Cliffe Knechtle Responds to Atheist Insults With Pure Wisdom!

[00:00:00]Albert Camu, the French atheistic existentialist philosopher, wrote a book called The Plague.

[00:00:05]>> The plague strikes the city.

[00:00:10]>> The atheist doctor is going about trying to heal dying people. The priest, because he believes that the plague is God's judgment, says, "No, don't help dying people. The plague is God's judgment."

[00:00:27]Kamu's argument is if you want to be a humanitarian, you have to be an atheist like the doctor >> and you got to fight the plague which is God's judgment in order to promote life.

[00:00:40]The problem is Jesus Christ never taught that. Jesus Christ commands his followers to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the sick and those who are in prison. And even when the Bible does record that God judges, followers of Christ are to be conduits through which God love flows into the lives of hurting people.

[00:01:03]And the solution to overpopulation is not homosexual relationships and abortion and murder.

[00:01:10]The solution is we teach birth control and then we seek to take care of those lives that do exist. We never trivialize human life. So um one question that I have is why would a seemingly like all powerful omnisient god create a book for his people that could ever possibly be misinterpreted and create such you know differences between certain groups of people and that lead to violence and you know wrongdoing all these other types of you know >> God allows us [snorts] to interpret as we freely choose to do. If God were to take away our free will, we would no longer be human. We would be machines.

[00:01:56]Every book you interpret, every book I interpret that we read, the fact that we are can interpret means that we're free.

[00:02:08]>> Okay. Uh I'll move on to my next one. Um so also, why does uh God feel the need to have four gospels? Could he just not get it right the first time or not get one guy to, you know, get it all right?

[00:02:19]I just find that a little weird.

[00:02:22]>> I do not know why God saw fit to have four gospels instead of five or six or seven. I personally am very grateful that there are four gospels because whenever I'm studying an historical person, I want different perspectives. I don't just want one. I want different perspectives. So, I'm very grateful that there are four gospels.

[00:02:45]>> Um, are you ungrateful then that all the other books don't only have one perspective or >> Well, whenever I study history, I want different perspectives. I want different accounts.

[00:02:57]>> Okay. Um, also I noticed you mentioned uh, you know, about Christ's resurrection and all that stuff. And, uh, one one question that that I have is um, I mean, I I personally have never seen what I would call a miracle or or anyone being resurrected or anything.

[00:03:11]However, I see and and hear about people lying every single day. And my question is whether or not you think it's more likely that something that has never been documented um at least in modern times uh as happening is more likely than just a couple of dudes just lied, which we all know happens all the time, every day. It's all around us >> for a variety of different purposes.

[00:03:39]Miracles are impossible if there is no God.

[00:03:44]But if there is a God, then all a miracle is is is the God who created the laws of nature changing a law and performing what you and I call a miracle.

[00:03:55]So just because I haven't seen the Red Sea split or the eyes of a blind man open by a healer doesn't mean that that can't happen.

[00:04:07]Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I I get that. Um Okay. Also people So like people who are born like let's say like the Amazon basin like tribe people who have never heard of Jesus Christ and never do hear of Jesus Christ in their entire lifetime. Like how does their salvation work? Because obviously they're not given the same chance as someone like you know you or I who grows up in a largely Christian society where you hear about Christ and the the good news you know uh almost every day. So how does their salvation work? Their salvation, my understand works just the same way the salvation of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Rahab, a gentile prostitute works.

[00:04:44]God holds us responsible not for that which we do not hear about, do not know.

[00:04:48]God holds us responsible for what we do know. And Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, and Rahab, the gentile prostitute are going to be in heaven, the Bible promises. Not because they put their faith in Christ. They never heard the words Jesus Christ.

[00:05:04]>> Okay? But they were Old Testament figures who also had their own means for I mean I'm not completely familiar with what it was but didn't you have to sacrifice animals in order to be become clean in the eyes of God and things like that and uh those were instructions that God gave specifically to those people to do in order to you know meet his covenant or whatever right I mean what about people who have who have never heard of like the Abrahamic God and uh in in the Bible right I mean God comes down and speaks directly with those people Abraham Moses you you know, all of those figures. And I've never heard of God coming down and actually speaking to anyone, like at least not in my own mind.

[00:05:41]>> Well, just study anthropology. It's real clear. Every culture around the world has some basic understanding of a supernatural God.

[00:05:51]>> Okay?

[00:05:52]>> God has hardwired us in such a way that all of us long to know God.

[00:05:58]>> Okay. Um, another one I have is that uh I would ask whether or not you agree with the fact that so I I was born in Atlanta and uh I grew up in a largely Christian household and I was a Christian for a long time and um I believe that one of the reasons why I was such a Christian for a long time is cuz I was exposed to it virtually from birth and then had those beliefs you know um compacted over the years. And my question is, if God is, you know, proposed to be a just God, how is it fair that someone born in, say, Saudi Arabia into a Muslim family, uh, who's taught all these Muslim views their entire life, you know, if you tell them about Christianity, I feel like they're going to be a lot less likely to convert to Christianity if they're already a devout Muslim than they would be had they've been born in a Christian family.

[00:06:44]So, how is that? Don't you think that that's sort of naturally unfair that certain people are given these I guess advantages in order to come to believe in Jesus and and you know the the Christian faith overall versus any other faith or atheism. [screaming] >> Well, the great news is that God loves all of us and by his spirit he reaches out to all of us. [snorts] Secondly, God has obviously given us a free will and you've exercised that free will. You tell me that you used to be a Christian, now you're not. So, you grew up in a Christian home and now you're not a follower of Christ, which means you've exercised your free will and chosen to walk away from Christ.

[00:07:22]>> But don't you think uh that it would be easier for a person to become a Christian who has no preconceived notions about God or the afterlife or anything versus someone who has been taught their entire life that this is the way it is and you know this is what you need to believe because this is what your parents believe, this is what your society believes, etc. Sure, there are certain advantages to growing up in a certain part of the world, but I think Jesus answers the question you're raising in a very direct way when he points out in Luke 12 that we're not going to be judged according to what we do not know. We're going to be judged according to what we do know.

