Israel Horowitz VS Oriel Gains | Is The Oral Torah From Sinai?

[00:00:00]This debate centers around whether or not an oral Torah was given at Sinai.

[00:00:05]Ourel began by asking his interlocators regarding what constitutes a valid form of evidence concerning whether or not a tradition originates from Sinai. Despite repeated questioning, neither caract was able to provide any evidence to prove whether or not something came from Sinai, including even their own written Tyra. And as a result, their position was left entirely undefended. In response, Orurel appealed to the chain of transmission mentioned in Pukabis, which traces the traditions, including both the written and the oral Tyra in the hands of the rabbis through the preceding generations back to Moses and Mount Sinai, constituting a higher form of evidence than either of his opponents were able to offer. Thus, as shall be established, the only coherent means of tracing the written Torah back to Moses Mount Si is through the very same method, which includes the oral Torah.

[00:00:55]Thank you and enjoy.

[00:00:59]Ladies and gentlemen, we are live. We have with us um Mr. Dan Moses, Mr. Oriel Gaines.

[00:01:07]>> Hello, >> Mr. Israel Horowitz. Um and we have Oriel's friend on the way. We're here to discuss um the oral Torah, the oral versus the written. Uh me and Dan's belief is that the only Torah that exists is the written Torah, the five books of Moses. Oriel and his friends believe that there is an oral law that also comes from Moses and that's what we're here to debate. So Oriel, let's give you your opening statement.

[00:01:33]>> All right. So the debate's going to be on was an oral Torah given at Sana. Now my opponents here, both of my opponents have no way to verify at all that the Torah itself is from Sana. Um they have no way to verify it. Um and we're comparing the two systems that we have.

[00:01:49]the system that accepts the written um and the system that accepts the written and the oral. The only system which includes the oral Torah that has an ounce of evidence that the Torah is in fact from Sinai is the oral tradition which would make it more justifiable to believe. Right. Only this system that includes the oral and the written has any substantial evidence to show this.

[00:02:09]Um you can go ahead with yours.

[00:02:12]>> Okay.

[00:02:13]>> Okay. That that was quick. I mean, you made a pretty bold claim that you're saying that we have no way to identify that the Torah was at Sinai. So, what's yours?

[00:02:24]>> Right. So, what I would say um is why do you to start off? Why would I think it's really an opening statement, but why do you reject the oral Torah to start off?

[00:02:32]>> Um reject the oral Torah um because it references itself and it has nothing to do with the written Torah. It actually rejects it constantly. It adds laws upon laws that have people deviate. It cuts people out and it has uh the exact opposite effect of the commandments um manifest in action.

[00:02:52]>> Right. So you would say that it adds and what I would say to that is I think you could agree that if the oral Torah was in fact >> given at Sinai, >> right? This then not be adding to the law, this would be incorporated in the law. Correct.

[00:03:05]>> Yeah.

[00:03:05]>> Big if.

[00:03:06]>> Yeah. That's a big if. I wouldn't say correct. No. You're saying that if it I'm just giving you like a hypothetical, right? If it was in fact given at Sinai, right?

[00:03:15]>> The oral Torah >> oral Torah, right?

[00:03:17]>> I'll stick to the this would not be adding to the law because this is given with the Torah. Correct.

[00:03:26]>> I Dude, the way that you phrase your questions, I I don't I don't really uh understand your your frame of question.

[00:03:32]>> Very simple, right? If the Torah was given alongside the oral Torah at Sinai, >> if the oral Torah was from God, then it's from God, >> right? It would not be it would not be adding, correct? It'd be part of >> But this is the only thing that's like funny about this whole premise is that the only thing we know for certain that was given at Sinai is the Torah, the written Torah.

[00:03:50]>> Okay. So, you just said that the only thing that we know that is for sure given at Sinai is the written Torah, right?

[00:03:55]>> Yes. I'm gonna ask you, how do you know the Torah is in fact from Sina? Even if you wanted to make a self-reerencing claim, it claims that it starts from Adam all the way until Moses through the patriarchs to where Moses literally wrote it and talks about the event and there's over a million witnesses confirming that that is true. That is the foundational piece of literature that confirms it happened at all.

[00:04:21]>> Even it's a even if it's a fantasy, that is a statement. That's where you get it from. So, if you're going to appeal to the Torah itself um to establish that it's transmitted from that point, this would be committing the fallacy of begging the question because you are using what's in question to answer what's in question. I'm putting into question the claim of the Torah that it's in fact and I'm asking you how you can verify this.

[00:04:41]>> The Torah itself, it's it's its own claim. Let's just just for a moment if you don't mind.

[00:04:47]>> Do you mind if I pause you for a moment?

[00:04:49]>> No, sure. Go ahead.

[00:04:50]>> Okay. Um where do we get even let's just say it's a mythical story. that's made up. It's not real. Where do people get the story that the Jewish people were taken out of Egypt from the house of slavery and were given the Ten Commandments? I want you to answer that question for me.

[00:05:08]>> And that's irrelevant to my question, right? My question was, how do you >> It's not irrelevant to your question because that's literally the Torah self-reerencing itself. It's the only piece of literature that tells you about that story. Nothing else. But as I already said, if you're going to reference the Torah as evidence that the Torah was soundly transmitted, right?

[00:05:24]That it's in fact from Sinai, you are committing the fallacy of begging the question because you are using what's in question to answer what's in question.

[00:05:30]Your premises are assuming the conclusion.

[00:05:33]>> Um >> um yeah, but again, here's something that you have to understand, which is that the Torah is documented history.

[00:05:38]It's indisputable history. So like when you ask how do you know history from history, this the Torah was accepted world history for thousands of years until some idiot atheist decided to question it. The reality is this is established history of the world and of the Israelite nation. The oral Torah comes along historically 2,000 years later, it's literally rabbis saying their own opinions and they're pretending that this is from Sinai, >> right?

[00:06:02]>> You're committing a historical fallacy.

[00:06:04]>> Right? So when you say that the Torah is in fact an historical event, the fact that was given at Sinai um because let's say that people believe this, because the Jews in fact um believe this, right?

