LIVE: Korihor, the Atheist Legend of The Book of Mormon with Derek Lambert 📱

Added: 2026-05-07

[00:00:00]are live. All right, we are Hellfire Agency and Myth Vision. I just got started out.

[00:00:09]I want to say I'm not calling him Sky Daddy ever. Not even if there's a fire.

[00:00:17]>> Not even in a fire.

[00:00:20]>> So, so the thumbnail, we got to we got to briefly mention what the thumbnail is all about. Uh my audience won't know.

[00:00:26]you and I connected on Step Brothers. If you haven't watched Will Pharaoh and and like the the just the hilarious movie Step Brothers, we we probably watched that dozens and dozens and dozens of times. So, >> me this is how we we we relate to each other pastor than anything else. when I sent it to him when I sent to you uh back in 2024 when I started the church of Cororohor. I sent you uh this idea of you and I just sitting there wearing sweater vests and like posing step brothers like the poster and you're like oh oh wait a minute and then we started just throwing out memes at each other and I'm and it was so funny because I'm like it was just like the movie because there was this moment where I'm like did we just become best friends and you're like yep >> yep yep >> do you want to do karate in the garage?

[00:01:23]>> Yep. There's so much there. Even the uh I mean I still use those sayings every once in a while. They randomly come up.

[00:01:31]Like my brother the other day we're playing Call of Duty and he said something like Pan or Pam and I'm not sure what he says it. Did you say Pam?

[00:01:40]Pam Pam. Pam Pam. And he's like it's Pam.

[00:01:45]>> It's Pam.

[00:01:46]>> Yeah. And he's just So it'll only work for people who've watched the movie.

[00:01:52]>> Right. Right. And if you get you'll get our humor. But the one that really got to me I so I had I used an AI software for all of my um all my stuff and I I fed it a picture of Cororohor. I am Joe Rollins. I'm the first herald of the church of Cororohor which is a spiritual community for a for atheists and agnostics. And uh we use this meme basically of a man that is Cororohor and uh who's what we're going to talk about today. I fed it into I thought it would be so funny if we fed into this AI software my picture and yours and Corahors like we were three step brothers and I I fed it one of your pictures where you're showing these manly arms that you've got going on and these great tattoos and you got to see this one. I Oh, come on. Here. Let me get rid of this one. Remove >> Oh my gosh.

[00:02:55]Look, he's got my tattoos.

[00:02:58]>> Your tattoos.

[00:02:59]>> He's got my tattoos. Like, what's happening here, bro?

[00:03:03]>> It was so funny because it still keep kept his skin tone and everything, but it's just like these tattoos are too butch, too manly for you, Lambert. We're giving these to Corahor.

[00:03:12]>> Corore.

[00:03:14]So, someone might go, who's Corore? And I think we need to, we've done this before, but I guarantee you most of my audience hasn't watched our discussion.

[00:03:22]Who is Cororhor, Joe? Why? Why Corore?

[00:03:25]What's the big deal about this guy's name?

[00:03:28]>> I love telling the story of Cororohor.

[00:03:30]And as the first herald of the church of Cororohor, I get to do it all the time.

[00:03:34]Uh, and also I wrote a a book when I left Mormonism. It was I was a Mormon missionary in 2001 and I was in the Peruvian Amazon depressed as hell and realizing when as I looked around me similar moments to what you have had you described to we've talked about with your your sobriety and everything coming out of that I can't rely on God anymore.

[00:04:00]And it was around that time that I said, you know what, here's the thing is that in the Book of Mormon, there's this character named Cororohor who is not strictly an atheist. He is an agnostic atheist in his in his arguments. And he makes the best case, the most simple but but true case for why not only does he not believe that God exists, but he makes a case for why it seems like the church, the in his community in the Book of Mormon, the Nephites, the Christian church, uh who who are pre Christristians, right? uh that they are wicked and cruel and he can see through their motivations and see that they are only trying to glut themselves on the labor of the of the people and they want to exert control and power and coercion over people. It's so crazy to me. I it was at that time that I thought to myself, you know, it's wild to think that there is whether or not this story is true, which I don't buy that the story is true, right? that it came from the brain of Joseph Smith and everything that he has to say, his skepticism about Christianity at large is now really true about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It's it's >> so you're saying inside the way I'm trying to understand what you're saying is that inside the the Book of Mormon this story about Corore that it was invented by Joseph Smith as a way to rebut this let's say stand-in fictional character which may actually have hints at Thomas Payne and uh who's the other guy? Uh Ethan Allen and others who who seem to be in popular minds that were critical of Christianity, critical of Jesus, all that. um have actually factually come to be true, the actual case about Mormonism and they left this in their text. Like it's like do you not realize that this is self-defeating in a way?

[00:06:05]>> Right. Yeah. And it's kind of become a c a cross for them to bear in a real way.

[00:06:10]No, but I love that the way he said that. Yeah. So it I it's certainly a fictional story, right? the story of Lehi and his family coming over 600 years BCE, escaping Jerusalem. There's so many historical anacronisms in in the Book of Mormon as to make it, you know, there are big movements outside of the LDS church in Mormonism that have already abandoned the historicity of the Book of Mormon. Like people are ready to just walk away from it. And frankly, a lot of Mormons >> are are already abandoning it. Don't just can't say it. Um but the um but the the church defends it still and and that's why it's ironic because at the end of the day I think when I published the Cororohor argument in 2013 right after I was officially excommunicated by the Mormon church um I put in there a line that that's I still go back to again and again which is corahor represents the biggest secret for Mormonism and Christianity really and that is that it represents Joseph Smith's most closely guarded doubts about whether or not God exists.

