Jung and the End of the World: Can Depth Psychology Save Us?

Ajouté : 2026-05-14

[00:00:00]And so I think death and destruction and strife and and whatever terms we want to to describe that inner chaos, it has to be channeled. I mean it's given it's we're thrown into this. At the same time it's not determined. It's not like destined. And that this is why the the interplay of opposites and tensions in the psyche have to work themselves through in various permutations.

[00:00:34]Welcome to this Yungian life. Three good friends and Yungian analysts Lisa Mariano, Deborah Stewart, and Joseph Lee invite you to join them for an intimate and honest conversation that brings a psychological perspective to important issues of the day.

[00:00:52]I'm Lisa Marchiano and I'm a Yungian analyst in Philadelphia.

[00:00:56]>> I'm Joseph Lee and I'm a Yungian analyst in Virginia Beach, Virginia.

[00:01:01]>> I'm Deborah Stewart, a Yungian analyst in Cape Cod.

[00:01:16]Well, welcome to a very special episode where I have a chance to interview a giant in the field of psychoanalysis.

[00:01:25]John Mills is a Canadian philosopher and psychoanalyst and a retired clinical psychologist and he is the honorary professor department of psych psychosocial and psychoanalytic studies at the University of Essex in the UK.

[00:01:40]He's got all kinds of other credentials under his belt and has authored or edited over 35 books in philosophy, psychoanalysis, psychology and cultural studies. And today I'm going to be talking with him about one of his recent books which is quite an important work.

[00:01:56]I can see it behind you there on the shelves. End of the world. And it is it is a a fascinating really important read. And I I must say it's a bit of a difficult read because it's it really confronts the reader with I'm just going to say our tendency towards self-destruction.

[00:02:16]And uh you you catalog these pretty thoroughly. So So maybe to start off, tell me how you came to write this book.

[00:02:27]What prompted you to to write it? It must have been a real labor of of you must have felt really compelled to write it.

[00:02:35]>> Well, first of all, thank you for having me on your show. I'm a big fan. Yes. The the the issue about the motivation.

[00:02:45]This is a this is a project that that really started over 25 years ago.

[00:02:51]>> So I was starting to look at the problem of human aggression and evil and just our internal you know modes of of self-destruction.

[00:03:06]uh and that you know that led to a paper and then I decided well maybe one day I will you know make this into a bigger project. So, but when you know when we started having more of a climate emergency that that unfolded over the over two decades, I started then to get into thinking about the project like what are the bigger existential threats or risks to humanity and and I just started, you know, getting that literature that's not in, you know, the field and and just becoming quite more acquainted with everything from, you know, global warming predicament to, you know, the possibility of of nuclear war to the issue around fundamental or my meonic religion.

[00:04:05]uh all all the big players that that could pressurize the system so to speaking our planet and looking at the economic literature then then looking at AI at that time before you know I published a book before our current AI time. So, and then I just started trying to put it put them together like a common what is the common thread and and and the motive really is for me to work out my own inner conflicts around this >> because that's that's what I like to do.

[00:04:46]I you know like to meditate on things and hopefully by the end of it I'm going to have some integration around the topic. And what what what integration did you reach as a result of working on this book?

[00:05:01]>> Quite a dismal one.

[00:05:03]Much more pessimistic than I thought that I would end up with.

[00:05:08]>> Mhm.

[00:05:09]>> So it's really really the integration was was in terms of maybe more of a intellectual appreciation but also you know ethical as well. What do we need to do to address this? And when you're asking that on an individual level, as as you know, we are much more capable of of engaging our interior, dealing with the interubjectivity of therapy to help us, you know, try to integrate and synthesize and and resolve conflicts.

[00:05:48]But here you're talking about the global scale of you know over 8 billion people and and so I I couldn't really come up with a you know a satisfactory solution other than it's enough just to be aware of the problem.

[00:06:09]>> And and how how would you define that problem? You say be aware of the problem. What is the problem?

[00:06:16]>> Yeah. Well, the problem is I think that we're just destroying ourselves and and it's not like a meteor is going to fall on us out of the sky or something like this. It's that we are creating our own the the foundation for our own future demise.

[00:06:38]So whether it be completely ignoring, you know, just, you know, thousands of scientists who have studied the the climate crisis as as what they do for living every day.

[00:06:56]And we we can see with our own our own eyes our climate, our environment is changing, the world is burning.

[00:07:05]And yet we act in such contradictory manner, cavalier manner where we either completely deny this as a as a problem as you know many people are doing particularly let's say the Trump administration is a good example dismantling environmental protection all these things ignoring the fossil fuel crisis but that's there's a number of these are complex issues. Not saying one should just do away with things, but they're all contributing. So when you're in denial, when you are in disavow of something where you acknowledge, oh yeah, it's there, but you know, big deal, you know, or they dissociate these realities, that stuff's going to come back >> to bite us.

[00:07:58]So that that's one problem >> that we're that we're in denial about the various ways that we're behaving destructively.

