Matthew Macfadyen on Death by Lightning's Twisted History, Plus Euphoria's Impeccable Performances

Added: 2026-05-05

[00:00:01]A million uh candles being lit for a dinner. That doesn't make any sense, but it looks cool.

[00:00:10]>> Hi everyone, it's the Prestige Junkie podcast. I am Katie Bridge and today it is getting dramatic and in the desert and neon colored and there's eye makeup because we are going to talk about euphoria. And to do that I am joined by Vanity Fair's Chris Murphy. Hello Chris.

[00:00:27]Thank you for coming to talk to me. Hi, Katie. Thanks for having me. And don't forget, there's a lot of drugs, too.

[00:00:32]>> So many drugs. Drugs and balloons, drugs, noses, drugs everywhere.

[00:00:36]>> What's in those shrugs? We don't know.

[00:00:39]Maybe people should know before they snort them. Uh, we're going to talk about Euphoria, which is back on HBO.

[00:00:44]It's now aired two episodes. And then a little bit about the best drama series race in general, which includes The Pit, which has just finished its season and where all the things stand in that race.

[00:00:54]And then after you hear me and Chris talk, you'll hear my conversation with Matthew McFaden about his really incredible work on a limited series that I love, Death by Lightning. Hear all of that and more soon. Welcome to the show.

[00:01:09]Hello, Chris. I'm so happy to have you back on here and I'm so glad that when I was trying to think of who I wanted to talk about Euphoria with that I I thought you were the right person, you were immediately like, "Yes, I'm the right person." Thank goodness. I am a glamorous teen who's just completely just messed up in the head. So it does >> this this is me thinking you'd be like this understands the youth right.

[00:01:29]>> Totally. I am 18 and insane. So >> oh man you Euphoria is a show. So when in the days when we worked together at Vanity Fair often I would be able to kind of offload and be like you know what that show is not for me. It's been how long since Euphoria was even on the air like I >> 5 years. Yeah.

[00:01:46]>> So in the previous Euphoria years I was a able to avoid it. Now, you know, doing the work that I'm doing now, I kind of felt like I had to dive in. So, I have watched two whole episodes of Euphoria, both from this season. But you've been there since the very beginning, it sounds like.

[00:01:59]>> Yeah, I have. Yeah, I have been since the very beginning, which was actually in 2019. So, since it first came out, it's been >> a different universe. It's crazy.

[00:02:08]>> It's hard to even conceive of what the world was when we were introduced to like, you know, the crazy teens of Euphoria. And the show was, you know, it was intense. It was it was visually pretty stunning and it literally broke open like legitimate movie stars.

[00:02:25]Enormous movie stars.

[00:02:26]>> Enormous movie stars. It reintroduced us to Zenaia who you know was a Disney Channel star and then now she's all grown up sort of as Rub Bennett. We meet Jacob Allerty. We meet Sydney Sweeney.

[00:02:36]There's uh Hunter Schaefer Hunter Schaefer Mod Appet. There are all these people who go on to sort of do really good and interesting work in other places. But the the ensemble, unlike many other shows, I can't really think of a of a show that broke open so many so much legitimate talent in that period. Like that was kind of the the vehicle to introduce us to like the next generation of actors.

[00:03:00]>> Well, especially coming at a point where I think a lot of the 2010s was like, are we past movie stars? Do we not have them anymore? And Zenaia like she's not the only one, but she's one of like four or five people who are now telling us that we still have movie stars. her and Timmy and like a couple people like you know >> and like maybe Jacob Alerty and >> and maybe Jacob Alerty. Yeah. Um it was also like the water cooler HBO Sunday show, right? It's like you would talk about it and you know, oh can you believe that this happened to Cassie?

[00:03:25]Like oh my gosh like can you believe you know Nate Jacobs like is he gay? Is he not? Ah, when you >> Oh, was he SP see having only watched this season I saw that you know his dad played by Eric Dayne who has since passed away had a whole like weird like sex addiction having gay sex thing.

[00:03:40]>> Absolutely. Yeah. It was it's sort of I mean like it's kind of complicated but >> this show being complicated.

[00:03:47]>> This show being complicated. Let's just say one Halloween I dressed up as Nate Jacobs. So like a football player and then I was his iPhone which it was like a huge thing of grinder like a lot of dickpicks and that was so I was both Nate Jacobs and his iPhone and that was really >> Was the iPhone like on your back?

[00:04:01]>> I kind of had a really big cardboard. It was a lifesiz cardboard thing that I opened up that revealed what was inside the >> We'll link to your Instagram if you put it on Instagram. The people deserve to see it. Yeah. I mean, so like Euphoria, what scared me off about Euphoria for the first two seasons was what a lot of the obvious stuff. It's like it's kids acting badly. It's drugs. It seemed like intense and sad. And I had kind of this reaction of like I can like it's none of my business. It's acclaimed. I know Zena won two Emmys for it, but none of that like subject matter appeals to me, but it always had this style like and the performances too are a big part of it, but it it everyone talked about it in this way that felt elevated. And Sam Levenson is like kind of the big aur behind the whole thing. Obviously, we want to give credit to everyone else, but how do you how do you put your finger on what that style was in sense that this is more than just like lurid looking at people doing bad things.

[00:04:51]>> Yeah. I mean, I I think it it has like a certain sheen and like visual storytelling that is really appealing and very like late millennial early gen Z. It's sort of like selenial in a way that like I would say actually probably it's more zoomerish even though he's not. You know, Sam Levenson is you know >> is Dea Zoomer? She is. I think she's right on the she's like 30. I think she's right on the cusp, right? So, I think it sort of ushered in and introduced like Zoomer aesthetics, the eye shadow, the makeup, the like, you know, the body glitter, the throwback to '90s, but make it contemporary. I think that ushered in >> the visual storytelling to a lot of people who weren't familiar with that, too. And it kind of was, I think, defining in a way. I think people saw what was happening on Euphoria and then like started to like adopt it and co-op it, you know, for themselves. So, it's sort of like a chicken or the egg thing, but it did like, of course, it's an HBO show, so it has money. It has like, you know, it has more resources than, you know, your average show, you know, other network show, but it did really like it was really beautiful and sumptuous to look at and and well done. And, you know, Sam Levenson, you can say what you want about him. He knows how to film a shot.

[00:06:01]>> He can frame a shot.

[00:06:02]>> He can frame a shot for sure. And it should be said that he's, you know, his learn, you know, his dad is Barry Lemonson. You know, it's like it runs in the family.

[00:06:09]>> Born into it.

[00:06:10]>> Born into it.

[00:06:10]>> I do think a lot, I mean, the visuals of season 3 seem to me there's a little bit of a change from it. There's a western vibe, especially in that first episode.