[00:07:21]H >> and because because in the end what happens is this Cororohor goes around telling people his legit claims about why uh his his epistemology on his perspective of the world and it's very basic uh stuff anybody who has deconstructed religion knows things like empiricism makes an appeal to empiricism uh he makes an appeal to um to lock in tabul Russa he says that one of the best lines that Korahor teaches people is he says what in one of his debates he has three debates one of them Ammon just totally forfeits he doesn't even answer him a word Gdona is this laughable character who says to him who like hears his arguments and says okay basically I I understand that why you doubt that there is a god and why you doubt that there will be a Christ, but at the same time, consider how many people's hopes hang on this. So why you got to rain on everybody's parade >> and Corahor lays it out for him and he's like, it's immoral. You are taking advantage of these people. You are glutting yourselves on on the on the fruits of their labors and you do it to exert control over them and that's wrong. And the you you love to preach to us about how bad we are and how how immoral we are because we don't live by the effect of a frenzied mind, he calls it, and by the foolish traditions of your fathers. And he's making the the solid case. You got to think this is Joseph Smith looking into his hat with a rock and going and with a hat that that's well documented to be deep enough that you could easily put anything in the bottom of that hat and be looking at that and be like, "Oh, I'm looking at this rock." Supposedly, because he's got this rock that's got like this godly Bluetooth that connects him to the gold plates that are buried out in the yard somewhere so that nobody runs the risk of being killed from the holy light coming off of him. And so, and it's like, and he's got to sit there thinking, okay, before lunch, we're going to come up with all the reasons why it's totally legit to to question whether or not God exists, but in this character, I'm going to show that uh that no, it's totally rational to believe in God. And by the end of the story, it's so clear he has lost the point. He has lost it. He you know how sometimes you'll like sit down and you'll you'll say I'm gonna say this.

[00:09:55]I'm gonna do this and it's gonna go this and he's like and I I >> he's narrating what ends up in the Book of Mormon is your point. And that he thinks he's going to win this debate against a fictional guy he's made up that is kind of a reflection of his own doubts. But he ultimately the way he lo he loses because how does he have to he has to take this character out of his story? How's he do it? He has these people trample him. I mean, he gets completely murdered.

[00:10:22]>> That's right.

[00:10:23]>> You can't you can't win against him. You can't argue against him and like win a debate and then somehow you have the character run away like you do with Socrates who's arguing against the sophist and stuff. And they finally get so frustrated with this questioning they have to dip. He can't even debate against the own guy he invents in his own head. I mean, it's crazy.

[00:10:41]>> Yeah. And and it's interesting. I mean, there's a whole psychology game to be played here. I think I've always said in that, you know, Corahor represents his doubts. So what does he do? He strips him of his voice. Basically, in the in the debate with Alma, which is the third debate, the one where they really get into it, he lays out pretty clearly all of the same points that he laid out with the first two guys. So I'm like, okay, he meant for for this debate to happen with Ammon, but then figured out while he's sitting there reading his hat, I don't know what I'm going to say. Hold on. And so he creates the story where he gets kicked up to Gdona from Ammon and Gdona makes part of the case and then he's like uh you know I need a little more time and then he kicks him up to Elma and it's like he's keep he keeps trying to prolong the story so he can get to the part where he makes the case on how Joseph Smith on how Joseph Smith believer of God uh defeats Joseph Smith skeptic about God >> and this The case on how that comes to be, I think, is interesting. How it historically how we think that that actually happened. And Dan Vogle, who we've talked about briefly, makes a good case for this. Um, pretty much every ex Mormon critic that I know agrees with it. Um, and I'll talk about that. But the but the in the end of the day the proof the the debate is about it's not rational or reasonable to believe in God without proof that God has power. That's the thing that Cororohor keeps coming back. Show unto me a sign. And when they say you know a fool looks for a sign or you know it's a it's a sinner who seeks a sign and he's like groovy fine. Here's the thing. we're never going to believe until you show some kind of empirical proof.

[00:12:32]>> Right?

[00:12:33]>> And he says, "And the reason why I you have to show us something is because you have convinced us that this is a fallen people because of the sins of a parent, which is very if you know Christianity, and I who knows it better than you, Derek, you know, this is >> Romans Phil. I mean, >> okay. Okay. But you're in there. You're in there." Yeah. And and he says, you know, if if you can't, you know, I if you if we are responsible for the sins of a parent, he says, this is this is the thing. A child is not guilty because of its parents. And I'm and I'm sitting here looking at this going, this is kind of a if not a master class, at least a primer into all the internal problems with Christianity right there. And uh it's at that moment that Elma decides I'll tell you okay I will give you this for a sign. You will not be able to speak from this moment forward. And he takes away his voice and that is the worst thing he could have done for in my opinion because not only be he follows that up with Corahor then unable to speak and this is his living right. This is how he makes his his bread. He tells he pleads with him by writing to him and saying, "Please return to me the use of my voice. I admit everything. An angel appeared to me uh disguised as an angel of light, but he was really the de I now see that it was the devil and that it was, you know, and uh and he taught me everything I should say, which should make sense, which makes sense in Joseph Smith's brain, I'm sure. But that's the point where I as even as a Mormon I'm looking at I'm like >> so the atheist believes in atheism because an angel appeared to him and sold him on atheism.

[00:14:26]>> Yeah. It's it's assuming you and I and everyone who's an atheist technically based on this character Corore who represents everyone who's a skeptic of Christianity. Um we're all approached by demonic forces. We made a treaty with them. We agreed to them in a sense. we allow them to also dupe us. We we believe their own lie.

[00:14:46]>> Um and yet now we're like blind to the reality of we're just saying what the demon or the devil that approached us made a contract with us uh made us do.

[00:14:55]And then now he's now being shown. Okay.

[00:14:59]Okay. Okay. They now I know it's it was a demon that definitely a believer would make up that story. Okay.

[00:15:07]with no doubt a Christian would absolutely any form a Christian would definitely how often do we go no you really do believe in God they always say you know no no you really know that there's a God and it's like >> we're trying to tell you we really don't know that we we really are doubting this like we really do not have what you think we have you're projecting here like you assume because you've had experiences that you you know this guy I've had experiences I now look at them through a more rational lens and natural lens and he they like demonic kind of perception that they're painting. I think that's an interesting angle to consider. Joseph Smith's way of dealing with the atheist is not to win against them in argumentation. It's take their voice away and then like have this like I want to use an analogy to say there are scholars for example that look at John the Baptist in the New Testament, right? as more like a character. Now, it's not a this is not the mainstream position, but there are scholars like I've had Robert Price and others who've thought that, and he's quoting other scholars, too, who think that John the Baptist was inserted into the narrative in order to convince John the Baptist followers, the Mandians, and those who were following him that were not Christians. They didn't follow Jesus. They followed John.