[00:08:02]It's in Luke 12. Jesus says in verse 47, "That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. For from everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded. And from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be required." which means we're all going to be judged by God uniquely, fairly, and justly based on what we have, not based on what we do not have.

[00:08:39]>> Okay. Um I I'll just move on cuz my my understanding was slightly different about that whole thing because I mean isn't at the end of the day whether or not you accept I mean in today's society like New Testament uh post New Testament uh isn't the whole thing whether or not you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior you go to heaven and if you don't you go to hell regardless of any life experience you've had or any you know >> extenduating circumstances.

[00:09:08]Okay, I understand what you're saying and I understand what you've been taught, but I would like you to read uh in Genesis where Abraham meets a man named Melkisedc.

[00:09:21]All right? [music] And uh Abraham talks with Melkisedc and becomes so convinced that MelkiseDC really knows God that he adopts Melkisedc's name for God.

[00:09:36]I think that underlines the point that God loves all of us and reaches out to all of us by his Holy Spirit. And then we have to choose what we're going to do in response to that.

[00:09:48]Well, how can you know that if something like that, like let's say you make that decision, how do you know if that truly is God speaking to you through this other person or uh to speak sort of from your realm of thought that's the work of the devil or you know some malevolent force that's trying to deceive you or how how could you possibly differentiate where that is coming from?

[00:10:08]It's called self-reflection.

[00:10:10]It's called self-perception.

[00:10:13]It's called analyzing your motives and asking yourself the hard questions. What is really driving me? Do I really want to know God or just do I just want to use God? Often people say to me, "Cliff, I'll tell you why I can't believe God exists." Because I prayed [music] and I didn't get what I prayed for. Really fascinating view of prayer.

[00:10:36]>> I don't I guess I don't feel like I'm I'm running away from it. I just you know I haven't seen any any concrete information or facts that you know lead me to believe one way or another. You know I know I know morally what's right what's wrong but I just you know I I like with the instance of like Muslim adults or Hindu or or whatever that you know for for believing a certain way but yet being a good person in your life isn't isn't good enough. And I think in the eyes of someone who's passing judgment that that almost puts him in a fallible situation, gives him human characteristics, but he's supposed to be infallible. I mean, how do you how do you say what's what's right and wrong, you know, for when you're doing what's right, you know, but it's wrong because you didn't believe. I I just it doesn't make sense to me. It seems like a human characteristic to be arrogant almost. If we he's drawing us to us that he he wants the attention he wants you know to come be a part of it or he has love then you know then there must be anger and evil on the other side which we see in our world you know how how is he all love and nothing else because one can't exist without the other I mean I I just >> it baffles me >> okay God is not just all love God is also just if anybody thinks that they can love and then not be angry when the person that they love is murdered then they don't know what love is. Cuz if I love you and someone comes up and begins to exploit you, the appropriate response is anger, moral outrage, a demand for justice, that you be treated justly.

[00:12:05]>> Yeah.

[00:12:06]>> So God's anger is not a statement that he doesn't love. God's anger is a statement that he does love and he is abhorrent of the way we dehumanize each other and degrade each other.

[00:12:19]So God's >> what I'm saying isn't that adding human characteristic to to a you know an obnive excuse me an infallible you know being like I I just don't understand how how that our you know emotional states can apply to something so magnificent that that it would be even part of the equation.

[00:12:38]>> Great point. That is the mystery of the Bible when it says we're created in the image in the likeness of God.

[00:12:47]You can love. Why? Because God is a God who loves. And when he created you, he gave you the innate ability to love.

[00:12:56]Now, part of love is when your loved one is being manipulated and ripped off. You reel back with moral indignation, saying, "That's wrong. That's not right.

[00:13:06]I'm angry that you would dehumanize this person this way." Now, that's also a reflection of God's nature. God is angry over evil.

[00:13:16]Why? If you love somebody and and they're ripped off and you just sit back and say, "Oh, well, I just love," that's not real love. If you really are concerned about someone about their well-being and they're ripped off, you've got to be angry. Otherwise, you got to go back and question the genuiness of your love.

[00:13:34]>> Okay? But but like when you come back to fairness say like you know if you if you're condemned to hell like I said living a good life but then in and the in front of you know the judgment that you're condemned to hell because of something that doesn't seem very fair. I I don't I don't see how you place that as as a fair fair rational decision of somebody that would love, >> you know, to say that, you know, you did well, but almost, >> you know, like, >> okay, >> it seems it seems like a question of arrogance, and arrogance in itself is is is a foul.

[00:14:05]>> Good point. Great point. I like your [music] thinking. All right.

[00:14:10]I wish that I could stand here and tell you the reason I'm going to heaven is cuz I'm a good guy.

[00:14:17]But if I told you that, sir, I'd be lying through my teeth.

[00:14:21]I am not this good guy that I wish you would believe that I am. I have a problem with evil.

[00:14:27]My favorite episode of uh 60 Minutes is when Mike Wallace interviews Yil Denure, survivor of Dawan Ashvitz.

[00:14:40]During the interview, Mike Wallace shows Yihil Denure the film clip where Yhiel Denure walks into the courtroom where Adolf Ikeman, the Nazi henchman, is being tried and they watch as Yhil Denur walks to the front of the courtroom, stands in front of Adolf Ikeman behind the plane of glass and suddenly Yhiel Denur begins to weep uncontrollably and he begins he collapses to the ground weeping and at that point Mike Wallace looks him in the face and says, "Well, be overcome with hatred for that man and grief over what he did and Yahel Denor said no when I looked into Adolf Ikeman's face I began to realize this is a normal man there's a bit of Adolf Ikeman inside of me that's good you healed Denure that's exactly Cliff's problem yes at times I do good yes at times I love my wife and I take care of my children but But at other times, I'm selfish. I'm greedy.

[00:15:42]I'm mean. I'm lustful. I'm arrogant. I am [music] a sinner. And for that, I deserve God's judgment. There's only one reason, sir, I'm going to heaven. And that's because God loves this sinner so much. He sent his son Christ to bleed and die on a cross to forgive me, to take this punishment that I deserve and to forgive. You see every time.

