Repairing relationships after no contact requires focusing on self-reflection and personal growth rather than trying to change others; effective communication, understanding different perspectives, and building consistency over time are essential for healing fractured family relationships, as the person who wants change must take the lead in making changes themselves.
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Repairing Relationships After No Contact | Tuvia Blau & Hindy Herman
Added:We believe it's worse than death. Saying to somebody who's been alienated from their kids and their grandkids, "I haven't seen your children in so long is devastating. It's like cutting them with the knife."
>> I did work with someone once who had a parent that actually committed suicide because he couldn't live with that anymore. So >> mother comes and says, "My my my daughter's asking me to honor her boundaries. We were eight kids in a two-bedroom apartment in my boundaries.
She's like, "What kind of boundary?"
>> I work with parents whose children don't talk to them and their first desire is to bring them out of the will. I still say, "Give your kids your money when you're still alive." If you can get along with the ex, your chances of being alienated from that child are way smaller.
>> But do you find that every parent um has the same goal that they want the family to be together?
Okay, today uh we're discussing a uh struggle that affects countless families. Um few want to talk about it.
Um it's about parental alienation.
Um a parent being separated, the pain of a parent being separated from their children being torn apart by conflict and misunderstandings.
Uh joining us today we have the founders, two individuals uh of an organization called Vahes of Life. Um they're dedicated to restoring relationships um and healing fractured families. We have Tovia and we have Hindi. Um welcome to the struggle.
>> Thank you so much.
>> Nice to be here.
>> Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Um before we get into parental alienation, I would like you Hindi if you can be so kind and explain what is parental alienation.
>> Thank you for asking and I think we have to clarify because people do get confused. There is the term parental alienation and then there is the term estrangement or as the whole world calls it today going no contact. Parental alienation really refers to a child who is taken from a parent due to what we call an alienator. Sometimes in a case of a divorce that could be a parent, sometimes it could be a mentor, sometimes it could be a married spouse.
Um, but when we use the the word parental alienation, we're referring usually to some kind of mentor or parent in a divorce or high conflict situation that is what they say brainwashing a child or an adult child even. So what you're saying is that are we discussing also adult children who had like some kind of conflict with their parents and they themselves parted ways which there has no mentor in involved. It's just it's just the dynamic between the family.
>> Exactly. Sometime it's just the dynamic between the family. Sometimes a child can feel that there was some kind of abuse or sometimes and that's a very big word today some kind of miscommunication mis not understanding our children and that's just a broader term of estrangement. Many times when our children get married and there's a spouse who gets involved or you know they start to become close to a spouse there's some kind of disconnect between parents and their married children and the parents might see the spouse as alienation >> right >> whereas the child just may see not really he's not alienating or she's not alienating I'm just struggling with you now that I'm married and it has nothing to do with him. So it's a it's a term that sometimes it's depending on who you're asking, >> right? Then also sometimes the couple want they want to build now a relationship and for some reason one of them decides that this is uh better for us if we you know create some space and the parents get triggered by it and they had a whole different vision in their head and their illusion before the children got married how they want this to play out and all of a sudden um there is like a miscommunication between the child and the parents and >> exactly huge stuff. This is this is unbelievable stuff that is going on.
>> It's very hard on parents when their children get married to see this as a new dynamic, a new relationship. There's another person involved now. And Torah tells us when a couple gets married, they build their own home. And sometimes those boundaries are a little not clear >> to the parents and to their adult children. And there is a lack of communication of understanding and expectation >> expectation. And it and it it creates an enormous amount of pain.
>> Yes.
>> Let me ask you uh to um what is usually the argument behind this behavior when you talk to people and you see that that they fell into this dark alley. What do you hear from the people? Why are they doing this and and uh you call it uh whatever alienation and stuff like that?
What is what is their response?
>> Yeah, I think it's important to clarify that there are two sides to this sugia.
There's the parent in the mix and then the adult child.
Those are two totally different perspectives, right? Like you said, the child may feel like they're doing what's absolute best for themselves. They're creating space. They're protecting their mental wellbeing and and and their health, which is very big in in on social media right now that it's all about you, which which we appreciate.
The parent sees that distance as rejection. They're seeing it as you're doing this to hurt me. The challenge, I think, on both sides, is a breakdown in communication. We are so great, especially within the system, to learn things like Torah and how to build a a home, but we haven't done collectively such a great job at empowering people with the right tools to effectively communicate how they're feeling to somebody else. And so what happens is comes out as blame. And as a result, there's shame and there's guilt and there's grief and there's complete and utter breakdown in validation. Meaning somebody, you know, it could be the child that says, "You weren't there for me, mom and dad." And the mom or father will say, "How could you say that? We were definitely there for you. We gave you the best schools and the shoos and we, you know, you had the best summer camps." And that is invalidating the way that the adult child feels. So they feel shut down, put down, put out, and defensive. And now we just have a back and forth with you said this, I said that, you're right, I'm wrong. Rather than, which is something that Hindi and I work tirelessly every day with our our our clients is to get them to understand perspective. How you see something is very different than how I see something.
It doesn't mean that you're right and I'm wrong. I like to say relationships are not pizzas. More for you is not less for me. We need to work towards communicating effectively in a calm, kind, compassionate way so that we can begin to understand why somebody is saying what they're saying. And I always like to say too that what people say and what they mean by what they say are usually two very different things, right? Um, you hurt me is could be something like I need a hug. I'm struggling. I can't find the right words. And that's where the breakdown really occurs on both sides. And by nature we like to project our own what the way we see certain things. We think that the other person sees it the same way.
>> You know the Rambam tells us I learned this from one of my clients. I learned so much from my clients by the way >> and one of my clients is a RV and he told me that the Rambam says that no two people in the world have the same perspective in the same way that we don't have the same features.
>> The same way we don't look alike, we don't think alike. So it's almost like you always say impossible to really understand what somebody else is seeing and thinking.
>> Yeah. So creating distance.
>> Yeah.
>> Is that unhealthy? Is that is there a healthy way in creating distance? Uh what is the word creating distance mean?
>> I love this actually. Uh we say space.
>> Yeah.
>> Okay. But as you said it sounds different depending on which side of the table you're on.
We believe that inherently children want a relationship with their parents and parents want a relationship with their children. They may not want the relationship that they have today and they may not know how to get it. And that's where you know our work has been really you know hashem influential and empowering to people.
>> What we say is if you can begin to hear what the other side is saying differently everything shifts. For example, where an adult child might say, "I need space."
>> The parent might receive that as they're distancing or they're cutting off, but we what we believe to be true >> at the end of the day is that when the child says, "I need space," they they what they're really saying is, "I need runway." Meaning, I need that space to vocalize how I'm feeling without you intervening, interjecting, creating a scenario where it's all about you and the way that you saw it or, you know, trying to justify this is what we knew and this is who we are. Without doing that, that's what limits space.
And when we limit space, you know what we create? Pressure.
>> Okay. There's a analogy I like to use, maybe a little idea that talks about if I were to hand you a lemon and you were to squeeze it, what would come out?
Well, lemon juice.
>> Now, some would say that the lemon juice came out because the lemon was squeezed.
But if you have a couple of month old srogue, you know that not to be true.
There's nothing left inside.
>> But here, when a lemon is squeezed, when pressure is added, what comes out is lemon juice because that's what's inside. So, when a child, I'm just using that for an example. It could go one way or the other. I'm not placing blame here. But when a child feels pressure, right, or is put on the defensive in this case, what's coming out of them is what's inside. Hurt, reg uh resentment, rejection, loneliness, or abandonment, or just pure frustration or some other emotion that they yet haven't identified. And that's why if you if in this case, if the parent was able to say, I hear that you need space, and that seems to be healthy for you right now. But what does that look like for you? And how can I know that I've given you enough of it? And by the way, what will I need to do to create a level of comfort and safety for you so that you could tell me when the space is is over or when you are ready for me to come close and what that would be like if we were on the same page. That's how we move towards resolution and not stay focused on the problem.
>> What you're saying is communication is the key. Communication is where everything falls apart. I remember I was many many years ago in college I had a marketing class and I remember on day one the professor gets up there he's laying out the syllabus and he says >> before we begin class I want to say this it is virtually impossible to communicate anything to anyone and so that's the starting point >> not to mention that we're in a generation today that can't be further apart from the generation before we talk about this all the time each generation gets further and further apart So yes, there's a miscommunication, but the words that we're using are foreign to the generation before. I always laugh when mother comes and says, "My my my daughter's asking me to honor her boundaries." We were eight kids in a two-bedroom apartment in my boundaries like what's >> And I hopefully we'll get into this idea of boundaries because I think we have the wrong approach and the wrong mindset of what a boundary is. These things are not intended to keep people out. They're intended to invite people in into the space that you've created like a kay like a vessel. So it feels good for me and it feels good for you in a safe way.
>> I think right I think when we you use the word space if parents would understand it as space is as a means to reconnect rather than a shutdown and a running away and going away forever.
Space doesn't mean leaving. Space means like you said runway. I need a breathing point so I can figure this out. And you know what? Parents need space too.
>> Correct.
>> We need it also. We have to gather ourselves, get grounded, and figure out how do we want to work to understand our kids. We need it also.
>> The magic happens in this space. I think about I keep telling myself, Monday, it's Monday again. I'm going to work out. I'm going to go to the gym.
>> But you don't build muscle on the days that you're working out. You build muscle on the days that you rest. We think about this idea of of meditation and mindfulness and slowing down and going in and you know this idea of self-reflection. I mean Yiddish is built on that right what I see out there is really a message for me to work on myself that we need that space you know what to do to breathe to let our nervous system calm down I always say it's harder to address an issue when you're in that fight orflight response. So it doesn't change what's happening if I'm calm or relaxed. It just changes how I feel about what's happening. And I'd rather start from a position of strength when we always say our battery life is full rather than depleted because the words are going to come out a little bit more clear, right? A little softer, a little bit more compassionate and kind than they would if I'm completely on empty and just trying to, you know, grasp for that air that I'm really requesting >> and react. Right.
>> India, I want to ask you a question.
What is the difference of normal family conflict and alienation?
>> I think I think that we need to understand that every family has disagreements. Every family goes through things. What makes sometimes a family at a loss disconnect and take that space in a negative way of going no contact to the one that can work it out because we all go through things. I don't think there's a family that hasn't. The difference is the willingness and the openness and it starts with the parents to work to try to understand their children. I feel that um in my generation, right, the way I grew up, my father Kinhar is 92. He says what he thinks, we all nod and it's all good.
