Christian nationalism is a theological framework that affirms Christ's absolute lordship over all spheres of life, including civil government, while maintaining that nations are defined by shared culture, history, and worship, and that civil authorities are God's servants who must uphold justice according to biblical standards without assuming the church's spiritual responsibilities.
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Christian Nationalism discussion with @TheologizingSubject追加:
It's so weird. I think it's just because I had somebody's face on there. Oh, look at there. Well, uh, welcome back to the theologizing subject tonight. Well, we started off with a party and we ended up with me and Reformed Catholic, which I'm totally happy with. Uh, we had a we had two other guys kind of drop off there.
Um, I think was investigating the case on there.
>> Oh, look at there. Well, uh, welcome back to the theologizing subject.
>> Why am I here >> tonight? Well, we started off with a party.
>> We ended up with me and Reformed Catholic, which I'm totally happy with.
Uh >> oh.
>> Uh we had a we had two other guys kind of drop off there. Um >> Oh, sorry.
>> No, you're good. That was me. That was me. That was me. I'm You're good. I'm sorry.
>> Glad there's an answer to the >> I didn't even realize I had >> I was lost.
>> All right. Anyway, >> go ahead. Go ahead. with Reformed Catholic tonight and we're gonna we're going to start reading the statement on Christian nationalism. We've already read through the definition uh the introduction if you guys want to go back and check that out on the last live stream. Um so Reformed Catholic, I don't know if you're putting your name out there or not, but if you wanted to go ahead and just say what you do out here on the the interwebs and and what you're about and >> Yeah.
>> Uh I'm a reformed Catholic. Uh you can check out my channel. um the reformed Catholic and basically uh what I'm all about is so you probably are wondering well why you know why reformed Catholic well uh about um upholding traditional classical Protestant theology and right the teaching that the reformers were all about uh not schisming and trying to start their own church but reforming the Catholic church and uh calling themselves Catholic and so uh you'll see a lot of this different content right the the uh on my channel the reformers going back to the church fathers in particular Augustine so that's and uh I'm I particularly come from the Anglican tradition so of course uh when we I geared towards specific subjects I will look at it from that perspective but I mainly you know be trying to be ecumenical among you know cross uh high church classical Protestantism uh boundaries. That's what my channel is all about. Yep.
>> Nice. What do you think of this?
>> Can you read that?
>> Oh, wait. Wait.
>> I might have to uh scroll in. Uh oh, yeah. This is my body. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Definitely. Yes. 100%.
>> Anyway, that was a Lutheran days, but I still agree. I mean, I Yeah, I like I'll have to have you on the game to talk to you about that, but >> Oh, definitely.
>> That'd be cool. Hey, what's up, Wisdom for the Church? Feel free to jump on here if you want. Um, we're just we're just partying. Um, okay. Well, yeah, man. Thanks for that introduction. Um, I'm going to go ahead and start off by just reading here and we can kind of just stop and say, "Hey, do we think what do we think so far?" and dig into the scriptures and uh just see if these things seem to be true. So, >> amen.
>> Article one, the source of truth. We affirm that the Bible is God's word breathed out by him as the only sufficient, certain, inherent, infallible, necessary, and final authority for all saving knowledge, faith, what we must believe, and obedience, how we must live. We affirm that the light of nature in man and God's works in creation and providence reveal God's power and nature, leaving civil authorities without excuse for failing to govern justly as his servants. Yet this knowledge is insufficient for repentance unto life and salvation.
Feel like we're just reading the Westminster.
>> All you want to share it so so I can see it or >> Oh, shoot. Yes, that would actually >> so everybody Yeah. Yeah. So that way everybody There we go. Okay.
>> Yeah. Yeah. All right. Sweet.
>> I'll finish reading this and then I'll I'll look at those comments real quick.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
>> Let's see here. All truth, claims, and ethical standards must be tested by God's final word, which is scripture alone.
We affirm that the Bible is clear in all essential matters. We deny that the tr that true beliefs, good character, or good conduct, can be dictated by any authority other than God's revelation.
Uh, and as an Anglican, I think you might have some thoughts there. Uh, >> yeah, I mean that has that's well that sounds exactly like the uh I was going to say the the part about scripture almost sounds exactly like the 39 articles.
>> Oh yeah. And I that's that see I haven't read that either. That's >> and that no one like uh basically and it goes even further right to say that no one can require um right scripture is the sole infallible standard for uh faith and doctrine. I'm kind of paraphrasing now but uh and even makes the point that no one can require a Christian to do anything for salvation that is not contained in the scriptures.
>> Yeah.
Yeah, that's good. Um, let's see. Someone said, "Does someone say August?"
Uh, why do tax-free churches spend billions protecting child predators and molesters? H, okay, maybe we'll come back to that one.
>> Probably you'd probably be against that.
Yeah, >> I know if I can answer that one for you.
man. Okay. Well, let's go ahead and jump into our first scripture. Um, you guys got any more questions or whatever?
Throw it out there. But second Timothy 3:15.
Actually, I can pull these up if you'd like.
>> Of course. A classic. Yeah. I mean, I mean, uh, yeah, if you want to. Yeah, go ahead. Why not?
>> Let's see.
>> That's a classic.
>> Yeah. Let's pull that up.
Of course, you know, second Tim or 2 Timothy 3-16 is a classic.
>> Yeah.
>> 15-17.
So it says, "And how from childhood you've been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to make you wise." And I don't have that.
Why is that not on the screen? See here.
Dang.
I'm just going to read it. From childhood, you will have been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All scripture is breathed out by God, profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete and equipped for every good work.
>> Yeah.
>> Amen. Yeah.
>> Yeah. I think uh the truth of the word applies to all spheres of life. And >> as a reconstructionist, I think you'd have no issues there. Um >> Yeah, exactly. like you know the the the idea that the Bible right the word of God doesn't just apply to the life of the church but also applies to society as well of course in different ways is entirely you know biblical Christ said all authority all power and authority in heaven on earth has been given unto me yeah >> yeah absolutely um and then we don't have to go through all these scriptures but I do want to just hit a few just to kind of press the point forward forward. Um, >> sure.
>> But yeah, I definitely think this applies to any sphere that you find yourself in. I mean, if you're governing, you're you're doing this as if the word of God is true. If you're a a parent, if you're a teacher, like, uh, it it still applies. There's not it's not as if you get to the civil sphere and then there's somehow this neutrality or some kind of, you know, just pick and choose uh, morality there. So >> well that's that's the question you know like the question is okay well you know by what standard like is there what other standard is there by which we as Christians ought to live uh right >> yeah uh WFP before life uh what why don't you tell us where what what religion are you a part of are you an atheist or or what are you thinking here man uh he said Christianity is the head of the snake poison.
>> Oh boy.
>> Just going hard, man.
>> What is going on here? This is uh curious. I'm curious what's what's going on in there.
>> Now, now now I understand the first question a little bit better. Now I understand where he's coming from.
>> Yeah. Although I will agree, yeah, there's there are evil people and denominations and any kind of institution that you can think of. So, I'm not uh not denying that those things happen. Um, >> yeah.
>> Let's see here. Isaiah 8:20. Consult God's instruction and the testimony of warning. If anyone does not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn. Consult God's instruction.
>> Yeah.
>> Okay. Yeah. That would be particularly applying to uh Israel. But yes, that would you know we'd even see that uh you know the point is that the moral law the ten commandments are applicable across you know for for are universal basically for all times right uh and that yes those particular laws that applied to Israel in those particular times were for Israel but even Westminster confession of faith acknowledges that uh the general equity of those excuse me the general equity of those uh judicial laws can still is still applicable for today.
>> Yeah, absolutely.
Um yeah, I think we could probably go on from there, but >> yes, I think we've hammered it pretty good so far. Um, >> yeah, the word of God's true and therefore it's true in every sphere, not just in my personal walk with God or, you know, my personal prayer life, my personal Christianity, but it's also true and applies to people outside of of that. So whether they want to admit that or not >> because otherwise then you become schizophrenic basically, right? So uh especially as a Christian if you go like if the m moment you walk outside of your church now all of a sudden you are under a different standard then >> you know you're kind of going back and forth. It's very >> right.
>> Well I guess schizophrenic isn't the word. The word I was looking for is is uh fractured or dualistic.
>> Yeah. Yeah. And I think you see that a lot and and I part of the reason that at least I'm gung-ho for Christian nationalism is that it's denying that, you know, you're kind of seeing the hypocrisy in the conservative movement and you're you're wondering like what is even conservatism anymore. And >> all they're doing is trying to like compromise and and meet people where they're at instead of just saying, "Hey, no, this is what's true. this is what we should pursue regardless of you know who likes that or who doesn't like that. Um so >> liberalism has failed.
>> Yeah >> but uh >> all right next point uh >> yeah go ahead >> go uh article two orthodox Christian faith.
So is that Anglican? I'm just kidding.