[00:16:04]>> So, so, so if you eliminate all those things, lust, greed, all all these things that you say might be a vice for yourself.

[00:16:09]>> Yes.

[00:16:10]>> But you can't be forgiven for not accepting Jesus Christ.

[00:16:13]>> That's unforgivable.

[00:16:14]>> If you ask him for forgiveness, forgiveness is not something that God forces on any of us.

[00:16:19]>> So, so, so say like, you know, I live my whole life. I get to that point and I'm like, "Oh, I get it now. There you are.

[00:16:25]All right. Well, I'm sorry. And I can may I be forgiven for for not knowing throughout my lifetime and not not accepting it. But [music] you know obviously it's right here in front of me. You know may I be forgiven or is that is it too late at that point?

[00:16:39]>> Too late.

[00:16:41]>> Why then how's that fairness in the [music] judgment?

[00:16:45]>> Okay. All right. The answer is because life is the time that God has given you and me to decide whether we want to spend eternity with God or eternity separate from him. GK Chesterton, the great English thinker, put it this way.

[00:16:57]>> But but then but you're not you're not just being separated from from God.

[00:17:01]You're being associated with say Satan.

[00:17:04]Correct. So I mean you're not just like removed. You're not just stuck in purgatory or something like that for all time where you're just in an absence of meaning. You you you go to a place of damnation of of torture and hatred >> or annihilation.

[00:17:18]>> Or annihilation.

[00:17:19]>> Right? So you're not having dinner with Satan every night.

[00:17:22]>> You're probably getting annihilated eventually.

[00:17:25]You see, hell, read the gospels. Jesus doesn't give us a photograph. You know, he talks about outer darkness and then he talks about fire. Well, how do you have fire and outer darkness at the same time? So, you got to be real careful that you don't put together a photograph of hell. I can't I can't describe for you exactly what hell is. But I do know that Jesus used the most horrible language imaginable to describe it. So, I can promise you, sir, to be honest with you, it's one of the things that motivates me to stand out here because I don't want you or anybody else to go to hell. I hate that thought.

[00:17:56]>> Yeah. Well, I don't think any of us would wish it, you know, if if that was the case. I don't think anybody like, "Ah, I wish I hope you go to hell." You know, like >> Exactly. Good. Okay. But you see, sir, the problem is I've done [music] evil.

[00:18:08]And because God is good, I have earned separation from God. I've earned God's punishment. I've earned hell. I so so but I I but I guess what I'm saying is that I don't I don't believe that it's fair that say I go out and I I'm greedy every day. I'm selfish. I lust. I have, you know, sex with multiple women every day in day out. I do drugs. I do that.

[00:18:29]But I've accepted Christ. But I'm going to go out and do these things anyways.

[00:18:33]But, you know, towards the end of it, I'm just going to say, you know, may I be forgiven for all that I've done wrong and be truly remorseful for it. You know, yet I've lived a whole life of sin and be forgiven for those things, but but accept it because of my acception of Christ.

[00:18:49]>> Good. But you know what the word is for that person you've described?

[00:18:53]>> What a a hypocrite.

[00:18:55]>> Yeah.

[00:18:56]>> Hey, bud. I I would really like to be your friend 30 years from now. Just before I check out of here, I'd really like to be your friend.

[00:19:04]>> Yeah.

[00:19:04]>> Well, you better not be hoodwinkedked by that one. I'm a phony through and through. Hey God, I'd really like to be your friend 30 years from now. Wow, you're playing Russian roulette with your soul.

[00:19:18]>> That's that's hypocrisy now. Yes. Does Jesus Christ accept us at any point when we genuinely ask him for forgiveness?

[00:19:25]Yes. But the operative word there is genuine. And you and I both know that if you play the hypocritical game long enough, you lose touch with who you are.

[00:19:33]You've lied to yourself about yourself so much you totally disconnect from who you are as a person.

[00:19:41]You've played a horrible game of hypocrisy. That's why Jesus reserves some of his most scathing words for the religious hypocrites. Oh, you know why I'm going to heaven? Cuz I'm better than you. Oh yeah, I got news for you. Christ says you're going to hell, buddy. Until you wake up and start smelling the coffee and realize that you need God's grace, his help, you ain't no candidate for heaven.

[00:20:05]And that's why he went after those religious hypocrites cuz they were playing Russian roulette with their soul.

[00:20:12]>> Well, well, I don't I I got explain to me the need the need to to for God. I mean, if we're given free choice and everything and we we can do what we like and like I said, do right, >> you know what? I don't I I don't understand where I would need God to make that happen.

[00:20:28]>> Good.

[00:20:30]>> I mean, I I I don't get it.

[00:20:33]>> Well, death is pretty powerful, >> huh?

[00:20:35]>> Death is pretty powerful.

[00:20:36]>> Wait, but it's it's it's it's coming for all of us, you know.

[00:20:40]>> So, the question is, is there life after death? And the only way there can be life after death is if there is some type of supernatural God who gives it to us. If there's no supernatural God, there ain't no life after death. That's for sure. Right. Well, I mean, don't we just all decompose and come come back in another form of life that breeds into life since it's all one cycle of energy?

[00:20:59]I mean, wouldn't that just wouldn't that be an afterlife in itself?

[00:21:03]>> Okay, that that is exactly right. If there is no God, if there is no God, we die. We become fertilizer. Maybe we can help flowers bud a little more beautifully, but there ain't no meat coming back. That's for sure.

[00:21:17]>> Jesus Christ was dead. He rose from the dead. Well, I mean, we pass on our genetics on to our children. I mean, that's that's that's, you know, I am my my past, you know, fathers and mothers, you know, like they live on through me.

[00:21:31]So, that that's an afterlife in itself in a sense. But I like what Woody Allen said. Woody Allen said, "Who cares about living on in the minds of my fans? I'm interested in living on in my apartment."

[00:21:44]>> Well, I understand, Woody Allen. Yeah, you're right. I have three sons. I'm probably have some grandchildren one day.