And at my age, I'll do what he says or I won't. But there's no telling him there's no telling him anything. And we respect that. We're a different generation. Today's generation, parents really need to work hard to look at their children and see what it is that they need. What it is that my my children needs in order to grow to be complete whole human beings to serve.
Not to the when when a parent when a parent spends their time worrying will my children be in me? Maybe they're not having the proper aim. That's where we go wrong. That's the difference. When the parent is focusing on what the child does to respect him, the child pulls away. It tells us what makes a good family, what makes a healthy family, what makes children connected to family. And that's when a parent understands his purpose in raising his children is to guide them physically, mentally, spiritually, emotionally so that they can serve and do all his mitzvos in the proper way.
And that includes at some point, of course, and when you give your child everything that they need. And it's okay if they don't understand you or they ask questions or maybe they don't agree with you, but to be open to hearing what it is you have to say rather than to shut them down. That's what's going to make a conflict in a family normal. To be able to hear your children, not take it personally, not not worrying about your own cover. And I'm not saying we worry about our own cover, but we feel that if a child does something wrong, we need to tell them watch your aim. That's their job.
>> What I'm hearing you saying, and tell me if I'm correct, is that the children are not ours.
>> They're not.
>> We are here to do our job to raise these children, but they're Hashem's children, and they're individuals, and we have to let them grow. even though we had a vision and a picture and an illusion of how things are going to be and let them develop on their own.
But you're saying another point is that the relationship is way more important than the ego or the argument or being right.
>> It's all about that. The way you said it with your with your father is that to keep the family together and to respect my father and to have this relationship.
It's better to be smart than right.
>> It's the only thing is to be smart if you want to have your kids connected.
>> You could be right if you sit down with 10 people and you and everybody tells you you're 100% right.
>> Being right is a very lonely place.
>> But it's like you can't deposit it in the bank.
>> Absolutely not. and it shuts down the kids and it makes them feel that they're not safe to share with us how they feel.
>> So the value of having a relationship or having a family together must be way heavier, must be way stronger than being right.
>> Absolutely. I think I think that our our previous generation of parents, that's how they raised us and it was okay for us. It worked for us. You know, we're all children of a different generation.
Many of from my generation, my our parents were Holocaust survivors. My parents were not. But they grew up in a different time of survival.
>> They was just about survival. And they needed to teach us. Like I thought it said you could go become a computer programmer or you could become a CPA.
That's it. And you pick which one you want. And neither one was very exciting for me, but I picked one.
>> Today I do something different. But I would never tell that to my children. I would listen to my children. What are your talents? What are something that you feel that you can go into? So meaning they were thinking survival. We got to get our kids on track. We got to build. We have to create do. We got to build up something that was so lost. And that's where they were focused. Today we're in a different place. Our children have much greater needs. And like you said, being right. I am right, but they could be right too. As Tobia said, there is no one right. So if I can understand that, yeah, I'm right. But what are they thinking? What's their perspective? I don't understand it. If I'm open to hearing their version because they're right, too. My relationship will be much stronger >> and they'll feel comfortable to talk to me and to share with me. And that's really what it is to raise children, even adult children, to give them the tools so that they can serve in the way that works for them and to feel complete. We want to make it easier for them to be, right? We don't want to make it so hard. We want to give them all the tools that they need to grow and thrive.
And when we do that and our our intentions are fully and about what is going to be best for my child, I want to hear them. I want to hear what works for them, >> right?
>> I want them to be comfortable to share with me.
>> The intention has to be right. Your heart has to be in the in the right place. Let me ask you to uh what are the warning signs when it comes to um isolation tactics? sometimes, you know, the the the parents were threatened by the new couple or whatever the case is.
What should somebody look out for? Um if, god forbid, you know, a person falls into a situation where they feel that um one spouse is isolating the other spouse from coming to the family.
>> Yeah, I think this is a huge challenge because we all have a perspective that is skewed by two things. one the information we have at the time and as you know we usually are missing a big piece of the information and two skewed by the emotion that you feel during that time.
So I think the caution I would say not necessarily the warning signs but the caution is to panic immediately if you haven't heard from your child in a few days or if you feel that a conversation was left open-ended or you didn't feel like you got closure to a argument that you had to instead sort of sit in the uncomfortability of that and to embrace it. I think that we perpetuate what we believe to be a warning sign that we've created in our own mind. That might not be the narrative that's really existing.
And so, it's more of a caution than a warning. And for everybody on both sides, the adult child in the mix, the the the the spouse of the adult child, the the parents, both of them, is to take a pause, to slow down, and to take a moment to self-reflect.
What am I to learn from this? I'll take a line that Hindi likes to use and we always ask ourselves like llama why why why is this happening? Why am I going through this?
>> Why me?
>> Why me?
>> But if you change the emphasis >> I've learned from you a lot lama right for what? For what purpose am I intended to see what I am? Right? If you're part of um the seeing what you're seeing, then there is something that Hagard Sparkle is trying to show you. So if rather than reacting to them, how I want them to be different, how I want them to change, how I want them to get back to me on both sides, if I could take a pause and say, "What is it that I'm really experiencing right now? How can I serve myself?"
>> Like why why is this triggering me?
>> Why is this triggering me? Why do I feel the way that I do? What do I feel? Is it rejection? Is it loneliness? And by the way, we we we talk a lot about the difference between the way somebody feels and and and their emotions and really what the difference between them is. And I think it's a bigger topic than our our topic today. But we could choose what we want to emote, right? So if you don't want to feel the emotion of rejection, then what do you want? And if it's connection, then great. How do you then align your actions so that you're moving closer to what you desire rather than further away from it? So the caution is that we're leading with how we feel and the limited information that we have. And so the warning sign should be more of a ding ding ding, right? Like a like an alarm bell that says, "Wait a second. What if rather than trying to prove, I work towards understanding.
Rather than trying to share my perspective, what if I work towards gaining information that tells me how they're seeing the world?" If both people do that, this thing changes in a moment's time and everybody feels good about getting what they want. And that's the key. We are here to co-create relationships. It has to work for you.
It has to work for me. Because if it doesn't, that's where the breakdown becomes. When a person feels like they're giving more to something than they're getting back at a point in time, it breaks. There's an imbalance and the whole thing falls apart.
>> Co-create and coexist.
>> Co. I love that we should create bumper stickers.
>> But I must share with you that I what I learned not long ago a very interesting concept of how to stop ruminating. You know the maku is keeps on going >> and you build up like you said you build up this idea because you have a vision in your head from before how this is supposed to be and you get these messages from people.
So there's an interesting concept of the the the reason form and the reason formed.
It says in the ten commandments >> where does Amed come from? Because you're not happy with your lot. You're not happy in the house you live. You're looking for somebody else's house. So the idea is that your desire, your will that you want has to be means let my will be the Hashem's will.
But if you're a you're like okay if you didn't get 100% of your visions so you got 50%. Yeah.
>> Everybody has malice that you can look and you can find good things >> but otherwise you're starving. Uh you're starving. You could have a billion dollars in the bank, but if you want two billion, you die starving.
>> Absolutely.
>> So that person who who makes $120,000 a year is way more happier than you.
>> Yeah. So to change your idea of the expectation like you said before and your vision is just to be a just change your will because the reason of the rumination and the looping the thoughts and and and building up these twin towers of ideas that is going on between the family is just why don't you calm down and just enjoy the present moment >> that's easier said than done but I'm just saying but if you have the concept of being a otherwise you are losing ing every day of your life. You're actually walking around miserable >> while things are going on. It's pretty decent, pretty good stuff happening to you, but you're losing it. So, let me ask you as far as um personality disorders.
>> Yeah.
>> You see, what we spoke till now was about um parents, you know, hopefully healthy adults and healthy appearance. But a lot of times you come to a you come to a sort of a concrete wall where you see parents are limited >> or sometimes the children are limited. I mean it's a fact. Um how do we deal with that?
>> Yeah.
>> Well that's very interesting and we see this all the time and just to be clear you know most people who are strange will identify the other person as mentally challenged, narcissist, toxic narcissist, bipolar. Um, and I'm not here to decide if they are or not, but I'm here to help them through it whether they are or not. Now, I have one client, uh, I'll share I just last night spoke to her. I have been working with her for quite a few months, an adult child, and she wants to be able to be Makab, her father, and he is definitely has some kind of personality disorder. And I even met with him to help him with tools to help him to connect to his daughter. And I saw this is going nowhere. M >> this is not going to go anywhere because he's he's not able to and with this girl I have been working on working to see her father in a new way and to empower herself and as we said not to react and be panicked by what he does. She's an adult now and she got triggered by all her childhood memories. But to take her to a place to help her, to empower herself, to be able to see him as what he really truly is as someone who has really no power over any anymore, >> not in an angry way, not in a resentful way. You just see it, >> right? When she was able to shift her mindset and work on those tools and I spent a long time with her to be able to see him as someone who, as she said, is Miss Kane. He's he's missing. He's he's >> neb. Yeah.
>> And she called me last night, just last night, and she said, "Hindi, >> I finally am not being triggered by him anymore because I was able to get to the point that I no longer see him as threatening to me, but he's he's sad.
He's broken. He he he destroyed his life by everything he did. He's >> I'm sure you can doubt him for this."
and she said, "I actually want to reach out to him with compassion."
>> She was able to replace the anger, the pain, the fear, the triggering with compassion. Now, it takes time. I'm working with her for a while. And she just called me back last night and said, "Thank you. This was amazing for me."
But I reached a point I was wondering, "Is this going to happen?" It takes time. But to really be able to work on seeing them, you can't change people who are mentally challenged, right?
>> You cannot change the narcissist.
Nothing. You cannot fix them. What you need to do in order to have some level of a connection is to be able to see them in a new way. And when you do, you will be able to connect with them and communicate them and have some sort of relationship with them. Yes, with boundaries as Tubby said, but you will be able to find that place that is going to work for you. Can we compare it to a blind parent who the kids will come to shul with the father and they'll tell the father start seeing like everybody else >> right >> we can't see so the kids respect the father like that sometimes you see these children from blind parents >> which are like tremendous respect for their parents they're helping him and this and that and the parents love the kids >> but he's limited in this particular you know he's blind >> and sometimes child's even embarrassed by their parents >> as when they're young they are Later in life they say they have such tremendous respect for for the father what they did for the challenge.
>> You look at this person a different you have a complete different view >> but I think what Hindi is saying is really accurate in a sense that it takes working on yourself so that you can see those limitations of of others. Look, we're not in a space to diagnose and we believe that social media has really created the essence of everybody's a narcissist. Everybody's got a diagnosis out there.
