Discussing the UPCHURCH case on @SplitDifference | does suing for defamation impede FREE SPEECH?

Added: 2026-05-26

[00:00:00]I'm I don't know, it shouldn't be an issue but whatever. Um all righty.

[00:00:05]All right. Why don't you Why don't you ask us the question again?

[00:00:08]All right. So, give a quick a quick synopsis. Go. Do Do you believe that you should be able to sue people for defamation? Yes or no?

[00:00:17]Yes. Yeah, assuming Assuming the bar is met, assuming that you can prove that somebody knowingly lied about you with the intent to Which I feel like knowingly lying about somebody tends to, you know, the the implication there is that they were intending to harm you.

[00:00:33]Like why else would you lie about somebody?

[00:00:35]>> hard to prove though. I think that's what Ryan did though. I What like based off of the video I saw >> So why don't you summarize what he did?

[00:00:43]To me All right, let's do this. In the In the form of defamation, I feel like he defamed the character of that girl's dad and her family.

[00:00:54]>> Cuz >> [clears throat] >> All right.

[00:00:56]Again, sorry.

[00:00:58]He went on a series consistently talking trash about this girl and and her family because the girl went missing, they found her car upside down in a lake or something like that, and said that this girl wasn't even real. That this was like a pigment a pigment of a everyone's a pigment. This is a pigment of everyone's imagination. This is a pigment of the dad's imagination and he's trying to essentially uh make a cash grab. So, and I think that that also gets in the way of helping in that situation because people will be less likely In In the reason, it's not because of his following, it's because of his influence. There's lots of people out here that have a huge following with no influence. Like I have 20,000 subscribers on YouTube, almost 80,000 almost on TikTok. I have no influence. You know what I mean?

[00:01:49]Ryan has influence. He has this cult following that will literally do They'll follow him right off of a cliff, proudly and happily.

[00:01:58]I think that's where the danger comes in as I would call it dangerous. I mean, like what if the situation was something where people could be out be out trying to help find the girl? What if it was one of those situations and he's just like, "Nope, she's not real." And all of a sudden 100,000 people are just like in Nashville or like, "Nah, she ain't real." I think that's where the defamation comes in and also just, you know, the dad asking for help and he's like, "Nope, it's a cash grab.

[00:02:26]That girl isn't real." And he is continuously, even to to till to till this day, there's video of him talking back and forth with the prosecutors and the lawyers. He stands by it. He's like, "All you got to do is show me a birth certificate." And the lawyer pulls out a birth certificate, shows him the birth certificate and he's still like, "Nope, she ain't real. Y'all could be showing me anything." And he's just doing it out of his own will.

[00:02:47]>> I well, I think there's all I mean, you never know. I mean, he could really believe it, but I think there's also a bar for like levels of negligence where like if you're if you've been shown sufficient evidence that where any reasonable person should believe that this person was real and went missing and you're still saying the same [ __ ] then at some point like that ignorance has to falter and you have to be criminally liable if you're doing something that's harming people. So, you think he If he was preventing them from getting uh like GoFundMe and stuff like that then I guess that warrants that makes more sense. If he was like actively telling people not to do it, that makes sense.

[00:03:28]But it it doesn't justify the cost. Uh that's that seems What about the Alex Jones >> I think 7.2 17.5 million dollars. And listen, you'll love this over the way that the Nashville paper described Ryan.

[00:03:40]They didn't say Nashville local singer or Nashville singer. They said Nashville YouTuber hit with the >> [laughter] >> hit with defamation case. What's the guy worth?

[00:03:51]Uh not 17.5 million. Probably a couple of million.

[00:03:54]>> we don't know. Couple of millies.

[00:03:55]>> Well I would assume. I guess I don't The thing is I don't know enough I don't remember that much about it, but the Sandy Hook shooting, the thing that Alex Jones ruined his whole empire That was that whole thing was a farce.

[00:04:09]Well, I don't want to litigate that right now, but since I don't know enough about it, but I mean he had a $1.5 billion judgment against him and like I'm I'm sure it was a similar situation where, you know, he was shown ample evidence and he just kept doubling down, doubling down, doubling down. Wait, he was he was That's not even Well, get your lizard It's freaking out. Oh my god.

[00:04:29]Whoa.

[00:04:31]Damn, that scared me. Have you had that on your shoulder No bearded dragons were harmed in the making of this video.

[00:04:36]Yeah, yeah, the whole time.

[00:04:38]Holy [ __ ] So the the the the Sandy Hook thing, at least the way I remember it, he talked about it he back then he was he was live I think he was going live on radio for hours and hours and hours a day. This was decades ago. And so he would he had segments where he would go on to like back then the Reddit and stuff wasn't really popular, so he would go on it wasn't really well known. So he would go on the internet and talk about internet news.