[00:21:51]>> But the question is, is it possible for me, Cliff, to have life after death or not?

[00:21:57]>> And obviously be a very comforting thought, >> but I I there's there's no one to say that there has been.

[00:22:03]>> Okay, good. That's where Jesus Christ steps in. He makes these ridiculous claims during his life. I am the resurrection of the life. He who believes in me will live even though he dies. Well, who do you think you are, Christ? But then he dies and comes back from the dead. And that blows his doubting Christdenying disciples right out of the water. When they see Christ risen from the dead, they put their faith in him and they die for him. Whereas before his resurrection, they betrayed him, deserted him, denied him. His bravest follower, Peter, denied knowing him three times before he was crucified. But after he rose, man, Peter stood before the Roman soldier. And the Roman soldier said, "Say Caesar is Lord and live or else maintain that your Jesus is Lord, that he's risen from the dead and we'll kill you for it." And Peter said, "I'm sorry. I've seen him risen from the dead. He's Lord." And he got crucified upside down.

[00:22:56]>> I mean, I see that's that's that's something obvious and just like I mean, if we were to sit here and say one of those people earlier that you just went whacked and didn't get punished for and then we all turned around and they were just like and pop back up, I might be able to, you know, believe that. But I mean, we're talking thousands of years that or hundreds of years that, you know, we're that the stories just carried on. But like I I I I f I fail to see the miracles like that happen that would suggest that, you know, that I should I should believe a certain way.

[00:23:26]>> Good. But please remember, the Bible is like ESPN highlights.

[00:23:32]The Bible records miracles, but it's not saying, "Oh, miracles just happen every day all the time." It's not the point.

[00:23:38]The point is because there's a supernatural God, miracles can happen, but they don't happen all the time. All right? They do not happen all the time.

[00:23:46]That's why we call them miracles. Second point is, you're absolutely right.

[00:23:51]That's why you got to figure out, are the gospels historically reliable?

[00:23:54]Because if this guy rose from the dead, even though you live 2,000 years after him, you can find out historically that he did rise from the dead >> or that he didn't. That's why you got to figure out are these gospels reliable when they claim to give us eyewitness reportage that the dead Christ really rose from the dead or is it mythology?

[00:24:13]Well, lots of myths going around.

[00:24:15]>> So, is it mythology? And what becomes clear is is that the authors of the gospels and Peter understood the difference between mythology and historical narrative. Why? In 1 Peter 1:16, Paul Peter writes, "We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of him."

[00:24:39]>> So Peter was fully aware of the fact there's a lot of mythology, a lot of cleverly invented stories floating around out there. This is not what we're telling you. We're telling you the historical facts about this Jesus of Nazareth. So they he understood the difference between the two. Um, you say that God is loving a person.

[00:24:58]>> I'm trying to understand it because if God is such a loving person and he's more powerful than Satan or whatever, why does he allow people like your best friend to die on? He trying to prove something like I kind of understand how he allows Satan to to to kill your friends off they're your best friends.

[00:25:16]You know what I mean? I'm trying to understand that point. A >> very difficult question. That's probably one of the most difficult questions which is if God's so loving and if God's so powerful then why is there so much suffering evil and death ultimately sir I do not know why God allowed suffering evil and death for thousands of years philosophers and theologians have struggled with that question they've never come up with an ultimate answer and I'm not going to be able to ultimately answer you I don't know but as a Christian I have to Think first point in Genesis chapter 1 we read God created and God saw that it was good and the little phrase God saw that it was good is repeated and repeated and repeated in Genesis chapter 1. The point is made simply when God created he did not create evil. He did a good job. But in Genesis chapter 3 we read how human beings rebelled against God. And that is where evil, suffering and death entered the experience of humankind.

[00:26:21]Now when we pee human beings told God to take a hype, he partially honored our request, took a step back from planet earth and havoc, chaos, injustice, unfairness erupted.

[00:26:35]Which means you and I were not born into a fair world. You and I are born into an unfair, unjust world. Not because God created it that way, but because we free autonomous individuals told God, "Get out of my life. God took a step back and it opened Pandora's box. All kinds of havoc and unfairness broke loose.

[00:26:57]Genetic disorder, tidal waves, viruses.

[00:27:02]Creation began to come apart."

[00:27:06]Now it seems to me the bottom line question is does God give a rip about suffering dying people? The great news of Jesus Christ is God is a suffering God and in Jesus he bled and died on a cross to provide the ultimate solution for suffering and death. forgiveness and eternal life in heaven where there will be no more still birth, no more HIV, cickle cell anemia, paralysis, cancer, heart failure and death, but eternal life in the presence of God. So I do know that God has given us the ultimate solution for suffering and death.

[00:27:41]Forgiveness and eternal life in heaven where there will be no more suffering, no more death.

[00:27:47]>> Then I want to know why did he come back? Why did uh Satan get kicked out of heaven or whatever? Get kicked out and come down here. Why did they kick Why did he kick him out there for? Come down here and bug us all day long.

[00:28:02][laughter] >> Okay, good question.

[00:28:04]>> I do not know why God allowed Satan to tamper with us, but I lean towards believing that it has a lot to do with the whole issue of free will. And God, it respects our individuality and takes us seriously.

[00:28:19]>> Why is it more rational to believe that [clears throat] God exists and that he doesn't?

[00:28:22]>> Okay. All right. Good. Thank you for asking that. Why do I feel it's far more reasonable to believe that God exists than to believe that God does not exist?

[00:28:34]For the following reasons. First point, I cannot prove to anybody here that you have a rational mind.

[00:28:44]But the order of the way you speak, the order of the way you dress convinces me that between your two handsome ears there is a rational mind.

[00:28:55]So although I cannot prove that you have a rational mind, the evidence of the way you articulate so clearly, so cogently, [snorts] the evidence of the way you dress in such an orderly way convinces me that indeed you have a mind.

[00:29:08]Similarly, the evidence of the order and design of the human eye, the central nervous system, the quote laws of nature unquote, convinces [clears throat] me that it's far more reasonable to believe that behind this cosmos there's an intelligent mind, than for me to believe that behind the cosmos there's no intelligent mind.

