Washington and Arnold: Honor and Betrayal in the Revolutionary War | Nathaniel Philbrick

Añadido: 2026-06-04

[00:00:00]The evolution of Washington was something that is central to why we are a country. I needed to figure out how did this happen? The American Revolution, it's our our genesis. It's biblical in all sorts of ways as far as how it's set up, the characters, and particularly Benedict Arnold. Arnold's betrayal in a way we needed in Arnold.

[00:00:23]Washington's character part of it is his faith in several senses of the word faith that if I do the right thing somehow we will prevail. Very few people in life and very few situations in life where you see this kind of tenacity, patience, humility and strength of character allowed to prevail.

[00:00:53]Welcome to Socrates in the City. We're in the city of almost Boston. We're in Lexington, Massachusetts. This is part of our revolutionary series to celebrate the 250th super centennial uh year and um we've been having wonderful conversations but I have to say I'm particularly excited about the conversation uh I hope to have right now with Nathaniel Philick who is my guest. He's the author of so many books. Uh I I I don't know where to start. He's a New York Times bestselling author. uh his books on American history have earned some of the country's most prestigious literary honors. Uh and I just want to say as a fellow author, I'm not at all bitter.

[00:01:41]Um his 2000 not at all. Uh his 2000 book, In the Heart of the Sea, uh won the National Book Award for non-fiction uh became the basis of the Ron Howard uh film um Splash.

[00:01:57]uh his incredible inc that's really uh he he's written so many books my goodness books on the Mayflower um today we're talking about really three of the books that he's written a glorious trilogy um on the American Revolution those books which I have here um are Bunker Hill a siege a city of siege age a revolution.

[00:02:28]Um, sorry, George Washington. George Washington, Benedict Arnold and the fate of the American Revolution, which the title is valiant ambition. Uh, and then in the hurricane's eye, the genius of George Washington and the victory at Yorktown.

[00:02:46]Uh, Nathaniel, once again, welcome. Just really thrilled to have you.

[00:02:50]>> It's great to be here. I the I often say this, but I really mean it as much as I do right now. I don't know where to start. Um, particularly because we do want to talk about the revolution. I want to probably focus mostly on George Washington, but you uh have done something really wonderful in writing these three very readable books about the American Revolution. So, why don't I start with um how it is that you found yourself writing three uh books on the American Revolution?

[00:03:24]>> Well, it kind of happened by accident. I live on Nantucket Island and uh and when I was thinking about writing what would become Bunker Hill uh Nantucket had 15,000 people and when I was a kid my favorite book growing up was Johnny Tmaine Esther Forbes you know a great Disney movie and uh we moved to Boston uh my wife and I and we had a small child and I was at home with Jenny and we were on in the North End and I was pull pushing her stroller uh through the crooked streets of the North End up to Cops Hill and I was thinking, you know, what was Boston like at the time of Johnny Tmaine? And uh and so I started going to the Boston Public Library on Sundays and you know realizing that Boston today bears very little resemblance to what it was then. It was Boston was a 1.1 square mile island uh with mount hills of mountainous proportions with 15,000 people on them. And my books tend to be about communities of people under enormous stress, whether it's the crew of a whale ship that's just been rammed by a whale, 102 pilgrims on their way to a coast about which they know nothing.

[00:04:45]And I thought, what would it be like to live in a community uh similar to the one I was in, an island community with 15,000 people? You don't know everyone, but you recognize just about everyone. I mean, it's very intimate kind of life. What would it be like to write about the the city of Johnny Tmaine undergoing the enormous upheaval of a revolution? And so that led me to writing what would become Bunker Hill. roughly was it that you got the first idea?

[00:05:17]>> Yeah, this would have been about 200 oh no 1980 six was when I first started thinking about things, but it wouldn't be it'd be until 200 that I began.

[00:05:32]>> So, but you were living in Boston in 1986.

[00:05:35]>> Yes.

[00:05:35]>> So, was I pretty sure I remember you pushing that stroller.

[00:05:41]>> You don't People don't have to believe me, but I know what I know. Um but it's extraordinary to think suddenly uh as we were saying earlier how long ago that is suddenly uh suddenly 40 years ago. But so that's the idea that you got. Now when you refer to Boston as an island um I have to ask you it was I'm under the impression that it was a peninsula uh with a narrow.

[00:06:09]Um, I really just wanted to work the word ithmas into the conversation. Um, >> well, it was kind of it was called the neck. So, it was a uh and at spring high tide uh it would actually be underwater that connected Boston to Roxbury. It's now Washington Street and >> Okay. See, I I didn't know that. And so, this is the thing. I learned things from you from reading your books and now from talking to you. Um, but I do know that if people would approach it uh and it was low tide and they could walk across Yeah. they would sayithmas be my lucky day.

[00:06:46]>> And that's where the term came from.

[00:06:49]>> I I really apologize.

[00:06:51]I uh we may edit that out, but please don't please don't. Um so dumb. Well, keep going because I honestly didn't know this. This is is extraordinary.

[00:07:04]>> I started writing uh Bunker Hill and the climax was the battle. But I was absolutely blown away when this figure named George Washington appeared a few weeks later. You know, the battle was over. And you know, I had grown up thinking, well, the father of our country, what could be more boring than a guy who is the father of your country?

[00:07:25]I mean, it's kind of the way it was for me with the pilgrims. I grew up thinking the pilgrims were people with funny hats. and what did they really have to do with the history of this country? And I that I was proven totally wrong with that. And boy, this was not the Washington you see on the $1 bill. You know, this was Washington still in his 40s. His hair is is reddish brown. He is not yet the stayed uh strategic thinker that he will become. He is an aggressive leader who wants to end this thing and isn't happy at all with the New Englanders he's found. Uh these are not this is there he's not in Virginia anymore, you know, a hierarchical society where people know their place.

[00:08:11]This is New England where there is the uh the the wonderful institution of the town meeting. We still have one on Nantucket where it's democracy at its bare knuckle best. you know, you you you have an idea be uh a proposition before the assembled and you fight it out and somehow you come to a decision. And so when Washington ordered, you know, the the militia men that were now provincial army that would ultimately become the basis of the Continental Army, he'd give an order and they say, "Whoa, wait a minute. Let us discuss this uh and see if we think it's a good idea. And if it is, we'd be happy to do it." That's I mean that is so fascinating and I I was myself astounded by that idea that Washington he's 42 years old. He shows up and he might as well be on the moon.

[00:09:00]It's as different from Virginia, the stratified life in in Virginia as can be imagined. And this idea that >> it's so egalitarian up here. Yeah.