>> However, at the at the real root of what the issue is is there's a failure for people to feel seen and to be heard. We hear this every single day, right? I just want them to understand my inner world.
Why are they not trying to find out who I am and not who they believe me to be?
And that's when somebody is looking for something out there. Like you said, if it's a billion, they'll need two billion. If it's the new car, they're going to need a new house. You'll never find it out there ever. It always exists within you. And so, if you can find a way to build your confidence, if by the way, therefore, space is actually good.
It gives me time to go and work on myself. If I can be less needy, wanting so much from somebody else and be able to show up, you know, ready for a good conversation, this whole dynamic would change. Doesn't matter if there's narcissistic personality disorder or some bipolar, you know, something like this going on.
>> It's about yourself.
>> It's about you. And by the way, >> makes it harder.
>> Of course it does. But in the end of the day, >> right, you know, we spoke about this um you know, Joe and I when when we spoke over the phone, >> there is an essence of what is Hashem trying to show us in this para. Why we we are the Jewish people, Clara, and here we are with one in eight families experiencing this this challenge in in relationship between parent and and adult child. Why? What are we to learn from this? And after doing this for almost eight years, I've come up with two two ideas. One, I think what Hashem wants is for us to work on ourselves to feel confident, to feel worthy. You said we're all Hashem's ch childrens before we are our parents' childrens. And therefore, we get up every morning, we say modi, and somebody believed in me. I should believe in myself. And by the way, I'm looking at the camera and I'm speaking directly to me cuz I need to work on this. every single day when I get up I'm happy to say mod ani but do I really believe that I am worthy of of of of being a messenger Shalia by Hashem that I could serve the world in a way that really feels positive and and good for me and the second thing I think we're other than working on ourselves and growing in our midos and how we show up in the world and how we engage in in relationships with others is this idea of true compassion Hindi has said this a few times today and it's something that we speak about every day to truly understand the essence of compassion which I think most people when they try to define it for themselves will use some version of empathy putting yourself in somebody else's shoes but we see it a little bit differently the way that Hindi and I like to approach this and think about the idea of compassion which again I think is for all of us to learn in this is the ability to sit in the room listening to how somebody else feels sometimes negatively about you without trying to change it or fix it for them. And as a parent, we just want our kids to grow up and to have happy and peaceful and successful lives. But it's not for us to fix what's going on for them. It's for us to be in it with them without change. Not yet. Not until they're ready and have communicated what that change looks like. That is huge.
And that is all things that I can do for me. Now, if mom and dad would do it and adult child and spouse will do it, this whole thing changes pretty quickly. You know, there's been um this topic has been brought to light by Oprah and Dr. Phil and what we have found in watching sometimes by cringing. They are so focused on the problem, right? What did you do and why did you do it and you weren't there for this one and this kid didn't get what they need? We say forget that. That's that's nonsense. That's for the secular world. We are all about solutions. And we are here in this big long corridor called life to work on ourselves and to show up better for ourselves to connect with Hashem and to serve one another. And if I serve you and you serve me, we both get what we want. And that is the definition of humility. And I'm pretty sure that in in that we're trying to emulate Hashem. And another thing, you know, when you actually reach that point that I can get past that anger at my parents to realize that in some cases they don't have the ability to have compassion for me as in that case I said they don't have the ability to give me what I need. How could I do this? Right. It's about giving it to yourself and doing that work. And really that's going to be the true definition of your healing.
>> Yeah. Because when you sit with it and you let it, you separate because it's just too painful and it's too much and my parents cannot give me what I need.
If you're not going to work to give it to yourself and to be able to see them with compassion because they're so missing it, it's so sad, right? You're not going to be able to reach that place of true healing. And there's always that pain that you're going to carry with you throughout your life.
What I'm hearing you saying, and tell me if I if I get this, is you're validating the idea that maybe a child did not get what they want or whatever the case is.
And sometimes, you know, parents, they we we learn at the job. We learn on, you know, we train on the job. Everyone >> I do as well.
>> So, so what's the idea? The idea is that sometimes you will hear a child say I wasn't chosen. You know, my my mother, my father, they like the other siblings better. They gave more. You hear this a lot.
>> What I'm hearing you guys, your perspective is we're validating that.
This happens. It happens. Your feeling we cannot argue with. It's not about if if it's true or not. We're just not arguing with your feeling. This is how you feel. Great. as a starting point, not as an end point. Right? Meaning validation is not an agreement. It's an acknowledgement that you are >> that you feel this person correct that you're seen and understood >> and understanding. It is true.
>> It is true for them. It is true for them. But what you're saying is >> that um to to sit over there and wallow in that misery is not going to help anybody. What you're saying is learn something from it. get um use it as a stepping stone. Understand where your parents came from, what triggered them to do it. Basically, the work is inside you% >> and you whenever you whatever issue or obstacle or struggle or frustration that you have, never point the fingers.
Always go back. It's not don't take blame or shame. The idea is take the information that has been given to you.
take your experience and figure out how you can learn from it. Maybe you become a better parent, a better friend or something. The focus has to always be inside instead of outside. The most successful families doing this work realize that by empowering themselves to make changes to heal from within, as you're saying, >> but learning these skills of how to validate, which is really the focus of our work, how to ask the right questions so that you can understand why somebody is seeing it the way that they do. But the most powerful shifts don't resolve necessarily right away the issue between parent and child, right?
>> It begins to open up and help resolve shalom bias issues or relationship issues or you're now able to learn how to set boundaries with your children or at least understand what you mean by that. But it then allows you to be a better friend.
>> And so everything is interconnected. And that's the beauty that Hashem, you know, blesses us with with this challenge. It shines a light on not only what I need to do over here to resolve this makus, but how I can begin to be a better person for my husband, for my other children, for my friends, for my community, for the work that I do and how can I serve myself to feel like we always forget, you know, I always say there are these five areas of a person's life that make someone whole. That's spouse or shik depending on the para, right? family, which is really the the topic of today, your work, your finance, social community, and and self. We forget what we're doing out there in the world, has to work for us. And it's not about putting ourselves aside. It's about standing up and staying with our power rather than giving it away.
Remember, giving away your power is when you allow somebody else's words or actions to change or influence the way you feel.
>> And the good news is, you don't have to get your power back. You just have to stop giving it away. Stop allowing others their actions the way they're showing up in the world. We're not here to tell other people how to behave.
>> Also, how important is it that the result is not important? Which means that if I'll back off, what is that person going to do? I'm going to put in 50%, he's going to put in 50%. I did it.
He didn't.
>> That's that's something that a lot of parents are asking us, why do we have to do all the work?
>> Right?
>> And the answer to that is is because you're the one who reached out and you're the one number one who wants it.
The person who wants something has to be the one to make the change. Right? If I'm waiting for someone else to change, what are you calling me for? We we're going to have a conversation that we have no effect on someone else changing.
And when a parent takes the lead and sets an example, >> that is the best way for the children to see it and to respond >> and to learn from it and to learn from it rather than telling them what I'm even going deeper that even if it's let's say the child has to take this step. The idea is you can't build this on a result. You're building this because you want to change. Whoever has the problem cannot wait for something else to happen, >> right?
>> They have to do the change anyway, whether it happens or not. You have to get out of the way.
>> Everyone has their work to do.
>> If you have to start with, but don't expect someone else to do their part because that's going to keep you in the loop. Am I correct? Well, part of part of the reason that disconnect and estrangement continues is because one side is still trying to make the other side understand what they're doing wrong. And as long as we do that, we're going nowhere.
>> Right.
>> When we wait for someone to get that and and I see always on people's statuses, they're posting what they want their children to hear. Yeah.
>> And you know what? That feels good for you, but they're not hearing you. if you would post on your status what what what I need to understand so that you will feel inspired maybe they're going to hear that and maybe they'll have a better response but to understand that I take the lead to figure out how to get what it is that I want and if I want to start to build a new relationship how am I going to go do that without waiting for someone else to change I'm not looking to change them I'm like you say I'm looking to change myself so that I can be understood and heard by them better by taking the lead and setting an example and showing up for our children in the way that they need. They're going to see that and they're going to learn by example and at some point they're going to give it back. It takes time.
It's a lot of what we say. Change is equal to consistency over time. This is Toby's line and I love it. But that's really it's a formula. It's a mathematical formula. Little little steps of showing up in a new way. Even if it's something small, right? Little little conversations, little little comments. It doesn't have to be major, right? But if I constantly, consistently, even if I make some mistakes along the way, little steps of showing up for you in a way that you need, my child's going to see that in me and they're going to feel safe with me, uncomfortable, and they're going to start to reciprocate that.
>> You mentioned earlier, Joe, uh, intention. And we believe that that is literally the starting point, right? If you want to walk, you have to intend to do so. Then the foot moves forward, right? So, you have to create, right, with Cavana where you want to go and then align your action. By shama we know right the I see what the heart desires how we learn it out and this idea of something that we call in in in the mind the reticulating activating system which basically says that whatever your mind is thinking it's going to search for proof right so if in one moment I'm smiling and in the next moment you know I'm showing you this pouty confused face and you Joe think oh tub really is enjoying his time together your mind will take in the moment that I smile And if you thought, well, this guy doesn't think I know what what I'm talking about, you might take in the moment of time when I showed confusion. Both moments existed, but how your mind took in that information was based upon what you had set your dial for. And it's earthshattering when you say, "Okay, hold on. Let me pause. Slow down." We say if if you learn nothing from our sessions, I'll give over a if somebody paid me a million dollars and they said give me the one secret to this whole thing, it would be dispelled down to this one question.
What do I want? Not for them. What do I want for me? What do I want right now?
And to not swallow the ocean and just take the next step. You know, when we you talked about distance in space, when I I I like to think about things visually. So when I think, you know, I'm over here on this side of the cliff and my child's over here on this side of the cliff. There's well a lot of distance, a lot of space. So how do I create connection? Right? I have to build a bridge. It's not just one step. I sent one message. Oh, I was nice yesterday, right? I need step by step, slow and steady wins the race. I always say if you go from where you are which is mlocus disagreement inability to hear and to see each other for who you know each individual sees them as themselves to great relationship you create this pendulum it just swings and nobody's got the numa for that it's too daunting the highs are high the lows are lows getting back into equilibrium and balance takes so much energy and effort we just don't have that much space in our lives so it's about creating that consistency over time slow and steady slow and steady And by doing so, you create a foundation. Many people want to put the heaviness of what was and how they were hurt and how they were wronged on an already crumbling foundation. That's a recipe for disaster. If you work towards reestablishing connection, building that safety, creating a strong foundation, the heaviness that you put on top will be able to be sustained. Otherwise, it's a non-starter. Everything's going to to to fall through and crack.