[00:16:36]But what's the best way to get the John followers to join Christianity.

[00:16:40]>> So you have their guy in the story that says, "Look, look, I'm not even worthy to un loosen this guy's sandal." Like he is he is the man. This guy is the man.

[00:16:50]So now you >> I need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me, right?

[00:16:55]>> There you are with that damn Book of Mormon English. You know what I'm saying? But but I tell you, I was trying to read this story before we did the live and I'm like, "Oh my gosh, I do not miss this kind of like rhetoric the way that it's written, you know." Yeah. The whole So it's just harder to wrap your head around. But >> it it feels like not the same necessarily. Coror might be a standin for the rationalist, for the the post-enlightenment skeptic who isn't buying the story the same way John the Baptist, but John the Baptist was really representing a movement of people who followed him. And the Christians are absorbing the John followers into their cult by having their guy salute their guy, right? That John is saluting Jesus.

[00:17:35]That means you John followers, you mand with the program and realize even John recognized our Jesus. So I feel like Corhor is playing the same role. And it also is kind of warning you, Mr. Skeptic, Mr. doubter believe anyways because if you don't Corore had a nasty end and so did other people who didn't follow the truth you know it's the way he deals with his >> protagonist I guess you'd say >> right and and that's exactly it is that there's a there's an archetype in scripture of the doubter who has to be called out and we see it you know in like that line in the New Testament about you know almost thou dost convert hurt me to be a Christian? You know, we see it in uh we see it in Satan tempting Jesus in the desert and he's like uh you know, all of this will I give unto thee.

[00:18:28]You know, you it it's always setting up the bad guy to be the skeptic and trying to defeat him. But the case that that's made is never made so compacted for me as Cororohor into a character that has a motive. um including that the motive according to Joseph Smith it's it's ironic maybe not ironic maybe telling that his name is Cororohor this is not the first time in the Book of Mormon or last where Joseph Smith makes a character he doesn't like whose name ends in >> and and it's like everything this is all Joseph Smith berating Joseph Smith for his doubts anytime you he has these uh bad characters sometimes he has these bad characters he calls them And it's like so you got kneeh and you have kora And so it's like and for a man who very shortly in life after the publication of the Book of Mormon will have these rumors swirling about him cheating on his wife with teenage girls.

[00:19:31]>> A reflection of >> Yeah. And it's like >> there's there's something going on because he's he's very young when he publishes the Book of Mormon. And uh there's a I mean you can see that there's a lot of a young man's struggle with himself and uh and his own ideas and doubts. And this is the this is where it comes to the head for the story of the history of Joseph Smith that I don't that most people who've not been Mormon probably don't know.

[00:20:00]>> So Jo Joseph Smith when he was young about seven years old his brother Hyram went away to school or he was he it was a school right down the road. uh he was going to this school called Moors Charity School. It was uh connected to Dartmouth University and he was studying basically to go into the seminaries.

[00:20:21]What preparing to go into seminary and at that time the family's fortunes had all taken a a turn south. This is around 1812 1813 and they their dad had lost all of his money. He had he had inherited a a small sum of money. The Smiths are the same Smiths that came over on the Mayflower. So, they're like a Massachusetts-based family, but they're in Vermont at that point.

[00:20:47]Vermont, making the switch from Vermont over to New York, where Joseph Smith ultimately grows up. And right at that time, uh, his brother comes home with scarlet fever and the whole family takes sick. Every, >> by the way, I had scarlet fever. I kid you not. I kid you not.

[00:21:05]>> Yeah. I had to go into the hospital one time. I was sick. I had like a rash like I like on my skin. I was young and they did DNA tests and they checked me and they said, "You have scarlet fever."

[00:21:15]They said, "This is extremely rare these days." I guess they It's like an older thing that used to be.

[00:21:20]>> Oh, yeah.

[00:21:20]>> And uh this was when I was younger.

[00:21:22]Yeah. So that's weird.

[00:21:23]>> Oh, that is weird. You and Joseph Smith got this connection, man.

[00:21:27]>> It's polygamy, baby. It's the polygamy.

[00:21:30]Just saying.

[00:21:31]>> Okay.

[00:21:31]>> Even in a fire. If anybody if anybody's gonna get called out for the polygamy, it's the guy who's actually got polygamist in the family.

[00:21:40]Um, >> but no, he so he gets scarlet fever and he gets so bad that at one point they actually have to perform an operation, experimental operation at the time where they u where they have to break they cut open his leg and they break off some of his bone marrow. They have to drill into his leg bone and drill. And this is a well-known story that part in Mormonism because the story goes that Joseph Smith um they go to give him whiskey before they do the surgery and he refuses it.

[00:22:14]The secret that Mormonism has been keeping for a long time is Joseph Smith was a notorious drunk. He drank all the time. He drank until the day he died.

[00:22:21]The day he died they got he and the his boys got smashed on wine. Right. And uh but the the church started to position around that no we've we've never been drinkers. Totally a lie. Uh and you know getting on on towards the 20th century they started telling the story that Joseph Smith had this revelation that we weren't supposed to drink alcohol anymore. And that's why even in his youth when he had to have this surgery he would say if my father will just hold me then I can bear the pain. And this it's this virtuous story that his mother used to tell and it's such a mom story.

[00:22:58]It's like uh it's like okay I whether or not it's true when he was about when he was a child and had the surgery. The problem is that Joseph Smith's father who had this downturn in fortunes he drowned his sorrows and booze and you you find this out in the story he had a serious alcohol problem.

[00:23:16]>> And so when you think about this little boy saying no I I won't take any whiskey. Oh, my daddy just holds me.