>> Orthodox? No Orthodox or Catholic? Yeah, that that would be the uh one true uh Orthodox Eastern Orthodox Church, right?
This is the >> I believe at least politically there is, you know, we're going to agree on so much >> Yeah.
>> of the of this, you know, things that actually are politically relevant, I think. But >> exactly right. This Yeah, go ahead. But yeah, says, so it says, "We affirm that nations are commanded to honor God by officially affirming the Orthodox Christian faith as historically and universally defined and affirm affirmed in the Orthodox creeds." And I'll I'll just kind of lay out what those are really quick in a second.
>> We affirm that many denominational confessions articulate the Orthodox Christian faith. We affirm that salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone revealed in scripture alone to the glory of God alone. That's a lot of alones.
>> Deny that a Christian nation must require or preclude membership in any particular confession tradition or denomination.
>> That's a big one because there's a lot of a lot of people that are opposed to Christian nationalism, right?
uh or reconstructionist idea of the state governing by the law of God uh are afraid that the state is going to be taken over by a particular denomination, right? Or a particular church >> and ruled by that. Uh which and this this is basically saying right here, no, this is not the objective. this is not what we're trying this is not what we're setting out to do. Uh right and also maintain adapt the balance between the the nation right the the state and the church.
>> Yeah. Which is very important.
>> Yeah. For sure. Um yeah I and I just think of even even with a Catholic like a Protestant a Catholic how much are they going to agree on especially obviously you get into the creeds and you know people have their different what they believe based on the creeds but but the basics the creeds are that that this is advocating that we would you know agree on is the apostles creed the nine creed uh the athanation Creed.
>> Yeah, >> I would think that was Yeah, that'd be >> all three which are affirmed in the 39 articles.
>> There you go. Yeah. Yeah.
>> But I mean like uh like I believe that the uh Nika and the apostles are affirmed the Westminster confession of faith. But really the aation who's going to have a problem with the aation creed?
It's >> Yeah. Yeah. So it is interesting that all three traditions Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox would at least on the surface they would agree with with these three things which is pretty good start for a political situation I would think.
>> Yeah.
>> So >> yeah, I think so.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> But uh people will say, well, you might agree on disagree on something. I'm like, isn't that just what always happens regardless of if you have a standard or or not?
I mean like it always takes you know and another like some other criticisms is of this is uh well you know you like even the even Christian nationalists aren't united on what Christian nationalism like all the specific details of Christian nationalism. Well, yeah, but of course, like this is going has to be acknowledged and recognized that whenever we enter into kind of a a new adventure or uh in this way that there's going to be things that need to be hashed out.
>> Mhm.
>> Um, >> yep. and and uh you know figured out and no one's saying that even even that it's going to be perfect but you know that that you know we should be moving towards this right >> yeah you're you're agreeing on I guess you could say you're agreeing on the standard you're not necessarily interpreting the standard in the exact same way >> exactly >> uh but like as long as we are agreeing on the standard we there is a framework work within which we can work and >> uh and it's not and like like this document says right it's not even the churches that are doing that are really making any decisions the church in particular churches here it's the it's the the nation >> yeah and you know like what we have now is just like we're exalting the constitution above everything else and we're all interpreting the constitution differently and you know we're all coming to our own conclusions and it's like there's actually a better standard.
I'm not against the constitution but there's there is a better standard uh to start with. So which I believe our country was much closer to that than than we were today in the beginning anyway. But >> yeah.
>> Yeah. So >> yeah, I mean nothing Yeah. Yeah. Nothing against the constitution, but even the I think it was John Adams, right, who said that the constitution was written for a moral and religious people. So even the founding fathers recognized the necessity of morality and necessity of religion in order to have a proper moral morality in society.
>> Yeah, for sure.
faux show.
So, let's check out 1 Corinthians 15 1-5.
Now, I'd remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as a first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures, and that he appeared to Kaya and then to the 12.
>> So, yeah, we can all agree on those things.
>> Yeah.
>> As a Christian country. So, >> exactly. Yep. Well, as Christians, Yeah.
as Christians or even as denominations in this uh in this country like there's if you even if you look at like the historical uh Protestant denominations there's so many things that they agree on even though there are disagreements there's so many I think you know was and Luther sat down and they agreed on was like uh 12 out of 13 articles >> right and the one article that they couldn't come couldn't agree on uh was the Lord's supper Of course. But yeah.
>> Yeah. Yeah. That is interesting to think about. But it's like, man, could you guys really not >> Yeah. Right.
>> Figure that out. And you know, some of that is like I appreciate it, too, because it's like I feel like they hold truth stronger than many of us today or take it more seriously than many of us today.
And a lot of that with me is just like I'm not certain about a lot of stuff, you know, >> but I still want to I want to be serious about it. I don't want to. Okay. How much does this thing over here matter or this thing over here? But >> yeah, >> sorry.
>> This is really good. It's like my first time reading this actually. But this is really good, right? because it's articulating that uh number one that we all can affirm these common beliefs as Christians >> and then uh that we deny you know we affirm this and then we deny that uh that a Christian nation has to require that uh you hold to a particular Christian denomination.
>> Yep.
>> Right. that and that is like yeah that's very helpful >> uh and I have said before that you know I would take a Catholic nationalism over what we have now >> really well a national that might be a little bit different because then you would have the pope because the because the of the structure of the of the you talking about the Roman Catholic Church is that what you're talking about >> it could go very wrong but I'm just saying as opposed I feel like >> I mean over what we have now like I don't know we can we start like they might start persecuting us again.
>> Yeah, possible.
>> Yeah, it's you know I'll I'll take that gamble though, you know. So >> yeah, >> I don't think that's what it'll be but seems unlike >> I hear you. Yeah. Mhm.
>> But uh yeah, you can disagree dogmatically and and still wild claim.
What's the claim?
Well, the Yeah, I mean the only the only beef I have with that if if if the Roman Catholic Church did not claim to be the one true church then but they do claim the problem is they do claim to be the one true church and that's where I think you know if they if uh they were you know hypothetically they were the national church of the United States that could create some problems there.
>> To put it lightly. Yeah. Yeah. I guess I'm just uh you know I'm willing to live on the wild side a little bit but >> well I'm not sure if you've seen the way the Roman Catholic Church is going either. They are going like more liberal uh as well. So I would submit to some extent I'm not going Catholic guys.
I am looking into it though to the best of my ability. I'm I'm pretty slow though. Okay. Yeah. Well, yeah. Well, I think we should uh probably go go ahead. Um >> yeah, >> let's see here.
>> Article three.
>> This is the part where it gets a little dicey.
>> Yeah. Now we're getting into stuff. Now we're getting to good stuff. Yeah.
>> Okay. Article two. Orthodoxy.
>> Oh, article three. We just read article two. Yeah.
>> No, you're good.
>> Long day, man.
>> It's all right, brother.
the standard of justice. We affirm that God's word is authoritative on everything to which it speaks, not the papacy. And we affirm that God's word abundantly regarding the nature and importance of civil government and justice. We affirm that God's moral law is enduring and binding on all people throughout all time, including civil authorities. They don't get out of this one. and nations and that it is summarily comprehended in the ten commandments. We further affirm that every political thought must be taken captive to the obedience of Christ. In other words, no neutrality. We affirm that Christ will judge every civil authority according to their conformity to his command.
>> That'll preach.
>> Yes, >> I should have read to the end.
Uh we deny that there is any objective standard by which to discern justice from injustice outside of God's revelation written on the heart declared in creation and most perfectly revealed in scripture. We deny that faithful civil authorities may rule autonomously from the rule of Christ. We deny that God approves of Christians embracing any political ideology or position contrary to or prohibited by scripture. And I do think that's an issue you would run into in a Catholic nationalism. But >> yeah.
>> Yeah. Any thoughts on that as an Anglican? Um especially regarding authority like how do you look at scriptural authority and tradition? And I I just watched one of your video videos recently if you wanted to kind of touch on that a little bit.
>> Yeah. Uh well I mean tradition is certainly we certainly see tradition as having you know possessing some kind of authority.
I mean basic but it's basically the same kind of authority as the Westminster confession of faith would have right.
>> Yeah. uh except we are just going a little bit back further and holding but that's really within the life of the church and uh pertaining to uh you know the ecclesiastical elements of the church not really having anything to do with uh you know life outside of the church.
>> I gotcha. Yeah.
>> Yeah. So there's nothing fundamentally that I would disagree with at all here >> really. Yeah.
