Insecurity: US Intervention Means We Never Had True Sovereignty – Mimi Wariboko

Añadido: 2026-05-23

[00:00:02]Welcome back to Inside Sources. Today, I'm leading the show with a conversation on the recent developments regarding US and Nigeria military strikes against terrorists. First, we had over the weekend last week, and then after that, subsequent attacks. Now, we want to look at the global dimension in terms of social, economic, and political uh issues that are involved. To join me in that conversation, I have the Dean Weather Professor of Social Ethics from the Boston University, who is also the Director of the African Studies. I'd like to welcome back to Inside Sources, Professor Nimi Wariboko. Prof, good to see you again.

[00:00:45]Oh oh oh, thank you, uh Laolu Akande.

[00:00:47]I'm I'm glad to be here. Thank you, sir.

[00:00:49]Let's start this way. Um uh quite a bit of uh international buzz uh greeted what happened, I believe, Friday night last week, uh when both presidents of Nigeria and America gave the information that uh you know, the the the deputy uh leader of Islamic State, IS, has been uh knocked out, you know, eliminated, with a number of his lieutenants. Now, uh we're going to look at some of the details, but I want to ask, in your own view, uh in the and in the and based on some of the things that we have discussed in the past about this, how do you read, you know, the latest developments, or the latest set of developments?

[00:01:31]As as far as operation is concerned, one could immediately see three ways of reading it. One, it shows that Nigerian um intelligence have have increased their their their capacity to locate and strike targets.

[00:01:50]So, so one has to give them credit for that.

[00:01:53]But, it um on another that it also shows that Nigeria, US military cooperation has um has uh yeah, has deepened.

[00:02:04]And then uh thirdly, it it shows that the ISIL and and ISWAP leadership are vulnerable.

[00:02:12]Um if actually the Nigerian government is determined to do something. These people are not ghost.

[00:02:19]So, at least from operation point of view, it is it is that.

[00:02:24]But then, once you move beyond the operation, you begin to ask, what is implication of this for the political calculations for uh for 2020 um 7 because people are going to ask this uh question, how is the um president going to spin it when the campaign actually starts? And And how is that going to affect And how will this affect the overall US uh Nigeria relationship going forward?

[00:02:57]All right. So, yeah, I mean, you you you you've laid out some of the issues that I'm also interested in. But before we get to the uh the political campaign and the narratives that might uh come out of it, uh let's first of all look at the global dimension. And then we will dovetail, you know, to political implication in Nigeria.

[00:03:17]Now, uh some of the international commentators that I have uh had talk about this, you know, that is a little bit short of uh Western influence, uh said that what is happening in Nigeria is that Nigeria uh has gotten the attention, you know, uh of of of the American government and the Chinese government.

[00:03:42]That there there there there is a bit of uh contention, you know, over Nigeria.

[00:03:48]And And the way this particular uh commentator, you know, uh is called Unfiltered News. And he's all over the place on social media. And I I think that this is a good thing for Nigeria.

[00:03:57]That that Nigeria is getting, you know, the benefit from the Americans. It's getting the the the the the military benefit from the Americans, you know, uh who are now, uh you know, deploying uh the American military might uh to go after Nigeria's uh existential problem.

[00:04:14]And then Nigeria's also getting from the Chinese uh quite a bit of economic investment and support uh in in terms of the engagement that has been going on, uh you know, between China and Nigeria.

[00:04:27]Do you agree with this perspective? Or or how do you How would you rather look at it, Prof?

[00:04:32]I mean I mean the way to look at it, um it's um sort of the good, the bad, and the and the ugly. I mean, the good side is that whatever the country can get help to deal with the terrorist uh menace in in Nigeria, yeah, yeah, we should um uh yeah, appreciate it, right? So, that is the good part of it, right? Uh that And and even if from the economic side, if if we can get some help from China to do um to to advise our economic goal, that is also good.

[00:05:08]But the bad side is that it tells us, right from independence, that we never had the real sense of of sovereignty.

