Case In Point | Are prosecutors at risk and when municipalities fail?

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[00:00:22]Hello and welcome to Case in Point. I'm Joan Joseph. Good evening. Great to have you with us.

[00:00:29]that we take action against really uh mount mount uh uh push backs and and to an extent of even you know causing threats to to the lives of prosecutors and investigators.

[00:00:44]>> Our prosecutors so terrified of threats that they're unable to do their jobs. We look at how fear is being used as a weapon against them.

[00:00:54]And residents sick of their municipalities poor service delivery are turning to the courts. We ask, is it a last resort or the only way to guarantee services are delivered?

[00:01:06]But for now, the National Prosecuting Authority has laid a complaint against the Qua Fontaine magistrate in the Joseoni extortion and money laundering matter. Today all the suspects were granted bail. But last week, magistrate tule Dunjeni struck the case against Northwest businessman Siboni and three others off the court role because prosecutor Muselin Daba was a no show.

[00:01:29]She held him in contempt of court and issued a warrant for his arrest. The NBA suspended him in response, but as Seblesi reports, a fuller picture began to emerge in the days that followed linked to serious threats against prosecutors.

[00:01:46]Prosecutors act as gatekeepers of the criminal justice system with the mandate to institute criminal proceedings on behalf of the state. They are supposed to prosecute offenders without fear, favor or prejudice.

[00:02:00]But in a recent extortion case involving Bumalanga taxi boss Joe Ferrari Siboni and his associates, state prosecutor Muselin Daba found himself on the wrong side of the law after failing to appear in court. I think this is one classic case of undue delay of a proceedings and I'm inclined therefore as I do now strike the matter off the role.

[00:02:31]>> On the day in question, Daba reportedly indicated he was on his way to court but never arrived. Initially, the NPA suspended him. This is >> this is unprecedented.

[00:02:44]NPA was established on 1 August 1998 and it has never happened in the history of the prosecution that a prosecutor does not arrive in court with no explanation up to now and he is convicted of contempt of court. A warrant of arrest is authorized against him. Now is sought after by law enforcement. Now, one wonders if indeed can we safely say there was unreasonable delay?

[00:03:12]>> Was this the only legally permissible mechanism that the magistrate had to invoke in circumstances of this nature?

[00:03:21]That's a homework for us.

[00:03:24]>> The prosecuting authority has now filed a complaint against chief magistrate Tonjeni and the case is back on the roll.

[00:03:31]>> The certainty has reached that uh it will be enrolled uh tomorrow. It has also changed its tune against Daba filed an application for leave to appeal N Daba's contempt of court conviction and its accompanying arrest warrant.

[00:03:46]>> All we know for now while investigation internal investigation is going on is the fact that um he he was told that he will be eliminated if he goes to the court on that day. Last month, the NPA condemned social media threats against a prosecutor involved in the Julius Malemma firearm case in the Eastern Cape. Once again, this has thrust the safety of prosecutors into the spotlight. In August 2021, advocate Vugil Gana was killed by a man pretending to be an e-haling driver in the Western Cape. Four months later, Lunabo boy was shot and killed outside Kosuru Natal's Umlazi court where he had been attending a case involving hitmen.

[00:04:31]In April 2025, Elona Sbula from Enro in the Eastern Cape was shot in cold blood.

[00:04:38]And in July 2025, Tracy Brown from also in the Eastern Cape was killed outside her home. These deaths are all suspected to be linked to their work. uh we work with the police. We've got uh uh the the the the security division in NPA. They work together to ensure that uh the security measures are in place.

[00:05:02]>> For now, it remains unclear who allegedly threatened Nava.

[00:05:07]The increasing safety concerns have led to stakeholders pushing for a policy on their protection. Its draft is expected to be tabled in parliament next month.

[00:05:17]Seblesi case in point.

[00:05:22]Well, >> let's get to the bottom of this with our first guest, Kaiser Kanyahu, who joins us online. He is the NPA spokesperson you saw in that insert. Good evening to you, Mr. Mkanyahu. I'd like to get a sense of the background to this. I mean, there are two reasons that appear to have emerged in reports uh for for the prosecutor's non-attendance that day.

[00:05:42]One is that he had other matters to attend to, which he flagged with the magistrate. The other is that he received death threats. Is either one true?

[00:05:51]>> No. Both of them are put up and and and the we that's what we are now trying to investigate as the NPA to understand the V whether there's truth in in this matter or not. Therefore, it is very important for us to understand that h indicated that on the day in question, he was trying to drive down to uh to the court and on the way to the court, he was informed that they there is an intention for him to be eliminated.

