Andrew Tate vs. Guardian Feminists: Evolutionary Psychologist Explains What's Happening

Added: 2026-05-26

[00:00:09]Well, hello everyone. I'm joined today by Paula Wright. um who I've uh kind of noticed on Twitter and elsewhere uh who like many people myself included has somewhat had enough of uh let's say gender wars slop is the best way to describe it. Um and you know I think we have quite a lot on the uh let's just say the male perspective on on this issue uh you know in and around these sorts of spheres. So, I thought it'd be interesting to uh to discuss uh Paula's experience with gender war stuff uh etc. So, yeah, I mean uh Paula, first of all, for people who don't for people who won't be aware of you, say a bit about yourself and then we can talk.

[00:01:00]>> Um okay, I'm Paula Wright. I used to be sexy isn't sexist on Twitter, but I've changed my name to Paula Wright. that was named after a kind of standup thing I did uh and an essay I did on the gender wars uh about 10 years ago now.

[00:01:17]Um yeah, I'm a evolutionary psych psychologist uh but I'm not in academia and I'm not um you know dogmatic in that sense either. I'm kind of um quite philosophical on on certain issues. uh just looking at just looking at things from a kind of realist perspective basically and just trying to work out >> um you know what the f is going on.

[00:01:47]>> So I mean I don't know where to start this really because I I feel like gender war stuff has been going on possibly even longer than the wider culture wars.

[00:01:59]you know, men, the basic frame of men versus women, um, pretty much as long as I can as long as I can remember, even going back into the myths of the, you know, even in the 90s, there was, you know, Spice Girls and Girl Power and all this and all this sort of stuff and the new lads. I was a I I lived I was a teenager in the new lads period, >> you know, and stuff like that. Yeah.

[00:02:25]>> Men behaving badly and all that sort of stuff. Um, and so yeah, it's been a little bit confusing to navigate because coming out of the 90s, you were kind of given a bit of a permission to in the Blair era, ironically, you were kind of given permission to be a little bit of a lad and also a little bit, dare I say, like ironically chauvinistic in that era. Mhm.

[00:02:50]>> There was a lot of kind of ironic chauvinism that went on. But by the same token, uh, you know, certainly in my youth, right, in that period, um, girl, there was this such a thing as the lad.

[00:03:02]Do you remember that? It was like ladd.

[00:03:05]Yeah. And I mean, I was a lad probably in that time. Yeah.

[00:03:09]>> Yeah. Girls drinking smoking. Yeah. But I mean, people forget like it it wasn't unheard of for, you know, to be out with a group of girls and they might like smack a boy on the bum and stuff. I feel like the youth I feel like the girls now don't do that sort of thing as much.

[00:03:28]Like I feel that that strain of lettism kind of kind of came came and went.

[00:03:34]>> Well, it was more kind of fun. It was more fun. It wasn't as it is now. is it which I see it as a kind of chauvinism but I see the rise of chauvinism in both men and women at the minute back then it was as you say kind of like ironic tongue and cheek uh the the the post feminists of that time you know the the um the Guardian journalists were in despair about it I kind of I was doing my dissertation at the time and I did a dissertation about this and about um about feminism in the media and how they'd kind of just been assaulted by this new par paradigm of um ironic ladism and uh the the ladet as well and there was a book just out at the time called female chauvinist pigs by a woman called Ariel Levy. Uh and so that was all the rage at the time. Um so yeah they they were in despair uh that you know feminism had well it was that it was post feminism.

[00:04:33]was the end of feminism and now kind of but then intersectionality came in in the tens and um changed everything.

[00:04:42]>> Yeah. And it I mean one one of the ways that it changed that I can remember I mean I I was in academia for a long time so I saw all of this up close was that that kind of uh slightly ironic humor after a certain time was met with a kind of poof face puritanical puritanical thing which I could never get on with. It doesn't drive well with my I like to have a mess about. I can, you know, I can I like people who are authentic and I can have a laugh with them and so on. And there was a period there where it was a very pure strain of what I can only describe as a kind of pure puritanical dogmatic. You couldn't really have a laugh with some of these more kind of sternfaced feminists.

[00:05:27]>> No. Well, they they kind of took off they kind of took the the medical what what what what the med what the um kind of disability kind of rights people had been doing during that time and then applied that to feminism and then out of that came woke and uh or or that kind of thing. Yeah. Kind of became an identity rather than just something you um you know agreed with or didn't agree with.

[00:05:51]And I well I mean I'll tell I can remember right in the height right in the height of me too. I was at a bar in where was I? Was I in it was either in New Orleans or Atlanta, Georgia. I think I was in Atlanta, Georgia for an academic conference and I was sitting with two or three female feminist academics and um this was like in the height of me too. Okay. So you can and I said because I I've never been one to like hide my I would just always speak candidly and I was at this bar with them and I said look the thing is the problem not only when I was a not only for the kids now but for when I was a teenager as well is that since the 60s men and women have been expected to kind of find their own way and they're given quite literally no guidance whatsoever. ever.

[00:06:46]There used to be a set of courting rituals. There were manuals on how to behave like a lady and how to be a gent and how like there were literally manuals on the courting process in in Iran where my where my dad is from before getting married the cup like there's all sorts of hurdles that have to be crossed like the two families have to meet and everybody has to be sure that you know so there's a whole set of kind of codes and conventions before two people get together. Whereas in the 90s when I grew up, it was literally just whoever you get off with in the nightclub. And you know, I mean, I remember in my town, there was a there was a mule on the kind of bit of artwork on the on the club on the on the local nightclub wall and it just said jackpot with two with two with two fingers pointing there. And you know, basically if you got off with a girl, you that was your jackpot and you were on the jackpot wall. And you know, that's how most people met back in the day. That's how like literally most people got together.