[00:23:22]Then it's like it's like, okay, we we get that you're embarrassed about your dad's drinking, but you know, be sensitive about your father has a has a serious problem here, but he is a little boy. I mean, he acts like a little boy.

[00:23:37]>> And so, um, but it's around that time then that they have his little sister dies from the from the fever and she's just a toddler. She's she's she's brand new. She's just a baby. And um his mother is so devastated by this, so devastated by the loss of this child.

[00:23:55]And then going down the years, they lose their eldest son, Alvin. He dies. And she is so her story is so full of grief.

[00:24:05]And then at the same time, she's turning towards Methodism trying to find some comfort. and a preacher comes to her and says, "Listen, you got to sort out the baptism of your children, the children that remain, because these children that you've lost, they're they're in hell waiting for you. You for, you know, wishing that you had gotten them baptized. Now you you you should baptize the children you have left before you are separated from them forever. Which besides the fact that that is perhaps the meanest, crulest thing you could say to a grieving mother.

[00:24:41]>> Um it's very clearly one of the main criticism, skepticisms people at this time have with Christianity, both Catholic, both Catholic Christianity and the Reformation is that they they can't square this. how what happens with children when they die and you can say whatever you personally believe but then square it biblically with what's written in the gospels you know w with you know Jesus being the living water and no man cometh except by me baptism for the dead what does that actually mean why are they then baptized for the dead and Joseph Smith in the process of this you know this is all being absorbed in his brain and watching his family get torn apart Well, then his father gets caught up in it because there he is a universalist.

[00:25:33]He believe he he's kind of a deist basically. He believes in God but he doesn't he doesn't subscribe to any religious sect >> and uh at that time his his wife starts to starts to come after him about you really need to consider getting baptized and showing being the example so that your boys and your children who are still surviving will see your example and and be baptized. You need to be converted to the church. And when his father finds out about this, he's like, "Whoa, no, hold on." So, grandpa comes by and he tells them, "I look, here's what here's" He He comes by and he says, "Listen, I'm not going to tell you what to do with your life. Your faith is your faith. But before you do it, I want to give you I want to give you something that's going to be very important. And I just I'm just asking you to to accept this as a gift from a loving father who wants you to think things through first.

[00:26:34]And uh and he gives him Thomas Payne's the age of reason.

[00:26:39]>> Yeah.

[00:26:40]>> So that makes sense. Okay. I didn't know that.

[00:26:43]>> Yeah. So at the time when when Mormonism is coming about, you have uh in 1829 1830. Well, I I really it's 18 I think 1828 to 1830 when they're actively working on it. That's when they that's when Joseph Smith has access to this document and all of the doubts that that Thomas Payne who believed in God. That's before somebody calls me out on that. He did believe in he's a theist. He's a classic theist. But the age of reason is perhaps per perhaps one of the best takedowns of modern Christianity or or historical Christianity that exists at that time and maybe that exists ever. So >> yeah, we by the way we got a super chat on my end over here Joe on my channel.

[00:27:32]Bacan Pan Danny Bis uh thank you so much. He says baptism for the dead mystery school like Addis. Um I if I may comment on this because I think this is an interesting thing when you ask many Christians what Paul baptizing for the dead what what is this? They usually don't know and I think that's why you have you know the Mormonism actually comes to try and explain what this is.

[00:28:01]When you go back and you look at the primary sources you won't find this in Jewish literature. Baptism of the dead is not a Jewish thing. So I found some sources from fifth century B.CE in Greece, contemporary sources around the first century, around the time of Paul, all from pagan. I put in scare quotes meaning non-Jewish sources. And they had one from an orphic story. There's an orphic myth orpheus um/dionian stuff. There was often this kind of idea. and someone died in their sins and the loved one, the family member was was able to baptize on behalf of that member who is dead to get them to move into the Elucian fields, the the the blissful state of the afterlife. And so they were able to baptize for them so they could then go to that pleasant place. And when you hear Paul talk about baptism of the dead, you have to ask yourself, what's going on here? What is the baptism of the dead? If it's not somehow on behalf of someone who died and likely wasn't in a state of >> salvation or belief or whatever or baptist, they weren't baptized themselves. And it seems that that was there for that reason. And I'll make one more comment about the Gospel of Peter.

[00:29:28]The Gospel of Peter's one of the early depictions of this like revelation of hell, right? In it, if you knew a Christian and you went to hell, that Christian can get you a get out of hell free card. In the Gospel of Peter, Christians can get their friends that they knew in life who weren't in heaven to go to heaven from hell. So that that that text of course lost favor in terms of its can canonicity but it was very important early document that was preached in churches. People believed it all that kind of stuff. So just thought I'd mention that. One thing about this corore thing though and I don't want to throw you off uh from the path you were going with the story and the age of reason and all that. But >> I can't remember the name of the movie.

[00:30:17]It's more like a horror movie. You might know it off the top of your head because it's more in your in your area. There were two girls that show up to this house and they're trying to preach their LDS, you know, Mormonism to this guy and it's a horror movie. You know what I'm talking >> heretic. Okay. So, two things I want to do. I want to just just bring that up and show >> how what the hell because they they make this ex Mormon studied man into this evil really bad skeptic. He even like fains a he fains a uh a resurrection and it's so freaky. I mean, that movie freaking freaked me the hell out. I can't stand like I can't stand the claustrophobia kind of like experience that goes on with the the horror and the torture and the the the that was going on in the house. But then I think of 28 Years Later, the last one.

[00:31:14]>> Okay.

[00:31:14]>> Did you watch that one?

[00:31:16]I I I've not seen 28 Years Later. I have to admit I h No, I know. I have to see that.

[00:31:21]>> Okay. Okay. I'm not judging.

[00:31:23]>> A good I love me a good zombie flick, man.

[00:31:26]>> You're going to want to watch it. Um totally opposite paint paint by the author. Like they they drew a different portrait because in Heretic, the skeptic is her he's a heretic. He's bad.