[00:06:13]They they affirmed this at this time, right? This is going to be committing the fallacy of an ad popul you appeal to the fact that the people affirm it to be at Sinai and therefore it's true. Right?

[00:06:22]How how do you affirm any historical event?

[00:06:25]>> Right? You can, for example, um >> documentation, right?

[00:06:28]>> Attestations, you can look at mass transmission, right? So, I'm asking you to do is show me and establish that this claimed historical fact that you just said that Torah was given at Sinai is actually true, right? You have to provide evidence.

[00:06:38]>> How do you how do you establish uh any any truth of history, >> right?

[00:06:42]>> Yeah. But but just to get an idea of where you're coming from, >> mass transmission, there's multiple ways. Archaeology. So I'm asking you to provide and show me that the Torah that you have today is in fact a Torah given at Sinai. Right? You have to establish this.

[00:06:54]>> Ah okay. So uh I I just had a separate question for you. Like what what is your your evidence? Like educate me. I'm a layman. I don't understand your fancy terms. I'm not here to necessarily argue with you. I actually want to understand where you're coming from. And you're like creating a frame. It sounds like to create some sort of trap. We don't need to do that. You can simply tell me what your evidence is. Can you tell us what your evidence is?

[00:07:21]>> We said we said that the Torah is is evidence enough. The world claims it as such. There's over a billion Christians who get their information simply from that. It's more of a thriving culture.

[00:07:33]We as Jews mostly live in other countries other than Israel, which is a relatively new state, a Zionistic and unre a an unreligious state ultimately.

[00:07:43]um that doesn't really value the principles in there. And so I want to know where is it that you find this strong evidence that I don't have or can't claim.

[00:07:52]>> Okay. So you agree then you don't have evidence that the order is from Sonic.

[00:07:55]Correct.

[00:07:56]>> Do I agree that we don't have evidence >> that you cannot provide?

[00:08:00]>> No, I just want to see where you're coming from.

[00:08:02]>> So I'm going to move to show you the evidence once you like either provide me the evidence or you can see that you don't have >> I think that the Torah again I actually don't think that it matters whether it's real or not. I think that the meta concept of the Torah is enough and if it's it's influenced people and culture.

[00:08:18]I mean, you know, the best piece of evidence about the Torah and both the oral Torah is that there isn't evidence to disprove that God isn't real. It's like asking me to bring you ev You're asking me a question like bring me evidence why God is real.

[00:08:31]>> That's not my question, right?

[00:08:32]>> That's a trap question. Kind of like a juvenile question.

[00:08:35]>> God can be real without the Torah being given at Sinai, right? So this is not like addressing my question which is simply how do you know that the Torah is in fact even again if you don't have like a good response you can just admit that and I can move on to show you the actual evidence.

[00:08:47]>> Uh yeah that that's fine please.

[00:08:49]>> So you you then can see that you don't that you cannot display or show >> me me personally right like I don't lose sleep at night. It doesn't actually change anything for me. It might you lose sleep at night but Israel is welcome to to step in.

[00:09:00]>> Yeah. Again, you you continue to pretend like you have some definition for historicity outside of documentation and the the transmission of genuine historical events. You can even take the Torah's position Deuteronomy chapter 4. It says, "Ask now from the beginning of time, from the day that God created man and earth until this very day, has a God ever taken a nation out of slavery with mighty with a mighty hand and signs and wonders. It's never happened." Right?

[00:09:26]The Torah is an unbelievable claim, a remarkable event. It's accepted history by the entire world. That's a historical event, right? As opposed to the oral Torah suspiciously is a secret transmission from one Rebi to his other Rebby in his ear and it's a game of broken telephone with zero evidence other than your belief. So you want to talk about the evidence that it was in fact transmitted silently until now and that it was given at Sinai is because people believe its history. This is an ad popular fallacy, right? Many people believe for example in other religions like Islam that Muhammad split the moon.

[00:09:57]Right? It doesn't mean that this in fact occurred. this is not evidence. So unless you can actually show evidence that Torah is in fact from Sinai, you're just kind of falling into this loop of fallacies.

[00:10:05]>> So you know it's so interesting. We were here to debate oral Torah. You seem to be questioning the written Torah as well. So do you not believe in the written Torah?

[00:10:11]>> No. So the reason why I'm bringing up the written Torah um as part of this is because if it is the case that we have two systems here um one system is written only, right? And the other system is written and oral. And the system of written only cannot provide an ounce of evidence of the Torah from Sinai. While the written and oral can, we're going to go by the system that has the evidence, right, that can establish whether even it's a little small amount of evidence that the Torah is from Sana because I actually to >> you're not you're telling me that you're not going with the system that happens to be God's word and works as in like we can say oral or written Torah or whatever it is that you know you prefer.

[00:10:47]Um but isn't the outcome uh what you care about?

[00:10:52]>> Wait, what do you mean the outcome? like a >> like isn't following the doctrine, let's just say it's both written and oral Torah, that you are now a Jew, a a priest amongst the nation part of the the nation of Israelites who were supposed to hold this holy standard.

[00:11:09]>> Sure, following the Torah is like the goal, right? But how do you know the Torah has given us?

[00:11:13]>> Okay, got it. So that's what I'm saying.

[00:11:14]Like so it just sounds like to me you don't think that the written Torah is a valid piece of literature.

[00:11:20]>> When did I say that? I'm questioning >> by basically constantly getting me to conform to the idea that the written Torah is not enough, that there's something beyond it.

[00:11:29]>> Well, that's not what I'm saying. But it sounds like that. That's why I'm trying to actually get to your point instead of dragging >> if the system that you and Israel follow of written only, right? Cannot provide an ounce of evidence of Torah Israel from Sinai. It makes this um system that you guys have unverifiable, right? And no one should follow an unverifiable system, right, that doesn't have an ounce of evidence, right?

[00:11:49]But I'm saying what gives it the validity that it's been verified because >> even with the oral Torah, you can go on your rabbit hole and we'll come to the same conclusion that it isn't.

