When a Witness Won’t Answer the Question… It Gets Ugly - Utah v. Grist

Added: 2026-05-05

[00:00:00]I have great empathy for Mr. Face Meer, who is Miss Gri's attorney, because she is a somewhat uncooperative witness with her own attorney in that she hasn't learned how to answer questions yet, and it's way past time when she should have. I'll tell you more in just a minute.

[00:00:28]Hi, Tony Dit here. Formerly, I was a Missouri attorney in active practice.

[00:00:33]Then I retired. Then I unretired and started a YouTube channel. And I bring you all kinds of stuff about trials and the law. So, no legal advice is given, but stay tuned. This is what we're talking about today.

[00:00:49]This Utah murder trial centers on an alleged family plot. Prosecutors claim the defendant helped plan the killing of her own son-in-law, Matthew Restelli.

[00:00:59]Multiple people are charged and the case turns on who planned what and who pulled the trigger. So, the direct examination of Tracy Gri started off yesterday with basically a little bit of history, and it took forever, it seemed to me, to get to the point where you were discussing anything at all that might be relevant to the issues in the case. Now, that's probably because he wanted to humanize her in front of the jury. He wanted them to be able to see her under a setting where she wasn't stressed. But because she couldn't answer a question, yes or no, she would always say, "Yeah, as a matter of fact," and just keep on narrating. It became problematic for him. He made some errors in terms of getting objections from leading questions. And finally, I think the prosecutor just said, "Ah, the heck with it. Let him lead." because he continued to lead all throughout her direct examination. But finally, we got to a little dissertation about the family dynamics between Kate and Matt. And this is what we learned.

[00:02:08]>> And uh what was the tiff about >> dur was the end of May and I asked Matt if Kate could come out and stay with me for a week or so when the kids got out of school and he said no. And so I and we were alone in the kitchen and I said, "Please, I would it would be I said it won't I'll pay for their their gas. I'll pay for I'll rent the car for them to get there. I will give them spending money." Um, and he said no. He and he got mad at me and he he was really irritated that I pressed the issue and um he said that Katie needs to stay and work and get a she didn't have a job but he was saying that he his implication was that he she should get a job.

[00:02:58]>> Was Matt working at that time? Did you know?

[00:02:59]>> No, he wasn't working at that time that I know.

[00:03:02]>> Was Kate working at that time? Did you know?

[00:03:05]>> No.

[00:03:06]>> Okay. So, neither were working.

[00:03:07]>> No.

[00:03:09]Sorry, I'm gonna sneeze.

[00:03:12]>> Sorry, I beat it. Um, so, uh, did you, uh, was Matt annoyed with with your request?

[00:03:20]>> Yes.

[00:03:20]>> Uh, at that time, uh, had you, uh, been under the impression that Matt and Kate were disputing about other issues.

[00:03:31]>> Kate and Matt were often disputing about other issues. So, is that a yes?

[00:03:35]>> That's a yes.

[00:03:36]>> Thank you. Uh, do you recall Kate testifying about the Las Vegas trip with Matt's mom and her?

[00:03:43]>> Yes.

[00:03:43]>> And Matt?

[00:03:44]>> Yes.

[00:03:45]>> And was this in and around that time?

[00:03:48]>> Yes.

[00:03:49]>> And what was your understanding of that annual event? I knew that Diane and her Diane's family would invite Katie and Matt to go to Las Vegas with her with their kids and spend I think it's just shy of a week there in Las Vegas enjoying the a time share that the Restelli family had. And when Kate, so they were planning to go this year as they had gone every year for a while and Diane Kate told me that Diane had cancelled the going to Las Vegas and I don't know if that was just Matt and Kate's cancelling or everybody's being cancelled going to Las Vegas. I'm still unclear on that.

[00:04:44]Did you understand why Kate was uninvited and Matt were uninvited?

[00:04:50]>> I understood that it was because Kate and Matt were very very broke and to spend money, gas, wear and tear on the car, spending money was something that um Kate told me that Diane didn't want to um put that burden on them. And also Diane was aware that Matt and Katie were fighting. Okay.

[00:05:20]>> Then we got to the issue of the travel between Tmacula, California and American Fork, Utah and where his truck wouldn't make it and the rental car and all of that. And watch, you can just feel the frustration of the lawyer here as he's trying to get some details out of her without running a foul of the rule on narration. Not that he's getting an objection on it, but he needs to try to play by the rules. And I think he's trying to. And he gets, as you can see, somewhat frustrated in this string of questions here.