[00:31:38]>> And in fact, you almost walk away feeling like the poor innocent Mormon girls who are naive. clearly naive and need to they need to mature and grow up and realize the world isn't but they were good all along and their faith is what kept them strong right like that's how I at least took it when they one escapes the other one doesn't um spoiler alert I'm already ruining the movie but then the other one the other movie which I don't want to spoil for you is to say the opposite image gets portrayed >> and it it's very very realistic and I thought this is a hell of a movie it makes you. It really makes you think.

[00:32:13]So, I don't want to say anymore until you actually watch the movie, I think.

[00:32:16]>> Okay, I'll I'll say a little bit more and I'm trying not to spoil it. Uh, well, I mean, as far as Heretic, Heretic, I have seen Heretic, >> I have to say this is one of the best movies for me. Uh, and very related to Coror in my opinion.

[00:32:32]>> So, help me if if I'm wrong in my interpretation. I'm curious to get your thoughts, but go ahead. I love it because there's so much symbolism that the filmmakers baked into heretic that is very much about the critical about the criticism not only of Mormonism but also a crit criticism of ex Mormons like like me and that is that I don't think that Hugh Grant's character is strictly evil >> in the story he represents like Corahor he represents that it is that faith cannot grow except in a in a field of doubt. That the whole concept of the virtue of faith comes from being able to look at your doubts and face them and then decide like like you're saying these these sister missionaries that they are going to believe in spite of the doubts >> but living with them. And I'm like, well, you have I have to say in that regard, it's a virtue to say, here's this guy who he's doing this basically as a service to say to kind of in a sick disgusting way to say, are you worthy?

[00:33:43]Are you worthy of of the of going to meet God in the ultimate way? And this is where I'll get this is where I'll leave without spoiling the end. If you watch the movie, you think of the last thing you see in the movie >> and then remember this. There's a moment in when they come into the house, which by the way, well, yeah, I'll talk about that in a second here. Um, when they come into the house, which they're not supposed to do unless there's a a woman present because they are sister missionaries, which is true about missionaries having been one. And um and that has to do with Ted Bundy. So, if you want to hear about that, we can talk about it. But um they come in to the house and he tells them, "I do have to warn you, your cell phones aren't going to work in here because there's metal in there's circuitry. There's metal in the ceiling and no and there's no signal."

[00:34:35]And when they decide, well, yeah, I mean, they're going to get a convert one way or another. Okay, we don't have to make a phone call.

[00:34:42]You think about now you think about all the symbolism, all of this is symbolic.

[00:34:46]the candle that smells like like a blueberry pie. Yep. That's the That's about the Book of Mormon, which is a blue covered book, you know, and it's like but it's a fake. It's it's it smells like >> smells good, but it's not. Yeah.

[00:35:00]>> But it's not the real thing. It's kind of the hook in there. But the money the money in the walls, he says there's money in the walls and there's money in the ceiling. Or no, he says there's metal in the ceiling and the ceiling's always leaking. It's always leaking.

[00:35:12]Always leaking. Always leaking. Always leaking. That is, if you ask me, the metal in the ceiling is money. And he's talking about the church. The church's lies, the church's in anacronisms, the church is constantly having to plug the holes in their doctrine keeps coming through because the church has become this monstrosity focused on money. And the Mormon church, if you don't know, is pretty much the most cashrich and assetrich organization in the world.

[00:35:43]like there there are newspaper articles about how they have an exit trajectory because of their money. They have so much money that doesn't even mean anything anymore. But basically if they need any amount of money they can just have it um as and and they can create any kind of economy for themselves that they want and that's how they become one of the most powerful organizations in the world. Yeah.

[00:36:04]>> So, while while they have to plug all these holes in their doctrine, it's kind of like we really don't though, because you could let this whole thing fall down. As long as we've got our money, who cares?

[00:36:12]>> I'll tell you the one part where he gets the girls finally into the next stage outside of the living room into the into the room with the game shows pop up and he's talking about iterations of new religions like game shows and he's and then he has a song creep comes up which is perfect. Um it he's right about the concept of of the recycling of the religions and like reusing older stuff.

[00:36:37]Um, where it really annoyed me is that if he would have just done any actual deep comparative religion stuff, instead of taking Zeitgeist and applying Zeitgeist, oh, you know, Horus, yeah, you know, uh, December 25th, the the 12 disciples, the whole nine, like identical as if Jesus is just a carbon copy of the identical other religions.

[00:36:58]Um, if he would have just been a little bit more scholarly about how that that part of the video was, it would have really just been like, "Ah, this is so good to me."

[00:37:10]Because it's just the it's the pop level >> meme version of Jesus is just a carbon copy of all the other religions instead of a much more sophisticated, nuanced understanding of how there's a recycling of these traditions. And of course, Christianity picks up on this stuff. So >> I think >> that was my only concern about it overall.

[00:37:28]>> I think it's valid and at the same time I I kind of see it that way and look at it you I look at the story of myth vision if I may. I look at my story and my deconstruction from Mormonism and that of a lot of ex Mormons and I'm sure you've seen the same with exeangelicals.

[00:37:46]You've seen seen the same is that here you and I we we have deep respect for mythology and for myth and why it's why it's valuable. But there was a time where in my snarky a angry new atheist phase where it was just like Hugh Grant in Heretic. It was burn this >> down, man. Burn it all down. This is just all fake. Fake. Fake. Fake. Fake.

[00:38:14]Poking holes at it.

[00:38:15]>> Yeah.

[00:38:15]>> He represents that angry face in a way.

[00:38:20]And and also kind of and that makes him a villain in the story. the filmmakers make him out to be a villain because all he wants to do is ruin other people's faith which is like Gdona in in the story of Cororohor he's like okay even if what you're saying is right shut up man because all these people's hope is built on it >> yeah yeah yeah >> and Corahor is like yeah okay fine but it's a lie and it's a lie that you use to exploit people >> right that's his problem is the exploiting I think overall and you might even can make the case that in the movie. That's what the point of the guy.