[00:11:58]>> I'm just waiting for >> that is what atheists believe in. That is what a huge population of people who don't follow Torah, much less oral Torah. The people who follow oral Torah and written Torah make up a subdivision of the world. Even the Jews which are less than their percentage basically about 10 or 15% are practicing by this oral tradition and there's about 10 or 15 sects that have disagreements with each other on how to follow that >> right so as I already said in regards to like people following like a system right this is irrelevant to the system being true there are millions of Orthodox Jews right that all affirm an oral Torah to be true it doesn't mean the oral Torah is true that's not evidence this is why we're circling back to this ad popular fallacy >> yeah but there's there's billions of Christians who use that same foundation and there's plenty of antiquity and archaeology and literature >> billions of Christians affirm Jesus to be God. Does that make him go?

[00:12:49]>> No, not necessarily.

[00:12:51]>> Thank you. So, the numbers don't >> I got it. But just because the oral Torah exists or there are people claiming that the oral Torah is the Torah and it's at Sinai doesn't mean that it's also God as well. You're talking about religion. This takes >> I never I never made a claim. I'm just waiting for you again. I'm asking you if you can provide evidence it's from Sinai. you can't, that's okay and I can move on to show you how we do have evidence, but I want to wait to see if you can. If you can't, it's okay.

[00:13:12]>> Again, um I'd be I'd be happy, by the way, to to answer that if you want.

[00:13:18]>> I would say that the five books of Moses itself is a good claim, right? You also have the Old Testament, you have the prophets, the neim, you have Joshua immediately opening up the book, saying that you must follow the five books of Moses if you deviate to the right or to the left. You have King David who tells his son Solomon, "Follow the five books of Moses. Don't deviate to the right or to the left." You have Josiah who actually was during a period of time where people were not practicing Torah at all, much less oral Torah. Um to the point that he found a parchment of the five books of Moses and brought back the holidays and had to start relearning Torah. to this idea that there was an oral tradition when people weren't even following things like don't commit adultery, don't murder, um don't do prostitution, uh were clearly pieces of evidence that again I'm not the person like the Old Testament is a very valid piece of literature. Also, the five books of Moses is the oldest piece of literature in antiquity. It is 3,500 years old. We have Dead Sea Scrolls to confirm that that is the rawest and purest form of information and written literature. regardless if you believe that it's actually true or not. That is the piece of evidence that we have.

[00:14:26]>> Great. So, let me respond to that. I'm going to respond to a couple things. Um, first of all, when you mention the Dead Sea Scrolls, right, and that that would be evidence that, for example, the Torah you have today is the same one at Sinai.

[00:14:35]Um, you fall into an issue. Now, the issue would be two things. Number one, the Dead Sea Scroll scribes affirm that the Messiah would come from Aaron. Do you affirm this?

[00:14:44]>> One more time, please.

[00:14:45]>> The scribes of the Dead Sea Scrolls affirmed that the Messiah would come from Aaron. Do you affirm this? The Messiah would come from Aaron.

[00:14:52]>> Yes. The scribes of the Dead Sea Scrolls affirm this.

[00:14:54]>> They do. Yes.

[00:14:55]>> You You've read the Dead Sea Scrolls.

[00:14:57]>> This is a historical fact. Yes.

[00:14:59]>> Okay. It's a new historical fact to me.

[00:15:01]So, you're like self-reerencing that it's a historical fact. When we can read the Torah, which by the way, um, says exactly the same as the Dead Sea Scrolls. Like, I've been to the museum.

[00:15:11]They say that it's exactly the same.

[00:15:13]That there is no tradition that Aaron some messiah. That's not five. That's not in the Torah. get that out.

[00:15:19]>> This is ultimately, one second, this is ultimately a conversation about the Torah. And the reality is that the oldest manuscripts of the Torah, including the translation of the Torah to the Septuagent, which far was far before there was ever uh a rabbitic Judaism in place. The Torah has been consistent, the Samaritan Torah, the Maseretic text, the Septuagent, the core document is intact. There are minor differences based off of different political agendas or whatever, but the ultimate fact is that the Torah is completely intact. The laws, the narratives are intact. It is a reflection of world history and it is a revelation from God. And if you think because let's get to your point which is you think that from the oral Torah you have proof of the written Torah. Let's hear your proof that the oral Torah provides because we're not using oral Torah to prove written Torah. You apparently have that proof. So go ahead.

[00:16:00]>> So let me let me first address the floor is yours.

[00:16:02]>> So when you use the Dead Sea Scrolls as evidence for example there's a couple things you said. You said it's old, right? Um therefore if it's ancient you were talking about the Torah itself. Um and that would be an appealing >> the oldest piece of literature.

[00:16:13]>> Sure. So just because something old does not mean for example it's evidence.

[00:16:15]>> No I get it but like that's it's still like you could go back >> it's evidence that the Torah has been intact for a long time. Yeah.

[00:16:21]>> And I can even grant you for example right that the Torah was intact at that point up until now right as the evidence from Dead Sea Scrolls. What about the 1300 years prior? How do you know that it was soundly transmitted from those 1300 years?

[00:16:33]>> Um 1300 years prior like it depends who you're talking to, right? The only people who even believe in a 6,000-year timeline are the people who follow the Torah and go by the biblical frame.

[00:16:43]>> I don't mean to creation. I mean to Sinai, right? From the point of the Dead Sea Scrolls. How do you know that it was soundly transmitted? Right. From the point of Sinai, which was 1300 years before the Dead Sea Scrolls were dead.

[00:16:52]>> Ah. Um. Ah. So, you're saying that from the giving of the Torah, which was 3,500 years ago, up until when people found the Dead Sea Scrolls 2,000 years ago, around the time of the New Testament.

[00:17:04]>> Yes. Exactly. But I'm saying just because people found an old piece of literature doesn't mean it didn't exist prior to that.

[00:17:10]>> I agree. Sure. So, can you show me the evidence that that manuscript existed prior the 1300 years before and that it was soundly transmitted up up until that point?