>> Yeah. Hindi we we we sometimes hear that a sibling can make a ruckus in a family which means between the parents and the other children.
>> So how do you deal with that? Again I know that your concept is the individual that comes in and says I have a problem something my nervous system is not good.
What you're doing is you're focusing on that person. Of course it's about learning lessons. It's about growing.
It's about uh getting the message. Um but what if there is a toxic sibling which is selfish, did not work on their character traits and has an ego and is is is insecure and creates chaos in that family.
>> We were seeing that very often and we're working with families like that.
Sometimes it's also a newly married uh child-in-law that comes and marries a sibling and creates chaos with the siblings. the the another family member the the >> right which creates chaos with that sibling right >> cuz now that sibling has a wife or a husband who's not happy for you >> he's sticking up for her he's caught in the middle we see that very often number one I think one of the biggest mistakes that people are doing with that is taking sides >> and without having information and it creates even more chaos in a family right we're not here to make teams and really to understand that we're whoever we can in each situation to be able to even follow the parents and take the lead of trying to understand what it is that sibling needs. And sometimes I parents, you know, if one sibling creates chaos, they expect their children to defend them or to support them. And that's a very big mistake because you're pushing away that child and that child sometimes needs a sibling to share with and confide in and they should have it. If that sibling is able to have a relationship with them and understand them, it's in the best interest really of the parents and the other siblings to let it be. Let it go because what's our ultimate intention?
What do we really want? Do we want to keep that sibling further apart or do we really want to bring that sibling close with all his problems or his issues? And if we can understand that to just take a step back, we support you mommy tati. We love you. We know you're being very challenged here, but to have a conversation with them. This child is contacting me. They're in touch with me.
I'd like to be able to be there to support them with your with your braha.
Right? If in such a situation, we have better opportunities for the whole family not to fall apart and not for that sibling to go totally gone forever and never to be heard of. But do you find that every parent um has the same goal that they want the family to be together?
>> Not always. Not always. Most of the time >> you can find you find that sometimes there are people who just uh love this this this back and forth this morning, noon and night, phone calls, text. This one said they they just live off this thing. You find that? Well, what I what I am finding for the most part, parents do want their families back together, but there are isolated cases and I've dealing with a few of parents who have cut off their children.
>> Yeah, that's what I'm asking because the nature Hashem put a nature in in us >> to love our children. When we compare Hashem, when we want to build our relationship with Hashem, we are saying >> uh which father does not want the best for their child. Even though sometimes you need to hold they're in so much pain that they're not realizing it and they're not able to focus.
>> They're not realizing that their parents they're not realizing what their job is >> and they're going to come and they're going to tell me they're not me.
>> They don't have aim.
>> So that that that that borders with ego >> it it's I think it's a misguided understanding of what it is that we really need to give our children. Yes, children need to be their parents. It's one of and by the way it's one of the hardest mitzvah to keep right but if I let my child my adult child figure that out and take a step back >> because he's an adult and let him consult with his rv and let him r his rv help him right I will be doing a tremendous favor to myself because the when I'm pushing my child away because I don't feel this covered that child's going to go to his rebi and his rebi is gonna say if your ch parents don't want you you don't have the mid of as long as they're cutting you out your putter from this and and they want relationships with their parents very often. This is a rare, you know, thing that a parent is cutting off a child. But we do see it and it does happen. But as when as as long as a parent is focusing on their child's >> need to be them, >> they're going to be missing out and not understanding how I can really connect with my child. And and very often many parents even the ones that want their children back and we'll do anything.
They're very angry at Rabbanim and we don't like to go and talk about Rabunnam but to to to understand I don't tell Rabanum what to do. Rabunnam tell me what to do. I follow Torah. Tia follows Torah.
>> Yeah. But why are they angry? Because there are Rabun who will say today um they they they listen to the situation and they tell you for your mental health and whatever stay away. You know, there's so many different rabbim and I'm not speaking to each one and understanding their perspective. So for for us to go and judge each RV of course would be very misleading and we're not in the position position to do so. What we are in a position to say is that your child is talking to dust Torah, especially a child that gets married and is having trouble with the spouse. What is Arv going to tell you? Your spouse comes first and the parents that is hard for parents to hear. So we really need to understand that it's my child's job to talk to his RV. Nothing to do with me.
>> So you guys speak to both >> or you speak only to the person who reaches out?
>> The most ideal scenario is that somebody's got to go first.
>> Typically it's always been the parent.
That makes sense, right? In the relationship, it's the parent who needs to lead by example.
>> He's older. Yeah. But recently over the last I don't know year or so we have seen that it's the adult children that are taking the lead because like I said earlier we want >> to do the mitzvah.
>> We want to have a relationship. We want our kids to have grandparents. You know they're alive. This is amazing. But we're not sure how to get it. And so we're willing to come and do the hard work. The best case scenario is when when somebody starts they learn the tools on how to validate to communicate effectively understand what boundaries are and what they aren't. Um and then we use those tools to engage with the other party and invite them in. However, we are not mediators. We do the work individually. child understands the tools, learns how to use them, when to use them, to know they're effective, and to do them consistently, and to change when they're not working the way they want. Same thing with parent, right?
Then both people are moving in the same way so that eventually we can come together and co-create this relationship that we speak about where there's a common language, where there's an understanding of, hey, I heard my dad validate me and he's done it consistently and because it's consistent, I can relax. my nervous system will relax and diffuse from fight or flight. And this now feels good. And when it feels good, it's easier to engage and to to interact with the other party. So, it's usually one or the other will reach out, but then the best case is and we have countless at this point.
And >> and it works best when the child reaches out first and then we call the parents.
And I find that those scenarios work the fastest and time wise.
>> It does.
>> Yeah. when the child reaches out first and then we reach out to the parents and the parents really want this.
>> So what what you're saying is if you get both people to work on themselves, it is dynamite >> and empower themselves with the tools to feel good and to approach it differently.
>> It's easy.
>> When people ask us to mediate, I say mediation is for divorce. It's when I can't talk to someone. I need a mediator.
>> Mediation is not when I want to reconnect. So if you're coming to me and people do ask us, could you be in a meeting with both of us together? we'll say yes, but only after, like you said, we worked with both sides that they both have done the work, they know the tools, and when we're comfortable to sit in a room with all of them, that's when we'll do so. And most of the time, they don't even need it because they'll say, "We need it." And at the point, they'll say, "Are you ready for it?" They say, "We figured this out. We got this. We don't need you to be in the room."
>> Kenzie and I sat in Israel uh a little over a year and a half ago and >> we were having a I think we had Cafe Ramon. Mhm.
>> And we had been talking about the work and Hindi and I have been doing some work together over the last five six years >> and when we said there's a real challenge in Kraal and we think that we have the right tools and techniques.
This is not about theory, right? We always say like therapy has its place.
We're not therapists. We don't want to be. We don't claim to be. Therapy we really believe focuses in on the what and the why. Why did it happen? What's happening? But our work is about the how. How do I make a change? How do I validate? How do I communicate effectively? How do I create, communicate, and enforce my boundaries?
How do I move forward from here? And what we realize is that Hindi and myself, we have such different skill sets. We've had two totally different paths in our lives. Hindi brings a level of compassion that I might not always be able to show. I'm still learning.
>> Okay.
>> And Tobia was my teacher. He's my mentor. But at the same time a lot of times who started with Hindi will then get some of my best you know sort of tools and techniques and and we we we we now work towards supporting the entire family relationship rather than just working what the individual needs but seeing it more globally sharing perspectives. Hindi and I meet twice a week just to discuss are we are we missing something? Are we with our own confirmation biased? Are we leading with our own? Right.
>> We're all doing the work. I always say as long as I have clients sitting in front of me, mostly on Zoom, I have a lot of work to do.
>> Yeah. It's tremendous work. This by it's it's it's unbelievable work.
This is this is tremendous rewarding work and important as important can get.
I want to talk about >> the wheels with that right now. Um >> this rips the families apart >> to to the next level because I know people you know older siblings who don't talk for years for years they will never see each other again it's done parents died >> what's your opinion Hindi >> would you I don't like the word blame but would for a parent who did not set you know especially a parent who has you know real estate and stuff and and your wishes Isn't that the seeds not to do what you have to do? Isn't that the seeds to rip this family apart to shreds everything you worked for for I don't know how many years? I know there's al and there's a bakar and there's the girls get gifts and I you know we're not discussing al here >> but whose fault is this and how should adult kids who are torn apart look at this thing >> I think the parents really need to be careful and to think about when they are planning their their yushias and their wills of how they will be pursued by their children I think that's a very good question As a matter of fact, I work with parents whose children don't talk to them, and their first desire is to cut them out. And >> that's the the the first go-to >> by cutting them out of the will. And I ask them, "How do you want them to see you after you're gone?" Because that can't be replaced. You know, once it's over, it's too late. And when you're gone, you might look down and say, "I wish I would have done it differently."
Because when we do that, our emotions are so taking over. We're reacting to our anger and as we said, do we want to react to our anger or do we want to respond and do the right thing with intention >> and to plan? How do I want my children to see each other after >> tremendous from the parents?
>> They're going to say cottish. Yeah.
>> Because but the is that there's twofold.
First of all, that that child is going to have to deal with this idea that they were cut out. the the relationships there's no closure for that you know >> and second of all part two is between the siblings to see the other sib but again to come back to what you said and I'm a big proponent of that Hashem gave the money to the parent and Hashem can give you the money or more >> or take it away >> or take it away it's it's if you're stuck in a certain place where you guys come in and what I love about what you guys are doing is is a problem. Again, we're validating it is a problem. That child did not get it.
But what you're saying is if you have a different perspective, if you look at life from a different lens and you have a you have and you really trust in Hashem that you will have your kala and fish for shabas, it what is in the way when you want to work on a person is is it is it what's bothering you? Is it bothering you that you were left out, you were cut out? is an image, >> right? It's a rejection.
>> It's not the feeling that I won't have the money.
>> You're working. Yeah. That person feels that I'm just like every other child.
>> But again, the freedom that you guys deliver, the liberty that you guys deliver to a person is for a person to become an individual and say to themselves, the money was not his father's and the money is not mine. And if it's meant to be, >> it will be. It's a certain surrender that because that freedom nobody can take away from you.