[00:08:08]You know, there's the individual level, right? Because any one of us can kind of move in and out of denial about something like climate change as we move through our lives. But the truth is and this is a very hard thing I think is that even as an individual if you if you say well this this must not continue you know I've got to do something that what a single individual can do is really limited you know somehow there has to be there has to be a collective solution there has to be collective action to address it >> and I think that's a very very hard pain.

[00:08:47]>> Yes, it is. That's why I coined the thought of this is a collective, you know, bystandard disorder at one point. I mean like we most people are aware I mean most educated people are aware of the dangers yet they're willing to either to to deny them to acknowledge them but but to minimize their impact or they're quick to intellectualize them away if if they're just not completely overwhelmed that they just dissociate it's too big of a problem to fix. So let let others deal with it. I I I'm I can't I can't handle it.

[00:09:35]But you're right that there needs to be collective action. But how do you mobilize people on a grand scale? It would have to be it would have to be governments that are making these ultimate decisions.

[00:09:49]And and that means that it's citizens who vote if if they're not from a oppressed nation or or subjugated as a people. We have to get people in there that are willing to make the the sacrifices needed to save us.

[00:10:10]>> Mhm. And you know, and I'm so aware that, you know, I I I was sort of coming of age in the 80s and you know, we were all very very worried about nuclear war.

[00:10:24]And at times it seemed like it was just going to be imminent or inevitable, you know, in the 80s that there might be, you know, nuclear destruction, mutual destruction between the United States and the Soviet Union.

[00:10:38]And somehow we we slipped through that.

[00:10:42]And now of course the problem of nuclear weapons has not at all gone away. But since that time climate change as you have pointed out has really come into focus. And that's another enormous existential issue. ecological degradation and you know largecale die offs of species that you know is sort of unprecedented even in geologic time and and now there's a new existential threat which is the possible existential threat of AI. Again, it it it's it's something that I as an individual can do very very little about.

[00:11:31]And it seems to me that as per your thesis, we have these companies that are racing toward improving this AI, which if they succeed, I think the AI will inevitably have the capability to destroy us. And it's not clear that they will have a reason not to.

[00:11:50]Well, that's a dismal thought, isn't it?

[00:11:54]The the issue is, and this is of course highly debated right now, but the issue is whether or not a machine can develop a sense of agency and develop a sense of self-consciousness that would then at least mimic a human being. And so the the the real issue is whether or not if if it attains that what kind of entity will it be? Will it be like a human being with every you know in internally conflicted driven motivations to want to exploit other people for their for its own gain.

[00:12:40]So I don't think uh machines are conscious at this at least at this point. I I would be shocked even if they were I mean we have to define what we mean by consciousness but >> sure >> would they have would they have an inner sense of subjectivity a unique relation to their own interior? Would they have emotions and feelings and and all of this that would drive?

[00:13:07]What would they desire? I mean th this this would these are some big questions.

[00:13:13]So if it does get to the point that they are autonomous then the issue will be the control problem. How do we control something?

[00:13:22]>> And if there's any indication that it can become autonomous then it should be shut down now.

[00:13:31]Well, I mean, I I've been rather obsessively keeping track of this and I I think there's there is real cause for concern. And of course, over the past few days, we're we're recording on April 19th. In the past few days, there's been this news that's come out about this mythos system that was built to to try to safeguard against hacking attempts. But it it's so good. I mean, in order to safeguard, it has to know how to do it. And basically, if it falls in the wrong hands, it would it would be disastrous. So, now they've they've they've slowed down the release of it. But, you know, there are problems. They talk about problems with alignment. It's it's pretty clear when they've tested models that these models, you know, often go rogue and kind of propagate bad behavior among themselves in a way that we don't really understand. And there's an issue of what they called scheming, you know. So they've run these tests on these models where they say they're going to shut them down, but they give them access to company email and the majority of the time the the system will choose to blackmail rather than to be shut down.

[00:14:49]And they've also run models like simulations with AIS and you know some kind of world friction scenario where the AI will choose to use nuclear weapons some vast proportion of the time. I mean these are just scenar obviously >> but it's but it's it doesn't look good.

[00:15:09]I mean, you you read these are these there's new studies coming out every day and it's, you know, there's there's a lot of cause for concern and and we don't understand them. You know, it's not some people think, well, we've programmed them, but that's not exactly how it works. I I'm not up on it enough to be able to explain how it works, but it we've sort of created this and then set it loose and it's kind of doing its own thing. And at the same time that they're developing AI, there are other people that are working on trying to understand how AI works, which is I mean it's fascinating, but it's certainly concerning. But I but I think that you know the reason I wanted to raise it is I I I think that your point that you make repeatedly in this book kind of applies that we we have real reason to be concerned and yet we are ignoring that and plunging forward. And I mean there are certainly reasons strategic reasons to plunge forward. I mean for one thing we're racing to develop super intelligent AI because if we don't do it first then China may so there's that kind of arms race dynamic that was absolutely it was very you know very much the same thing in the development of nuclear weapons of course you know so you can you sort of understand it but it still is crazy you know there there's a level it's kind of psychotic so what is it about what is it about us or our nature Sure. I mean, what can what can we as psychoanalysts bring to bear on this? How can we understand this tendency that we seem to have to race toward our own destruction?