[00:05:55]>> So, you had actually uh sent her a credit card.

[00:05:58]>> Yes. And how long after she received the credit card did she leave to come to Utah?

[00:06:04]>> One day two max.

[00:06:07]>> And how long did it take for you to send the credit card to where she actually got it?

[00:06:11]>> It took probably a week all in to all told that by the time I called the credit card company, added her and then they sent it to me and I sent it to her.

[00:06:23]So probably it took a little over a week maybe. So my question was, how long did it take for you to send Kate the credit card before she received it?

[00:06:32]>> Oh, probably a day and a half, two days, because I sent it FedEx.

[00:06:37]>> Okay. So, the credit card company sent you the credit card even though it was in the name of Kate, >> right?

[00:06:44]>> And then you FedExed it to Kate in California.

[00:06:46]>> Correct.

[00:06:47]>> Okay.

[00:06:49]And so, uh, did you ever have an occasion to talk about, uh, Kate and Matt divorce?

[00:06:57]Yes. I talked with Kate about getting a divorce. Yes.

[00:07:01]>> Was that before she came to Utah?

[00:07:04]>> Yes. Be definitely before she came to Utah.

[00:07:07]>> And after she came to Utah.

[00:07:08]>> And after she came to Utah.

[00:07:10]>> Was it your understanding that Kate was going to live in Utah for the rest of her life? When she came.

[00:07:17]It was my understanding that she was going to stay with me for a few weeks to figure out step one, step two, step three on the process of a divorce.

[00:07:33]And I she did say that she would prefer to move to Utah.

[00:07:39]And to my mind, that would happen in about a year a because she had to go through the steps of getting a divorce.

[00:07:48]>> So when she uh arrived at your home on June 20th, do you remember when she arrived?

[00:07:55]>> Yeah, it was like 1:00 in the morning.

[00:07:56]>> Okay. So early early in the morning. And uh what was her accommodations? She stayed at your home.

[00:08:03]>> She stayed at my home. Um >> what were her accommodations?

[00:08:06]>> I gave her my bedroom. Um, her and Steele slept in my queen-sized bed and then I put a mattress on the floor for Cheyenne who is seven. And I slept downstairs in the basement on an mattress, an air mattress on the ground um because it made more sense for Kate to have access to the bathtub and the larger bathroom for the kids' sake and the to be able to be comfortable for them to sleep. Is it fair to say that you gave Kate and the two kids the master ba bedroom suite which had a bathroom and then you moved downstairs?

[00:08:44]>> Yes.

[00:08:44]>> Okay. So that master bedroom had its own bathroom.

[00:08:47]>> Yeah.

[00:08:48]>> Uh upstairs who lived upstairs?

[00:08:51]>> Upstairs was my master my primary bedroom and then that was Kate. Kate was occupying. um Kevin a guest room that Kevin was still staying in and because he had been with us for two and a half yearsish and then Rory's bedroom um Aurora um and then a bath another guest another bathroom for Aurora and Kevin to use.

[00:09:16]>> So upstairs three bedrooms, two baths.

[00:09:19]>> Yes.

[00:09:19]>> Master bedroom had its own bath.

[00:09:21]>> Yes.

[00:09:21]>> And then Kevin and Rory would share the hallway bathroom.

[00:09:25]>> Correct.

[00:09:25]>> Okay. And you said you slept down in in the basement.

[00:09:28]>> Yes.

[00:09:29]>> And who slept downstairs?

[00:09:31]>> Jacob had a bedroom downstairs. And down the downstairs basement there was a TV area with a couch and you could Xbox TV and a place for we had a pool table and then it was Jake's bedroom. And so I was sleeping next to the pool table >> on an air mattress.

[00:09:51]>> Uh did you consider this to be a long-term arrangement?

[00:09:54]>> No.

[00:09:55]Now, part of Defense Council's job here is to clean up some facts that don't look good for Tracy. Specifically, the fact that she owned a gun, she had it in a gun safe, where the gun safe was, and all of that. And again, we have this sort of tussle between her and the lawyer about getting these facts into the record. And God bless him, he does continue to try, but he gets frustrated and it comes across in his voice. And I think it actually kind of scares Tracy just a little bit, but she might just be scared because she may not be telling the truth. I don't know. Tell me what you think.

