You Escaped One Narcissist… And Walked Straight Into Another

Added: 2026-05-21

[00:00:00]Do you keep choosing narcissistic partners and don't know why? The answers might surprise you. My guest today is Bree Bonchay, licensed psychotherapist, narcissistic abuse expert, and founder of World Narcissistic Abuse Awareness Day. And Bree helps smart, self-aware people in the cycle of painful relationships heal what drives them and finally experience healthy love. So, if you've been searching for why you stay stuck in the cycle of toxic relationships, this episode will give you the answer. Let's get to it.

[00:00:40]Thank you, Bree, for joining me on the Restoring Resilience [music] podcast.

[00:00:43]I'm very excited to have you here today.

[00:00:46]Well, thanks for inviting me. I'm [music] excited to be here with you, too.

[00:00:49]>> Of course, yes. So, I'm so excited about what we're going to talk about today because I know that these are the kinds of conversations that really help people move from awareness to action. I actually recently recorded a podcast about, you know, how you can see the red flags and stay anyways, or why you saw the red flags and stayed anyways. And it ended up being one of my most popular episodes because I often think that survivors, we think that we're stuck because we're lacking some kind of insight or awareness about what we're dealing with. So, we do the deep dive on narcissism, narcissistic abuse, all the things. And awareness is certainly part of it, but I think we can get obsessed with just knowing all the signs of a narcissist, thinking that that's going to keep us safe. So, a lot of people feel like they just keep choosing the same kind of partner even when they see the red flags. So, in your work, why do you find that that tends to happen?

[00:01:46]Yeah, so I've been doing this for so many years, and what I've learned, you know, that in in the beginning when I started working with survivors, and you know, nobody really even knew what narcissism was. Like I I was really sort of on the verge of all when all this came out and educating people about narcissist and NPD and all of it, I thought that, you know, too. I thought like many people do. If we just learn the red flags and we can protect ourselves. And what I've seen over and over and over again all these years is it doesn't really work that way. And I think it's because many we think that attraction and love is a conscious choice. That we just say to ourselves, "Okay, I'm going to just choose, you know, better this time. If I see love bombing, I'm going to run. If they're inconsistent, I'm out of here." But the problem is that's not how love and attraction works. And what often is guiding our attraction is our emotional brain. So there's something that I in psychology, a metaphor that I use a lot with my clients. It's called the writer and the elephant. And basically the writer is our rational brain. It's the one that sees the red flags. It's the one that's like, "Hmm, I don't know about this person. I better, you know, better back off or I better take it real slow." And then there's the elephant.

[00:03:05]And the elephant is really driven. It's our emotional brain. It's driven by instinct. It's driven by emotion and familiarity. And so when it senses something, it goes. It's much stronger, faster, and more powerful than the rider. So the rider could be sitting on the elephant going, "Hey, wait. Slow down. Don't go there. There's a big red flag. This person is toxic." But if the elephant senses something familiar or senses um the instinct is to go there, there's something that's drawing them, that's magnetic, it's going to usually win cuz it's much stronger and faster than the rider. And so a lot of times we think when that happens, cuz I see this so often, is that people will become so educated and they'll learn everything there is to know. Then they go into the dating world and they fall for another narcissistic person. Oftentimes a lot worse. Somebody who's maybe way more covert, way more malevolent, and um then they feel a lot of shame and then they think, what do they do? They sort of double down. Think I better learn more or they're they're you know, there's insights I don't have and that's why this happened again. But really it's what I share in my work is it's all about understanding the elephant. It's not about trying to overpower the elephant or give or or speak more re- you know, um list and red flags and tell you know, tell the elephant more because the elephant doesn't understand that. It's about understanding our elephant, what what it's being driven by, what's feeling familiar, what and a lot about what we're going to talk about like unmet needs which I talk about.

[00:04:50]Yeah, I love that. I'm writing that down, the rider and the elephant because that is exactly what it feel It feels like trying to hold something back that is just so intense and innate. Like it and some oftentimes subconscious. Like you might not even necessarily you might think that you are I'm making such different choices. I'll speak for myself. I was married to a grandiose narcissist first and got out of that relationship and thought, okay, I want the complete opposite. I want nothing like that. So I'm going to look for somebody who is not arrogant or overpowering or trying to you know, act like they're better than everybody. So I then married a vulnerable narcissist or a covert narcissist because he seemed like the complete opposite. So this obsession of knowing about narcissism or just trying to spot all the red flags, it doesn't work A because there's different types of narcissists and B because of what you're saying, we're driven to choose people often from something subconscious.

