Jackie, Rickey, & the Death of the Black Baseball Player ft. Howard Bryant

Added: 2026-05-05

[00:00:00]Welcome back to All the Smoke Baseball.

[00:00:02]Today we have a very special guest. Uh someone that is actually a friend of mine and we're and we're doing some cool work together behind the scenes that you guys will know about soon. But welcome to the show, Howard Bryant. What's up, man? How are you?

[00:00:15]>> Appreciate your time.

[00:00:18]>> Bestselling author. You've done a lot of different things um documentaries. Um but let's start with baseball. You used to be behind the scenes in that writing.

[00:00:29]Um, baseball season's in full swing. Um, Jackie Robinson day is right around the corner. When I say Jackie Robinson, what's the first thing that comes to mind for you?

[00:00:39]>> No, the first thing that comes to mind is, I mean, obviously legend. Um, but really, I think the thing that gets me most about Jackie is just the timelessness of it that he's he's so present and he played well really two things hit me. One is that he retired in 1956 after the 56 season.

[00:00:57]>> It's crazy. But the other is that Rachel, his widow, is still alive.

[00:01:01]She'll be 104 in July.

[00:01:03]>> And um just that spirit of Robinson is still out there. All the players are wearing uh 42 on on April 15th, which was the day Jackie um integrated the big leagues, April 15th, 1947. And it's just I think the thing that hits me is we always talk about baseball and where you know where African-American players are, where everybody's at in the sport right now, just the fact that you can still he's not old dusty history. He's still present. A lot of stuff you can tie to him to this day.

[00:01:35]>> Mhm.

[00:01:35]>> Speaking of the black player, there's been a heavy decline in the game and we've asked some greats like Bonds and Sheffield, the Mookie Betts and more about why they feel that is from your point of view. Why is there such a lack of black baseball talent in the major leagues?

[00:01:51]>> Well, it's by design. Um, I think that most importantly, we spend I think the thing that has bothered me the most whenever we have these conversations, the default has been, well, black players, you know, black kids just don't want to play. They'd rather play basketball. They'd rather play football.

[00:02:07]And it's nonsense. It's money. It's 100% it's money. It's it's not just priced out. It's historically baseball the black player became 10 20% 25% in the game because starting with the Negro League started with starting with Jackie um black players were the cheapest commodity you could get. You know you know Jackie signed for $5,000, Willie May signed for $5,000.

[00:02:34]Hank Aaron signed for $6,000.

[00:02:36]And so for a time those players were the cheapest commodity. you could get great players at a low price. Baseball as a sport, baseball is a white suburban game reinforced by foreign labor. That's the sport. It's not an American game per se.

[00:02:52]It's a white suburban American game, but 35% of the game is Latino. And so when you look for players, where do you find them? Where does baseball look for players? They've got they've got facilities in the Dominican. All the teams >> Yeah. havemies down there, >> right? And then the American players, where do they get those players?

[00:03:13]College. College is 1% black. So the black players in college are scholarship players. Baseball's a non-revenue sport.

[00:03:23]So it's by design that if you're getting your players from college, they're going to be white. And if you're getting the rest of your talent from the Dominican or from Venezuela or from Mexico or Cuba, they're going to be Latino. So, you're not developing black players the way you used to.

[00:03:41]>> No pipeline for >> no pipeline. And you know, I remember talking to Dusty Dusty Baker about this and when you really start looking at how the the numbers shifted. They replaced essentially black players with the Latino players. It's all money. If you put a ball in front of a kid, they're going to play with it, >> right? I mean, that's always been my thing. If you look at the numbers, Latino players are not part of the draft.

[00:04:08]So, a black American kid who's a first round pick, you got to pay him first round American dollars, you can buy a hundred Dominican kids, 200 for the price of one American.

[00:04:22]>> Wow.

[00:04:23]>> That's the difference, you know. And so whenever I hear, oh, well, just we just don't want to play the game, everybody knows that the relationship between black Americans and baseball is the deepest of all the sports and it goes back the longest.

[00:04:38]>> For our our our viewers and our fans, kind of tell them your background um in particularly the the baseball space.

[00:04:45]>> Baseball. Well, I started um um I started my career at the Oakland Tribune back in in 1991.

[00:04:52]And um it's funny because when I got there I was covering preps like everybody else. And so back then Jay Kidd um was at St. Joe's and he was a baseball player >> and he was one of the guys that people we knew he was going everyone thought he could play in the NBA when he was coming out of high school.

[00:05:08]>> But there was also this piece of him that maybe he was going to play baseball too cuz he was a great player.

[00:05:12]>> Um my first year on the beat was 1998 with the Oakland A's. I was at working at the San Jose Mercury News and then I started covering the Yankees and then the Red Sox and I've been doing baseball for a long time. Wrote my first book in 2002 about the history of integration and the Red Sox shutout. Wrote another book about steroids in baseball.

