Christian Mom Loves Reverse Missionary (feat Forrest Valkai)

Added: 2026-05-27

[00:00:00]I'm calling because I have been uh evangelical Christian most of my life but largely in part to the work of both of you guys and other people have started to maybe move away from that. My question though is for Paul. So you have often said that you can't believe in Christianity because it's not true but um there's also an argument that it can be useful. Do you think that there's a case to be made? Sorry if you can hear my dog. for someone remaining a Christian um even though like if they believe it's useful like because of its usefulness you view that like I get the impression sometimes from watching you and I I could be incorrect that you view that maybe as like an inferior reason for belief like would you think that that would be wrong to remain a Christian because of that or like what what's your take on that? Yeah. So well well articulated. I absolutely do view it as a inferior reason to believe that that it's useful and and I'll elucidate a little bit. If one wanted to be purely pragmatic about that and pick if if the reason you want to stick to one religion or other is entirely for pragmatic useful utility reasons, then you would shop around for the world view that you think is most useful. Now the problem with that problem quote unquote is that at that point you are personally creating criteria by which to evaluate the the religion.

[00:01:41]So for example, you might say, well that my criteria for usefulness is which one makes me most wealthy or which one causes the least harm or which one gives me relationships with my family, right?

[00:01:55]Like so all of a sudden it's a you're personally picking criteria by which you're deciding which is most useful, right? And that's that's at that point not only arbitrary, but also at that point I would argue you could you could just choose no religions and accept those criteria by which you're evaluating the religions as your goals and just make up your own way of living that adheres closely to those goals as opposed to having a middleman of any religion at all. Right? So that's only one way one might say it's useful. But if if it's ultimately to say, hey, it's it's cuz I value X, Y, and Z, and Christianity is a good way to get to X, Y, and Z, then I'm saying, well, why again, why would the middleman? Uh, another pragmatic reason might be that it puts me in it puts me in a certain community or it puts me in a maj in in like the US, for example, a majority position. And there is pragmatic reasons to want to be with the in-roup versus with the outroup cuz generally in society the out groupoup has a harder time than being in the inroup. That would be a separate pragmatic reason. And again, I consider that to be inferior to is it true?

[00:03:20]Because that's basically I mean, one can argue that there's a pragmatism there. And I I couldn't fault someone for staying a Christian or staying whatever they are because that's majority. But again, I'm I think I'm free to to say that's an inferior reason to say it. And that's I've now a lot I've forgotten my specific third point.

[00:03:42]So I've said a lot of words. Uh, do those things make sense to you before we move on to other parts of it?

[00:03:50]>> Yeah. No, they do make sense except that isn't that how most people choose almost any other thing in their life, right?

[00:03:58]Like I I guess I'm curious why like you you might choose a certain career or a certain partner even if that partner or career isn't the best one, right? But there might be other reasons why it would be good to do that. So would it be would those reasons be inferior or do do you see what I'm saying? Like is is religion its own specific category where the truth of it is like a predetermined factor that >> well that's great for other reasons.

[00:04:29]>> You're leading me perfectly as if on a script to what I was going to make my third point. So thank you. Uh so here's the other thing about >> so here here's the thing about why why it's different than in it is in a separate category is those things is that any religion if not true uh wants you to accept it as true and it and it you need to in order to accept it as true you need to adopt a flawed epistemology and or like science denial and or accepting things based on authority like just all the ways your epistemology might be might be compromised. You may accept fallacies and not recognize them.

[00:05:14]You're not thinking logically like all religions if not true require you to have a less than optimum epistemology.

[00:05:24]Would you agree with that?

[00:05:26]>> Yeah. No, I would agree.