[00:10:33]>> What was in the gun safe besides a gun?

[00:10:35]Well, I guess you've testified if you could remind me. I'm sorry.

[00:10:39]>> Um, passports, some cash, um, birth certificates, immunization records, and some social security cards.

[00:10:50]I think there were some divorce papers in there as well >> from your divorce.

[00:10:53]>> Yes.

[00:10:57]>> And so if we go back uh in time now, there was a trip planned in uh early 2024 to Disneyland.

[00:11:09]>> Yes.

[00:11:09]>> Did you instigate that or did others instigate that?

[00:11:15]>> Oh, Kevin and I came up with the idea together.

[00:11:18]And why did you do that?

[00:11:21]>> Because Kevin had come to stay with me from Chicago and so he was close by and I wanted to give him something to look forward to. And like I had all these kids um who were in a place where we could transport them from Utah to California with relative ease as opposed to as they got older and maybe kids were getting spread out more. So we chose um I chose to give it to them. I think we started planning it back in January, the pri pri prior year, maybe um October, November, so the prior year.

[00:12:07]And then and it was supposed to be a Christmas gift for 2024.

[00:12:12]But the trip wasn't going to happen at Christmas. It would happen in February because crowds were less in Disney in February.

[00:12:20]>> Did all the family know about this Disney trip?

[00:12:22]>> 100%. I it wasn't I didn't want to make it a surprise because it took too much planning and part of the fun and part of the gift is planning for it. Buying custom t-shirts.

[00:12:40]>> Do you do custom t-shirts for the whole family?

[00:12:42]>> Yes, we did.

[00:12:43]>> You heard Carolyn talk about having t-shirts for all the kids?

[00:12:46]>> Yes.

[00:12:46]>> Including Lucas, uh Matt's oldest son.

[00:12:49]>> Yes.

[00:12:49]>> How old is Lucas at that time, do you think? Lucas was 18 or 19 and I'm not sure. I think he I do not believe he was living with Matt and Katie at that time.

[00:13:01]I think he had moved out.

[00:13:03]>> So, how old was he?

[00:13:06]>> He's probably 19.

[00:13:07]>> Okay, thank you.

[00:13:08]>> During this same time, he's trying to clear up some of the implications from some of those text messages, like the one where she said, "I'm going to strangle him." uh not exactly the kind of thing you want written in a permanent record that you're going to see again at your murder trial. So, his job is to try and clean that up and he's trying to do that and he's also trying to get some of this stuff into the record and make it, you know, make the explanation reasonably understandable.

[00:13:35]And uh what was the tiff about?

[00:13:39]>> During it was the end of May and I asked Matt if Kate could come out and stay with me for a week or so when the kids got out of school and he said no. And so I and we were alone in the kitchen and I said please I would it would be I said it won't I'll pay for their their gas.

[00:13:59]I'll pay for I'll rent the car for them to get there. I will give them spending money. Um, and he said no. He and he got mad at me and he he was really irritated that I pressed the issue and um he said that Katie needs to stay and work and get a she didn't have a job, but he was saying that he his implication was that she should get a job.

[00:14:25]>> Was Matt working at that time? Did you know?

[00:14:27]>> No, he wasn't working at that time that I know.

[00:14:29]>> Was Kate working at that time? Did you know?

[00:14:32]No.

[00:14:33]>> Okay. So, neither were working.

[00:14:35]>> No.

[00:14:36]>> Sorry, I'm gonna sneeze.

[00:14:40]>> There I beat it. Um, so, uh, did you, uh, was Matt annoyed with with your request?

[00:14:47]>> Yes.

[00:14:48]>> Uh, at that time, uh, had you, uh, been under the impression that Matt and Kate were disputing about other issues?

[00:14:58]Kate and Matt were often disputing about other issues. So, was that a yes?

[00:15:03]>> That's a yes.

[00:15:04]>> Thank you. Uh, do you recall Kate testifying about the Las Vegas trip with Matt's mom and her?

[00:15:10]>> Yes.

[00:15:11]>> And Matt?

[00:15:12]>> Yes.

[00:15:12]>> And was this in and around that time?

[00:15:15]>> Yes.

[00:15:16]>> And what was your understanding of that annual event?