[00:09:11]>> That they would dare qu I guess Baron von Stuben says something about that, right? when he gives his orders that uh you know here you have to explain why.

[00:09:21]>> Yes.

[00:09:21]>> And I can imagine this didn't go well with Washington.

[00:09:23]>> No, it didn't. And you know, some of his remarks went public.

[00:09:27]>> Uh uh the the New Englanders were not happy. And um and then so you see Washington beginning to realize, wait, you know, this is this is going to be complicated. Um everything's not like Virginia. uh people don't you know the this these were 13 independent polities at this point. I mean they really were not a country yet and and this would be part of what Washington would accomplish and and so Washington was this aggressive leader that was unrecognizable to me who would go before his council of war and say we have to you know how are we going to hold these people together for any length of time.

[00:10:03]We need to end it here. we need to attack the British who are dug into Boston, which would have been suicidal because the Americans didn't have the the gunpowder.

[00:10:13]>> But he still wanted to he still wanted to he want, you know, he had a chip on his shoulder during the Seven Years War.

[00:10:20]Uh, you know, he had wanted desperately to be a British, you know, officer and he never was offered that. And um and so he was you know a combination of personal ambition and I think real concern that you know this this is such a disorganized mob. How could you know we hold this together for any length of time beyond Boston? Let's end it here.

[00:10:45]But uh and ultimately uh uh he would prevail uh after a siege uh when Henry Knox um his his brilliant young artillery officer. And by the way, the one thing Washington proved at the very beginning was he was an incredible judge of talent.

[00:11:03]>> You know, all the artillery officers he had inherited were older, conservative.

[00:11:09]He says, "Nope, I see this young book seller." The only thing he knows about the military is from the books he he would sell to friends like Nathaniel Green. Um uh this guy has potential and it would be Knox who would uh make the trip in the dead of winter to Fort Ticonderoga. Uh load a couple of cannons onto sleds pulled by um uh oxmen and horses. a place uh they would actually go down the frozen Hudson River uh in Albany. One of the cannons would go through the ice. They'd get it back up and for the rest of the the war it would be known the cannon would be called the Albany. And he then the hard part was going over the Birkshshire mountains and they would deliver them to Framingham and then a few of those cannons would end up on Dorchester Heights and the British would have to >> Well, this story so captivated me. I write about it in in my book and uh uh two days ago we devoted an hour to that with William Hazelgrove uh who wrote a book on uh the magnificent accomplishment of Henry. It's just one of the greatest feats in military history. It's amazing and uh I'm glad I'm glad you brought it up. Um, but Washington uh I guess I still want to uh you to help to answer what was it that because you're a writer and I'm a writer and I'm fascinated with this idea that so you said okay I want to write a book about Boston and Bunker Hill but you've written three books on the revolution.

[00:12:48]Was that something that occurred to you while you're telling the story of Bunker Hill?

[00:12:53]>> It was well it was Washington. I said by the end of it I said I have to find out what happens. You know what? How is Washington going to be capable of winning this thing? It was you know I write all my books not because I'm an expert on the topic but because I haven't read the book I would like to read about how this unfolded. And so I I I decided I needed to follow this through. and so um uh set about to write the next two books uh with Washington really as the focus. Um the second book would pair him with Benedict Darnold uh in Valiant Ambition. Uh and uh but it seemed like the evolution of Washington was something that is central to why we are a country. Uh and uh and I needed to figure out how did this happen? How did the how could one individual have the ability >> to evolve? Yeah. And uh because that's hard. Most of us are who we are, you know, and we spend the the rest of our lives blaming the the world for not conforming to what we think it should be. Washington from the beginning >> realized he needed to adjust his behaviors >> to succeed. You know, as a kid, he's, you know, there he is the rules of civility. Yeah, >> he had an anger management issue as a as a kid. He was a hotthead >> and he was getting himself into trouble and um and he realized that and that's that takes a lot of introspection and a powerful personality to say okay you know he he he wouldn't indulge his personality to the point where let me find out who the real me is. I think Washington it was I need to adapt to achieve what I want to achieve.

[00:14:51]>> Yeah, that's beautifully said and he really was. It takes tremendous humility uh to say that >> I'm willing to change and then to dedicate oneself actually to changing which he does and you're right he does that early on. It's it's an extraordinary thing uh that he sets himself to do it and then actually does it and then is humble enough throughout the years to be adapting to circumstances. I I I'm reminded of when he shows up in uh Cambridge in Boston, he wrinkles his nose at the idea of black soldiers. And by the time I months later, uh, he's inviting the black poet Phyllis Wheatley. Yes.

[00:15:42]>> To join him at his Cambridge headquarters. And you think, >> wow. Well, for Yeah. for a slave slave owner from Virginia, you know, who prior to the war was kind of the epitome of a of a plantation owner to undergo begin to undergo. You know, that's the thing about the revolution. It was chaotic, but it was a tremendously creative time, you know, and um and it's a it's a society in it's red-hot in terms of what's happening. People are making it up as they go along, and it's the people who emerge in this tremendously challenging uh environment um are ones that are up to the task of what Washington was, self-reflection of change. I mean, and what's interesting about Washington, he w he had humility. He had patience, tremendous patience, but he also had this overweening ambition. Yeah.

[00:16:40]>> He was he was swinging for the absolute fences. He wanted to be remembered forever. Yeah.

[00:16:46]>> You know, he was his audience was posterity. Yeah. It wasn't the people around him. It was going to be people uh in the future times. And that I mean to have that that is ambition of the grandest scale >> but it requires someone to realize okay if I'm going to do that sometimes I have to do something that's not popular sometimes I have to do something that's against my own personal instincts and and it also requires someone who can see the the bigger picture not let you know the needling stuff that we all deal with overwhelm m his appreciation for what has to happen in the long term.

[00:17:29]>> The it reminds me of the uh the the Greek New Testament word for meekness.

[00:17:33]weakness is a bad uh English word for it, but it's uh strength, great strength bridled like you think of a powerful horse but bridled and that when I think of Washington tremendous passion, >> yeah, >> uh strength and ambition as you say, but he had the great wisdom and ultimately a kind of faith to say I will submit that to something. uh even in his dealings with Congress very you know at some point we can talk about Benedict Arnold but the way Washington was willing to submit to the strictctures of civilian authority to where he he might have said I know better his character really is at the center of of everything and it's kind of funny to me that they they pick him And I guess it becomes impossible to imagine the revolution without him.