[00:05:28]>> Okay. Now the second you are weakening your epistemology for one category of your life, you are also weakening your epistemology for other categories of your life in order to maintain this belief. So I I mentioned one for example and one that I was very guilty of was science denial and or you know discounting scientific endeavors because I needed to maintain that dinosaurs were on the ark 4,000 years ago. Right? So I had to >> I had to make false ideas about other things in order to maintain my poor epistemology. I also you know was I don't think I was the worst at this but I definitely would have you know treated you know queer people as as secondass citizens or at least making mistakes in their life. Like I would have there's all kinds of decisions that would have spun out for me and including maybe who I voted for all those kind of things. And I'm not saying who one should vote for, but I was basing them based on an epistemology that was bad. I was basing them based on ancient book is true. Therefore, I must vote for person Y. And that's just a bad reason to vote for person Y. Maybe person Y is amazing, but that's a bad reason to vote for them. So in my view, and this is why I in limited cases will even call myself an anti-theist, is that I think that all religions cause you to weaken your epistemology. And when you weaken your epistemology, you are you are cascading bad decisionm to other categories of your life.

[00:07:05]Does that make sense?

[00:07:08]>> Yeah. Know that that does make sense.

[00:07:10]Yeah. And I I would agree. I would say that.

[00:07:14]Something I've noticed in my change of thinking is that I realize that I so I never thought that like I find that I never believed in young earth creationism and it wasn't something I just didn't believe in it. Right. So so I'm wondering if >> like even though I would have called myself like a hardcore evangelical Christian like that wasn't an issue for me.

[00:07:38]I'm so is it possible that my like I guess what I'm trying to say is is it possible that your epistemology like like so you're saying that you have this untrue epistemology that was um affecting your view of other things but what if that was not the case? Do you know what I'm saying? I feel like there's levels of religion. Is it possible to in a religion >> you know?

[00:08:04]>> Right. But I think I was I think I was careful to say if you are accepting the religion as true, >> if you So I I get that there are people who sit in church and are aware actively aware I'm sitting here in church and that everything the pastor says is right? And that that they they they know that when they're going in, they know they're not going to believe any of it, but they like the club or whatever, right?

[00:08:31]>> So at that point, that person's pissed.

[00:08:33]My argument doesn't work for such a person. Their their epistemology is fine theoretically, but the the club has benefits that they like.

[00:08:44]>> Is that morally inferior? Because I find myself I don't know that that's inferior because everyone is going to value certain things. I am in a luxury.

[00:08:55]I I fully acknowledge that I am, you know, where I live. I am a male. I I'm you know I I have all kinds of advantages to let me value truth over pragmatism and I understand that that is an incredibly p privileged position. So I I would never say that valuing truth above those things is um like a moral betterness or whatever. But I would argue that it is an epistemological betterness. I would argue that it's if if if one is going to say what I value is truth and I would call truth as conforming to reality as adjudicated by predictive power then I think that I am then I think I am in a better position but no one is obligated to value truth above all things it's just not there are people whose lives are in danger at this very second for whom what is true metaphysically true is you know priority number 78 hate uh right like so >> right >> I hope I'm clear that way that like only if one is in a privileged position to put truth at that high level am am I am I going to go toe-to-toe and say I'm better or worse >> does that make sense >> no totally and I want to be careful too because I am also privileged like I can I could say I was not a Christian and my friends and family would be very confused but they would still accept me but I'm sure that There are people in you know other countries and other social circumstances where your religion is such a part of your social circumstance that to choose to be another religion would make it very difficult like for people in those circumstance like do you and and also because the religion is not just the pursuit of truth in that case the religion is like the conduit by which social contracts are made and by which relationships are formed like do you see its usefulness in that Would you say truth is a higher value than the usefulness of rel I mean there's a reason that we have had religion for thousands of years right do you think it would that it's because of that community usefulness >> I I do think that uh the the primary benefit that religion offers to anyone is a community and being part of an in-roup and anytime you're in the in-group versus the out groupoup there's benefits right so doesn't matter if you're I'm with the right lion or I'm with the write bonobo or whatever, right? Like there's always if you're in the inroup, it's better than not being in the inroup. Uh and that is why the I gave the example of someone who goes to church and is fully aware that like the metaphysical claims are are not true and they're not attempting to harmonize those. I I I put that person in a in a better category than the person who sits there and tries to make it work epistemologically. So, um, I think it's possible to go along to get along in a in a, you know, in a Middle Eastern Muslim community, for example, not trying to square any of it away, but pragmatically saying, well, I have to these are the these are the social conventions that we've adopted. you know, not dissimilar to the fact that, you know, sometimes I mow my lawn because I know that it's going to be easier in my community to have my lawn look somewhat like the other neighbors do, even though I think it's stupid, >> right? Like, so yeah, >> people can make pragmatic choices, but and I don't think they they're necessarily epistemologically compromised if they >> are aware within themselves that that's why they're doing it.