[00:38:54]He's not into the fact that they're at his house. They're doing missionary work. They're going out trying to make other It's funny how hypocritical that goes >> because Oh, oh, oh, oh. Come on, man.

[00:39:07]That's a lot of people's hopes, bro. Why are you calling us out? Hey, go ask an go knock on the next door. Let's get them to believe, too. Sh. Why are you talking? Shh. Shh. And go to the next store and make them like like your whole mission is to change everyone else to be like you. But we're not allowed to buck back and be critical and say, "Hey, I have hope that more people won't be duped by your or won't fall prey to the naivity that they, you know, believe what you're selling them and then their whole lives get trapped into some cultlike situation." because I could see regular Mormonism becoming a gateway to FLDS or some other form of extreme version of this cult. Even if you want to say like common everyday Mormons aren't as extreme, there are forms of Mormonism that are. And maybe it just depends on where you're at and you know how that works with mainstream Mormonism, but I've watched a few of those documentaries with FLDS members and thought, "Holy bro, this is insane. This is insane."

[00:40:08]So, >> you know, I uh we have a mission here that that serves the people from the FLDS community right now. So, I'm I've been going back and forth between the uh east coast in Virginia where I have one base out there and then here in St. George, Utah and just down the road from here in St. George, Utah is Colorado City, Short Creek, which is where the FLDS were and are. And when Warren Jeffs went to prison, this whole community, all their assets got divvied up by the state and uh you know and this was a wealthy powerful organization which actually has a lot to do with aerospace if you if you can believe it, but I don't have time to get into that yet. Uh but basically they had a lot of money and um and these women and these families that are left in Colorado City, they were left with like none of it. and the men just took off and abandoned them. And so there's this organization out there basically founded by former polygamists, women called Cherish Families. and the Church of Cororohor.

[00:41:12]We have partnered with them to raise donations of blankets, food, toys for kids. Um, and even just we we collect money uh donations through the church of Cororohor, which is an actual church registered with the state of Utah and the IRS as a church. And uh we take these donations and we give it directly to them and we take it down to to support them because at the at the end of the day, you know, I I use Corora as an example uh because we're named after him, but this is always what I felt like a a church for atheists. if we had the equivalent of a church, we would do it right. And and that's why Cororo is a good example for me is that he he calls out the church and gets his voice taken away. Elma tells him when he tells him when he's like under duress, he's like, "Wait a minute. I'm sorry. A devil deceived me. So just just like give me back the use of my voice." And Elma tells him, "No, because you would go and lead away these people again." So he casts off on God and says, "But if God decides to do it, then then let him, you know, let him do it." You know, there's a I think there's a lot of Paul in in that story, but you know, we believe that. Uh but then it says that Cororohor has to go for the rest of his his days go house to house begging for his food.

[00:42:35]It says it twice. Joseph Smith felt very important to mention and he went house to house begging for his food. And it's like this this shameful thing, right?

[00:42:45]And I'm like sitting here like, okay, so it's basically like reverse Good Samaritan is what's happening here because then he ends up not being able to rely on the Christianity of his Christian neighbors. He ends up on the highway going down the road to the Zoromites and he's found trampled to death there.

[00:43:04]>> Right. Right.

[00:43:05]>> And and this is celebrated in the Book of Mormon. the the chief judge writes to all the people from the surrounding towns and says, "Now we see what happens with people who fell for Cororohor and his lies." And then uh and even the Book of Mormon writes to us, whoever the author of Alma 30 or Elma 16, depending on which version of the Book of Mormon you're using, writes to us and says at the at the end, the last line of of of the story goes, and so we see that the devil will not support his children in the last days. And it's and it's like go a little less hard, Joseph Smith. Number one. Number two, it it is in itself, if you compare it to the Good Samaritan story, it is ironically, I don't think Joseph Smith meant this to happen, but it is ironic that he he shows that the good Samaritan Christianity that Jesus supposedly teaches in the modern Christianity is exactly the opposite.

[00:44:07]that in this material focused, you know, prosperity gospel-driven Christianity we see nowadays, you see that this is they are more interested that they are the the Levite or the priest who passes the the the the man on the street and leaves him by and lets him die.

[00:44:27]>> Yeah. And >> and it's like I don't think Joseph Smith meant for that to be the case. I think that was a an arch type that just kind of manifest in his story and like I said because I think he got hungry and it was lunchtime and he was like let's wrap this up and get out of here and so he and and it just assembled in this way that shows that this as as it derails as the story of Corore derails at the end he accidentally exposes not only everything that's wrong with Christianity he he exposes particularly the future ironically a prophetic vision of the future of what Mormonism becomes.

[00:45:06]>> And because these people have, Derek, they have enough money they could end world hunger. They could do it today.

[00:45:13]They they you you tell it to a Mormon, they will deny it. They have over 300 billion dollars in assets. They are the single entity that owns more farmland than any America in America than any other institution. and they are now buying up all the farmland they can in Australia because Austral in Australia they're bene they're actually benefiting from the Trump era tariffs because >> interesting >> these Australians their government is coming in and helping the local economy to to uh to profit from trade new trade deals in through throughout the rest of the world where trade deals are starting to collapse as these tariffs go as tariffs have come up with the US And it's like the church is like, "Yeah, I mean, a lot of people believe in the MAGA movement." I'm not trying to make a political commentary there, but the church saw this and said, "Well, we're not going to let it hurt our business, which is most of the farm business in in America, frankly, if you don't if if it's not food produced by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Saints. It's produced on land that they lease to farmers." And uh and so when they see this the the weekend that the tariffs first went into effect in 2025, it it came out the news came out that they had started purchasing that they had purchased all of this farmland in Australia. They may by now be actually be the primary um owners of farmland in Australia now. And it's like >> they are they are that focused that materialistic and they could be solving the world. They could be solving world hunger.

[00:46:55]>> They just don't want to.

[00:46:57]>> Here's the here's the issue though, right? Cuz in the New Testament, you have this like conflicting different voices. You clearly have Jesus teaching stuff like sell all that you own to the rich man and come follow me. Right?

