Murdaugh Lawsuit Against Becky Hill💥The Corruption & Shocking Testimony the Overturned the Case

Added: 2026-05-22

[00:00:00]Welcome or welcome back to wants the obsession true crime. You very well may have heard that recently the conviction of Alec Murdo for the murders of his wife Maggie Murdo and his son Paul Murdo. Those two convictions were overturned.

[00:00:17]So many people since this happened have asked me, "Wait, why? What happened?

[00:00:21]What is going on here? Why the heck were these convictions overturned?" So this video is going to explain exactly what happened. and we are going to watch some of the hearing where former court clerk turned book author Becky Hill was questioned in regards to the charges that were eventually leveled against her. So, if you don't know her yet, this is Becky Hill, our lady of the hour. And she was the former court clerk for Judge Newman, who presided over Alec Murdo's trial, where he was charged with two counts of murder for murdering his wife and son and was convicted on those two counts. And also, if you don't know, Watts the Obsession has done a ton of coverage of the Alec Murdoch case and has done deep dives into the entire Murdoch dynasty story. It is actually the second most watched case on this channel. So, if you're interested in learning more about Alec Murdo and the trial and the history of this preeminent family, check out the playlist that is linked in the description.

[00:01:29]On May 13th, 2026, the five member high court of the Supreme Court of South Carolina ruled five to zero that Alec Murdo was completely denied his constitutional right to a fair trial and that's why his convictions were overturned. The justices detailed how Becky Hill systematically pressured the jury panel to reach a fast guilty verdict. She instructed jurors to quote, "watch him closely end quote." when Murdoch took the stand and explicitly told them to not be fooled by the defense team's evidence. The court says that her motive was financial. The court noted that Hill was driven by fame and personal financial gain. She wanted to secure a quick conviction to maximize sales for her self-published tell all book about the trial. The former Colatin County Clerk of Court, Becky Hill, was charged with perjury, obstruction of justice, and two counts of misconduct in the office. She plead guilty to all of those charges and was sentenced to 3 years of probation in 2025.

[00:02:40]The specific details of her charges and convictions include misconduct in the office. Becky Hill was accused and convicted of misusing her public office for personal gain. This included taking approximately $11,000 in improper bonuses and improperly promoting her book about the trial using county time and equipment. And then there's a charge of perjury and obstruction of justice.

[00:03:06]She was convicted of making sealed court evidence photographs. And guys, these were gruesome graphic photographs from the crime scene available to the media.

[00:03:15]and then lying under oath about doing so. And we're going to hear her lie under oath about doing so in this video.

[00:03:22]And then there was the allimportant issue of jury tampering. While she was never criminally charged with jury tampering, the South Carolina Supreme Court determined that she engaged in shocking jury interference during the Alex Murdo 2023 murder trial. The jury misconduct led to Murdo's murder convictions being overturned and he subsequently filed a lawsuit against Hill seeking damages. He sought damages for $600,000 which is the total of dollars and cents that he paid for his legal counsel in the original 2023 trial. Now, although there will likely be a different district attorney in office when this trial begins, the current district attorney and all of the potential candidates who might become district attorney have been questioned by a number of news outlets. And each of them has said that they will absolutely pursue a conviction of these charges in a subsequent trial, which hopefully, as many say, will start in the next year or so. So, that is yet to be seen.

[00:04:30]During this hearing in late 2024, Becky Hill was grilled about her misconduct and the charges she was facing as the appeal was waiting to go up to the South Carolina Supreme Court to determine if Alex Murdo deserves a new trial. Take a listen to this.

[00:04:55]>> Good afternoon, Miss. How are you?

[00:04:57]>> I'm fine. Um, I want to get started. If you would, if you could state your full name for the record and spell it for the court order, please.

[00:05:04]>> My name is Becky Hill. Last name Hill, H I L L.

[00:05:09]>> All right. Um, and, uh, if you would just, uh, give us, you're currently the, uh, clerk of court for Colton County. Is that correct?

[00:05:15]>> That's correct.

[00:05:16]>> Uh, and just very quickly, if you would, what year were you, uh, elected as clerk of court?

[00:05:22]>> At the end of 2020.

[00:05:23]>> At the end of 2020.

[00:05:25]>> Yes. And uh prior to that, did you have any involvement or experience with the uh state judicial system?

[00:05:31]>> I did.

[00:05:31]>> And could you tell the court what that was, please?

[00:05:33]>> I was a South Carolina official court reporter for about 14 years.

[00:05:39]>> All right. And were you uh in being an official court reporter, you would serve in the courtroom, which is Miss Harris is here today. Is that correct? Or what was your >> All right. And was that primarily in the 14th circuit?

[00:05:50]>> It was primarily in the 14th Circuit.