>> Nobody can take it. And I I still think for parents to really think with intention of how do I want to set this up. I'll tell you in my case, my father should live till 120. We know everything already. He discussed it with us. We're clear. He gave all of us, you know, an information. He repeats it that he wants to be sure that after 120 there is no makus. we all know exactly what's going on and and um what he's going to give to each one, what everybody needs. We're clear. We're understanding.
>> Is he separating it perfectly or he has there are some who feel that one begets more one less which each their own. I'm just saying the of of of making sure first of all the peace that that person the the child should live with after after the the father passes away or the mother and between the siblings you have an it's it's >> it's it is an for a parent to make sure that each child feels loved and in our case yes it is divided equally but he might you know he also will tell us what is put away for other people for whatever needs and we're aware of that and we know it and he explains it to us and we understand it. He has a a a new a second wife and money has to be put away for everything is understood and clear and communicated so that there will be no makus after 120 and I think that is the best and there are are so many organizations that will help you write your will. Um, Hadasa Wman works for Zahav with the AGA and they help parents to do this in a way that really will be understood. And you know what the best thing is? I still say give your kids your money when you're still alive. Give them now when they could use it and they will feel so loved because at the end of the day it's going to go to them anyway.
I told you a story about I was listening to a podcast and um a wealthy guy was talking about PES programs and I said every peso program is paid for by five credit cards. five credit cards and someone said, "Why are you spending so much money on your children?" He says, "I'm just spending on my Arouchia and I'm enjoying it now."
>> Yeah.
>> They don't realize it, but that's their Yusha.
>> But I think that the the I think what I noticed is that um they die the way they lived. If they gave when when they were alive, if they were generous, they were generous when they, you know, with with with an it's a it's a it's a it's a fabric of a person.
There is a mentality though in in my parents' generation of putting it all all away and then giving it to them after 120. That is their mentality. I think a next generation somehow we realize our kids need more today.
They're having a harder time making a living. They're struggling and sometimes, you know, they do need money.
And I don't think money is what our children need from us to feel loved. But I think it's one of the tools to show that to them. And I think if we help them financially when they need it, if we have it and if we're able to along with showing up for them and hearing it what they need it for, how can we help you? You know, not just to give them, but to come through with an understanding of what is it that you need that I can help you with right now.
Money is just a part of how we can help them. It's money itself is not going to solve the problems, but it's really being there for them and understanding them together with sometimes giving them when you're alive because they do need that support. generations today they our kids are struggling financially.
>> Yeah, it's very tough. So, Tuvia, would I would would it be fair to say that every uh episode that you find every person that comes to you or you talk to is not about um hatred. It is in families. It is more about unresolved pain.
>> I would agree with that.
There is no hatred is what you're saying.
>> I don't think there is hatred. We Hashem designed it that we are part of one another especially in family.
>> I do believe that we're all leading with our own pain. You see this when when people get into new marriages, second marriages, right?
>> You see this when when families blend.
We're all leading with, you know, our our wounds. And we always say that a lot of those wounds get rubbed up against not purposefully, not because I don't like you or I don't like your wife or I don't like what you're deciding, you know, for yourself in your own life, but our own wounds are being rubbed up against and the scabs are are bleeding.
>> And so it's I always say it's very difficult to heal in the same place that you've been hurt. And so we have to do some deep reflection. We have to relax, right? Breathe, slow down, really evaluate what is it that I need to feel connected and what is if it's hatred, then okay, let's work through that hatred. If it's anger, okay, but let's do it in with a qualified professional or with a friend on an afternoon that that is is is specific and carved out and intentional. I think we've we've said that a few times tonight. It's got to be intentional. This is not about hate.
Well, I think hatred is a very strong emotion that comes from pain. It's because of the pain.
>> If you remove that then then if you remove the Yeah. the pain then there's no hatred.
>> We don't hate people who don't affect us. We're just indifferent to them. We might think they're not the nicest people. We might think they're nasty people. But who do we hate? We hate somebody who's causing us a lot of a lot of pain.
>> Right. So what you're saying is that by reflecting and by trying to bring some new uh uh insight to the situation, you're removing the pain.
>> I I think too that we have to be careful that hatred is towards somebody. It's not you that I don't like it. Is your actions or the way in which I perceive your actions. We got to create some some some space between the person and how they're showing up in the world. And that's the shift. It's funny because the same two people on the street, you know, like uh let's use a very general example. I was driving in New York. I come from Philadelphia. I just moved >> to be with my kala in in in in five towns. And and I was driving here and I was cut off by somebody. Now I'm excited. I'm dressed nice. you know, I'm going to be in, you know, with you guys today. That action wasn't the person that I don't like. Okay, I didn't like the fact that they swerved and cut me off and made me react.
That same action, if I was having a bad morning, right, or I was going through a really deep challenge before I left the house or whatever the case may be, it would have changed how I reacted to what I perceived their actions to be. Okay, maybe they're in a rush. Maybe it's easier for me to see something differently if I myself am coming from a good place. The moment that I'm coming from a place of struggle or pain >> Yeah.
>> or you know adversity or animosity or some version of that is the moment that I see your actions differently even if they were the same to begin with.
>> Right. Talking about hatred Hindi. Let's talk about divorce >> because so far we spoke about uh you know families conflict and and at the end of the the you know the the common denominator is everybody wants sham everybody wants peace I don't think there's one person out there who would say hey I love this uh you know you can find but the average person wants peace and and you know this is what the average person wants but when it comes to divorce um there is a closed door there is something that you have to live with. This is there's a tremendous hurt and resentment. Um, >> I love this question.
>> How do we go about >> I'm going to answer you from a personal place.
My one of my sons was divorced and he's remarried. Barak Hashem and his ex-wife is remarried. And in the beginning, they really struggled and it only created more conflict with their child back and forth, went to court. And if my ex-daughter-in-law is listening to this, I hope she does. Um, last week I was leaving the white shaw for a bris and I hear a beep and there she is and she's waving to me. Hi, how are you? And I said, hi. And I said, I'm driving my kids to school and I went into the car.
I said hello to her kids and I was with her friend and she's like, wow, how did you do that?
>> Right?
>> I said we learned we learned the hard way. What's going to be best for my child, for my grandson?
>> Right? when those parents figure out how to have some level of decency, respect towards each other, it didn't work out for us. We have a child here. We want the best for our child. And if I can get to that mindset and figure, okay, we'll get a mediator. We'll work it out. We were not good together married. But you know what? We both have a common goal here. We have a child. And when I find when we're talking about parental alienation, when I reach a place of hearing my ex- spouse's needs, okay, you can't pick him up, I'll drop him, you need the first days, I'll take the second days, I'll switch around, you get the whole pes this year. No, let's work it out. Right? If we fight about everything, you have a higher chance of being alienated from your child because we're all human and we all get angry and we all don't realize that sometimes our kids hear the negative things we have to say about the ex- spouse. They pick it up.
>> You're talking about the parents, >> the parents, the parents of the the parents that were divorced. If they can treat each other with respect and find a place to communicate even directly and get past the mediator and be able to do this, it is be you you will be giving not just your child your child the biggest blessing but yourselves >> yourself >> yourselves you will you will because if you can get along with the ex your chances of being alienated from that child are way smaller and everybody when they get divorced we don't realize it could it could happen it could happen so fast the grandparents is is also a part here because they're also getting alienated from one side and this whole thing is becomes a fire >> that that >> can't be put out >> that can't be put out.
>> We have a saying in our work, pick your hard.
>> Yeah, >> it is hard to go through a divorce >> to communicate effectively when you couldn't do it in a marriage.
>> Pick your poison, >> right? It it it's also really hard to work on yourself and to be matur and to forgive and to let go and to let Hashem guide the world as he's good at doing.
It's hard. But you choose and that's your that's your free will. That's your choice to either show up with intention, positivity, openness. We are givers by nature, right? So we should give not just stop giving because somebody else wronged us or we didn't understand why they may have taken the actions but you choose. Do you want it hard this way or do you want it hard this way? One brings you closer to peace and one >> when you have peace, you have a higher chance of in divorce having a a grandchild child who will grow up thriving, >> right?
>> Comfortable with both sides and you will have a higher chance that your ch child grandchild will stay connected to both of you because even the alienator at some point will be separated from that child. But when that child grows up and realizes that my parents poison me, >> then they they get angry at that parent too and they can end up talking to neither one.
>> So doing we're doing it for ourselves.
>> Nobody is winning.
>> There's no winner.
>> Losing winner. That's the challenge.
Nobody's winning but everybody is suffering as a result.
>> And it's really mindset. We all want the best. None of us were bad. We're all good people. It didn't work. Let's move on. Let's do what is best for our child and for ourselves. Let's figure this out.
>> Um, Tovia, I want to ask you, what happens inside of a person who is being alienated?
>> Can we put ourselves into a person's shoes, a mother or a father or a grandparent that is just distant from this, this grandchild?
>> Yeah.
>> H what do they feel? We have said this before and I hesitate every time because I just don't know another way to express the deep level of pain. It's we believe it's worse than death.
>> That's what they say.
>> Absolutely.
>> Worse than death. And the reason why is because your child is out there in the world. You've you've done everything you can to nurture and help them to grow and to guide and to parent the best that you could. We all doing the best that we can.
>> That's our nature. It's our it's it's part of us. It's not something it's not a job. It's not a job.
>> It's it's who we are >> 100%. And by the way, I hope that people that are listening to this podcast >> will just use this as like, hey, I need to get back to the basics. We already know this stuff. Nothing we've said today is earthshattering, different. We just got to remember it and to and to to implement it. But this is a tough scenario for for parents, grandparents who are alienated. We're personally connected to our clients. They are our family. I'm getting married in August.
And many people I've worked with are part of that sim. And there is true pain when somebody is cut off from from their loved ones. And there's no grieving process. There's no, you know, 7 days, 30 days, 11 months. There's nothing that that Hashem has put in place a mechanism that has allowed us to move through this level of grief and pain. It doesn't go away. I like to say we work our busiest time is mozzy shabas. that loneliness that that that that people going into the community and by the way this is the exact reason why we're so grateful to you Joe for bringing this topic to light because people are suffering in silence above the level of suffering for you to bring this topic a controversial topic moves to fall what do we do about it but to bring this to light so that people can go to a shabas table and for people to realize saying to somebody who's been alienated from their kids and their grandkids I haven't seen your children in so long is devastating. It's like cutting them with the knife.
>> And and I'm sorry to say it. I I believe that people are goodarted, goodnatured, maybe they're not so mindful. They don't realize it. But we have to be attentive to what's going on. Sensitive, compassionate, and understanding that >> it might look good on the inside, but what's really going in uh I'm sorry, it might look good on the outside, but what's really happening on the inside?