[00:06:24]Therefore, we are looking into those matters and we hope that by the end of the week, early in the week, next week, we will have answers around all of those things. Mr. Kane, you know that a number of your prosecutors now have met a violent end. Are are you able to provide the requisite protection for them under the current circumstances?

[00:06:47]>> We we can safely say yes, we we we are because we are working with the police around these issues and we are also having our own security within the NPA to try and do that. But also we we profile the cases especially what the so-called high-profile cases. We we profile them and make sure that we understand the dangers that are around them. And that is why if you have seen in the cases that are high-profile would have then gotten to court and there will be serious security around the prosecutor and around the court itself.

[00:07:21]>> I mean we we know you immediately suspended the prosecutor when he didn't show up in court. Does he remain suspended?

[00:07:29]Yes, he is rem he remains suspended because we are doing our internal investigation about the veracity of the things that he has alleged and and and we are doing that as a precautionary measure in order to make sure that we understand what the issues are and we are able to then protect him from the the environment of having to be while dealing with these issues continuing to do his work and and that is what we are we we are doing but also something that I need to emphasize is the fact that you must understand that by the virtue of the fact that he was found to have in contempt of court and a warrant was issued against him. That in itself was saying he was not going to be able to continue doing the work and therefore we had while we are protecting him with the leave to appeal so that we appeal the the the the warrant that was there and also the the the fact that he was found to be in contempt. We we protecting him in that so that he's not arrested and then we can deal with this internal part of of of the investigation. I want to come to the magistrate's actions in just a moment, but I I need to ask you first, are many of your prosecutors indicating to you that they're currently under threat or under pressure because of the cases they're fighting in court?

[00:08:49]>> Not necessarily many, because you must understand that we've got so many courts in this country and the cases go on on a day-to-day basis. But where there are instances which cannot be regarded as many uh we we then are informed about it and then all the security measures are done around those particular prosecutors that are involved but we cannot say there are many majority of the matters that go into our courts go through very smoothly. I'm wondering why your prosecutor, if he received death threats on the way to the court, did not contact his immediate line manager or, you know, whomever it was within his fold who could actually receive a call and and and and tell them in no uncertain terms that he was too afraid to to pitch up in court that day.

[00:09:38]No, obviously people react differently to to the the shocks that they get, but but uh the the the prosecutor concerned informed another prosecutor in the court to indicate that to the magistrate which we believe was done. But all of those uh things as I said are part of the investigation that we are doing and we'll get to the bottom of it and understand what happened and what did not happen so that we also have the learnings of how things happened and how we can prevent them from happening that like that in the future. So, so from what you already know, it was already flagged with the magistrate before she began the case that morning that that your prosecutor's life was potentially in danger, that he had received death threats and she still went ahead and um and said held him in contempt of court and issued arrest an arrest warrant for him. Is that correct?

[00:10:31]>> Yeah. From what we are we the information we have is that she was informed in chambers around the fact that the the prosecutor is not going to come but like I said those matters are the issues that we have referred to the commission the magistrates commission against the magistrate because we believe that there are certain things that did not go according to the decorum and according to the law also.

[00:10:54]Therefore, it was important for us to then refer this matter because now we were dealing with the conduct of the magistrate and the only body that can deal with the conduct of the magistrate is the magistrate's commission. That >> this is a really important question. Do you believe that the magistrate was simply hasty in in declaring that the prosecutor should be held in contempt or do you think something untoward could have happened here?

[00:11:18]Yeah, we don't know obviously but we believe basically that in terms of the law just starting with the fact that h the prosecutor is is is the one who supposed to be calling the case because he's the one who's bringing the case to the to to to to be dealt with in court. Therefore in this particular instance when the prosecutor is not there we wonder who called the case but also we wonder also around the issues of the use of language by the prosecutor where by by the the magistrate because if if we are engaging with the prosecutor and the prosecutor says I'm not available and you use words like I'll if I have to I'll shove it down the throat. So some of these things are concerning in as far as as as these issues are are concerned. But also we we wonder whether that was the correct remedy for the for the magistrate to then decide to strike the matter of the role and also do a contempt of court in absentia because now the magistrate would not have had the sight of the of the prosecutor and then also they do a warrant of arrest. Therefore, all of those are questions that we are raising and they need to be answered in in other avenues either through the lift to appeal that we have put together or through the conduct issues in relation to the magistrates commission.

[00:12:40]>> Mr. I'm going to ask you to stay with us as we continue this conversation on case in point bringing us that important background and we'll further this discussion with two more guests after the break. Stay with us.