[00:05:52]However, I did travel throughout the state.

[00:05:57]>> Um, did you have any other uh experience in in professional experience prior to becoming a court reporter or a clerk of court?

[00:06:04]>> I was a court reporter uh freelance for two years before that.

[00:06:08]>> Okay. And then any other professional pursuits you've had over the course of your career?

[00:06:13]>> Uh, I was able to be a middle school teacher and I worked for the board of disabilities for a few years as well.

[00:06:20]Um, let me go ahead and just kind of get straight to it. Um, in your uh capacity as clerk of court and in your previous experience being a court reporter, uh, were you familiar with the the rules that apply to court staff as it as it comes to interactions with jurors during the course of a criminal trial or a civil trial for that matter?

[00:06:44]>> Yes.

[00:06:44]>> All right. And could you tell the court uh generally what those rules are as far as as what contact is permissible and what contact is not permissible? this very quickly.

[00:06:55]>> The judge gives the the law and gives the instructions for a jury and uh the attorneys will state their opening argu their opening statements, their closing arguments and basically uh the clerk of court and anyone else.

[00:07:13]Um court reporter, we're there to my understanding would be to make sure that everyone's taken care of. Do you need some Kleenex? Do you need some water?

[00:07:24]Different things like that just to make sure that they're taken care of.

[00:07:27]>> Is it is it common for clerks of court uh to have interaction with jurors during the course of a trial to see to those various logistical needs that you that you just described?

[00:07:36]>> Yes.

[00:07:36]>> And did that happen in the Murdoch case?

[00:07:38]>> It did.

[00:07:39]>> Uh and can you give us example of some of the logistical things that you or other things that you would see to to uh to deal with any needs that the jurors may have? I mean, did you provide them food, coffee, uh, make sure they were comfortable, things like that?

[00:07:54]>> Yes, all of that.

[00:07:55]>> All right. Provide blankets for them if they were cold.

[00:07:59]>> Our courtroom was very cold in Colatin County. Yes.

[00:08:03]>> Um, did you uh provide them with aspirin or Tylenol if they needed? Make sure coffee and snacks were available.

[00:08:09]>> Yes.

[00:08:10]>> Uh, did you take lunch orders for them so that they were fed each day?

[00:08:13]>> Yes.

[00:08:15]Um, at any time did you interact with any juror in an attempt to influence their view of the facts in the state v Murdoch case?

[00:08:28]>> No.

[00:08:29]>> All right. Now, I want to ask you some specifics about that um and some allegations that have been raised. Um, at any time did you tell the jury not to be fooled by evidence presented by Mr. Murdoch's attorneys? I did not.

[00:08:45]>> At any time, did you instruct the jury to watch him closely and look at his actions?

[00:08:51]>> I did not.

[00:08:52]>> At any time, did you instruct the jury or tell the jury to look at his movements?

[00:08:57]>> No.

[00:08:58]>> At any time, as the jury moved to deliberate, did you uh tell the jury uh this shouldn't take long?

[00:09:04]>> No.

[00:09:07]At any time, did you tell the jury uh that the defense case, watch out for the defense case, they're going to try to throw you off or anything along those lines that was meant to influence the jurors against Mr. Murdoch?

[00:09:21]>> No.

[00:09:31]Let me ask you um if you ever made any comment to the jurors uh about um the fact that the defendant was going to testify.

[00:09:42]Did you have a com did you have a conversation in the presence of the jurors prior to the defendant testifying about the fact that he was about to testify?

[00:09:49]>> It wasn't directly related to the jurors. I was talking to Mr. who was our baiff foreman, our baiff um over the jury and I was talking to him about that.

[00:10:01]>> All right. And what did you say?

[00:10:03]>> I told him what I had just come from downstairs telling my uh security and baiff office that Judge Newman had allowed more testimony in regarding the uh financials and that also the defendant had decided that he may testify.

[00:10:21]>> All right. And where were the jurors at the point that that conversation occurred?

[00:10:26]>> There were a few jurors uh standing in line and there were some in the bathroom, I'm sure, because they said they were waiting on jurors to get out of the bathroom. And there were some in the jury room just milling around from what I could see looking down the hallway.

[00:10:42]>> And uh and again, what were what were the what were the words that you said in during that conversation? What were the effect of them >> to Mr. Bill?

[00:10:49]>> Yeah. And what did you say? I told him that the that Judge Newman had was allowing more of the financial evidence in which would prolong the the testimony in the trial a little bit and also that the defendant had decided that he was going to testify.

[00:11:06]>> Did you say anything about this being an important day? Pay attention. We'll get coffee for you. Things like that during >> I I usually give a little pep talk to the jurors. Um, it's it's sometimes hard sitting a long time, but my usual and I do remember saying, "Pay attention. It's a big day today. Whatever you need, let Mr. Bill know or one of the other baiffs and they'll be glad to get it for you."