[00:17:18]>> We really don't have a lot of evidence to show that that is true.

[00:17:21]>> Okay. Thank you.

[00:17:22]>> I'd like to hear about your evidence though.

[00:17:24]>> Great. So, now that you've admitted that you have no way, >> but but just just to get an idea like I'm willing to buy into this. Okay. But you're telling me that you have a piece of oral Torah that predates the Dead Sea Scrolls. That is going to confirm.

[00:17:36]>> Let me show you evidence >> because that's that's that's what is kind of where your claim is headed.

[00:17:40]>> Never said that, but let me >> I know you didn't say it. Just what it sounds like. So now now that you've conceded that you cannot provide any evidence the Torah um that you possess today is in fact even at Sinai. I'm going to move on now to the evidence that we possess. Um the evidence I'm going to show you right is the chain of transmission that we can find for example in the Mishna and is referenced by for example my monities. Um, this chain >> my monities is like from the 1500s.

[00:18:02]>> Sure. There's no issue with this. Even >> there is an issue with that.

[00:18:05]>> You're making the exact same argument. A chain of transmission.

[00:18:08]>> Chain of transmission. So it went >> [ __ ] You'd have to have written confirmation that that train was never broken. You understand that there's older religions than the Torah, right?

[00:18:17]>> Sure. So let me let me let's talk about Zorastrian oral religion.

[00:18:21]>> Let me let me >> Does that confirm that it's true?

[00:18:23]Because the Zarastrians never wrote down their written tradition.

[00:18:27]>> That's not my argument. Right. my point.

[00:18:28]>> No, but I'm making a historical claim to give you some additional pieces of evidence, >> right? So, I'm what I'm making, let me just to clarify right now, is that the chain, right? Let's say the chain had a 99% chance that it was fabricated. Let's just assume this, right? Let's say it was 99% or even 99.9% the chain was made up. It's still more evidence than what you provided.

[00:18:48]>> No, it's not.

[00:18:49]>> No, it's not. You just you just said let's let's quote if 99% of it was made up. It would be better claimed than what you said.

[00:18:57]>> So again, if you're going to over >> I'd like to repeat that out loud though.

[00:19:00]Is that what you said?

[00:19:01]>> So I'll let you repeat it and then if you don't let me respond, I'm not going to engage. Right. So go ahead.

[00:19:06]>> You said that if 99% of it were false that it would be better evidence than the five books of Moses.

[00:19:12]>> I said for example, if there was a 99% chance, let's say that it was completely fabricated, right? The chain. Let's say it was that high level of a chance that it was actually made of, right? It would still be more evidence than what you provided to substantiate the written Torah being given at Sinai, which was nothing.

[00:19:26]>> Okay. I'm sorry. The collective revelation of an entire one second. This is absurd. No, what you're saying epistemic chain itself, right? An attestation of a chain is much more reliable than what you provided, which is simply nothing.

[00:19:37]>> An attestation of a historical event witnessed by an entire nation versus a chain from one rabbi to the next. Why is that more reliable to you? because mo because it was a chain from one rabbi to the next versus a accepted historical drama that took place in an entire region that was accepted history by the entire region. But the secret transmission of the rabbis is more legitimate to you.

[00:19:58]>> Well, not the secret transmission. It's because the chain itself, right? We can see the names of the people. Number one, we can see number two, the fact >> there's a change from me to Moses to my father to his father. First of all, >> oh my god, let me finish. Okay. Um, again, we can see the names of the people. We can see how it was transmitted. We can see for example the institutions that it was transmitted from right in this chain when we look at for example the evidence you provided which >> so please please you you made a bold claim please show us please tell us.

[00:20:22]>> So again what we have in the chain for example as we can see going all the way back from Moses to Joshua and all the way down to the prophets um as well as the elders and >> no you have only written Torah to confirm that and then in those document it references the five books >> that I can quote for you. Would you like me to read it?

[00:20:36]>> So again there is no chain right that we find let me finish. There is no unbroken chain, for example, that we find in the written Torah that goes all the way down to the present today. Right? Um, and again, if you're going to appeal to the written Torah to provide evidence, this is begging the question, but I'm trying to make my point very clear, right? Even if the chain is completely unreliable, even if the chain has a very high percent chance of being fabricated or of erroring in the the transmission of this supposed chain, right? It's still more evidence than what you provided, which is nothing, right? And therefore, mine is going to be more JTB, which means more justifiable to believe, right? I'll give you an example of this. Can I get in a word? Actually, I have a dis.

[00:21:11]>> You have a coin, right? You have a coin, right? And that coin is like a quarter and you flip the coin, right? And there's a little tiny little weight on the back of the quarter. It's so microscopic. You're still going to choose the quarter when you make the bet because it's still more likely that that thing is true, that that's more evidence um that that it's going to land in that place. Because you provide zero evidence, the most plausible and reasonable decision to make is going to be to follow the tradition that has an ounce of evidence in fact from Sana, which yours does not.

[00:21:38]>> But by your logic, you shouldn't follow any of these because if you don't see if you don't see this as evidence, you should just denounce the Torah and the oral Torah altogether. The reality is we we see this as evidence because of the substance. Can I have that?

[00:21:50]>> Yeah. Because of the substance and the content of the Torah. Okay. That's why Dan said even if the Torah wasn't true, the the truth claims about God and the nature of reality are so true that it that it proves itself.

[00:22:02]>> So give me an example.

[00:22:03]>> Including the fact one second, including the fact that it is accepted world history versus an accepted transmission of of rabbis and institutions. You place more faith in rabbis and institutions over the collective memory and consciousness of mankind where God reveals himself to an entire nation. And that's what's preserved in the memory of the nation and the surrounding nations which you are yet to prove. I place more faith.

[00:22:25]>> Can I can I ask a question just about first of all faith in an epistemic chain right than nothing, right? Because you have no evidence. The only evidence that you have >> you just keep saying that but you don't have any evidence either.

[00:22:35]>> I did.