People are struggling. We need to work together. We need to encourage people to communicate and to conversate and to to be part of working towards resolution and and like you said, cutting off isn't the answer or people would feel happy and peaceful. They don't feel happy and peaceful. By the way, >> I like to look at things like I know Mother's Day is more of a secular focus, but I think the analogy works well here.
I like to say Mother's Day, for example, or some of these are as painful as for the for the mo for the adult child who's chosen to cut off contact for the mother who's been cut off. Meaning both sides feel the pain, >> right?
>> Yeah.
>> It doesn't feel good to cut off and to resist and to not feel that level of connection. Everybody's suffering.
Everybody's in pain. But everybody can be part of being avatar. Not for the sake of forgiving and forgetting, but to realize that people are doing the best that they can. I'm here to learn where can I grow. How can I lead with intention? And how can I move forward in a way that feels great for both of us to co-create this relationship and to move forward and to enjoy life and to be happy and be simpler with everything that we do.
>> I agree with you. I think for a parent to go through this alienation, it does very possibly feel worse than death. And it's not something we can comprehend. I did work with someone once who had a parent that actually committed suicide because he couldn't live with that anymore. So I we can't deny that and I do think it's a tremendous amount of pain for the child too. Uh we watched that Oprah podcast >> and these were people who cut off their parents for the most part and there were therapists on the panel and they were all saying how happy we are. We're doing great. We have our cats. We have our dogs. And uh Oprah said to one of them um are you happy? And they say, "Yeah, but but you know >> how how one thing I'm struggling with, how do I get past get past the pain?"
>> And the panelists really basically admitted that you can't without your parents in your life.
>> You you won't get past the pain.
>> You won't. They said, "Find a grandmother on your block who's an older lady and you know who will like your kids." Like like what kind of reality is that?
>> Distract yourself. All this stuff that does not work. doesn't work.
>> You know, it doesn't work.
>> It could be a temporary fix, a band-aid if you will, but in the end, >> when the emotion is trapped deeply with inside of you. There's great research and work in the psychossematic, right?
What whatever is trapped emotionally within you creates disease, right?
Disease in the body. And we can look at different things that are created.
People need to look at themselves and say like, what is why do I have so much knee pain? Okay, maybe it's from a bike accident a couple years ago, but maybe there's something more I can learn from this. Like, what do the knees do? Right?
They bend. Am I not being flexible enough in my life? Right? I have foot pain. I'm not taking the next step forward. If I have an eye issue, right?
And I love this work because it's it's spiritual. It makes sense. Hashem's giving us these these issues, these challenges so that we can find ways out of them to grow. But if I have an eye issue, maybe to reflect, where am I not seeing something clearly? Right? If I have um a mouth ulcer, where am I, you know, everything in the mouth is about making decisions or being indecisive?
Where can I bite down on something and and chew it a little bit more, right?
How can I really use what's happening inside my body that gives me a message to grow and I'm afraid? I'm afraid for people who come and say, you know what, never going to talk to them. I'm angry.
I'm resentful. that brings about a lot of illness and disease that I don't know is curable by today's medicine.
>> But let me ask you, the nation is revenge. Is that the reason for it?
>> Very often it could be >> because what what other result do you want from this? That's that I'm trying to figure this out. Or is there a possibility that one of the parents let's say in a divorced uh case that they really believe wholeheartedly that the other parent is unsafe and it's not healthy for that child. So they believe fully that uh it's it's not healthy for the for the other parent to see this child.
>> That's very possible. So then we can figure out ways that that child can be with that parent with a supervisor under supervised conditions with a family member. It doesn't have to be cut off no contact, right? To go cut off no contact is really more I have to say in my opinion it's coming from anger and and and pain and re want to say revenge. But if you fully believe that this parent is dangerous, >> then we can go to the basin and we can formulate and find a way there's ways around parents to see the child in a supervised manner and it's been done and it has been done.
>> What we know about children is they >> love both parents.
>> They need both parents to be healthy normal children growing up in this world. You need both parents. And that is, as you said, when one parent is pushing the child, weaponizing them, which is in a way, and I'm going to say it, >> is abusive.
>> Yeah.
>> To the child.
>> Yeah.
>> Because you're robbing them of the experience and what they need at the core of who they are.
>> What message does a child internalize when they hear a mother or a father telling them that that mother is not good for you?
>> You know, very often it's very subtle.
And if you talk to the parents, they'll say, "I'm not alienating. They just don't want to go."
>> And you hear that all the time. It has nothing to do with me. They could go.
They could go. I didn't stop them. But sometimes we don't realize that the way we are interacting and the way we speak about them in or about them to other people that they're hearing, right? And just letting our kids know what happened. All these things can lead to an alienation. Maybe we didn't do it intentionally, but we don't realize how we're coming across and what we're doing. And in essence, we can be alienating without even realizing it.
>> And by the way, sometimes it's not about what is said, it's about what isn't that causes that child. Right? So if mom is saying, "Oh, it's okay that you're not going to dad's rather than I think it's important that you spend time with your father and if you need help figuring out, you know, how to communicate something with him, I'm here to support you on that or some version of that."
But we have to be careful because the children will grow up and get into the wrong marriages, into the wrong relationships. They'll be with the wrong friends because they'll be searching for something that they didn't get. And that's why we're almost invalidating the way that they feel. We're not seeing them for who they are and to allow them to grow and flourish like we really desire. It's we're we're putting stumbling blocks in front of our own or right. We're getting in our own way.
>> And you know, sometimes there are kids who don't want to go to the other parents house because they're just not comfortable there. And it really is not the parent aliening that happens.
Father's remarried, doesn't like the wife, doesn't like the new siblings.
What could we do as parents to to discuss this with that par that spouse?
He's not happy to come. I want him to come also to be with his father's family, with his mother's family. How could we figure this out or to talk to the mediator and to give the mediator the message? He doesn't want to come.
This is bothering him. Talk to the child. What would you need in order to feel comfortable in that house to help them through it? Because ultimately, you're doing the best for your child.
And we really all want what's best for our children. If there's something that's bothering your child about the other house, help them help them with it.
>> What you're saying is there is a solution for everything.
>> Absolutely.
>> There is no uh >> I think we learned by the Torah that there's the solution created before the problem, >> right? There's a solution. The solution is communication. The the solution is take yourself a little bit out of the equation and and just do something for another uh for the greater good. But um since we're talking about these the divorces and how these children are being some are being alienated and some are being played now that brings up this this auna business that is going on now >> because what happens is you're al a lot of people will say a lot of men who hold back divorces will say oh you're holding back the children I'm going to hold back the divorce >> again that person who's holding back the divorce is not doing anything better than the woman that is holding back the children.
>> I don't want to get involved with the Auno.
>> But but the idea is that if this person would work on themselves and and you have to move on with your life, forget about what are you holding an auna for.
>> You have a problem and that woman who is alienating has also a problem. That's where >> but you need to understand something with the aunos and I'm al in support of aunos and everyone deserves a get.
Absolutely. But if a woman is withholding her child from seeing the father, >> right, >> that is an obligation that she needs to fix.
>> Correct. She wants that divorce. And and when >> it's not because she wants a divorce, she needs to do it anyway.
>> She doesn't need he needs to do it again.
>> But here's the po here's the point.
>> If everyone would do what they need to do, a man is very underrepresented in a divorce because of the children. And many men are getting shafted >> as far as seeing the kids.
>> Okay, >> they are. And I'm seeing it. and and and it is a very big problem that we're not talking about. We're all talking about the Aunas which is a tremendous >> problem. No, we're talking about it now, >> right? We need alienation. We want to talk about it.
>> Men are not being able the they're not seeing their kids enough and their parents and they love their children too and sometimes the children are being weaponized and they know now I'm not excusing them for not giving the get but to understand their perspective they know once I give the get it's over. I have nothing and I can't stop her.
There's nothing I could do to get my kid.
>> Yeah. So, they're using the toy for something that that is just who are you?
Like if she does something that is very wrong. So, let's say I give you an example. Somebody who's coming to you and they're going through a divorce and that the wife decided that he is unsafe and she doesn't want to give the children. How is he supposed to deal with this? Leave the get in the side. to get on the side because that's really where they need a good mediator in divorce and I know some excellent ones and this is this is you know there's Ellie Goldbam there's other people who are really experts at this I recommend you go to a very good mediator to help you through this so we don't reach that point there's also something called hak prenups yes that he's pushing very much and people are scared to do them but it does help you in these cases because just as the woman feels that she's chained >> because she needs that get and she does and she deserves that get.
>> A man is scared and I don't want to put myself in his shoes, judge him because I don't know where I would be. But if I knew that I'm never going to see this kid again once I give the get and there's >> who's going to help me here? Even the courts, it's it's such a process. And then they make the kids come in for counseling and it's it's a mess. And the worst thing you could do is go to a court for the alienation. You will lose.
You will both lose. And if he knows I'm stuck here, there's nothing I can do.
He's got a problem. As a matter of fact, um I just saw in Israel the the Rabanim are >> they're they're enforcing now >> right that um um there were going to be hakas of of of of punishing a parent who was alienating and maybe that will also ultimately help the Auna crisis there it is a problem and I I it's not one thing that I want to judge if what he's doing or what he's not but to see both perspectives this is a very difficult situation >> it Two two wrongs don't make a right.
Two rights don't make a wrong.
Everybody's got to do really according to the Torah what they should be doing.
>> But in the but in a case like this, >> the which person is supposed to u you know be smart.
>> Yeah. Like you know this is huge. This is not a small thing. I'm going to ask you a funny question. Um, what is harder? Uh, losing uh someone to death or grieving someone who is alive?
>> Grieving someone who's alive 100%.
>> I would say that >> the pain is massive.
>> I lost my mother. I was 21 years old and um it was very painful but I always have a feeling that she loved me and she was there for me and in those 21 years she gave me everything I need. and my siblings and I all say, "How do we know >> what to do in this world without her?"
And we said, "Because she gave it to us.
>> It's in you >> and it's still in me." But when you never have that, >> you're seeking and you're struggling.
You can't get that closure.
>> That person is still alive. Let's say the child is alive and you just >> cannot be part of that person's life.
>> I have someone in my life who doesn't feel that love from a parent and they're struggling and struggling and it's such hard work. It's such hard work to get to that place of feeling closure and loved by that parent. We all need to feel loved by their parent. It's not a matter of how much we got, but do we get it?
The quality. And >> wow, grandparents, what can they do wrong? How can they not help out the situation?