[00:05:50]Yeah, that's a perfect example of, you know, from your own life about how you into your defense, you really did choose her. But, the thing that was driving the choices is the same. So, that's we see that a lot, too, in our relationship that like something from the outside could look completely different. Once you get into the relationship, you're like, "Huh, this feels exactly the same.

[00:06:14]I still feel like I'm never good enough." It's just a different flavor.

[00:06:18]So, that was a great example. Yes, 100%.

[00:06:21]I was just about to say not enough is is like the mantra for narcissistic relationships, but how they make you feel not enough can look different on the surface. Some are very passive-aggressive, some are overtly critical.

[00:06:36]But, like you said, it's it's the underlying how you end up feeling is the same. So, tell us a little bit more about the elephant, those unmet emotional needs. Like, what does that actually mean and how do they form?

[00:06:48]Yeah, so there's a lot of things that drive attraction. And and if people learn about attachment styles and things like that, that's a big factor, but what I a lot focus on a lot in my work in addition to all the other things is unmet needs. Because what I found is that we all, no matter what kind of childhood we come from, even if you felt loved and you had great parents, you most people have at least one or more unmet needs because no parent is perfect. Parents are stressed out, divorce happens, death happens, things happen, parents are overwhelmed, they have their own emotional issues from their own families of origin. And basically, you know, they're doing their best. So, no matter, you know, it just you don't have to come from a really difficult or hard or abusive childhood to grow up with a um unmet needs. The thing is, when you've grown up feeling loved by your parents, it's so much harder to spot your unmet needs because they're very they're very disguised. They're you know, it's it's much easier to sort of point to them when when you haven't had that. But either way, we all as children, they're have to have, they're not luxuries. We all have to have emotional and psychological safety, not all the time, but these are like consistently enough.

[00:08:09]Nobody is 100% We all need to feel that the freedom to express ourselves. We all need to feel supported, unconditionally loved. We all need to be able to have like joy and play that doesn't have to be earned or you know, so we need to have these like core emotional needs. I talk about seven. Sometimes there could be more. Um, other people have talked about more, but I talk about I focus on seven that I see kind of come up again and again for people. And um, what happens is when these needs aren't met as children, we we just we're very resilient and we learn to adapt. We and we develop around these needs. And a lot of times, so if if we're not if if we have maybe loving parents that weren't really present or emotionally available, maybe they worked two jobs, they weren't really there for us, um, then we learn to just become easy or we learn to be self-sufficient, we're strong one, right? Or maybe we've had parents who didn't really let us have our own self, right? We had narcissistic parents or So what do we learn? We learn to people please. We learn to like not really um, have needs, not not prioritize our needs, things like this. And then those are our really um, brilliant coping strategies. And then what happens is by the time we reach adulthood, we don't even think of them as coping strategies.

[00:09:35]We describe them as is I am. I've always been a strong one. Just a people pleaser. I'm, you know, I don't really need much. I don't really like conflict.

[00:09:43]Like all these ways or I'm a perfectionist. All these things that we kind of describe ourselves and think this just who I am or identity, really if we really look at them, most of the time they form from some sort of strategy of not getting a need met consistently enough in child. I I love that description and explanation. I'm just jotting that down because I I see the same thing happening with my clients. Like often times by the time you get to adulthood, we have formed our personality or our identity around what we had to do to feel like we were loved and like we belonged in our family.

[00:10:25]So I'm >> to keep up connections. You have to keep up feeling connected. Keep Yes. Yes, to keep Yeah, to keep the connection, to to feel like we're wanted, we're needed.

[00:10:36]And that's what you're saying it doesn't even if what I'm hearing is correct, you don't have to come from a traumatic childhood. It's just what you think you need to do to have love and belonging and connection. Yeah. Absolutely. It's It's It's one of those things that it I've worked with so many people and every every childhood there's at least one unmet need. And a lot of times when you've come from loving homes, this is people these folks tend to have a difficult time with it because they love their parents. They don't You know, and and they don't want to think they didn't get something that they needed. That's So a lot of times it's not about being upset with your parents or blaming parents. It's really just sort of recognizing the impact of being human, right? And our parents were human.