[00:18:34]>> No, it is. And and um and I think why he flourished was, you know, he had all of the attributes we talk about. Um and one of the things when it he wasn't the greatest military mind, >> right? He wasn't, you know, constantly you see him, particularly in the first years, making really um, you know, coming up with battle plans that are impossible. Uh, making impulsive decisions, you know, just at the wrong moment, you know, these kinds of things.

[00:19:04]But where his real talent lay was a he knew to to talk to Nathaniel Green who always gave him the best advice, you know, and that was to go, you know, rather than go out there and knock them out, we're going to play rope a dope.

[00:19:18]We're going to a war of posts where we're going to, you know, let it happen.

[00:19:23]We don't want to risk losing everything.

[00:19:25]And you know, and that angered Congress because Congress thought, well, your military, you have you should be attacking. and it killed him because it was against his own instincts. But this is when you see wa Washington's I think true genius is political because like you said he realiz you know for this experiment in in a republic to work he there needed to be a ci a government of the people and they needed to be in charge and they you know and Congress has always been dysfunctional and it was dysfunctional then >> and um it just must have you know they they theyighed in and determine who should be a major general when they don't, you know, it's all politics and it's undermining his authority. It's just the worst thing. But he, you know, he never says, you know, you're a bunch of idiots. He, you know, I'm sure he was saying that privately, but he knew how to, you know, when when his other generals would try to, you know, maneuver around him and pander to Congress, he would play that game. uh very expertly I think with with a um a skill that he didn't necessarily have when it came to you know on the battlefield strategy.

[00:20:46]>> Well, that's what's so fascinating is that it's not like Congress really knew when they picked him how valuable his character and virtue would be ultimately or maybe some of them did. But um you can see why Charles Lee and Horatio Gates are constantly gunning for his job behind the scenes. And I shudder to think what would have happened, you know, if Charles Lee would have been in charge or or Horatio Gates.

[00:21:16]Um he was a man of honor and and principle. It it's it's sort of breathtaking. There are moments where I just uh I marvel at >> well you know and he's I won't say he's lucky but and you know one of the young officers to emerge who arrives just out of you know almost parachutes in is Lafayette you know Lafayette I mean this you know this is he's one of the richest people in France um he you know and he wants to he wants to be a you know achieve glory on the battlefield he comes over. You know, I've been to Lafayette. They call it Lafayette's castle. It's just outside Par Paris. Was actually owned by his wife and it's where he lived in the, you know, the final decades. And there it's it's it's a very um it's it's an informal Lafayette museum. And there is his copy, his his French English dictionary could fit in his pocket. And what's extraordinary about Lafia, he didn't know English when he arrived. Within months, he is writing the most articulate letters, you know, to him.

[00:22:28]And one of them is in that terrible Winter Valley Forge where, you know, it's just it's not going well on any front there. Oh, the Congress is gunning for him. You know, Catio Gates, you know, everyone's gunning for him. And, you know, it's really bad. and and Lafayette um you know who's brand new to things writes this extraordinary letter you know saying I have hitched my star to you you know you are you know words to that effect and for for Washington you know this is the kid he has never had you know this is the son um you know this is exactly it fulfills I think a deep yearning in him but it's also someone who who where he also says says in that same extraordinary letter, he said there's no one else who could do this. He now knows all the other possible suspects and he says, you know, they're not you can just and you look back, you know, they they've all got issues. I mean, every all of them, everybody does. Washington was the one who had the agraitas um the humility and uh the ambition and and and um skill to pull it off and um it's extraordinary.

[00:23:47]>> I think that's the moment I I I'm not sure but I think that's the moment when Horatio Gates foolishly tries to drag Lafayette to his side and Lafayette's like I don't think so. and he writes that's when he writes that letter to Washington and that's part of Washington's magic is that he inspires love and respect uh in in these figures that I mean Henry Knox you get the impression that he did what he did partially wanting to impress this man that he loved and respected.

[00:24:20]>> Absolutely. And Knox is is interesting because um uh you know Knox is there at some critical ventures early on um just before the the the Battle of Long Island or Brooklyn Heights, you know, it doesn't go well, but the British are are trying to, you know, negotiate with Washington, you know, but they're not willing to acknowledge him, you know, all this. Well, now willing to acknowledge him as General Washington, the head of this new country.

[00:24:50]>> Right. Right. So, not you, but they, you know, are still trying, you know, they're trying to undermine him all this and so they send a fairly minor officer in to try to talk to him. And the thing about Washington was, which we haven't really talked about, was his charisma, his physical presence. I mean, you know, we've all been in the presence of charismatic people. Um, but I think Washington would blow everyone I, you know, away. I mean, there was a presence about him. You know, he was over six feet at a time when people were rarely over 510. Um, you know, he just had that look. And what Knox describes is, you know, this officer comes in and um and you know, I'm paraphrasing here, but Knox says, you know, um I think he's writing to Nathaniel Green was his good friend, saying, you know, this officer in the presence of his excellency was overwhelmed by, you know, this almost otherworldly.

[00:25:46]>> He says almost supernatural.

[00:25:48]>> Exactly. Yeah. And um you know and that you know that's that's a power to have you know if you know you have that >> and you know you can use something like that in a very tactical way and you know Washington loved the theater he loved going to and he you know he was not an ortor >> by any means but he had a sense of drama and he knew when you know don't talk too much but when it you know when it was good time to say something. He knew exactly when to do that.

[00:26:23]>> Part of actually I mean it reminds me that it's as though he knew and I guess on some level at least on some level he knew he was playing a role in history.

[00:26:36]Uh he was at least playing a role in this drama of the the revolution. He was aware of himself as playing a role. And and I don't mean that and I don't think he would have seen it as on any level false uh or or or acting or hypocritical. Precisely the opposite that he had to rise to play the role that he's been given by history and he was really keenly aware of that.

[00:27:06]>> Oh yes. And the classics were so important to all of them. And you know his his phrase that you see over and over again used by Washington and and his officers is you know um we we may not win but we should act as if we deserved it. you're assuming a role, a role that is, you know, come down from the ancients, you know, Greeks. Um, you know, these are time-tested approaches to life and um and you know, it's not bad to shape your conduct, you know, in ways that have um have earned the respect and of of people throughout the centuries. and um you know and it's it's it's a willingness to see beyond your own specific needs and time um that you don't see much anymore.

[00:28:03]>> Well, you certainly don't. And we've been living in an era when the whatever that is is instantly portrayed as hypocrisy or something. Um but it goes all the way back to, you know, Rouso and the byonic hero. this idea that I'm going to express myself and who I am >> innately uh which is this kind of strange subjectivity the triumph of subjectivity and this is the opposite of that.