>> And you're saying if they're cut off from their child and now have no contact with the >> Yeah. If there's a problem like that, how sometimes they react in certain ways that is not smart.
>> Yeah. Listen, again, smart, not smart, we're not here to judge. However, we do recognize that it's a huge challenge.
You know, some and I usually recommend against this. That's not guidance in any way, but there's grandparents laws out there. They usually don't hold much water or weight, meaning that there are some rights of a grandparent. I think that's a wrong approach because you're trying to overstep a potential boundary whether you agree or not that the adult child has set. I think it's setting a precedence for your inability to really truly listen and hear what the adult child is asking of you and going after the grandchildren to serve your own needs. However, it's extremely painful.
somebody very close to me is cut off from a a deep love that she has from her from her granddaughter. And it she struggles, I think, every single moment of the day. It's hard for her to to go out into the world and to see other bubbies playing with their with their grandchildren. And although she she supports many other, you know, grandparents, it's it's very hard for her. And so the question is what can be done? And I think this is where we have to strengthen our amuna >> and and and pray and dive and and really to ask Hashem you know what am I to learn from this and what's the next step for me and to engage people like Hindi and myself if it works for them so that they can feel at least empowered people ask Joe all the time what's your success rate >> right >> and uh we say what do you mean by that like what is success here is it just that the parent and the child are back in a relationship that wanted or had >> success being being able to get out of bed in the morning to make it through shabas to feel like they're not grasping for error to feel that level of tension and tightness in their mind and their body that is debilitating and preventing them from going out and living their life.
One of the first exercises that we really um implore or offer to some of our clients depending on where they come in emotionally is to find joy which on the surface is like yeah there's joy in my life but if you start to write down the things that actually bring you joy after about four or five things you sort of lose like what does bring me joy >> right just because you're suffering over here doesn't mean that needs to be your life's you know defining moments and what we have seen with a lot of the support groups that we've helped to nurture and to create with our organization and an amazing organization that we both have worked so dearly with called Broken Ties over the years. These women have come together. They have created relationships that they would have never created had they not been going through this situation. We've seen where people have empowered themselves to make changes in their communities to to to serve differently than they ever thought that they could. So I think that's the idea here. I think Hashem's giving us this challenge so that we can stand up and and lift each other up and be connected. So I think that's the reason why there's so much war because we're fighting. There's so much mahalocus inside Cla that that Hashem's saying there's only one way to bring us all back together. And so it's not easy and I validate the pain of these grandparents so deeply and dearly to my heart. Um I do believe at times the the parents might be robbing the child of the relationship with their parent with so many of us who didn't grow up with grandparents. Yeah.
>> And who missed out on the opportunity what it must feel like for a grandchild to go to school on grandparents day or by the cinder party or or something and they have every they're watching their friends. Okay, they might not be able to articulate how this feels to me mom and dad but it's hard it's hard for them too. So again, we have to look at this globally. We have to zoom out. That allows us to gain perspective. Sometimes you're too close to the situation. You can't see it for what it truly is.
You're leading with that emotion. Pull back. Slow down. What do you need? And then let's work together with potentially professionals like ourselves. And there are many great people out there supporting this work.
Um not specifically the way that we're doing it, but find somebody who can help you. you can't get it out of it yourself.
>> Uh even my myself when I look at me as an expert, I I also need help and support in in challenges in my own life.
>> I think the expression is he who has himself for a lawyer has a fool for a client >> and I sort of try to live by that especially in the world that we we serve in every single day. So >> um this is hard and as you see it's like an octopus. This thing has tentacles.
There's it's not just one thing. It it it it it sprawns itself into so many different siblings over here and grandparents over there and and divorce and and and community.
It just it's it spiders out to a place that you just can't get on top of it.
And I think that if we can all just look inside ourselves, >> I agree with you. Ask Hashem for help and to take the next best step moving forward.
>> So much change and love and growth can happen. I'm watching your sign here that says to struggle and learn. This is living. Otherwise, you're dying.
>> Grasping and fighting. You're creating resistance and friction that you will never overcome.
>> Slow down. Stand up. Okay. You're not on your back.
You know, I do see sometimes, I'm sure you see too, there are estrange families who don't stop their children from seeing the grandchild parents.
>> I do see that. And I think, you know what, if you're going to estrange, at least do it that way because these children are in so much pain. And we don't realize they grow up too, >> right?
>> And they're going to learn from you >> and they're going to see what you did.
>> You're a role model to your children >> and we want to be careful. they will grow up. We don't want to show them that this is the way to do it. Number one.
Number two is they want to seek out their grandparents and when they're adults, they probably will, >> right? They don't see the same thing that mom and dad is seeing the way that the relationship is. They're seeing something totally different.
>> Imagine they know someone who has two grandchildren in the same school and they had a a sitter play and one child gets the grandmother there with a gift and the other child an hour later doesn't. That grandchild sees that That's very painful for the child. Do we want to hurt our grandchildren in that way? Our children. We we really have to think about what's best really for my child. And again, I'm not judging here why the children are cutting off from the grandchildren too. But if we really stop and think about it, I'm entitled to have my issues with my parents. I'm very hurt. I'm very angry. But what am I really gaining by keeping that my children away from them?
>> Let me ask you an interesting question.
Do you find that um a parent or a grandparent uh that is being alienated, do they start resenting these children?
>> Yeah. The ones that are alienating them the >> not not the not the adults, the parents, they start alienating the grandchild.
They start resenting the grandchildren.
>> I think they miss the grandchild. or in in a or in a divorce if a father does not see his son a while in a while and do they start resenting the children or the love for the child is still there and all of the resentment goes to the mom. I think all the resentment goes to the parent because they know that their children are really >> is it like pawns on >> also they're they're they're getting information that I find you know they realize that their children are getting information that is not necessarily what they would term accurate but that's what their children believe.
>> I think mostly the anger is at the parent who is alienating and just so much missing missing their children.
>> I see it slightly different.
>> Yeah.
I think two things can exist at one time. You could feel deep love and unconditional love for your child while at the same time feeling resentful of you know actions that are taken >> like why don't you stand up for me the child. Yeah. Like why don't you stand up for me or you should know better.
>> But remember it's not for a child to take on the emotions of the parents.
>> It's not their responsibility. It's very difficult because there's pain. There's pain everywhere and it's hard not to lead with that with that anger with that pain and and so we just have to manage that. We have to manage the emotions.
Get the support that you need uh to feel good and to to never give up. You know, some people come to us and they say, you know what, I'm done trying. When the time is right and Hashem deems it to be, >> right?
>> We will when they knock on the door, we will open it and and we will have arms wide open and we say >> like if that's the space that you're in, honor that space. But the work that we do is active. It's not passive. We are not wishing. We are not waiting. We are not hoping. We are working on ourselves while we wait. We are empowering ourselves while we wish. Right? We're doing the work. Hashem asks for our hashtagas.
>> So what you're saying is there is a time that sometimes you have to just sit back and say, you know what, >> I I I I'm not mentally there now. I have no time.
>> You know what it's like?
>> I'm creating space for myself. And it's interesting because we started the conversation today talking about how space could be perceived as negative, but when I'm taking it for myself, remember that's active, right? I'm not doing this anymore versus I'm creating space so that I can prepare myself mentally. It's a battle. So, I need to get ready to do that, right? I got to create a strategy. This is >> where we come in. And then we need the tactics. What are we going to actually do so that we can execute on that strategy? And when people have an idea of what it takes and where they're going with the right intention, as we keep saying, they're a little bit less likely to say, "I give up. I throw in the tail."
>> They have to meet themselves where they are and be okay with that. not forever, but for right now, knowing that everything changes in an instant. Your situation can change. And we could give you countless and countless examples of hell.
>> And I think an example of what you're saying is sometimes people say, "I give up because it's never going to happen."
Yeah.
>> There's an alienator. He's too powerful.
>> And I think that's when we have to remember Yeshua Hashem. We must always remember there's a greater being than an alienator.
Yeah. anything is in charge. He knows exactly where we are right now. And I am Auna and it's such a great part of what we do.
>> And when they say it's never going to happen, we we say hello. It hasn't happened >> yet.
>> Yet is such a powerful word.
>> I was going to ask you about it about spirituality. How much of understanding um is part of your work?
>> All of it.
>> I was going to say if if they had it, they wouldn't be experiencing it. It's all amuna focus the challenges you know because this is exactly what it's about you know it's funny because I am baluva for just under seven years and I got into becoming religious as a result of working with religious clients >> and sometimes I say like wow this little balchuva from Philadelphia is giving muserard to the rv who's experiencing it by the way nobody is absolved from this >> community leaders the greatest whoever you know with 10 kids who married them all off. Everybody has the potential challenge in front of them. And and and we either grow and we live and we learn or we we die trying.
So you choose.
>> So like to said we have to remember Hashem put us here. This is our he wants us to do something with this. It is not random. And I'm going to bring in the name of where does that come from?
>> Yeah.
>> Beautiful.
>> Okay. So growing up we all know that and then there's the second part of the P that nobody thought about until recently right >> what is that in in um the is telling us who is it is telling us it's the last right what's he saying this is what's going to happen at the end of days this was decreed so you're asking me why is this happening because Hashem deemed it so. Because really ultimately the real reason this is happening is because it's supposed to.
>> Yeah.
>> And we're supposed to Why was the B mikdash destroyed starts in the home in each and every one of our homes. That's where our own mdash >> our own personal bdash in our own homes.
And when we master that, that's when we're to the Msiah. And Hashem is going to send ali his one job when he comes to tell us aloh is coming. Mashia is coming his one job is going to be to repair the hearts of the children to the parents and the parents to the children. So to understand this is all about hashem put me here's >> nothing else >> and he wants me here and I need to figure out what is it that wants for me now in this generation so that I can serve my purpose in this world.
>> Right?
>> We have to emulate Hashem. This is this is everything. This is the humility.
This is our job. Kindness all there.
It's all there.
>> You don't have to invent the reinvent the wheel here.
>> We just have to follow what the Torah has already laid out for us to be in this world so that we can grow and come closer to Hashem. There's nothing else.
>> And then that automatically the ego falls away. Numa, revenge, all this, all the strife, uh, money and all this stuff is if you have that, you're a winner.
Absolutely.
>> In your process, let me ask you something. Do uh do people apologize to each other? Does apologize apologies work?
>> No, not by themselves.
>> There are some other professionals in this, you know, industry that lead with what's called an amends, an apology letter.