>> Yeah. It seems for the most part like what I know of Anglicanism so far. It's I mean you're still on board for scripture alone. You're not you know you're saying not not solo scriptura but sola >> scriptur and and tradition is allowed to interpret on those matters and we're trusting those that came before us and things like that. I don't have any issues with that at all. I mean, in fact, it would be pretty in line with Anglicanism historically, right? uh and not not saying that I would affirm this, but when Henry VIII broke off from the church from from the from Rome and basically made himself head of the church and the state, you know, then basically he's now saying he basically is uh saying I'm ruling by or I don't know if he was attempting to, but basically saying, you know, I am I am appointed by God over the state. So therefore, I'm obligated to, you know, as head of the state, I'm obligated to recognize that my authority comes from God. Now, I would disagree with him being, you know, claiming head over the church. And that's basically, you know, the problem that led to the English Civil War in the 1600s and the Westminster Confession of Faith. But everything right here like actually this last statement I thought of uh Psalm 2 right where it says kiss the sun >> uh all ye rulers kiss the sun uh less he >> what does it say >> be angry >> yeah lest he be angry and you perish along the way yeah >> yeah like obey these commands >> under threat of of punishment like >> Yeah >> you know in the time to come Isaiah 42 24 says, "He will not grow faint or be discouraged till he has established justice in the earth and the coastlands wait for his law."
>> Any thoughts on that?
>> Amen. Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> I don't know if you're postmillennial or not.
>> Oh, yeah. Definitely.
>> Postal ring. Figured you had to be, but >> yeah. I mean, >> definitely is happening and and going to happen.
Yeah. Like if you don't think that you know this also all of this has to I think be undergarded by a positive uh esquetology. If you don't have a positive esquetology then what's the point of >> true >> trying to make any of this work. If it's just going if it's just getting worse and worse and everything's you know like going to fall apart eventually then you know you can almost make an argument why do anything.
>> Yeah. Um, >> wait.
>> Twitchy. You see Twitch's comments?
Like, >> oh yeah, 100%.
>> Anglic.
>> I didn't know homosexuals like Christian nationalism. Anglicism historically is gay.
>> Get out of here, man. Why don't you just hop on?
>> He doesn't want to tarnish his name. He can't. He can't hop on here. It's the Presbyterians don't don't allow Christian nationalism. So >> yeah, apparently his Presbyterian. Yeah.
>> Yeah.
Man, just coming on here and just >> a preill. Apparently you're a premill poop eater. I don't know.
>> Well, I know some premills and from I don't know that I'm going that direction.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But but just to maybe just to in their defense, they would say what you're doing now, you're essentially going to be doing then, but I still it does seem inconsistent when you're like, well, you're not guaranteed victory.
>> Yeah.
>> So, but they would still say act like you will.
>> Yeah.
>> I don't know. I don't I mean, that's funny because Twitchy would mention that because in his present, apparently they only allow premillennial historic premillennialism, which is interesting.
>> They must not like the I can't say it.
Oh, I don't want to get our channel taken down.
>> Oh, I know. It's It's interesting because I know a lot of Presbyterian like Presbyterian Preserians that will allow for historic premillennialism and I don't have a problem with it myself.
Yeah, >> it's interesting. Um, yeah. All right.
>> Pretend like you'll win.
>> What?
>> Oh my gosh. My goodness, Skye.
>> Maybe we can have Prim come on sometime and and say how bad I'm getting this.
But, okay, we got to move on from this guy.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Let's Yeah. Yeah. Why Why are we even uh why we even stopped to look at the chat?
>> The time of day.
>> Yeah.
>> Okay. Exodus 21-17. And then we can we can keep cooking. And you're just going to have to let me know when you got to jump off here, man.
>> I will not be offended.
>> Uh when I mean, when when when uh when are you going to stop?
>> I don't.
>> When are you good to stop? Like >> I'm just here.
>> I don't know. Okay. You're just here.
Like let's say 11:30. Is that work for you?
>> We can say that.
>> All right.
>> What >> you think we'll make it that long?
>> I don't know, man. We We're We're go We're We're cooking pretty good right now. Yeah.
>> Sorry. I should be more orderly about these things, but I just say, hey, maybe we can get through the whole thing. Who knows? No, I'm just kidding. That's very long.
>> It's very long.
>> Well, if you like before you read the text, like you know, like uh this is really the question that you know we that we have to answer as Christians is the what authority do we use to right by what standard?
That's the ultimate question. What authority do we use to uh you know if Christians are called to be senators or be representatives for their state uh or for their country, right?
What standard do we use to make laws like what standard do we as Christians implementing in order to put you know make good and right and proper laws? And it's got to be the word of God and it's got to be, you know, some primarily the ten commandments.
>> Yeah. I mean, what is happening is not working for anyone.
>> Yeah.
>> So, it's >> Yeah.
>> It's almost self-evidently, you know, wrong. It's just it's it's showing how wrong it is with every >> every year, >> you know.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Well, I'll hit one more verse and >> Yeah. Go ahead. talk about that a little bit and then we can we can keep trucking. Romans 2:14 through15. Man, I don't know if I've ever had this many people on a stream. Let's go.
>> Yeah, let's go.
>> Post coming through.
>> When Gentiles who do not have the law by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves. Even though they do not have the law, they show that the work of the law is written on their hearts while their consciences also bear witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them. Man, >> I'm so glad you read that text because the minute you said Romans 2, I was like, "Yes, this is a great text because right right this this text demonstrates that even Gentiles, right, who did not have the old covenant law, uh Paul says even when they do, even when they obey from their hearts, even when they obey this law without even having it, they demonstrate that it's been written on their hearts."
>> Right? So like we are not it's not just Christians that are that God has placed under to be subjection to obey his law.
It is all men even those who are out like these Gentiles would be outside of the covenant people right outside of Israel.
>> Yeah. Yeah. But man that becoming a law unto themselves that is such a perfect description of what we see.
>> Oh yeah. And I think when people kick back against, you know, Christian morality and stuff and they're they want to impose their their secular morality on others, it just shows all the more that it is written on their hearts and they they do feel condemnation that they're not, you know, they're not saying that, but they >> Yeah.
>> They're definitely making that known. So that's uh that's very it's a very good verse to read.
>> Yeah. Like are we Yeah. Are we being subjective? like are we going to uh make make have a standard that is subjective or a standard that's objective and everyone knows that it's wrong to murder. Why is that? Romans 2:14 right here. Everyone knows that it's wrong to do these things because God's placed his law on their hearts.
And Paul says, you know, they reject that. They reject the God who gave them this, who placed this law on their hearts.
>> Yeah. Yeah. And even in cases where they they try to redefine murder and you know abortion and things aren't aren't murder, when you look at the statistics, people are feeling the results of that of you know putting their baby to death whether they say they believe that that's murder or not. Like they're they're experiencing that like psychologically and >> yeah, >> it's affecting their lives and it just kind of the word of God can't really be ignored is what what I'm what I'm hearing.
>> Yeah. So yeah. Well, what is a nation?
Careful how you answer because you will sound racist. Okay.
>> Oh no.
You can uh guys, he does not own me.
He's not part of my denomination or lack of denomination.
Don't blame him for the things that I say. Okay. Okay.
>> Go ahead. So the definition of a nation, we affirm that a nation is not merely an idea, amen, abstract principle or ideology, but tangibly defined by a particular body of people in a particular place. Nazis said that one time. We affirm that a particular people are necessar.
>> Please don't just don't say that. Go ahead.
>> I can't help it. We affirm that a particular people are necessarily bound together by a shared culture, customs, history, and lineage while sharing common interest, virtues, languages, and worship. We affirm in regards to place that a nation is a definitively set. It is definitively set by both its borders and times physically defined by God. Acts 17:26.
Mhm.
>> Thus we affirm that nations should rightly maintain autonomous government of their people and place with the necessary rights duty and duties to number one prioritize the security of its people by maintaining its borders fail. Providing for its common defense fail and repelling invasions from without and insurrections from within.
Number two, promote the prosperity of its citizens and enforce justice. And I'll go ahead and read the rest of it.
We deny that a nation should seed its sovereignty to international bodies that may subvert the will of the national interest for a global order. We deny any efforts to establish a one world government system before the return of Christ as such effort efforts are a reenactment of the Tower of Babel. We further deny that sovereign nations must only be composed of monoethnic populations to be united under God.
Therefore, as Christian nationalists, we utterly repudiate sinful ethnic partiality in all its various forms.
It's a lot.
>> Amen.
>> A lot, >> man.
>> I mean, the dispensationalists might have a problem with that part about uh establishing a one world government.
They seem they seem they seem so they seem so desperate to have that.
>> Oh, you mean like like you're talking left behind >> like Yeah. Every time every time there's a war, it's like when the when we're, you know, we're looking for the establishment of a one world government.
When will it happen?
>> Okay. Who is Rowena Tin?
>> Oh, that's my wife.
>> Oh, okay. I was like, she's saying subscribe. I'm I'm assuming that's somebody, you know. Okay. Well, hey, welcome to the stream. Thanks for >> Yeah.
>> Thanks for hopping on. Thanks for lending me your husband for the night for a podcast >> podcast, guys. Okay. Please like and subscribe. That's a good refreshment from what Twitchie was giving us earlier. So, >> amen.
>> Yeah. So, man, a nation is not merely an idea, an abstract principle or ideology, but tangibly defined by a particular body of people in a particular place.
