sure exactly where, probably in the small bowels, possibly in the proximal colon, so higher up colon. In that case, the fungus would not show up in the stool test. And and I've I've run I don't know how many hundreds if not thousands of stool tests on these biotoxin exposed mold exposed kids and it's never positive. Like rarely will you see it and usually those are the kids that are like terrible. Um but yeah, you can't rely on it.
>> Okay. Yeah, it's a great great pearl. Um yeah so just to recap on the testing I mean we're we're not using the urinary testing at this point the you know the the antibbody the blood IG G I to antibodies to molds we have been using more lately and um yeah so you know we're early on in our observations on is that is that more reliable in our in our patient population but also just to you know big picture we're not just just having a positive antibbody is I would say somewhat meaningless in this context when but when you add the there's [snorts] an exposure history or an identified exposure that's you know we're coming up with this this like framework of how do we how do we uh think about who is dealing with the fungal issue fungal overgrowth mold exposure we're thinking about exposure history of course and we try and you know piece parse that out as best we can along with that and this is more in adults we're looking for you know ENT like symptoms sinus sinus related symptoms ear ringing uh no you know nose running post-nasal drip maybe they like eye uh you know eye redness eye dryness really any symptoms in this this part of the body ear nose throat area we're looking for symptoms there plus uh you know systemic symptoms so you know neurological like we talked about fatigue uh probably a degree of digestive symptoms and the other unique aspect we're we're starting to do we're uh testing for is actually a uh maxilloacial CT scan in some of our adult patients uh looking for actual um actual sinocitis documented and the reason we're doing that is if we can if a patient has let's say you know unilateral one-sided ear ringing or facial pain and on that same side we document um you know inflammation in the sinuses and we document positive antibodies and an exposure history and other like neurological symptoms. Okay, now we have a really strong case and now the other important part of this is what is the response to treatment. So that's kind of the framework we've been putting together. Um because in con you know conventional medicine they they they've the val there's validation for the IGG IG antibodies uh for molds the reference ranges are in the way that we're using them are not they're not it's basically if it's greater than two I forgot the unit but basically if the antibodies is greater than two it's considered positive and and so we're not just going based on if it's three oh you have mold it's if it's like I've been seeing in the 30s or 40s or 50s so you more than 20x 30, you know, 30x normal. Um, plus all the other parts of our framework that I just mentioned, that's how we're thinking about uh, you know, identifying if somebody has a mold or fungal issue versus somebody who doesn't. And, uh, yeah, we're looking to to publish on this actually. So, we're collecting data right now. We're in the process. And so more to follow on the the validity of this framework just because we we realized just using urinary miccotoxins was not it wasn't good enough for for us at least and uh just again because almost everybody we've tested out of hundreds of people most were positive that's not very uh from our perspective not very helpful. Uh we want to get some negatives in there and uh so yeah I mean that's that's that's our framework and we'll certainly have more to follow on that. I I I do want to move on to uh to treatment since you know it's kind of the last part here and uh I know we're uh coming close to to uh our our our conversation uh ending in a little bit.
So I want to make sure we get to some some important treatment information.
Um, so I I know we talked about with with treatment, of course, you know, we won't go into detail on this part at all, but we want to make sure the environment aspect if there's a mold in the environment and and it's, you know, notable enough to be causing symptoms that has to be remediated and, you know, that's that's its own conversation. So, I'm just going to, you know, we we'll probably do a video on that at some point, but that's, you know, super important regarding other aspects of treatment. So, we covered how the, you know, at the core of it, once the environment's been uh been addressed and somebody's still having symptoms, now we're probably left with this dispiosis that's led to this leaky gut causing immune activation, causing systemic inflammation. So, where where are you starting with with um with patients from a from a treatment perspective? Um I know it's a broad question. Uh and I and I you know I know you have a a framework that's that's written out um on uh Substack for at least in particular for or is it Substack? Is that what it's called? Um >> yeah.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um but so I know like that's that's right now we can certainly link to that but I want to cover perhaps the what you feel are the most important components of how you treat a child with um with a you know mold mold uh yous issues.
>> Yeah. And uh you know since the time I published that substack which is probably year and a half ago the model has kind of changed. So I first come in and address some of the it it's still most of it is still valid. There's just some additional things that have come into it. I first come in and look at shoring up the child's immune foundation and then with that a few other things.
And why I do that is if you ask like where again where does this biotoxin illness come from right what is one of the primary roots it's inflammation right and it's inflammation coming from the gut so one of the things and that substack protocol uh starts with anti-inflammatories two basic supplements a DAO enzyme diamine oxidase enzyme which breaks histamine down which is one of the perpetuating compounds in the gut that drives inflammation And then this thing called miraa which is ludolin with this fat called pa which also has mass cell calming properties and also some properties in calming down the inflammation in the nervous system and the reason why I start with those with some zinc and D and this is in the milder kids in the more severe kids I'll use compounds like chromolin sodium ketophen etc. But really the first kind of approach is let's calm the inflammation down.