[00:05:03]And so he that was a segment he had that would just talk about what's the internet saying about current news or whatever. And so he would do a segment about it. It was more of a it was it was like a lot of fun. It's kind of like Art Bell esque.

[00:05:13]>> I don't think that's I don't think that's what happened. Yeah, well I don't I mean cuz there was a whole thing about how like Elon Musk banned him from [ __ ] Twitter and even when Elon Well, sorry, he was banned from Twitter. Elon Musk even after he bought Twitter, I remember this, would not reinstate Alex Jones because Until he learned the until he learned the facts. That's not true.

[00:05:32]Until until Elon was told the facts, that's when Elon reversed it. So he didn't know he was he was unaware. I promise you I do I promise you. So you're saying Alex Jones lost a $1.5 billion lawsuit because he read a Reddit comment? No, that's not what I said.

[00:05:47]say. It wasn't done. So, he would go on to Do you Do you know who Art Bell is?

[00:05:52]It's who It's who like Rogan was inspired by and stuff. Anyway, he had a nighttime radio show that was in Vegas that he did a lot of like paranormal, UFO. He would just talk to callers about random stuff. And it's super famous. Art Bell is super famous.

[00:06:05]Um so, Alex was doing a version of that that was based on the internet. So, he would go on to Reddit or whatever and talk about like what people what the internet was saying about current events. And so, he would report on what the internet was reporting on. And that's when the the Sandy Hook stuff came up about the weird anomalies where there was proven crisis actors involved. There was prove like it seemed like the school was shut down the day that all of that happened. There's a bunch of weird stuff on the internet that they were talking about. So, Alex was talking about that.

[00:06:33]And then that's where that's where everything spun out of control years later. I've never heard that before.

[00:06:38]That is sounds very unlikely. Right. So, then during the court case 20 years later, they wouldn't even allow him to bring up evidence. There was all kinds of weird [ __ ] they >> 20 years later? Yeah, yeah.

[00:06:48]>> Wasn't that long No, it was like 15 The lawsuit was way after the Sandy Hook That's a long time ago. It ended in It ended 10 years after.

[00:06:56]But So, the point is there's a lot there's a lot to that case that you probably haven't looked into that's a complete political hit job. I I I would put a lot of money on what you're saying not being true. Like it would be an such an easy defense to say I was reading quotes from somebody else, you know, this is not my opinion whatever. But I'm really really like quintuple down on this fact that him saying that it was a hoax repeatedly. Like He even admitted He even admitted it was a hoax.

[00:07:24]I don't know. I'm saying he he he admitted he was wrong for thinking it was a hoax. Before the deposition or during?

[00:07:31]That was before cuz he said he did it on Rogan's podcast. Oh, well, that's That should That should That should set I don't I I love you Silver, but I'm pretty I I don't believe I No, I don't think you're lying, but I think you are could be misremembering something cuz it's been so long, but but I'm telling you that that that case is weird. That sounds exceptionally unlikely.

[00:07:52]Do you guys think that people of like like reporters, I guess? Like reporters should like news reporters, internet personalities, do you think that they should be held of higher like like a Well, yeah, absolutely because the harm they can do is greater.

[00:08:12]>> All right.

[00:08:12]>> It's like me punching you in the face versus a [ __ ] Krav Maga expert punching you in the face.

[00:08:18]>> Yes.

[00:08:18]>> Yeah. So, it's a 100% different. And I think I think with that influence, you have to have some sort of accountability.

[00:08:26]You really disagree, man? I I mean, I know that >> No, with what he said, his analogy.

[00:08:31]What? Nelson gave the same analogy. He said it was Mike Tyson. What's What's wrong with the analogy? I mean, it makes perfect sense. Cuz like if that's the whole myth of like you're you if you're a professional boxer, you have registered weapons as hands. That's not true. It's not a real thing. So, like But no, but it is the case that it is the case that you can be charged with, you know, more extreme crimes if you, you know, beat the [ __ ] out of someone and you're a trained professional. No, I that's from what I From what I was I remember Chael Sonnen doing a whole deep dive into this and that's kind of like a it's like a urban legend.

[00:09:04]But regardless, what y'all are talking about is So, I'll I'll put it to you like this.

[00:09:09]Is Fox News, CNN, MSNBC, all the big news stations, right? Should they be criminally charged for lying us into two wars for 20 years? Yes.

[00:09:18]Right? So, so why how come they weren't sued for 1.5 billion that Alex Jones was sued for?

[00:09:22]>> I'm not I don't know why. I And maybe they should have been depending, you know, case-by-case scenario. You know I'm an individualist.