[00:22:35]>> No, you don't. You're referencing yourself >> of narration which is >> I mean you keep cutting me off, right?

[00:22:42]You've been on a whole rant about a coin and the backside and had no actual correlation to our discussion at all. It would basically be like me like because the sky is blue and grass is green um that your like infallible discussion you know disproves oral Torah and so thus like dude have a conversation with me you know like we're trying to get to common ground right like wouldn't it be the best debate for you ever if you converted us to orthodoxy.

[00:23:05]Uh, sure. Right.

[00:23:06]>> Great. Great. Right. And and and for for like me at least because like I'm a guest on Israel show like it would be nice to give you an alternative thought um to as to like where these things come from. Right now something that we're both both oral and written Torah people are going to be up on a dispute is that we don't have enough evidence to prove that any of this stuff is really real.

[00:23:26]>> Right? That is something that is an outworldly claim towards the Jewish people. Right?

[00:23:33]>> We're choosing a system, right? between two systems.

[00:23:35]>> Got it. So, so I'd like to just talk about the systems and I'll talk about this system, right? I'll show you some evidence in the literature that shows that this system is valid. First of all, you have the Ten Commandments, right, >> as an excellent piece of information that has affected culture, which you can confirm comes from the written Torah.

[00:23:53]>> Sure. The Quran culture, too. How does that show that the Torah is >> even the Quran admits that the Torah is where the Ten Commandments come from?

[00:23:59]Your doesn't seem to want to admit that.

[00:24:01]Does the Ten Commandments come from another piece of literature?

[00:24:05]>> When did I say this? I'm asking >> I got it. Just so so then let me finish.

[00:24:08]Right. Like >> your argument your argument does not follow. Right. Um you you showing the ten commandments have nothing to do with the Torah or giving evidence the Torah is in fact from Sina. This is just like a random assert.

[00:24:17]>> But you don't have any evidence either.

[00:24:18]You're like my dude chain. I have a chain which is more epistemically reliable than what you have which is >> it's not because that chain didn't exist. It didn't even exist up until the Mishna was created.

[00:24:28]>> Dude, it's literally a self reference.

[00:24:29]It's a self-referencing chain. And it's the exact same thing. The rabbis of the Mishna claim that their authority goes back to Moses. How convenient. They're self-referencing their own authority. I would much rather I would I would much rather a document on the caliber of the Torah self-reference itself than rabbis self-reerence themselves for the nature of their chain of transmission and their >> the evidence I'm providing is not for example that they affirm the oral Torah.

[00:24:49]Therefore, it's true. That was the evidence you provided when it came to the Torah. Um the evidence is the fact when you have a written chain right it is more epistemologically justifiable right than simply for example faith or testimony. Well, it wasn't a written a chain. It was an oral chain. That's first of all.

[00:25:03]>> No, no. The chain is written. You can see a written chain.

[00:25:05]>> It's written now. It was oral, right?

[00:25:08]What was written? Moses to Joshua to the prophets to the men of the great assembly. Is this the secret chain you're talking about? What do you What chain?

[00:25:13]>> It's not so secret. You can follow it.

[00:25:16]>> Okay. So, that's not that's they're they're just connecting themselves historically, connecting the dots, saying we followed Moses. Therefore, >> no, no, they're not they're not saying we follow Moses. They show a direct chain of transmission of the Torah from Moses all the way into the right.

[00:25:28]>> I do I do. Let's just say that the Torah >> again again finish point here. I'm not saying that this chain is like very solid sound evidence the Torah is in fact from Sinai but it is more evidence than what you provided which is nothing.

[00:25:40]>> I've actually been your only claim to evidence you that's your only claim to evidence that the chain is so strong that that's the best thing that I have.

[00:25:47]>> This is all I need to provide to win the debate because it's more justifiable to believe than what you have which is nothing.

[00:25:51]>> What >> I mean um like okay right like congratulations you're very very frustrated. Can I get a word out? Thank you for >> Yes. Um I want to just say that like let's just claim like it sounds like your claim is that the only reason that people even have the written Torah is because of the oral Torah. Is that correct?

[00:26:10]>> No. Um >> no no no. Okay. So then >> I say clarify my claim. Right. My claim is that the only way >> I don't want to go back to your entire claim.

[00:26:18]I'm going to clarify what I said. Right.

[00:26:19]The only this is just to make sure you understand. Um, the only way that we can provide an ounce of evidence for the Torah actually being from Sinai is through the tradition which affirms the oral law. Is through the system that affirms the oral law. I'd actually go so far to say that there is no actual evidence to confirm that it's 30 years.

[00:26:36]There's a lot of evidence. There's antiquity. There's a lot of semi-proof, but we can't actually confirm it. If we did, there would be a mass following.

[00:26:44]Like, you know, if you go to Israel, right, and you go to the the old city, right? um like 35% of that is basically a shrine to Christ. And so you can go visit Christ's grave and if you ask a priest over there if Christ is literally buried in that grave, they're going to say yes, his body is there. Wouldn't that be more evidence to Christ? So now you should convert from Judaism to Christianity. It's like or we can have a discussion about how faith and literature affects people and what the whole purpose of your religion is about.

[00:27:11]>> So I'll explain why it's significant to talk about this specifically, right?

[00:27:14]Because >> but I I I want to bring some evidence from the Torah, right? And so like like what what would you say about a line in the Torah? So it's it says like here in in Hazenu, right? So it was that when Moses finished writing the words of this Torah onto a book until their final conclusion, like you're like uh I'm gonna have to go through the Mishna to find out if that's actually confirmable or like do you believe that that literature and those words are are true?

[00:27:40]>> Right. So when we look at like why we should follow a system, we go by evidence. This is with anything, right?

[00:27:45]>> You can't answer my question. You always go back to the evidence thing. I'm I'm willing to even concede that all of this doesn't have enough evidence.

[00:27:51]>> So if we're going to go by Judaism, if we're going to pick a system in Judaism, we're going to go by the system which has the most evidence or has an ounce of evidence of the Turism In fact because your system has no evidence, right? And it's completely >> my system. I didn't make it up. I'm not like the only person on earth.