[00:05:31]>> Two biographies, one on uh Hank Aaron called The Last Hero 2006 and then another in 2022 on Ricky Henderson. I got a quick story about Ricky and it's funny because we just sat down with CM Punk and he was telling me how this newer generation of wrestlers are more outspoken and and and kind of appreciative of greats and they come up to him and talk and and they take pictures and all this kind of thing. And Ricky Henderson was my favorite baseball player. And I got a chance to meet him finally at Reggie Jackson had a softball game at the Coliseum, which was the last baseball. It was a softball game at the Coliseum, and Ricky Henderson was there >> and I was to the I just I come from the old school, so we don't really ask for pictures and and that kind of thing, but I was just like as a kid 24 was everything. lead off batter for the aid all I just >> and baseball and baseball was leaving >> Ricky died like a month >> after that and it broke my heart that I didn't sit but it when I tell you like there was so many big conco Larusa was there there's so many guys there but in the locker room like Ricky was in his corner just telling stories and he had everyone >> lined up around him just listening and I was kind of it was Ricky's locker and then it was the the the bathroom to where the showers and [ __ ] were and then I was right there. So I wasn't in the campfire standing up but I was still kind of ear hustling over here and he was just telling some of the dopest stories and people were just such an awe and I was just like damn what am I when I was really sitting there like when am I going to go ask him what am I going to go ask go ask him stop being a [ __ ] go ask for it and I just didn't do it and then he passes one month later. Um you wrote a book on him tell me about >> just Ricky I I hear a bunch of amazing stories. Harold Reynolds tells a story about how he won the stolen base, the the bass crown and Ricky hit him up and whatever his number was at the time.

[00:07:28]He's like Ricky gets that before Allstar breaking.

[00:07:30]>> Exactly. It's true story.

[00:07:31]>> Yeah.

[00:07:32]>> The thing about Ricky, well, one of the reasons why I wanted to do Ricky was because one there you're dealing with just larger than life character, right?

[00:07:40]I mean, everybody wants to be Ricky. And and I think about it, I thought about the postfree agency athlete. That was really where Ricky started to hit me where it was like everybody in your pro in your profession spent a lot of years apologizing for your money like when the money got really big. Um especially baseball players because there was so much labor strife. Ricky was really the first athlete in the modern era, the TV era. It's not newspaper anymore. Now it's TV. And now that money is real free agency money. I remember talking to Dusty Baker about it when Dusty and Hank Aaron were teammates. Um, in ' 74 when Henry broke the record, he was the highest paid player in the game at 240. 240,000 in April of uh 74. When Dusty hits free agency in 78, couple years later, Dusty's making 595.

[00:08:35]Ricky's the first guy who's not afraid to say, "Pay me. I'm not going to apologize. I'm I'm, you know, don't compare me to the electrician. Compare me to the guys in a head of me making my money." And so I really thought he was like this this great character who was who was indicative of this new era of the thing that lovehate relationship that the fans have with the players.

[00:08:54]They love you for for what you give them, but they also hate you for all the money that you make and and and your talent.

[00:09:00]>> And also the stories about Ricky, were they true? Were they not true? All the third person stuff and everything else.

[00:09:05]And also he was to me he was one of those guys when he was playing >> people couldn't stand him. Ooh.

[00:09:14]>> And then that next generation they started to love him. And then the next generation they loved him even more. And so it was really this sort of this combination of Satchel Page and and and Yogi Barra are the the first person third person stories. Are they are they really true? And then how when he was playing there were people who didn't think he was a Hall of Famer when he was playing.

[00:09:33]>> Wow.

[00:09:33]>> Because they couldn't stand his brashness. They couldn't stand his blackness. They couldn't stand the fact that Ricky was so unafraid >> to to be proud of his ability.

[00:09:46]>> And also, you talk about load management, the way we talk about it today. The way they used to call Ricky a malinger and Ricky was shaking it. Ricky didn't want to play. Ricky knew his body.

[00:09:56]>> Ricky knew his body and Ricky would tell you, you know, he and Tony Larusa used to go at it and Ricky would say, you know, you know, you know, I I can know if I can go today. And Ricky was like, "Well, I mean, Tony would say, "Yeah, but 75% of you is better than 100% of the other guys I got."

[00:10:12]>> And Tony had to admit that he was wrong about Ricky. And Tony was the one who said it in 1989. Ricky's not a great player. And the reason why he said Ricky wasn't a great player was because great players play every single day. But when you go back and look at the record, nobody's breaking his record.

[00:10:31]>> Hell no. You know, I mean, it's just it's I just thought I just thought it was fascinating how time shifts stuff.

[00:10:37]And now you add the analytics into it.

[00:10:39]>> He's better now than you thought he was when he was playing.