[00:09:31]But I don't know I don't know why. I But all all I'm saying is like with Ryan specifically, he has so much influence. I don't think he should have any influence. I think he's a loser, but he has so much influence over these people that if he didn't get hit with something, it starts to become a really dangerous game. Like, "Hey, you know, he's the type that could take it back to like, well, that's the way it is. Saying meth was bad was in the 1930s. Meth isn't really all that bad.

[00:09:59]You guys should keep on trying it." And there's literally hundreds of thousands of people that would just start doing meth.

[00:10:04]I'm telling >> I have a perfect segue. I have a perfect segue for this conversation. But, I I mean, I completely agree. Like, the level of harm he can do and it needs to be a huge penalty is the problem.

[00:10:13]Because, you know, if it was like a hundred grand or something like that, he'd shrug it off and just keep yapping, you know? But, it needs to be something like extremely substantial for him to actually care about. And I don't think he's worth 17.5, bro. He might be He might have a couple >> he'll get another one, you know? Yeah.

[00:10:28]And but regardless, I mean, you know, they they have ways of settling this stuff, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, they do.

[00:10:34]Well, so what about >> So, he's he hasn't stopped. So, all the stuff he's been claiming about um That's true. Adam Calhoun and the country right. He's been making some crazy claims. That's all warranted for defamation, too, right? Technically.

[00:10:46]>> Well, all right. Yes, I think so. But, certain people aren't the type like me and you were talking about this when we were talking about this whole situation behind the scenes. Some people just aren't really inclined to like, I would not sue somebody for defamation, probably, unless you put PDF file on my jacket.

[00:11:04]>> Oh, I was about to say, you know, >> That's the only time I can really think about it where I would be mad enough and I feel like you have defamed my character. If you were a person of influence and stature, you put PDF file on my jacket with no substantial evidence or proof, I might consider it.

[00:11:19]I don't know why they don't I I don't know why Adam doesn't do that.

[00:11:23]I really don't. I I feel like that's something that he should do. I haven't talked to Adam in months.

[00:11:31]Maybe it's just maybe it's true.

[00:11:34]No. No, I mean I mean there's No. Well, why not sue then? If someone's saying that, why not sue them?

[00:11:39]>> even have any grounds for it. So, it's kind of silly. It's it's almost like I think Adam's just waiting for the day where he can see him.

[00:11:47]Adam's just waiting on the day where he can finally see this dude.

[00:11:50]But I think that would be sad cuz Silly stuff like if you're out here talking about like, "Well, Nelson cheats on his wife all the time." My character will My character is bigger than that.

[00:12:01]But if you're >> Yeah, but what if your wife What if What if she What if Lindsey actually left you? Then yes. Well, Then would you sue?

[00:12:08]Uh I don't know. I would really want to see that person.

[00:12:11]>> [laughter] >> I would really want to see that person.

[00:12:13][gasps] Well, I bro, I mean getting money out of them is better than I mean I I guess depending on what you want to do.

[00:12:19]>> to pay my character, why not, you know?

[00:12:21]I was just kind of raised My parents and my grandparents were just very much like, "That's not the way that we should get money." I don't know why they were like that. Like but they were. It's just the way that they were raised.

[00:12:32]>> also You were also raised a whole of gun like this.

[00:12:36]No, I was My parents were >> Yeah, you were just you were raised by hip-hop. [laughter] Yeah. I'm aspiring to to wear a grill.

[00:12:48]I mean I don't know. If somebody hit you [laughter] with a car, would you sue them? Try to get money out of them?

[00:12:54]If somebody what?

[00:12:56]If somebody hit you with a car. Like but you know, not didn't like hurt you that bad. You know, bruise you up but you know, they were like texting and driving or something. No, I Yes, I would because I'm not suing them.

[00:13:08]I'm suing the insurance company and I feel like they scam us and it's only right that we scam them back.

[00:13:14]What?

[00:13:17]I don't know. Most people uh Are you insured for that? If you hit someone with your car? I guess so. I mean if I don't have I I have a penny in my account, the insurance company has to pay for something. I don't know about the other end of it. Like if you were hit by a quadruple billionaire, then yeah, that person would probably have to come out of pocket, but if you're hit by somebody that makes 30 grand a year with three kids, I don't I don't think that it works that way. They can't pay it.

[00:13:44]I was going to try to show you evidence.

[00:13:45]I got hit by a garbage truck and I should have definitely sued them.

[00:13:50]Did not >> [ __ ] yeah, sue the city, bro. They bent my They bent my Mustang in half in in a neighborhood.

[00:13:57]I I still didn't sue him because I don't know. Just I definitely should have, but the dude that drove the truck fell out of it when he was like, "Oh, my back." I'm like, you [ __ ] You're in a dump truck and you You blew my Mustang in half. Like, how are you hurt? But I I should have on that one. But anyway >> So who who paid for it? Who paid Who, you know, paid for a new car?