[00:16:52]Yeah, that's a great a great scenario that you painted because it just immediately made me realize if this is something that a a machine is doing that is concerned about control, power, killing in in a very unreflective manner, then what does that tell us about nature in general?

[00:17:17]>> Mhm.

[00:17:17]>> Particularly our human nature. So, so if they if they didn't program these tendencies into, you know, into computers and and artificial intelligence, how is it that that a machine would want to to emulate the same kind of internal tendencies that humans have? So that that would tie into a bigger question of what is maybe even a metaphysical question of what is at play in the human race or even in the universe.

[00:17:54]>> Yep.

[00:17:54]>> And so there's there there tends to be a proclivity toward aggression, killing, and self-d and self-destruction at the same time. Yeah, I I think that's a really interesting question. Is this just sort of in some ways a fundamental law that given certain circumstances, this is what will arise? And and that makes me think of I suppose a metaphysical question. What is evil and does it exist and how do we understand it?

[00:18:26]>> Well, sure definitely evil does exist.

[00:18:30]It's it's what how we want to define it, I think.

[00:18:35]So, is it on the human plane or or is it on a supernatural plane?

[00:18:42]>> I I tend to put the second or the latter aside. And I think that people are innately destructive and innately evil.

[00:18:52]And it's about taming those forces within which of course is a very yungian idea with the notion of shadow >> complexes and and and forces but you you also can't have the good without the evil. I mean they're dialectically related and they're mutually implicative.

[00:19:16]They're they're always operating.

[00:19:19]Everything is of course an inner play of oppositions in the sense. But are certain tendencies that we might characterize as innately you know horrendous or odious are they all ultimately destructive? No.

[00:19:38]It's it's interesting that we have to kill in order to eat or to live as >> I mean the these are these are fundamental you know, aspects of of of living. So what do we do though when you have evil that's personified in a state when you have psychopathic leaders running the world and that are indiscriminately continuing to get us into wars or kill innocent civilians as casualties.

[00:20:13]the these are these are more I think in line with a psychoanalytic sensibility rather than let's say a theological argument. We could certainly go to we could go to that level. There's a lot of apocalyptic thinking that's based on you know scatological kinds of ways of looking at the end of the world that could very much be operative in certain people's psyches.

[00:20:40]Mhm.

[00:20:40]>> that that this is, you know, a divine order.

[00:20:45]And doesn't that sound perverted that that God would want to kill his children or bring bring about an end in that way?

[00:20:54]>> Boy, there's so many places to go with that. But but just sticking for a second on evil and and kind of a psychoanalytic understanding of that. I mean, of course, as you mentioned, Jung talked about shadow, and Jung was also very clear that he thought that evil existed and wasn't simply the absence of good.

[00:21:16]So, he had some discussions, some sort of theological discussions. You know, there's some doctrines that say that that that evil evil is simply the absence of good. But, but Young said, "No, no, no. There's such a force. It's sort of has a positive existence. It has its its own existence. It's not just the absence of something else and you better be aware of it otherwise it it will overtake you know and you have to be aware of it young said as a potential or a reality even within yourself not just as something that exists out there. So I think you know what a what a Yian might say in response to what Jung might say for in response to your book would would be the imperative that each of us would do our own psychological work especially on withdrawing the projection of the shadow on others. And of course, you know, Eric Hanoyman wrote Depth Psychology and a new ethic shortly after World War II. And he said, you know, we used to deal with things that we didn't like by projecting our shadow on them.

[00:22:23]And I want to come to one of the chapters in your book about this. He said, that's no longer going to work.

[00:22:29]We're going to destroy each other if we keep doing that. So, we have to do this shadow work. So in a sense that's really kind of optimistic in a way because it says here's something we can do and it's something we we can all do and Young said you know at one point someone asked Jung will we sur will humanity survive and he said well it kind of hangs by a thin thread but if enough people do the psychological work and withdraw the shadow protection then I think we might squeak by. Mhm.

[00:22:56]>> So that is that is actually, you know, a fairly, as I said, optimistic and empowering read on things because it it does say, look, there's something that each of us as individuals can do. I think that it's harder to do that than we think because I I think a lot of us look at some of the evil in the world and we set out to correct it and it's very hard not to just point a finger and say it's the Trump administration, it's these guys, it's you know and that that kind of like activist fervor but actually if we get too far into that we're just doing more shadow projection.