[00:15:21]I knew that Diane and her Diane's family would invite Katie and Matt to go to Las Vegas with her with their kids and spend I think it's just shy of a week there in Las Vegas enjoying the a time share that the Restelli family had. And when Kate, so they were planning to go this year as they had gone every year for a while and Diane Kate told me that Diane had cancelled the going to Las Vegas and I don't know if that was just Matt and Kate's cancelling or everybody's being cancelled going to Las Vegas. I'm still unclear on that.

[00:16:12]Did you understand why Kate was uninvited and Matt were uninvited?

[00:16:17]>> I understood that it was because Kate and Matt were very very broke and to spend money, gas, wear and tear on the car, spending money was something that um Kate told me that Diane didn't want to um put that burden on them. And also Diane was aware that Matt and Katie were fighting. Okay. What followed was kind of a disjointed almost chaotic recitation of different facts and circumstances that occurred between the time that Matt left or I should say between the before the time Matt left and the time that he got to the house. And so a lot of these are designed to clear up the implication that she was in and trying to help finagle him to get him to come there so that he could be killed. And the attorney does a reasonably good job of trying to stay on track, but it it really is a confusing narrative and you really have to pay close attention to it to understand it. Again, he's trying really hard to humanize both Tracy and Matt in terms of getting this into a situation where both of them are surprised by the outcome. And you'll have to judge for yourself whether he succeeds in that regard. But this is where I think if he's going if she's going to have problems on cross-examination, this is the point where we're going to start having those problems. At that time, we were trying to let her be able to stay and postpone her going back to California by maybe a week or so, more.

[00:18:13]And I knew I knew that Matt's truck couldn't make it to California.

[00:18:22]>> Could >> Could not make it to California.

[00:18:26]>> What truck?

[00:18:26]>> The truck he drove. So, he couldn't come pick them up.

[00:18:30]>> Where was the truck?

[00:18:31]>> California. She said the truck couldn't make it to California.

[00:18:34]>> So, >> I can't tell if this is nerves or macacity. I don't know whether she's just having trouble keeping the story straight in her brain or whether she really doesn't understand or hear what she's saying sometimes. But, as you can see, it is really frustrating for the lawyer.

[00:18:49]>> So, the car rental if if Kate stayed in California and Kate stayed in Utah, Matt and Kate would be separate for another week or so if she couldn't rent a car.

[00:19:03]I knew she could rent a car.

[00:19:05]>> You knew what?

[00:19:06]>> I knew she could rent a car, but we >> because she had a credit card.

[00:19:12]>> Yes. And Matt was unaware of this credit card.

[00:19:16]We were just extending to extend her time so she could make a plan.

[00:19:25]>> And did she ever make a plan?

[00:19:29]I know that she spoke to at least one attorney.

[00:19:34]>> So the day before Matt was killed, she spoke to an attorney.

[00:19:37]>> Yeah.

[00:19:37]>> So is your understanding at that time she's delving into what it's going to take to get a divorce?

[00:19:43]>> Yes.

[00:19:44]>> And at that time, was there some idea of killing Matt?

[00:19:47]>> No. No.

[00:19:48]>> Well, you had said it in uh in February to strangle him. Wasn't that part of the plan?

[00:19:54]>> No. Well, you had said it in April or May.

[00:19:58]>> Deleting.

[00:19:59]>> Apparently, the prosecutor's no dose has finally kicked in.

[00:20:03]>> Argumentative.

[00:20:05]>> Let's rephrase our questions.

[00:20:07]>> In April or May, did you say you would just drive to kill him?

[00:20:12]>> I said I would drive and strangle him.

[00:20:14]Drive 10 hours and strangle him. And I said about when he lied trying to make Kate mad at me, I said, "I want to I'm going to kill him." And that was a harmless expression.

[00:20:34]>> Now, here's a problem. She is obviously coming to terms with what happened, and she's trying to articulate some kind of rational explanation for why you would be saying these things if you didn't mean them. and she's just it she comes up with that explanation. You're going to have to tell me in the comments whether you think that was real or whether you think that was, you know, minted on the spot for that question because given the delay it took her in answering it, you could almost hear that modem sound, you know, when the modem isn't connecting that that sort of thing or the in if you're a a Mac user, you know, the little beach ball that comes up and spins on the screen >> of my frustration.

[00:21:19]So, on July 11th, when Kate uh had spoken to the lawyer, did she advise you of that conversation?

[00:21:27]>> Um, ask again, please.