[00:13:00]Case in point continues. We're looking at just how tough it's become for state prosecutors to tackle serious criminal matters where their safety may be under threat. With us in studio is the founder and president of the judicial officers alliance of South Africa Neil and Karakhan while Kahisho Kahishaw is labor relations officer at the public servants association of South Africa. Welcome to you both. Thank you very much for your time this evening. Mr. Kagan, I'm going to start with you. How unusual was it for the magistrate to have held Mr. Intaba in contempt and issued an arrest warrant for him under the circumstances especially after what we've heard from Mr. Kanyak regarding the fact that the issue had already been flagged by the time the case started in court.

[00:13:41]>> Uh good evening Joan and good evening to your listeners. Uh the aspect of a contempt inquiry, remember there's different reasons for having a contempt inquiry. Mhm.

[00:13:51]>> You have a contempt in the face of the court where there's someone there and maybe misbehaving and the court can summarily have an inquiry or there could be something that might have transpired and then it's part of the record. The record gets transcribed. There could be a complaint. It goes to the NPA and the NPA looks at the docket and decides whether there should be any contempt of court proceedings. And then we've got section 106 of the magistrate squad act that actually deals with certain aspects of contempt. Uh ordinarily and I've said this before and remember as as the judicial alliance it's not our space in order to uh pronounce on these matters or pass judgments on any colleagues because these matters are already subsk and we are very mindful of that and thread very carefully around that. But uh but to answer you uh clearly, ordinarily that does not happen ordinarily because remember you've got different offices of the court in any criminal court. And I'll speak about the criminal court specifically. You've got the magistrate, you've got the court orderly, you've got the interpreter, you've got the prosecutor, you got the defense attorney, you've got state witnesses, you've got expert witnesses.

[00:15:04]any one of them could have could have been like warned to be in court. Mhm.

[00:15:09]>> And ordinarily it does not happen as a matter of cause that we hold contempt of court and or hold someone in contempt in their absence because if you recall I mentioned this previously the Audi alter rule remember if you get convicted of contempt of court it's technically a criminal conviction which means you could be sentenced to a term of imprisonment or you could receive a fine and remember the constitution protects us right to remain silent right to legal representation. All those aspects are very important. So the general rules that ordinarily apply will require that that person who is being charged should receive the same benefit as as an accused ordinarily. So generally speaking, we ordinarily don't do that.

[00:15:56]>> Yeah.

[00:15:56]>> But it's it has happened in in this case and obviously it's going to a higher court to make a decision and the high courts will have to pronounce on that going forward.

[00:16:06]>> Mr. Kahisha, let me bring you in here. I mean, there's clearly a line of reporting that it seems the prosecutor should have followed here, flagging any possible dangers he faced with his line manager. Is it not problematic that he seemingly didn't do that?

[00:16:19]>> Uh, good evening, Jen, and to your listeners, maybe before I responding to your question, let me first correct the inaccuracies that has been reported. Now on the 18th of May when this case was dismissed, advocate Mahunga from the NPA went on TV to say that one the the prosecutor has been suspended and then two that the NPA did not you know know about his his whereabouts. That is false that is false you ask a very pertinent question to Mr. Kanyaho to say that why didn't the prosecutor you know report? Yes. So we placed it on record to say that one the NPA was aware of the prosecutor's whereabouts at all material times he was communicating with his supervisor and also the state prosecutor in the gua fontain office and then secondly he has not been suspended. So what happened is that I have it on good authority that the MPA intended to suspend him. So they issued that letter but then before they issued him they want they asked him for his side of the story and then when they realized that he had good reasons not to be suspended so they did not. So this line that is suspended it's false it's false and we have got a duty as a PSA to ensure that you know proper facts are put in so that history can be recorded properly. It is not up to us to say what history must do with the NPA. Us is just to record the facts. So he did report at all material times.

[00:17:47]>> All right, Mr. Keka, I'm going to bring you in here because Mr. Kakisha has just dropped a bombshell here that we were not aware of. Number one, he says your prosecutor was actually in contact with you all along. So you knew his whereabouts as the NPA despite what Mr. Maga said, nor has he been suspended? Is is either of these comments true?

[00:18:08]Yeah, I don't know where the the the the colleague there in the in the studio takes this from. At the time when Mr. Mara went on to air, we had tried to look for the prosecutor and and we were not able to communicate with the prosecutor and that is why we then indicated at the time to the DPP in in Bumalanga to then convene a meeting with the with the prosecutor concerned.