[00:23:33]So it takes a certain kind of real discipline to constantly say where is that in me? Where is that in me? Where is that in me? But I'm wondering if I can ask you. So I've just sort of maybe laid out a Yianian way of thinking about evil. But what would Freud say about evil in the soul of mankind? What would be a Freudian understanding of that? I mean, it would have to do with with the id. No, >> I would think that that Freud would certainly have views that are very similar to Yung in understanding.

[00:24:09]There's nothing that's incompatible with the two systems in that way.

[00:24:13]>> Mhm.

[00:24:14]>> Yeah. Freud would would likely start with what he felt was the the root of the psyche and that is the you know the dialectic between the drives.

[00:24:28]So what would it ever be aeros life force and and the death drive and that these are working in tandem. So hence they're dialectical as well. Well, they're opposites, but but they also come out of the same the same spot as you as you rightfully pointed out, the unconscious.

[00:24:50]And so, like anything in life, I mean, the psyche is a developmental achievement.

[00:24:57]So, we're not born this way. We become and evolve and we have to grapple with these more primitive forces in us. At the same time they are a life force.

[00:25:13]They have to be modified. They have to be differentiated. They have to be then applied in very positive ways. And this is why we have civilizations that are you know able to survive because they they end up improving. We were becoming much more ethical as spiritual people in terms of a human human race in many ways even though there's all these regressive retrograde forces that are operative.

[00:25:46]>> So you see some sort of evolution.

[00:25:49]>> Well, evolution in can be described in many ways. One one could look at it in terms of our embodiment. Of course, you can't deny the fact that we're embodied and one can also look at it psychologically that we we evolve and that based upon our values, based upon our identifications, based upon our inner experiences and what we, you know, what we cherish more, then these are these are exalted ideals and values that that in many ways we have advanced I mean the notion of of what is justice you know we're having fairness in terms of laws and you know in terms of the psyche that's oriented toward a religious attitude >> or an aesthetic one or a philosophically inclined one. I mean, there there's definitely an evolution in that in the sense that we're not just simply animals.

[00:26:57]>> Yeah. You know, there's that famous Martin Luther King quote, the ark of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice. And I I sometimes I think that's really true, right? I I'm I come I'm kind of a history buff. And so, you know, I like I like reading about, you know, things that happened 500 years or so ago. And and if you look at, you know, what was considered, you know, justice, say back in Tutor England, you know, if you didn't go along with the king, you might get boiled alive or something like that. And now that wouldn't stand like no one would say that that was okay. Horrible things might still happen, but I think there's there's a sensibility, you know, that we all we would all agree that that's not okay. And the the recent, you know, past 10 years or so kind of cancel culture. I mean, I know a lot of people have suffered greatly because of cancel culture, and I don't want to minimize it. People have lost jobs and they've lost reputations, and some people have been, you know, terribly harmed by it, but it used to be that if you went against what the crowd thought, you you maybe got stoned or or or something worse. And, you know, so now maybe you get kicked off Twitter, you know, it's like I mean, again, I don't I don't want to dimminimize that there's been real harm done, but it is different. you know, you lose your job versus you lose your life. Of course, in some places in the world, you would still lose your life for saying the wrong thing. But it it does it does give you a sense that there has been some kind of movement forward. And yet, of course, some of the worst atrocities in human history have occurred in recent times. So, that's a paradox.

[00:28:34]>> Yeah, it sure is. On one hand, we could say in many ways we're the most enlightened ethical species alive and on the other hand, we're the only one that that takes pleasure in killing people and other species don't. So the idea in my mind is that all of this is rooted in pathos or suffering. You know to to be human is to suffer and it is to find ways of ameliating that givenness of our existence.

[00:29:16]And you know some of us are able to you know sublimate this to some degree in very successful ways. Others succumb to their pathology and they then enact those destructive forces whether it be like you mentioned earlier projecting them outwardly which is of course very easy to do.

[00:29:41]It's hard to again use the the the language the the yian language since I'm on your show of holding the tension of opposites, right?

[00:29:51]>> Yeah.

[00:29:52]Like there there are these forces going on here and you just can't just rush in and take one side without analyzing and paying attention to the other side and not simply wanting to say one side is superior, the other is bad and should be eliminated. That's the ba a basic mechanism of splitting and we all do it because it's it's the way the nature of the psyche is organized.

[00:30:20]>> Mh. On one hand, the very nature of thought of thinking itself is based upon divisions of identity and difference.

[00:30:32]And then when you when you then you have all these emotional and passionate or desirous conflicts that you're then evacuating onto the designated evil other who's that person over there.

[00:30:46]That's an easy way of of, you know, resolving the internal split, but it's it's never going to work because the other the other guy is going to also hate you. And and they're going to be coming coming for you no matter what.

[00:31:04]>> Mhm.

[00:31:05]>> And getting back to your earlier point, we're not only stockpiling nuclear arms, we're modernizing them.

[00:31:14]>> Oh god. just in case, you know, like the comment you made about the AI race, >> the mere thought that that you would say if we don't get there first, China will and they're going to kill us is a paranoid position like, well, why would they kill us? I mean, you know, I mean, the way things are construed is it's basic to human nature. I understand it but it's ultimately simple. It's binary logic that is c is certainly not a sophisticated or mature way of thinking about complexities or complexifications in the world.