[00:10:41]>> Interesting. And he also brought that flare. I mean, I mean, he had the first neon gloves and he the the style in which he used to steal the bases, how he'd pop his collar, hitting a home run coming out of the box. like he was doing a lot of different [ __ ] that that wasn't necessarily now it's I mean well we saw it a lot in the WBC which I loved just the energy of the game but like popping your collar out the home run box back when he was doing it wasn't >> that's why they hated him because once again baseball is all so steeped in tradition >> baseball doesn't know >> how to um adapt like one of the biggest differences especially in basketball and we were talking about this before basketball adjusts to the people who play it.

[00:11:24]>> You watch basketball, you all play music during basketball. Like during the game, someone's dual court, you can hear music, right?

[00:11:29]>> And so basketball adapts, you know, in the 20s and the 30s, it was a Jewish game, Jewish urban game.

[00:11:36]>> In the 50s and becomes a more midwestern white game pretty much since the 19 early 70s and absolutely after the merger in 76. It's a black urban game.

[00:11:46]It's a black game, right? It's a black game culturally. It's a black game demographically. And basketball adapts to that, >> right? Baseball still plays. Baseball style is still Jim Crow segregation 1900's game. They still play by those same rules, right? They don't play like that in Japan. They have fun in the Dominican as we saw during the World Baseball Classic. They're have But American baseball, you hit a home run, I hit you in the back, right? I mean, they still have all those old school rules.

[00:12:16]You hit a home run, I'm not supposed to celebrate. I'm not supposed to be happy.

[00:12:19]I'm not supposed to, you know, look at all the grief they gave Ken Griffy Jr.

[00:12:23]>> for having a hat on backwards hitting batting, you know, during batting practice. And so Ricky style >> is something that they would look at and go, but then the next generation loved him.

[00:12:34]>> And that is the thing that baseball has all that difficulty adapting to the new game, adapting to TV. You're supposed to have style.

[00:12:43]>> One quick thing about Ricky, everyone knows that Ricky snap catch, right?

[00:12:46]Ricky catch the ball snapping. The first Ricky snap catch was the final out of a no hitter.

[00:12:52]>> Was it really?

[00:12:54]>> 1983. And and he would talk about how it was an optical illusion. Like Ricky, what if you dropped that ball?

[00:12:59]>> He was like, that would have been my ass.

[00:13:02]>> But just shows you how much confidence he had that he was going to introduce the legendary snap catch in the Mike Warren 1983 no hitter. Carlton Fist poply. Look it up. It's on YouTube. I remember a friend of mine, I'm not gonna embarrass him, tried to snap catch in high school and the [ __ ] didn't work and it broke his nose.

[00:13:19]Hit >> himself in the face >> baseball practice. Yeah, you know who you are. That [ __ ] was funny.

[00:13:25]>> Um, new book, King of Pawns, Jackie Robinson and Paul Roersonson.

[00:13:30]>> We got it right here. Um, explain to the audience what this book is about. book is all about um two gigantic black figures that one of them people don't don't even really remember.

[00:13:42]Paul Robson's one of the greatest Americans this country's ever produced.

[00:13:46]He was the one of the greatest football college football players of all time. He was a lawyer. He was an concert singer.

[00:13:53]He's an opera singer. He was an actor.

[00:13:55]Um he played in this little startup called the National Football League. and um because of his political views, because he was leftwing, because he was a socialist, um because he was he was not willing to uh disavow his friends in the Communist Party. Um this country went after him, went after his career, went after his, you know, his money, took his passport away, wouldn't let him travel. And in 1949, the uh the Brooklyn Dodgers Brooklyn Yeah. Brooklyn Dodgers president uh Branch Ricky had essentially uh encouraged or uh coerced Jackie Robinson to testify against him in front of the House and American Activities Committee.

[00:14:36]And um at the time Jackie didn't want to do it, but there was a real conversation about whether African-Americans were loyal to this country. And here's Jackie felt he had a responsibility. Reminds me a lot of what's happening today. There were a lot of people who were saying um that black people need to sit this one out. We didn't elect Donald Trump. we didn't elect him once or twice and so we need to sit this one out. Why? This isn't our fight. This is your fight.

[00:14:59]>> And there were a lot of people at that time in 1949 who said to Jackie, "Why would you testify against another black man as great as Robson, why would you testify in service of this committee that doesn't want you to have equal rights and wouldn't shake your hand?"

[00:15:14]And Jackie's response was was because this country is mine too. And it's important to me that if people are questioning my loyalty or questioning our loyalty that maybe the very people who support civil rights are going to abandon us and he felt a responsibility.

[00:15:30]So in a lot of ways he was caught in between these two poles. And that's really what the book is about. It's about this idea of tunis about you know is it possible to be patriotic and also fight segregation at the same time? and how these two guys both ended up um fairly disillusioned at the end of their lives.

[00:15:49]>> Did they get a chance to meet talk >> and that's what's wild. You got these two guys at that fame level. Both of them in Harlem as well. Never met >> really.

[00:15:57]>> They had never met each other, but these political forces put them in the same uh put them in the same and pitted themselves against each other. And that was one of the things that also reminds me as we know today um you know Jackie being in that position that he didn't really want to be in. But as I'm, you know, as I've said, you know, before, the from a more contemporary standpoint today, you know, the black person who was willing to publicly criticize other black people, they'll have a job for life.