[00:28:07]Go to like a Messianic church, you know, there's like hundreds of different groups.

[00:28:11]>> I never said you made it up. What I'm saying is that your system is written.

[00:28:13]>> But but you did say we made it up. Like you said, we made it up like 20 times.

[00:28:16]Like the written Torah, we made it up.

[00:28:17]We wrote it like me and Soly here like you said that right. So again >> Okay. So then then why do you discredit the written Torah so much? Like because all we want to do is like >> it's the only way for him to prove the oral Torah.

[00:28:26]>> No, I'm not I'm not discrediting the written Torah.

[00:28:28]>> Unfortunately, that seems to be the direction of this conversation. I wish that weren't the case.

[00:28:31]>> I'm putting I'm putting into question your belief that the Torah is in fact from Sinai because right now we have two sex. We have your >> um my belief that Torah is in fact from Sinai. Do you believe that Torah is actually from Sinai?

[00:28:42]>> Of course we both.

[00:28:43]>> How did we both come to that conclusion?

[00:28:45]>> So mine is by evidence, right? by most systems >> and mine is not by evidence >> and yours is by nothing.

[00:28:50]>> It's by it's by feeling by nothing. But I come I come to you with proof and I said that my evidence is right here. I read the story. I go I saw the land. I read a lot of historians that confirm that this is true.

[00:29:00]>> Right. So so reading reading >> billion followers even have their own variation of this religion.

[00:29:05]>> The Jewish people don't actually follow their own practice.

[00:29:07]>> Right. So reading reading the story of what >> it sounds like you don't know the Torah very well.

[00:29:11]>> Torah just begging the question again.

[00:29:13]Right. So again, I'm waiting for you to actually provide either evidence of orig >> like Moses wrote this Torah and gave it to the kohanim like that. Is that is that good for you? In Deuteronomy, uh for this commandment that I command you today, it's not hidden from you.

[00:29:35]It's not distance. It's not in the heaven for you to say who can ascend into the heaven and take it for us so that we can listen to it and perform it.

[00:29:41]Nor is it across the sea for you to say who can cross to the other side of the sea and take it for us so that we can listen to it and perform it. Rather, the matter is very need near to you. It's in your heart and in your mouth in order to perform it like like because it's written Torah. Like should you just laugh or something?

[00:29:54]>> Like I don't know what like why is this why did you discredit this? Like I just read straight from the literature. Why is that discredited to you?

[00:30:01]>> Right. So the issue with appealing >> because it sounds like that is the position.

[00:30:05]>> Right. So the issue with appealing which which I was trying to clarify to the Torah as evidence that it came from Sinai is because you're committing the fallacy of begging the question.

[00:30:12]>> But you can you can commit to you can uh refer to the transmission of the rabbis as evidence for the transmission. That's not begging the question.

[00:30:19]>> A chain to show to display >> what about the chain from Moses to Jesus? What about the chain from Moses to Jesus? I'm I'm I'm curious. What about that chain?

[00:30:26]>> Let me finish. Let me finish. the claim right of the Torah which is that it was given at Sinai right can be substantiated through for example a chain that is not in the Torah because that's not appealing to the Torah to show the claim is true >> it is a chain it it starts with the 3500y old claim from a literature standpoint to Joshua all the way down to Ezra there's a stream >> okay >> so you don't acknowledge the chain of the Bible you don't acknowledge the chain of history you only acknowledge the chain of rabbitic authority >> I acknowledge the chain of the Bible show me that It doesn't sound like you do though.

[00:30:59]>> Show me >> because I just The entire Bible is maintaining the Torah of Moses.

[00:31:03]Everyone's referencing the Torah of Moses.

[00:31:04]>> Again, you're appealing to the Bible to prove the Bible. That's begging the question.

[00:31:07]>> No, the Bible is the train of transmission. You're appealing to oral Torah to to ver verify oral Torah. Mary Torah. This is not >> But you're you're once the verification is done in your mind. Okay, let's just go there just so we can make some progress on this because this whole like verification system is really crappy.

[00:31:25]You could even argue on both sides, right? I'm willing to take the L there just to make some progress in this conversation. Is that is that all right with you? Can we talk about another subject so I can gain more insight into your understanding?

[00:31:36]>> Right. So, >> okay. So, you're saying okay to that?

[00:31:39]>> No. No. Hold on a second. So, the the purpose of the debate >> So, no, you want to stay on the subject of verification at Sinai?

[00:31:44]>> Yes. And I'll tell you why.

[00:31:45]>> Okay. Got it. So, you don't want to move on from that >> because the topic of this debate was was an oral Torah given at Sinai. Wasn't in fact an oral Torah given.

[00:31:51]>> It's not whether or not oral Torah is valid. I thought that was kind of >> No. No. It was was an oral Torah given outside right now if in fact >> okay >> now now if in fact right um we go by the two systems we're looking at which is your system is written only and excluding the oral Torah we come to a place where we have not an ounce of evidence the Torah is from Sina if we go by the rabbitic tradition right >> the only guy here holding a big thick book like this of evidence is your point dude >> your evidence is circular reasoning but okay again if you're the only sect of Judaism the only system that can has an ounce of evidence of Torah from Sinai is the system that affirms an oral and written tradition. Right? So why should we follow your system which is completely unverifiable and has no evidence?

[00:32:32]>> Again, not my system. And you would have to pull up where you found this oral ideology from which will come from a much earlier and newer book called the Mishna and the Talmud where I'm using this as the information that is older than you and I've already brought >> proof claims that it is an older book.

[00:32:51]So now we have the issue content. When you keep doing I'm trying to clarify this for you like respectfully, but when you keep appealing to the Torah to prove the claim of the Torah, you're begging the question.

[00:33:01]>> I don't know why he thinks that the Orthodox Jews have confirmed that Sinai really happened. Understand that it's a faith. It's a faith. There is no real confirmation. I want you, if that were actual, >> you have just conceded that in your system of Judaism, how you know the Torah is from Sinai is strictly by faith. So, how about this? By faith, the oral Torah is from Sana. Have a good day. By faith, the oral Torah is from Sana. That's not evidence. You've just proven that.