[00:06:17]I mean, the very opening of episode one feels like it's Breaking Bad in a really interesting way, honestly. Um, but before we get into specifics of season 3, the idol comes between Euphoria season 2 and season 3. Did you watch any of the Idol? Is there anything relevant to consider for that? I think I got through two episodes. I began it. I think like many people, I began it and I fell off. And I think the idol sort of shows his film making flaws where it might be style over substance. And I think that's the thing that with Euphoria, at least the first two seasons, you could kind of make an argument that like, okay, the style is like impeccable. It's really it looks amazing and and whatnot. And the performances are so great that like maybe there is something there and there's, you know, and whatnot. Whereas with the idol like it it did not the narratively did not hold together and I was rooting for it. I think it actually I liked the first episode more than most people and then it just completely fell off and went sort of like to his more lurid you know weird kinky sex impulses which you know by all means >> respect people and their impulses we can choose not to engage. we can choose not to engage. I'm not king shaming, but if it's not like an interesting story or there's not like any there there or like if it doesn't really make sense and if it's just you know you know again style over substance then like I think people just got disinterested and fell off and I the numbers reflect that you know it dwindled so much over the course of its run. So I think that's the first show where people were like >> I don't know if this guy has all of the juice that we thought that he might have. So the style of her substance thing when people lobby at Euphoria obviously there's these performances and these characters like I you know not having seen the show I knew who Cassie was. I knew who Lexi was. Like they live outside of it. But is there a thing that Euphoria is about that you think that is elevating it? Well, that I think in the first two seasons you could argue that it's about like youth and like you know teens like how hard it is to be a you know a teen in the in this crazy world today and like when you have all you know no supervision and you go to school but you don't bring a backpack cuz class doesn't matter and you and you're doing drugs and you're having sex and you're like all like adults as teens like sort of like an a overview or sort of an exploration of like what like you know being a youth like on the cusp of adulthood but not really being there.

[00:08:33]>> It's interesting that it had that nihilism of youth that pre-COVID because it feels like there's been so much more of that afterwards. Like I did see something coming in that way.

[00:08:40]>> Oh, it definitely it definitely did. I think the the second season like the I think one of the standout episodes is Lexi's play episode which sort of goes back in time and sort of sees them you know as children how they grew up and that their changing relationships and whatnot. I think that, you know, sort of like a beautiful sort of like very a gorgeous play within a play of of how, you know, grow what growing up means.

[00:09:03]>> Sadly, that is no longer applicable in the third season. So, it is like they've grown up. So, it's sort of like what is Euphoria about? I don't know if you can say that anymore.

[00:09:12]>> Yeah. Yeah. And even with the style, like in these first two episodes that I've seen, like there's the visuals of the house that Cassie and Nate are living in is like Brady Bunch nightmare.

[00:09:21]There's obviously something to that. I mean, the strip club itself, as much as like the vibes are terrible in there, there there's aesthetic choices, but there's nothing like what I've heard people talk about with season 2 of like musical numbers or plays within plays, like it's not taking those huge bold leaps. You've seen the third episode, which is airing this week, and I haven't yet. So, maybe that comes in there, but is is the style changing in season 3?

[00:09:40]>> The style is changing. I mean, I I still think it is like visually like really interesting and, you know, fun to look at if maybe grotesque now and it sort of is like, you know, now it's like they're all adults, but they're, you know, Cassie and they're playing a house and their house is like bizarre and grotesque '7s nightmare.

[00:09:55]>> Does it make any sense for their characters to live in that house?

[00:09:58]>> No. No, it doesn't. There's nothing sort of dramatically >> supposed to be like a Rick Caruso real estate developer guy. Like there's so many like tacky California mansions that make sense for these characters, but I'm like, and that's the thing about St. lives. I think he's just like, "Oh, this is cool." So, I'll just do that. A lot of it is just like, "Well, this is cool."

[00:10:14]>> The yellow kitchen looks cool. Like, I won't take it away, but it's odd.

[00:10:18]>> A million uh candles being lit for a dinner. That doesn't make any sense, but it looks cool. So, like, >> who lit those? Do you think they lit the candles? Their housekeeper?

[00:10:26]>> Cassie lit I guess the housekeeper. And I'm wondering if the housekeepers end up having watched the third episode of that narrative comes in more in terms of like class. I I can't say I don't know if it does beyond that, but I do think that's, you know, he's playing with that a little bit.

[00:10:40]>> Is Euphoria a show that deals with class? Cuz it's interesting that like Nate and Cassie are in the super rich world and Rue is struggling. She's doing all this stuff because she's in debt.

[00:10:48]She's really like I couldn't tell if she came from money and then jumped into this or it's always been there. Has that been part of what Euphoria is?

[00:10:54]>> It has been a little bit of part of what Euphoria is. R definitely doesn't come She's definitely, you know, middle to lower middle class. Like she's doesn't come from money. like Alexa Demiy's character, Maddie, definitely, you know, scrappy sty. We see her. She's like, she's a hustler. She's getting work done.

[00:11:08]>> That scene where she like pitches herself to be the what is a manager's assistant like like that's an incredible scene.

[00:11:13]>> Oh, it's great. And I've missed her.

[00:11:14]She's so good. She's so good on the show, too. She's she's great. So, it's been an element of the show for sure in terms of, you know, privilege and class and a little bit, but it's definitely not like the thrust of the show. And I wouldn't say from we get a little bit more of it I think in this season now we you know Jules is after we see that she's you know living the high life in some ways of luxury luxury weirdly empty penthouse. So at the end of episode 2 uh R goes to visit Jules Jules is in New York right >> I think she's still in LA but I think she's in LA but in like a fancy penthouse.

[00:11:48]>> Apartment is very like New York coded right.

[00:11:50]>> It is New York coded so it is bizarre behind it.

[00:11:52]>> Yeah but she's definitely in LA >> but like she doesn't have a chair so we have to sit on the floor. sitting on the floor. Again, it's like I fine. Sure. I don't need everything to make sense, but I need some things to make a little bit of sense.

[00:12:03]>> But, um, but yeah, I I think it's like it's a through line and I'm seeing it more of the season with, you know, the the maids and the the hired help and how these characters are treating them, but, you know, it's not been like the main thrust of the show by any means.

[00:12:16]>> Well, and it feels like it's coming in with R working at the strip club cuz she's, you know, with these girls who are working there. Like, clearly none of them are working there because it's like their dream. Although Ruth says it is her dream job. I don't know if that's cuz she just wants to like grow up women like like I don't think her dreams go that far.

[00:12:29]She's she's been through a she's been through a lot. So >> yeah, she's So she she gets out of her horrible debt to the um the drug dealer, >> Martha. Martha Kelly play Lori her the drug dealer Lori.