[00:16:26]>> And so, in a lot of ways, Jackie was used to uh to testify against against Robson.

[00:16:31]>> What do you think around the momentum with the with the baseball the last few years? I think the WBC was a big success. Uh, obviously the pitch clock, the attendance ratings are up. Um, I feel like there's a new energy around baseball and I'm not just saying that cuz we're covering it now, but I kind of I really feel that there's kind of a different >> outtake with a bre almost a breath of fresh air.

[00:16:53]>> Yeah. And I'm really glad that y'all are doing baseball because I think you can you can help and and and bring a different energy to baseball, especially as a former NBA player because the one thing that the NBA has is partnership.

[00:17:05]Mhm.

[00:17:05]>> Um, baseball hates each other and they've been hating each other for a really long time. And baseball is baseball has a moment going right now.

[00:17:12]Baseball baseball is a thing. I mean, that World Series is one of the greatest World Series I've ever seen.

[00:17:16]>> Yes.

[00:17:17]>> Right. You've got a World Superstar with Otani. Um, you've got, you know, Toronto is back. You know, you've got an international team that's back in the World Series for the first time in 30 plus years. And what are you gonna do right now? You're gonna shut the game down next year over Labor. Now you've got a there's a real >> possibility more than 5050 that baseball is gonna, you know, cancel the entire season unless they get a salary cap unless they get some of the relief that they want, which would be a colossal colossal mistake. And I got to tell you, I was wrong about the WBC. I didn't like it. I didn't like it. I thought it was sort of gimmicky when they first started it, you know, 20 years ago. And part of the reason was is that it's really, really difficult to ask athletes to go max effort game mode that early in the season. You're going to get guys hurt.

[00:18:02]timing is crazy. Yeah.

[00:18:03]>> But boy, it was fun this year. And it was fun and it was and the Americans were the ones who didn't quite know how to have fun with it.

[00:18:10]>> And so baseball has a moment and you're really really hoping don't blow this moment. You got a shot right now to to to be something that you haven't been in a really long time. You're going to let Labour mess it up.

[00:18:23]>> And their deal is up at after 27.

[00:18:26]>> Yeah.

[00:18:27]>> Hopefully they >> No, it's 26 after this season.

[00:18:30]>> After this season.

[00:18:32]Oh man.

[00:18:33]>> And so we're going to find out about negotiation and about whether or not they understand the moment. And and what's really fascinating about all of this is is that baseball has spent so much time fighting.

[00:18:48]Um and I get it from the owner standpoint. In some ways, the owners are upset that because baseball doesn't have a salary cap, the other sports the um their valuations are going up. I mean, the Lakers went for 10 billion.

[00:19:02]Baseball franchises are not growing at the same clip. They're not growing at the same rate. And the reason why they're not is because they don't have the same cost controls that the other sports have. You know, if you buy a team, you know what the costs are going to be. Not with baseball. You're going to give Juan Sto 765 million.

[00:19:18]>> But on the other hand, >> parody does not come from salary caps.

[00:19:24]>> I mean, the fans, the players are the game. And it's really interesting. It's going to be interesting to see what they do. It's going to be interesting to see how it's covered because everyone is talking about the players. Well, you have to get in line. Basketball has a salary cap. Football has a salary cap.

[00:19:38]Hockey has a salary cap. But people also don't look at it the other way, which is give these players some credit for standing together in labor solidarity that they understand that they do make the game and that the superstars aren't going to fold the way the NFL did back in ' 87.

[00:19:53]>> That these guys have an idea of their worth. You don't go to the games to watch the owners. And right now, baseball is in a moment and let's hope they don't blow it. Whether you're managing a busy morning, headed to the gym, or fueling up before work, you need a coffee that keeps up with your hustle.

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[00:21:10]The Yankees did it. The Dodgers are doing it. Um, when they just open up these blank checkbooks and go out there and get the Is this bad? I mean, obviously, this is a reason why they're going to go into negotiations. Is this bad for baseball?

[00:21:23]>> Well, I mean, here's how I look at it.

[00:21:26]And basketball's in a way different position than than baseball because basketball is a best player win sport.

[00:21:31]You got to get one of them. You got to get one of the great players in order to, you know, you can go from 29 wins to 61 wins if David Robinson's on your team, right? That can happen.

[00:21:40]>> But the thing that hits me is how hard are you trying to win if you're the Pittsburgh Pirates? Are you actually trying to win? Are you telling me that you're doing the very best you can do?

[00:21:53]Part of the narrative that bothers me is I'm not saying that the that the the the finances are out of control. I mean, if you're the Minnesota Twins, you're not going to be able to get certain guys.