[00:47:09]Clearly there's this idea that he really wants them to not think materialistically.

[00:47:15]Now, why critical scholars who read Jesus typically understand him within an apocalyptic framework? So, the reason it doesn't matter if you get rid of everything is that it's all going to go to in a hand basket or whatever, you know, hell in a hand basket in no time anyway. So, get rid of your attachments to this earth because I'm going to give a new heaven, a new earth, and there's going to be a renewal of things. An apocalypse is going to happen, the end is going to happen, blah blah blah. Mhm.

[00:47:39]>> When you get to the book of Acts though, Acts 5 1-11, you have this like commune that has like everything in in common. Everyone owns everything in common. And some of these people who have more money and land go and sell their land. And the people who are lead examples of this in this story like you have with Coror story, you have Ananas and Safara >> and Ananas approaches and sure enough, hey, did is this everything? And he's like, "Yeah, no." Boom. The Holy Spirit strikes them dead. Right then, he dies.

[00:48:12]Then the wife comes in and they start to ask her like, "Before you lie, you're going to lie to the Holy Spirit." Boom.

[00:48:19]Wife struck dead. They drag both their bodies out. And it's like this cruel, oh my gosh. They lie to the Holy Spirit. We don't have empathy for that. The Christians don't even give a Like in their own story, they're like, "No, drag those bodies out. Get rid of them."

[00:48:33]They lied to the Holy Spirit about money. So, so notice money again. Give the money to the group. Give the money to who's going to be handling this money if it isn't the elders, if it isn't the the the prespitators, if it isn't the leadership in the cult. And it's kind of odd when you go and read like Paul's letters, which I think Acts is building upon, even though he contradicts it so many times. That's a whole different show we don't have time to get into.

[00:48:58]Paul is concerned about getting money from all these different people in all these different locations and bringing it back for the poor in Jerusalem. In Acts, they don't even mention the episode, but in Paul's letters, it's extremely important that he gets this money. And he even goes out of his way in 1 Corinthians to talk about in 1 Corinthians 7 or 9, one of those two chapters. It's an odd number chapter where he's like going, "They can marry and they they you guys can provide them with food and you guys can provide them with money and they can marry. they're allowed to, but I I'm not allowed to.

[00:49:29]So, he's like he's he's struggling with these these people in Corinth according to this letter. And he's like, you know, I deserve money, too, but I don't want your money, he says. But then he keeps complaining about it.

[00:49:43]>> But like, but like I'm not asking for your money. But then he's like like clearly he wants them to provide for him somehow. Like they he does he does want their money somehow. So even in I know that we're dealing with a different era with way more money in the Mormon church. You can imagine that many of the politically powered Christians eventually took a lot of these stories and thought of them in ways that weren't like that. Because when you get to Athanasius and or I think it's I think origin mentions this, but for sure Athanasius and others they read Jesus when he talks about sell everything you own and come follow me the opposite.

[00:50:18]They literally say, "I know you're reading this and you think Jesus is saying this. He means the opposite." So they've reinterpreted Jesus and literally made his message the opposite of what Jesus actually taught. Just go read the fathers. Anyway, I've rambled on.

[00:50:34]>> That's no. Well, and and speaking of the petristic uh criticisms, you of that time, you know, you have Jerome, I think it is, or or the um the pseudo Clementines go hard against the Ebianites, if I'm not mistaken. The Ebianites. Ebian comes from the Hebrew word, the the Aramaic word is is Ebian, right? Which is supposedly what is used in the sermon on the mount to refer to those who are poor. The And what what are the poor? they will inherit the kingdom of God. And so, but when you talk about them, as you know, he's they're they're supposedly talking about the Ebianites are the cult of Peter, the cult of Kephus. They are the Christians, the Jewish Christians in Jerusalem >> who believe if you look into the history of them that you should go without perscript that you should be vegetarian, that you should kill no no not even animals that they they believe that Jesus taught them the last supper was a vegetarian supper. He taught them to be vegetarian and that they and that you should not keep holy days. You shouldn't keep any days. don't keep track of days, you know, and and don't co don't gather wealth at all. And like you said, because it was a scatological, it was an end times cult really. I mean, they're they're waiting for the end of the world. And uh and very plausibly as you know, how do you how do you live through 70 CE? How do you live through the Roman occupation and the sacking of the temple as a Jewish Christian and then go on with this survivor's guilt of Jesus was going to come back? You know, we were supposed to and you know and and Christianity really fractures with that.

[00:52:20]It's like was it ever about a man? Was it about a man who was supposed to come back? Was it was this resurrection supposed to be the second coming or is the second coming separate? Are we waiting on the second coming? When is it? And this boom, you got the whole there. You got Christianity, you got 2,000 years of that and and we're still doing it 2,000 years later.

[00:52:42]>> So, I find it fascin But here's the thing, though. It's like I look at it now as a as an adult who's been an atheist now. I've been an atheist for 25 years.

[00:52:51]>> Wow.

[00:52:52]>> Yeah. So, I did the angry face for like two decades, frankly, solid. Every everything that is church related is just people who own and run churches are evil. And now I I have started a church. I have a clergy that I've created. I have we have a book of scripture and at corohor.org um in which part of the scripture is this chapter from the Book of Mormon which is now in public domain. Thanks Joseph Smith about the uh the story of Cororohor. But then right after that it goes into Thomas Payne the age of reason. I call it in three parts. to call first reason, second reason, third reason and uh it's it's the you know Thomas Payne is if there is atheist scripture for me it is Thomas Payne's the age of reason and then the lectures of Robert G. In ingresol one so far one uh lecture by uh Bertrren Russell and uh and then we're we're going to be expanding with some some other writings here coming up soon too.

[00:54:01]Um but if you haven't read Robert Gingerell that's a that it's amazing the skeptics not even you know Robert Gingerol he was called the great agnostic because he claimed not to know whether or not there was a god which is ironically the story of every atheist I know these days you know we we take atheist I take atheist but if you look for find me an agn an atheist that's not an agnostic atheist it's the same thing atheist for me atheist is a label We're really just mainly skeptics about religion.