[00:12:41]>> She's incredible. Like what I hope she comes back even though she's Don't spoil it.

[00:12:46]>> I won't spoil it, but I interviewed her and she's great. She's amazing.

[00:12:49]>> She's the best. that like like the when it starts getting to the stroke club scenes and then Alamo's mansion which we see at the end of episode one like the William Tell thing and like all these women and their bodies being augled and disrespected and not like it feels like such a like a weird like I'm ant it's anti-feminist to have these women in here. I don't want to make it that blunt but I I felt kind of queasy in those scenes in a way that made it feel like it's hard for me to go forward with Euphoria. Is there something I'm missing about what it's trying to do here? I like it. I would love I'm trying to find an argument to be like no, but I'm also like I can't.

[00:13:23]>> Did it play better for you cuz you knew what to expect cuz you see more of Euphoria.

[00:13:26]>> Yeah, I having seen more. It's like I know that the show is boundary pushing and provocative and like intentionally so and it wants to make you feel uncomfortable at certain points and it wants to like and it has always been hypersexual in in different ways but I mean and we see it with Cassie's character too. I think that's probably her like Tik Tok only fans is probably the most that's where I was like the most like whoa like I you know >> the dog stuff >> the dog the baby >> it was the baby there's the baby that I was like oh god >> I guess I mean that that's her getting advice from um Alexa Demy's character Matt like like I guess she's right that there's a market for it so you may as well fill it >> and like sex does sell and like there have been a proliferation of like Only Fans models and accounts and people making hundreds of thousands of dollars so it's like it's not like it's based in reality and it's like not like he's not wrong but it's like I think it's a little bit to what end it's like okay we get it what else what else >> and I don't know if there's and maybe you know in episode 7 it'll all come together and it'll be like of course this is what I was trying to say but also because it's become such a hallmark of his film making from you know the idol to euphor it's like that's sort of like it seems like that might be like his one trick you know >> re awfulness of what these how people s each other >> and maybe enjoying it too and maybe just being like this is sexy so let's do it like >> well the fact that this season exists at all feels nuts like I don't know how they got everyone's schedules like Zena is in four movies this year she's I mean the drama is a huge hit like she has other things going on all of them do so like as a someone who's been on this journey this whole time like how what needs to happen for you to feel like that season 3 was worth it or that like euphoria has ended in a way that feels satisfying >> well I think it's For those who have been on the journey, who've been paying attention, it's like I don't think we're getting a season 4. Like I think everyone >> can How much do you think Zenaia could charge that they really wanted a season?

[00:15:20]>> Lit who I can't even an astronomical >> every mansion that Nate is building on that bluff. Za gets them all.

[00:15:27]>> She gets them all per episode. Each episode she gets one for each episode.

[00:15:30]But I think it's I think it would be nice because it's going to sound a little hokey, but I think people care about Ru. They want to see >> they want to see her be okay and you know if not like you know upwardly mobile or like on her feet but just like stable you know in a in a just a good situation just because you know >> no longer like in debt to somebody who doesn't respect her >> debt no longer addicted to drugs no longer homeless or out on the street all this stuff. So, I do think that like I for the show to end in a way that feels like cohesive or just or a little just like fitting. It would be nice to see her to see her, you know, on her feet.

[00:16:10]And I, it should be said too, it's like the show has like dealt with loss like you know, Angus Cloud who played Fez.

[00:16:15]He, you know, he overdosed and died and and in the show he's still alive, you know, which is a really I thought that was a really lovely >> Yeah, I guess that you think that's where they're going to leave it. Do you think they're going to try to like give us another story beat for him or anything? I think they're going to leave it there. I think it's just, you know, he gets sent to prison and then at least he's still, you know, with that, you know, his he's still alive and still lives on um with in a way that I think is, you know, ultimately it it did touch my heart.

[00:16:40]>> Yeah, it's a lovely thing to be able to do. Is there any other character who you care about wanting to see good things happen for them? Cuz like the vibe you get seeing I guess Nate and Cassie especially because there's so much in these first two episodes is like these guys can get sent to the pits of hell for all. Like whatever cares I wonder if if viewers if there's anyone else who you're rooting for that even if it's not as much as for >> I'm I would say Maddie and Maddie is I love her. She just isn't, you know, she's a boss [ __ ] who just like gets what she wants and she knows who she is and she like is unapologetic and just absolutely I just love that character and I think it's it's so singular and it's interesting because Alexa Demi is she's so good on the show but she hasn't sort of had the same sort of like post euphoria success as the other.

[00:17:24]>> Why isn't she as big a star as Sydney Sweeney and Jacob Lordi? I don't know because I think her I think she's more of an acquired taste one which is part of why her and Maddie she sticks out so much and she's like she's like memeable and like she's like she is sort of like you know breakout character. So in some ways I think maybe she suffers from being like so so singular and specific that like it's like what her character.

[00:17:47]>> Yeah. So linked to her character that it's like oh well what else can she do?

[00:17:50]Um but it is and also I think she was a little bit older. She's, you know, I think, you know, ethnicity and race plays into it, too. You know, Jacob Lord and Sydney Sweeney just get to do whatever they want. Um, so I'm really rooting for and really rooting for I love that character. I love Maddie.

[00:18:06]>> Yeah, I was going to say like, you know, race plays into it compared to Jaci and Sydney Sweeney. It also feels like Zenaia is kind of like on a stardom gravitational pull other than anybody else. Like no one can be as big a star as Zenaia. So like and I and I felt that watching this show like I knew she was a great actress. I loved her in the Dune movies and Challengers obviously, but like I was so struck by what she can do as that character and within this show that feels like it's kind of determined to go spin crazy off X-axis and she just brings it back over and over again.

[00:18:35]>> Oh yeah. I mean, I think it should be said too, it's like we say like Zena's like I mean she's fantastic on the show.

[00:18:40]She won two Emmys and whatnot. Um and like she's a movie star. She's a movie star, but this was the property in the show that sort of cemented her as like >> her generations it hit girl.

[00:18:50]100% euphoria and you can't and I think she knows that she's inextricably linked to this property and she's so yeah she like breaks your heart but is also funny but is also awkward and weird and kind of an every man but also like devastating. It's just it's a really it's a great television performance. Um and even in season 3 which feels way less focused and sort of like what is what is going on? Um, she's still I still think she's delivering, you know, doing great work. And >> were you of the generation to have known her as a Disney person or was that after your time?

[00:19:25]>> She was a little bit after my time. Like I definitely knew the name, but I didn't watch like Shake It Up or Casey and the Undercover, whatever it was called.