[00:21:28]>> On July 11th, when Kate had spoken to that lawyer, had she advised you of that uh conversation?

[00:21:34]>> She sent me the conversation that with her attorney and the attorney she was consulting, but I >> was that a yes.

[00:21:42]>> Yes.

[00:21:42]>> Thank you. Did you listen to what she sent you?

[00:21:46]Not if if I did, I listened to maybe two minutes of it because I'm bit I was too busy and I believe the recording was more for her purposes than she can just tell me and give me the shorthand of what was said.

[00:22:00]>> You've heard the conversation as an exhibit here in court. Is that right?

[00:22:05]>> Ask me >> between the lawyer and Kate.

[00:22:08]>> Yes.

[00:22:09]>> Okay. And is that to your recollection the uh recording that was sent to you?

[00:22:14]>> Yes.

[00:22:15]And uh that was uh July 11th, right?

[00:22:18]>> Yes.

[00:22:19]>> And uh there was some conversation in around that time on that day about the rental car. Is that correct?

[00:22:26]>> Yes.

[00:22:26]>> And did you come up with a plan about Kate not being able to drive the car?

[00:22:33]>> It was Terara Lynn's idea to suggest that um Kate sprain her pretend like she has a sprained ankle. So, she couldn't drive the rental car back. And also, it worked out that we could show Matt that the car rental agency wouldn't rent a car to her unless she had a credit card in her name. Now, for those of you who are having trouble following along playing this game at home, we know that Matt didn't know she had the credit card, even though she did have the credit card, and she could very easily have done that. The point I want to make here is that Terra Lynn seems to be part of this conspiracy, too, although she wasn't charged.

[00:23:23]>> Was Kate trying to get Matt to come to Utah at that point?

[00:23:26]>> No. No.

[00:23:27]What was uh what was your understanding of Kate's desire at that point as far as Matt coming to Utah >> to she wanted to stay?

[00:23:37]I'm not answering the question again.

[00:23:41]>> Did Kate want Matt to come to Utah?

[00:23:42]>> No.

[00:23:44]>> When did you find out Matt was coming to Utah?

[00:23:47]>> It was the 12th.

[00:23:52]>> How did you find out?

[00:23:54]>> Kate texted me. So, she texted you, "Matt's coming."

[00:23:58]>> Yes.

[00:23:58]>> Is that the first time you knew that Matt was coming?

[00:24:01]>> Yes.

[00:24:02]>> Uh the day before you uh joked about her having a sprained ankle. You recall that?

[00:24:07]>> Yes.

[00:24:08]>> And you recall that uh there was the question of being able to get a debit card or credit card or something to rent. You recall that?

[00:24:16]>> Yes.

[00:24:17]>> And did you know Kate went to the rental car agency uh before she left to go there?

[00:24:23]>> Yes.

[00:24:23]>> You knew she was going to do that? Yes.

[00:24:26]>> And what was your understanding was the purpose of that?

[00:24:30]>> Because she wanted to go because she knows that um she we had this conversation. She knew that Matt had made the arrangements for the rental car. And so she wanted to go and physically say to the people, "So if I have just this ID and this debit card, can I rent a car?" And for them to say no. So that way if Matt called them and said, "Why aren't you renting her the car?" They wouldn't be they would be able to give him a response.

[00:25:04]>> I'm sorry. That just makes no sense to me at all. That that sounds contrived.

[00:25:10]Maybe it was contrived for Matt's benefit. I don't know. But I'm beginning to think maybe it was contrived specifically for this jury's benefit. to your understanding at this time had Kate and Matt had a conversation about divorce.

[00:25:25]>> I am Yes.

[00:25:28]>> Let me let me limit that a little bit.

[00:25:30]>> To your understanding during the time that Kate was in Utah up to that day, July 11th, so June 20th or 21st, she got there at 1:00 a.m. June 21st to July 11th. Had Kate and Matt had a conversation about divorce? I don't believe so.

[00:25:50]>> But they had previously to your understanding.

[00:25:51]>> Yes.

[00:25:55]>> And so on July 12th uh you were notified by text that uh that Matt is coming.

[00:26:05]>> Yes.

[00:26:07]>> And do you recall what your text response was?

[00:26:09]>> I'll call you in a few minutes.

[00:26:12]>> Yeah. I'll call you. And did you end up having a telephone conversation with Kate? Yes, I called her.