[00:22:03]And it is true that the Dodgers are off the charts in terms of payroll. However, how much money do you actually need to win? You don't need the Dodgers payroll to win games. The Brewers last year, they beat the Dodgers during the regular season, lost to them during the playoffs. The Dodgers were backto back nights away from losing. They were one play away from losing. You don't have to match them salary for salary, dollar for dollar. And I feel like, yeah, do you need some sort of cost control?

[00:22:31]>> You probably do at some level, but do you actually need a salary cap for baseball to be good? No. And the reason why I say that is because go back and look at all the teams who have won over the past 20 years. more baseball teams, if you go back to the last to the Yankee dynasty back in 2000, the last time they had won back-to-back championships, >> more teams in baseball have won the World Series than any other sport.

[00:22:53]>> So, what does that actually really tell you? I think what's really happening is is that people there's an anti- labor feeling in this country. There's an anti-player movement in this country.

[00:23:04]It's always been there. And they just want baseball players to get in line and the players won't do it.

[00:23:11]Good. The Athletic wrote a story about baseball has overtaken basketball as the second most popular sport in America.

[00:23:18]>> Thoughts?

[00:23:19]>> Based on what? I mean, I don't know.

[00:23:22]Based on like what's the what's what's what's the measure?

[00:23:25]>> Yeah.

[00:23:26]>> I know. We all know that people love to argue and complain about basketball.

[00:23:30]>> We know that no matter what, if the if the if the sport is fun, people say, "Oh, well, the ratings are down, right?"

[00:23:35]They always find a way to complain about basketball. just as well as baseball.

[00:23:39]People always find a way to complain about baseball. So, I I don't >> Hard to tell.

[00:23:43]>> Hard to tell.

[00:23:44]>> I think especially too because you got to take in consideration how big basketball is on social media and how a lot of people consume instead of like my kids love basketball, but they'll rarely watch a game, but they'll catch the highlights on social media.

[00:23:58]>> So, you were born in 1980. Y >> right. So, I I got you by a few years.

[00:24:04]So when I was a kid, Reggie Jackson was our guy. Even though I'm a Bostononian ba baseball had national stars.

[00:24:14]>> Mhm.

[00:24:14]>> There's a na, you know, you wherever you went, somebody knew when they saw Pete Rose or when they saw Reggie, you know, you knew who those guys were.

[00:24:22]>> The last time baseball really had a national guy where no matter where you were, if you were in Iowa, LA, Miami, everybody knew, probably Ken Griffy Jr.

[00:24:31]>> Ken Griffy.

[00:24:31]>> Probably Ken Griffy Jr., right? right around 93 94 when he was really really cranking. Baseball made a conscious decision to be a regional sport. And that's a that's a decision that that that they made. Are you really going to tell me that you don't believe that a baseball player can capture the country the way they used to? The argument in baseball is is that is that no. What we're a regional sport, so our guys have very very high Q ratings in our individual cities, but we don't have a LeBron. We don't have a Kobe. don't have an a Tom Brady, but I don't really think that's the case. I think you've got you've got you've got Showy Otani. Are you really going to tell me that you cannot >> Yeah.

[00:25:10]>> have him be a a national superstar?

[00:25:12]>> So, you feel it's it's the effort behind him or or behind these players pushing it? Because I remember in my teenage years, I mean, there was a ton of guys you just met. My teenage years are in the, you know, mid '9s to late 90s and there was Griffy, Maguire, Bond, so you name them. And these were all recognizable faces no matter where you were >> household >> in the country.

[00:25:32]>> No, B baseball decided it was regional.

[00:25:34]>> Um, and obviously you've got some language barrier stuff with some, you know, Otani not speaking English.

[00:25:39]Remember Sammy Sosa when they were doing the Pepsi commercials back in the '90s?

[00:25:42]He would just smile. He would just smile at the camera. So, you do have to have some sort of star power. You got to decide that you want to be a superstar.

[00:25:50]>> But I've just always rejected the idea that because it's baseball, >> Yeah. you can't be national because we remember >> absolutely >> that that was that that was not the case.

[00:26:00]>> The steroid era, you wrote a whole book on the beginning of it.

[00:26:05]>> I think steroids save baseball at a certain point.

[00:26:10]>> Am I am I am I crazy to think that? Like I said, I mean these again that's the best time I remember my teenage years.

[00:26:16]I'm I'm reminiscing again. Forgive me y'all. But this was the best time. I mean obviously I'm a football baseball player. Football and basketball are my two favorite sports. But I couldn't wait to get home to watch >> that race. You know, it's true. And it, you know, Can you make the argument that the steroid era saved the game? 100%.

[00:26:32]>> And the MLB played into it. I mean, chicks dig the long ball. There was commercials and all kinds of other [ __ ] that went along with it.

[00:26:38]>> They did. They did. And as a Hall of Fame voter, they left it to us. And this is one of the reasons why I stopped voting for the Hall of Fame >> was because it was like, "Wait a minute.

[00:26:47]You didn't give us any rules on this.