[00:07:55]Well, you can then imagine if you if if the rules are there are basically no rules and the only thing you've got to go on is literally like Spice Girls and Oasis and you know, most parents were very liberal, just going to let you go out or what, whatever. you're not get you're basically not getting any guidance whatsoever. And uh I remember one of them said to me um you know you're not scared to be a radical thinker are you? And I was like is there anything I just said radical? I thought it was just basic common sense. But I still think this is a problem now. I still think that even after you know all of this time young people have even less of a sense of what they got. I mean, they've got certain dictats that come down from, you know, these these types of feminists, but they're so like ridiculous that they get they they basically end up being ignored. And so there it's like there's no framework at all. So I feel like young people are just being asked to figure it out. Um and and it's weirdly resulted in the two genders like coming apart and >> yeah, >> people not having sex and not even having babies and things like that. So >> well there is a structural thing to that if you you know because ever since kind of education opened its doors to this what was supposed to be liberal feminism of course you know that's a Trojan horse they once the doors were open and then all of the note cases came in intersectionality radical feminism all of this kind of thing and it went into our schools and it started telling women that they were uniquely vulnerable.

[00:09:31]started telling boys that they were uniquely toxic. Um, and how to kind of um and that basically having well having a relationship, you know, having normal kind of, you know, relationships like between peers rather than, you know, go girls going out and having and meet and pretending to be like 18 when they're 15 and going in the bars and meeting men. rather than having uh relationships with their peers in school and experimenting with peers as as generally every generation has ever done. Um they they are just basically just estranged from each other and even more so now that's never changed. The the messages that are going in and out of schools, you know, with they're showing adolescence in schools even though it's a pile of absolute rubbish. Um and and of course none of none of this girl girls are being told constantly you are you are vulnerable you are a victim. Uh but you also can be strong and do anything you want as long as you avoid boys as long as you avoid the trap of be having a family.

[00:10:41]>> Um >> yeah. So so once you're vulnerable but also you're like Ray from Star Wars or >> Stark or something. There's a lot of actions now.

[00:10:50]>> Yeah. those there those adverts for like sanitary towels when they can do it do do everything but then they can climb mountains you know they can do do all these things but then then the next day in I don't know hello there'll be a there'll be an op-ed about kind of like should we have days off periods it's like make your [ __ ] your mind up come on >> so when when this conversation you know I listen to a lot of LBC for my sins in the car LBC radio I know it's uh >> you But I kind of I find it a good way to check in with what you know normies are talking about. And whenever this topic comes up within I would say within minutes the conversation turns around to being mainly about Andrew Tate. Uh I don't know and I I don't know why that is but well I mean I do because he's got a very large following but the conversation then is like you know there'll be some MP on there or there'll be some like expert and they'll say well look clearly uh the culture is letting young men down. We but you know we want positive messages to re uh to reach young men because at the moment they're being captured by toxic men like Andrew Tate.

[00:12:06]So, you know, when we talk about gender wars slop, uh, in a way, this does seem like something like it. On the one extreme end, you've got Andrew Tate telling men to, um, you know, work out, become become kind of like these almost like hedonistic pimps, something like this, right? Um, and then on the other on the other extreme end, you've got like the blue-eyed feminist. And then the kind of conversation that happens on LBC is how do we how do we rescue how do we stop losing the young men to Andrew Tate? So, what's uh I mean before we even get into what happens online, let's just deal with the like the big ticket normie conversation with LBC. How I mean if you were calling into LBC what would you say?

[00:12:59]>> Well I used to go on talk radio a about 10 years ago when Matthew Wright used to be on it.

[00:13:06]>> Uh we he would ring me up and say this things in the in the news and stuff and I think around about I think I actually knew Andrew Tape when he had hair.

[00:13:13]>> Yeah you online.

[00:13:15]>> This was about like 10 15 years ago and he even tried flirting with me once. Um but um but I think you know obviously they're picking Andrew Tate because he's he's the most ostentatious. He's he's the most um I guess if you were just going to like pick somebody who's the most grotesque version of the of the manosphere red pill kind of thing. Uh the kind of most lowbrow um immediate kind of just it's going to be him. And it's like it's like Trump has to be Hitler because if he's not Hitler then you then you know you have to it's it there's a there's a dialectic going on where it's kind of this is this is what the worst is which is why you have to come back to us which is what the di you know the discussion was about Trump.

[00:14:01]He's Hitler so you can't vote for him so you have to vote for us. It's it's kind of like there's no there's no in between. And of course Andrew Tate isn't Andrew Tate's a Muslim. He had he practices um you know he's basically got harim. So, what he's showing online, I think he's got absolute contempt for his male audience actually because what he's showing is I've got I've I've got like I don't know how many wives he's got or girlfriends or whatever like that, but it's certainly not uh in a operational sex ratio kind of terms. He's taking partners away from average or even or even non- average men. He's kind of pooling all of all of these resources, showing it ostentatiously and going, "Oh, well, you can be like me." Well, you know, the math doesn't add up there. All men can't then just pull 20 women around themselves. You know, some men, even more men then are going to be left with absolutely no mates, no choice in the mating market. So he's pushing a kind of um this picture which is completely false that that it's like freeing what it's it's it's really kind of like he's lying to people's faces and saying >> with a with and winking >> uh and saying that that he that it's a good thing when actually I think he's got just contempt for everybody men and women really. So, so I mean one of the things I mean having tracked I've never really been you know in the manosphere or in that kind of like I've always but I' I've been aware of it the whole you know the whole time because it's >> I guess a strand.