[00:26:17]>> And what was said?

[00:26:19]>> I asked her, "What's going on? How is he coming out? Did he borrow a car? What's going on?" And she said that he was going to drive out. And I said, "Okay, well, if did he already leave?" And she um I don't remember what she said. Um, and I said, "Well, if he's coming out, I want you to just have a when you come when he comes out, just have a conversation with him." And in some ways, maybe it's better because you won't be h going home to Tmacula, having a conversation with him where you're alone in the house and he can yell. If he's coming out here, then he can have a conversation with you. And there's adults in the house. he will be able to be more civil in a conversation.

[00:27:11]>> And did you have an occasion to uh talk to Kevin that day?

[00:27:17]>> Yes, I did.

[00:27:18]>> And where was that?

[00:27:20]>> Um I asked Kevin if he wanted to go for sushi because no one else in my house likes sushi and Kevin does. And so it's one of the things that we do just to connect and so I said, "You want to meet me for sushi?" And we did. We met at about 2ish, 3ish, somewhere around there.

[00:27:41]>> Okay. So, you received a text earlier in the day that Matt's not coming. Uh, and >> Matt is coming.

[00:27:47]>> Matt is coming. Sorry. Thank you. Uh, were you home when you received that text?

[00:27:50]>> No, I was in Salt Lake.

[00:27:52]>> Okay. And when you met for Sushi, uh, Matt's living at the house, right? Or not Matt, excuse me. Kevin's living at the house, right?

[00:27:59]>> Yes.

[00:28:00]>> And, uh, did you communicate with Kevin to meet for sushi?

[00:28:04]>> Yes. And how far is sushi from your house?

[00:28:06]>> Um 2 minutes, couple blocks.

[00:28:09]>> And had you been there before?

[00:28:10]>> Several times.

[00:28:11]>> And uh and you and Kevin met there?

[00:28:14]>> Yes.

[00:28:15]>> And uh when you met there, what did you talk about?

[00:28:19]>> We talked about I I told him I said, "I'm can't believe Matt's coming out." Um and I we went we were talking about, you know, I said, "How do you know how that came about?" and he said no. I asked him if he would please not go out that night so he could just be around the house when Matt showed up.

[00:28:43]>> I find that to be an interesting admission that she asked him to stay.

[00:28:47]That does sort of track with the conspiracy, but her explanation in the abstract sounds credible. We talked about um Kate's options like um well if he comes out so they can have a conversation in the living room and if he got there and he was really too tired. I I let Kevin know that I guess excuse me.

[00:29:20]I let Kevin know that I had invited Matt to stay at our at our house. if he wanted to because he would have gotten there after a long day of driving. And I know that drive, it's a long drive. I let him know that I had offered Matt Matt or Matt and Kate money to stay in the Haldian Express um to so they could sleep and talk.

[00:29:45]I um and I said that you know the they could just I said I I remember saying this and thinking oh this is never going to happen. I said you know maybe he'll come out and she want says I want to stay an extra week and I said I don't think that'll happen because he won't want to turn around and go back home.

[00:30:08]>> What did Kate tell you? Uh Matt's plan was when he came to Utah >> to pick them up and bring them home.

[00:30:15]>> And so what did you do in preparation of that?

[00:30:19]>> I cleaned my house because it was a disaster.

[00:30:24]>> And now finally after our 12-hour run in this theater, we get to hear the narration of her explanations around the shooting.

[00:30:37]And you have to realize that because she was on that phone call talking to Diane that not only does her description have to mesh with the physical evidence there in the house as well as the what she told Diane that makes it much more difficult for her to have concocted a story that is going to touch all those bases. And you'll have to evaluate this in terms of whether she actually succeeds in that regard. This is probably the longest segment that I'm going to have in here.

[00:31:15]And I think that, you know, we have to do this. So, this is the really tough part to get through for her, at least in my opinion. And we're not going to have time to do the cross-examination in this video today. I wish we did, but we're just not going to have that time.

[00:31:35]>> And so he came around that corner.

[00:31:37]>> Yes.

[00:31:38]>> And what did he say?

[00:31:40]>> He said, "Hey, so where's Kate?"

[00:31:45]>> And what were you surprised to see him?

[00:31:49]>> I was extremely surprised. I was didn't expect him to be standing in my dining room. Why?

[00:31:59]>> This is a key question. Why? Why weren't you surprised if you knew he was coming?