[00:26:49]You gave us rules on Pete Rose. We couldn't vote for him. You gave us rules on Joe Jackson. We couldn't he's not on the ballot. We couldn't vote for him.

[00:26:55]Right. But you profited off his steroids.

[00:26:59]Your managers are in the Hall of Fame who managed these guys. Tony Larus is in the Hall of Fame. He had he had Maguire.

[00:27:04]He had Conco, you know, he had, you know, Ruben Sierra, all the others guys who were accused of using steroids, right? Joe Tori is in the Hall of Fame and Roger Clemens isn't in the Hall of Fame. Alex Rodriguez isn't in the Hall of Fame. So, you're going to punt and leave that to me? You're going to make me the management stoogge for not voting for these guys when you you put all your guys in. Bud Celic has a statue in front of Miller Park in Milwaukee. So you you you erect a statue to yourself, but you leave it to us to keep these guys out.

[00:27:34]So I didn't think that was very fair.

[00:27:36]When you say leave it to us, is it kind of like a a consensus or what's understood does need to be explained? Like everyone knows not to vote for the I mean cuz Barry Bond >> No. Because what I used to do with my Hall of Fame boat was I was I would always call the Hall of Famers.

[00:27:51]>> I would call guys. I would call Joe Morgan. I would call Dennis Eckersley. I would call a lot of guys and say, "What do you think?" Because once again, like we covered the game, >> right? But we see the game differently than the way you see the game, >> and so what I was always trying to do with my with my ballot was to try to make it a panorama, try to get everybody, here's what his peers thought about him. Here's what I saw. Here's here are all the different layers and ways. Here the way here's the way the fans saw it. And I would ask all those questions. The Hall of Famers didn't want us to vote for the steroid guys either.

[00:28:20]>> Really, >> in fact, there had always been a movement that if Bonds and some of those guys got in, we're not coming as a protest.

[00:28:27]>> Get out of here. You know, try to blame the writers all the time.

[00:28:31]>> And it's a massive thing.

[00:28:34]>> I was just going to ask that. I was going to say what that cuz I mean I feel like as former players like whether you get the recognition or not from the media or the fans or whatever I think you really hang your hat on what your peers think about you.

[00:28:47]>> Those old school those guys were old school and those old school guys are like no drugs even though they were using drugs they were using greens and they were using you know weed and whatever else they were using.

[00:28:56]>> And some of those guys would say hey would I use steroids if I had the chance? I don't know but they were very very clear you cheated. And so my attitude has always been um if Bonds gets into the Hall of Fame, he earned it. If he doesn't get into the Hall of Fame, he earned it. Ditto for A-Rod, you know, did Ditto for all those guys. You can't look at them and say there's no reason why you're not in, right? We all know what why they're not in. It's not like the the writers or the the uh now the veterans committees now that they don't, you know, they're making a decision. They're making a judgment and they're making a call. But here, Matt, here's the other thing. I think I've softened on this because I look at it this way.

[00:29:38]There is the death penalty or there's parole. That's kind kind of how I see it.

[00:29:45]>> You know, there's life without parole or life with parole or whatever, right? And so from a parole standpoint, if we're going to do it from a legal, you know, use the legal jargon, if you put Barry Bonds in the Hall of Fame right now, 20 years after he retired, and he's the greatest baseball player I've ever seen, right? We all know that he paid the price for that. We all know it's not like, oh man, we we don't know why Barry didn't get in, you know, in 2027. So to me it sort of feels like even if you do put these guys in now, they've all paid a pretty haven't they paid a pretty good price.

[00:30:22]>> I mean my question not to cut you off is I mean you look at >> some of these guys that >> you know and my thing is was it was it against the there was no rules on it at the time. Correct.

[00:30:35]>> Against the law but it wasn't a rule in MLB. Right.

[00:30:38]>> It wasn't a rule in MLB at the time.

[00:30:39]However, my counter to that had always been if there was no rule and we were all acting ignorantly because there was no rule, >> why'd you hide it? Who'd you lie for?

[00:30:51]>> I mean, everybody knew you're not supposed to be doing it. We all knew what was everybody knew what was happening.

[00:30:55]>> So, then my second question to that is you look at Mark McGuire's rookie year where he hits 40 plus home runs and Barry Bonds had what, two or three MVPs before he even was accused of.

[00:31:04]>> So, you know, these guys can play the game at the highest level. I don't believe that it's part of the question.

[00:31:10]>> I don't think anybody is looking at Barry Bonds and go, I wonder if he was talented enough to be a that's not the question. The the conversation is the drugs. We're talking about drugs. And I remember >> when uh when I did Juice in the game in in '05 and I was on 60 Minutes with Mike Wallace and had to run down to spring training the next day, Derek Jeter comes by and hits me in the leg with the bat and he goes, "Hey, 60 minutes. we're not all doing this, you know.

[00:31:38]>> So, they all had the same conversations and and I felt and and I do feel like when people say, "Oh, you can't have a Hall of Fame without Barry Bonds." Yeah.