[00:12:33]>> Does that make sense? H am I wrong about that? feel like that selfawareness is maybe like the key like not trying to kid yourself to believe something what it is that you're doing >> right because that kind of person isn't using the religion to make cascading bad decisions >> right >> okay >> now >> this is this is my personal view I am still young at this so like if you have if you want to push back on me and say that I'm wrong about that or or there's ways I could improve my worldview on that. Uh, let me know. But that's kind of where I stand at the moment.

[00:13:12]>> Yeah. I mean, I I was I was curious to hear what your take on that was because I have heard especially I just watched your video on low bar bill and he >> I agree was terrible in his argument, but that it was kind of the argument he made like the he did kind of make this argument that you can believe in Christianity because it's true or you can believe in it because it's practical. whether I don't think he meant to believe that make that argument but that is kind of >> what he is the argument he made >> the of course the problem with his his view there is largely he he does various versions that he tries to dress up but they're Pascal's wager in in philosophical garb right like those are all just like well >> it's it's better not to burn in hell so I'm gonna right >> you know I don't care about this life and of course I think the other thing that again the other thing that >> if who are going along to get along. If you have a choice in that matter, I feel like you are short short changing yourself in the one and only life that we know we get, right? Like we have x number of days on this planet >> that in my view that's all you will get.

[00:14:19]>> And I regret how many of them I spent >> in a basement memorizing scripture and you know going to church four times a week. Like I I I I kind of wish I had some of that time back. So, you know, there's again cascading decisions that come out of this thing, but Pascal's wager is not I think you probably even would agree that Pascal's wager is not a good reason to believe.

[00:14:44]Um, >> no. Well, and also because he is saying he's not saying you believe it because it's pract or you accept Christianity because it's practical. He's saying you need to therefore accept the truth claims because it is practical, which is not which is different from the argument that I'm making. And um but I mean just to push back slightly on what you're saying about the one and only life, you know, I'm a homeschool mom in West Texas. So for my quality of life, it is better I would an argument I would make is that it would be better for me to participate in the in this social group because there are benefits of having this community that you know provided meals when my daughter was in the hospital and is you know has a regular reason for gathering which I think is really important but is might be difficult to find for me and my particular social you know standing in group in this time and place and area that I live in. Does that make sense? So for me >> it feels like it would improve the quality of life and I realize that that is a privilege.

[00:15:44]>> Does you know one one question there is like would would declaring yourself not to be a believer in the same things mean that you would lose those benefits?

[00:15:54]That's that's a question may and maybe may maybe it is maybe it isn't because right now >> yeah like with still >> accept membership in that group right membership of that group requires you to deny part of yourself at this point right so that's that's a that's kind of that's that is to a degree a self harm but also I feel like based on our discussion and I obviously I don't know you but this it seems like you might be in that category of people who you're choosing to be part of the club without trying to square the the capital T truth of the claims, >> right? Well, and I don't teach my children those things, right? Like like when I talk to my children, >> I tell them the truth of what I believe, but then part of me is like, is that selfish of me? Because then I send them to Sunday school and they're like, "My teacher said that that was wrong." So, I don't know. It's there's a >> there's something to be said for that.

[00:16:47]The reverse question >> reverse missionary. That's good, too.

[00:16:51]But um the >> well and that yes the reverse missionary that's my other question what is it would it not be beneficial were there to be more people in the inroup but maybe steering the inroup in a more positive direction for society um like instead of being let's vote for you know person Y because you know our I mean you're saying the book I grew up in a community where it's like no we have this prophetic word that we're supposed to like that was the way that I grew up >> and being like no instead of just you believing that God himself told us to do this. Let's look at the evidence. But it's a lot easier to steer the ship if you're inside it.

[00:17:28]>> To an extent, I've I've decided that it's easier to get people off the ship.