[00:32:00]>> You know, there's something about that though, like taking the paranoid position, assuming that the other guy is out to get you and stockpiling your nuclear weapons. And I'm thinking I'm thinking about how this plays out even to just you know relationships with people in our lives right like when trust breaks down or something and you just like assume the other guys out to get you and then you know are you naive if you don't become you know take a defensive stance and and stock you know metaphorically stockpile your nuclear weapons you know sometimes people do come for you and then you got to be ready right >> well that's a survival mechanism Sure.

[00:32:40]>> Yeah.

[00:32:41]>> Just in case somebody busts in my house, I, you know, I have a riot shotgun waiting for them, you know. So >> Mhm. Mhm.

[00:32:49]>> The the the paranoid position though can take on its own autonomous life and you can distort what what's really happening quite easily. As you put it earlier, like you you can enter to some kind of psychotic universe. It's easier, of course, to do that when it's on big scales that are impersonal, right?

[00:33:14]>> That that we're not directly involved, you know, on the ground with >> cuz it's easier to project then, right?

[00:33:22]It's easier to see other people as other when it's not someone that you're directly connected with. And then there's the mass psychology too, which of course Young was very distrustful of, but it's that dynamic of, you know, when you're in a big crowd and feeling gets very contagious and and there there can be this kind of lowering of consciousness down to the kind of lowest common denominator level.

[00:33:49]>> Well, yes. I mean, mass mass movements are the most dangerous, right?

[00:33:53]>> They have they have no brain. They're not rational. It's just raw desire and conflict and passion and motion that that drives group thinking. So here's a question that's occurring to me right now. I mean can we understand this as largely related to the fact that we as homo sapiens evolved in an environment where there was intergroup competition. I'm I guess I'm going evolutionary psychology.

[00:34:27]>> Well, that would certainly be one element of it. Another element is mutual cooperation.

[00:34:34]So you you have to have the do both sides of the coin operative.

[00:34:40]So on one hand, yeah, I mean I'm a good example. I mean like I am very competitive. I like to argue and I like to win. I mean, at the same time, I'm not going to exploit and and harm people that, you know, that I identify with or value. And and so, just if you're just completely a rogue, you know, selfish, hedonistic narcissist, like there are many, then you're you're going to just go through life probably, you know, with a whole trail of debris in your in your wake. But we have also evolved not just out of aggression and competition and rivalry, but as a species, we've had to rely upon one another. We've built societies and and civilizations based upon that. So I think they're both operative, >> right? And and you make that point in your book, too, that kind of prejudice can either bring us together and and uh bind us or it can uh set us at each other. And it's kind of the same mechanism, right? So there's there's forces that cause us to feel connected with and kind of pro-social towards those that we see as our kind of confederates, but at the same time, those that we see as other we we can we can feel and and enact great hostility toward, you know, and that's that's tricky. And I I think we I think we also I think it's good to know that like this like our tendency to sort of other people is see them as other prejudice. It's sort of a it's a feature not a bug and uh we we would we would do well to to come to terms with that. But the interesting thing is, I mean, I just hadn't thought of it and someone said it and I thought, "Oh my god." Right. Part of the, you know, part of the the difference in the America that I knew growing up until about the mid '9s was it was it was a different place sort of maybe after about 2000. It felt really different. It felt it felt much more polarized. Right. That's where I I I would say that 2000 election is when it first started feeling really really polarized and it only got more so obviously now it's incredibly polarized and someone pointed out that when before the Soviet Union collapsed there there was an outer entity that was a common enemy. So there was an other that we could all agree regardless of what we thought about abortion or immigration or any other hot button issue. We could all agree that we didn't want to be like them. And now that's kind of gone away.

[00:37:33]We don't have that, you know, that sort of that clear opposite.

[00:37:39]and and now it's a little more chaotic and and we're we're we're fractured from within more.

[00:37:46]So, it's almost like it's almost like we have to have an other.

[00:37:50]>> Well, no matter what, we we have to because we're not all the same.

[00:37:58]And so you know difference in any form is automatically going to you know define who we are in relation to what we are not. And so you know again basic ways of constructing personal and group identities based upon identifications are on some level they can be quite simple. This is how you were raised.

[00:38:25]This is how you grew up. this is the type of community you're in. Are you of the same race, a religion, val so-called value system?

[00:38:35]>> Mhm.

[00:38:36]>> And the minute you introduce any threat to that, you know, splitting and projection and and and the like get mobilized. But at the same time we are constantly bombarded with multiple identifications with difference. In fact you're draw you're drawn to difference in many ways.

[00:39:01]You want to incorporate you want to appreciate.

[00:39:05]So it's not a simple binary by by any means but it is like again a mechanism for how prejudice plays out.