[00:31:48]I mean, there's this is the price. When people talk about legacy, this is the price. Everybody lost. I mean, the players got to keep their money, you know, sure there's that, but really this whole generation of players, Maguire, Pomero, >> A-Rod, Sosa, >> Clemens, >> Roger. Exactly. I mean, you know, all of them and you're looking at this and you're going, >> was it worth it? I remember talking to Jason Giani about this and I and I covered G and he's one of my all-time favorites. And if you ever have a great guy, >> oh, you know, he, as I always say, >> there are guys who make the job easy, guys who make the job hard. Jason made the job very, very, very easy. I'm sure you had it on your side as a player.

[00:32:31]There are writers who walked in the room who made the [ __ ] easy, and there were guys who were like, "Come on now. I want to deal with you."

[00:32:37]>> And I remembered, and Jason was the only guy, and I remember this like it was yesterday. We were sitting there at Legends at Stein Burnerfield when Jason had finally got cornered in the subpoena and the Balco grand jury and it was all and looked in the camera and somebody said, "Jason, did you use steroids?"

[00:32:52]Jason looked in the camera and he said, "No."

[00:32:55]And everybody there who knew and who had covered Jason, nobody was trying to get him. Nobody was out to get him. We all felt terrible because we knew what a good dude he was.

[00:33:06]And and Jason the next year um after all the grand jury stuff went down he was the only guy who just walked over to me and he shook my head and he said I apologize for lying to you >> really >> and he said I was stuck. There was nothing I could do. They all the cameras were me and I was like gee you don't apologize to me. Like we all knew what was going down and it was a very difficult situation for everybody. So this whole idea that everybody is like yeah [ __ ] these guys.

[00:33:29]>> It's not really like that. I wish there was a way obviously but I wish there was a way that we could have seen if steroids didn't hit baseball what happened to baseball. What would have happened to baseball is I I think a huge question because it was trending downward when this >> strike. No, I mean you know they cancelceled the World Series.

[00:33:50]>> Yeah.

[00:33:50]>> I mean what happens to basketball if you cancel the NBA finals, >> right? I mean the fans are like we're not coming, you know, we don't have to come back to this. And so yeah, so immediately you get Ripken and Ripken's out there shaking hands with everybody and really bringing that goodwill back and then you get then you get Sosa Magcguire in 98 and then you get all of it and it does it made you feel good about the sport. It made you want to watch the sport and you're looking at the you know did Sosa hit one tonight?

[00:34:14]Did Magguire hit one? And all of a sudden you got a whole generation of people the game is back and there's no question about what that moment in time was like. Um but at the same time very soon after that when Bonds hit 73 in 01 everybody in the game was like you know what I mean was like all right enough all right but because Barry Barry was so good that you you looked at him and you're like this isn't I mean he's too good he's literally better he's beating the averages of you it's a video game now. And so that was when everybody was like, "Okay, you know, we we got to do something, right?

[00:34:59]We got to do something." And so that's when sort of the jig was up. But I mean, I I still look at that time period and it was so uncomfortable. You would walk in a dug I remember I was in Seattle one day. We're in Seattle. The A's are playing the the Mariners in the year the Mariners won 116 games. And I'm sitting on the rail in the dugout and the some of the A's coaches are watching Brett Boone take grounders and Brett Boone I think had like 141 RBI's that some crazy steroid era numbers and they're all tapping their hip >> the whole time >> like he's sticking the needle in his ass, >> right? I mean, they're all just accusing each other of everything. And the reason why I wrote that book was O2. We're in San Diego. Yankees are playing the Padres's Inner League. And we're just hanging out, you know, 3:00 in the afternoon, nothing happening, right? And here comes Reggie. And Reggie walks over to me and uh he walks over to our to the group, a bunch of beat riders, and he's all salty. And I'm like, "What are you mad about? They ain't even started.

[00:36:06]Like, you know, we should wake up on the wrong side of the bed." And he's like, "No, cuz you [ __ ] aren't doing your jobs.

[00:36:12]I'm like, "What did we do?" And he's like, "Steroids." He's like, "You guys aren't writing about it. Everybody knows what's happening."

[00:36:18]>> Interesting.

[00:36:18]>> And he said, he said, "Um, of course, because it's Reggie, it was personal."

[00:36:23]He's like, "I'm sixth on the home run list. I'm going to be 10th in 10 years."

[00:36:29]>> And he is. And so, you know, he was like, "Protect my legacy." Right. All right. You guys are protecting these guys. Protect me, too.

[00:36:37]>> And so, this was the climate in the sport.

[00:36:39]>> That's heavy, man. And I said to people, I was like, "Hey," and then you know, you have a whole bunch of fans going, "Well, how come you didn't write about this?"

[00:36:46]>> Cuz I don't want to get sued. That's why if you got you better have the goods on this, you can't just accuse people of stuff.

[00:36:51]>> So, this is the climate of the sport.