>> Yeah, I think this is very healthy, helpful to, you know, particularly define what a nation is because I was actually doing a live stream. I was like a month ago I think or something like that on Christian nationalism and this guy came on and he started arguing with me about like what exactly a nation is and whatever you know I think it was kind of liberal but like here we have clearly defined what a nation is and we even have a scripture quoted right Acts 17:26 uh and like the you know affirming the autonomous is like a lot of this is uh taken from scripture, right? Romans 13, autonomous government. Uh nations rightly maintain autonomous autonomous government. Uh you know, Romans 13 says that the magistrate wields the sword, the power of the sword, right?
>> Mhm.
What? Oh, Twitchy. Come on, bro.
>> What's he doing?
>> Anyway, let's go. Uh uh. What else do we have to say here?
>> No, I uh I'm not seeing what he's putting on there right now. I'll get distracted too easy.
>> Yeah. No, don't don't pay attention.
Let's get back Let's Let's go back to it.
>> Get get on that Hebrew.
>> Uh and even saying this is very important here, saying that you know this uh to repudiate sinful ethnic partiality, right? because you were talking about like Nazi Germany and here right here it says no we're not about that.
>> Yeah. We we want to have a nation and we want to have pride in that nation and prioritize that nation over other nations.
>> Yeah.
>> But that does not make us Hitler or >> Yeah.
>> that does not make us the same thing as Nazi Germany. That's just obvious it's just obviously ridiculous. I'm a simple person and when I read these things it's just like they just seem so elf self-evident like >> you know prioritize the security of its own people like its people by maintaining its borders and like what happens to a country what happens to their previous culture to their previous land when you just open up the floodgates and you let millions of people in who have no intention of you know being a part of what is actually what what has been done here in the past and I think that's what we're seeing.
>> Yeah.
>> So, >> yeah, 100%. Yeah. And like that would be wrong, right? This would be a violation of even the law of God because uh it tells the Israelites to uh take that there should be no partiality shown to the foreigners that the foreigners they're entering into their land should be treated uh with justice, right? Just as they would treat their fellow fellow citizens.
>> Yeah. Yeah. And like I I definitely think when people are here, you know, through the right channels and and by the right methods and >> yeah, >> they're they mean well, they've gone through the proper channels, like yes, of course, we should treat them well. We should we should be hospitable.
But man, I think at this point we're we're we're topped out.
>> I think uh >> or getting there. Yeah, >> we're being ravaged at this moment.
>> Yeah.
>> But yeah, no one's here saying Yeah, I was looking for one that was like worth seemed applicable. Some of them were >> here. I guess I guess in regards to the >> What about Act 17?
>> Act. Yeah.
>> Since it's quoted, it says it's quoted right in the document.
>> Oh, is it? Shoot.
>> Yeah. Or since it's uh right right in the document, might as well. Act 1725.
Yeah.
Is >> it 25 and 26?
>> 25 and 26.
So says, "Nor is he served by human hands, God, uh as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything, and he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place." You just wanted me to quote that because you're a theonomist, right?
No, I like Well, >> you wanted to prove that the must have an answer to immigration. That's that's it.
>> Well, the scripture certainly does, doesn't it? Boundaries and, you know, pointed their boundaries and has determined their times and Yeah.
>> Yeah. No, that's it's good.
That is good.
Well, what do you think, man? Should we keep going?
>> Yeah, let's go. Yeah. How many are there? Either way, >> there are millions. This is the longest article you've ever read.
>> We definitely won't be >> Okay, there's 20.
>> Sorry. Okay, there's 20. So, we are at >> Where are we? Six.
>> Whatever V is. I don't know Roman numerals.
>> Five.
>> Five. There you go.
>> We're at five. All right. Uh, you want to try to get to 10?
>> Yeah. Let's go, man. Let's do it.
>> All right. All right.
>> Okay. Article five, the nature of Christ's lordship and kingdom. Man, this is just a good document. I don't know about you guys. We affirm that in addition to possessing the titles of Savior, Messiah, and many others, Jesus, the son of God, who is truly God, is also the King of all earthly kings. The Lord of all earthly lords and the lawmaker for all earthly lawmakers.
He is the possessor of all authority in heaven and on earth.
We affirm that as God, Jesus Christ is preeminent over all creation, sovereignly rules over all things visible and invisible in heaven, earth, and hell, and ordains all things according to the council of his perfect will for the good of those who are in him. We affirm that in this mediatorial role rule, Christ rules by his spirit and word through the saints in their earthly authority.
We also affirm that as sovereign kings of kings, Christ has commanded all civil authorities, Christian and non-Christian alike, to execute his will on the earth to orient humankind toward himself through the moral law. And we affirm that Christ alone through his blood through the blood of his cross grants repentance and forgiveness of sins to reconcile sinners to his father.
We deny that any attempt to segregate sacred aspects of life where God's word is authoritative and supposedly secular aspects of life where the Christian must operate by a standard other than God's word. We deny any claim that bringing God's word into the civil spirit sphere is unwise, unfruitful, sinful, or anything other than fitting and required. We deny that Jesus's kingship and lordship are merely heavenly or that his word is only authoritative over confessing Christians. And we deny that solely by virtue of their claims to authority or the claims of those who support them, any human or group of humans who claim to be civil authorities are in actuality recognized by God to be civil authorities.
>> There's a lot here.
>> Forced conversions. That's what I heard.
>> What was that? We deny that that by solely by virtue of their claims. You mean the last one?
>> I just heard they're trying to force conversions. That's that's all I could hear.
>> Where? Where?
>> No. Where just playing route?
>> He has moral objectivity is is forcing convergence. So >> that's what people say. Yeah. See that's that's that's the people have I was going to say people most Christians don't have any problem right with this with these affirmations right uh Christ the son of god he is king of over all earthly kings and pre all creation and he rules by his word and spirit through the saints in the earthly authority until we get to this part like Christ has >> but Christ commanded all civil authority ities to execute his will on the earth to orient humankind toward himself through the moral law. That's the problem. And people start like, oh, you're trying to enforce Christianity.
You're trying to convert people.
>> It's like, >> yeah, all the ideals are okay as long as they stay in your bedroom or stay in your your heart, your pious little heart.
>> Yeah.
>> As long as they don't go out anywhere else to apply to anything else in the real world, then it's okay. But >> yeah, >> but as soon as you do that, o that's just >> that upsets the liberal order.
>> It's like uh you know down let's all be so let's all be Amish, right?
>> Yes.
>> Let's all be Amish. Let's have nothing to do with anything outside of our own little community. Uh you know this is basically and then I was going to say well this is basically two kingdom theology.
uh the Westminster West, which actually the the East Westminster East seminary rejects two kingdom theology.
>> Um well, two kingdom theology, I'm not sure if you know anything about it, but uh guys like Michael Horton, the the proponent, the big- time proponent of it, uh what's his name?
uh Van Dunan is uh Van Dunan and he's written several basically it's the idea that uh they take this idea two kingdoms from Augustine and they completely distort it into basically there are two kingdoms there is the civil government and there is a church and God's law is only applicable to the church >> but not I always wonder I always wonder what those two kingdoms has I'm like, >> "Yeah, >> I just want them to make a definitive statement on something political.
>> Just just apply your theory to something in real life. How does that work?" You know?
>> Yeah.
>> Like all these denials are directed primarily towards them or people like that or like extreme Anabaptists who want to see a a extreme separation between the state and the church. uh pull any Christian from a few hundred years ago and they're going to be like, "Why are we even talking about this?"
>> Yeah, right. That's crazy. That's crazy.
>> Um Hosea 8:4 says, "They made kings, but not through me. They set up princes, but I knew it not. With their silver and gold, they made idols for their own destruction."
I don't know. Maybe it's the goggles I'm wearing. I just liberalism. What I see as the idols have been made.
I don't know, man. Let's see here.
>> Twitchy says this is a safe space where he can let out all his goofy hoover.
Apparently, your your channel is his safe space.
>> Hey, man. You could have done that live on here with us.
>> Fun without you. That's how that's how it goes.
>> Yeah.
>> Um Yeah. Anything else on that? I was going to read Colossians 1:16.
>> Go ahead and read it. Yeah, >> that's for by him all things were created in heaven and earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, that's important, dominions, rulers, authorities, all things were created through him and for him. Man, that's so clear. And he is before all things and in him all things hold together.
>> I love that verse.
>> It's basically like in him all things uh are contained. Like without Christ everything would fall apart.
>> Mhm.
Yeah. And like these things exist for him which is which is the crazy part.
But like I was also uh I could just really quick quote I see because I see it here. Matthew 28:19 Jesus said all power and authority in heaven and on earth has been given unto me. Right? So Jesus claims that his authority is over things in heaven and on earth.
>> Take that Baptists.
>> Well, it right here. Yeah. We deny that Christ uh Jesus kingship and lordship are merely heavenly or that his word is only authoritative over confessing Christians.
Cuz what like okay, think about this.