[00:11:22]Sometimes they were they were narcissistic and horrible, but sometimes they're just human. And it's just about recognizing whatever kind of parents you had, the impact of those. Sometimes we didn't have Maybe they We never met them.

[00:11:35]And even that plays like a lot of times if you have one and I see this often, if you've had one very loving parent and maybe a very disengaged, not very present parent, either they were physically present but emotionally absent or maybe just physically absent.

[00:11:52]Maybe you had like a Disneyland dad or something like that, right?

[00:11:56]You will grow up usually feeling quite loved because you had this like maybe this mother who gave you everything. So you feel very loved and you feel like all your needs were met. Even but the absence of a parent records in our nervous system. Yeah. And then when you go out into the world as an adult, that that Well, I tell this story a lot. It's kind of a silly story, but it kind of makes the point that when I was dating, I'm married now, but when I was dating, I I always picked the same type of guy.

[00:12:28]You know, it was like he was selfish, he was controlling, and really kind of emotionally unavailable.

[00:12:35]And no matter what I did, I always picked the same kind of guy and I tried not to. And then I realized like, okay, this it must be something I'm doing. Maybe it's not a bad thing, but like I'm the common denominator. I must There There's something going on here.

[00:12:49]So I really started to try to pay attention to sort of like what what it could be. And one thing I realized is like cuz I'm a very giving, generous person and um so I would when I'd go out on dates with men, I would immediately when the check came, I would before he even said anything, I'd rush to offer to pay half.

[00:13:08]There's nothing wrong with paying half.

[00:13:10]I didn't need anybody to pay for me. But I had a dad who was very emotionally absent, quite cold. I wasn't used to receiving from men, but from women, yes, from men, no. So I kind of showed up in the world with an expectation of not really being taken care of by men and guess what happened? I filtered in men who didn't really want to have to take care of me though in the beginning they they presented quite differently. They were you know very interested, pursued me and but that wasn't but because I have these what I call like micro behaviors of adaptations, right? I since I was so used to not receiving from men, what did I do? I just didn't expect to receive from men and then I acted in ways that didn't expect from men and I and and then I attracted those men.

[00:13:59]So, I don't know if that helps to explain sort of how our childhood unmet needs grow into our identities and then we have adaptations that then filter in the exact people we're trying to avoid.

[00:14:11]Oh, it makes a 100% sense. I'm sitting here thinking, are you talking about my childhood or your childhood? Who are you talking about? Um [laughter] because I would say I had a very similar story, a very loving, giving, never had to wonder, you know, about my mom. Uh complete unconditional love. And and then a dad who was neglectful and emotionally absent. So, yeah, same thing and we create these adaptations as you call them or another word might be uh schemas, like these mental maps for how we make sense of the world and what we learn to expect. What do I have to do or how do I have to show up? And like you said, they're they happen in the micro and they happen subconsciously. You weren't consciously aware of making those decisions. We don't recognize that. We think logically I want something somebody different. But like you were saying in your nervous system, you didn't know what that was like. You don't know what it's What does it feel like to be with particularly a male who shows you love and care and support.

[00:15:11]Like your nervous system had no awareness of what that was like.

[00:15:16]So, that would have felt very odd even if logically you wanted that.

[00:15:20]You probably will this will resonate with you and probably a lot of people and often times when that male has shown up we're like hmm I could probably agree.

[00:15:31]But like something I don't know. Like he's kind of boring or just feels flat or feels like something's missing because our nervous system kind of going back to the elephant isn't that's not really familiar and the elephant or chases what's familiar, what it knows, the path that it you know it's used to travel on. And so it's about retrain you know you get to understand your elephant then you have to retrain your elephant so that when that person does show up you're like hmm okay this is different but it even if it's not feeling as exciting or it feels maybe boring you start to like go okay but this is it's nice to not have to guess if somebody likes me. It's nice not it's nice to actually have somebody who wants to take care of me or it's you know what I mean like you instead of the other deal.