[00:32:04]And I think he asked it in the right way. We'll see how she does with it.

[00:32:09]>> Because I knew he was coming, but I didn't hear the doorbell. I didn't hear a knock. And I didn't expect him to walk into the house. I was >> What were you expecting? I was expecting for Kate to answer the door so that he could come in and they could talk and then May I >> May you what?

[00:32:35]>> Talk.

[00:32:36]>> No.

[00:32:39]>> Some people just never learn. And apparently she's one of those. This is just incredible to me that you could go through all of this and get to this point and not understand that you answer his questions. You don't just narrate.

[00:32:54]>> So, you expecting Kate to answer the door?

[00:32:56]>> Yes.

[00:32:57]>> And had you had a conversation with Kate about that?

[00:32:59]>> Yes.

[00:33:00]>> And when did you have that conversation?

[00:33:02]>> During the day when I was tidying up the house, trying to make it look nicer when her husband got there.

[00:33:07]>> And what was your understanding of what Kate was going to do? K was going to talk with him knowing that Kevin was probably in his bedroom upstairs which the stairwell goes up.

[00:33:22]>> Do you remember the question?

[00:33:24]>> Sorry.

[00:33:26]>> Question was, what was your understanding what Kate was going to do?

[00:33:30]>> Talk to Matt.

[00:33:32]>> And when Matt appeared around the corner, uh, was he threatening towards you?

[00:33:37]No, he was just kind of like jerky. He was like, "So, where's Kate?" And I was like, and I was in that moment, I'm guessing since he didn't see Kate in the living room that Kate must not have been in the living room because otherwise he wouldn't ask me that.

[00:33:53]>> Did you know Kate wasn't in the living room?

[00:33:55]>> I guessed, but I didn't know.

[00:33:57]>> Well, from your position in the other photo, you could see the stairway, couldn't you?

[00:34:01]>> Yes.

[00:34:02]>> So, did you see Kate come downstairs?

[00:34:03]>> No. No, I didn't.

[00:34:04]>> So, did you know Kate wasn't in the living room?

[00:34:08]I know Kate wasn't in the living room, but I >> I'm sorry. Is that Did you say I know Kate wasn't in the living room? I I was confused by your reply.

[00:34:16]>> Okay.

[00:34:17]>> Did you know Kate was or was not in the living room?

[00:34:23]>> Kate could have walked past me while I was looking at my phone scrolling. I don't think she did, but I didn't think that I thought Kate was going to be in the living room, but I she was not in the living room.

[00:34:37]>> Did you know uh what time Matt was going to get to the house?

[00:34:41]>> 10ish.

[00:34:42]>> Did you have a uh like a a forecast of closer than 10ish?

[00:34:47]>> No, I didn't know.

[00:34:48]>> Did Kate tell you like uh he's 10 minutes out or did Kevin tell you or did Terin I'm not done. This is a long question. Or did uh uh Rory or did uh I'm missing one? Anyone do that to you?

[00:35:05]>> No.

[00:35:06]>> Those of you who are my Cousin Vinnie fans probably recognize that from the part where he says, "No, don't interrupt me yet. You haven't heard the whole question yet."

[00:35:17]It just made me laugh because it's such it's such a Vinnie move. Were you aware of anyone having that kind of uh instant kind of understanding of when Matt was going to get there?

[00:35:28]>> No.

[00:35:28]>> Okay. But you knew about 10.

[00:35:30]>> Yes.

[00:35:32]>> Where were the kids at that time?

[00:35:34]>> They were upstairs. Katie had put them to bed and since it was it had she had put them to bed an hour or so before, I assume they were asleep.

[00:35:45]>> Did you have a conversation with Kate after she put the kids to bed?

[00:35:50]>> Yeah, probably in passing. I'm just Are you okay? How are you feeling?

[00:35:55]>> Where was that conversation?

[00:35:56]>> Downstairs on the main floor.

[00:35:58]>> Okay. So, she's downstairs and upstairs.

[00:36:01]>> She is going to Yes.

[00:36:04]>> to my >> And so, after Kevin said to you, "Where's Kate?" And you said what? You said, "Then what happened?"

[00:36:11]>> Matt said, >> Well, I said Kevin. That's right.

[00:36:16]>> After Matt said to you, "Where is Kate?"

[00:36:18]Uh, and you said what you said, then what happened?