[00:15:35]>> I remember uh there's a chap called Vox Day uh who made something back in the day which was very influential called the psychosexual hierarchy.

[00:15:47]Right? You now even if you haven't heard of Vox Day, you'll have heard of these terms. He said, "Listen, you're basically as a man, you're either an alpha or a beta, right? Or you're um or you're a you're a what was it? The the delta or the gamma or you could be a sigma like me, right?

[00:16:09]That was the that was the the whole thing. And that regardless of whether you've heard him or not, that basic idea I think has been very influential and it's been incredibly limiting and dispiriting to a lot of >> young men. Uh, you know, I'm I'm kind of interested in the power of people to transform themselves and improve and things like that. Um, but if you tell someone, listen, you're basically like this class of man, right?

[00:16:43]>> You're you're a gamma or you're like a you have a you basically have no chance.

[00:16:48]All of the all of the women will go to the Andrew Tates because he's an alpha, >> right? Whereas you you're going to be and and in the even more toxic end of it, it's you know there's this whole there are other notions like for example if you're a beta then your wife or your girlfriend will inevitably cuckold you with the alpha and you're basically like kind of you know you're there to pick up the damaged goods type thing and all of this you can see so on the one hand you've got the end the pickup artist side of it and the Andrew side of it.

[00:17:24]But then on the other end, you have, you know, what they call the the incel culture with with young men who basically decide that because of all of these things, because of these hard truths that come out of evolutionary psychology, that, you know, they've got no option but to check out, become an incel, to never have, you know, I'm never gonna have a girlfriend. It doesn't matter how much I work out or anything, I'm never gonna get there. or or even in the absolute doomsday scenario, I might as well just become a woman. I might as well just become a a tune, you know? So, >> I mean, first of all, as an evol you you said you're into kind of evolutionary biology psychology.

[00:18:05]Is there any actual factual basis to all this stuff or because because I think it's dam I think it's actually damaging for people to get into that mindset because you're basically saying >> you're you're basically making a self-fulfilling prophecy >> in a way. So >> yeah, it's it's what it is. It's kind of like the manosphere, the red pill community kind of heard a few I don't know um things things from evolutionary psychology and um then rather than looking you know at the detail and the cross tabs and all of those kinds of things that you do in these studies um or looking at you know meta analyses of like was it replicated or this kind of thing. Uh so they just they take it and they run with it because it fits their ideology. I mean the red pill, the man manosphere uh you know incelss are such a tiny group you know and they've always existed.

[00:18:58]They've always been like autistic men who are shy and don't want to go out and you know my my colleague William um Costello is kind of the main um uh person who studies incelss at the minute. Um and you know he's found out they're not a danger to anyone. they're more a danger to themselves. They're a tiny community. They're not white.

[00:19:18]They're mostly uh ethnic minorities. Uh and you know, the it's a moral panic that's that's going on around in cells.

[00:19:28]But the thing about alpha, beta, you know, human mating is these are these are all terms that come from a bastardization of kind of lots of things like evolutionary biology, evolutionary anthropology, primatology, all this kind of thing. Humans are humans. They're not chimps. They're not gorillas. They're not pygmies as, you know, feminists like to kind of look at pygmy chimps because they're they have sex with everybody all of the time and try to kind of make those kinds of parallels. We're not pygmy chimps either. We're not bonobos.

[00:19:56]Um, humans are humans and actually the evolutionary biology points very specifically to us not being a promiscuous or um, you know, wildly uh, you know, [ __ ] species really. Uh, there there are certain biological markers that that species like that like say chimps chimp chimps chimp females kind of uh, mate with loads of males, right? And what happens there uh you'll notice I've written something under my substate.

[00:20:28]You'll notice chimps have massive balls, right? And that's because they because of uh sperm competition that happens inside the reproductive tract of the female. Now that the the male chimps release so much sperm in order to wash out whatever was in there before. Okay.

[00:20:46]>> Yeah. because that's what that's what that's the the the adaptations that that that have grown with chimps in that promiscuous uh psychosexual you know adaptations humans don't have massive balls they don't need to wash out you know that kind of thing they have kind of like they have long they have much bigger penises than chimps or anything gorillas on the other hand who are who have harims and uh the the women you know are are kept very very tightly within those groups. Uh, gorillas have tiny balls because they, you know, they they literally don't have to fight. There's no sperm competition going on inside the female reproductive tract at all.

[00:21:28]>> There's no such thing as that. They they they're massive though because they have to fight. They fight they fight physically rather than the competition happens physically outside the reproductive tract. Whereas in uh promiscuous species, the competition happens inside the female reproductive tract, which means lots of sperm, sperm competition, that kind of thing. So, you know, just take it's like it's like any kind of slop you want to take. It's kind of like a meme, an idea that's really catchy. It catches on and it um unfortunately, yeah, it kind of people um get stuck in in in in the algorithm. And there are two and there are people like there are feminists who are going to exploit female fear which is again an adaptive response to you know that they are vulnerable to certain things and men and and I think the uh men's men's rights most of men's rights activists red pill people all this kind of thing are actually exploiting male fear of uh cuckoldry which to a certain extent is an is allegoricus or you know um the same as a woman's fear of of rape to a certain extent. It kind of violates her choice, her reproductive choice. It messes up her uh future in so many ways as does coupledry in men. That's probably the male, you know, the same thing that that men adaptively are going to have that fear. Um that's the worst thing that can happen to you in an evolutionary sense. It's it's just going to completely wipe your evolutionary uh legacy away. And so we got both of these sides as you will just completely exploiting very primal um predispositions of human psychology.