What what has been the most influential religion over w in western society over the past I don't know 1500 years?
>> I mean it's got to be Christianity.
>> Yeah. And why like why is that you know if we took the stance of that uh well we shouldn't be really be influential in society or whatever. You think that would be the case, you know, if all Christians took this kind of way of thinking? No. Right.
>> Definitely not. Definitely not.
>> Yeah. And I think even in the past, like preill, premill, postmill, the whole gambit of people, they were very forward about their faith and they were pushing it forward and they were not hesitant about, you know, pushing those things forward in the public sphere.
For whatever reason, after World War II, we got real shy.
I'm not going to go into it.
>> Well, I mean, you know, liberalism, it happened like I think it happened to it didn't just happen here, but it happened. Look at England.
>> Like things are so bad in England. You know, the church is falling apart. Like they have >> uh Muslims, you know, are rampant there.
Even throughout Europe, I mean, it's it's a it's a it's a mess. There's one country that I know, I think it's Poland, if you could correct me if I'm wrong. Uh the guy was on uh PVD, you probably know him, Patrick Ben David uh podcast. The the prime minister was on uh of Poland was on there and basically making Christianity the national religion. It's amazing.
>> Let's go.
>> Yeah, >> I'm here for it. And guess what?
Everybody wants to go there, but they're not allowing everyone in. It's it's, you know, that's >> Yeah. Well, man, I I do think, and this is probably a minority of people still, but the opinions are changing like the, you know, people are kind of like, hey, uh, maybe we shouldn't just open up the floodgates to Islam. You know, maybe we shouldn't like >> allow dual citizenship and >> Yeah. think >> and things like this. And it well those things like I mean I I can't imagine this many people talking about that 10 years ago. Like so it's >> that's at least a a white pill moment for that.
>> These people were trying this group of people were trying to wipe us out back in the Middle Ages.
>> Very true.
>> Yeah.
>> Dormat Christianity br >> like Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. like how how how much longer do we have to just lie down and take it without standing up and fighting for what we believe? Like and you see so many Christians, you know, like this document should be something that all Christians of all denominations like as we saw back a couple articles ago should be able to unite around. But so many Christians are like, you know, fighting over like secondary a lot of it is secondary doctrine and secondary issues online. Uh and just like you know not that not that I'm against debating, but it's like can we find something to unite on? My goodness.
>> For sure. For sure.
Well, let's keep trucking.
>> Yeah.
>> The identity of civil authorities. This one's a little shorter. And the source of their authority. We affirm that civil authorities are God's servants of justice who must know who their master is and what he requires of them. We require that all we affirm that all human authorities including civil possess authority only as it has been delegated to them by God and accordingly are accountable to him to serve the people as revealed in his word. We deny the authority of civil officials and documents to contradict what God has said in his word or to govern beyond the bounds of God's word.
The bounds God's word has established. I can't read.
>> Very good. Yeah.
>> I think this is important because it establishes kind of like you know that there are separate there is the church which Christ rules over but then there's also the state which has which is directly under God, right? and and the like this whole fear that oh the uh church is going now the state is going to be under the church it's just simply not the purpose of this movement right is that is bringing the state under God right >> yeah it's a again it's an acknowledgement of of morality is objective it comes from God authority is >> derived all authority is derived D and it it comes from God. And that's why we can't say you can kill babies on Wednesdays and not Fridays because you know God says don't kill babies.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. ever argue against like make these arguments against atheists that you can't argue you can't say that uh you can't use right or wrong or good and evil because you're arguing from a subjective morality because you have to use you have to borrow from Christian morality in order to say what is right or wrong or what is good and evil then we can't turn around and say well you know the laws of our society should be than subjective.
>> Yep. And then you turn around and hold everyone to that subjective standard that is always changing and >> which you don't even what you don't even believe is a real standard because you're arguing, right? Because every time the atheist wants to bring up that, oh, he knows that your god is, you know, like our god is evil. You know, the attack against him is, well, you're not arguing from an objective standard. But then you be, you know, it's just But then you'll be like, well, you can make our laws and then they only have to be in accordance with the scriptures.
>> Absolutely.
>> It's a contradiction, right?
>> Yeah.
>> Well, let me uh let me end up this section on Romans 13 1-4.
>> Yeah, >> it's good enough to read read the whole thing.
>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
uh let every person be subject to the governing authorities for there is no authority except from God and those that exist have been instituted by God.
Therefore, whoever resists the authorities resist what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad.
Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is a servant of God and avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer.
Good.
>> Amen. Yeah.
>> Where my brain goes because I'm always like, well, what about this?
What happens when the civil authority is an agent for evil and not good?
>> Well, that's a good question. Who is Paul? When Paul is writing Romans, who is the civil authority that he is under?
>> I mean, the Romans, right?
>> Right. The the pagans, right? The Roman pagans.
>> Yeah. Oh, you're right. Yeah.
>> Yeah. So, like even Paul can recognize that uh you know, even the even that uh pagan authority is still like still has their authority from God, right? The abuse of the authority, the abuse of authority is not an argument against the authority, right?
So a pastor can abuse their authority, that's not an argument against pastors or elders, right? Or against the office.
>> Yeah, absolutely. That's why when that commenter earlier that was like you know the church is doing bad things it's like yes >> but what do you have?
>> Yeah. Yeah. Well also be argument against like uh you know there's a lot of people saying well you guys are wanting to go out and burn down abortion clinics and all this kind of violence.
But this argument against it because we are to in some measure to submit right to that which is good. And of course if we don't have if we are uh forced to submit to that which is bad then we don't really have a choice. But Peter says in first Peter I'm reminded of he says it's better to suffer for doing that which is good than to suffer for doing that which is evil.
>> Yeah.
Yeah. And like uh when you when you get in trouble, let it be for for doing good, not for not for >> Yeah. being stupid. You know, >> the problem is like if you are not doing if you are if you are not suffering in some measure, especially in the country that we live in right now, like can you say that you are doing good?
It's like, you know, recognizing that there is no neutrality. It's either doing good or it's either, you know, people can't be like, well, I'm sitting on the sidelines. I'm not really I don't really care, you know, uh what was that story? like there was a fence and on one side was God and the other side was the devil and the man was standing like in the middle or whatever and you know he had a choice to make and he basically just sat sat on the fence and the devil smiled then he was like yeah I own the fence.
>> Yeah, that's very true.
>> Yeah. I mean I've been convicted of that lately. It's like I'm learning a new job and >> you know I'm not I'm not putting my faith out there as much as I'd like to and >> which you know that'll come with learning learn learn the job and and stuff like that but >> I mean it's more like about you know how we like good behavior how we demonstrate ourselves. I don't think that we're called to like I think also we've overemphasized evangelism to the deprivation of just uh you know being a witness by your conduct.
>> Yeah.
>> For Christ like St. Francis of said like uh preach the gospel at all times and if possible use words.
>> Yeah. I think you you got to share, but you also need to show up and do your job well. And yeah, for sure.
All right. What Roman numeral is that?
>> Uh, what were we on? Uh, seven.
>> V11.
>> V11. Yes, seven. Yep.
>> How far are we going?
>> To 10, right?
>> To 10.
>> Well, this is pretty long. Wait. Uh, >> let's see here.
>> What time is it?
>> It is 9:35.
>> Okay. Yeah, let's let's keep going.
>> Yeah, you just hop off when you need to, man. I'll >> I'm good. So, I'm not off. So, you'll just have to >> Well, what do you what do you you have church tomorrow, don't you?
>> Yeah, I got church, but you know, >> okay, >> you know, I'll show up.
>> All right.
>> Yeah, I'm good. All right, go. Uh, number seven.
>> This is a long one, >> man. Should I take that in one breath?
>> Maybe. Maybe uh stop in the middle.
>> Okay.
>> Or after like the two paragraphs. Yeah.
>> Sounds good.
>> Okay. Here we go. If you're just hopping on, I see some numbers are going up and down. We're reading the statement on Christian nationalism, and we're just kind of saying, hey, does this line up with scripture? Does it line up with reason? Does it uh does it make sense?
So, the duty of the civil authorities, we affirm that God has armed civil authorities with the sword of justice to promote citizens welfare without partiality. by number one, writing and enforcing just laws that are a terror to those who do evil, defending and approving those who do good, and avenging victims of crimes with speedy justice and proportional punishments for evildoers. Amen. We affirm that civil authorities must ensure that the church shall enjoy the full, free, and unquestioned liberty of just discharging every part of their sacred functions without violence or danger. We affirm that civil authorities must discharge this duty without showing favoritism to or bias against any Christian denomination for their historic beliefs and teachings. We affirm that the civil government has the duty to intervene to prevent or to stop any ceremonial practices that violate the rights to life, liberty, or property of others.
Human sacrifice, wife burning, or inhumane maming.
I'm not sure what this is about.
Good stuff. You mean I don't know like people that are people that are I Yeah.
I don't think any of this kind of behavior will be going on >> in America, but you know, you might you might be surprised.
