“It’s Not Going AWAY!” | Bridget Phillipson To Ban Trans Women From Female Toilets

追加: 2026-05-22

[00:00:00]There's only one person to speak to, the director of campaigns at the excellent Sex Matters, "Hey Macarena!" Afieryna Macarena, how are you? Good morning. I'm very well. How are you? I'm all right, mate. And you lot always put this into to to perfectly obvious terms to me. Am I wrong? We've now got an a situation where a man dressed as a woman is not allowed to use a female toilet, but if you do see them doing it, you're not allowed to challenge them at all. It's ludicrous.

[00:00:27]Well, let's just celebrate first the fact that we finally have this guidance.

[00:00:31]And all those people who were saying, "Oh no, I'm not going to follow the law.

[00:00:34]I'm not going to act on the Supreme Court judgment. I'm waiting for guidance."

[00:00:39]They have no excuse anymore. We've been through this guidance with some care, Jeremy.

[00:00:44]Um it does say you can challenge, and it does say you can ask someone to leave, but it says it very cautiously. It's buried deep in there. Um but, you know, what we would say is if someone doesn't want to be challenged because they're in the wrong facilities, don't go in.

[00:01:00]You know, the problem we've got here is that people are no longer confident that when they go into a single-sex facility, that there won't be that's meant to be women only, there won't be a man in there. And if men would stop going in there, then no one would be challenged, would they? So, I think the guidance it does say it says you have to be respectful and careful and all that kind of stuff, but uh the bottom line is it's pretty clear that we are now returning to some kind of of common sense, and we welcome that. And it's not just toilets and changing rooms, it's other important things like single-sex associations, so lesbians can have their lesbian nights again, uh and dating apps without being forced to being confronted by men who claim to be lesbians. It's sport, which is a huge area. Um it it's, you know, it's everywhere where someone has said, "Look, sex really matters here. I need it to be women only or girls only." Or even, you know, men only, boys only. And we can do that confident that the law backs us. Um can I ask the the reason that I always turn to Sex Matters are because you lot know so much and you and you always put it so well. Um So the guidance from the Supreme Court was that, you know, it it should be based on biological sex. I get that.

[00:02:11]It's taken Philipson a year. We picked up a loophole which you say isn't actually relevant, although you have to dig to find it.

[00:02:18]>> [snorts] >> Male toilets, female toilets, disabled toilets.

[00:02:22]What's the answer to the transgender debate? Is it they should have their own toilet? What what what is what what is what is common sense as the answer to this? Cuz it's not going away.

[00:02:35]No, and the vast majority of people, you know, 99% of people are male or female and happy to use those toilets. And what we're talking about here is how do we help a small percentage of people who know what sex they are and don't like it. Yeah. Now the fact is they're still able to use the toilets of their sex unless a woman who's taken so much testosterone that she's grown a beard and looks like a man. Clearly, she's going to unsettle other women as she goes in the women's. So for those rare rare people who really should not or cannot use their their the sex for their the facilities for their sex, there are generally unisex or accessible options. And you know, it's I mean, disabled people will tell you life is hard if >> Yeah. you're not if you don't conform to the norms. It's it's more difficult. You have to plan, but nowadays there's a lot more accessible and unisex provision than there used to be. We talk about, you know, how common sense has prevailed. Philipson is the equalities minister and the education minister. Do you think this was finally instigated by her in a begrudging way?

[00:03:38]I think it's been um it's been very carefully vetted so that it is not likely to be challenged legally by anyone. So that because trans activists and trans people were told for years that they had rights they didn't have. And so they're finding it hard to stomach reality. But, you know, they never did have the right to go in the opposite sex changing rooms or or or or facilities or sport. Um so, I think it's been written, you know, very carefully to try and cover that off. And that's why that that thing you picked up, Jeremy, is written like it is, I rather suspect. There's a sort of caution about challenging people because they know it won't be popular to say to someone, "I'm sorry, but are you a woman? Should you be in here?" But, eventually it gets to the point, which is you can do that. And what's more, you must do that, because otherwise you're failing everyone else. If you do not keep men out of women's private spaces, then all those women are losing their privacy. And really, we should be pointing to the individuals themselves and saying, "You know what sex you are.

[00:04:37]You know the right thing. Do not impose where you're not supposed to be and where you know it makes other people uncomfortable." Couldn't agree more, lovely. Seriously to have you on. Have a fantastic Oh, just very quickly, don't you very Camping, glamping, yes or no?

[00:04:51]Absolutely not. Nowhere where the bathroom is worse than your bathroom at home. Brilliant. Okay, Sonia, I'm I'm not going next week. My kids can go on their own with their godparents. Fiona Macrae, director of campaigns at Sex Matters, thank you very much indeed.