[00:16:19]Yeah and I think it's even expand on that we don't trust it. Like I know I felt that way you know for honestly growing up I I realized this now I didn't at the time but I was kind of preparing in my life to be betrayed to be cheated on. Like I was like okay well I've got I want to do this work and I want to be I knew I wanted to be a therapist from young age. I knew I wanted to help people but in the back of my mind I'm like well I need to have a career to fall back on if and when my husband's going to cheat on me because that was just what I had expected of men. That's what I saw that's that was the example.

[00:16:53]So you're almost like preparing to trying to prevent future traumas but you're preparing for them and you don't realize how that means you're kind of filtering in those men. Yeah exactly.

[00:17:05]You're so preparing for that to happen.

[00:17:08]You're doing little things that filter those men in. Like kind of expecting it right so then maybe you you have so then maybe when a a man I don't know, I'm just making this up, but maybe he has his phone face down at the table, right?

[00:17:21]Like, I'm not saying this is you, but like somebody who might be kind of like expecting it might not might not walk away from that, right? Cuz it's kind of expected. Men do this, right? I just kind of expect And this idea of like better the devil you know than the one you don't. Like at least I know you're you're almost looking for that that kind of man. You don't really know that like logically you think a healthy one exists, but you haven't seen that or felt that or at least for me I didn't necessarily feel like that was possible. Like I had to prepare for if and when that was going to happen. So from that perspective you're not going to pick somebody that actually won't cheat on you, who's going to be loyal to you because in your filter that doesn't really exist or it's not really possible.

[00:18:10]And even if you did date those healthy people, your nervous system would find a reason that they're not safe. That something about them just doesn't add up. Yeah, it doesn't Or you know, you probably would go like they're really great on paper.

[00:18:23]I'm not feeling it.

[00:18:25]Cuz your nervous system's not recognizing it doesn't feel like home or it doesn't feel known. It doesn't feel like this person gets you. It You know, your nervous it's not a match.

[00:18:36]>> Yeah. Yes. Yes, exactly. And a lot of times we will mistake chemistry for familiar chaos. Absolutely. Yeah. So something that's calm feels like not there's the spark isn't there. Which is why we have to do this healing work so our nervous system is actually attracted to healthy people instead of run from that. Right, which kind of brings us back is perfect because it brings us back to why the red flag learn like it's there it's not that it's not useful, but but it's not really the full protection people think it is because of exactly this. We have to really it's really about working our nervous systems, but first you have to understand like how is our nervous system wired? What's driving it? What what is it attracted to? You have So, you have to do all this sort of reflection and this work so then you can start to rewire it. Yes. Yeah, exactly.

[00:19:27]Now, how would you say that narcissistic individuals tend to target those unmet needs, especially early in a relationship? Yeah, so this is So, like a lot of times people will say narcissists target empathetic people.

[00:19:41]And so, there's some truth in that, right? Most A lot of people who pair up with narcissists tend to be empathetic, but here's something you give freely.

[00:19:49]It's not really necessarily targeted.

[00:19:51]Empathy is extending the benefit of the doubt. It's kind of understanding nuance, putting yourself in other people's shoes, really being able to like repair when something goes wrong.

[00:20:01]And narcissists, it's not that they're targeting that, but those empathy is what keeps you in a relationship once it's formed. Once the attachment's already there, then it kind of explains why you might stay or why you don't walk away when you're feeling harmed or something. So, that's that's really the role of empathy, but that's not necessarily what narcissists get. That's not what That's not what makes a narcissist feel so compelling to you when I know you've heard this You've even felt this, but like I know I have in my day that, you know, like I'll that person is so wrong for me. I see so many red flags, but I just can't help it.

[00:20:39]There's just something about them. I'm so attracted to them. Like, I'm going to date them cuz like, you know, maybe maybe this maybe maybe I'm wrong. Yeah.

[00:20:46]Right? And so, why that it's not They're not doing anything to my empathy in this moment. There's just something there.

[00:20:53]There's It There's so compelling and And often the reason is because our nervous system recognizes that something gets to finally be resolved. So, that unmet need of childhood, even though maybe it disappears from our awareness. And I hear this a lot, too. It's like, ask somebody what their unmet need is and they'll look at you sort of blankly, like, what are you talking about?

[00:21:14]Because it's there, but we, by the time we're adults, we really we're we've gone we've been so wonderful at adapting and developing and not not getting that need met or or getting it met in in other ways that we've kind of lost touch that it's [clears throat] even there. And that's kind of the scary part cuz then it can be sort of weaponized against us and that's kind of what narcissists do.