[00:36:53]>> Yeah. That's a heavy clim.

[00:36:55]>> You know what I mean? And it's like people just like, "Oh, you know, you guys are writers and it's a witch hunt."

[00:36:58]No, this was an industrywide failure.

[00:37:02]Everybody failed.

[00:37:03]>> Interesting.

[00:37:04]>> Well, they bounced back and we love to see it. I want to ask you about a couple guys before we get out of here. Ken Griffy Jr., one of my favorites. Um, obviously was on trajectory to be one of the greatest players of all time.

[00:37:15]Injuries caught up with him, but what what stands out when I say King Griffy >> for me personally?

[00:37:19]>> Yeah.

[00:37:20]>> I don't know. He hates me for some reason. Does he?

[00:37:22]>> I don't know why. I never even interviewed him. I don't get it. That's the first thing that sticks out to me.

[00:37:25]>> His talent.

[00:37:26]>> His tal Okay. His talent.

[00:37:28]>> Oh man. Like, >> let's put it this way. the national superstar thing we were talking about that Nintendo video game Ken Griffy baseball once again brings everybody into the sport. It was a fun game. It was like, you know, the the Griffy for President commercials, the Nike commercials and the whole superstar.

[00:37:46]>> Superstar, off the chart, superstar, joy to watch, superstar, >> 63, you know, 200 lb, runs runs like a deer in center field, superstar, all the things.

[00:37:56]>> Most beautiful swing, >> you know, and like you watch him and you go, "Oh, right. People who make you want to do this, make you want to be part of it." and and you know, Junior had his own demons about being a child star and the whole thing about being the son of a of a of a great player as well with, you know, with Ken Griffy, but for the fans watching in the seats, >> he's one of those guys. You stopped what you were doing when he was coming to bat >> and if you had $10 in your pocket and a ticket to see him was nine, you would give your money to watch him play.

[00:38:28]>> Absolutely.

[00:38:29]>> Bo Jackson, >> interesting character. Bo Jackson as a baseball player is one of the great whatifs. I mean both he and Dion one of the two of the great whatifs. Um because either one of them I think Bo was a better football player than baseball player and was probably going to be an infinitely better football player than baseball player. Dion is obviously Hall of Fame, but Dion could have been Hall of Fame in both.

[00:38:55]>> I mean Dion was >> that good >> business as a baseball player. I mean, you watch him play and watch him round the, you know, watch him round the bases, watch him run, I mean, all of it.

[00:39:04]>> Um, and he he says it, you know, if he had just decided to like give to baseball, obviously, you don't take away that football talent at at quarterback.

[00:39:13]If I were him, I would have made the same choice, but boy, as a baseball player, he could have been >> I mean, everything.

[00:39:21]>> Wow. And I was going to say, and that is the other reason when people say, "Oh yeah, you know, black, you know, black kids don't like [ __ ] right?" I remember sitting there when I was covering uh the politically incorrect Washington Redskins before they were the commanders. Uh when I was at the Washington Post, I remember sitting there when A-Rod reuped his deal and he had he had gotten 275 million. And I was sitting there, it was me, Shawn Taylor, Philip Daniels, Ronaldo Win, and Andre Carter. We're all just sitting there talking.

[00:39:49]>> Rest in peace to Shawn Taylor.

[00:39:51]>> Mhm. and we're talking about um A-Rod's contract and we're going back and forth and they're nodding and Sean nods his head and goes, "Damn, he better not get hurt. 275 million."

[00:40:01]>> And I was like, "Well, his contract's guaranteed." He's like, "Well, not if he gets hurt." I'm like, "Guaranteed?"

[00:40:08]>> Now, you say that to a football player where you just get, you know, at any time. They were like this. I mean, they were so stunned. They didn't know that those contracts were 100% guaranteed.

[00:40:21]And what was the reason why this was interesting was because Sean Taylor grew up Liberty City, right? All these guys, all the guy, all the Miami guys, um because Santana Moss was on the other side of the of the of the clubhouse.

[00:40:31]Same thing. They all came up playing baseball. Ronaldo win Chicago came up playing baseball. They all played baseball and then they made a business decision because college was either paid for if you played football or not paid for if you played baseball. So once again, when people say that that that baseball just doesn't appeal to black people is nonsense. It's the money, right? If you look for players, you'll find them. Where does baseball look for its talent? Baseball looks for its talent in the Dominican, in Latin America, and in suburban America. That's where you find your players.

[00:41:04]>> And that's why when you look at the number of black players now, a lot of those black players are the sons of former players. Money.

[00:41:11]>> Yeah. Came from it. Well, Howard, thank you for your time. Good luck with your book. um look forward to continue to build with you and and and soaking up stories and and and game from you, man.

[00:41:23]Brian, thank you for your time, bro. No doubt.

[00:41:27]>> That's a wrap. You can catch this on All the Smoke Productions YouTube and the DraftKings Network. See you guys.

[00:41:52]Oh hey.