[00:33:28]>> But I want to know what yours is.

[00:33:30]>> You guys keep saying oral Torah. But >> here here's the problem is that is that the written Torah rules out the possibility of an oral Torah when it says that you should follow what is written in this book of the Torah without adding or subtracting and that Moses completed this writing and document. So the very text that you think you are affirming and confirming is denied by this quote unquote transmission of the oral Torah. So the transmission of the entire people of Israel, the entire history of that entire region, that's not enough transmission for you. The only transmission that would verify it is the transmission in Pir Aot where the rabbis arbitrarily trace themselves back to Moses the same way Jesus can trace himself back to Moses the same way Muhammad can, the same way I can. Right?

[00:34:06]So this is this is completely absurd.

[00:34:08]Either you accept the transmission of history as being true history and you see the the quality of the revelation in the Torah and take it on faith.

[00:34:16]>> Proven a story could take place. I'm waiting. Go ahead. Prove a story.

[00:34:19]>> You haven't proven. You haven't done the same thing. So why are you saying that?

[00:34:22]>> There's more evidence than what you have. Which is >> Can you give me that evidence? What is the evidence? I want to hear it.

[00:34:27]>> By the way, just to address what you said. You said that >> you just keep saying oral Torah, but we don't even know what oral Torah is. If I was a viewer, if I was a layman, right?

[00:34:33]like you know you have to like talk to people who kind of have some sort of understanding about these things. You keep saying oral Torah. Where is it?

[00:34:40]>> What is it? What can you point to? Where did you learn about this?

[00:34:44]>> Where did I learn about the oral Torah?

[00:34:46]>> Yeah.

[00:34:46]>> Where did you learn about the Torah?

[00:34:48]>> Uh in the book.

[00:34:50]>> Thank you.

[00:34:50]>> You learned about it from school from your rabbi in another book.

[00:34:53]>> Great. How does that how >> this book is less valid than your book?

[00:34:57]So what book confirms the oral Torah? I want that question answered from you. So my my evidence for the oral Torah being the or the oral Torah being with the written Torah the most plausible system >> wait with the written Torah because it sounds like the written Torah literally doesn't exist without the oral. So where is the oral?

[00:35:10]>> Well, hold on a second. Right. My evidence for the oral Torah with the written Torah being the most plausible position is the fact if you go written only you cannot verify at all the Torah was from >> written only.

[00:35:20]>> Yes. If you go by your system which is the >> So they mean they're intertwined, right?

[00:35:24]>> You cannot provide an ounce of evidence the Torah is from Sina which is what's been going on like your >> but you can with the oral Torah. As I already showed you, you can provide >> show us. You're making claims. You're sitting on the other side. Show me.

[00:35:35]That's what I'm asking you to show me.

[00:35:36]Also, also you you said that the only valid >> You said that the people preserving the Torah preserve the written and the oral.

[00:35:42]But you're in complete denial of the Sody tradition, which denies the rabbitic authority of the Kerite tradition, which denies rabbitic authority. All throughout history, as Dan mentioned, the Torah has either been gone and not followed at all, or there's been detractors from rabbitic authority.

[00:35:55]The rabbis popped up 1500 years after one second. Let me finish my statement.

[00:35:58]And the rabbis popped up 1500 years after Moses claiming to have a direct transmission. And you're believing them, you find their claims to be more believable than the accepted history of all of humanity and the entire people of Israel. And the quality of the revelation in the Torah that supersedes the oral Torah by 10 million named in the name of God. Moses Moshe and Yahweh spoke to Moses saying, "Yet you're going to pretend that your oral Torah, which contradicts the written Torah that says not to add or subtract to it, is somehow more evidence how how that works perfectly fine. somehow more evidence >> if if the are found in the oral Torah were given at Sinai right the 13 principles for example were given at Sinai as law then it's not adding or subtracting to what's >> really I was told I was told not to you can see this at the beginning >> well actually >> the Torah itself says that you may not add or subtract to this and you must follow what is written in this book of the Torah so the Torah itself disproves the existence of an oral Torah are the dead sea scrolls uh before uh Christ >> yeah the sea scrolls and the subu is before the Dead Sea. I just like to make a historical claim for I'm going to hold this. Who wrote the Septuagent?

[00:37:03]>> It was a translation of the Torah to Greek.

[00:37:05]>> By who? By who?

[00:37:06]>> Jewish rabbis present.

[00:37:07]>> It was by the 72 elders that were Pharisees. So if you're going to affirm the transmission of the Septuition, >> what about the Samaritan Torah >> as being reliable, you're going to have to >> My point is that they're all tradition also.

[00:37:17]>> My po My point is that they're all cohesive. The Samaritan Torah is also cohesive. The only thing they change is the location of the temple. Right. So is that show me that the Samaritan Torah has been is the same Torah that was given at Sana by Moses. Show me that that was in fact >> my point is that all of the versions of the Torah that we have dating back thousands of years are all cohesive and and pretty much the same and keep the narratives intact and compact. That's the point. And you're right. There is a there is a gap there is a gap in in um in terms of uh from the time of uh what's called like in terms of actual manuscripts. But again, Ezra, Ezra himself is a a prophet and a scribe in the Torah of Moses. Everyone, David tells Solomon, "Follow the Torah of Moses." Joshua tells the Israelites, "Follow the Torah of Moses."

[00:37:58]>> How do you know what that Torah is? How do you know the Torah you have is in fact that Torah?

[00:38:01]>> Okay. Can I again? Can I just bring up faith? Apparently, you don't really like faith a lot. He doesn't have to moment. One second. One second. Let's just go with the actual pieces of evidence here because you're just referencing oral Torah that it's older.

[00:38:14]that my evidence is that I can claim out loud that it's evidence. Let me get in a word. You have no evidence being given at >> I'd like to get in a word that's not true.