[00:21:35]So, when we talk about like narcissists mirror you, they're really good at attuning to people and they're really good at kind of figuring people out. And so, they can kind of tell instantly, oh, this person really has a need of being chosen. This This person has the need to feel um supported. And so, or whatever it could be, right? Or unconditionally love and acceptance. So, they're going to come in and they're going to act like they and they're going to do a pretty good job in the beginning of looking like they are the fulfillment of that need finally. So, when when that happens, it is powerful because it doesn't only feel like chemistry, it feels like relief. Like, oh my gosh, finally somebody gets me and finally I'm going to get this need met. And they do that for a while and they really make you feel like they're that person and then I'll but they're narcissistic so they can't keep it up long enough and then eventually they they exploit it.

[00:22:31]They they do the exact opposite. So, they don't choose you, they don't prioritize you, they don't love you unconditionally, you're always not good enough. And then that happens. But in the beginning, it's the longing, that that unmet need of that longing to finally be fulfilled that narcissist what makes them so attractive and so powerful and what makes people like, what I see is like, I see all the red flags, but I can't help it. But right?

[00:22:57]Like and they're I'm I mean, I heard it all the time, Bri, I'm just is to date this person. Yeah, I see this red flag, but I'm just going to date this person because And I get why they're saying it, because this longing is being activated, and it is more powerful than any Is that silent driver like you're talking about? I mean, this is how our unmet emotional needs end up shaping who we're attracted to.

[00:23:23]And making those making relationship choices for us, even against our logical brain. Again, like even if we see the red flags till to your point, seeing red flags is part of what keeps you safe, but it's really not the main thing that keeps you safe, because you can see all the red flags.

[00:23:39]And if you never address your unmet emotional needs, you're going to keep attracting that same person just in a different body. Yes, 100%. So, yes, it's about So, it's about like identifying your unmet need, so that one, you can start to give it to yourself in a healthy way. And it's not about not needing, because a lot of people will think, "Well, I just I'm going to just try to learn to not need to feel loved unconditionally. I'm just going to not need to feel chosen." No, that it's actually the opposite. There's nothing wrong with that. It's the thing is, first you need to give it to yourself, so it becomes like what I call a grounded expectation. So, then when you go out in the world, you approach everybody, especially dating, with the expectation that people are going to choose you. And so, when they don't, what happens? Well, you don't stick around, because now it's not it's not something I'm chasing saying, "Please give it to me. Give it to me. Fulfill this fulfill this unmet need." It's this Wait a minute. This is This is something that like I don't get. I'm out of here, because I know this is a need that I have to have met. It's It's a non-negotiable. Right. And And I like that grounded expectation. And cuz I I think a lot of uh narcissistic abuse survivors, we have a hard time accepting love, accepting help, accepting support, feeling good enough for love and and appreciation and validation from other people. So, to your point, if you find that unmet emotional need and start meeting it yourself, then you don't have such a void. And that's what narcissists are so good at coming and filling because narcissists are so intense in everything that they do.

[00:25:23]So, if you have a big emotional void, then it takes a narcissist to fill it.

[00:25:29]It might feel like a lot, but at the same time like they might feel overwhelming, but at the same time it also feels like relief. Like you said, it's like what I've been missing.

[00:25:37]Oh, this is love. I didn't know what real love was, but they really see me. Like they really get me. They really care about me. And part of you might be saying, "Well, this is really intense." Like I'm now spending all my time with them, or they always want to know where I am, and it's it's a lot, but it can feel like love. Yeah, especially if you need to feel chosen, right? Or if you want to feel emotionally safe, and somebody who comes on with such certainty who just fulfills that need of like safety, like I'm not going to abandon you, I'm not going to reject you. And it's it's so powerful, and you can see a million red flags, but every time most people are not going to listen to their intellectual brain, they're going to run with their elephant because the elephant is stronger, it's faster, and it is usually wins. Yeah, I think all things love love and attraction. For sure. So, obviously getting into therapy, finding a like a place to be able to process your or identify your unmet emotional needs is something people can do.