[00:17:34]>> Like that's my whole deal, >> right? Is is we'll just maybe don't be on the ship anymore. But again, that's all predicated on if you are explicitly there in your head, not trying to square the cap the the metaphysical claims as true, capital T, true, right? Conforming to reality. So, >> right, >> again, I I will I will give anyone a bit of a pass if they're epistemologically consistent and, you know, doing well that way, but still deciding that there are life benefits to being part of the club. So, it sounds like that's where you're at. So, I wouldn't look down on you that way because I if you're if you're voting for person X over person Y, I feel relatively confident based on this conversation that you've made that choice not because a book said so, but because you weighed the the the benefits. So you know in that case you know I have I have many friends in my life who are who are Christian family who are Christian and again that's that's what I'm primarily advocate for is let's work on epistemology and if you're if the reason why you're making this decision is sound then the rest of the stuff I can consider to be secondary tertiary issues but the the other thing I thing I was worried that you might be calling about was my most recent video where Jordan Peterson is advocating for Christianity entirely because it's true. Admitting that he doesn't think that there's any metaphysical truth to it, but that you know again that it's a that it's a opiate of the masses situation and let's harness this to ram through bad ideas.

[00:19:25]Right? So that's a whole separate category. I'm glad you weren't in that category, but when when I first saw the call screening thing come up, that was where I worried you were headed. So, I think you would agree with me that that is a wrongness. That's a that's a level of harm that is kind of Machavevelian, right?

[00:19:42]>> Yeah. Correct. And that was actually what I did watch that video and that did kind of almost make me question myself like and so and then in me choosing to, you know, pursue this path maybe of of you know, useful Christianity, is that selfish of me? Am I participating in something that is on its that is in in its entirety immoral? Because I believe that that is wrong. Right? He's using it. He knows he doesn't believe it's true, but he's using it to to harm people or to to manipulate people. I don't know that he would admit that it's harm, but definitely to control. But perhaps the the >> Sorry, Stephanie. I don't know if you >> Sorry, >> I was laughing at something Forest did on the screen. I'm guessing you you can watch it back later and and uh >> I was letting I was hoping it would be a I just I'm hung up on the term reverse missionary and I'm I've been sitting here imagining how that works.

[00:20:32]>> He's trying to do his Kamasutra version of a reverse what reverse missionary might look like. So anyway, >> yeah, >> bless your heart.

[00:20:40]>> Now we've we've been derailed. But anyway, >> but maybe the difference is that it's personful personal usefulness rather than trying to control or or project >> your um like your beliefs on other people, right? Like >> rather than trying to use it for control or harm. Right. So the other thing I would say that's inferior about the strategy of of of staying and trying to correct the ship from inside is that you continue you will continue to be a number for them. You will continue to they will be able to continue to go to government and say our congregation is of size X and we represent X Y and Z. If you are giving money which is typically a requirement you are giving money to causes that may well be doing more harm than you would want them to do. You know, those are all factors that each person needs to weigh in, but they are they are potentially problematic, right?

[00:21:39]By just by even being in the pews, you are giving them some power that maybe they don't reserve. So, >> yeah, that I hadn't considered that.

[00:21:48]That is an important consideration. I tend to give my money to other progressive Christian causes that are not my church, but I don't know.

[00:21:55]Probably makes me a bad churchgoer.

[00:21:58]>> Yeah, fair enough. Is was that enough to chew on? Was or did you have any other Did you want to push back on me on anything else? And and did Forest uh other than his insight on the Kamautra uh want to weigh in?

[00:22:13]>> I just wanted to add to the conversation >> with the reverse missionary.

[00:22:20]>> No, you can watch that.

[00:22:22]>> Sorry.

[00:22:22]>> Okay.

[00:22:23]>> I'm being boring and I don't have more again. you let you let me uh talk about things that I'm passionate about and think about a lot. So, I appreciate that.

[00:22:34]>> Thank you so much for your time.

[00:22:35]Appreciate it.

[00:22:35]>> Yeah. Thank you.

[00:22:39]>> All right. Take care, Stephanie. Good call. Bye-bye.