[00:19:32]>> I know. I know. No, I literally don't know what Shake It Up is about. Like I I know that she was on it. I I mean, it's like I'm looking at her like film credits, you know? So, so the first Spider-Man comes out in 2017 as is The Greatest Showman, which I do always forget that she's in. Um maybe the only movie that you could forget Zenaia is in because she's you know so gigantic at this point >> and there's a lot going on in that movie.

[00:19:53]>> Yeah. Really is. But I mean she could have been. So I was just talking about Devil Worst Proud on a different recording and thinking about how Anne Hathaway has that movie comes out and it just escalates her immediately out of it and Euphoria really, you know, June has been part of it, but Euphoria just so has been that for Zenaia. Like she is now on this echelon. And again with the drama coming out like I feel like she has proven herself as herself a star who can open a movie, not just being in a Juno or being in a Spider-Man movie. So even like kind of no matter what happens with Euphoria, it feels like Cynthia is pretty untouchable right now.

[00:20:23]>> Yeah. I mean, and she's making really interesting choices, too. Like, she's got the in like she's like four quadrant. Like, she's got the big blockbuster with Dune, but she's also did, you know, like sort of like steamy like steamy romcom comedy, not romcom, the challengers, romers, but then you have like sort of like comedy, like dark pitch black comedy with the drama. like she's kind of showing that she can sort of slot in to any kind of of of film and the films that she's picking are generally like quite quite good. Yeah. Like >> it's it's crazy that she's in three blockbusters in a single year and like none of them are likely to be bad. You know, like the Spider-Man movie like will probably be what it is, but like the Odyssey and Dune are just like the two blockbusters of the entire year.

[00:21:08]It's really it's not easy to to pull that off. Otherwise, Robert Patson literally is doing the same two blockbusters. So, good for him.

[00:21:16]>> He's good couple good.

[00:21:18]>> Yeah. So, to like to take it to the Emmys to just talk about I mean, let's talk about the drama actress race actually because Zenaia has won twice for Euphoria and looking at kind of who's who she's in the running against like she may very well win a third time kind of no matter how Euphoria is received.

[00:21:34]>> Um, a lot of her competition like I still haven't caught up on Plurbus but I know like Ray Seahorn >> Ray Seahhorn's great. I do. I do love.

[00:21:40]>> So, she she won, I guess, a Golden Globe and Carrie Russell won a critic's choice award or no, Carrie Russell won a SAG award for the Diplomat over the winter.

[00:21:49]You know, those like winter TV awards.

[00:21:51]>> Um, so they presumably have this kind of edge there. Um, you got Kathy Bates back in the mix for Matlock. We love Matlock.

[00:21:58]>> Um, The Morning Show is a drama, so Jennifer Anderson is in there. Chase Infinity, speaking of, you know, breakout young stars, uh, is in there for the Testaments. Um, but I mean looking at that, like if Zenaia has the kind of year that we feel like she's going to have, you know, the Odyssey and Spider-Man will be out by the time the Emmys happen, like why wouldn't she win again for this?

[00:22:17]>> Yeah. And it is kind of a I mean, it's she's been gone for four years, you know, her last win was in 2022. So, you know, it's not like she's a Jean Smarting like she's been here every year after year after year. So, it's a little bit of like a return. I think people do >> in that time period. she has like proven herself in other ways and has sort of leveled up. So I could definitely see being like welcome back like here you know and also if this is the last season and if the season lands on its feet which I think I don't know how well it's it's playing with you know mass audiences now but if if >> people are watching it at least it's it's popular even if it's not like >> acclaimed yeah but if it does land on its feet and people you know feel I think some sense of satisfaction or like closure at the end of the season I could definitely see her her taking it and her taking Yeah.

[00:23:09]>> Is there anyone else from the cast who you would like be rooting to get in there? I mean, Jacob Alerty could follow up an Oscar nomination. Has he been Who else has been nominated for you for you before?

[00:23:19]>> Oscar nominee Jacob Lord.

[00:23:21]>> I know. I mean, look, he was great in Frankenstein. I got I held nothing against that.

[00:23:24]>> He was great in Frankenstein, which was definitely a movie that I >> that you have seen >> that I have seen and even watched. That's all I can say about that. Um, oh well. Well, it's interesting because actually Storm Reed, who plays Cynthia's sister, won an Emmy, and I think for um in the guest category, I I I could be wrong about that, but she definitely won an Emmy and now her character's not in it anymore.

[00:23:48]>> What happened to her character?

[00:23:49]>> Like both Ru's mom and sister. I do not think that they are in season 3. So, it's like, so they're have And Coleman Domingo, famous one.

[00:23:58]>> I mean, Coleman Domingo there, that was episode one or two where they have kind of a diner scene. um which I guess is like a recurring thing that those characters do. They like meet in that diner. Um he's so great in that like it's not a surprise to see that Coleman Domingo can be great in something, but I even with the great work he's done, I don't know if I've seen him like pop in a single scene that effectively.

[00:24:18]>> He's Yeah, he's great. And it must be said Sam Levenson kind of like introduced the world to Coleman Domingo in a way. He had been working working working working in theater and you know the walking dead and whatnot but like he completely leveled up his career after being in Euphoria and yeah I think they're like you know father daughter chemistry I know they're not in the show but you know they're that like paternal relationship that relationship they have that relationship it is really even when they're you know having kind of a spicy provocative you conversation about the Bible and like being gay and like what you know being like what is you know you couldn't be gay because you had to go to war whatever it's like kind stupid, but it's like they're >> and it doesn't feel as like harsh and like gross as so much of the rest of it.

[00:25:01]Like it can they can be provocative, but there's like that there's a an affection to it that I think makes it feel human.

[00:25:06]>> There's an affection and a warmth there and it seems like a and it could just be acting. It could all be fake, but it feels like there's a genuine like, you know, kinship and camaraderie that's nice and a place that like in a show where we get very little of that. I mean in terms of like >> warmth inter rel warmth interpersonally or like between relationships or you know family warmth and love it's like we don't see that at all.

[00:25:28]>> Yeah. You have to assume that like so Zena and Coleman Domingo they're not competing with each other. They're of different generations but they both had this like breakout from this show. You just have to assume they like they look at each other and like like recognizes like they understand they're on the same page.

[00:25:40]>> I think they Yeah, I think they do. from having interviewing I've interviewed Coleman before and uh now a couple other people from Euphoria. Everyone just says the best things about her and that she's lovely and I've interviewed Zenaia before actually for the fair and and she was lovely. She was lovely to she was lovely there and um and all of her co-stars that I've talked to have just said she's wonderful to work with. So, I'm not surprised. But >> something to be said for the child star who makes it in the way like she seems to have taken the incredible rigors and like really hard things about being a child star and like turn it into a proper work ethic that just is about like >> working well with people and not killing yourself and not thinking you're the star of the show. And it's it's weirdly hard for a lot of other people to do.