[00:05:17]Right? Our sovereignty has always been controlled by people from outside. So, whether it was Britain and and then later the the Bretton Woods institutions, and now um the United States or China, it's it's a sad reminder that that we've not really gotten a grip over over our sovereignty to to determine our fate. The The idea of sovereignty as part of self-determination has not really been our lot. And and and and so we have now become the grass that is caught between two elephants.

[00:05:54]And and so whether they make love or they fight, the grass suffers. So so eventually we should never lose that perspective that these two powers are are not there because they're for the Christmas, that they love us.

[00:06:11]They're there for their personal interest to exploit us, to oppress us, and to to uh to settle their own quarrel for their own national uh yeah yeah interest. So that is the bad side.

[00:06:26]Now the ugly side of the whole thing is that uh small medium nations, when they're um they're smaller and and they're rising or they have the potential to rise, will go through this kind of a tension or quote and quote operation from the um from established power, from the great power. But if they have a leadership or leaders that can know where they are at that moment and exploit that situation for their own advancement. But the ugly fact about Nigeria is that we are not sure what the government at various level, from the federal to the local government, will get out of this in terms of fulfilling our future goals. So so so so that is the ugliest part of the that that in the international scenes, bigger nations will try to lord it over the smaller nations. That is a fact. And countries that have not fully established the economic mind and military mind are at the behest of the of the greater power. But it's the onus is upon them to see how do we plan ourselves so that we get the best out of this thing and we don't be in this perpetual situation forever.

[00:07:43]Remember, China Britain insisted on selling opium and that led to the opium war. Mhm. And China was was was helpless or almost almost helpless. But they learned from that and from that time on and with the communist regime they made a determination to be somewhere. But we are not It appears we've not even set ourselves our minds on a particular goal and we're not even on the road to anywhere.

[00:08:12]Mhm. And and and and and that's the that that is the sad point prof that you just hit on. That it seems that a lot of our national narrative is around how to get power, you know, and and it has become it seems that we are so obsessed with the with how to get power that we are even becoming desensitized.

[00:08:37]You know, if you look at the at the the the level of insecurity, you know, some of the extreme violence that has been going on and and you don't see you don't see among our politicians a sufficient demonstration of even empathy and and and and you know, some some milk of humankind or whatever it's called the milk of humankindness to the gory and gruesome killings of Nigerian citizens. Instead, you see a lot a lot of focus, a lot of bragado, a lot of bragadocio about we're going to get the power, we're going to keep the power.

[00:09:17]How do you think this will pan out with the level of insecurity in the country, you know, and then the the the the closeness of the elections. I want you to answer that question and then we come back to how the American uh know, you know, working with us on this military The what to be some kind of advance we are facing 2027. But first, you know, just give me your take. How do you think, you know, this will pan out?

[00:09:46]So much insecurity and then so much focus on politics.

[00:09:51]Well, I mean so what has happened um that they've succeeded in taking out the number two person of the uh also Al Manaki.

[00:10:01]That is good but but if but the truth fact that we should focus on is that there still insecurity um yeah in the country and an organization like ISIL are still funding themselves through ransom that they get from kidnapping. There are still insecurity in the country. So at the end of the day, if this is all they have to show I don't think it will change the mind of Nigerians to feel that their country is secure and therefore the government has done a great job in terms of uh addressing the insecurity kidnapping issue. So so if this all they do because people are going to put it in context between now and the election, uh will Nigerians feel safer? Will the level of insecurity uh come down? Will kidnapping uh come down? If they do that So if if this become the beginning of a consistent uh project of addressing security in a way that the average Nigerian on the street can feel it, then this is a uh a good beginning. Otherwise, it become a flash in the pan just for I mean I don't want to diminish the security important of what they've done. But but it will end up like it's it's it's it's for the show because at the end of the day, it has no foundation. It does not tell us it is going nowhere. Because it will become one off thing. But the other issue about politics is is is is that And and and this connects politics, insecurity, and um and the economy. Uh years ago, 2012 or so, when I was privileged to do consulting for General Azazi, who who was the National Security Adviser, and one of the projects I worked on at I talked with him and his team a lot, I said, "What is the economic dimensions of national security?" Because our security agency, the military, the police, they say tend to think of ammunition, uh um all that um guns and and and other things. But, poverty, economic poverty, is the greatest threat to the country. The because part of this security is linked to that uh situation. The the recruitment process of our young men and women into the terrorist organization is based on that. So, so as long as we have governments that have not really lifted Nigerians out of poverty, are not addressing the economic side, then we are not really seriously focused on addressing uh on addressing insecurity.