[00:11:30]>> Did your comments or were your comments in any way phrased in favor of one side or against another side or were they at more of a neutral comment about paying attention?

[00:11:39]>> No, it was not for one side or the other.

[00:11:43]Were you um present when the jury went to the Moselle property uh to to conduct the jury view? I was.

[00:12:13]>> All right. And was Judge Newman there as well?

[00:12:16]>> He was. Okay.

[00:12:18]>> Um during uh the time that you were on the property traveling there, traveling back, did you have any conversation with the jurors where you made any comment about the substance of any testimony or any comment about this merits or the strength of the case?

[00:12:33]>> No. No. Uh did you have a uh quick comment uh to the four lady about the how the property was beautiful and and there were tree tea olive trees there that that bloom and smell good or words to that effect?

[00:12:48]>> I did.

[00:12:49]>> All right. And was there any other conversation uh related that you had that you where you made any comment about the the case or the merits or anything like that?

[00:12:57]>> Oh, no. No.

[00:13:11]During the course of this trial, uh, did you have a baiff employee whose primary job it was to see to the jury and and and their security and to keep them separate from uh from everyone else that was involved in this trial?

[00:13:25]>> I did.

[00:13:25]>> And who was that?

[00:13:26]>> Mr. Bill Pulk.

[00:13:28]>> All right. and he was ultimately the jury coordinator in this particular case.

[00:13:31]>> That's correct.

[00:13:33]>> Um during the course of the uh the deliberations once the jury went back there uh did you have any contact with the juries or uh have any substantive discussion with them?

[00:13:44]>> Not at all.

[00:13:46]>> Did you uh have any discussion with them about logistics about staying in a hotel or anything like that?

[00:13:52]>> I did not.

[00:13:53]Um, did you have any interaction with the jurors or any anything to do with them having smoke breaks or anything like that?

[00:14:00]>> I did not.

[00:14:22]During the uh course of the trial, did you have any discussion or interaction with the jurors about them giving any interviews to the media or or making themselves available to the media? I'm asking during the course of the trial itself.

[00:14:36]>> No, not during the course of the trial.

[00:14:38]After the verdict had been reached and the case was in sentencing, did you have any conversation with any jurors at that time after they had already uh entered their verdict and been individually pulled?

[00:14:49]>> Yes, after the sentencing.

[00:14:50]>> All right. And tell the court what that interaction was at that time.

[00:14:55]>> There were several outlets, news outlets that wanted to um interview the jury as a whole and really wanted to get them up to north to New York. Um, and so I was trying to get a hold of all the jurors to talk about that. That was something we had not prepared for.

[00:15:13]>> Did you at all pressure the jurors to speak or did you just tell them that it was their option to speak or not? And here's the contact information >> there. I did not pressure the jury >> to speak. No.

[00:15:24]>> Did you advise them that it was their decision and their decision alone whether or not they wish to speak to the media?

[00:15:29]>> It was totally their decision.

[00:15:31]>> And did you advise them of that?

[00:15:32]>> Yes. Yes.

[00:15:43]I'm ask ask it again, but I just want to be sure. In any time, did you make any comment to any juror or in the presence of any juror in which you at all tried to influence them in favor of one side or against another?

[00:15:59]>> I did not.

[00:16:01]Did you understand being a longtime court employee and clerk of court that that is outside the boundaries of what is appropriate interactions with the jurors during the course of a trial?

[00:16:12]>> Absolutely.

[00:16:13]>> And did at any time did you violate that rule that you understood?

[00:16:17]>> I did not.

[00:16:18]>> Course indulgence for one moment.

[00:16:42]nothing further at this time. Your honor, please.

[00:16:50]>> Mr. Hartman on crossexamination.

[00:17:05]Miss Hill, we spent six weeks together, didn't we?

[00:17:08]>> We did.

[00:17:09]>> And during those six weeks, uh, you were as helpful to me as you could be.

[00:17:13]Correct.

[00:17:14]>> I was >> accommodated just about every request I made.

[00:17:19]>> Yes, sir.

[00:18:03]Where were we? Oh, yeah. We're old friends.

[00:18:07]and I want to be sure you can be heard.

[00:18:08]Uh that was the microphone that was supposed to uh You're fine where you are. Absolutely fine.

[00:18:15]>> Yes, ma'am. It was a stainless microphone that was obscuring my ability to question a witness.

[00:18:19]>> Yeah. Well, uh what I'm wondering is whether you can be heard without a microphone. Do we need to try to get a microphone up on this podium?

[00:18:29]>> Yeah, that would be good.