[00:38:23]>> You already conceded your evidence was the Torah itself which is begging the question there is no evidence. There is no evidence the evidence actual due to what history has been able to maintain over time and you look at it from many different angles not just one. So let's start with the actual let's go with the Dead Sea Scroll is before Christ, right?

[00:38:42]Just in a small in a just a small window.

[00:38:45]>> Then you look at the Mishna which comes after which is the first claim to oral Torah being real, right?

[00:38:51]>> And so where did people get the Bible from? They got it from Jews. Wouldn't it make sense that the Jews would maintain the five books of Moses, the written Torah, the way that he wanted it to?

[00:39:00]That it didn't require an oral tradition, but it literally required writing it down over and over again and passing it from one person to another.

[00:39:06]What that is the nature of what we believe in as Jews. We actually believe that so much. But we also add this intertwined thing that by the way according to your oral Torah, if you want to read the introduction to the Zohar, it says that it was so old. It was there by the time of Adam that Adam had it and it went from Adam. It's like, bro, you're literally going to go back to the garden. That's where you are. You talk about evidence. You're in the freaking Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve and the snake. We're here with pieces of literature that have affected all of culture. And you have a streamline. You have a streamline of of the most important thing. You're you're skipping over the most important thing about Judaism, brother.

[00:39:38]>> Evidence >> is what does it do for you? What does it do for the Jewish people? What does it do for others?

[00:39:43]>> I'll wait.

[00:39:45]>> Okay. So, your piece of evidence you provided, as I already showed you, has a 1300 year gap from Sinai, right? A 1300 year gap. Um, which does not show any evidence at all that in fact the Torah was actually given at Sinai. We have today.

[00:39:56]>> But if the rabbis say that their transmission fills the gap, then it's fine.

[00:40:01]>> That was my argument.

[00:40:02]>> That is your argument. Who says, excuse me, who says that the transmission in the first uh paragraph of Avot Mishna is true? The rabbis say that it is self-referencing. It's the exact same argument except you are using self-reerencing human being uh uh really power-hungry maniacs and we're referencing a prophet like Moses who was the greatest prophet that ever lived.

[00:40:21]>> Right. So, so you're we looking at epistemic um ways of transmission, right? And we evaluate them, right? Um I'm not saying because rebbitic Jews believe in the oral Torah, therefore it's true. This was your argument for the written Torah faith. That's ridiculous. That's not my argument. But you're saying the translation >> my my argument is that the fact that we have a chain of narration um and a >> if you give a chain of narration >> and a direct personal attestation this is much more epistemically justified than faith.

[00:40:46]>> You know words. Wow. Excuse me. Are you telling me that there isn'tology?

[00:40:50]>> The of course I know what these words mean. I'm just I just don't feel the need to use stupid words to sound smart.

[00:40:55]>> Israel. What's epology, >> dude?

[00:40:57]>> What's epistemology?

[00:40:58]>> The nature of knowledge.

[00:41:00]>> The nature of how we know. How we know things, Mr. Philosophist.

[00:41:04]>> Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:41:07]>> Oh my god, you got me there.

[00:41:08]>> Okay. So, again, are you going to show evidence of Toris from other than your face?

[00:41:11]>> No, but that's the thing though. I'm willing to attestation. I'm willing to concede. I'm willing to concede. I'm a dumbbell, bro. Right. I run a business.

[00:41:17]I run a couple ones. I help people with the Bible. I get them healthy, right?

[00:41:21]People who are um in addiction, incarceration, and homelessness, right?

[00:41:25]And I provide for people. I have their jobs, right? I also have a family of of other people. I don't have own kids likely like yourself, right? Um but because I don't understand these words, is it does that mean that like you know our point of view is invalid? Does it mean that the written Torah is invalid?

[00:41:39]Because it just sounds like you keep invalidating the written Torah when you're literally sitting amongst two human beings. Two other Jews, let me finish. Two other Jews who actually want to get to some common ground here. And you're like, you can't prove. You can't prove. And your best proof is that we have oral Torah confirmation after the time of Christ until now. We have we have a >> that is the heaviest line of of of self-referencing. And you should you should listen to a little bit about the history. I'm just going to educate you on a little bit of history.

[00:42:06]>> The Jewish people were expelled from the land when when when oral Torah came out.

[00:42:10]We were disgraced all over the world. We were dirty and disgusting. And you actually have great confirmation that we were. It's called Christianity. It says that there were this group of people, Pharisees, who put their washing of the hands above loving thy neighbor as thyself. Adulterous, lustfulness, the murderousness.

[00:42:31]You can't get to the father. Do you affirm this?

[00:42:33]>> Do I affirm? What is that? You go into everything. Are you going to go on a date with a girl and be like, "Do you affirm this? Do you affirm this? Do you affirm that you can't get to the father unless you go through the song?

[00:42:41]>> I don't I don't even believe in Jesus like that. I'm trying to make a point here about what what happened to your belief, the Jewish people.

[00:42:48]>> You don't want to listen about anything else. If it allows me to have a conversation with you, I will literally admit on camera for you that we cannot confirm that Sinai actually happened through written for >> it's not enough.

[00:42:59]>> So >> now can we have a conversation about something else? Can we talk like people or is that something you're incapable of? Because you know how many orthodox people I've went through just like you who can't have a normal conversation.

[00:43:10]You have to understand your indoctrination is real. You're a manifestation of it. I want people to see >> justifiable system to believe. We've already concluded it's going to >> Can you verify? Can you verify? Haha.

[00:43:20]You don't know words like ep epmomology.

[00:43:22]Like come on, dude. Come on.

[00:43:24]>> Epmology.

[00:43:25]>> I can't even say it. I'm a dumbbell, dude.

[00:43:27]>> Thank you for aditting your >> exactly. You can come meet me at my boxing gym, right? Where I give people therapy. Where I teach them the Bible where where people from addiction, incarceration, and and homelessness get healthy. You can come at it from a Christian frame, too. Haha. Haha. Me in America living amongst the Christians, the dumb Christians, and me and my oral Torah.