[00:26:34]Are there any practical tools that you seem to find that you use with clients to help them start to uncover this emotional unmet need? Yeah, so I'm working on this quiz that's going to go on my website. Yeah, it will help people like find their core unmet need, and then it will give them sort of like the whole breakdown of it like how it forms, um what sort of the thoughts are like common thoughts that people have that have this need and like reframes. And then also just to add just, you know, we might have this need but some of us express it differently.

[00:27:09]They're like if you you might have a need to feel chosen and you might be a clean what we call clean person, right? And you chase people or you kind of try to earn and prove and do all that. Well, you might have the need to feel chosen but you've adapted in a different way and you just decided I don't need anybody and I'm not going to, you know. So so so there's there's a different adaptation, right? So the same need, different adaptation. That's another thing that happens often that I see is like people will pair up who have the same need, different adaptation. And those people then will will have a relationship that is so feels so toxic because my adaptation hurts you and your adaptation hurts me right back. And we can never see each other's point of view because we're we're so much in our own pain. So what you know, it's so that happens a lot. But so going kind of going back, I kind of went off track.

[00:28:01]But I'm going to do that quiz. So that's one thing and then it will have like information. But something that I work with, um well, I I do a few different things but I really think compassion, like I know it people say it a lot but you know, a lot of times we will shame ourselves for like why did I fall for this again or why did I do this and stuff. And really if if we can just meet that more with compassion for like why that formed in the first place and not shame because cuz if you meet if you meet yourself with shame, you you make yourself especially vulnerable to a narcissistic people. They love to, you know, wield shame. And so the more compassion that you can use for yourself, meeting yourself when you like I hear so many people like if if you have a need to be feel unconditionally loved and accepted, you're probably may lean toward perfectionistic tendencies. You're probably harder on yourself and then that again makes you so vulnerable toward narcissistic that first you're going to be perfect and wonderful. It's going to feel so good, but then they're going to always make you feel like short on me, doing enough, good enough. And so what would we say to somebody who's perfectionist? You know, we'd say you need to have more compassion for yourself, not you need to do better or you need to always nail it, right? Like we would say, "No, you need to be more compassionate. You're human." And it's probably because you didn't get that enough as a child. Maybe you were only praised or valued when you performed, when you achieved. And it wasn't that you're Maybe your parents were narcissistic and that's why that happened or maybe your parents just didn't really just happened to give you more attention when you were successful or when you were achieving, you know.

[00:29:47]You know, so I could go for hours on that, but these are some common things I see in clients like the perfectionism or the not feeling supported.

[00:29:57]Um people-pleasing, right? These are the common ones that kind of come up over and over and sometimes a lot of us have a few of them, not just one. Yeah. I'm always listening and I'm like you're describing me. This is more like a therapy session to me. I'm like thinking through things.

[00:30:11]>> [laughter] >> Um cuz I I totally relate to that perfectionism and it does not come from wanting to be perfect. It comes from not feeling enough and feeling like you need to do more. And this is something I thought about a lot too and I finally came came to realize is that I also wanted to be I wrote this song when I was I don't know, eight or nine.

[00:30:28]And I had this line, this lyric of I want to be perfect so you can't tell me I'm wrong.

[00:30:34]And I thought about that later in adulthood and realized that my my tendency to try to be perfect is because my narcissistic dad, anything that I any anything that he could come in and kind of downplay or criticize or been like, "See, you should have come to me.

[00:30:52]Like, I could have saved you. I could have helped you." So, in my child mind, "Well, if I can just be perfect, you won't have anything on me.

[00:31:00]So, then I'll be safe." So, then again, it still comes back to that idea of what did you need to do in childhood to be safe? Like, not just physically, but emotionally.

[00:31:11]And we're left. Absolutely. And mine came from a different place, my perfectionism, but it you're right, it's not about being perfect. It's about for me it was not it was about always I felt like I was always had to be the strong one, so I couldn't let myself be messy.

[00:31:27]You couldn't like so, I I was the friend I felt like that everybody came to. I couldn't come to you and tell you my life was falling apart because I felt I could only be loved or lovable if I had it all together. Now, none of neither of my parents ever said that to me, and I don't recall feeling like that as a child, but if we were to talk, I could now take you through dynamics in my childhood that sort of set that up and as being who I am, kind of interpreted that way, adapted that way, and then took it into my adulthood.