[00:29:25]>> Why does the cosmos seem orderly to you?

[00:29:28]There's only one civilized planet Earth that I mean, >> if you go to Jupiter or something, it doesn't seem too orderly.

[00:29:36]>> Good question. Why does the cosmos seem orderly to me? I'll tell you why. Cuz my brother's a transplant surgeon at the University of Wisconsin Medical Center.

[00:29:44]And I can promise you, if he transplants a liver for a heart or a kidney for a lung, he will face a malpractice suit second to none.

[00:29:57][laughter] You and I know very, very well that we believe in the order and design of the human body. And that's why we go to doctors when we're really sick, cuz we're convinced that those doctors have studied the amazing order and design of the human body. That's why we pay as much money as we do.

[00:30:14]So for someone to try and argue there is no order and design to the human body to the world that we live in, I would say, "Okay, fine. Then don't go running to a hospital when you get really sick."

[00:30:27]>> So you're saying basically that human beings imply a designer because I'm ordered. I imply someone who has designed be >> correct.

[00:30:34]>> But doesn't a designer have to be designed too unless he's not ordered?

[00:30:38]>> Okay, good question. The question is, well, doesn't this designer, this intelligent mind have to be designed as well? Obviously, the Bible answers that question by saying God is eternal.

[00:30:51]Now, intellectually, I don't know about that. That's a little hard for me to swallow. What helps me is to consider the options to the question, what is eternal? What was around in the beginning? I only know four options. If you know of another one, please tell me.

[00:31:06]First option, in the beginning, there was nothing. That great philosopher Mary Poppins answers that first one beautifully when she sings nothing comes from nothing. Nothing ever could. You never get something from nothing. It's impossible.

[00:31:25]Second option in the beginning there was matter and energy.

[00:31:30]The reason I cannot accept that is because my experience of love, justice, moral indignation over atrocities convinces me there's a lot more to reality than matter and energy. There are real values, intangible, unseen values that I experience every day. Very big part of my life. There's more to reality than matter and energy. My experience confirms that every single day. Third option. In the beginning, there was an intelligent mind created this complex watch, stepped back and could give a rip. That's dism there's an intelligent mind creates the complex cosmos, but actually loves you and loves me. You and I matter to him.

[00:32:19]That is what Jesus Christ insisted was accurate. And all these four options are equally rational.

[00:32:26]>> Equally rational.

[00:32:27]>> Yeah.

[00:32:27]>> Something comes from nothing.

[00:32:30]>> Well, uh, believing in a superior being that's eternal. I don't like like you said, uh, something coming from nothing.

[00:32:37]Well, you don't see it all around you.

[00:32:38]So, you It's probably not true. Could be, but it's probably not >> is the way I understand it. Thank you.

[00:32:44]Well, sure. I I don't see anything eternal around me. It could be true that there is a god, but by the same logical consistency and see it around me. It's never occurred in nature. Probably not.

[00:32:55]It's equally rational that that something comes from nothing than that there is a god.

[00:33:00]>> No, it is not at all.

[00:33:01]>> Well, where have you seen an eternal being? How how's that consistent with what what what your life says?

[00:33:07]>> It's real simple. If I take you to Mount Rushmore and you and I stand there and we look up at Mount Rushmore and I say, "Wow, isn't it incredible the way the water carved out the heads of Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, and Roosevelt?" That is an amazing accident up there on Mount Rushmore. You would be outraged.

[00:33:27]If you go down to breakfast in the morning and your cereal box of alphabets has fallen over and right in front of your chair are written the words, "Please wash the dishes." It'd be outrageous to think that the letters just fell into order that way. Every time you and I see order and design, if we push it back far enough, there's got to be some type of intelligent mind behind it all.

[00:33:55]That's a no-brainer. the building.

[00:33:59]I mean, is it plausible to believe that that's a result of a cyclone passing through a brickyard? No. There's got to be an architect in a builder behind that building.

[00:34:08]>> Wait a sec. The reason you discounted I, you know, I agree with that, but the reason you discounted something coming from nothing because you said it's not consistent with what you see around you.

[00:34:19]>> Similarly, an eternal being is not consistent with what we see around us.

[00:34:23]I'm not saying how >> how you seen an eternal being?

[00:34:26]>> No, I've never se Have you ever seen love?

[00:34:28]>> No, I haven't.

[00:34:29]>> No, you haven't. So, what's your point?

[00:34:32]>> My point is believing in Okay. Do you believe uh when you say God, I assume you mean someone who's eternal and uh all powerful, >> right? I don't see anything.

[00:34:40]>> I am just No, forget about eternal. That was another issue you you you introduced into our discussion. The first question you asked me was why do I believe in God?

[00:34:50]I was answering that question and you interjected the issue of eternality.

[00:34:54]>> I thought that was implied in in in >> No, it's not implied. You asked me why do I believe there's a God. My first piece of evidence is because 100 times out of 100 in my experience of life, order and design never come about by accident. They only come about as a result of an intelligent mind bringing that order and that design together. I never once mentioned eternality.

[00:35:15]>> Yeah. But the notion of of the incredibility of that situation of a high order against a background of disorder only makes sense cuz you have that background of disorder. What other universe are you referring to when you evoke the uh incredibility of the high order of this universe? What's your background comparison? Just speculation, imagination.

[00:35:35]>> No, my background evidence is comparing UT Austin with Texas A&M.

[00:35:41]>> Lots of order here. Lots of chaos in College Station. Be serious for a sec.

[00:35:46]>> I I'm having a hard time taking you seriously, your line of thinking right now. You got to be kidding me. I don't have to see a cosmos where there is no order at all in order then to understand that I have order here. That's totally fellacious thinking.

[00:36:00]I live in this world and in this world there's a lot of disorder and a lot of chaos and there's a lot of order. And from my experience, I know that every time I am confronted by order in this universe, in in my universe that I live in, my corner, it comes about as a result of an intelligent mind. I don't have to experience some cosmos where there's no order at all in order to understand that I've got order here.