[00:23:14]>> Yeah. I mean when I think of the young men the thing I worry about is that it's just demoralizing. It's a demoralizing um I mean everybody talks about identity these days, right? But on a on a personal level, if you're identifying right, if you identify with, you know, oh, there's this hierarchy and I'm the loser on it and I'm I'm basically guaranteed to be cuckolded or something like that's your basic view of yourself.

[00:23:44]That can't be healthy for anybody to have that as their as their as their kind of identity. So I mean I've uh you know I've done my own I mean it's not the main thing I do but here and there I have tried to uh push back on this sort of thing and uh you know I but I I mean I encourage I encourage men not to um not to watch pornography because I think that's one of the one of the real um avenues through which a lot of this poison is actually snuck in. It's actually snuck in because you know if you think about the way somebody's uh identity can be rewired or these like images that you keep on replaying over and over and over again.

[00:24:33]I I'm I'm convinced that there is some link. I mean again I've done no studies.

[00:24:38]It's just an intuition I've got that there's a link between certain types of strange porn that people are into these days and >> porn >> many of the many of the uh the so-cal modern pathologies that people have >> and the explosion of uh you know not not the not necessarily the LGBT bit but all the other stuff like the 52 I mean so much of it must be reinforced in some level.

[00:25:08]uh inform but >> to how many >> Yep. Even if you don't go there, sorry that there there's also just the basics of when young men and one young women meet and let's just say strange expectations that come from too much watching of this sort of thing, you know. But anyway, go on, Paul. Sorry.

[00:25:30]Well, I'm just I just wonder about how much of uh the new pathologies are actually just the same old pathologies just kind of being streamed through different mechanisms. Uh and comparing yourself to other people obviously is something that humans have always done and it's always been a source of either motivation, I want to be like that, or demoralization.

[00:25:53]And social media certainly is a mechanism that well I mean we've never we've never before in history you know had um such a wide social network you know I think of it almost like um you know it's like social diabetes it's um you you know we grew up and kind of maybe had like an extended community of maybe like never past 100 people like in the in the history of you know of the human species. Um, and now, um, it it's like it's like the salt and the fat, uh, issue, the the evolutionary mismatch we have with them now. Now, now now there's a glut of salt and fat and carbohydrates, and there's a glut of sociality, but it's not real, and it's um likely very unhealthy. Um, so compare, I mean, women women's social media is all like that. It's uh they're they're scrutinizing each other physically.

[00:26:59]Um in a way that men don't do. Um and this kind of social grooming thing happens with the likes. The like is everything. Even if you don't like it, you have to be seen to like something or or something like that. And and what's Yeah. And and what's happening with men?

[00:27:18]I think definitely it is it's demoralizing for both of them. Um I don't know about uh pornography. I'm kind of um obviously I think some what I what I think the data says is that people who are already predisposed to kind of violence and stuff like that, watch violent pornography and watch their kink and and things like that and are more more likely to kind of pass that on. But there's also a kind of but there's also um studies that show in the west though only in the west I I I've asked just to maybe see if we can get some data from non uh you know non-western countries because I think c the cultural element that definitely goes with this but in the west when uh more porn basically equals less sexual assault on the street. So there's there seems to be like a mechanism going on where men's um the the release that they need and if that is true uh then you know what will happen and this is you know obviously predict predictions kind of like hope hopefully show show the meat of any kind of theory if we've I think we've seen something like after after facial ID uh you know on the internet they've seen a drop in like 60% of uh pornography use. I'm just wondering if there's actually then going to be a 60% rise in sexual assault on the street, wouldn't it?

[00:28:44]>> So, I mean, are we going to are we going to see that that drop of watching porn, but then that rise of that? But so, I mean, I'm I'm not kind of morally um fussed about about the pornography kind of thing. I I understand that people um are worried about what is demoralizing and what is kind of um clapping young people's brains and we need to definitely study it and we need to definitely uh you know find the key um causes of that but uh but yeah just just finding out just just actually delving into that and finding the real causes because obviously like I said what happens if you you're ideologically kind of attached to a um to an anti- porn But then suddenly you implement that and then sexual assaults is the is the is the consequence.

[00:29:34]>> Yeah, I I hadn't really considered that.

[00:29:36]I mean obviously they're they're probably uh the guys who are going to do sexual assault are probably a you know a sharp tail or whatever sharp >> and they're all the same as well. It's like people think every sexual assault is different person. They're not. It's the same people committing the same the sexual assault. My I guess my concern is not with that guy, but like with the median guy or the the person who should have confidence in life, but they're getting it like literally. I mean, there's there's ether I mean, I don't want to get into it too much, but >> you know, there's um various uh you know, you can talk about like male po potency. It's going to sound like weird, but if you spend all your time doing that, you won't have the kind of vitality to just go out there and do stuff. It's kind of like it's kind of like saps. It's like a vampiric source that >> your creativity. So, I I view it in that way.

[00:30:34]>> Uh but you're probably right that from a societ from a like a sociology point of view, >> maybe that it has some other strange >> utility. But but yeah, like I say, I think west it might will work because to put it you know western men are civilized and we and our governments don't use sexual uh crimes as a way to maintain control you know in I've seen all these things about the burka and things like that you know women have to wear burka in the Middle East and those kinds of countries because if they don't then the culture fac the culture kind of facilitates their sexual assault by by by the men there. That doesn't happen here or at least it shouldn't. You know, you even see Muslim women who would not be going out without um uh somebody with them like their brother or their father. They'll wear they will in the UK they'll wear they'll wear their burka, but they'll they'll go out by themselves. They'll go out with their push chair and go through Primark and do all their shopping and stuff like that.