[00:39:16]>> Mhm. I I think ultimately we need to have enemies. We need to have a whipping boy, you know, or a post to displace all of our frustrations, rage, disappointments, the hatred that's been, you know, welling up that can't be repressed and and take great pleasure in being able to eject it onto some designated symbolic other. Did you ever read a book, it's an older book now, called The Conquest of America?

[00:39:48]>> No, I don't think so.

[00:39:49]>> The author's name was Todorov, and I I probably shouldn't talk about it because I haven't I literally haven't read it since like 1986, but it's really stayed with me. I still have it on my bookshelf. So Todorov looked at the conquest of America by you know of the conquest of the Aztecs by the Spanish and he he talked about the sort of outer other. So the Spanish came over under Cortez and like kind of obliterated this whole culture but then he was looking at the Aztecs and they had you know they they they sacrificed I guess it was members of their own. I mean, and we know now there's actually like new archaeological evidence that yeah, they they did they sacrificed a lot of people, but Todor was sort of saying what you were just saying, like we need we need to have some enemy and Todor was saying like here's a culture that had a mechanism that was sort of built in for I guess kind of projection of whatever needed to be expuned onto these people who were sacrificed.

[00:40:56]And and I think you know I don't know it's within the past year or something there was some the new archaeological evidence is like yeah there were like I don't remember but like huge piles of bodies that were sacrificed >> versus this arguably much more destructive thing that the Spanish did by coming over and kind of just wiping out this whole culture. It was really fascinating. It's not a psychology book but it strikes me as one of the most psychological histories I've ever read.

[00:41:24]But it it's really kind of mapping on to what you're saying like is this just part of our nature that somehow this is what we need to do is we we almost have to I don't know manage some aspect of our of our collective life through some sort of violence.

[00:41:44]Yeah. Sadly, I can never envision a future devoid of violence, destruction, murder, savagery.

[00:41:55]I I think it's as natural as breathing.

[00:41:59]You You're only going to tame it. And that might be a dismal way of looking at things, but you're getting back to the question of what is human nature? And that by itself is a universal question.

[00:42:16]What is something that that that we all have in common that that motivates us, drives us, makes us tick, whatever language you want to use. And that would mean that we have to have some kind of common essence to the psyche. And so I think again death and destruction and strife and and whatever terms we want to to describe that inner chaos it has to be channeled. I mean it's given it's we're thrown into this. At the same time it's not determined. It's not like destined >> like it's the end the end product isn't isn't like a teologically a given outcome. And that this is why the the interplay of opposites and tensions in the psyche have to work themselves through in various permutations.

[00:43:14]And eventually those who don't learn how to inhibit bridal their destructive forces within are are going to be a casualty cuz the reality prince will will be coming crashing home. Mhm.

[00:43:32]>> You know, you're going to go to jail, you're going to lose your job, you're going to whatever the negative consequence will be, let's kill our planet, set it on fire.

[00:43:44]At the same time, we're missing all the the positive significance of the negative. You have to have that violent factor in order to bring about something that's better, that's on a higher tier. And this is the paradox or the aporeia that we encounter that that how is it that violence is a necessary force to the psyche that that brings about a a greater good or a higher value. That that is important because that's what the whole history of human race is built on that we've improved ourselves.

[00:44:24]>> Yeah. that and and I'm thinking about that the sort of psychological fact that there there there often has to be a kind of you know an inner destruction or a sort of inner death before a new attitude can be created for example you know so that that truth seems to operate on on many levels and and how do we make room for that and know at the same time as your book points out that kind of operating in this current environment that we're in. We We really are headed perhaps directly towards self-destruction.

[00:45:01]And will there be something? Will we be around to see the new thing come? I mean, we may not be.

[00:45:09]>> Well, I hate to be alarmist about matters, but I'm also a realist. And if we can't agree upon you know truth and reality or at least empirically validated facts then we are living in a little fantasy world you know delusional land. So I I think the writing's on the wall that we need to to wake up. We we need to overcome our unconsciousness so to speak on this issue and you know stop the polyianish denial or negation of the very thing that's staring us in the face.

[00:45:49]>> I gather you're thinking most prominently right now of of climate change. is that when when you say what's staring us in the face >> that the threat of a of a global nuclear engagement what's going on over in Iran you know and >> and also the a the AI threat and of course all of these things are dependent upon capital you know economic disparities versus those who get to exploit and enrich themselves and that's that's interconnected Mhm.

[00:46:25]>> And so how do we how do we as individuals what do we do as individuals about that do you think? Like what what someone listening to this and maybe feeling some some despair? What what could what could a single person do?

[00:46:41]Well, you know, I do I do have some some suggestions in the book, but like you said earlier, what we can do as one person to affect a global change is nil. And we can do things to make us feel better, feel good, and do our part. But I I I would say it it was going to have to take like you as you pointed out a collective action on a larger scale.

[00:47:18]>> How do we do that? I mean, you could have, of course, grassroot movements where you get small group of people that at least identify with your your values and your aims and you come together based in principles and then you in some ways like a missionary try to spread the word.