[00:18:37]All right.

[00:18:38]>> I don't know who's supposed to hear this other than you, but um I assume they can hear us.

[00:18:44]>> The court reporter, I'm sorry. She's more important, not as important as you guys.

[00:18:48]>> Yeah, I agree.

[00:18:50]>> Um Oh, yeah. We're old friends, right? We spent six weeks together in a very pressure-filled situation. Correct.

[00:19:00]>> It was a long six weeks.

[00:19:02]>> It was a long six weeks. And um during those six weeks, you were helpful to me in a number of different ways. Um accommodating friends that I had that wanted to come watch the trial, for instance. Correct.

[00:19:14]>> That's correct.

[00:19:15]>> You even allowed me to use the private restroom down on the first floor so I didn't have to stand in line with the rest of the people um trying to at breaks. Correct.

[00:19:25]>> Correct.

[00:19:26]>> So, we have no animosity towards each other. You didn't do something to me and I didn't do something to you during that trial. Right.

[00:19:33]>> Absolutely.

[00:19:34]>> Okay. Now, given that, I'm going to ask you some questions today that may indicate to you that I have um some antagonism towards you. Let me disabuse you of that. I'm here doing a job representing my client and you've been around the court system for decades.

[00:19:52]Correct.

[00:19:52]>> Yes, sir.

[00:19:52]>> So, you understand what we're doing here today?

[00:19:54]>> Yes.

[00:19:55]>> Now, let me understand a couple of things. I think and I've read your book one some editions of your book. There's several. We got a bunch of um emails in which you have drafts that you forwarded to your co-author. Correct.

[00:20:13]>> Objection.

[00:20:14]>> Believe I would object to relevance. I believe any drafts she sent to her co-author with the book is beyond the scope of this inquiry here today.

[00:20:22]>> Overru. You may proceed.

[00:20:24]>> Thank you, your honor. And in those drafts, um, you say certain things, um, about the trial, about, um, the process, which you later did not include in the the final version. It's called editing. Is that correct?

[00:20:44]>> I would agree with that.

[00:20:45]>> Okay. Now, let's talk about this book for just a second. It um, when did you first decide you were going to write a book?

[00:20:54]I think a thought was there, a very fleeting thought before the trial.

[00:21:00]>> Did you take any steps before the trial >> or at the initiation of the trial to begin writing this book or working with somebody on this book?

[00:21:09]>> Oh, no, sir.

[00:21:10]>> When did you and your co-author get together?

[00:21:14]>> It was several weeks after the trial.

[00:21:17]>> Okay. Did you talk to anybody about the fact you were going to write a book before the trial?

[00:21:23]There were several uh anchors and several journalists that I did speak with about the possibility of writing a book.

[00:21:34]>> Um did I'm so disorganized. I apologize. Um did do you know did you seek assistance in this trial from other clerks of court?

[00:21:50]>> Yes, sir. I did. And who were they?

[00:21:53]>> Rhonda Mackeline, who is the Barnwell County Clerk of Court, and Renee Elvis from the Ory County Clerk of Court.

[00:22:02]>> And um did they were they there with you the entire six weeks?

[00:22:07]>> No.

[00:22:09]>> I mean, how much how long were they there? How how often were they there?

[00:22:16]Rhonda Mavine was there as often as she could be, probably several times a week.

[00:22:25]Renee Elvis helped me during the jury selection.

[00:22:46]And um did she begin that is Miss Mabe.

[00:22:49]Did she begin working with you prior to jury selection?

[00:22:55]>> Can you repeat that question?

[00:22:56]>> Was she we began jury selection I think on January 23rd. Correct.

[00:23:00]>> Correct.

[00:23:01]>> Was she working with you or consulting with you prior to the 23rd?

[00:23:06]>> No, sir. Did you have any conversation with her about the trial?

[00:23:11]>> Not until she got to the trial on what I can't remember the exact day she came.

[00:23:17]>> Okay. Now, was she a friend of yours?

[00:23:21]>> She was a friend. Yes.

[00:23:22]>> Was >> Well, she is a friend.

[00:23:24]>> Okay.

[00:23:24]>> Yes.

[00:23:25]>> She's done nothing to make you any less a friend.

[00:23:27]>> No, sir. Now, um, did you tell her about the time of the trial that you were going to write a book, that you had thought about and were going to write a book?

[00:23:44]I can't remember exactly.

[00:23:50]I I think we did have a conversation about a book possibly in the future. And did you tell her you're going to write a book because you thought it would make a lot of money?

[00:24:01]>> Oh, no, sir.

[00:24:02]>> You've never said that?

[00:24:03]>> No, sir.

[00:24:04]>> And did you tell her that you were going to write a book to make a bunch of money so you could buy a lake lot and build a house on it?