[00:31:37]They wouldn't be allowed to do that without a male relative um watching them in another country. And that's that's a facet of, you know, because it's safer.

[00:31:46]It's much safer here where it used to be in >> interesting. So, I'm going to play my uh ad a second. I have a sale on at the moment. It's uh 25% off all my courses.

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[00:32:54]>> Who's your model?

[00:32:55]>> Uh I I don't actually know. I just thought I saw I saw it and I thought I was entertained by his kind of 70s swavveness. Um or his 80s more 80s style really, wasn't it? Um but uh okay so one of the things that I've seen during my lifetime is is a is a message pushed on young girls and certainly was when I was a teenager in the era of the Leette but I don't think this has fully gone away.

[00:33:24]Yes, you have the the narratives of vulnerability and women are at risk, blah blah blah, but at the same time I I would say alongside that or almost overriding that sometimes is this idea that girls can be like men. And when I say girls can be like men, right, let's just go back to the 90s a second. You know, when I was going out, we would we would sit around and it would be, you know, they were lads. Every hole's a goal. you know, if you if you pulled that was that was uh considered an achievement on the night out, all that sort of stuff.

[00:34:01]Men can I mean, I've always believed that men can handle that in a way that I just fundamentally have never believed that women can and that I have never known a girl who has been promiscuous who's been happy with themselves because of it. they actually like regardless of their upbringing, it seems to be a cause of some sort of distress if they're doing that sort of beh, you know, I've seen the stats that young people are having less sex, but I've also seen other stats that dating apps and things like that have actually led to some kind of Andrew tate effect where you know it's re it's actually super easy for a girl to get a date go out and have sex if she wants it like that because this is another thing I've always believed that it might be hard for a man to pull but for a girl to pull she just has to wink at the right guy and you'll sleep with her right that's why I've always thought it'd be super easy to be gay because you get have tons of sex right because there's no the limiter there's no limiter there's nobody saying no it's the girl who says no right >> yeah she gets Yeah, exactly. So, but so I I I still want, you know, and you mentioned the Guardian earlier on. There's always some article in the Guardian with some like 40-year-old female journalist trying to argue that she goes out, she's she's never been happier, you know, she's happy to be alone and play the field and all this sort of stuff and Sex in the City and all the rest of it.

[00:35:44]And I'm I I've ne like this seems to be a feminist kind of a >> Yeah. Well, 40 year olds kind of are less going to be less worried or are going to be less kind of have that they're going to be late. They're not going to have that young um girl's predisposition to um you know be looking for a mate who will uh commit. Right? 40-year-old women have had a lot of sex already, right? Uh they probably had their kids, you know, and this is why on dating apps, you know, um mils and young men hook up ver very often because they're both they're both just looking for something quite um you know, casual and shallow. Um and then there's young men. Uh sorry, young women. Um, yeah, they can they can they can hook up with somebody you want, but but that's not actually what they're looking for. They're looking for you can say women are the gatekeepers of sex, but men are the gatekeepers to relationships to to actual um and that's that's something again that that the manosphere kind of gets from evolutionary psychology and then runs away with it like ridiculously. Uh, but it is fundamentally true. It's said that you know um for millions of years you know if women didn't uh choose men who were good providers and who um and who would just were good mates if you know um as a you know as a species we would have evolved into something completely different. we might have become chimps or something like that and uh we wouldn't have walked on two legs because you know um that make that makes us vulnerable as well. Um if if you have to carry a child all of the time because you haven't got a mate who's going to protect you or a community that's going to protect you and stuff like that.

[00:37:43]There are so many different variables going going on in kind of like how and why we evolved to the to be who we are today. Um, but there's there was a study done a long time ago by my mentor Anne Campbell who it's called the the the morning after and this was in the 90s.

[00:37:58]She did it as well when during all of this lad kind of time and it's been uh reproduced kind of loads and loads of times and basically there are socioexual women that's a kind of personality thing. There are some women who love uh lots of sex with lots of different people and are not interested in uh but they're a minority. They're definitely a minority in women. The majority of women uh don't have those kind of predispositions and and these studies find, you know, that um no matter what the no matter what the rhetoric is uh pushing women to go out and have lots of different promiscuous sex with lots of different people, they always always waiting for that call the next day. They're always waiting and they're always disappointed when it never comes.

[00:38:48]And then another mechanism kicks in uh that kind of um tells them you know well it doesn't matter you know it's uh you know go girl you know and all and then the cultural messengers and selfdeception especially kicks in. Um and the girls go out together and they or they and they all commiserate and they they [ __ ] about men and then they'll do it again. And of course alcohol is massive a massive kind of >> thing for that as well.

[00:39:17]Yeah. Um I mean we to my mind the conversation we've had so far past 40 minutes or so nothing but common sense talk by by both of us in my mind even in where we've had some you know slight areas of disagreement.

[00:39:33]What's stopping these sort of conversations happening like in the mainstream like why why doesn't LBC have this sort of chat or why why isn't it discussed in the Guardian in this way?

[00:39:42]What what are the what is what is the barrier to having these sorts of >> sort of discourse?

[00:39:50]>> Slop brings ads.

[00:39:56]It's it's you can monetize slop and endlessly dish it out and and people will endlessly eat it.

[00:40:05]Offering a solution is is offering a kind of like it's the end. It's the it's the death of a business plan.