[00:28:33]>> Absolutely. Yeah. It's classical versus romantic. Yes. And Yeah. And and you know I I think you know we're today or you know ever since romanticism uh the the the idea of indulging who we are you know finding out who we are you know is is uh you know is is kind of what you're supposed to do when you know someone like Washington was was saying wait a minute you know yes we're all temptestuous emotional uh people you know um the the challenge challenge is to direct those energies in a way that isn't just necessarily about what we want but what is for a greater good.

[00:29:16]>> Which brings us to the subject uh of that figure known as Benedict Arnold.

[00:29:22]Yes.

[00:29:22]>> Who in many ways was exactly um the opposite uh dramatically. So, um, it it there's a comic aspect to it on almost in a way how different when you think of Washington, uh, bridling his passions and Arnold wanting to ride his passions to glory, uh, in a way.

[00:29:44]>> Um, and yet, I mean, Arnold Washington uh, regarded uh, Arnold as one of his best generals before things. Well, obviously to some extent he really was.

[00:30:00]>> He was he my mother when I grew my mother was a contrarian and when I was growing up >> No, she wasn't.

[00:30:08]>> Hey, she smoked a corn cob pipe when she lit up at uh you know if we went out to a restaurant on a Friday evening. It was very embarrassing to my brother and I when she u anyways but uh her one of her heroes was Benedict Darnold. And why? Why?

[00:30:24]>> Uh because he had been wronged and he had been um and she was a contrarian and she knew that you know growing up you know if you're an evil person or you know you're a Benedict Arnold and so she enjoyed looking at that and I you know and after uh writing Valiant Ambition you know I I have to admit mom was right to a certain degree. Well, that's the whole in in writing my book, I really had to struggle with this because I thought >> this is I mean it's at least extremely fascinating to look at this figure named Benedict Darnold because if he had been killed at Saratoga >> Yep.

[00:31:02]>> which he says I wish the bullet had gone through my heart and you know so do I.

[00:31:07]Uh it really is amazing how great he was. And I think that speaks to this issue of the temptation if you're great to know that you're great, to think that you're great, to think that you deserve to be seen as great. He really was outrageously gifted.

[00:31:27]>> Yeah.

[00:31:27]>> Um and grievously wronged.

[00:31:31]>> Yeah.

[00:31:31]>> By Congress and others. So initially I think most people have you have a sympathy go oh my goodness the way they've treated him.

[00:31:40]>> Yeah. No and it's it's it is human nature to you know he w he was not only overlooked for promotion he was terribly physically injured um >> repeatedly in the same leg uh which ultimately ended up two inches shorter.

[00:31:56]M >> and this was someone who was probably the most gifted a athlete short of Washington in the uh American officer corps. Um he was, you know, his physicality was part of who he was. Um and um and he was handsome and uh passionate uh and you know and Washington was those things too. But as we've discussed earlier, you know, he had an essential humility and ability to re in uh those passions. And that's where you you see Arnold being pushed pushed pushed uh toward a precipice. And uh the you know one of the the great whatifs um I I I I found in in looking you know examining all of this was you know one of Arnold's great performances uh is on the uh Lake Champlain uh where he is you know an admiral over what was known as the mosquito fleet basically ro big rowboats with guns and and um and sails on them and he somehow miraculously ly fights the British to a draw and and makes them decide maybe we don't need to take Fort Ticonderoga in 1776. Let's wait till the the next year. This huge huge victory that basically saved uh the American cause because uh the British had taken New York and and were on their way to taking control of the Hudson. And you know he does th this he's really good at it and at one point you know where he's getting frustrated by being overlooked by Congress he says you know I'd like to be in the Navy >> right >> and he you know he brings this up and I think that's the great what if because a naval officer >> you know a John Paul Jones figure is his you own can be his own passionate tyrannical self on a ship and um and win and win great glory and victory and can also win money because you know if you he takes and that would have fed his passions um >> but no that wasn't his fate and I think what >> because of that you see one of the most fascinating um anatomies of of a personality as it's being dissected uh through you know the I mean that's the thing we forget at how long the revolution was. I mean, this is years, eight years this is going on. And it's physically taxing. It's it's with Arnold, you know, it's he's sort of like that Monty Python character where, you know, one legs goes off and I'm not dead yet. And um but he he hangs in there and you know, you see him begin to think he is bigger than the cause he is fighting.

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[00:35:45]This is why I find it just so it's just extremely fascinating and it's why I wrote as much as I did about him because you're trying to make sense of it and what it really boils down to if you're solving for X. Um Washington has the ability to swallow his pride when he has to.

[00:36:05]Arnold does not.

[00:36:06]>> Nope. Never.

[00:36:07]>> And that's the fatal downfall of of Benedict Arnold. it is the fatal downfall and it just would lead him to these behaviors where you know there's this court marshal in Morristown, New Jersey uh in the midst of the worst winter America has probably ever suffered. You know, four feet of snow outside and drifts twice that. And you know, he is before his fellow officers being tried for uh various misdemeaners while he was uh military governor of Philadelphia. And you know, he's he some of his best friends are there and he is just lying to them, you know, through not even his teeth. He's just letting it go. You know, here I am hurt and all of this stuff. He's been, you know, sending uh uh uh coded letters to the British revealing, you know, the secrets that will, you know, imperil everyone there.

[00:37:07]and he is just this wronged indignant truth seeker. At least that's the part he's playing. And you know, and there you go. I mean, they're all we're all playing roles in life. Who do you choose? Do you go um you know, are you are you Satan? Do you play that role? I mean, or or you know, and and watching, you know, and so you watch the seductive power Yeah.

[00:37:31]>> of of evil really. I mean, you know, I'm I'm a a spiritual guy, too, and you can't help but feel those, you know, the the the the swirling forces of good versus evil, you know, um you know, hanging over things while he, you know, gives this performance. It's it's so dramatic that in in in in the chapter in one of the chapters in my book, I quote the, you know, Satan's speech in Paradise Lost. It's that >> it's that close that you just think there's I don't know you know as you're casting about for how to describe this you you you turn to uh Milton Satan you know it's like >> and but that happened gradually that's what's so fascinating as you watch these characters evolve and uh we we look at Washington through the course of the war he changes but for uh Arnold it seems to have happened in Philadelphia that's where somebody, it wasn't you, another author talks about uh his bitterness um curdled into settled malice, I think was the phrase, and you realize, yeah, it it happened in Philadelphia. He became >> something happened fatally to him.