[00:24:11]>> No, sir.

[00:24:12]>> Okay.

[00:24:13]Now, did you ever tell her uh that you had given a juror a ride home, that you had accompanied Mr. Bill, what's his last name?

[00:24:22]>> Bill Pul.

[00:24:23]>> Right. Did that you and he took a juror home one night? Did you tell her that?

[00:24:30]>> Did you take a juror home one night?

[00:24:32]>> I didn't take a juror home one night.

[00:24:34]>> Did Mr. Poke Mr. Poke and you take a juror home one night?

[00:24:37]>> No, sir. We didn't.

[00:24:38]>> Okay. You never gave a juror ride in a car with Mr. Poker without?

[00:24:42]>> No, sir.

[00:24:42]>> Okay. Um now also during the trial um your your daughter ended up on the venary. Is that right?

[00:24:51]>> She did. and um she was coming up and did you talk to me and and Mr. Waters about putting her on the jury if at all possible?

[00:25:01]>> I'm not sure that we wanted her to be on the jury if at all possible. But um I think the question was um would she make a good juror? And I said she sure she sure would.

[00:25:10]>> Now I don't think we asked you. I think you told us she would make a great jury.

[00:25:14]Did you not?

[00:25:14]>> I remember you asking.

[00:25:16]>> Okay. Okay. I was considering putting your daughter on the jury. Yes, sir.

[00:25:22]>> And who does she work for?

[00:25:23]>> She works for Compass South.

[00:25:25]>> Did she work for the sheriff's department at some point?

[00:25:27]>> No, sir.

[00:25:30]>> Okay.

[00:25:32]Did she work in law enforcement at all?

[00:25:34]>> No, sir.

[00:25:34]>> Okay. Um, now let me ask you this. Um, how many jury rooms were there?

[00:25:44]>> We have two jury rooms in Colin >> in this trial. How many jury rooms did you have? How many?

[00:25:50]>> Okay. So the the entire jury wasn't together at any one time. They were separated in the two rooms.

[00:25:57]>> Yes.

[00:26:00]>> Okay. And um did uh the when they're separated into two uh jury rooms like that, are they next door to each other? Are they down the hall from each other?

[00:26:13]>> They are next door to each other.

[00:26:15]>> Okay. So, but if you close the door to one, >> can they hear what's going on in the other one?

[00:26:21]Some women probably have very good hearing and men too, but I would say probably not.

[00:26:28]>> Okay. Are there restrooms in both of the jury's rooms?

[00:26:30]>> There are.

[00:26:31]>> Okay. Were I mean, are there two restrooms or just one?

[00:26:34]>> There's one restroom in each jury room.

[00:26:37]>> Okay. Were either one of those uh restrooms designated men and women or did everybody use the same one?

[00:26:43]>> They were unisex.

[00:26:44]>> They were unisex. Okay. Now, um, prior to your testimony here today, have you met with, uh, attorney general's office and sled?

[00:26:54]>> I have.

[00:26:55]>> On how many occasions?

[00:27:00]>> I want to say twice.

[00:27:01]>> Okay. And remember when the first time was?

[00:27:06]>> I think the first time was in September.

[00:27:09]>> Okay. And the second time was last week.

[00:27:11]>> Yes, sir.

[00:27:11]>> And that was in Walterboro.

[00:27:14]>> Yes. Right. And you all spent about four or four and a half hours together.

[00:27:19]>> I want to say maybe two hours together.

[00:27:22]>> Okay. And in those two hours, you went over your testimony here today.

[00:27:28]>> They asked me questions.

[00:27:31]>> Did they ever correct your answers or suggest you answer differently?

[00:27:35]>> Oh, no.

[00:27:35]>> No, no. So, you just you just went through what you went through in 20 minutes here. It took two hours to go through when you were with them.

[00:27:44]There were times when I would step out of the room and come back in. Um, but I would say we were there for about two hours.

[00:27:54]>> Now, um, you have described in your book your role as Switzerland. Is that correct?

[00:28:02]>> Correct.

[00:28:03]>> Okay. And that is that you should not be in any way um, opinionated about what's going on in the trial. Is that correct?

[00:28:11]>> That's true. Okay. Um, yet in your book you indicated a number of different points during the trial you had concluded he was guilty. Is that correct?

[00:28:25]>> I think your >> honor, I take this point. I don't know if her conclusions in the book are in any way relevant to what occurred during the trial and whether or not there was any communications with the jurors, which is the sole issue that we're here for today, is whether or not Miss Hill had any extraneous influence on the jurors. Um, and so I think this is uh going a little far. We object to the relevance here.