[00:18:35]Therefore, I don't understand why he would make that and make it as a fact because we were dealing with that matter directly and we know what what what really happened and and and therefore it's it's a matter of his own interpretation. Maybe that is what he was told and then those are some of the things that we're dealing with. You need to understand and that is why it is was important for us to do an internal inquiry so that we follow up all of those things and understand what really happened because if we do not do that it will continue with this kind of yes this one said this this one said that therefore the important thing is we are doing an inquiry and at the end of this inquiry we'll be able to answer all of these questions without having them as hearsay >> but but let me ask you this question is it true that uh that the prosecutor has not been suspended As far as we are concerned, he was given a letter of suspension on the Tuesday after the the the day and that in question by the DPP.

[00:19:35]Therefore, I don't know anything different from that.

[00:19:39]>> All right. I'm going to leave that issue there so that it doesn't turn into he said he said essentially. Um but but Mr. Carrick, let me bring you in here. Uh do you think the NPA's call for the magistrate's conduct to be reviewed is fair? Well, the the NPA is entitled uh to do whatever they think is necessary.

[00:19:58]It is their prerogative. Uh particularly if they need to take a matter on appeal or take a matter on review. Ordinarily, ordinarily for one institution to take another member of another institution to their governing body as a complaint on issues that are currently seized within the court system. I think that's also uh unfortunately there is also that perception that that could be regarded as a form of intimidation because if the judicial officer is already being attended to in terms of the different procedures we have out there we have remedies out there. If there is issues regarding your cont conduct in the court or outside the court, that is where review proceedings come in. Or if there's got to do with the merits that transpired, remember we have a transcribed record and then you take the matter or an appeal. So there are remedies already to go into you know it it shouldn't be a trend that we would encourage because then quite easily then you get the the judiciary or any other role player the NPA or the or legal aid for example will take another member who is seated in court >> seized with matters to their governing body as a complaint when there's already mechanisms in place through the normal criminal procedure act through the normal rules of evidence for the higher courts to make rulings and to take issue and they will make findings and when they do make findings and analyze the evidence they quite easily as court when the judgment is delivered the judge the of the higher court will deliver judgment pronounce and also say I am referring my judgment to a certain governing body for their further action this although it has happened in this case shouldn't ordinarily happen because it should flow in the right manner because what are we saying our magistrates now are supposed to be intimidated because there's going to be complaints. Remember when it comes to the magistrates's commission uh they work very hard. They are inundated woodwork and they're undercapacitated.

[00:22:01]But they largely focus and deal with misconduct inquiries, complaints from the public generally and and the like.

[00:22:08]So now they will have to deal with this and what is the value of their judgment when the high court is going to deal with an appeal or a review? Whose standing is going to be stronger? So it to my mind it might have been something that they could have waited you know get the full evidence because they're still investigating. Everybody's investigating. So they should just get all their ducks in a row and go to the right forum and then then I think then the matter will be resolved amicably and correctly. But that's just our view now.

[00:22:37]I think it's a sensitive view >> and it's a cautious approach and we need to try to build alliances between the NPA, the prosecution, the legal aid, all of us. We need to really work together.

[00:22:50]We shouldn't be seen to be fighting each other. These are small issues that could have been resolved very easily, but it's just getting out of hand.

[00:22:57]>> I'm I'm going to ask you more about that in just a moment. I want to come to you, Mr. Kakishel to ask about this issue of of prosecutors now operating in what what has arguably become a far more dangerous environment than before. Do you think they are adequately protected?

[00:23:12]>> The answer is a categoric no.

[00:23:15]>> Why not?

[00:23:15]>> They are not.

[00:23:17]Here's here's a simple message. you know we we we submit that a safe prosecutor will be a competent prosecutor and the NPA is having all the sort of problems because of that inadequate protection now there's a number of reasons why the prosecutors are not adequately protected at the heart of it jousive it is the policy that they have so they have a policy that was approved in 2018 that policy is react ive it is not proactive. Now let's go back to the case in point the Bumalanga case. So what happened in this case is that the NPA did not provide protection to the prosecutor. the prosecutor had protection from SAPs TRT >> when you will see that when he went to court and that is when he felt that is when he felt safe primarily because the NPA's policy is saying that for them to be able to pro to to provide protection there must have been either a direct or indirect threat and a case need to have been opened now we are saying as a PSA that let us change this policy we have called last year already to say that let us review the policy the employers the NPA has committed to table that policy 6 months ago. The 6 months has come and gone. Now we are saying that amongst the issues let us let us tighten the polic let us tighten the policy. Policy is just but one matter. Secondly is the environment under which they they work in the courts. You would have seen that over the years over the past few months there's been a number of shootings you know and and prosecutors have been threatened and so on and so on. You played a clip earlier >> from 2021 December >> when Mr. boy was assassinated. That is where that is the first time where this call was made to say that let us let us enhance the policy. In February 2022, our our our members in the Western Cape, they made sub they've made submissions to the NPA to say that these are the submissions that we are making. Can we use use this to enhance your policy? And that has not happened. And these are some of the reasons why prosecutors are not adequately protected.