[00:26:20]>> It is weirdly hard. Yeah. And I would also say just like and making interesting choices like making interesting >> good movies and >> you know and playing roles that I'm like I don't know like is this I don't know but then me being like well okay she did she pulled it off so I yeah she's got good taste that one. Yeah, it's funny how even though she has two Emmys already, I'm kind of now rooting for her to win the drama.

[00:26:44]>> The drama just Emmy. Um, well, so you know, in a minute I'll be talking to Patrick Ball about the pit. Um, just before you go, are there like what other drama series are you watching? Are you interested in what anything in in the Emmy race that you were intrigued by?

[00:26:57]>> Oh, uh, well, you said drama, but I was like, you know, I'm a big not to be so HBO all the time, but I I really like DTF St. Louis. I think that's I think that's >> Is that limited?

[00:27:07]>> I think it's limited. I think it's limited. So that's probably the closest.

[00:27:12]It's funny cuz now everything what is genre anymore? But um it is worth and I I I watched Plurabus. I watched it with my grandma and we had a great time over Christmas. Um and you know the aliens and talking about collectivism and you know community and individualism. It was it was great. And I think Ry like I think it's a little Vince Gilligan slow.

[00:27:32]It's a little bit of like okay let's let's we could push this along. But I do think Ryorn is great too. So I think in terms of like dramas it those two even though one is a limited series um uh come to mind but it is kind of a light year it feels like >> yeah I mean it does feel like the pit is going to kind of run the table and drama again which is interesting. I am just now wrapping up the new season of Paradise which I got behind on and man do I love Paradise. That show all over the place. Uh it's got like a I haven't gotten to the end of the last episode but like it's getting in sci-fi directions. Uh, so if you're not caught up on Paradise, highly recommend it.

[00:28:09]>> I am not. I watched like a couple episodes and was like, I think I get it and I'm happy for them. But but I I need a new show now. So >> yeah. Well, um, yeah, now that the pit's over, everyone's got to move on to other things. Um, well, Chris, thank you for helping explain Euphoria to me. I feel like I like I may never go back and watch the first two seasons, even though I think those are going to be the ones people like the most.

[00:28:29]>> Yeah.

[00:28:29]>> But if I were to do it, it would be to watch more of Zenaia just cuz now that like I see what she's capable of in this role. So, it's it's good to at least know firsthand who Rue is and how this works.

[00:28:39]>> Yeah. I'd say if you have, you know, a spare 8 hours or so >> to just feel bad.

[00:28:43]>> I feel bad if you don't worry about those kids. I got to do it before I have teenage children, right? Like otherwise, I'll get way too now. You got a couple years. Do it now.

[00:28:52]>> Well, Chris, thank you for coming to talk to me. And for those of you listening, uh, stay tuned. I'll be back in a moment talking to Matthew McFaden.

[00:29:01]Now, let's hear my conversation with Matthew McFaden, who of course you remember as Tom Wscans on Succession, a character he played for several seasons.

[00:29:11]He won two Emmys and was a Midwesterner striving to make his way into American society, which is not so different from the character he plays on Death by Lightning, Charles Gau. Death by Lightning, however, is a very different kind of show. It is based on the true story, the assassination of President James Garfield. He's played by Michael Shannon. really wonderfully on the show and Matthew McFadian plays his assassin Charles Gau who again has some things in common with Tom Wanss but Matthew and I talked about the differences of digging into this guy whose grip on reality was a little tenuous and Matthew and I really got to dig into this life that he loves as an actor bouncing from project to project as he says that doesn't mean he has a lot of control over things sometimes but he really dug in for me on the process of doing these things of building a career of making a show together with the great cast on something like Death by Lightning with Michael Shannon, Shay Wigum, Nick Offererman, all of them giving really big comic performances sometimes with this real air of tragedy behind it.

[00:30:12]Again, not so different from Succession after all. Matthew was really interesting to talk about how he's built his career alongside his wife, Key Haw.

[00:30:20]Both of them are actors, as he says, they've managed not to screw up their children. So, I'd say that's one measure of success in addition to the many others that he's found. and he was just really lovely to talk to about all of it. Hear all of that and more in my conversation with the star of the limited series Death by Lightning, Matthew McBen.

[00:30:40]If you don't mind me rewinding with sort kind of the obvious how this came to you question, but specifically thinking about being on a TV show for a long time and then getting to the end of it and saying, "Okay, what's next? What can I do now that I couldn't do before? What do I want to do now?" Does Death by Lightning come to you in that moment post succession of thinking about that or is the timeline different than what I'm imagining?

[00:31:00]>> No, that's pretty that sounds kind of how it happened. Um, and you're right, it it's always strange doing a long I mean doing doing a TV show where you >> where it's sort of ongoing.

[00:31:10]>> Um, depending on whether you're enjoying it, but if you are enjoying it, then it's sort of lovely because you've got, you know, you've sort of got the 6 months a year blocked out, >> you know, for a few years at least you hope.

[00:31:20]>> Yeah. And so you can do a play or you can do a film. You can't do another returning series or you know and then if the show is a big splash which succession was then you sort of have a weird there's a there's an actor's worry. You think god I how do I what do I do now you know nothing will be nothing will be as good and I feel slightly strange cuz I'm used to playing this character and you know there's all different but that's the condition of being an actor and it's always like that.

[00:31:47]>> Yeah. And then you go, "Oh yeah, I remember this feeling." And then you're on to the next and you know, you worry if that's going to be any good. And you know, so Death by Lightning came and it was a really it was so different and fresh and interesting and it was close to home and it was a it was a wonderful cast and I really I thought the writing was great and it was contained, you know.

[00:32:08]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:32:08]>> There was a beginning and an end and that's a different feel as well after you've been doing long form TV and so yeah, it was great and I could grow a beard and >> Yeah. I saw you bragging to Seth Myers that it was your beard, which is I didn't know that that was a point of pride for actors, but it makes perfect sense.

[00:32:23]>> Oh, yeah. It's 80% mine, I'd say.

[00:32:27]>> How does it work in your real life when you're growing a beard like that? Is it just Are you horrible to look at for a couple weeks before it grows in?

[00:32:32]>> I liked I really like my beard. It's quite nice. It's like having It's like wearing a hat.

[00:32:36]>> Yeah, it's like just changes your face and then you shave and it's you shave and it's terrifying because you look your your face looks sort of like an egg. You just back off.

[00:32:45]>> Your upper lip looks really insubstantial and upsets your offspring.

[00:32:49]>> Nothing to cover up at all.