[00:28:48]>> Let me give you an example. You indicate writing back from Moselle that you and three other people were in a car and you all decided adamantly, I think was the word you used, um, that he was guilty, that he had killed his wife and son. Is that what you put in the book?

[00:29:06]>> I can't remember if I put that in the book, but if you say I did, then I will agree to you. We did have a conversation about what each of us thought >> and all four agreed that he was guilty.

[00:29:17]Correct.

[00:29:18]>> And none of us were jurors.

[00:29:20]>> No. No. Trust me, I know that. Um but you had an abiding conviction um at least by the time of the Moselle visit that he was guilty. And the other people in the car with you were baiffs, were they not?

[00:29:35]>> No. Um who were they? Some were not bailiffs. One was a court reporter, one was our um security officer, head security, and another was a deputy sheriff.

[00:29:48]>> Okay. But the four of y'all wrote out there and based on what and I mean I can you want me to read you how chilled you were and how you felt this that poor Paul and and and Maggie been executed by him on that scene that visiting the scene convinced you that he was a horrible horrible murderer? You want me to read that to you or you will concede that's what you wrote?

[00:30:10]>> I will concede that's what I wrote but if I may I will I would say that that a lot of that is poetic license um in writing a book and in making it sound like that.

[00:30:20]>> Okay. So some of it's poetic license and some of it you just stole you you you pearloined it from that BBC writer.

[00:30:27]Right.

[00:30:28]>> Right. Again I object to uh not only the relevance but the scope uh cross. I would object also under uh rule um 608.

[00:30:37]I don't believe that that's appropriate cross-contamination.

[00:30:40]>> Overruled.

[00:30:41]>> You may continue. Mr. Harput, >> did you steal part of the book?

[00:30:45]>> I did plagiarize Mr. >> That's stealing, isn't it?

[00:30:48]>> It is. And for that, I'm very sorry and I have apologized.

[00:30:52]>> Okay. And that makes it okay.

[00:30:56]>> What I did I did and I apologized for that.

[00:30:59]And part of the book is you say literary license exaggeration.

[00:31:05]>> I wouldn't call it exaggeration.

[00:31:07]>> Okay. Now, let me ask you this. Is Switzerland and this is you're saying this is happening while you're supposed to be Switzerland. you decided the defendant's guilty and um if Makamine says that it's gonna make you more money um if you if he's found guilty, don't you think it's reasonable to assume that you may have cross the line from time to time?

[00:31:30]>> Your honor, object to the form of the question, assuming facts, not an evidence.

[00:31:35]>> Buru, >> can you repeat that question one more time?

[00:31:40]>> Repeat it. Let me just move on to something else. Um let me ask you um you had interactions with some jurors and I believe um in a conference in judges chambers um you indicated that you had seen a post on is it Walter Burl word of mouth >> your honor again I object I think he's delving now into the Facebook inquiry we believe again that that's irrelevant to the inquiry for your honor >> I will allow limited uh He's uh uh uh as I understand it trying to impeach her testimony and uh uh uh uh explore her credibility and uh I think I've already told Mr. Harputin that I don't want a whole trial about the business of Facebook and the egg juror but uh I will allow limited examination on this point.

[00:32:33]You may proceed Mr. Harputin.

[00:32:36]>> Am I over oversimplifying that? You I mean it's in your book. Um, you saw something on Walter Bur Word of Mouth, which appeared to you to be from the ex-husband of one of your jurors. Is that correct? Am I oversimplifying that?

[00:32:51]>> I remember reading one night something on Walter Word of Mouth and when I was in the courtroom on a Monday morning listening to the judge and the attorneys talking about a matter, it sounded like it was relevant to each other.

[00:33:06]>> Okay. And um you became aware somehow that this juror had a restraining order out for her ex-husband.

[00:33:14]>> She told me that herself.

[00:33:16]>> Okay. And um uh tell me how uh it came for her to tell you about that. Where did she tell you?

[00:33:24]She uh was very talkative and when I was instructed by Judge Newman to go and get her from out of the jury room with a a deputy following me, she was talking to me all the way back to the judge's chambers and she mentioned that there were restraining orders out when they had divorced.

[00:33:41]>> So, how did the judge who brought it to the judge's attention about this Walter Bur word of mouth?

[00:33:50]I let the judge know thinking that it could be related.

[00:33:54]>> Okay. And you let the judge know what?

[00:33:57]>> That I had read something on Walter word of mouth.

[00:34:01]>> Okay. And that you knew it was tied to that juror.

[00:34:06]>> I didn't know that it was. I wasn't sure at all.

[00:34:09]>> Who do you think it was tied to?

[00:34:11]>> From what y'all were talking about at the bench? Um, I felt like I needed to let him know just in case it was related. There was something about an ex-husband and an ex-wife and somebody being on the jury.