>> Might be an India thing. I don't know.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Uh >> I don't think anybody would disagree with these two paragraphs. Uh I don't think anybody that's like outside of the Christian nationalist movement would disagree with these two paragraphs so far.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I think it's pretty standard. It's like, yeah, we want, you know, even who doesn't has never heard the word Christian nationalism or the phrase, they'd say, yeah, the government should keep people from storming our churches, as we've seen happen recently.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, that shouldn't be a thing.
Uh so >> we affirm that civil magistrates have lawful authority to punish civil crimes like assault, murder, rape, theft, fraud, manstealing and false witness and to ensure proper due process through the civil courts, payment of liability for verif verifiably proven harm and proportionately proportionality of punishment. We affirm that collecting taxes are a legitimate right of government, but only in so far as they are used to finance the legitimate functions of government as it seeks to fulfill its God-given duties and not to wrongfully assume duties which properly belong to the church or to the family.
That's interesting.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. There's I mean, where do you draw the line there? You know, like the government has taken on so much.
That's the issue is at this point like the government has taken on so much that it's almost like if you start you can't just cut all everything off immediately and that's where you have to use wisdom and prudence in these things cuz if you start cutting all things immediately then people are going to be you know in real bad shape but I think it's is important to recognize that the government has gone too far right in in uh has overaccept its boundaries uh in doing things that really the church should be doing or the family should be doing. Like I know there was those uh there's a lot of parents I think it was like a couple years ago uh the government is too small. We want the government to be small.
We want the government to be small.
Well, it depend I think it depends what the problem is, you know, like if you need mass reimmigration, that that takes quite a bit of quite a bit of government.
>> Well, I mean, yeah. Yeah, sure.
>> That's not your end goal.
>> Yeah, it depends. Yeah. Yeah. Of course.
Uh like, you know, recognizing like so a lot of these things would lead though would practically lead to the government cutting itself back, right? Mhm.
>> Uh because in order for the government to overstep its boundaries, it has it needs to become bigger. But then the problem is the bigger it gets, then you have people that are taking on jobs and you know you're creating a lot of uh various problems.
>> For sure.
Absolutely. Yeah.
>> Okay. We stopped at church or to the family.
>> Yeah.
We deny that civil authorities are tasked with being the caretakers of citizens or educators of children as these duties belong primarily to the church and to the families respectively based. We deny civil government should endeavor to take on these responsibilities and we deny that they do so to the benefit of society. Rather, such charity displaces families by creating a culture of dependence upon the state whose education often tends to debuck children debauch children. There you go. Thank you.
>> No problem.
>> Godless philosophies and perverse instructions. We deny that in scripture God ever approves of tolerance toward depravity like child sacrifice. There it is again. Mutilation and promotion of open sexual perversion. We would follow the we would follow our king and he does no such thing.
>> Yeah. It's not like we haven't seen uh mutilation and uh sexual perversion going on our in our country.
>> Yeah. Well, and sacrifice. I mean >> Yeah.
>> Oftentimes abortion is said to be like this is the reason I succeeded.
>> Yeah.
>> My kid and that that was that made all the difference and >> crazy work. Yeah.
>> Yeah. But like so this is this is really clear because in the in the last paragraph it says okay we we affirm that uh the government uh is not to wrongfully assume the duties which belong to the church the family and now it clearly establishes what those things are >> right which belong to the church and the family education of children uh in particular and And yeah, I think this is pretty much just talking about the education of children >> for sure.
>> And I have I do have a book. It's not by a Christian, but uh it is by It's not by a Christian, but it's a guy that taught in like New York's uh New York City school for over I think it was over 30 years or over 20 years. and he was awarded teacher of the year. And he writes how these these these schools are not established to properly educate uh ch children but instead to indoctrinate them and he makes very he makes a very good case like throughout history.
>> Yeah. I mean, it does seem like they're based off prison models, but yeah. And I'm definitely an advocate for like we're going to homeschool. And I'm I'm a huge fan of, you know, Christian school, too, if that's something you can do. And >> yeah, >> I mean, whatever you do, you need to teach your kids to uh honor God. And it's tough if you're sending them off at a young age and trying to correct all that as you go. That's, you know, that's >> where we would like to see the church, you know, establishing schools or doing things like this to help, you know, in particular to help those Christian families out >> for sure.
>> Uh, >> absolutely. And then I was going to say like there's parents that were uh you probably saw this in the news a couple years ago right before Trump became president, but there were parents that were complaining about the kind of literature that their children were being taught.
>> Yeah.
>> Like it was, you know, like uh you know talking uh really bad sexual literature that they shouldn't that no children should be taught. And they were basically being a lot of them were being told by their school boards, you don't have the right to uh educate your children because we know better than you do.
>> Yeah, that's crazy.
>> It's crazy.
>> Yeah, >> that's enough. I've seen enough for my part. So, >> yeah, >> I'm like, no thanks. I'm not sending my kid over there.
>> Right. So like we're we have to establish the proper hierarchies that God has put in place and the primary one is the family, right? And the over the father and mother having authority over their children.
>> Yeah, for sure.
>> Yeah. And I I understand, you know, people that that public school, they feel like they can't make it work because it's tough.
>> Sure.
>> It's tough to survive. Like I mean, we're doing it. We're >> sure >> we're not we haven't really started the home school yet because our kids are young, but like >> our income is tough and my wife's, you know, working hard in the home to >> make ends meet and I'm, you know, working a lot and it's it's it's tough, but it's worth it. I I mean, >> yeah, >> worth it.
>> But yeah, and you know, people are in different situations, too, where, you know, they might have made decisions that they can't really just go back on and and change. But, uh, I do think it's the ideal. It's the goal for sure. But >> yeah. Yeah.
>> Well, here we go.
>> We further deny that the moral obligations of civil magistrates as dictated by the scriptures are contingent upon any particular escatological framework.
>> I'm gonna have to disagree then.
>> Postmillennialism. It must be postennialism.
>> I hope so.
In other words, regardless of the timeline and circumstances by which one believes, Christ will return, full obedience to Christ today is an indisputable obligation of all magistrates.
>> Yeah. Amen. Yeah. Uh I think that's you know uh and notice like this doesn't say anything about the individual obligation but it's all talking about the role of the government and the role of the civil magistrate.
>> Yeah.
Yeah. And and that you know Stephen Wolf I don't know if you've read much of him or listen to him but uh >> I listen to him. Yeah. I mean he talks about the earthly and heavenly good you know because the push back people have a lot of times is well you can't force people to you know follow your morality or you can't force people to believe >> I just say it's both you know it's the civil magistrate should be advocating for what is good and right and holy and you should also be preaching the gospel like >> yeah it's not it's not about forcing you know again like we we've we've We've had this I think a lot of indoctrination has occurred in among Christians in particular because we have this idea that uh if we're upholding Christian morality that means that we that we are enforcing the gospel that we are making people believe in Christ. But it's like no simply to uphold Christian morality is simply to say you're not allowed to steal from that store over there. My goodness. Yo, >> well, atheists can say stealing's wrong, too.
>> You don't get that.
>> I don't know what came over me there.
>> I don't know where that came from.
>> Oh, man. Let's read Matthew 19.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Matthew 19:4. I don't know if we've Some of these verses are reusing. Um, so if I read one again, I will.
>> No problem.
>> He answered, "Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female and said, "Therefore, a man shall leave his mother and father and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh. So they are no longer two, but one flesh."
What therefore God has joined together, let my nails separate.
>> That's interesting text.
>> What is that in reference to reference to? probably in reference to the family or in reference to the like the fundamental uh that the family is a fundamental hierarchy in society >> probably and that it should not be divided.
>> Interesting. But yeah, I'm not exactly sure either, >> but I guess that's where it's going. H >> I was trying to find a verse we hadn't used.
>> That probably there's probably a reason that was like one of the last ones.
>> Yeah.
See, Ecclesiastes 8:11.
Because the sentence against an evil deed is not executed speedily, the heart of the heart of the children of man is fully set to do evil. That's applicable.
>> Oh yeah.
>> People are going to prison 40 times and then getting out and killing people.
>> Yes.
>> That's a >> that would fix a lot. We certainly see that happening a lot, don't we?
>> Yeah, that would that would patch things up on that front pretty quick. Just a quick quick justice.
>> What is going on in the chat? Oh my gosh.
What do you get when you mix a Baptist and an Anglican a love feast?
Twitchie asked, "What do you what do you get when you mix a Baptist and Anglican?" And Zan said, "A love feast or a banglican?"
>> A banglican.
It's what trans said this is transphobia.
>> We're just waiting on you to jump on here, man.
>> He's too scared. He's too scared.
>> He's going to she's going to yell from the cheap seats. We're already at our glade. See, we can do this.
>> Presbyter.
>> Yeah.
>> Presbyter.
>> Yeah.
>> All right.
>> Government. What >> do you do you want to read some of this?
>> Yeah, sure. Yeah, I No problem. Yeah.