[00:32:51]>> No, >> I mean part of what dragged me to Death by Lightning right from the very beginning is the writing feels so exceptional. And again, being on Succession for so long, you know, writing just a whole >> it's on a whole other level. But I'm curious about if being on that show kind of taught you as an actor about how to look at scripts and what to look for in them. It's a skill you obviously have to have and as an actor beforehand, but I wonder how post succession how your brain picks up a script and finds what's going to be in there for you.

[00:33:16]>> The writing in succession was >> just wonderful. But it's it's always been like that as an actor if if you're lucky enough to pick and choose a little bit. Then you just go for the thing that viscerally turns you on. You know, that's the and and that's the that's always the script and the writing and the story.

[00:33:33]um you know and the character might be amazing and the and the predicament and the plot be fantastic but if the writing's no good you you think well I don't want to I don't know how to do this I don't know how to >> so yeah it's always that I find if you know if I'm reading a script and I'm sort of start saying it out loud and I can't wait to keep reading that's the that's the acid test.

[00:33:52]>> Oh so do you get the script and start just like say the lines out loud just to kind of see how it feels even as you're reading it for the first time. Well, it's you you can't help it. That's a >> Yeah, when I don't, then that's a good that's a sign that perhaps it's not biting as it ought to, you know. But when I >> But when you start reading, you think, "Oh, God, this you and you sort of instinctively know how you would say something or you how this person operates or >> and I loved that with with Gau, you know. I thought I found him so sort of awful and sweet and sympathetic and painful to re to read, you know. Was there anything do you remember when you were reading that script what you saw from him from Gau that made you think like oh I get this guy I understand who this is? Yeah, he's just endlessly trying to be helpful and he wants to be he's always he's always active and he's always paying attention I suppose even if it's in his imagination and he's on his own he's always sort of thinking about what he can do to move on >> he's not a sort of passive you know even when they're even when it's sort of nefarious or you know he's he's grifting and he's the decent part of him is re wanted really to be helpful and to be part of the gang and be part of the group.

[00:35:03]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:35:04]>> And make things better. And >> but it was sort of less about making things better than more about being part of a part of a a movement.

[00:35:11]>> Yeah. Just if if anyone had included him earlier, then none of this would have happened.

[00:35:16]>> No. Exactly. If they had, you know, and then you you see the sort of terrible snobbish treatment of him by, you know, rightly because he's not, you know, he's not he's he's slightly worrying in his enthusiasms and everything. But I think he means well and he probably and a lot of what he says is fairly reasonable and >> you know but he's dismissed by Blaine and all those people >> or even the the United sex cult like you really got to have people with a good vibe to make a place like that work and it just >> it's not going to do it.

[00:35:47]>> No.

[00:35:47]>> Did you like that was completely new to me. I mean obviously there's so much American history in this. The whole premise of it is that a lot of the stuff has been completely forgotten and I don't know how inclined you are for a historical deep dive. You know, some actors are like, "Oh, I get to take myself to college and learn about all this stuff." How much of that was part of this for you?

[00:36:03]>> That's the lovely thing about being an actor. You can do as much or as little as you wish. Um, >> and I didn't know I read um Candi Smillard's book, which was brilliant.

[00:36:14]And I didn't know anything about Garfield or Ghau. Um, so that was a real treat.

[00:36:20]>> But ultimately, you can't I mean, research is interesting because you can It's great if it sort of allows your imagination to flow. Yeah.

[00:36:28]>> Uh, and unlocks some ideas and feelings and thoughts and ideas for scenes, but you can't play the research, you know?

[00:36:35]It's only it's I always think it's like a pick and mix, you know? You take what you need and >> Well, and I assume in this case, you're not worried about like capturing the real person. Like nobody knows who this guy is really. Like you can invent him in a lot of ways, right?

[00:36:47]>> Sure. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. You can be a little Yeah.

[00:36:51]>> When I was getting to the end, I was, you know, watching the last episode where, you know, he is executed. I think it's okay to spoil that at this point.

[00:36:57]Um, and it just made me worry about his sanity level, like whether or not we what we thought his grip grip on reality was either at that point at any point of it. Do you spend do you spend time thinking about that? Like is how insane is he here? When did he get less insane?

[00:37:10]Like where you know where is he on that continuum? I think he was I don't I don't I think he was not well psychologically >> and I think he would be you know nowadays he would he would be diagnosed and looked after and but he wasn't I think he was sort of delusional and narcissistic and I'm not sure what you categorize him as but he yeah he wasn't stable at all and I think and Matt Ross and I our lovely director would chart it day by day and work out, >> you know, when to dial it up and down and maybe do slightly different versions of takes on the same day that were >> perhaps a little more extreme or a little calmer. And, you know, um, and also and it and also how how sort of irritating to be because he was really annoying and and sort of rude and odd.

[00:38:07]And you know, there were moments when he was on the train with people and, you know, he would sort of shout at people and spit his food out and all that stuff. And we sort of dialed that up and down in different takes. And >> yeah, >> I think he ended in the in the final thing, he was he emerged as slightly slightly more civilized than >> than what you thought you were doing.

[00:38:30]>> Some of some of the iterations that we went with, but that's okay. You only you find that in the edit. So >> Well, yeah. And it's and it's not your job as an actor to make someone sympathetic, you know, that comes together in the edit and from the director and the writing. But I am curious about how you think about that like even if it's just like how will people understand what he's thinking here or will they understand or or how much you think about >> I guess the audience when you're playing with it in that way.

[00:38:52]>> I don't really I I mean it has to make sense to me and I have to believe it and it has to be sort of >> Yeah. I as long as I understand it in the moment then that's it. That's as far as my job go, you know. I think then you have to you I have to sort of trust divevest responsibility and trust the director and the writers and that it all sort of fits in. But acting is very simple in the s and it's probably what makes it difficult sometimes. But it's it's literally it's moment by moment um you can't play a character arc or you can't play you know >> ideas or and you you can't or you shouldn't play sort of states of >> anger or sorrow or you know because that's not real. you're playing little little beats. Um, and people change all the time and people are people are trying to change other people and are affected by things that are happening and are and are trying to fix their really trying to fix their predicament.

[00:39:52]>> Yeah.

[00:39:53]>> And someone like Ghto, it's great because he's continually trying to change his situation.

[00:39:59]He's trying to make it better and he's trying to invagle himself into, you know, the Republican party and trying to so he's always active and always trying to do something and, you know, >> is that is that idea that you can't play an arc or a state of being is that like a basic drama school thing that everyone learns from the very beginning or is that something you learn over time?

[00:40:19]>> It's kind of a bit that's what we're taught. It's what you're taught as an actor because it's impossible and you and you and you get unstuck very quickly as an actor and you get scared >> because it's because you think well I >> I'm playing Hamlet so I've got to play the end at the beginning and you can't you can't.