[00:36:24]That's cuz you're so tied up in your interpretation that you haven't really examined your basis for it.

[00:36:28]>> No, it's because you're playing an intellectual game that I refuse to jump into with you.

[00:36:31]>> You're making a bad analogy. the analogy of an ordered universe versus some kind of whatever >> being it's not a totally orderly universe. There's a lot of chaos in this universe. There's a lot of chaos in his life. There's a lot of chaos in my life.

[00:36:46]There's a lot of order in his life.

[00:36:47]There's a lot of order in my life. All I'm saying to him is, "Sir, check it out. The order that you see, does that order come about by chance or does it not? Take 10 pennies, number them 1 to 10, drop them in your left pocket, pull them out sequentially 1 to 10. I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for you to pull it off.

[00:37:03]The shirt that you wear, does it come out of a tornado passing through a cotton field? Or does it come about as a result of an intelligent mind, a tailor putting your shirt together? That's all I'm appealing to. Your experience of life. Now, you're asking me to experience a life in a universe where there is no order, to really understand chaos. I can't do that. I can't base my decisions on that. That's why I gave you the lousy illustration of College Station in Austin, cuz you're you're raising a ridiculous point.

[00:37:30]>> Totally absurd. You were talking about the miracle of an ordered universe. No, I wasn't.

[00:37:36]I was asking the question, is it more reasonable to believe that behind order and design there's an intelligent mind?

[00:37:42]Or is it more reasonable to believe behind order and design is chaos and chance? All I asked you to do.

[00:37:48]>> But how are you grounded in being able to say that this universe is ordered and designed?

[00:37:52]>> I answered that.

[00:37:53]>> No, you didn't. Yes, I did.

[00:37:54]>> THE WHOLE ISSUE IS DESIGN. You're assuming design.

[00:37:57]>> I'm not assuming design. My brother transplants kidneys and livers into bodies that have failing kidneys and livers. And if my brother goes into a human body and puts a liver where a heart should go, he will be sued out of his practice.

[00:38:12]>> That's right. That's an ordered system.

[00:38:13]>> THAT'S RIGHT. IT IS.

[00:38:14]>> But how does that prove the existence of Yahweh? I don't see the connection.

[00:38:17]>> That was not the question. The question is, why do you believe that God exists?

[00:38:22]And I said, "The first reason that I believe God exists is because it is far more reasonable for me to believe that behind order and design there's an intelligent mind. Then it is reasonable for me to believe behind order and design is an accident.

[00:38:35]>> It's reasonable because you're making a bad analogy.

[00:38:37]>> It's no bad analogies.

[00:38:39]>> You're making a analogy between the universe and relations within that universe.

[00:38:45]>> What I'm telling you is the only way I can make decisions is by looking at my experience in life and by using my mind." And you're asking me to have an experience outside of this universe.

[00:38:54]That's intellectually dishonest. THAT IS SO intellectually dishonest. It's irrational. Totally irrational. I can't have an experience outside of this universe. Cuz guess what, guys? I live in this universe. I don't live outside of this universe.

[00:39:07]>> That's my point.

[00:39:08]>> You can't even have an experience.

[00:39:09]>> WHAT'S YOUR POINT? YOU HAVE NO POINT.

[00:39:10]>> THEN HOW CAN YOU STEP OUTSIDE OF THIS UNIVERSE AND evaluate its design, master? You see what I'm saying?

[00:39:16]>> No, I don't see what you're saying. In nature, I see order and design. And now I've got to ask him the question, is it more reasonable to believe behind order and design is an intelligent mind or is it more reasonable to believe behind order and design is an accident? That's a no-brainer, guys. A nobrainer.

[00:39:35]>> Talk about people are judged differently based on their knowledge, right? Um, and so like someone who believes in a different religion, Judaism or whatever, um, they believe that they're truly finding God through through their religion, sir.

[00:39:49]>> Um, they're doing well. They live a healthy life. They live a good life by God's standards.

[00:39:54]>> Um, and they truly believe that they're finding God through their religion.

[00:39:57]>> And they find out come judgment that, all right, >> they kind of put their put all their money on the wrong horse.

[00:40:05]>> Uhhuh. Are they going to be judged in the same light as those that followed God appropriately? Like, okay, I got to divide that excellent question into two parts. The first part, those people who have heard about Christ reject him and follow some other religion versus those people who have never heard about Christ and who follow some other religion.

[00:40:32]>> Got to divide that there.

[00:40:33]>> All right. Now, In John chapter 3, beginning at verse 16, going through verse 18, Jesus says, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." For God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Now he says, "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only son." But I'm just the mailman delivering you Jesus mail. That's what he said.

[00:41:15]So I think it's rather clear that if a human being is exposed to Christ and says no, they are rejecting God because Jesus claimed to be God in human form.

[00:41:27]Secondly, they're rejecting God's offer of forgiveness for he insisted that when he bled and died on the cross, it was to pay the penalty for human sin. Which means they're choosing to live their life separate from God and they will have to pay for their own sin, their own wrongdoing.

[00:41:42]Now, what about the person who's never heard about Christ? I do not know because Christ never specifically addressed the question.

[00:41:52]But I think what that question that you're raising is getting at is, is God going to rip people off? Is God going to arbitrarily send people to hell? And the clear answer to that is no way.

[00:42:06]The clear answer to that is Hebrews chapter 11 lists names of people who will be in heaven who obviously never heard about Christ.

[00:42:14]They were born hundreds of years before him. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Rahab, a gentile prostitute, obviously never heard about Christ. They were born 2,000 to 1,000 years before him. But in humility, they put their faith in God.

[00:42:31]Amen.

[00:42:32]>> God takes the death of his son, Christ, applies it to their life, although they never knew about Jesus, and they're going to be in heaven. Hebrews chapter 11 clearly states, "You and I have more than ample opportunity to read the Gospels. So, we are responsible for what we do with Christ."

[00:42:52]Now, because Christ revealed that God's character is just and good, we never have to fear that he's going to rip anybody off. He will judge everybody justly and fairly.