[00:25:28]>> I'm running out of time now. So I'm going to ask all three of you for a very quick answer on this. Very interesting.

[00:25:34]Shamala Batoy the the former national director of public prosecution said the NPA had been infiltrated by compromised people. So so I'm asking the question, can we either trust our magistrates, our judges or our prosecutors? And and let me start with you Mr. Kanyahu. Has the system been infiltrated?

[00:25:54]As far as we are concerned, we we cannot conclusively say it has been, but because we do not know what what what that is based on. Uh we we are working with with all other law enforcement agencies. Maybe just to answer one of the things that was said here to say that no these people were not protected by NPA but protected by the tech the police but but those police people work together with the the people in the NPA in the security system and they plan together to say this is how we are going to protect high-profile cases and how we're going to protect prosecutors but just to pass on that we we cannot say that conclusively that the people have been infiltrated But the other thing that I wanted to say before we knock off is the fact that the public of South Africa need to understand that if you kill a prosecutor, you are not helping a matter. Because sometimes people think that if they kill a prosecutor, the matter will disappear. It will not disappear. There will be another prosecutor. Therefore, it is not helpful for anyone to try and do this hideous act of of trying to eliminate prosecutors. We will make sure that we defend those prosecutors with everything because it is important that they are seen as public prosecutors because they represent the public of South Africa.

[00:27:12]>> What you said about the magistrates earlier, Mr. Carrick, quick answer from you on on whether magistrates have perhaps uh been compromised by this process.

[00:27:22]You you need to appreciate that if the director of public prosecution goes out there and says something of that nature >> and they are largely involved in investigations then there needs to be some type of investigation. There needs to be some type of inquiry and you need to get to the bottom of it. As magistrates we're not investigators. We don't go into different courts investigating other magistrates. The magistrates commission might have that capacity but ordinarily speaking their feeling on the ground is that there is a problem. I don't believe that the system is broken. I believe that the criminal justice system is still functional but there are elements that are bringing the whole system into disrepute whether within the judiciary whether within the prosecution whether within the police or enforcement but importantly I don't want to detract their positions and status currently when it comes to security on every level from the police to investigating officers forensic officers to the prosecution to magistrates to the interpreter the the whole system is very disjointed. So there's going to be a need for proper security to be allocated to the prosecution. And I agree with my colleague when he speaks about the dangers that prosecutors have. I used to be a prosecutor for many years and I know how it is on the ground. You're left to your own devices. Sometimes there's two to three prosecutors in one court and their workload is enormous.

[00:28:46]Beyond having two to three prosecutors with an enormous workload, they're dealing with syndicates. They're dealing with taxi violence. They're dealing with cash in transit. You must know there's no protection. What you've seen in the courtroom, what you've seen is all these police officers with high caliber weapons, but they are there largely to maintain order in the court. They are there to look after the accused and make sure the accused doesn't escape. There's no violence there. That's not personal protection for the prosecutor or for the magistrate. They're not getting that because once that court is out of session, they're left to their own devices. So that needs to be absolutely rebooked. And you cannot have a situation where only when there's an incident then there's a reaction. It cannot be. We need to be proactive.

[00:29:28]>> Fair enough. Last answer Mr. Kahishaw on the same issue.

[00:29:32]>> Yes. Uh the the prosecutors are compromised because of the lack of safety, lack of protection. Now like I've said that if we can have if prosecutors can be safe then I can assure you that the NPA will get the competence that they are requiring from the from the from the prosecutors. Now lastly we we urge the NPA to say that we have tabled this matter in the departmental bargaining chamber. Please we've already tabled please just ensure that you you comply with your own commitments so that we can ensure that justice is served. And I want to end this to say that justice cannot be served uh if prosecutors are not safe.

[00:30:11]Thank you, Joy.

[00:30:12]>> Thank you so much. Lovely having the three of you on our program this evening. Thank you for making the time to speak to us. Well, still to come on Case in Point, most municipalities in this country continue to receive qualified audits, which means you don't get your full range of services. But are the courts becoming the main battlegrounds in the fight for your rights? We'll find out after the break.