[00:38:52]>> Yeah. Well, you know, and he there he decided he was going to make some money on the side. So he's doing all sorts of crooked business deals and he you know what Philadelphia is uh it's a civil war going on within the revolution in Philadelphia where Philadelphia is you know the radical left and the radical right is happening in Philadelphia >> and um and Arnold go embraces the royalists basically and um you know has fancy carriages and and all of that.

[00:39:26]just to to forgive me for interrupting, but to set the stage. I mean, so yeah, so he's horribly injured at Saratoga. So Washington in a crazy moment. Uh because you wonder what was Washington in some ways must have been a terrible judge of people on some level to pick Arnold to be the military governor, whatever it was, of Philadelphia at this time because he was the least qualified on planet Earth for the job. And Arnold, what's interesting to me is that Arnold doesn't care about appearances. He his attitude is, I got a I got it coming. I've suffered for my country, so I'm going to live large and I'm going to make some money. And technically it was legal technically, but Washington cared about appearance.

[00:40:13]>> Yes.

[00:40:14]>> And Washington was the exact opposite.

[00:40:16]that Washington would go out of his way to do the right thing so that everybody sees him doing the right thing. Arnold didn't care. And so he he destroys himself by living large, I guess.

[00:40:28]>> Yeah. And we have to talk about um on both sides, Washington and Arnold, you know, who they're married to. Um, you know, Washington is married to Martha who makes the point of going to every winter quarters, you know, is there, you know, is tr It's just too bad we don't have the letters they wrote.

[00:40:47]>> Oh gosh.

[00:40:48]>> Cuz I mean they >> cuz she burned them.

[00:40:50]>> She burned them. Yeah. Probably at his request. Who know? You know, if you're going for posterity, you don't want the letters around. But um but and then Arnold, you know, whose wife tragically dies while first wife dies while he's at Ticonderoga. He's got three kids.

[00:41:08]>> His his sister Hannah keeps the family together, but it's while he's in Philadelphia that he meets 18-year-old Peggy Shippen. um beautiful uh daughter of a suspected loyalist uh who you know had had she and her sisters had powled around with the the the British officers during the occupation of Philadelphia particularly one John Andre and um and you know so Arnold is at that moment and and they get married and um and I don't think she was >> you don't think she was a good influence I >> I don't think she was providing getting the emotional support that Martha was providing. I think it was a very different kind of situation. Who we're spending our lives with has a huge influence on how we think. And that's the fascinating thing about the American Revolution. um you know we have people have their official roles as you know a military officer as a as a congressman or whatever but you know they were these were people with families and personal lives that were so tested by this neverending um uh you know war uh that you know that those personal sides inevitably bled into all of it. Martha Washington, I discovered, was a woman of tremendous Christian faith. I hadn't realized that.

[00:42:36]>> And Peggy Shippen was like, you know, the ultimate party girl. Uh, and but nobody forced Benedict Arnold to marry her, of course, but it is fascinating how that plays its role um >> in what happens with him. Well, so I guess Washington I I find it almost funny and charming in a way that Washington was so surprised by Arnold's um betrayal.

[00:43:08]>> Yeah. I mean, well, it's Yes. Because you Well, you know, and this is where his historians have an unfair advantage.

[00:43:15]you know, we know where it's headed. And um and when so when you look you look at, you know, the all the signs are there, you know, as as you're looking at the evidence, you you see what's going on and you just say, Washington, why don't you see this coming? But, you know, Washington here, you know, the French are now part of the war. He's he he he's going up to Connecticut to meet with Roshambo when all of this is happening. This is a big deal. I mean, you know, it's it's an ally that will either save or not America. Um, this is all going on. And yes, he's got, you know, Arnold's >> now um uh the he's now the common dant at at at uh the the fortress at West Point. and um and >> and things are going on and and you know and but it it it's a budgeon to Washington when he learns >> although I mean to be fair to Washington I think almost nobody really saw who Arnold was he somehow um I think it would have been very difficult to see who he was only Ethan Allen seems to have seen it there's to quote I quote Ethan Allen uh I guess he was testifying against Arnold in already in Philadelphia during the court marshal and he goes on about >> Yeah. And Ethan Allen was no was a piece of work too, >> right?

[00:44:50]>> Yeah.

[00:44:51]>> But yes, he was.

[00:44:52]>> Yeah. Yeah. No. And and you know what I you're absolutely right in saying how hard it was to see this coming because you know Arnold's own aids, you know, they're they're with him every day.

[00:45:04]They're seeing as you know, no one could be closer to him.

[00:45:09]>> And you know, it was immediately suspected after his treachery was revealed that they were somehow in on this. There's absolutely no evidence that they were. um you know uh and uh one of them would actually go on to become the the the mayor of New York. I mean, you know, there was, you know, absolutely no they were fooled. Um, absolutely fooled.

[00:45:31]And so, yes, so Washington, um, you know, there are the signs, but, you know, and then there is that time where he, you know, Hamilton gives him the evidence.

[00:45:40]>> You know, there they are at, um, Arnold's uh, quarters there as common to West Point and and Washington is there with Lafayette. I mean, it's you can't make this stuff up. I mean, here he is with, you know, the the officers most close to him and he turns and he says, "Whom can we trust now?"

[00:46:02]>> I mean, he didn't.

[00:46:03]>> Can you imagine?

[00:46:04]>> Yeah.

[00:46:04]>> What, you know, the that feeling, >> right? It's it's all it's almost unbelievable. And right upstairs is Peggy Shippen, >> right? Who is >> who's losing her mind and then acting even crazier than it it that's that's a scene, boy. It's like a made up, you know, and but that's it. I mean, suddenly Washington, you know, I mean, one of the great a great leader >> um supervises his staff but also gives them room, >> right, >> to do their thing. I mean, you can't have someone hovering all the time. And Washington was very good at that.

[00:46:41]>> But of course, then there's the the evidence of Arnold and um you know, but you know, there he is. there you begin to think, well, we're fighting the British, but are we really fighting ourselves?

[00:46:53]>> Mhm.

[00:46:54]>> Um, >> well, there's a moment that where where it's really heartbreaking to me is where I think Washington, like many people, felt bad for Arnold. He knew that Arnold had been wronged, but he also felt that Arnold had behaved, you know, very poorly in Philadelphia, and so he has to be officially reprimanded. Congress demands that Washington in his orders reprimand, you know, and you can imagine Washington was not happy about having to do that, but he does it. But then he wants to make it up to him.

[00:47:25]>> Yeah.