[00:47:38]you appeal to people's lives, their current realities, these, you know, plating, you know, fantasies that aren't real.

[00:47:52]And and no more platitudes. And unfortunately, this is what politics is all about. And if you can at least influence those in political office to align with your goals and your values, then that can be achieved on some level.

[00:48:11]And people vote people out all the time they don't like and vote people in that they want. We just don't know how the outcome is going to be. Once again, I think it comes down to policy changes to changing the law. And a number of this, you know, comes down again to money.

[00:48:31]Who's making the money? Who's going to have to give it up? Who's going to have to sacrifice?

[00:48:36]And who's going to maintain a a need for self-interest and greed over a collective ideal. So, I want to add something to that and I I'd like to know what what you think about this because I I have a I guess a pretty strong conviction that one of the things that we need in order to solve these big problems is the ability to to at least talk to each other, even maybe talk to people that we disagree with. And I I feel like that is really broken down and and and for example, I don't think that it is constructive to simply like point fingers and, you know, rant about how wrong the other guy is. It it doesn't really seem to change anything when we do that. And then, you know, we're really just preaching to the choir and the people who already agree with us already agree with us and we just denounce the other guy more and and you know, and I I honestly think that's kind of going on at least in American politics kind of on both sides. And it alarms me because you know, I I think we need to be finding some common ground from which we can move forward. But, you know, and and where where is that in the sort of psychological language? You and I have already referred to these concepts. I mean, I think when we're simply denouncing the other guy, which admittedly is pretty easy to do, but but that's more shadow projection, right?

[00:50:09]And you know, Jung said you can't project shadow if there isn't a hook.

[00:50:14]And there may be a giant hook. I am not denying that. But but I also think that that if that if we're convinced that that they're all wrong and that we've got all the answers, we're in problematic territory right there because that only works if if it's a dictatorship and we're in charge and and that and you don't want that system because it'll be their turn to be in charge at some point too and that that won't be good. So, so I, so I think that part of addressing this is to do what I said before, Jung said was necessary, which is to withdraw shadow projection.

[00:50:58]And then the other part is the phrase that you brought up to be able to hold the tension of the opposites not to collapse into to throw out another psycho bababble term kind of the the paranoid skezoid position of Melanie Klene where all the bad's out there and all the goods in here and you know I'm going to just wall myself off because everything out there is bad. But to be able to imagine that even the people that we find most exeable might we could at least grant that they they may have good intentions even if we might think you know we we have very different ways of going about things or something like that. But it's like if we're going to address a problem like climate change simply talking about how bad the other guy is is not going to help. And in fact it's probably going to make things worse. So I don't know if you have any thoughts about that.

[00:51:53]>> Yeah. No, very I think that's really excellent point.

[00:51:59]The the issue is how do we how do we create or foster an environment where people can come together and they can mutually understand each other and then they can then show some form of recognition of the other.

[00:52:17]Now this is of course extremely difficult but this is kind of like what we do as therapists.

[00:52:25]So how do we how do we subject or submit the the citizens of the world to a well-intended therapist who would like to heal the split? Well, you have to well, you have to first get people willing to be in the same room together and just like anyone coming into the consulting room, I want to understand their experience.

[00:52:54]So, it would be like to use the, you know, the the notion of hospitality. You know, you're you're willing to invite the enemy into your house.

[00:53:05]>> Mhm.

[00:53:06]under under certain conditions that you you want to have a talk and you'll even feed them a meal and and yet there's certain rules to be observed while being in my house. The the notion though is whether or not you can get anyone to step across the threshold to even have that initial dialogue. That's really interesting because you've just helped me with something because in a lot of traditional cultures there is such an incredibly strong value around hospitality.

[00:53:40]There are many traditions and there there's sacrosanked you know about how you treat a guest and and there are myths about it and there are fairy tales about it. There's something profound about it and I think you've just helped me understand you know it's it's it must have something to do with exactly what we've been talking about that in some way the cultural artifact of hospitality somehow mitigates some of our more primitive aggressive urges. you know that you you absolutely for example that the duty of the host to welcome the person in and feed them a meal or whatever and offer them a place to sleep. It's it's sacrosanked and >> that would be an interesting thing to explore, you know, but and and to and to carry that into our political lives.

[00:54:39]Like when you when you meet someone whom you disagree with, can you invoke that archetype of the guest, you know?

[00:54:46]and and uh even though you're a stranger to me, can I can I welcome you into my psychic home at least for a meal? You don't have to move in.

[00:54:57]>> But metaphorically, could I could I imagine sort of share breaking bread with you, you know?

[00:55:03]>> Yes. Yeah.