[00:54:34]>> Yeah.

[00:54:34]>> Who can look at it and say, "I get it."

[00:54:37]It's like, it's not like I don't get it.

[00:54:39]It's you you were a pastor. You were, you know, you were you you preached the gospel. It's not like you can't get it why people have get value from this in in our lives, >> right?

[00:54:50]>> We've preached it. We know it. It's that we're looking at I look at it and say as an atheist I see all the skepticism all the reason to be skeptical and say we could do better without being tied to the to the Bible.

[00:55:08]>> Right. Right. Right.

[00:55:09]>> And the irony is it's that's kind of Joseph Smith's story too because even in the Book of Mormon it says uh a Bible a in the last days they will say a Bible a Bible. We have a Bible and there can be no more Bible. Which is exactly what you would expect. A 20-year-old farm boy who's sick and tired of people telling his mom that she's not going to see her kids in heaven because they didn't have the right religion. That's exactly how that kid would would speak. And so, and I look at say, okay, well, the Book of Mormon is It's that tells a true story about why people were fed up with Christianity and why Christianity needed to become better.

[00:55:53]And in that regard, the Book of Mormon actually becomes very instructive. It's like a textbook in why we should look at this and reconsider everything that that we once believed and say, "Why did we?"

[00:56:06]Right.

[00:56:06]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. With four minutes left, I I' I'd have so many more questions. We should do this again, actually. Um I love that.

[00:56:13]>> Yeah. Cuz I want to ask you about how polygamy I know I know it pulls up into um other doctrines that he teaches, but I don't think they appear in the Book of Mormon uh which allows Mormons to dichomize, you know, and allow these other uh teachings that Joseph Smith gets revelations about and allows some of the cookie kooky stuff that goes on uh later with the wives and all that kind of stuff. Um, yeah. I think it's I think personally I just think it's interesting the way you just said that about the fact that you have to have new revelation, you have to have new scriptures to fix something that's just not working.

[00:56:53]>> It's not the old is just not working.

[00:56:55]So, either you're going to come up with new scriptures or you're going to reinterpret the old ones. But how long is that sustainable that words don't mean words? And how successful can you make that kind of interpretation for everyone who's reading a word go, "Yeah, but the word really means this." No, no, no. Read it through my interpretive lens. And it's like, we're we're moving on, right? We're we're growing up out of these things as a as a species, I think.

[00:57:22]And these are older models. We need the the new iPhone 10, the new iPhone 11, the new iPhone 12, you know, like the religion needs to upgrade, you know, >> and ironically right now that's actually happening in Mormonism. So when we get talk about this again that, you know, we can talk about Chad and Lorie Del and how they're the offshoots, if you if you follow that story, the offshoot of the Lori Del cult is alive and well and currently trying to take over Mormonism again. Again, we don't have time.

[00:57:55]>> We don't have time for that. But, uh, like you said, we only have a couple minutes left. I was hoping because that you would indulge me, Derek. I thank you again. You are my friend. I am very grateful that you that you would have us on and share this time with us. Uh, one of the things that that we're known for in the church of Cororohor, it's a spiritual community for godless people, uh, is our godless hymns, mostly because of the snarky ones. But uh in service to Cororohor, I was hoping you'd let me play for you our uh our anthem, the first of the hymns that I wrote about and that I wrote about Cororohor to share with you and all of our friends at Myth Vision.

[00:58:36]>> Let's do it.

[00:58:37]>> I want to thank my friend Derek.

[00:58:39]Everybody's Derek Lambert Myth Vision.

[00:58:41]Uh people at Hellfire Agency, if you're not following, please follow Myth Vision >> and vice versa. Vice.

[00:58:46]>> Awesome. Let's uh let's play Oorahore.

[00:58:50]Let's see here. Is this our guy? This is our guy. All right. And to all my friends over at the Church of Coralore, remember to flash bright.

[00:59:11]Oh cory you dare to speak forbidden truths that make men free by Alma's hand on holy sorcery.

[00:59:41]They restore your voice for never fight by >> from hypocrisy.

[00:59:53]>> Hypocrisy.

[00:59:56]>> Start to be free.

[00:59:57]>> Start to be free.

[01:00:01]>> He died for me.

[01:00:04]>> He died. Ignite my mind.

[01:00:09]>> My mind comes.

[01:00:16]Oh, glory to law.

[01:00:30]They bound you for thinking, but without a word they all debates for fail.

[01:00:45]Battle of W.

[01:00:50]Darl has an armed gather she with holy shite my mindocyc to be free to be Hey my heart glory. Oh glory.

[01:01:40]I'll speak for you to honor their God.

[01:01:50]They showed you no mercy, turned you away.

[01:01:59]Melon's altar defeat.

[01:02:04]Oh, wicked duress.

[01:02:09]They broke your solar mine.

[01:02:14]Crucify you with bread.

[01:02:18]to fill their heart with free.

[01:02:33]Heat. Heat.

[01:02:43]Yeah.

[01:02:55]Glory.

[01:03:00]I'll speak for you.

[01:03:06]>> Thank you so much, Derek.

[01:03:07]>> Dude, that's badass.

[01:03:09]>> Holy You know what I mean?

[01:03:12]>> Amen. Amen. Reach it.

[01:03:14]>> I I really appreciate you and again I think that's a really interesting the way you framed it uh to point out a salvation character within a book that you know may not have intended that but as you can see became something of its own and I think that's really really cool and what you're doing with Coror.

[01:03:34]So uh for those who don't know uh Joe go subscribe to his YouTube channel. Joe has got a church that is obviously just creating community in a skeptical think tank, so to speak, and also wants to do real charitable deeds, real things, and you know, I would say real good religion that's helping people who are in need, things like that that we should all want. No matter what you believe or don't believe, we should all want. But when you have, like you point out, Mammon and all the stuff in this uh there's a lot of bad that goes on in a lot of these organizations. So appreciate you having me, man.

[01:04:10]>> Thank you very much. Flash, Derek. Thank you.