Yeah.
>> Yeah. I don't want to keep you from >> getting your voice out there.
>> Oh, no. Yeah, you're good, man. Like, yeah. Yeah. If you want to go back and forth, I give you a break. Yeah.
>> Uh, so, article 8, the purpose of the civil government. We affirm that God's purpose for civil government is to establish justice for his glory and the good of all people. We affirm that unjust laws harm people and that just laws train the conscience, constrain evil conduct, reflect the character of God, and point people toward their need for a savior.
We deny that the purpose of civil government is to establish a secular, neutral, or godless order. We deny that any government is capable of neutrality as every individual and system has moral preferences and functional gods i.e. ultimate allegiances and ultimate standards by which they judge reality.
We further deny the natural law is a different standard from God's moral and universal law summary comprehended in the ten commandments. I'm wondering why they didn't quote Romans 2 here.
That would have been a great text to quote.
>> Maybe they were suppressing the truth.
>> Yeah. Well, yeah. To say like that even the law that's written on the heart of the Gentiles is the same as the moral law that God gave to his people.
>> Uh thoughts?
>> Yeah. Um yeah, I I just think so much of this is so basic and I know that the conversation since this has been written. Um things have people have kind of shifted and and you know moved around a little bit on like natural law, theomy and different things, but to me this just seems like it's crazy that a Christian could disagree with almost any of this.
I don't I don't get it. I question your presupposition.
>> Yes. Yes.
>> Like >> Yeah. And even if you're holding the natural law, like they would still say, "Yeah, this doesn't deviate from God's, you know, God's standard." Um Yeah.
>> Twitchie says, "Uh, stop asking me to come on or my wife's going to keep hitting me."
So maybe ask him come on a couple more times.
>> Steph talk about distributing a gold brick to everyone when they turn 18.
>> He's trolling. No, Z is trolling.
That's >> What is a Zans?
>> He's my friend Zans.
>> I think I I think I've seen him out there.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
>> Gold brick would be nice.
I'd take a gold brick. I mean our dollar is worthless so be nice worth something.
>> Yeah. But like so I don't think anybody's gonna deny this first this first affirmation >> uh that just unjust unjust laws harm people and that just laws train the consent train the conscience uh constrain evil conduct and reflect the character of God. Uh now there may be some this second the denial is where may people may it may trigger people a little bit. Um >> the purpose of civil government is to establish a secutral reg godless order.
But I I like I guess my comment on this would be is that we've lived so long uh right as Christians you know even the the nation that I grew up in was still more Christian than it is now. And we've just lived so long with kind of this this neutral attitude toward towards those who would be outside of the faith, but we'd be open, right?
>> Mhm.
>> To hearing about the faith. And they're just saying, you know, I just if God would uh if you just make a sufficient argument for me or if God would just reveal himself to me, then I would become a Christian. It's like, no.
There's no such thing as neutrality.
There's no such thing as having a neutral mind. You're either for God or against him. And this is just the facts that we have to recognize and acknowledge.
>> Yeah.
Um, somebody said 16 Spero said, "Let's abolish usery." Yeah. Um, yes. But also like how would we buy homes?
assuming any of us at my age can buy homes. We still haven't made that happen yet. But it's like is there a place for for borrowing >> or is that something that should be overtime totally?
>> I mean the law of God does forbid usery.
Yeah.
>> Now is usery specifically borrowing at high interest or is it just borrowing >> at interest having interest having interest at all? Yeah.
>> Okay. Okay. So So yeah. Hey, I mean, I can't argue with that if that's what it's if that's what it says, you know.
Um, and don't you dare bring up people who >> don't you dare bring up >> Yeah, it's still Yeah, because you can still borrow, but usually usually is uh is interest on the borrowing, right? Uh, and then Zan says talks about a tax rate 20 to 30% tax rate is insane. He says, I say not a penny more than 10%. Well, was 10% is what Israel was required to give to God.
>> You had to bring up.
>> Uh I think 10% is, you know, anything more over 10% is probably robbery.
>> Yeah. It's it's gotten out of hand for sure. And that when that snowballs it, you know, it's pretty pretty catastrophic for people. Mhm.
>> I mean, you know, I' I've I'm probably not the only one that's had to live off a credit card for here and there. Like, just trying to make ends meet. It's like, >> bring back your server, dude. Says, >> I know, right?
>> I mean, hey, I'm open to I'm open to suggestions.
>> We're trying to make it out here. We ain't all got boomers.
Uh right. Yeah, let's get So to get back to the uh >> to the document >> uh like to get back to the document uh like you know I I do think that um like it's important to acknowledge the difference between right and wrong.
Right. and that uh when I was going to say when our country was first established our government was actually smaller. So, you know, like a lot of this fear of, you know, uh, fear of people that are opposed to Christian nationalism and they're saying, "Well, the government's going to enforce Christianity on me." But if you look back when our country was more Christian, the government was smaller.
>> Like even before World War I, we didn't even have a standing military.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Um and but was our as our country became more secular, our country got bigger, our government got bigger, our government got bigger and and took on more power. So is that right? Like this is like are and this is you know again we keep coming back to the question of by what standard but it's an important question to ask like what standard are we going to do this by? Are you just going to make up making thing ups making things up as we go along?
>> Like back in the back I think it was back in the 70s or 80s homosexuality was considered to be uh uh a mental disorder.
>> Still is.
>> Well now and now you're allowed to change your your sex.
It's pretty wild. Yeah. Yeah. And and not only is our government way way way way too bloated, it's also subservient to entities that are not, you know, beneficial to the people.
Like the fact that we are fighting a war in Iran that has nothing to do with us, but we're told it has to do with us, but yet it everything that is every way it's affecting us is negative. So things just that's just one example, but it's like you know, >> yeah, >> these these interests are not they're not geared toward serving this people.
They're geared toward special interests.
They're geared towards small numbers of people, you know, other countries, things like that.
So we do need to anchor, we need a reanchor to to a ultimate standard that's going to supersede all of those things. And of course, yeah, we're not talking about a utopia. We're not talking about like it's just going to be perfect if >> we get a Christian president, you know, but it's a start, you know. So, >> yeah. Amen. Yeah.
>> Well, I think we should bust through this one and maybe call it a night.
>> Sure. Sure. Uh it's a big >> We want What scripture do we want to read here? Uh >> oh, let's see here.
How about second Peter?
>> Yeah.
>> 3:18.
>> Second Peter 3:18.
>> Yeah.
3. I wish I had it on there, but I didn't do it beforehand. So, for Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit.
>> Yes. Uh, wait.
Is that right?
>> That the right one.
>> Did Oh, second Peter.
That's the problem. Second Peter. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Is that what you were thinking?
>> Uh, I guess.
>> Let me see here. Let's >> Let's That's kind of a kind of a vague one.
>> Yeah.
Yeah, I know some of these are a little but there are a lot of good ones that I'm like, "Oh, that I get why they >> Yeah.
>> Um, yeah. Exodus 21-17." That's just uh >> That's the ten commandments.
>> Ten Commandments. Yeah. I should have known that.
>> I think we read a lot of these already.
What is uh >> Did we read Matthew 12:30?
>> Matthew 12:30.
>> Yeah, it's kind of I was just kind of blowing through them because >> Yeah. We've >> Oh, he is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters abroad.
>> Okay, >> that applies to every sphere. And we're about to get into that. We're about to get Kyperian up in here.
>> Okay, this is a pretty long one. All right, article nine, spheres of authority. We affirm that God has established spheres of authority as the home, the church, and the civil government. We affirm that God has given unique responsibilities and instructions to authorities within each sphere. We affirm that authorities in each sphere are subject to the rule of Christ, each retaining authority over its own sphere.
That's very important. While being checked and balanced by the others, we affirm that parents as the authority in the home have been given the rod for instruction, training, and discipline, wisdom, and righteousness. We affirm that only the church has only the church has been given the keys of the kingdom for the binding loosing of gospel professions, the practice of church membership and discipline as well as God's word for the preaching of the law and gospel with the aims of conversion, sanctification, and discipline.
The civil government has been given the sword as God's servants to maintain justice and civil order by punishing evildoers, avenging the innocent, commending the good, and thereby promoting citizens general well-being.
We affirm that Jesus Christ is appointed for his church biblically qualified men to hold ecclesiastical office for the purpose of rightly preaching the word, administering the sacraments, and practicing church discipline. We affirm that no law of civil government should interfere with or hinder these ecclesiastical duties among the voluntary members of any assembly of Christians according to their own profession and belief.
Um, okay. We only have a couple more. We deny that human authority in any sphere possesses absolute or unchecked authority even within their sphere as Christ delegates all human authority.
Therefore, all are accountable to Christ and his moral law whether they acknowledge it or not.
And we deny the civil authorities may assume themselves administration of the word and sacraments or the power of the keys of the kingdom of heaven for church discipline, but must be uniquely protective of the free exercise of the Christian faith according to the dictates of conscience under the Orthodox Christian faith.