[00:55:04]>> That's that's a really interesting interesting question. What else would you like us to know? Well, you Yeah, Lisa, you just made me, you know, think about I think when people come together under conflict, they really they really want their inner pain to go away. They they really don't want it. M >> and and when you when you're hearing someone else's hardship and you realize that they're a human being just like me, you you can you can see, you know, the this their soul and and if you if you can have empathy and some identification with what they're going through, it makes a lot easier, I I think, to connect with people even if you disagree.

[00:55:55]Mhm.

[00:55:57]>> So, it's so much that's why it's so much more difficult to just be aggressive toward another when you're in their presence. And ultimately, there has to be a desire to want to have some peace about these things. You, you know, you want to get rid of things. You want to you don't want to harbor it anymore. And if you could come to some kind of mutual recognition or negotiation around our differences and and perhaps even have a shared identification that you both can come, you know, whether side can come and connect with, then there's some shared meaning in that.

[00:56:33]>> Yeah. It's it seems like recognizing our common humanity, you know, rather than recognizing the group to which we belong, you know, I'm an American and you're a Canadian.

[00:56:48]But just recognizing that that kind of that universality of being human is part of the antidote, isn't it? Of of really of really being able to receive one another even in our differences.

[00:57:02]Yeah, that that's well very well put.

[00:57:06]>> Jung said, "The most important political, social, and spiritual work we can do is to withdraw the projection of our own shadow onto others."

[00:57:15]>> It's a tall order, isn't it?

[00:57:18]>> It is. It is because I because we don't know we're doing it, you know? We don't even know we're doing it. And I think that's that's part of that's part of what needs to happen after reading your book. But it's It's it's not the only thing, is it? Because you also referenced you alo also referenced just a minute ago that we need to get out of our fantasy world and accept sort of objective facts about things which is easier said than done because it can be very hard to wade through the misinformation to decide what is what is reality here.

[00:58:02]I mean certainly that's true with climate change. There's lots of people if you look for it, you can find people who say there's nothing to worry about.

[00:58:10]That information would not be correct, but there's plenty of information out there like that. So figuring out what to what to believe these days is hard. But if we if we were all working off the same set of facts and we weren't giving into stories that suit our desire for denial, that would also probably move us forward.

[00:58:36]>> It sure would. But unfortunately, this is my cynicism comes out here because I don't think the world masses are capable of doing this on a grand scale. I mean, mo most people are, and I'm not saying this in a negative way, but they're they're not very reflective. They just go through their life, you know, they do things. They're for the most part they they might be decent people in their heart.

[00:59:05]They're just not, you know, incredibly self-reflective.

[00:59:12]And and so it's much easier just to have a conditioned way of being told this is the way things are rather than have to go through the laborious task of having to dissect the information yourself, think critically about it and before forming a judgment.

[00:59:30]The mind just wants immediate release, right? It's easier it's easier just to think in terms of basic splitting, good, bad. But if they were, if more people became more self-conscious about these things, I mean, like like you you point out, you don't know what's real from what's being manufactured by a bad actor now. You don't know what's going on in all our media in in all our news outlets, everything. It's just like it's too it's also too much from for most people to be tracking what's going on every second of the day. And it's very depleting. It's depleting to the psyche, too. You're constantly submerged in negativity.

[01:00:14]You're, you know, unless you're watching kitten videos, you're getting the new the world news, and it's not pretty.

[01:00:23]Speaking of which, I have a a sort of final question to ask you, I think, about this book. What was it like writing it? Because it it's it's it's pretty confrontive. I imagine being steeped in it was difficult.

[01:00:39]>> Well, I guess as I mentioned earlier, I tend to meditate on things to try to resolve them in my own mind >> and that takes me to places that I I'm surprised I'm going to go because I I never know what, you know, I'm the type of of a thinker and a writer that I never plan out what I want to say. It's all based on an an organic process at the time. And this is where it kind of led me.

[01:01:11]Unfortunately, I couldn't get I couldn't get the transcendent function to to men that to bring everything together where there was a happy ending.

[01:01:22]>> That's what I'm hoping. I want I'd like to have the happy ending, you know, where where we wake up from from our collective denial.

[01:01:33]>> Well, I would like that happy ending, too. And I don't know, perhaps perhaps our podcast episode is a drop in the bucket toward that. So, >> we'll have more information about you and your work in the show notes, but is there anything, you know, would tell us where listeners can find out more about you or maybe what you're working on next?

[01:01:55]>> Well, yeah, you can you can Google my name and I'm sure I'll pop up somewhere.

[01:02:01]I do have a web website and yeah, currently I'm working on a few projects. My my next book that's coming out is actually based upon my career uh treating you know severe psychopathology.

[01:02:22]So it's it's kind of my uh retirement present to myself where I get to reflect upon my career and having specialized in treating you know psychosis and severe trauma and extreme states and reflecting on that in this book.

[01:02:44]>> Wow. Well, we'll look forward to that.

[01:02:47]Well, thank you so much for coming on and it was just been a an honor and a pleasure to be with you today.

[01:02:54]>> Well, you're such a gracious host and we I really enjoyed our conversation.

[01:02:59]Thanks so much.

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