[00:32:03]And that set me up for people who were unavailable and controlling and things because and and and frugal and selfish because they only wanted me when I was great. Like, but if you have a problem, I need to, you know, share my resources with you or whatever. No, they didn't want any part of it. Yes. Yeah. What I will often I'll I'll cuz some people have a hard time remembering their childhood, and so those clients struggle and they can be upset. Like, I don't really remember my childhood, so I don't know what my unmet emotional needs are.

[00:32:34]So, I think there's there's two ways I tend to guide people to figure that out is one is what did you need to do to be safe and loved if you can remember that in childhood or when did you feel most seen growing up. Or you can even start from current adult relationships and go what do I really value or want in my current relationships? And so either way that will tell you what is most important and likely what you felt you did not get growing up. Yes. And I think that can lead us to a couple like different types of narcissist because if you are more comfortable maybe with somebody else making decisions like you don't trust yourself then a grandiose narcissist is going to feel safe in a way because they always know the answer.

[00:33:17]They always know what's right like you know they're always confident they all they're obviously arrogant. If you are more familiar or more comfortable in the helper role like you're you're more comfortable like being the one who again gives help but doesn't get help because you're you know you don't feel worthy of that or feel guilty or shame if you don't have it all together then a then a covert vulnerable narcissist is going to feel quote safe in that way cuz you get to stay in the helper fixture role so a few different ways we can get to our emotional unmet needs.

[00:33:49]Exactly. Yeah but this has been incredible so thank you so much people are going to take away so much from this. One question I always ask at the end of the episode is just if you could tell somebody one thing that would help them start restoring their resilience today what would that be? Oh goodness I would say again I think I'm going to go back to give yourself a lot of compassion start with compassion think about yourself as a child and give that little child compassion and I would find a good therapist you know I would I would put down the books I mean that's I mean I'm writing a book so I mean but I mean really it's you know at some point that the knowledge isn't going it's going to carry you so far and really it's about maybe really just doing a lot of your own self-reflection just exploration but with so much compassion and love because once you do that you will then make yourself much safer cuz you're going to know your vulnerabilities, you're going to know what what narcissists will can exploit.

[00:34:56]You're going to start to know what you need to give yourself instead of like looking like unconsciously looking for it in other places. Not going to feel so magnetic anymore when you start to go, you know, that I can give myself that though. I would say.

[00:35:12]I agree, of course, finding a good therapist and I know people that can be an overwhelming feeling cuz not all therapists specialize in narcissistic abuse, but what I go back to is the most important thing and research says this, too. The most important thing that creates outcomes in therapy is feeling supported and safe with your therapist.

[00:35:30]Even if they don't understand everything about narcissistic abuse because one of the most overlooked but most important aspects of therapy is that you get to learn in real time what it feels like to be understood. You get to share your story and have somebody say, "Wow, that sounds like a lot. That's really hard. What was that like for you?" And it's within that exchange as your the nervous system begins to be rewired and it's like, "Oh, it's going to feel uncomfortable at first. You might not know what to say or what to do." But the more that you can have those experiences with somebody who is seeing you, who's supporting you, who's validating you, your nervous system is going to start to change. It's going to feel more comfortable with healthy people. You're going to learn how to give yourself more self-compassion, meet those unmet needs, which ultimately is going to help you protect yourself against narcissists.

[00:36:23]Yeah, so well said and that that's such a great point. You're right. People don't necessarily need the the the biggest narcissistic abuse expert because everything that you just described is basically through the therapeutic relationship. Those unmet needs will get met. Yeah. And yeah.

[00:36:40]Yeah. And so you learn that. And then it's but it's not just intellectual learning like you described. It's nervous system learning. It's emotional learning. And that's the learning that we all need to heal and grow. So that was perfectly said. Exactly. Well, Bree, thank you so much for being here. People are going to take away so much from this. Where can people find you and connect with you? The best place is probably on my website um BreeBonchay.com or they can, you know, follow me on Instagram or Facebook. Um so either one of those. Great. All right. Thank you so much. Thank you.

[00:37:16]Thank you again, Bree, for joining me. I hope you found this podcast helpful and validating in why you stay stuck in toxic relationships and how to get out of this cycle. I know it certainly was helpful for me. And I want to remind you that no matter where you are on your healing journey, resilience can be restored. And we'll keep building it together. So I'll see you in the next episode.

[00:37:34]>> [snorts]