>> I'm so lost.
>> What? Oh, okay. Were you lost?
>> What paragraph are you in? That was the last one.
>> That was the last paragraph. Yeah, you have it on your own screen.
>> Yeah, I'm sorry.
>> Okay. Okay. No, no, you're good.
>> It's too small for me to read on there.
It's too small for me to read it there.
Yeah. Yeah. No, you're good.
>> Yeah. There's a very clear delineation of >> Yes.
>> church is not the state. The state is not the church, >> but >> and the family is not the church or the state.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Absolutely.
>> But they definitely have a relationship.
Um >> Yeah. This is this see this is what we see happening is the state is overstepping its boundaries. The current situation that we currently live in the state is overstepping its boundaries to interfere in the realm of the parents of the family and of the church as well.
>> Yeah.
>> Right. And this is a this is a problem.
Um like you see particular authorities given to the family for training and instructing their children. The church being given the keys of the kingdom and uh you know pertaining to the preaching of the word and the disciplehip and discipline in the church and then the civil government only given the sword to maintain justice and civil order.
Yeah.
>> Right now is our current the current situation of our civil government are they are they let's just let's just start this like are they maintaining justice and civil order where like well maybe now better than but we're like have they been maintaining justice and civil order in our nation?
>> Well, not in our nation but you know they're trying to do it. They're trying to do it.
>> I mean now they're trying better, right?
But but they weren't really doing a good job of the last administration wasn't really doing a good job of that.
>> Yeah.
>> Um yeah, uh it is expensive. It is expensive.
Um, and part of that is uh the situation we're talking about here is the the actions of the government directly uh infringe upon our ability to like have the money to have kids and to educate them and to do the things that we need to do. So, it has become more difficult. It's not impossible, but it's it is pretty difficult to uh support a family and to >> do all the things that you need to do, but uh it's worth it. Here we have a legitimate question. How to deal with single parents? Spouses have passed away. We are sadly we sadly have illness, abandonment, and abuse issues.
We need to consider larger situations that may require one parent to work.
Says, "A nationwide governmentrun app."
>> What?
Uh, Zan says, "A nationwide uh, government-run dating app."
>> Uh, you know, there's actually a dating app that >> you have to be you have to affirm the creeds in order to to be a part of it. I think >> but yeah, because well, there's a problem with like, >> you know, cults getting on Christian dating sites like Mormons and Jehovah's Witness and >> Yeah.
>> stuff like that.
>> But like, so yeah, so this is a great question, Dexter. how to deal with single parents because you know apparently the government uh even through the government's uh help they have not been you know uh this like hasn't been this isn't being doing the government isn't doing they're isn't doing what uh they said they would be doing right assisting single parents um but that the problem with that is it leads to uh there only being single parents Right? Because if you're going to be assisted by the government, why would you get married? But I think this would be the like this is where the life of the church comes into play. The church establishing institutions and places like that uh that would affirm or that would seek to help reach out and help those who are in need in the community.
I think they'd be be a great place for the church to start out with outreach and evangelism, right?
Yeah. And I think you would see that and you did, you know, I think we did see that like the church was much more communitydriven before all of these things were in place.
>> And there, you know, that was the safety net for 99% of the people in this country. It was like >> if you needed help that you were a part of a church and >> they weren't going to let you just die, you know, they weren't going to let that happen. like that did used to be >> and and the fact that it's not now it's like well if those things were pulled away would would that immediately >> you know be filled you would hope so I I think it would mean even with uh even with uh if you're not part of a church you know I know that there are churches uh when I was going to seminary in Pittsburgh there was a church that would go around and they would help families that were in need and Uh, oh, is that me doing that?
>> Oh, that's me.
>> Okay, never mind. Uh, like they would go around helping families in need and uh, you know, like um, they were able to do that with the resources that they had and >> it was really helpful to those families.
Of course, a lot of people just take it, a lot of them just took it for granted, but it's also a great way to reach out in the community and let the community know that you care and that, you know, you're you're not just there to serve yourself, but you're there to serve the community as well. Of course, you don't want to be taken advantage of, but I would say it's better to uh what's Paul said, it's better to to give.
It's wait said remember what your our savior told us that's better to give than to receive. Yes. I don't know why I had a brain fart there.
>> Yeah. If you're looking for a reason to join a church. I mean yeah that's a good reason. When you need help you'll have help.
Uh >> conduct constructive surgery for cancer and other emergency procedures. Well, I mean we have hospitals like a lot of hospitals were established by Christians.
>> Yeah. I mean, yeah. And we're not saying like there's not problems that >> what I don't understand the question.
Yeah.
>> But uh >> I'm not understanding your question there.
letters saying some people live in areas where there's not a dense population, but you know, generally I would say if you're you'd still hopefully you're still near a church that you could be in community with. If you're not, maybe >> Mhm.
>> maybe consider finding one, you know?
>> Well, it's like we're all about evangelism. I mean, this is one of the things that kind of bugs me. I mean, that should bug should bug Christians.
We're all about evangelism, but when it comes to helping those who are in need or like uh the church used to historically used to take alms for the poor. When it comes to doing those kinds of things, we're like reluctant to do it. Why? Like why should be we be reluctant to help those who are in need physically or you know with uh that need food and stuff?
And I'm glad we're bringing this up because this is actually a huge part of I mean Christian nationalism is it's the civil sphere being the civil sphere.
It's also the church being the church and >> filling in the gaps that that are going to be there, you know.
>> Yeah. A lot of people talk about think that or when we talk about Christian nationalism, it is all about uh >> punishing and Yeah.
>> Yeah. It's all about like oh taking over the state and uh >> which it is >> which is our secret plan >> but you know but uh as we see here with this very helpful article it's it's really about uh recognize it's really about bringing everything in order under God and under Christ and acknowledging the different responsibilities that exist in each sphere like the responsibility of the parents to raise their children. The responsibility of the church to function as a church and to be the body of Christ. The responsibility of the civil government to keep things uh you know to keep the moral order of things like we you know this nowhere do you see this say this respon the government is going is uh responsible to enforce the gospel on people. In fact, the last clause says they may not assume the administration of the word and sacraments or the power of the keys of the kingdom for church discipline.
Um, now it does talk about them protecting the free exercise of the Christian faith.
I mean, what's wrong with that? Like, what's wrong? We're protecting >> We see so many church shootings. We s we see uh so many like churches uh being or so many ministers being harassed and things like this. What's wrong with the state protecting religious freedom?
That's why we have religious freedom to begin with.
>> Yeah. But I and kind of coming to the end here, I think we're we're probably getting close to >> Yeah. Yeah. But uh I I do think I have hope that the church is changing and as as economic situations do become more difficult like I think a lot of us are feeling uh I do think that's going to have a positive effect on the church uh and that we are going to be there for each other and and kind of fill those gaps and and not just have podcasts which are great but like have real people in the flesh that know us and know our struggles and uh and are there to to be the church and I think having some pressure will actually help that move along a little a little more.
>> Yeah, that I definitely think that is something to work towards. Like you look at I know a lot of Doug Wilson is a controversial figure, but if you look at the lot of the things that he's doing in uh Moscow, Idaho, right, and really establishing a community community there, I think a lot of churches could can take notes from that and uh of you know, how to branch forward, how to reach out to community, how to have an effect in the area in which you live for Christ.
>> Yeah, absolutely.
>> That's a great place to end. Yeah.
>> So, we don't want to talk about tithing unbelie or taxing unbelievers.
>> What? Wait, what say?
Uh, someone has to go to church and pay a tithe. We should place a special tax on them. So, the government No way. Are you serious? We just we just got this document that's saying that the the government is not >> uh the government is not to take the keys of the kingdom. What the heck?
>> Well, let's uh Yeah, maybe not that, but let's let's punish blasphemy.
>> Yeah.
>> There you go.
>> Okay. Well, Reformed Catholic, really appreciate you coming on, man. You're always welcome to come back. Um >> yeah, guys, thanks for hanging out. uh making it a little interesting, giving us some nice questions out there. And yeah, we're just kind of I'm just a janitor reading this statement. You know, I don't have an education or I'm just trying to say, hey, does this line up with with what God's word says and it, you know, takes closer examination.
There's still questions to be answered and and things like that. But we'll leave it off at uh the duty of civil authorities and the next one will be the purpose of the civil government.
Is that where we're at? Yeah.
>> Civil government. So, >> oh wait, is uh on nationalism and policy priorities, right? Article 10.
>> Yes.
>> Because we just read Yeah, we just read eight.
>> We just read we we we uh we just read nine. Excuse me.
>> So, we're on 10. Yeah. Yeah.
>> Yeah. So, that'll be fun.
>> All right. Good stuff.
>> Yeah. Thanks for coming on if you don't mind hanging out for a second. Uh >> just to make sure everything goes through. And uh thanks everybody for watching. It was a good time.
Good stuff.
Ending stream maybe.
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