[00:43:04]>> Is Jesus the truth?

[00:43:06]>> Now remember all truth is exclusive.

[00:43:11]2 plus 2 equals 4 means 2 plus 2 does not equal three does not equal 5. It equals four. Now if I just say my opinion is then I'm not making a truth claim and there's no exclusivity necessarily. But if I make a truth claim, then what I'm saying is this is correct and this is incorrect.

[00:43:33]Now obviously if Muhammad spoke the truth, I'm going to hell because I'm a blasphemer. I worship a prophet Jesus of Nazareth. That's more than a prophet is God in human form. So if Muhammad spoke the truth, I go to hell.

[00:43:47]If Sedartha Gatama Buddha spoke the truth, I'm in for a very difficult next reincarnation.

[00:43:54]If Jesus Christ spoke the truth, I'm going to heaven.

[00:43:59]>> Why? Jesus claimed to be the way through death out the other side to eternal life. I put my faith in him, he promises eternal life to all who trust in him. If he lied, then depending on what the truth is, I will suffer the consequences. But if Christ spoke the truth, I'm going to heaven. You limit reality to imagine energy. All that you are is a highly intricate biochemical reaction in your brain. That's all I am.

[00:44:28]>> Doesn't mean there's no me. Just because that's all I am doesn't mean that there's no me.

[00:44:32]>> What is me?

[00:44:34]>> What are you? I don't know. What are you?

[00:44:35]>> No, you didn't answer. I said, "What is me?" Well, when you say me, what are you talking about?

[00:44:40]>> Me is my experiences, my thoughts, my feelings, >> which is all a biochemical reaction.

[00:44:49]Ma'am, your brain secretes thought the same way a liver secretes bile. It's all matter and energy. It's all it is. If you reduce reality to matter and energy, that's all you've got. Okay?

[00:45:01]>> THERE'S NO ME, THERE'S no you, there's no I that stands separate from the biochemical reaction. If you reduce reality to matter and energy, you got to stay there. That's all there is.

[00:45:12]>> Now, you can get sentimental and say, "I got a sex drive for her. I'm going to call it love." All right. Love is real.

[00:45:18]It's not real. It's a sex drive for her that I call love.

[00:45:24]I love my three little boys. I'll get real, Cliff. You have a drive as a parent to protect your three little boys cuz all of reality is matter and energy.

[00:45:33]That's all there is. There's no value of caring, being compassionate. That's why the Duke University student was so on the target when he said, "Sure, Cliff, I'll tell you why Mother Teresa works among the dying in Kolkata. to preserve the genetic pool.

[00:45:50]>> My experience violates that. My experience is Mother Teresa is capable of looking at a dying person and saying, "Wow, I want to do something painful. I want to sacrifice so that that person can live." That's compassion. That's caring.

[00:46:08]Ma'am, that's part of my experience.

[00:46:11]>> Okay.

[00:46:13]assuming that when I was born I was nothing but my genetic pose. That's all I had to go on. Okay.

[00:46:22]>> Every experience that I have and the interaction between that experience and my genetic propensities create something. Okay. And that thing when it interacts with more experiences create something. All these things build up to the person that I am right now. I'm much more of a person now than I was the day I was born. I didn't have thoughts. I could feel pain.

[00:46:47]>> You're not a person.

[00:46:48]>> Feel desires.

[00:46:49]>> You're a more complex biochemical reaction. I'll give you that.

[00:46:52]>> A more complex person.

[00:46:54]>> Uh-uh. Not person. More complex biochemical reaction.

[00:46:58]>> Person is just what what does person mean? This person. Can you only be a person if there's a god? Is that >> Yeah, that's right. You can only be a person if there's a god. Because person implies personality. Person implies individuality. Person implies free will.

[00:47:13]Person implies, "Hey man, I'd like to be your friend. Hey man, I hate your guts.

[00:47:17]Get lost." Person implies he can choose to blow me away or he can choose to love and respect me. That's what personality personhood implies. And if all I am is a complex biochemical reaction, then I don't choose to blow him away. I don't choose to respect him. I simply do what my complex biochemical reaction programs me to do.

[00:47:38]>> How's that different from like parenting drives? Like you you count the things drives and then you you count for your your own ideas of feelings and I don't really see the difference. I mean to if you say that protecting your kids is a drive or it could be understood as a drive or as a or as a some other kind of feeling. I I still don't see what's different because if I feel this thing the next guy maybe his biochemical reaction doesn't make him love his kids or something like that does you could call those both drives or you could call them just choices of life or or feelings or something like that I still don't see the difference between what I mean what's the difference between a drive you call them a drive you call them uh I mean personally I think that these are really uh products of the physical complexity of life and and really if you want to call this that we're not individuals then so be it. I'm happy with being part of the universe as as a as a peace board. But uh I think it's just the complexity of of the system that allows us doesn't allow us to understand things in in a micro you know analyzing it little by little how how it all happens. Uh you just have to look at the big picture and say well this person he's a good person he's a bad person.

[00:48:50]You cannot go into analyzing what leads to what in every possible detail. which is how the capacity doesn't mean it's not real. It's not underlying the whole system.

[00:48:58]>> Okay? But all I'm saying to this lady is look at your experience of life.

[00:49:04]Obviously, what I'm banking on is that she's experienced love, not just from mom and dad, not just from a guy who thinks she's beautiful and cute. I'm banking on the fact that she has experienced love from a person who didn't have some ulterior drive but who just chose to freely love her and be compassionate and help her.

[00:49:24]>> But I say that's a drive too. I say that love is one more drive that we feel.

[00:49:28]Compassion is another drive that we feel. I think we are I think analyze just as well as the sexual desire.

[00:49:36]>> All right. I would I would argue that person who showed compassion on her didn't have to do that. They freely chose to do that.

[00:49:47]>> Well, there's an assumption that they're free to do that. Um I mean I don't know that I don't know that ultimately we are really free or we just so complained that we think we're free.

[00:49:56]>> If there is no God, we're not free is the whole my whole point. If there is no God, we are not free. We are simply programmed reactions.