[00:34:25]>> You didn't tell the judge that you had found what's we call the apology post.

[00:34:30]You didn't tell the judge that.

[00:34:31]>> I didn't call it that. No. You don't remember producing it saying that that producing it to the judge saying this is a post in which the guy that posted it on Friday night says the devil got in him and drinking and he apologized for what he posted. You didn't produce that.

[00:34:49]>> My staff did. One of my staff.

[00:34:50]>> But you gave that to the judge and gave it to us, did you not?

[00:34:54]>> Yes, we did.

[00:34:54]>> As if it were from that juror's ex-husband. Correct.

[00:35:00]>> Correct.

[00:35:01]>> And you know it wasn't. I don't know that, Mr. Hart Bullian. No.

[00:35:07]>> So, and this you did not take that juror out and talk to her before you took her to the judge. Is that >> I I never talked to that juror about stuff like that?

[00:35:18]>> Okay.

[00:35:20]Um, did you ever talk to the four lady of the jury separate from the jury?

[00:35:25]>> I did.

[00:35:26]>> Okay. And tell us, uh, where did that occur?

[00:35:36]When I would go into the jury room and I would speak with the four lady, we would be in like the hallway in the the the two jury rooms were side by side and the opening to the jury room went out into the hallway and we would be surrounded by the jurors at all times. Mr. bail would be very very nearby or another baiff as well when we would speak.

[00:36:02]>> And what did you speak to her about?

[00:36:05]>> There were several instances. One was um there was a juror who needed some feminine products. There was another time when band-aids were needed. There were times when uh Tylenol would be needed. Other than items that were needed by the jury's health object, did you ever discuss, did she ever discuss with you is some issues jurors had emotionally or some issues with dissension in the jury room?

[00:36:34]>> She only told me that there was some loud jurors and it made some of the other jurors a little upset, but other than that, that's >> What did What did you tell her to do? I told her if it got out of hand to write a note to the judge and that she could sign the note and get Mr. Bill to give it to the judge and the judge would handle that for her.

[00:36:55]>> Okay. Now, um you did publish a book after after this trial. Is that correct?

[00:37:04]>> We did.

[00:37:06]>> And you went to New York and took some of the jurors to the Today Show.

[00:37:10]>> The the Today Show did invite us. Yes.

[00:37:12]Now, one of those jurors um that went up there with you the day of the verdict um wore for the first time I can remember wore a suit to to court. Do you remember that?

[00:37:24]>> Your honor, again, I would object to discussion of the jurors wearing a suit or a post-trial trip to uh to the Today Show. I don't believe there's any connection to the inquiry that's that's focused for your honor, and that is whether or not there was any extraneous influence during the course of the trial.

[00:37:38]>> I'm going to connect it, your honor. I believe >> I overrule may continue, Mr. have a >> Did you text, email or communicate on the morning before final arguments were completed that to people that they this was on a Thursday that they probably if they're going to see the trial should come on that Thursday because it would be over by the next day. It would be the jury would not be out very long. Did you ever communicate that email, text or verbally?

[00:38:08]>> I do remember saying that. Yes. And why did you think the jury would not be out very long? Had you communicated with jurors?

[00:38:18]>> I had not communicated with jurors about anything related to this trial at all.

[00:38:24]I've been a court reporter for at least 14 years. I was clerk of court for three. And you just get to where you kind of um see things happen as they progress. And it's a guess. It's a gut feeling. And that's that's all that I meant by that.

[00:38:41]>> Why are you telling this young man who wanted passes for the next day in an email um you know it won't be happening tomorrow? That was your or did you say you didn't say I don't think you just said you better come today if you're coming? Remember doing that?

[00:38:55]>> I don't remember that. Um but you know if if he wanted to come I knew that the trial would be ending shortly as far as testimony. So if he wanted to come, he needed to come.

[00:39:09]>> Why wouldn't the jury have been out a week on a six-w weekek trial?

[00:39:12]>> They could have.

[00:39:13]>> But but you you apparently were telling the press and others that there'd be a quick verdict.

[00:39:20]>> Were you not?

[00:39:21]>> That was a just a gut feeling that I had.

[00:39:24]>> Okay.

[00:39:25]>> And that was my opinion.

[00:39:27]>> Your opin You were right. Jury was out three hours on a six week trial.

[00:39:31]Correct.

[00:39:32]>> That's true.

[00:39:33]>> How much money did you make off that book?

[00:39:42]There was not a whole lot of money made off of the book after paying different things and um paying for some expenses that went along with that. But I want to say roughly around a h 100,000.

[00:39:55]>> Okay. That's not a lot of money.

[00:39:59]>> No, especially when you publish your own book. But that was 100,000 you made >> uh with my co-author.