[00:12:42]So, my advice to to the government is that yes, you can take out many leaders of of terrorist group would would clap for you, but if you ignore the economic dimensions of national security, it's a problem. Because and that also connects to uh politics, right? The reason a good number of Nigerians don't feel patriotic, they don't feel that they belong to Nigeria, is because of the economic hardship that you you you you grow up in a country that decimates your economic pro- uh prospect, and therefore you are not committed. So, you're not even committed to fighting the insecurity side by side with the government. Because you feel that you're the the government has left you. Until the government begins to focus on the fact that it could address this insecurity and also secure its reputation, its future, its election if it it begins to show concrete results in the economic well-being of Nigerians.

[00:13:40]Mhm. So so so just to take it from there uh the the the elections that we're talking about is going to be in January. You know, just about roughly 7 months to go.

[00:13:51]I I wanted to ask you, have you seen you know, uh any uh serious uh uh commitment from the government of the day to do what you have said?

[00:14:03]And also, have you seen any serious uh articulation of an alternative to this problem from the opposition?

[00:14:12]I mean, the the the the folks that are that are trying to, you know, uh stand for election and run against the the the the president. Have you seen on either side, you know, the the the incumbent and the opposition, have you seen some serious commitment on the part of government or articulation on the part of opposition of an understanding of how to bridge uh that economic aspect, you know, the economic part of the insecurity uh of which you spoke?

[00:14:40]The the the short answer is that have not seen have not heard and it has not come into the minds of the politicians.

[00:14:51]>> [laughter] >> Allah Allah Allah the the the Bible.

[00:14:55]Okay, you know, >> [laughter] >> if if we are waiting to hear such things from them then we should we'll hear it on the day we are told that the fowl has grown teeth. Mhm.

[00:15:13]Because you see, in in Nigeria, politics is about acquiring power and acquiring power for power's Right? So, there's um First, the the government has embarked on a lot of issues and and doctrine, but the way I judge is that like one of my professor at Princeton you you you you used to tell me, he said, "Where does it touch the ground?"

[00:15:39]Where do their economic policies or programs touch the ground? It means that how is it affecting the life of the average Nigerian? Can the Nigerian today say that their lives are better off today than it was 4 years ago? Mhm.

[00:15:57]Or So, so, that is the issue.

[00:15:59]Because if you're doing economic policy and you and you just look at mere statistics or what the policy experts are saying and you're not uh discerning or engaging the actual well-being of the people. Let them come out and tell us that that the well-being of the the economic well-being of the of the average Nigerian has improved, or even the middle class. Mhm. Sometimes even the upper class. So, so, so, so, we are seeing an a solution of equal opportunity of impoverishing yeah, everyone uh yeah yeah in the country. Then, but there's also the issue of communication.

[00:16:44]They have not you may not be able to achieve all all you want, but there is no great articulation, a vision that will carry Nigeria to say, "Okay, let us endure the pains today because tomorrow is going to be better."

[00:17:02]They they've not articulated it, and perhaps the the different politicians, the governments don't have the credibility for for us to even believe that we are going uh somewhere with them. Now, take Take for example the president in the campaign in 2023 22 said if I don't give you electricity when I come back to ask you, don't vote for me, right?

[00:17:31]Now, we don't need any engineer to tell us that the electricity situation has not improved. Now, we don't know what has taken place, but what we know is that the situation has not improved.

[00:17:45]Now, if the If it's a government that is very articulate they should the president and his men over should say, "I promise you" own up to that. "I promise you electricity and I've not delivered, but this is what I've done and this is what I'm going to do and this is where we are going or so, but it seems to be there's there's a silence there's a graveyard silence hoping that we all will suffer amnesia and and and forget what has been said. See, that is the issue of articulate We're not talking about many things. That was a great a a promise a binding promise that the president made. Fine, it has not happened.