[00:40:35]>> Mhm. And it's a great relief to sort of let that go uh and just play scene by scene and you know action by action I suppose you know you can't any more than a I don't know a politician can implement a vision you know it's nonsense and it's what the public can what the media >> clamor for >> and and it's who people vote for when when you know it's a populist politician will say I understand you I can do this this is what we're going to do and they have the but you can't it doesn't work it's impossible to it's just it doesn't make any sense you can do lots of things as well as you can you know >> yeah I mean living minute by minute in real time the way that reality happens I guess >> I think so yeah >> what it happens with TV shows too especially for something that's on a long time it's like well you didn't know how it was going to end from the very beginning and like ideally you don't you know and >> no and and succession we certainly don't know I mean >> which is wonderful because you're because nor the characters Yeah. Well, I'm curious about like that that learning curve of being on that and you've been on other TV shows. I don't know if anything is quite as long as Succession of saying like I got this time and kind of learning not knowing how it's going to end as opposed to if you're in Hamlet or on Death by Lightning where there is actually is an ending in the script that you're giving.

[00:41:51]>> Yeah. Like it does that require adjusting from you?

[00:41:53]>> It's really satisfying. I did a show called Ripper Street which is a sort of Victorian cop show >> and and similarly it was it was just a it's just a wonderful journey to be on especially if you feel happy in what you're doing and you like like the writers and you trust that and you like the people you're working with. There's nothing better because it's you you know you get the scripts for the next year and you're like what that's what that's where they go you know they do this or and people change and >> so it's lovely. It's lovely.

[00:42:22]>> Yeah. You get to be surprised along with the audience in some way. Well, to back to Death by Lightning, you're talking about, you know, figuring out where Gau's journey is as a given point. And you talk to actors often, you get, you know, your scene partner. You're bouncing off of them. You're going in the same direction, but Gau almost never is. Like he's constantly sharing a scene with Shay Wigum or someone and like they're two totally separate conversations. And I'm curious what that dynamic is like.

[00:42:44]>> Nick Offerman's character.

[00:42:46]>> Yeah. I mean, God, they're just like separate realities. And I'm >> totally and for Gau, it's going really well. It's always like that went well.

[00:42:54]That went really well. He's like, we're like this.

[00:42:58]>> Exactly.

[00:42:59]>> So, is that a different dynamic with your fellow actors where you're sharing a scene together and you're doing the right thing, but you're clashing?

[00:43:04]>> It's delicious.

[00:43:06]>> Yeah. especially when you're working with people like Shay and Betty and um Nick, you know, and Bradley Whitford, you know, there was some I had some lovely stuff with and you'd see the sort of you'd see the penny slowly dropping with Bradley's character thinking, right, I am I'm talking to a [ __ ] >> No one is better than him at just this like quiet outrage and frustration, which is so much of the beauty of the show, I think. It's >> so good. It's so good.

[00:43:34]>> Yeah. Um and I love the story line with you know largely I mean pretty much wholly invented I think by Mike our writer with um Nick's character and Mochester Arthur and I'm not sure they ever met but it's a wonderful >> it's a wonderful confection I think.

[00:43:53]Yeah, I mean that so many of these characters feel so alive because there's this there's a modern feeling to it without feeling anacronistic, which is such an interesting trick for a historical thing, right? That these people can feel real but not like they're stepping out of time. And I don't know if that's you guys talking about like, you know, modern day parallels to people being obsessed with fame and glory. It's so incredibly relevant now, but I don't know if that's relevant to your work and trying to make these people feel like they exist now and are totally relatable.

[00:44:18]>> It just felt it didn't feel like a per it didn't feel like a period piece at all. And and and actually human behavior I mean I I'm human behavior hasn't really changed the nuts and bolts of what we do and what we want.

[00:44:33]>> Yeah.

[00:44:34]>> You know conventions change and clothes and all the rest of it and manners to a degree and but actually the the driving forces are the same, aren't they? M >> um and so yeah, it was remarkable how I mean my god halfway through the shoot there was the attempted assassination >> on >> um Donald Trump and >> you guys were on set when that happened.

[00:45:00]>> Yeah, I woke I remember waking up. Yeah, we were on that was right bang in the middle of shooting and we shot in Budapest. Um, and our phones went, you know, when we had a group chat and it was it was life imitating art, you know, very >> very strange for like they're not gonna let us make the show. It's just gonna be too too soon.

[00:45:20]>> Yeah.

[00:45:21]>> It's too Yeah. too too irrelevant to the to the current day. I mean, I obviously the politics part of it has not changed at all, but I I thought so much about like fame in general and acting and kind of a business and and the striving that kind of surrounds anyone really trying to make a career in the business at all.

[00:45:36]And I don't I wonder if those parallels felt relevant to you. Anyone who's been like a working and struggling actor >> I think could also relate to Gau in that way and just like having things so just outside of your reach and >> absolutely. Yeah. Pick me. Pick me.

[00:45:49]>> Yeah.

[00:45:50]>> It's I mean it's that's what it is. I'll do it. I'll do it. I'll play. Yeah.

[00:45:53]Okay. I'll shoot. Yeah.

[00:45:56]>> Yeah.

[00:45:57]>> It's that's what it is. So that that made sense to me. It was like you know.

[00:46:01]Do you feel like that ever leaves you like even after you've had success that that pick me part of you is always still there somewhere?

[00:46:07]>> I think so.

[00:46:08]>> Yeah.

[00:46:08]>> I don't and you know unless you become I don't know like a mogul or you make your own film which I don't know that I like I like being a gun for hire. M >> I like being an actor because I like that that's the condition. You're like you bouncing from job to job. You're out you're out of control. But there's something very comforting in in accepting that.

[00:46:38]>> If once you start thinking, okay, this is this is all going to plan. This is what I'm going to do next. And then you're [ __ ] because you because then because it doesn't work like that. Mhm.

[00:46:48]>> And and and so it's much better to just I I think the only the only way I can operate is just to sort of bumble along, you know, and I'm always amazed when people say, "Well, it's going really well and yeah, there's a they can trace a through line, you know, but it's >> over your career like you've made all of these steps."

[00:47:06]>> I have that doesn't make any sense.

[00:47:07]>> Well, being married to an actor, too, I mean, you're all like building your lives around things that you have so little control over. I don't know. I don't know how you make that.

[00:47:14]>> It's It's lovely. You're like, "Oh, we we did it. We may, you know, we're doing, you know, the kids are fairly sane and happy and, you know, >> it's lovely and not insane and frustrating. It it presumably is that sometimes, too, but it balances >> you know, we're very lucky. We've we I managed we both managing to keep the show on the road and I've, you know, acting is a very hard and precarious and strange profession, you know, so I'm I know I'm in a minority, but I do I do feel grateful to work. I do I like I like being able to go to work and I feel I like being part of the gang. I like I like being part of a group if they just let it be on a set.