[00:47:27]>> And you you you you see Washington thinking, well, okay, we're going to put this past us now, and I'm going to give you a plum job. And he offers Arnold the second in command of the entire army.

[00:47:41]It's this dream. Not Charles Lee, not Horatio Gates. He gives it to Arnold. He says, "I want to make you to make all this up to you. I want to offer you.

[00:47:50]You're going to be my second in command." And what I find just almost unbelievable is that you can imagine, now I'm not sure, but I would imagine that at that moment Arnold had gone too far to the other side, so he could no he could not accept that.

[00:48:09]No.

[00:48:09]>> But you can imagine that it must have just ripped him apart.

[00:48:12]>> Oh, absolutely. to be offered this >> the corrosive effects of his sin uh were eating away at him. I think coming, you know, it's like Washington saying, "Yeah, we need a reset here and here's this great gift. This is everything you want." I mean, you can ride in a horse now. You know, you're going to be in, you know, and um it it and he there must have been a part of him saying, "I'm too far now. I can't I can't pull out."

[00:48:43]>> Yeah. The money is I could just touch the money the British are going to give me. I'll get it any minute. All I need to do is get West Point. And then how bizarre it would have been to Washington when he refused this, you know, I'm giving you the job that you've deserved and wanted and here it is. Yeah.

[00:48:59]>> And he says, "No thanks. I want West Point." And >> Washington I mean, if ever there was a moment in Washington.

[00:49:05]>> Yeah. Yeah. That would have been it.

[00:49:07]Yeah. Yeah. Hey, but retrospect. Yeah.

[00:49:09]Right. No, I mean, and it's it's that that whole betrayal of Arnold's betrayal is just the scene, you know, if if if you're familiar at all with the the Hudson River Valley. I mean, you know, this is the land of the headless horsemen. Uh the val, you know, it's it's extraordinary that there is this kind of Gothic >> Yeah. It's a wild country.

[00:49:31]>> Wild country. Just, you know, almost within sight of of Manhattan, you know, there it all happens. And there's a ship called the Vulture.

[00:49:39]>> The Vulture >> that delivers Andre. And he and Arnold meet at night in what's known today as as you know um you know it's it's a grove of trees where um you know betrayal grow and it's you know all of this it's it's extraordinary landscape and >> it's chilling. It's really a chill.

[00:50:00]>> It's a chilling story.

[00:50:01]>> And then, you know, and then when Andre, you know, and Andre can't go back on the vulture because it gets fired upon and retreats. And so now he must make his way back down the other bank of of the Hudson through, you know, a forest worthy of of Dorothy approaching Oz, you know, just with, you know, scary stuff.

[00:50:24]And he gets taken and it all unravels.

[00:50:27]and you know and and this is where the American Revolution is is you know it's it's our our genesis. It's it is um you know it's biblical in all sorts of ways as far as you know the the the how it's set up the characters um it just it's it's so foundational that um you know it's it's the rever reverberations of it and particularly Arnold's betrayal is just I think such an important part of who we would become as a country because in a way we needed an Arnold um to provide you because we were rebelling against our mother country.

[00:51:08]>> Yeah.

[00:51:08]>> And then to have Arnold betray us >> turns the focus, >> you know, in a different way.

[00:51:15]>> I mean, it's so there's so much I guess I'm thinking too of how Arnold betrays Andre. I mean he he lures he takes advantage of course himself very ambitious and he can just smell a knighthood or something that if he pulls this off >> man he's he's the man and so he's tempted to do the three things that sir Henry Clinton tells him whatever you do on this dangerous mission don't do this this or this he does all three >> and Arnold takes advantage of him in a way I wonder if there was a jealousy uh on um uh Arnold's point, you know, given Andre's previous interactions with Peggy. I don't know because it's a little bizarre how uh preempt he Arnold says, "You're on your own here. Just go do this." And um it would unra in a way they kind of deserved each other. Um and uh and you know it's it's it is really this the the this the stuff of a foundational myth that is America. I I want to go to Roshambo, but before that um there's a line uh in one of your books um that I borrow or quote in my book where you talk about the difference between the death, the hanging of the spy major Andre uh and the hanging of the spy Nathan Hail to whom I devote a chapter um the great hero Nathan Hail whom Ken Burns devotes 12 seconds to in his 12-hour series.

[00:53:01]It's kind of strange, but Nathan Hail, such a great figure. And you compare yours is the only comparison um of of the two, but I thought it really interesting. Do you remember roughly what you said about a long time? I know.

[00:53:16]I know. I know.

[00:53:17]>> Yeah. Well, I mean I mean the I you know it's it's I mean for me Nathan Hail, you know, stands up and says, you know, I have one life to give to my country. And um Andre, you get a different point point of view. Andre, he's he's trying to weasle out of this the whole time. He's playing Washington's officers, particularly Hamilton, beautifully, saying, "Arnold betrayed me. I am the wronged one here >> where you know the evidence is very large that you know he this and you also if you look at Andre's backstory he was involved in some of the worst massacres of of unjustified massacres of American soldiers he had polioli I don't remember he was really well he and he he applauds it in one of his letters and and then there was a group of uh American soldiers that were um you know uh basically executed in a barn uh that he was dealt with anyway.

[00:54:24]So it I mean it's it's it's a yeah he behaves very differently from Nathan Hale. Well, that what you say uh in your book that I borrow with attribution uh is that Nathan Hail publicly cared about his country and said so that I want to die for my country whereas Andre was worried about his reputation. You know, please let it be noted that I go, you know, to the gallows with dignity or honor or something like that. So he was more concerned with his reputation than with the cause. U because of course what cause was there? Uh I think many of us think of oh the French were so great they helped us and it's like yes that there's a truth to that they did but they weren't uh particularly selfless or wonderful.

[00:55:16]Uh, I mean, you know, they come on board in 1778 and it's three long years before Yorktown and they weren't as cooperative no as George Washington and others had hoped they might be. So maybe you can say a word about that.

[00:55:33]>> I mean that that you know there is a tendency I think in our history to you know say what great buds Washington and Ro Shambo were and it all worked out great at Yorktown. But previous to that, the the French had their own agenda and it and uh it it was their country first and what they really wanted to do was bring down uh England a notch and what happened to America was okay, you know, it's but they were not passionately concerned about it. And um and when it came to, you know, the the their the year of Yorktown, it was looking really bad for the American cause. things. You It looked as if the American people had basically given up. I mean, um, you know, they weren't willing to they were hadn't been willing to pay the British taxes. They weren't willing to pay the taxes to pay for >> the spirit of 1776 was gone far in the rearview mirror by >> and the French were very well well aware of this and um they were fearful that America was just going to fall apart and so Roshambo is given orders that if it does that uh you you know uh Degrass's navy will arrive and instead of attacking you know the British as they would they're going to rescue you um from uh Newport and get you out of there and but don't tell any don't tell Washington or anything about that. And so um it put it in a difficult situation where Roshambo wasn't telling Washington what he was hearing and >> but who but pray tell who did tell Washington what Roshambo was saying in French?