[00:18:25]Come to us and explain why it has not happened and what is the plan that you have to to make it happen because that is a crucial thing.

[00:18:34]His reputation is on the line, right?

[00:18:39]And we've gone this in over the the APC made the same promise against Goodluck that when they come to power they're going to give us 8 years have already passed, but the president uh came in and people believed him that it we could get electricity. Electricity is an old technology. Why is it taking us such a difficult time to to get it? Even if we don't get to 100% everybody, why can't you achieve 50% meaning that half of the day the Nigerians have electricity.

[00:19:14]Mhm. But that has not happened and that is goes to the issue of articulation. As far as the other politicians are concerned, they are just they are talking about how to zone regions and accusing themselves, but you hardly get a clear articulate definition of what they intend to do.

[00:19:37]They are just they think that they will get the power and then the thinking will will come late later. So so there is really no debate. The Nigerian election has never been about debates about policy or policy direction. It's it's about who gets to uh get the power and use the state as a means of production. Simple. So it's a fight among the elites to control the level levels of government for the sake of accumulating wealth. If anybody thought that elections about helping Nigerians, the the the person's head should be should be re-examined.

[00:20:13]>> [laughter] >> Okay, you know, uh since we're already on politics, I'll ask uh one more question and then I will conclude with a question uh on the the the the deepening of the relationship between Nigeria and America. You know, we conclude like that, but let's finish this discussion on the political part.

[00:20:31]So, in your own view do you think that the opposition is sufficiently well organized? I mean, you are based in in the United States.

[00:20:40]There's a quite a bit of Nigerian community in the diaspora over there.

[00:20:44]What is the what what what is the narrative? What's your narrative? And then what's the narrative among Nigerian people regarding the opposition? I mean, lately we had uh uh Mr. Peter Obi who who uh was the Labor Party uh presidential candidate in 2023 who did exceedingly uh more than anybody thought in that election even though he didn't win, but you know, put up quite a bit of a stunt. Now, since that time, he's left LP, went to ADC, and then about 2 weeks ago, after the whole meeting in Ibadan, said we will have a singular, one single presidential candidate for the opposition, went to join NDC.

[00:21:25]In your view, you know, what what what what what is going on?

[00:21:29]Are they well organized?

[00:21:32]So, my um my thinking, and and talk talking to other Nigerians here, is clear that the opposition is not organized. Or they're not organized in a way to give anybody the confidence that they can take uh Tinubu out. People are increasingly coming to the conclusion that the man may win um uh yeah yeah yeah, a second time. Of course, um the idea that he might win is also based on the fact that we know how elections are conducted. If you are the incumbent, and you have the powers of the state, things tend to work in your favor, or they're used in your favor. But, the opposition is not organized. They are fragmented on on on different level or level of uh um ethnicity, or or all sorts of things.

[00:22:23]They are not organized, and they've not come out with a vision or policy framework that will energize and mobilize Nigerians at at at at to to follow. A lot of people are are following one candidate or that out of grief or or or some kind of resentment, more, but but but not really because they're pulled forward by a vision yeah yeah of a change. But, also from the It's not only the fault of the politician like Peter Obi, Atiku, or Amaechi, and all these other people.

[00:23:02]I've not seen enough of anger and and organization from the part of of the followers in Nigeria to to say are they themselves organized being mobilized in a way that they can they can they can remove vote out the the government if it if the government in office to install a new one or they can resist the the the use of the apparatus to seize of state to to continue in office. I'm I'm not getting that sense that there'll be a massive turnout of voters organized and determined to make a change. At the end of the day, they may get the the the same fractionalized along religious line ethnic lines and another source of divisions have of always been bedeviled the country. Now you you will say if the opposition is well organized, that is their duty to mobilize the followership.

[00:24:04]But that is a problem and and you and I and and others are going to be in a talk next week addressing the issue of of followership in Nigeria. So it's not only the the uh the case of um the leaders opposition not doing well.