And with that in now treating a lot of kids, I've I've ga been able to use the treatments as a way to gauge these kids, the kids that are in relatively clean environments that have mild to moderate amounts of gut inflammation, systemic inflammation, etc. those kids with that basic combination D, zinc, miracine, digest will start improving. So that's about 30 to 40% of the population of kids presuming they're still not living in high amounts of toxicity, right? And their diet isn't terrible, right? If they're eating processed foods and candy and food colorings and chemicals like that, that's a different ballgame. But 30 to 40% of kids will improve. there's another let's say 20 to 30% where their level of inflammation and usually the severity of their presentation is is just higher and those are the kids that now I'm using the pharmaceuticals instead of the supplements because this population generally does not tolerate the miraculin for whatever reasons that I haven't been able to totally understand will trigger these kids so they'll actually be kind of more anxious more irritable they they more digestive issues so forth whereas the pharmaceuticals they tend to do better with one of the other things that has changed for me is I am now introducing mitochondrial support in much more uh early in my treatment phase because one of the things that has become really clear to me is one mitochondrial errors and energy production issues are rampant in these kids I'd say upwards of 80 to 90% of them if you test them have pretty severe mitochondrial issues. And when you have these mitochondrial errors, you you have abnormalities in the immune system.
There's fascinating articles that talk about how this exacerbates mass cell instability and then with that you have adrenal issues and a host of other things which creates further instability in the system. So, as I'm treating them to calm their immune systems down, as soon as I've I've been able to get that to happen, some mitochondrial support starts coming in to start really bolstering their system and kind of improving vitality. And then from there, we start marching on into the actual like gut rehabilitation.
>> Okay. And um yeah going back to the pharmaceuticals you mentioned chromolin and keataphphen those are both mast cell stabilizing medications. So they help to basically calm down those overactive over overzealous uh sort of traumatized immune cells which um allows for subsequent treatments to be better tolerated and um yeah and also I see the same thing we that's actually our same approach with adults is that when we are suspect mold and there's like this this picture of just heightened reactivity we are starting with more immune modulating mass cell calming supports including over-the-counter antihistamines uh and then perhaps chromolin keatophen even things like uh in adults not in kids but tepatide uh you know the GLP medications which have been shown to be quite helpful for mass cell uh because we've seen that if we go right into killing the fungus in the body without doing that ground work it just it actually makes this the whole situation generally worse. um not for everybody but it's happened enough where we we definitely don't want that for that individual. So I am curious what mitochondrial supports are you using a couple of uh the more common ones.
>> Yeah. Uh so for the kids who are able to tolerate them there there's several really great uh cocktails out there. Uh my favorite one right now is through this company called ANRC Autism Nutrition Research Center. I think ANRC and they've got this ANRC multivitamin plus which is this this really wonderful cocktail of B vitamins, all kinds of antioxidants, you know, etc. Another great product is from this company called Neuro Needs.
They have this compound or combination called energy needs that tends to work quite well. So I start I I use that in the highly sensitive kids. Sometimes I'll just start with carnitine and CoQ10 because the B vitamins they can't tolerate early on. So I'll I'll be a little careful depending on kind of how the child is presenting >> and and then from a you know a gut perspective. So there's the antifungals that we'll talk about. Um there's nice statinazol.
Is there anything you're doing digestively prior to that? any probiotics, um, amunogloabbulins, anything that you're using for modulating the microbiome and and helping to, you know, support that intestinal permeability, the leaky gut, or is it right off to the antifungals at this point?
>> Um, I I I don't use probiotics because most of the children that I see, and, you know, I get the kids that are usually not very well off in terms of how sick they are. So in those kids, probiotics are a bit of a gamble because you don't know what their immune system is going to tolerate or not. The imunoglobulins, especially the purified ones, SBI protect megaG are fantastic.
Um so I I definitely use those. Uh sometimes butyrate uh is very well tolerated and I'll use that kind of in the earlier phase. Um, a lot of times once the anti-inflammatories have worked, started working and you know, you're addressing a few nutritional needs, I'll just go straight into the antifungals and that just becomes another layer of anti-inflammatory immune modulation.
>> Yeah, let's let's talk about it. I mean, I think that's uh we've really been diving into this medication and yeah, lots to say about it. Um yeah, you have you have um some really interesting perspectives on it from the research you've done on on it. You know, it's not just an antifungal, but also it helps to modulate the immune system and uh for the audience at Chonazol, it's antifungal. It's a prescription and it's, you know, it's effective at killing uh fungus like candida and molds and um yeah, so I'd love to hear what you what you notice when you treat kids with it.
>> Yeah. What I noticed early on and you know, by no means that I'd come up with this treatment. You know, the autism community has been using this for eons.
Dr. Andrew Campbell has talked about this forever. Uh but what I noticed early on is I had some kids where literally like two doses in all of a sudden the child is changing in their way of you know interaction. They're making a better eye contact. They're calmer. They're more regulated. And you know after seeing that a few times I told myself like there's no way this antifungal is working just by getting rid of fungus because you can't get rid of fungus that quickly. Like you don't shift the microbiome or the microbiome in two doses. It just doesn't happen.