[00:14:18]Uh how'd that work out?

[00:14:20]I don't remember how that [ __ ] That was years ago. I don't remember how that [ __ ] went down. I They I know our insurance paid They They were trying to say it was my fault.

[00:14:27]Were you making payments on it?

[00:14:29]The car? Yeah. Yeah.

[00:14:30]>> Oh, well, then you have full coverage. I mean, I'm sure they at least tried to pay the car off.

[00:14:34]>> Yeah, I still remember I don't remember if I >> is you were probably upside down if it was a Mustang.

[00:14:38]They lose a lot of money.

[00:14:39]>> upside down, but >> [laughter] >> Come on, man. I don't I don't I don't buy I'm I'm Jewish when I buy my cars.

[00:14:47]>> [laughter] >> That was funny. Um Yeah, I don't So your take is you think it's justified, Nelson?

[00:14:55]To sue Ryan Upchurch?

[00:14:57]I think so.

[00:14:58]But you think the amount is too much?

[00:15:00]Yeah, I think the amount is too much.

[00:15:02]Okay. Silver, what do you think? Cuz well, the thing is Yeah, the amount The amount's insane. I think that's that's like you're trying to ruin somebody's Like that That is out like paying for like you were saying Nelson on the phone like paying for the funeral and stuff like that like 100% I'm with that. And And he should want to Like if he if he was if he if he realized what he had done wrong, hey, that's on me. Let me do this. Like, you know you know what I mean? Like, if you're a good person at heart, you're not going to double down at that point cuz you see the pain in their eyes. You have a He started all this before he had a child. Now he does. It's like you would you think you would think he would have learned. But to me that shows that shows his character. Once you have a baby girl and you still pursue that the way he did, to me that shows that shows a character flaw.

[00:15:46]So, I think I think well I think you said you almost said like that amount of money is ruining his life. But I think that's fair cuz like isn't he also ruining the family's life by like subjecting them to this like crazy level of harassment from these insane >> No, I think I think I think them losing their kids ruined their life.

[00:16:02]>> Well, obviously he made it worse. He made it worse. Yeah, he's compounding the issue at a time like the worst time in their lives by having a bunch of people harass them and say, "Oh, your daughter isn't dead. She never existed."

[00:16:12]Yeah, yes. And that that is his fans.

[00:16:15]His fans are like that. You know what I mean? I I I reach I try to help them people, man, but they don't listen.

[00:16:23]>> Yeah, I mean I think it's justified.

[00:16:24][ __ ] them. Like, I think if you have a huge platform like like like prank you know, people who do pranks and [ __ ] like that, [ __ ] them, too. Hold them accountable. People are getting away with too much on the internet even in this day and age.

[00:16:35]So, I I do kind of stand by like you have freedom of speech, man, but with influence I feel like Ooh. [ __ ] With influence I feel like you should be careful with it, you know what I mean?

[00:16:50]I said I mean I say yeah, I I I'm always beefing with you privately about stuff.

[00:16:55]I feel like you said that's Well, don't you feel like freedom of speech is a privilege?

[00:17:00]Oh, 100%. Right. No, freedom of speech freedom of speech is supposed to be God-given.

[00:17:05]Mhm.

[00:17:07]Well, I mean technically it's a right, but I think >> Realistically it's not realistically it's a it's a privilege, but it's supposed to be God-given in the Constitution.

[00:17:14]Okay.

[00:17:15]>> It has nothing to do with the government. It's supposed to be God-given.

[00:17:18]Okay. Maybe I'm Maybe I'm putting applesauce up here. I thought that was something Well, I'm pretty sure doesn't it say certain unalienable rights, life, liberty, uh pursuit of happiness? Does it say the [ __ ] uh Does it say the right to bear arms is from God? I don't think so. Yeah, it it talks about it. Yeah.

[00:17:35]Cuz it's it's it's it's to protect it's to protect yours and and theirs.

[00:17:38]It's It's to protect your your family.

[00:17:40]>> I mean, it who It doesn't matter, you know, where where it comes from for being real.

[00:17:44]Um but no, I I think everything like that is a privilege that like you need to use Like we have restrictions on all of our rights for a reason. Like, you know, >> I would still consider that a privilege even if it's if it even if it's of God.

[00:17:57]It would be a privilege from God.

[00:18:00]Where I feel like you need to use it responsibly.

[00:18:01]>> My point My point, yeah, that My point being that if you are if you have a certain amount of influence, you know, you could be you could be tarnishing other people's privilege by leading other people astray.

[00:18:16]Well, here's a question. So, wait, Silver, did you just disagree with my analogy about the MMA guy or Yeah.

[00:18:22]Do you agree that