[00:50:05]>> So you possible if you look at history, we haven't really advanced that much. We still kill each other in the same manner we ever did and things have not changed that much.

[00:50:14]>> Okay. But my experience of life is that I am really free. I can knock his head off right now or I can not knock his head off right now. I don't think I have to do either.

[00:50:24]>> All right.

[00:50:26]And I think I really think that you that none of you can live out your worldview if it's an atheist worldview. What I mean is this. If I hold back, slap her in the face and you turn to me and say, "Hey, man, why'd you do that?" And I say, "Cuz I had to."

[00:50:42]>> You're not going to buy that.

[00:50:43]>> We wouldn't do that.

[00:50:44]>> You're going to say, "No, you freely chose to slap her in the face. We're going to hold you responsible for slapping her in the face." Well, why do you hold me responsible for anything if I don't have free will? If I just have to do what I do?

[00:50:57]>> Because I'll make people realize that they can be going around doing these things. It has some Italian values. I think >> which means you believe that in reality we really do have free will and if you threaten me enough with enough prison it'll make me say well I don't think I'll slap her this time.

[00:51:13]>> No I think I think that you'll obey certain complex laws that are beyond my understanding and yours probably that that say that if in this circumstance it's not going to pay for you to do that that's all. So you just following uh certain thing I'm just saying I mean this is kind of ludicrous to say that because really what I'm what I'm saying is that the complexity of the chain of events is beyond your or my understanding and uh and simply you cannot see it and you perceive that as free choice but I don't think that creates a morality that simply >> so what I hear you saying is Cliff you've got to understand you don't really have free will but you have an incredibly complex biochemical reaction, more complex than we could understand, fine. But if what you say is right, if you sincerely believe what you just said to me, then don't hold me responsible for what I choose to do cuz there's no me that chooses. I just have this incredibly complex mechanism. That's all I am.

[00:52:16]And when the girl says, "I love you," realize what she really means is, "I'm a machine and I have to be attracted to you." So don't get excited about her free choice to love you. Just realize it's all a highly complex, determined reaction.

[00:52:32]>> I enjoy that that that state of affairs.

[00:52:34]I I do believe that that's what's happening. I think it's perfectly fine to be for the >> My experience totally violates that. My experience is I can really have a racist attitude towards him right now. Or I can really respect him. I don't have to do either. And if I have a racist attitude towards this gentleman now, tonight when I sit on the corner of my bed, I can involve myself in selfreflection, self-perception, and I can judge myself. And I can say, you know, Cliff, when you had that racist attitude today, that was really wrong. Make sure you don't do it again tomorrow.

[00:53:11]I am free to judge myself and I do it on a regular basis.

[00:53:16]>> That's my experience of life.

[00:53:19]>> Kind of back to she's gone now. But back to the previous question. Um >> if you do make it into heaven, then are you sort of automatically cured of all of your lustful thoughts, your greedy thoughts? I mean, once you get there, >> can you now swim to Japan? In other words, >> okay, good question.

[00:53:38]I put my faith in Christ, but I'm far from perfect. I still have to struggle against a lot of sin, a lot of bad habits in my life, >> but the Holy Spirit is helping me to change, but often it's two steps forward, one step back, three steps forward, four steps back. That's a process. When Jesus returns a second time, John writes in First John, he will help clean up my act totally. And in heaven, I won't have this incredible struggle that I do today with my what Dallas Willard calls readiness to sin factor.

[00:54:12]So yes, in heaven, God will give me the power not to dip into the sinful habits that I too frequently dip into while I live on this planet.

[00:54:22]>> I can hardly wait.

[00:54:23]>> So you'll be >> struggle today. At that point, you'd be perfect like Jesus.

[00:54:28]>> At that point, I will be a human being who is moral who lives a morally pure life.

[00:54:35]I mean, the people who be in heaven are those who genuinely want to do it God's way because they love God. They understand God's good and not out to rip them off.

[00:54:44]See, obviously, I doubt today.

[00:54:46]Obviously, I doubt that God is good.

[00:54:49]Every time I sin, it shows I don't think God really has my best interests in mind. I think I got a better way of doing it. That's why I sin. I doubt God.

[00:54:59]I doubt Jesus.

[00:55:00]>> Why is it just for an infinite punishment for a finite finite amount of time that we're living in sin?

[00:55:08]>> Why is heaven eternal? Why is hell eternal? Is that not too much responsibility that God has put on our shoulders in this finite life that we have? Very thoughtful question. Ultimately, I don't know why God set it up that way. But I do know that the person who says faith in Jesus Christ encourages irresponsibility is lying to themsself and to others. No. Jesus does not say believe in me and then live an irresponsible life. Jesus says believe in me and then live a responsible life.

[00:55:48]I've been speaking on campuses now for 45 years and I love to ask the question, why are you guys going here to university?

[00:55:56]What's the answer?

[00:55:58]Why do the America Why does a typical American university student go to university?

[00:56:03]>> Get a job.

[00:56:04]>> Bingo. To get a job to make more money.

[00:56:08]To position yourself to make more money.

[00:56:11]And Christ says that's sad. You're worth more than a paycheck, guys.

[00:56:16]You're more significant than the size of a paycheck or a stock portfolio. You're human beings created the image of God for a purpose. And that purpose is to love God with your heart, soul, mind, and strength. And to love your neighbor as yourself.

[00:56:35]So Christ, you're right, puts a ton of responsibility on your shoulders and on my shoulders. And your point is excellent. Maybe it's too much because hell is eternal. Heaven's eternal.

[00:56:48]What's going on here? All right. I hate to tell you, the universe is not religiously ambiguous.

[00:56:59]God's not playing hide-and-seek with his friends.

[00:57:02]If you don't believe me, just study anthropology. Every culture around the world has some type of religion.

[00:57:11]We know down deep there's a creator.

[00:57:16]The only reason an atheist or an agnostic does not find God is for the same reason a criminal does not find the police.

[00:57:24]He's running away.

[00:57:28]God has left more than enough evidence of his existence. There's more than enough evidence that Jesus Christ is reliable.