[00:57:15]>> Yes. Well, there's Lafayette around and um and and he's also I mean, you know, the the whole thing it came down to this and I think few few of us realize how importance that our independence was won by the French Navy. I mean, the French were absolutely essential us winning this thing.

[00:57:35]>> And um and Washington knew this as soon as the the French were involved. He said, "The way we can win this is by gaining naval superiority." You know, the British have had it. They can move their soldiers up and down our coast, you know, in a blink of an eye, relatively speaking. And until we can do that, you know, until you know, something like that happens, until we can establish uh, you know, naval superiority locally and then come in with an army and win it there, we're not going to be able to win this. He sees that's the future. And it would take as you said three years to do that through a a variety of often random factors. And so Washington is just in this position of saying please you know when is your navy that is down in the uh Caribbean yeah uh defending the sugar islands because the British you know that's more money was to be made in the Caribbean at that time than you know one of those Caribbean islands was more worth more to uh Britain or France than all 13 colonies. I mean there was just so much money in sugar that um that that was the primary you know as soon as France came in that's where all the action was navally and so Washington was in this desperate you know please please you know get this navy up and help me >> and you know and then he's you know the um a few months before Yorktown he reads that degross this great you know the the the fleet has arrived but it's still in the Caribbean in and but Rosh Shambo hasn't told him any of it.

[00:59:14]>> Well, part of it one one of the things that that uh you help me to understand and I put it in my book is that this moment where you know the the the French are convinced that the Americans aren't going to win and we don't want to go down with them. And so at some point, I can't remember the provenence of the the treaty or the what they who's talking to whom, but there's this idea that, you know, let's call it a draw.

[00:59:49]Yep. The British, you get uh Georgia, uh the Carolas, Virginia, whatever. And we'll, you know, we'll it's like musical chairs. Let's just stop and whoever has frozen in place. Okay.

[01:00:01]>> And Washington knows that. Well, if that happens, the sacred cause is over because it's only a matter of time. I mean, if we don't win the whole thing, eventually the British will take it back and it's over.

[01:00:16]>> And Rosh Shambo's um translator tells Washington what Ro Shambo is saying >> because Ro Shambo's translator realizes that Washington is being wronged in this. What an amazingly brave thing for Roshambo's translator to tell Washington.

[01:00:39]>> No, it is. And yes, and and when Washington But you know, once again, Washington, you know, if Washington allowed his his impulses to take over, he could have blown up and blown this thing skyhigh. You know, you how dare you and all that. He doesn't. He's playing this long game and, you know, and he's he's a plan. He wants the fleet to attack New York and get it over in New York. Uh >> yeah, he's begging. This is one of these funny stories. I mean, he's begging Roshambo or, you know, not really begging, but he clearly wants the the fleet to he has this idea in his head that we need to take New York back.

[01:01:21]>> The loss of New York um was h his great downfall in the beginning. It would have been such, you know, poetic justice to take New York at the end. But he also had another point. Even if we, you don't attack New York, at least pick up our army, which was all in the New York area, and sail it down to the Chesapeake rather than us marching >> marching 500 miles, >> 500 miles in the heat of summer, you know. And by this point and uh in great tribute to Washington, you know, he had such trouble with his New Englanders the beginning, the backbone of the Continental Army are New Englanders. Um they are the ones that he has come to depend on, you know, and this is the extraordinary metamorphosis that has occurred over the last six years where, you know, Washington has built a professional army. Um, and they aren't the, you know, and these, many of them are immigrants. Yeah. Um, but he's put it all together. It's there, you know, and they haven't been paid. They've, you know, they, it's, they've been, you know, abused in all sorts of ways, but somehow they pull it off and and make that march to meet up with Degra, you know, Degrasse and try to spring a trap on Cornwallis at Yorktown.

[01:02:41]>> There's so much there. You write about it beautifully. the idea that Washington even you know he's hoping that uh the the French fleet will show up uh that they'll come to New York and and what's so fascinating is in that era uh because you can't communicate very easily um having to guess what's going to happen in a few weeks and where where do I make my move where do I move my arm and at some point I'm forgetting the details but at some point uh everybody realizes Okay. Boom. We're going south.

[01:03:14]We're going to to Virginia. Yeah.

[01:03:16]>> And so he has to do he does some bamboozling moves around New York to fool Clinton that, you know, uh where he's going and then suddenly he's he's gone.

[01:03:26]>> Well, and Yeah. And one of the Yeah. I mean, it's brilliant how they get, you know, how they bamboozle Clinton. But then one of the great scenes for my in my estimation of of that is so I think indicative of the tensions Washington's experiencing because you know as you said the commun there's no communicate you know there you know we we have cell phones we know you know everything there's he has no clue he doesn't even know if the French are have are on their way you know he's just they're just going for it based on a letter from Degrasse that's you know months old right >> and um and then uh they just gone. His army is going through the the city of Philadelphia. Uh he's on his way uh to to Elton, Maryland at the head of the Chesapeake to oversee the next phase when he gets a message.

[01:04:17]>> Yeah. The f the French are taking ships down, but his army is >> right. He's walking is walking >> and the message is Degrossass and his fleet has arrived in the Chesapeake.

[01:04:28]It's all coming together. Washington turns his horse around. He knows that Roshambo and his staff are on a boat doing a harbor tour of the Delaware and are about to arrive in Chester, Pennsylvania. He rides to the dock in Chester. There's now a gambling casino there, but um rides to the dock >> and and uh and Roshambo, one of his officers, sees someone on the dock and they're jumping up and down and waving their arms.

[01:04:58]>> Yeah. A tall guy. tall guy >> jumping up and down and he's got this thing and they say, "Who could that be?

[01:05:05]Who? I don't know. Could it be?" No, it couldn't be Washington. He'd never It's George Washington. He is so excited. Um, you know, he's jumping up and down. They come, Degrasse comes over. Now, Washington was not a hugger, but what he gave Degross a hug and said, "The fleet has arrived." And um and and then it becomes a true race. Now we have to spring the track trap before.