[00:40:13]What what were some solutions look like >> to the basic problem?

[00:40:17]>> Honestly, um where's my I lost my mouse. Um criy I've looked you know I mean the thing is for I've done a lot of research on female interexual competition which basically kind of uh shows how women compete with other women and you know get them to make really stupid choices that harms their you know fitness their psychology and and we'll see and and we'll also see that on men and male intersection ual competition.

[00:40:54]There's always more competition within a group than there is without. So there's more competition within groups of men and groups of women than there is actually between men and women. Okay?

[00:41:04]Know that's that's something that's that's constantly just um lied about because the the two ideologies that you know that people people are making a lot of money in the podcast sphere and in new media. Um just it's like soap opera. It's like uh they're like they're like it's like you know that you know that the magazines that you that you used to get that used to have all these crazy kind of stories uh these old old ladies magazines that they used to have. Um and then they'd have oh my my my father raped my baby in uh I just the most ridiculous kind of stuff that you could ever have. and it and it and it's just like rubbernecking on the worst kind of things possible.

[00:41:52]That's kind of that's just what the podcast sphere is now. Either whether it's political or about sex or about um health or about supplements or about anything. It's every single the the layers of just slop on top. I I I just and everybody's just consuming it and and and especially the ones that are kind of dressed up as uh slightly intellectual like the trigonomet trigonometry lot >> and stuff like that. Um you know, anything that goes on there is already kind of like mainstream normal. There's nothing, you know, new that goes on there that's that's ever going to kind of like change anybody's anybody's, you know, mind about anything. Um I haven't write worth working on a book called the rise of female chauvinism but I'm definitely going to have to um put another chapter in you know about the the concurrent rise of male chauvinism now because obviously they're all coming together and just about um I don't know just maybe getting offline would help but I mean how do you do that because the algorithm is uh specifically designed to stop people doing that. Um um it's going to take a lot of brains coming together um to because I I think you know I think a lot of the I think basically we think that this is just um yeah I think I think this is kind of like a strategy of elite elite powers.

[00:43:41]Okay. um pushing this stuff out there, you know, uh like um pushing groups out there. They've given them permission to exercise kind of limited power within the boundaries set by these elites. Like feminists are allowed to kind of like or they believe that they wield authority, but then in actually they're just executing delegated tasks. Okay. So they so they're they're actually on a leash.

[00:44:05]They're on a really long leash, but it's long enough for them to use as a whip.

[00:44:09]Uh >> and >> I think well the first thing I would do the first thing I would do is get feminism out of every single institution we have. We have to get rid of feminism because that's the mechanism that's the stream that everything flows through.

[00:44:28]Do you so if I understand you correctly, you're suggesting that in some way the powers that be actually push gender wars actually they actually want this situation as opposed to solving the problem or getting you know you said it's going to take brain power but that's assuming that >> to them it's not a problem. It's they're doing it's doing exactly the way it's doing everything it was meant to do. uh and and it's happening on so many different levels just it happens to be that um obviously sex is a big seller >> but eventually it is going to be a big I mean it is going to be a big problem because it's causing a demographic or it's one of the causes of a demographic collapse >> not just in Britain across the world >> a collapse in birth rate >> no yes I yeah I know uh well it's c causing a collapse in the the birth rate not it's not for elites they're having more babies Um but yeah I mean I again I'm I'm I'm working on a um research project um which was just accepted by the Danube Institute to look at one mechanism on on that about how we bring um men and women just at the minute the um the kind of the fertility kind of pipeline is you go you go to school, you go to uni, you um get a job, then you have children, right? This is about trying to kind of you go to school, you go to uni.

[00:45:58]I'm trying I'm trying to fit the fertility uh side in there so that people can actually get their education and start families at the same time because the the problem with the demograph demographic collapse is that >> it's not necessarily that they're not having enough B. If they started earlier, they would have more babies. by the time they start in their 30s, they're never going to catch up that lifetime fertility potential. So, it's really it's not about it's not about taxation, it's not about, you know, throwing money on housing and all those things can happen at the same time, but it's basically just getting men and women into the same environment at their optimal age and creating the creating the conditions where, you know, nature can happen.

[00:46:45]Well, the people won't remember this, but I mean, you will if you grew up in the 90s like I did, but uh if you were a teenager in that era, >> this was actually something that I would blame the conservatives for more than anyone else, which is the extent to which they absolutely demonized, and I mean demonized, >> teenage mothers and single mothers and the, you know, all the Vicky Pollard and all of that cuz I remember when I was uh, you know, in six form, so 17, girls were old enough to have babies by that point. You know, I had a girlfriend, long-term girlfriend. Um, but people were just terrified of having a baby. I was terrifi personally was like, you know, absolutely terrified. Like triple contraception, you know, it's just like you take no precautions whatsoever.

[00:47:32]>> And I remember there was a girl in our year who had a b who had a baby. Okay.

[00:47:37]and the reaction which should have been like a joyous thing for her but I remember everybody thinking like oh my god what she's done she's ruined her life and all this sort of stuff and I'm like well >> you know she's probably perfectly happy now she's probably got like know she started you know she's but starting at that age 17 18 is actually >> grandmother at 40 >> but that but that's actually like now it's seen as something to like Angela Raina is a grandmother in in her 40s as well but at one point that was just biologically normal It's actually the anomaly to start in your 30s or or whenever.

[00:48:10]>> Oh yeah.

[00:48:11]>> But that has been what everybody's been pushed into, you know, including me, including practically everybody I know started their family in their 30s.