[00:24:22]Do we have credible determined followership or citizenship at that that that is saying to themselves we want our country back.

[00:24:34]Mhm. And I don't get that sense that that is happening and is bubbling up from the grassroots. Mhm. I'm yet uh to read that. Yeah, that that that that that is a very important point uh that you made right there and of course uh like you said it is something that people such as retired General Ishola Williams has been very passionate about. He has spoken about it on this program several times.

[00:24:58]And yes, you're right that next week is NGO Pan African and Empower News Wire. They're going to be holding a national conference on the responsibility of followers in in in a lot of this situation. Very important point there.

[00:25:14]But let's let's let me ask you one more question on on politics and then we wrap up, you know, on this US-Nigeria relationship.

[00:25:22]You are from River State. Um uh the the governor, you know, Fubara, uh people such as Tony Cole, you know, both of them from the APC have said, "Hey, you know what? We're just going to step down." And [clears throat] you have a situation where Mr. Wike, who who is a PDP member in an APC government, uh seems to be the one that is going to determine what happens.

[00:25:49]How do you think that is going to affect the fortune and the future of River State?

[00:26:00]Well, I've been since this saga started, River State has been like a a joke in terms of politics, right? We We We have talked about it. It's It's very unfortunate what is happening in River State. For a state that um people fought to establish it because um in the in the politics of the 1940s and 50s, the minorities in River State fought a lot for for the state creation and eventually Gowon created the state for them in 1967.

[00:26:38]And to see that the the the fight for independence, the fight to to be self-determined is now completely been hijacked by a political class that seems to be so confused about what to do, and they're not delivering development to the people. And And we see all that is happening. So, yeah yeah, I'm from River State.

[00:26:58]And And And so, it's it's it's it's very sad. I mean I I mean what what what what what is happening in River State. And And And especially in the in in a situation where it seems like the state has been completely captured Mhm.

[00:27:14]by by one man and yeah and his group. This is state that the the the the president suspended the governor for for reasons that are not sacrosanct, for reasons that are not approved of. But But that was in the past. So, so we are going to through this. And I I don't see any serious form of opposition that would would stand up uh uh uh uh uh to to the Minister of of the uh uh cabinet to to write. I mean I mean he has a right to organize himself and and let his his his followers win. This is his Yeah is his right. This is his policies. But it's also the right of others and should be their inclination Mhm. to to mount an opposition to defeat him at the at the polls. But the question is, will the election at the polls be fair?

[00:28:12]Mhm. So, if if Rivers people are determined it doesn't matter yeah who comes up. The If the other parties there that they don't like his own candidate, they they can easily vote. But are they organized in that way? Will they defend their interests or they're going to on the day of election not come out at all, not defend their rights, or even in worst case scenario, take money from politician and turn blind eyes to the voting or not even vote at all? So, so what is happening in River State is is is is very And and and presentable as allowed it to to go on.

[00:28:51]It might be a reverse problem today. If you're not careful, it will become the problem of the nation somehow. That is how in the 60s and late 50s, it was a Western problem. Then it became a national problem and and the country country was thrown into into into into chaos, right? Because something like Martin Luther King said that injustice anywhere is an injustice everywhere. Yeah.

[00:29:19]And and if we're not paying attention to this side, the reverse model will become the standard model because people are looking at the situation and says yeah, if this works in River State, every ex-governor is going to behave in the same way. And before we know the whole um country states will become fiefdoms.

[00:29:41]Uncontrolled. So So our democracy will just only Yeah, yeah, only be in name.

[00:29:45]Okay.

[00:29:45]>> some people say that the the the country has already been captured for a long time, top to bottom, by um this class of people. And what is happening in River State is that we are now being shown it in a way that we cannot deny that the country has been captured by certain interests from Sokoto to River State, from the federal government to the local government.

[00:30:09]>> Thank you so much, uh Professor Wole Soyinka. We we have to come to this discussion as we go forward, especially uh going into more details of the specifics of what Nigeria should do in this very interesting >> [music] >> uh global dynamics that we are witnessing. Thank you for coming to Inside Sources.