And that that's when I went and digging and you know it turns out a as a whole right there are the antiparasitics they're using them for cancer treatments the aols which then come into the antifungals antiparasitics that aol kind of frame if whatever you want to call it ring uh actually has fascinating immune modulating properties and it turns out itonazol which is the one that covers molds more so than fluconazol actually has all kinds of fascinating immune modulating properties and through multiple different pathways, it actually acts as an anti-inflammatory within the nervous system within the gut. And then secondarily, you've got the antifungal effects which then as it's knocking down candida and the various molds that may be growing in the body that enhances the anti-inflammatory effects that are there. So just for context, so with itazol, there is different forms of it or formulations. There's the name brand which is called Sporinox, which is if you don't get it covered by insurance, it's like $3,000 a month or something ridiculous like that. And then from there, there is uh generic at Draconol.
So that's when you can get it, you know, for far far cheaper, maybe like 60 bucks a month or, you know, plus or minus. And then there's also compoundol where they make it with the powder um that you know pureconol powder and they put into a capsule. So I what um is there any because we've done a lot of digging in this area and I'd love to hear so are you using more one or the other you know generic the name brand compounded like what are you typically >> I find the generic has worked just fine in my patients and I actually in the kids dose it at every other day so I I intentionally use lower doses uh I don't push to the maximum dose that that you can uh and I find that it works just as well. So you get all of the benefits in the gut, you get all of the benefits in the immune system, you don't get the toxicity. And one of the reasons why I don't push it isol in particular does have some mitochondrial, you know, potential to disrupt the mitochondria.
So the cardiomyopathy that the the heart uh toxicity that it can cause the liver toxicity that it can cause I believe is actually because of the mitochondrial effects. So one of the ways that I use it is just maximum every other day dosing at usually 100 milligrams per day because it seems to do all of the good things without creating as much toxicity.
>> That's great. Um yeah and the thing that we're diving into is the at least in adults the absorption of itconol just because there so there are known absorption issues with genericonazols [snorts] I guess itol in general but in the generic in particular uh like there's a study where they gave you know uh it might have been half of them name brand other half generics and in the generic group only 27% or so of achieved like a sufficient level in the blood whereas uh in the name brand 73% did and and we're we're also studying this where we've we we're running this it's called therapeutic drug monitoring uh where you basically test for ital blood levels after a you know after you've been on the medication for about 2 weeks and you test them in the blood. out of the four people we've done this on so far, only one's been in that therapeutic level uh or or at least close to it and that's the only one that's seen any kind of improvement. So there at least with our four adults that we've tested this on monitoring the levels in the blood has been very valuable and it's and it's it's matched the it's correlated with the degree of improvement or lack thereof in those individuals. And I know, you know, you and I I messaged you a while ago and I know you were um you were not necessarily doing that in your patients and but it also sound like it's but and this is where I wonder where with what you're saying with this immune modulating effect. I [snorts] wonder well backing up I mean in kids maybe it's absorbed differently. It probably is. Are you seeing in in kids you're giving atroconazol to just perhaps zero response like there's a clear fungal component but they're not improving from itconol is that and like they're not in the environment anymore or is it generally like when you give it and it's appropriate timing it generally it works for them >> in the right child at the right time works really well if you know I've had some cases where it turns out they didn't have a fungal issue and they had mopplasma, they had lime, they had a whole bunch of other things and I was barking up the wrong tree. So for the right person at the right time, it it works very well, but that's probably the most important thing right there.
>> Awesome passion. Well, you know, I I there's so much more we could we could probably talk about. Um, you know, perhaps a part two at some point, but um, yeah. Is there anything, you know, you wanted to uh, you know, share? Any you mentioned you're working on a on a book that's very exciting. I mean, anything you want to share regarding that or any closing thoughts in general about our our conversation? Yeah, I mean I I think the most important thing is I wouldn't be here if if I hadn't seen the kind of healings and just recoveries that I have. You know, I I've through this conversation and through this work, you know, I've had kids with level three autism, kids with off-the-charts anxiety, kids with severe learning disabilities, kids with, you know, debilitating abdominal pain, horrendous eczema, just transform into different human beings. You know, the autistic kids that that couldn't interact, couldn't look at someone are now the ones playing with other kids. The kids with debilitating anxiety, who couldn't leave leave the home are now the ones, you know, social butterflies. Kids failing out of school are now the top students. Head-to-toeczema is now totally clear. If I hadn't seen these kinds of possibilities, I wouldn't even be here. the as overwhelming as this conversation can be, the flip side of it is there's so much potential to do good and so much we can do to help if we just understand why people are getting sick.
And part of why I'm writing this book is just to really bring this understanding forward and to help families everywhere really be able to tap into this information so they they can help their children do better.
>> Amazing. Yeah. Well, I'm very much looking forward to reading that book and uh yeah, recommending it to our own patients and uh well, it's been an amazing conversation, Benjamin. Thank you for taking time out of your busy day to to to talk with me. So, thank you so much.
>> Oh, thank you for having me. It's it's been the pleasure has been mine.
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