[00:48:19]>> But you remember that that there was there was an idea going around that young girls were getting pregnant just to get a council house.

[00:48:25]>> And today that would be like >> so.

[00:48:30]>> Mhm. and give them an indigenous woman getting pregnant to h have a council house to bring up her her family and what would people see wrong in that today?

[00:48:43]So yeah, it did have a it did that that really I would say killed the idea for a generation how hard I think it was John Major's government to be honest and I don't even know if it came from the top but it was very much in the culture to just be terrified and you know they they gave us sex education in school and how to use a condom and all of this sort of stuff because it was really drummed into us. I don't know if that still happens.

[00:49:06]It was around the time as well of uh the idea that you know was it Mouthus Mouthus was right. Um there was that that program from the Ethiopian famine and the news and he opens with Mouthus was right that you know there are far too many people in the world it's overpop populated and that kind of idea started to spread into that as well. Um, so yeah, there it's it's just it's honestly that it's just a multi-pronged attack. Uh, and but then you have the then see then you have the problem of like well look if you start a family when you're 20 how you going to afford a house impossible to buy a house in this country.

[00:49:51]>> Yeah. I mean, working class and uh >> everyone in my generation has never never owned a house. I don't Right.

[00:50:03]>> I think I might I might be missing something here, but like the idea of owning your own house as a workingclass person only became a possibility during Thatcher's time.

[00:50:17]>> Yeah.

[00:50:18]>> Um and >> that was drummed in too. That was massively drummed in to me when I was growing up as well.

[00:50:26]>> I don't understand what happened for for again not probably none of our ancestors ever owned a house but yet they had multiple children and even for all the incels and all the just demoralized kind of boys out there. Every single one of your male ancestors was successful in finding a mate and having children.

[00:50:47]like you you come from a very long line of succeeders of winners in the evolutionary game. So why are you letting whoever the stranger on the internet tell you that you you don't have it in you to do the same as every single one of your ancestors did.

[00:51:07]>> Just just before we wrap up, there's one other force that I've seen especially among young women. It has to be said, especially young women. Now, I don't know how strong this is as a force, but I've definitely seen it and every time I see it, I kind of shudder a little bit, which is a really quite militant antiatalism.

[00:51:29]This is like a young girl who's 22 or something and she's like militantly against having kids. I'm never going to have children and all this sort of stuff. Um, where does that come from?

[00:51:41]What what what is this?

[00:51:44]>> Well, again, I that's I think that that's kind of peer nonsense. I think she'll believe it until she finds somebody that she falls in love with and who wants who says to her, "Let's have let's have a baby."

[00:51:57]>> Um, you know, just like on the go go uh what's that podcast called? Call me daddy. Mhm.

[00:52:04]>> the the the whole fur about that that she's been telling women not to get married, not to have babies and then suddenly she meets someone after years and is immediately getting married and having a baby, you know, I hate to say it. I'm not going to say it because it's too bad. I was, you know, it is half a joke, but just it used to used to be it used to be sexist to say that women weren't rational, but feminism has made that actually an empirical fact.

[00:52:37]And it's and it's half a it's half a joke because a lot of men aren't rational either. I'm sorry to say it's kind of but but um yeah, I think I think it's just about peer pressure. I think it's just about cultural messaging. I think um you know girls say a lot of a lot of [ __ ] in order to to to be popular and to fit into a group. Um, and actually have finding a relationship, finding a good guy to have a family with is a way for her to escape that female toxicity really because all of the women around you as soon as that an opportunity pops up will take it just like the host of the Call Me Daddy podcast. They'll tell you and you and you not to not to do these things. They'll tell you to cut your hair even though in the hope that it'll make you look uh less attractive. Okay.

[00:53:37]To make them look better. Um, and it Yeah. So, just just take just take the kind of like heart to hearts that girls that your girlfriends and best friends have with you lightly, I'd say, and put your own interests. Find out who you are and then follow that.

[00:53:58]Yeah. And same with boys. Same with boys.

[00:54:03]What do you I mean I guess one of my more say chauvinist but one of the things I I've come to believe is that if a blow if a man is secure in himself and confident enough to take the lead >> in whatever's going on. And I don't mean that in a in a kind of uh toxic way or giving orders or anything like that.

[00:54:29]like not like a little emperor but just somebody who's confident in himself, okay, to lead um and to be himself that in a in a kind of healthy dynamic I I mean I hesitate to say this but I find that most of the time that women will kind of naturally kind of gravitate towards the man in their life if she really likes him, you know? I mean I I mean even in like t I mean I'm just thinking about like different girlfriends I've had, you know, suddenly like I mean really tiny little things like um you know I used to like Bob Dylan quite a lot and suddenly my girlfriend likes Bob Dylan, you know what I mean? Or or whatever whatever it is. It's just that kind of thing. And I think that for many not for all women obviously there's you know spectrums but for many women if they find the right guy you know they're kind of put at ease.

[00:55:25]they don't actually want to be put in that role of having to take the lead or be the quotequote be the man or you know and that that's where a lot of the anxiety and the unhappiness of >> a lot of modern women uh comes from I think is because society keeps on telling them that they can do this role which which actually goes against a lot of their nature is that too too much to say that >> no I mean it's it's basic yeah it's basic basically right like you say there are women who are going to book that trend and there are men who who are going to book that trend as well but um generally um you know we we're born with certain evolutionary endowments because they helped us survive and reproduce um and without them you know um and obviously certain percent evolution demands but certain percentage of people who were born or organisms that are born are not going are actually going to have lots mutations and things like that that are actually not that means that they're not going to survive and thrive unfortunately. But um but what the one one of the things I want to come back on about about addictions is um yes that kind of thing in a man is very very attractive.