[00:36:22]What I replied was that she's upstairs and I'll have her come down.

[00:36:28]>> Then what happened?

[00:36:30]>> Then I glanced over to look at the stairs to see if she was on her way down.

[00:36:35]>> Then what happened?

[00:36:35]>> And then Matt turned the corner, went back into the living room.

[00:36:39]>> So he went back on this ruggy area.

[00:36:42]>> Yes.

[00:36:43]>> And uh And then what happened? Within a few short period of few moments, I heard gun gunfire.

[00:36:54]>> And then what happened?

[00:36:56]>> Um then I went and went through the kitchen onto the other side. You can't see it on this picture, but I went to the going to the foot of the stairs because the stairs are on the other you still can't see them. I went to the foot of the stairs and that's where I saw him at laying down where he had fallen down.

[00:37:24]And I saw Kevin and I said, "Kevin, what happened? What happened?"

[00:37:32]>> What did Kevin say?

[00:37:33]>> He said he had a knife.

[00:37:36]Did you say anything else?

[00:37:40]>> He said he had a knife and I said, "Did are you okay? Where's Kate?" Um, he said, "I'm okay." And so I then went upstairs.

[00:37:55]>> Thank you.

[00:37:55]>> Sorry.

[00:37:56]>> You can pull out the exhibit 44.

[00:37:58]>> A couple of things really stand out for me here. First of all, she never checked the pulse. never checked to see how badly wounded uh Matt was.

[00:38:10]She didn't call 911.

[00:38:13]There's no real concern that somebody has just been shot dead in her house. There's no real concern that he has a knife or might still be conscious enough to use it.

[00:38:27]And instead, she just jumps over the body, heads upstairs to tell Kate I don't think this I don't think this is going to move the needle for the defense. I really don't. She keeps talking like this as she narrates. And it's pretty clear that she's I I don't think it I don't think she's trying to recall. I think she recalls it pretty clearly, but she's trying to put it in words that make it sound better than it can be. And unfortunately, there's just no way to make yourself sound better when you step over somebody who's been seriously wounded and don't even bother to call for an ambulance for them. If they had called immediately for an ambulance, they might have had a better chance of selling this as self-defense except for the forensics.

[00:39:16]And she certainly would have had a better chance if she had called. And then she asks these questions in her text messages to the neighbor about when did you call 911 the next morning. None of that makes it look good for her. I don't think that she defeated the conspiracy claim, at least not with this part. Maybe some of the other stuff casts a little bit of doubt on it. But as I'm sitting here having looked at most of the evidence in this case at this point, it's just not it's not looking good for her. Now, this goes on for all day basically. And then there's cross-examination. I don't have time to get to that cuz I'm already at 40 minutes, it looks like, but I wanted to do a a fairly indepth review of what she had testified to. And I also wanted to give you a sense of what her testimony was like and the halting way that she testified because I think that's important. I think it's really important in terms of evaluating credibility. And credibility is all she has at this point to try and sell this to a jury and say, "Hey, wasn't me. I wasn't in there.

[00:40:31]Nuh-uh. No, I'm I'm the good girl." I don't buy it. Not after you just jump over somebody who's been seriously wounded and run upstairs. Didn't try to stop the bleeding. Didn't try to apply any first aid. I mean, I'd have felt better for her if she broke down crying and sat on the rug. But she didn't do any of that stuff.

[00:40:51]And that indicates to me that maybe there really was a plan there. Anyway, that's what I have. That's what I have for you today. Thank you for getting this far. If you made it this far, let me know what you think. Thanks for watching. I appreciate you being here today and especially if you have subscribed. That means a lot to me. If you have the opportunity today, try to do just one kind thing to help somebody else. Doesn't have to be a big thing.

[00:41:19]Any kind thing will do. Buy somebody a Coke, get them a cup of coffee, hold open a door for somebody struggling with a package, or even better, overtip your waitress or waiter if you eat out. Those kinds of things make their day brighter.

[00:41:34]And you may find yourself noticing other people when they do kind things for you.

[00:41:38]That would be a way to help make the world a better place. Because after all, isn't that what we're all after? I'm going to drop my email address up here in the event you have a comment or some suggestions to make. I'd appreciate it if you'd send them to me. always enjoy getting something that says video request because again, that's how I keep making videos. Now, YouTube has a few things that they think you might be interested in and they're going to be showing up in the little boxes right up there.