[00:30:41]Welcome back. South Africans are tired of living in municipalities that just don't deliver. From water and power cuts to potholed darkened streets and clogged storm water drains to uncollected refues, citizens have had enough. Yis Jamea looked into why residents and civil society groups have now turned to the courts to hold their municipal officials to account.

[00:31:06]As a mayor, when you reflect under your leadership for this term of office, are you proud of yourself?

[00:31:18]>> Not at all.

[00:31:19]>> Now, why have you not um led with an example and dissolve the municipality? as a collective type of municipality, I don't I can't have the powers to can resolve the council. I don't have the executive powers, but we are collective type of municipality. An admission of dysfunctionality by the Marcelonana municipality mayor in the free state under questioning from scopa members in parliament. She had to concede that the municipal leadership has failed the residents.

[00:31:53]This is just one of many examples of governance collapse revealed in municipalities in the country. The list is endless. Chap, if I may respond, I think firstly there's no association between this and the city of Tan that immediately immediately absolve me of any conflict of interest. Besides, I've got no interest whether financial or of any other sort whether they receive or they are appointed within that area where I'm assisting in review in in looking at the road documentation and what the requirements are. I've got no interest in that.

[00:32:38]Residents are the ones who bear the brunt with failing services, broken infrastructure, and mismanaged budgets.

[00:32:46]Despite the auditor general flagging these concerns over many years, many municipalities continue to be dysfunctional, financially, and administratively distressed. A significant majority routinely violate financial laws. According to the Department of Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs, as of 2026, 33 municipalities out of a total of 257 have been placed under administration, eight of which are in the Free State Province. In Mangong Municipality, the Auditor General has sounded the alarm.

[00:33:26]Financial planning and performance are in crisis. Capital expenditure sits at a mere 8%. Hangong municipality is the worst performing metro in South Africa based on 2024 2025 audit outcomes. It is technically insolvent with liabilities exceeding 468 million rand.

[00:33:50]They achieved only 50% of their service delivery targets while spending 113% of the budget. Officials site capacity problems leaving most maintenance in the hands of external contractors. The city's uh maintenance is actually implemented by in the main 80% of our maintenance is done by uh contractors that are employed uh by the municipality through our tender system.

[00:34:19]So in other words, we have capacity issues to a point where 80% is outsourced. In the Eastern Cape, five municipalities have also been put under administration. For instance, in the O Tambbo municipality, it was revealed that unregistered suppliers rake in millions.

[00:34:39]The auditor general's 2023 2024 local government audit report revealed that only 16% of municipalities achieved clean audits. The remaining ones struggled with severe non-compliance, leadership failures and an over reliance on financial consultants.

[00:35:00]Despite residents concerns, the pattern continues unabated.

[00:35:06]Uly Jamela, case in point.

[00:35:11]>> Well, let's get some analysis on this disturbing story. With me in studio is municipal lawyer and partner at HBG Schindlers, Shantel Gladwin Wood and the BLU residence associations.

[00:35:23]Mr. Cle, good evening to you. Thank you so much for coming in, Miss Gladin Wood.

[00:35:27]I mean, you you of course specialize in litigation around this and and I'm going to I'm going to get into the the litigation angle in just a moment, but I want to start with Mr. Okay. Um, in regard to the specific problems that you are facing in your municipality, what are the kind of difficulties you're having right now?

[00:35:47]>> I think if if we were to be very clear right now, it's the water, >> it's the sewage, it's the street lights, and it's basic uh J closing potholes.

[00:36:02]>> So, it's it's endless, you know. It's it I would go the whole evening trying to explain but everything you can think of >> and and I understand there are other issues that you're dealing with at at different levels. So it's not just the basic stuff there. There are other things that that you as a as a residents association are also having to grapple with and and these have been long-standing issues >> like hijacked buildings uh like sewage into the yak environmental impact a smelling river uh sulfuric quite a number of times in the mornings and and other issues that are really quite hard uh for us to get around but are working on them.

[00:36:42]>> Mr. I I assume that you have discussed these issues with your municipal officials that you've flagged them and you've said we've got these problems. I don't know how far back you've been doing that but but is it clear to them that these are issues that you are having to deal with daily as residents of the area?

[00:36:57]>> Quite clear. Two things have happened.

[00:36:59]The first one is we've asked for a meeting with them as the residents.

[00:37:03]They've come in. We've then uh had no traction. We then went to the RD which is the original director. We asked him to come in and he came in with all the entities and we did a whole drive through the whole of Bakloo for a whole day pointing out what the issues were and promises were made. The moment everybody drove out of Bakloo we were back to square A and it's still the same as it was before and then as the residents we are the ones now who are solving what we are paying for. So we are double paying.