[00:56:43]And I I think kind of the the the thing that we need to be worried about, boys need to be worried about about falling into maybe kind of addictions like um pornography and um you know opiates or things like that. That denotes a loss of control. That denotes that you are not in control and you are not a good partner. that a woman in a crisis cannot a woman and your offspring >> cannot count on you in a crisis because you know as we know um when people are addicted it changes their whole personality it changes their whole outlook it changes their priorities it changes it changes everything basically and so I mean whe whether or not you know that is actually again what's meant to happen you And getting young men hooked on these things younger and younger gives them a feeling, I don't know, desolation, like they're kind of never going to find a way that there are no more there are no rights of passage anymore that men uh can have in order to reach manhood in the same way that there are no uh having a baby was once a right of passage for a woman in order to reach um uh womanhood and that gave her status. Today it doesn't give you status. But I mean where are the rights of passage for men?

[00:58:04]I mean there doesn't seem to be any path as you were saying before any path for them any guided path for them at the minute. Feminists are just are guiding women towards you know um annihilation self annihilation um and menists you know uh that's what I call them. sorry that people people it kind of encompasses the my men's rights red pill I don't know Andrew tape that kind of thing it's just you know people who are promoting this kind of like ridiculous version of um of masculinity which is basically just male competition interexual male competition they're just showing off and making people feel demoralized so yeah they're they're not really models either so um yeah yeah I just uh I just wish people were more interested in the oh sorry so sorry I wish the media was more interested in actual solutions than it is in just monetizing the the drama >> what one of the things that I would like to see and it's very hard to get people to see or to have the maturity to come to this point really difficult and feminism has done a real job on this when it comes to trying to speak to women about this which is look men and women are different okay they're different and they have different roles to play, but that does not mean that one is better than the other. Okay? And this one of the issues is though when you start going into what that difference is and what those different roles are, you've automatically got a narrative or a script that says the man is trying to say he's better, the man is trying to right. And this makes it super duper difficult uh to have a serious conversation about the roles of men and women because you've you're just al you're just walking into this wall again and again and again of men like if men say look this is what we're built for.

[01:00:08]It sounds like they're trying to say we're better. We're better than you in some way. So this this I don't know how to overcome because I've tried in many different ways. Uh and invariably invariably we we come up against this uh you know that to to some extent motherhood is you know motherhood's a very important thing uh you know to to women um to some extent you know uh you know I don't know like being a provider and all this all this sort of like the it's not even being a provider. I've I've often thought about this in a psychological way, right? And you can tell me if you disagree, if I'm talking nonsense, but I've always thought that like if you're trying to get a a male ego and if you're trying to get a female ego, you attack different things. Okay?

[01:01:00]>> Like the way to really attack a man is to attack his prow his prowess and his abilities in various different fields.

[01:01:09]>> Okay? This is why you might go to, well, you've got a small dick or you're crap in bed or whatever. But you attack his abilities to do stuff, >> okay? If he's known in a certain field or area, you're claiming [ __ ] at that thing, his actual ability.

[01:01:24]Whereas, I'd imagine that if you attack most women on those sorts of things, they just wouldn't really give a [ __ ] They, you know, they could, yeah, they may feel it, but it wouldn't like reduce them. Whereas, if you go to a woman >> on their popularity, >> Yeah. Yeah. their popularity or or even their appearance. We just say look fat and ugly.

[01:01:40]>> Oh yeah.

[01:01:40]>> That would reduce most women to tears in in seconds.

[01:01:43]>> So you could soc that shows you at some deep sea level >> the the relative weightings of these things in terms of importance are different for men and women.

[01:01:53]>> Yes.

[01:01:54]>> Yeah.

[01:01:54]>> But nobody would like nobody will is able to admit this um you know without becoming an argument somehow.

[01:02:02]>> Yeah. I mean there are mountains of data on that basically. Yes. What men and women find what what they prioritize you know in a partner in a friend different things you know and those two differences are basically what we see in the data across the world.

[01:02:22]>> Yeah. So anyway, I mean over the course of one conversation, we're not going to come up with all the come up with all the solutions, but I mean like the step number one has to be that not only people in general, but the authorities and you know governments and so on just have to accept the fact that you can you can actually have the uh you know it's like the number one thing they teach in lo I logic course here they talk about equivocation >> men men and women are equal. Okay. In terms of their rights, that does not mean they're equal in all respects. It's two different senses of the same word.

[01:03:03]>> Yeah.

[01:03:03]>> And yet the inability of people to get their head around that, you know, well, it leads to the slop. It leads to the gender wars.

[01:03:10]>> Yeah. And we need to work out whether you know that's the point really because that that will determine how we um attack it.

[01:03:21]>> Absolutely. Well, Paula, it's been fascinating. Where can people find you?

[01:03:26]>> I'm on uh I'm on X at uh Paula Wright there. And then I've got a link tree up there, D.

[01:03:33]>> So, I'll I'll I'll link your Twitter account in the show.

[01:03:37]>> Yeah, that's it. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:03:38]>> And uh people can find you there. Uh it's been interesting. I can't wait to see what the comments are going to be uh on this there. It's always fun when we get into these sorts of topics because people are very dug in on their sides.

[01:03:51]They have very very strong views on on this depending on where they're coming from. But uh >> thanks for coming on Paula and see you again sometime. See you again.

[01:04:00]>> Yes. Thank you. Byebye.

[01:04:03]>> Byebye.

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