[01:05:32]>> But you never see Washington show his emotions. I mean, I shouldn't say never, but almost never.

[01:05:37]>> He cannot contain his joy when he realizes they're on their way.

[01:05:42]>> This is close to Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, this this is this is him. And then I mean, just imagine it too. The war has gone on for six years. He hasn't been home in six years. He has not been home.

[01:05:55]instead of going home like most of his officers, he stays in his winter quarters and Mark Martha visits him. He has he's been renovating Mount Vernon, >> you know, over those six years in abstencia and he hasn't seen, you know, all the Mount Vernon we know today. It's it's but it's been happening. Can you imagine? He arrives, you know.

[01:06:21]>> Well, lucky for him, Yorktown, uh, Mount Vernon is on the way to Yorktown.

[01:06:26]>> Yeah. He didn't go out of his way. It's right on the way. He pulls in and, you know, sees this place.

[01:06:32]>> And then Ro Shambo arrives. They spread out the maps on the kitchen on the dining room table. Can you imagine the, you know, the emotions that that must of have just been roing through him? And then on they go.

[01:06:47]>> Yeah. And he rides like a zillion miles a day to get from wherever he is down to Mount Vernon. Something crazy.

[01:06:53]>> Way ahead. He gets ahead so he can have some time by himself. Yeah. And >> uh Okay. So, well, this brings us to Yorktown. Um it is really funny that we know how it ends, but uh I I guess well to be fair already in Philadelphia people are celebrating. I mean before everything you've just described because they kind of have a sense that uh it's coming together >> but we still don't know that it comes together until it comes together. Um but Washington he he betrays his emotions. I guess he writes a letter to Lafayette who's already down at York Yorktown something like, you know, I sort of a funny line about, you know, keeping your eye on on uh >> um >> Cornwallis.

[01:07:44]>> Cornwallis to that he doesn't get too much food or something. But the point is that he feels the freedom to joke. Yeah.

[01:07:51]>> In a letter, which tells you that he feels confident, I guess.

[01:07:55]>> Yeah. I mean, six six years building towards this and you know, but it's still in the balance because just as he's approaching Yorktown, he gets another letter saying a British fleet has appeared outside the entrance to the Chesapeake. Um, Degrass's fleet has sailed out to meet them. We don't know what happened. Now, up until this time when the British and French met uh at sea, the British almost always won.

[01:08:27]>> Um if the British had defeated Degrasse here, they would have sailed into the Chesapeake uh picked up uh Cornwallis's army and sailed off and we would have you know it the war would not have ended >> and on and on it would go. Uh yeah, but the French won and um in one of the you know few uh naval victories uh that they had in that thing and we owe the fact that victory depended on that and I think it's an overlooked fact of of uh the progress of of this revolution.

[01:09:06]>> Well, we always act like everything ends uh at Yorktown, which in some ways it does, but in some ways it doesn't. I mean, it's funny to think that Washington has to go to uh Newberg and hang around and deal with all that nonsense forever.

[01:09:22]>> Um, it it it's like he he never got a chance to rest. Really?

[01:09:27]>> No. You know, throughout these three books, I kept wanting him to have that moment, you know, saying yes, you know, yes. But always it was denied him. After the victory at Yorktown, he learns that his stepson Jackie has contracted camp fever. He dies. So he and Martha are in mourning, you know, after after that he, you know, he he goes he's in Newberg with his officers and his good old pal Horatio Gates is once again attempting a coup, saying, "Hey, we haven't been paid. Let's march on Congress. Demand at gunpoint that they they pay us." this would have been the military coup that would have destroyed everything. He talks them out of it and um uh and he you know and he does it with a piece of theater. Um you know these people are really angry. Uh one of the only officers that's still in his camp is Henry Knox who's there to watch all this. Um and by this point you know he's he's now in his 50s. you know, he can't he can't, you know, he's he can't read letters the way you see. He's see he's had a pair of gl reading glasses made and uh but no one's seen him with them.

[01:10:41]And he, you know, he's trying he's delivering the speech. The officers are still angry.

[01:10:46]>> And then he says, "But wait, uh here's a letter from uh one of the u the congressmen that that is sympathetic.

[01:10:53]Let me read it." And so he he starts to look, but he can't read. He says, "Uh, I have not only gone gray for my country, I apparently have also gone blind." And he puts on those glasses and the sign of frailty uh from someone who has been so strong uh for these six years breaks down all of those officers and they weep and they real and Washington wins it.

[01:11:19]That's his his sense of theater wins the day there. And I think in many ways that might be one of his greatest victories because and this is also where I to get back to Arnold just think if Arnold >> oh >> had was still an officer he was just the kind of guy who could have said yeah let's march on those those bastards in Philadelphia let's >> well with a sense uh of of I mean >> righteous >> they weren't wrong.

[01:11:51]>> No they weren't wrong. But that's but what's that's what's so fascinating to me about the character of Washington is that >> anybody else could have easily sided with Arnold in his uh sense of grievance. Anybody else could have sided with Horatio Gates and the officers who hadn't been paid. It made perfect sense unless you were that magnificent character >> like a Washington who's so rare in the world >> so rare >> to make the right decision when everyone else would make that wrong decision and feel justified in making it.

[01:12:24]>> Yeah. And it's so risky. I mean just think if he thought whoa if these guys do, you know, win and it goes and you know, you know, it could it would have been chaos. It would have been the coup that would have destroyed everything.

[01:12:37]But he prevailed and once again he was indispensable. I guess that that's what makes me think and we'll have to end because of time but Washington's character part of it is his faith um in several senses of the word faith in what is right prevailing that if I do the right thing somehow we will prevail. Um and you see that over and over he had that sense of destiny or that that he he had faith somehow that if I do the right thing things will work out. I mean there are many examples of that and he comments on it but um you you see it over and over again that he seems convinced that that's his job is to do the right thing >> and does and he does and you know it's it's one of those you know he he saw a path and he did everything he could to make that happen. You know he was the agency that made it happen. and and so on on one side you say well boy you know he knew you know he placed his bets in the right direction but he was the one making it happen. He wasn't it wasn't a bet for him. It was what he was on this earth to do. And um it's it's you know there's it's ve there very few people in life and very few situations in life where uh you see this kind of tenacity, patience, humility and strength of character allowed to prevail.

[01:14:18]It's it's absolutely extraordinary. I want to thank you for writing about him and these things uh not just at great length but uh in a way that really is delightfully readable and I want to thank you. Please join me in thanking uh Nathaniel Philick for being my guest today. Thank you so much. Yeah, thank you.

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