We believe that amends fall short because we don't think it's about apologizing especially when the parent or the child whatever doesn't feel that they did something wrong. So now you're apologizing for the sake of doing it because you think that's what they want to hear when >> and then you say it >> and it's not really what you feel and it comes across that way. So only is an apology necessary and warranted at least from our process when you've asked enough questions and gained enough of an understanding of a what the apology is for so you're not swinging and missing.
Two, are they open to hearing the apology and to be able to communicate effectively after the fact to know if that apology resonated in a way that allowed them to move forward past what the apology was intended to do in the first place. So, not yet, right? This is, you know, I'll say just a step further. Not only is it not about an apology, we see so often a client will call and they'll say, you know, we saw you here. We we heard about you there.
This one's, you know, worked through it with you. Um, I want to tell you about some of the communication I've had with my adult child. I'm just using this as an example. And I'll say, okay, what did the message sound like? Well, they haven't responded in four or five months. So, I sent them a message. I love you. You know, you mean so much to me. And my response, I think, catches people off guard sometimes. I say, "This is not about love." Your child knows you love them. It's about showing your child that you see them for who they believe themselves to be and that you hear the words that they're saying and understand their interpretation of them. That's what this is about. It's about pulling back and listening rather than defending.
makes all the difference.
>> Yeah. What you're saying is apology comes from the mouth. This has to come from inside. You have to give that energy. That other person has to feel that you Yeah. that you you get them.
You see them and you understand them.
>> Most of the children when their parents apologize will respond with you don't really mean it. Right.
>> And the truth is they don't because they don't know what they at that time yet.
Apology comes automatically. If you feel that that person sees you and you both look at each other and you you know what let's just bury the hatchet >> and if you say I'm sorry okay it's like I'm sorry for the past but how am I showing up for you for the future and what am I what is an apology telling you so an apology is fine when it comes as to said with hearing them and understanding them and very often when a child says I want an apology might mean really is I want you to see me as he says and hear me and understand me >> by the What they're what the most of the adult children are asking for is a level of safety which may at times thanks to social media be the most overused word of the century.
>> But safety is built through consistency of action and and and apology doesn't show anything other than what was in the past. So if I'm looking for that bridge that we build with those consistent steps, right? consistency of action over time. This doesn't really help serve the purpose of what happened in the past because I need to see I I I I recently sat down with a wonderful, amazing, loving family who did the best that they could. Okay, mom yelled a little bit and dad showed a little bit more anger than maybe they are proud of or wanted to show. But it's time when the daughter says, "I like to hear that you understand what my letter back at two years ago was really about and I want to see you say you're doing the work. Prove it to me." And we've crafted a beautiful response that not only showed their daughter that they heard what she said and why she said it and what may have been her experience, but we then shared what she they're doing and how they can expect or how their daughter can expect them to show up and to know that if this is the work we're doing, then that level of safety is important for you, then this is what these are the things you should watch for us because then you'll know that our work is effective and you'll know that you can show up in a way that feels authent. authentic for you and that you know that we're not leading from a place of of judgment or as as this this daughter calls religious shaming. They show up differently in the religious world than their parents do.
>> It's powerful and I believe we haven't sent it yet. And I think we're going to hit send tomorrow and please hashem it should land with but wow what unbelievable work those parents did and I would stand in front of this daughter and say these are people who have done the work >> really >> and it's really really it's it's >> look this work is hard you you do it Joe you you understand the pain it's hard sometimes to separate the pain when you come home to your own beautiful family and >> um we we're so blessed to to to be the of of to to to serve people in a way that we hope gives them some some hope and some some some real uh hopefulness that >> Let me ask you a personal question. How did you guys get together and open up this organization?
>> That's a good question. Go ahead.
>> Okay. So, um I guess a while back when I decided to go into coaching, I took a course, a few courses. Um, and while I was doing that, I became friendly with Hadasa Waldman, >> who is the founder of Broken Ties and we started talking through the course and she recommended that I get involved with the Strange Family. She said, "I think it would be good for you based on, you know, what I know about you and some things you've gone through." I said, "Sounds good, but I'm not. I don't know anything about it." Uh, so she had me read some books and then she recommended that I reach out to Den Bl who's now known as Tuvia and I called him out of the blue and I said, "You don't know me.
Adasa gave me your number. Would you would you work with me and teach me the tools of how to how to work with these families? I'd really love to mentor with you."
>> So he created a course based on my reaching out to him. And after I finished with him, it took a while. We worked together about a year. He had enough faith in me to send me some of the clients that he didn't really want to work with, I guess.
>> All the tough ones. Yeah.
>> And he watched me through it and he guided me through it. And over the years, he started sending me more clients until I built up my own name and I started to get my own clients. And then a year ago when I was in Israel, we met up and we came up with this concept of working together because we we we have different talents >> and this is bigger than either one of us can handle individual individually. We could support each other like as Tovia said sometimes I'll be working with a client and say you know I think at this point you'd be great working with Tvia and vice versa to will be working with a client say I think you could use Hindi now and we're very comfortable to say I think this would be a good fit for you or they need you now and we we do that very much and >> there's a good chemistry >> yeah we support each other >> I I would like to say a lot but you know I've given I've I've received more from Hindi than I've given her even though I I was in a position of training.
>> Um she's helped me in my own life. Life is hard. Even when you have it all figured out and you know the tools and you know how to implement them, you're a great communicator. Uh life is hard. It there's a lot of challenge and you can't go at it alone, which is really the essence of of our organization. We are a non-judgmental um safe space for people to work through this challenge and to do it in a way that that they feel really supported.
This is this is what Hashem wants. I believe deeply that we must work together. Hindi and I spend too many hours talking to each other and um sometimes we have to ask for forgiveness from our families who who take a backseat to our midnight phone calls and to our you know 6 a.m. fire drills and the things that we need to do because >> um we've been both been through a lot in our own lives and and we care deeply about this work and and about the people that we work with. um they become part of us and we give them everything that we possibly can to empower them to feel good and to move forward.
>> What message to you do you have for families who are torn apart?
>> Yeah, I think the message is simple.
Take a breath.
Just breathe just for a moment and take a deep hard look inside of you. I think this piece about self-reflection is absolutely everything.
We make up a relationship, not me. If you're leading with me, it's arrogance.
You're leading with ego. And in order to change that me into the Wii, you have to lead with a level of humility. And humility starts with where can I make changes? How can I be the change that I want to see in the world? How can I show up the way I want my future self to show up and do it right now? But it's all about how I can contribute to the greater good. The wei in this is really really important. I heard uh RV I sat sat with him the other day and he spoke about the idea of of Hareni and how the Torah could have been given on any great mountain that existed. Um Mount Everest, the tallest peak of Kilimanjaro, but the Torah was given on Hari, the humble mountain. But don't be confused, right? Hashem could have also given us the Torah in the desert on flat ground, but he didn't. He chose a mountain. Be the mountain. Stand in your confidence, right? Stand up, but do it with calmness and patience and compassion and understanding. Be the humble mountain.
And I think if you can just start there, you're going to see things will begin to change for you. How they'll change only Hashem knows. But be open to it and believe that they will change if you allow them to and begin to see things differently.
>> I love it. I have a personal question for you, Hindi. Um, who believed in you when you needed it the most?
>> Well, that's a great question. Barak Hashem, I'm married for 38 years and I think I would have to say my husband.
>> Wow.
>> Uh, I was a computer programmer when we got married and I didn't love it that much. I told you my father gave me two options.
>> Yeah.
>> I chose programming and then when I gave birth to my children, I decided I'm going to be a stay-at-home mom. And I did that baram very happily for many, many years. And then when my youngest was I guess about seven, eight years old, I said, "Okay, I need I need to do something differently because I'm starting to feel a little empty like >> you need to give.
>> I need to be able to give back now." And my kids went through some challenges and I saw that there was space to do something a little differently. And I was learning through what my kids went through. And um I have to say after all the years of supporting my husband to be the bread winner and the earner, he's so happily uh you know that >> I do >> so proud of me, always believed in me and had faith in me to do something and he's my biggest supporter and my children. I have to say when I started to >> I know what you're going to say.
>> Yeah. Okay. When I started working with Tvia, right, he's still my mentor. Okay.
really is. He um I started to do this work. One of my children actually said to me, "Ma, I don't know if you're going to make a penny doing this. I have no clue. But you know what? I'm so happy you're doing it because you you're you're hearing us. You're you're relating to us in such a different way because I am fix it, mom.
>> I'm always the fixer." They start talking and I already have the solution.
>> You it improved yourself is what you're saying.
>> Yeah. Yeah. And when I heard that from my children, uh, I said, "Okay, you know what? They're my supporters, too." Um, I'm not going to lie, sometimes my my youngest children, you know, they don't get the same mommy as the older kids. I am a little busier and it is a little hard, but they're very proud of me and they're very supportive of me most of the time. But, as you said, I'm a mother and we have our struggles also. And I learned through these tools how to work through it and and I I still make mistakes. It's lovely. It's lovely.
You're doing great work.
>> Thank you.
>> Toia, who is your role model?
>> My role model, >> I've been blessed over the last seven years to have a lot of great reabum that have really served me well.
>> And I won't single one out specifically, but I will say that I've learned to live with the Torah and to do good work in the world. I also am challenged and not perfect and working through a lot each and every day. But Yiddish Kite has really served me and there's been a entire community of of of the Jewish people that have helped me and I have a young daughter who uh who has learned and grown in Yiddish Kite and it's been a unbelievable blessing. I was speaking of one of my rabbis this morning who was invited to sit on stage by something really big, one of these big events and sat in the audience. It's humble. It's it's Torah. Live with it and um and grow. I've also recently gotten engaged and um I feel a deep level of support by by my kala who sees me in doing this work >> and that is a huge blessing a huge blessing to be um accepted for for the journey that I've had and for the struggles that I've been through and um the emotionally expressive guy that I am that is probably what every woman wants but not always easy to to to to be involved with. Um, but I feel deeply honored and I can't wait to marry her in in August.
>> You're a grateful man.
>> Very grateful.
>> Excellent. Uh, message to take home today. Every person has struggles. Every family has hurt and every family has misunderstandings.
But behind the anger, behind the distance, um, there are human beings. Human beings who want to be seen and who want to be understood. The question is, what is this going to cost me? That's that that that's what that's what we have to ask ourselves.
We have needs and we want wants but what is this going to cost me? Toia and Hindi, I want to thank you so much for coming in and thank you for sharing your wisdom. You're doing God's work.
>> Thank you.
>> Thank you so much.
>> Thank you very much.
>> Really appreciate being here. Thank you.
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