[00:47:56]>> Yeah. I like being it's a collective endeavor. I think making a TV show or a film or doing a play and that's the that's the lovely thing about it.

[00:48:06]>> Well, the gun for hire thing, you know, you get to get be part of the gang and make the thing and then you walk away from the set and say like good luck in the editing room, have fun. Like you're not taking on that responsibility. It sounds like that's not the part of it that you want. You're going to move on to the next service.

[00:48:17]>> Not at all. No, that Yeah, that I partly because I'm I don't know. It's not my interest. It's not my >> There's a combination of it's I'm sort of lazy and I but I'm not good. I don't mind about that that I can sort of delight in the editing and the music and the everything else and the put the you know the the melding the molding of it >> that you get to watch it kind of as an audience once you're part of it.

[00:48:44]>> But the the thing that turns me on is being on set on the floor >> doing the scene and if it comes out well it does and if people watch it fantastic if they don't that's okay it's out of my hand you know that's all right. It's the doing of it which I love.

[00:49:00]>> How did you get to the uh to the it's okay if they don't watch it part of it because I feel like that's that's so hard to get used to as an actor sometimes.

[00:49:07]>> Any more than But any more than you know if you I I think I started in the theater so you you you put the play on and you can tell if people are liking it or not and then you but you that's your job and whether they come or not that's out of your it's like well >> it's okay. It's a transient. It doesn't matter. Not to say I don't you know I don't care but I I sort of don't care.

[00:49:28]That sounds terrible.

[00:49:29]>> No, you're doing this for promoting your work. You obviously care.

[00:49:33]>> But it's the idea of celebrity, you know, it that it's transactional and that you know that that sort of doesn't then it's becomes about something else.

[00:49:44]With me it's very you you try and make you try and tell a story, you make a piece of art and >> and you you ought to have the right to fail.

[00:49:53]>> Artists should have the right to fail.

[00:49:55]>> Yeah. Um, and if it then things don't always work. And it's good that they don't. You know, it's a hard it's hard to do. It's hard to make a good TV show or to make it's very hard to make a a good film.

[00:50:07]>> Well, and so looking back at Death by Lightning and thinking about The Miniature Wife, which is coming out now, I just the way that both of them work with tone and something of saying like you don't think this is going to be funny, but then it is or you don't think it's going to be sad than it is.

[00:50:19]Excession obviously had so much of this too. And I guess for Death by Lightning as a specific example, do you figure that out on your own? Do you figure it out through the director? Do you figure it out as it goes? Like knowing that the tone that you're playing with it is is going to work and that it's the that you're hitting the tone that everyone else is going for. I think that's that's about rehearsing and and working with Matt Ross, our director. And >> and I think you know very I think you get a sense very quickly of what show you're in >> as long as you're not just parachuted in. You do you're like okay turn over you go. as long as you know and but mostly that's from Matt. Yeah. and >> he was it was such a wonderful collaboration with him and and our writer and you know and also the production design and all the rest of it and but that it was Matt really and we talked and talked and before we started shooting and um it was yeah that that's that's what everybody knows what show they're in.

[00:51:26]>> Yeah. Um, that's what that's the famous quote from what's that John Gilgood quote. He said, "Sty style is knowing what play you're in."

[00:51:36]>> That is a good way to put it.

[00:51:38]>> So, it's a lot. So, nobody, you know, so we're all in the same show.

[00:51:42]>> What's the teamwork thing you're talking about, right?

[00:51:44]>> N coward in the corner or, you know, or or doing like doing something else.

[00:51:50]>> Um, >> do you feel like you know that in the moment? Sorry, go ahead.

[00:51:53]>> No, I'm waffling on. Um did you like in the moment if you know you know if you're working on something where it doesn't feel like everyone's on the same page like knowing that being in the moment on the set is what you love do you sense it being like oh no like we have not we are not on the same team right now.

[00:52:05]>> Yeah tonally this is a bit bumpy. Um, >> even though it changes in the edit like you know sometimes it's going to be totally different >> sometimes but then yeah sometimes but it's like somebody didn't get the someone or or someone wasn't in rehearsals or someone has decided >> beforehand to come and give a different performance or >> I don't know but then that again that's >> that's part of collaboration and rehearsals and you know communication and working on something together.

[00:52:33]>> Yeah. So now, you know, you're past this the end of succession period and figuring out what you want to do next.

[00:52:38]It sounds like being a gun for hire is still the move, but like are you I don't know, thinking about what's next or what you're aiming for any differently than you were a few years ago when Death by Lightning came your way. Like do you feel like there's there's a phase of the things that are speaking to you or anything else right now? No, I um No, I'm just I'm bumbling along as I always have done for the last 30 years.

[00:52:59]But I think I I think it's always the same if you if you played a certain type of part maybe then you look for something with a different flavor or a different you know I think I should probably if I can have a break from slightly excitable Midwesterners slightly demented >> but I am but I am actually happily I'm doing Um, uh, we're making The Spy Who Came in From the Cold, which is John Larry's.

[00:53:36]>> That's the big one, right?

[00:53:37]>> One of the big Yeah. And all the Smiley novels thereafter.

[00:53:41]>> And George Smiley is a very quiet um, private man, private Englishman.

[00:53:47]>> And so that'll be a that'll be a very different feel, I think.

[00:53:52]>> Yeah. Well, you know, George Smiley and then Voldemort in audiobooks. Like that's uh that's getting away from the American Midwesterners very effectively.

[00:53:59]>> Yeah. Still deranged but just in a different way.

[00:54:04]>> Just in a slightly camp English.

[00:54:06]>> I love the idea of just like just try to shut up and be quieter and see if that feels like a different speed. Like what a good idea.

[00:54:12]>> Stop talking. So they don't stop. Yeah.

[00:54:15]Ghetto doesn't stop.

[00:54:16]>> Well, when you're handed scripts like that though and you get to say all that stuff out loud like >> But it's great.

[00:54:21]>> Yeah. Who would say no to that?

[00:54:22]>> It's great.

[00:54:24]That does it for today's episode. On this week's Prestige Junkie Afterparty, we are wrapping up our 2006 Canon. So, if you haven't joined us yet, please do go to prestigejunkucky afterparty.substack.com to subscribe and join us there. In the meantime, this podcast is edited by Brett Fox and produced by Brett Fox and me. Our theme music is by Dave Gonzalez.

[00:54:45]Thanks again to my co-host today, Chris Murphy. Subscribe to the Prestige Junkie newsletter at the.com and subscribe to this podcast on Apple, Spotify, YouTube or anywhere else you get your podcast.

[00:54:56]We will see you next week.