[00:37:39]>> Yes. Yes. I mean I I think this is probably the the situation in which a lot of communities find themselves. Miss Gladwin Goodwin would rather you you specialize in litigation that that is linked to this non-dely. Do you find more cases regarding municipalities are ending up in court than ever before? It it is municipality specific but particularly in the large metros. Yes.

[00:38:02]And uh the trend I mean I've been doing this for almost the last 20 years >> and the trend is it's quite alarming. Um we have a full-time department that does pretty much nothing else and uh not because we want to sue municipalities but because there's such a desperate need out there for communities and for for individuals to to find a way to resolve these usually very longstanding and often very serious problems. I mean we don't think about you know an instance of overbilling perhaps um which is a few thousand rand that might not be a massive problem to a particular rateayer but having sur flowing in your property or for example being cut off illegally having no water or electricity because of a wrong bill that's a very serious problem and that's usually where we come in. I mean, we can't have imagined taking these issues to court 20 years ago, right? You you'd try and and pick up your phone, you'd harass an official on the phone at the municipality, and eventually, if if you were fortunate enough, you'd get your way. I mean, it it would seem that that the litigation process isn't an easy one, but but many residents associations and individuals are opting for this anyway. Absolutely. I mean, as a first point of call, you always need to follow the the legislated dispute resolution processes, and they're specifically created for citizens to be able to to help themselves.

[00:39:25]>> So, you need to follow, you know, phone the the telephone number, log a query.

[00:39:29]If that doesn't work, escalate it, write a letter of demand, and your municipal manager. There's a specific process in law where there's an appeal directly to your municipal manager who's meant to be the most accountable person in any municipality. They are the head of administration. The buck stops with them. So send a letter and appeal directly to the municipal manager. If that doesn't work, however, your your pleas are falling on deaf ears. And that's unfortunately when most people turn to the courts because realistically nothing else is working and they have no other recourse. So clearly, is this something that you'd consider doing as an association?

[00:40:06]>> We may get to that point at at the rate things are going and at the rate of the emails we've been sending, at the rate of all the contacts we've made, we we we will have to get to that point.

[00:40:19]Currently, we've got streets which are packed with uh rubbish and we've sent various emails. We've tweeted and we just getting no response from Crumb.

[00:40:30]We're getting no response from city parks, no response from anyone. So we we will if needs be get to that point.

[00:40:38]>> You know, I'm wondering it sounds like a very difficult process. What does does an association like Mr. Cleles need to to have done from a protocol point of view um to have covered before they they even think of going to a court? So it depends on the type of problem you have.

[00:40:55]Uh there are different ways to solve it.

[00:40:58]If you have something which is related to a municipal bill, there's a specific route that you follow which is set out in the municipality's credit control processes and that's very standard. Log a query, send a letter, escalate to the municipal manager. But if it's something environmental, for example, like pollution in the yukske, that is a much more difficult problem to solve and it involves often not only the municipality but other stakeholders, for example, environmental authorities or province.

[00:41:27]So it depends on the type of problem but to take for example something like um let's take potholes.

[00:41:34]>> Yes >> there is a process in Johannesburg which JR has set out and it's publicly available. Hypothetically if you follow that process it ought to be resolved.

[00:41:44]The problem that communities are facing at the moment is that there's simply no accountability when the processes are followed to the letter by residents and organizations and nothing happens. So, so this is this is not something that that one would recommend. Um, but but there are residents who sometimes threaten a rates boycott. Should one ever go that route? So, my personal opinion because it's a very controversial issue. One really does understand where the rates payers are coming from where they are paying for services and they're not getting them.

[00:42:18]>> But legally speaking, rates boycott are a no no. They are unlawful. So, I would not recommend it from a legal standpoint. So Mr. Cle, it looks like good old protest is going to have to be the way you go.

[00:42:30]>> It it and it and and we've threatened and if you if you are aware we sit between the N3. So every time we start saying how about we close the N3 everybody gets jittery but they all know because of the type of residents we've got we literally not one of us has got the time to go and sit on the N3. So I think that's the other part that the advantages are being taken on. Currently >> there are residents with rats like infestations because exactly of rubbish and rubble in the area not being collected by the city. So we faced with infestations like rats literally because the city is not coming in to assist us.

[00:43:19]>> Well, we're going to continue our discussion in just a moment. Let's take a short break. Taking legal action against your municipality presents a set of unique challenges. We'll highlight those after the break.

[00:43:41]We continue our discussion on case on point on residents who've taken their municipalities to court over non-dely.

[00:43:48]And we continue that conversation. Now, uh Mr. really. I mean, we we were chatting during the break about the the hazard that this poses, the health hazard that this poses to your community. You said that you were literally watching uh watching sewage run into the the Yikke River every day.

[00:44:04]And of course, there people downstream who who are sometimes drinking that water, sometimes bathing in that water.

[00:44:10]>> Definitely definitely there are people and there is also wildlife. If you realize uh Baklu is built right next to Moto Fontaine and what we've realized is there's now lesser wildlife in an area that had quite a lot and we still the only now wildlife we are finding is only rats. Uh the dies have moved on with the building also of uh uh bankenfeld. It's also forced some of the wildlife to run towards the areas which are quieter but the areas they're running to are the ones that have got sewage and not only that is is the river from sewage but also it's from companies companies upstream from Eden Vale who pump chemicals into the river and sometimes you can get that smell and again when you go to the city and you are saying find them it will take you close to 5 years to get someone from environmental affairs to come and find. We've got scrapyards. We've got uh car repairers in the area who we've taken the environmental health officers to those areas and those addresses, but still they operate. So, you know, there's a there's a wide range of issues here. I I wonder whether I'm getting a whiff of corruption as I speak to Mr. about his having addressed these problems repeatedly and there being no solutions. Um so so firstly I mean not that easy to prove corruption but but do you think with the range of issues that Mr. Cleia has highlighted as many communities are experiencing on the ground Miss Gladwin Wood do you think there is these cases are winnable in court?

[00:45:49]I think when one gets to the point where you considering litigation against immunicipality, you need to pick your battles and you obviously need to think about what you're trying to achieve at the end of the day. You are spending community money. So you you actually don't want to be spending it at all.

[00:46:06]It's a garage purchase. You want to do it as quickly and as effectively as possible and you want a lasting result.

[00:46:11]So are these cases winnable? Yes. But you need to be clever about the way that you litigate. So just to take the example that Mr. Cle gave of the the scrapyards and the uh the mechanics that are operating >> I would recommend instead of suing the municipality to make the municipality do its job because you know it's got all sorts of problems corruption mal administration not having a budget who knows what else. Um rather the residents I would recommend in that case take action themselves. they have the right to approach a court for the same kind of order that the municipality would get and they can enforce it in their own name. So they spend the same kind of money but they're in control of the process and the result that they get is within it it's it's an order that they can enforce themselves. So that's why I say it depends on the the specific circumstance. Sometimes you have to compel the municipality to take action but in other instances the rights vest with the rates payers or the residents themselves and we highly recommend following that route if it's possible.

[00:47:11]>> So so is it more cost effective that route?

[00:47:14]>> A lot of the time when you get uh court orders against immunality that's not the end of your journey. You don't hand them a piece of paper and go well my job is done. You need to fix this. You still have to make them actually comply. And some of the municipalities are quite good. They'll comply straight away.

[00:47:31]Others, unfortunately, you'll actually need to take further steps either by executing, so sending the sheriff to attach their goods in order to get payment if it's an order signing in money, or if it's something that the municipality has to do, like for example, switch someone's lights back on or adjust a bill, you may actually have to bring contempt proceedings against a municipal manager. Litigation should always be a last resort because it's really not the best way to solve things.

[00:47:57]Um, and it's it's long and it's difficult, but if you have no other option, it can be the light at the end of the tunnel.

[00:48:03]>> All right. Thank you so much for your insight into this, Miss Gladwood, Mr. Tle. Lovely having you with us in studio. And I I really wish, Mr. Tle, that you are going to be able to solve these issues in the near future. It it really does sound horrific. Thank you for sharing that story with us. Well, every week here on Case in Point, we bring you a new fact about the law. Did you know that chapter 4 of the municipal systems act 32 of 2000 provides for community participation in municipal affairs? In terms of the act, municipalities are obliged to encourage and create conditions for such community participation in municipal affairs, contribute towards building the capacity of communities to enable them to participate, allocate and use funds specifically to enable community participation and outline processes and procedures for such participation.

[00:48:54]Taking into account people who can't read or write, people with disabilities, women, and other disadvantaged groups.

[00:49:14]Well, before we wrap up our show tonight, if you're facing a legal or justice issue that you'd like us to explore, please email us on caseinpoint.

[00:49:22]That's one word, caseinpoint at sabc.co.za.

[00:49:28]That is a wrap from us for tonight.

[00:49:30]We'll see you next Thursday at 8:00 p.m.

[00:49:32]Take care till then from the team and me. Bye-bye.