[00:40:06]>> Okay. In in what period of time? Six months, >> I would say. Six months. Yes.

[00:40:15]>> When was the book published?

[00:40:17]>> August 1st.

[00:40:18]>> Okay. Um trial was over.

[00:40:23]That's uh six months after the trial is over. You've published a book. Correct.

[00:40:28]>> Correct.

[00:40:31]And then I believe you recently stopped selling the book because of the plagiarism you've admitted to. Correct.

[00:40:36]>> Correct.

[00:40:36]>> And so there's no more money.

[00:40:38]>> Correct.

[00:40:40]>> Now um you also indicate in the book that the Murdo had a reputation of um criminality I think is kind of what you put. Did you not?

[00:40:54]>> Well Mr. Mr. Hart Pulley and my grandfather and old man Buster were very close.

[00:41:00]>> Well, were they criminals?

[00:41:03]>> I wouldn't know.

[00:41:04]>> You wouldn't know. But you believed and you published that the the Murd family had run that part of the state and they'd been participated in criminal conduct. Correct.

[00:41:12]>> Your honor, again, I would object to general testimony about the alleged criminality of this family. I I'm not sure how that has any bearing on the focused inquiry before the court. He's asking why about what she said in the book. I'm going to allow it.

[00:41:28]>> Yes, sir. Did you say that in the book that they they were criminals?

[00:41:33]>> In the book, that was more of the the literary ease that we that we take, I think, to make a story a little more interesting for the reader >> by calling people criminals.

[00:41:48]I guess what I'm saying is this. Were they criminals?

[00:41:53]Your honor, again, I object to that particular question.

[00:41:56]>> Oh, rude.

[00:41:57]>> Were they criminals?

[00:41:58]>> I wouldn't know that.

[00:41:59]>> Okay. So, you either made it up or you're lying about it about the reputation of people that can't defend themselves. They're dead.

[00:42:10]You're going to call them criminals. You did that in the book so you could sell a book.

[00:42:13]>> No, I didn't do that to sell a book.

[00:42:15]>> What' you do it for? Made it more readable. You said >> which sells books. Literary ease. Yeah.

[00:42:21]>> What?

[00:42:21]>> Literary.

[00:42:22]>> Literary what?

[00:42:24]>> Uh the literary ease that that you can take with when writing a book.

[00:42:28]>> Literary ease you can take with writing a book. You can make stuff up. You can lie. You can lie about people.

[00:42:34]>> Not with that. I I you know it's I think the public perception uh was one that it was very interesting during this time.

[00:42:43]So you're feeding you're feeding the monster out there that wants to believe bad things about the murders and you'll make stuff up to do it. Let me give you another example during I read your book and I found this somewhat humorous. My co-consel did not uh in describing Mr. myself and Mr. Griffin. In the book you say that um I neutered him. Um we've both been very cons interested in what you meant by that. What you mean by I mean neutering Jim Griffin.

[00:43:10]>> Mr. Hartian. It was a book.

[00:43:13]>> Did you make it up?

[00:43:16]>> I know it was a book. The Bible's a book. I mean, just because it's a book doesn't mean you can lie in it.

[00:43:22]>> It's just a word that was used.

[00:43:24]>> Measure that exchange.

[00:43:26]>> All right. Don't argue with the witness.

[00:43:27]But the witness, uh, Miss Hill, you're instructed to answer his questions.

[00:43:33]You may proceed, Mr. Harput.

[00:43:35]>> So, let me get this straight. The book, and I'll see if I can cut to the chase on this. I could read you chapter after chapter, verse after verse, which is not true.

[00:43:46]Okay. Not true based on my experience of being in a courtroom and not true based on knowing some of the people you describe. You say you say that is a >> second Mr. Putin.

[00:43:57]>> I object. The council is just testifying right now as to his observations about the book.

[00:44:00]>> Question. Mr. Hutton, please.

[00:44:03]>> You've conceded there are things in the books that you don't know to be true.

[00:44:06]Correct.

[00:44:07]>> Correct. Okay. You would concede then that you have lied in the book.

[00:44:13]>> It's only because I wasn't there at the time. I can't I can't um interview my dead grandfather. I can't interview Mr. Buster. There's just things that we can't um interview them on. We can go by what was written in a newspaper and get facts from that >> and and take the inference that uh one of the murders was a pedophile. You could have printed that and they're not here to contradict it. You could have printed anything you wanted and made it up to sell books. That's what this this whole scheme was about. Selling books.

[00:44:45]As you told Ronda Mavine, if he if if him being found guilty would sell more books. Isn't that true?

[00:44:52]>> I'd object to the argumentative nature of the question, the compound question, and assuming facts.

[00:44:56]>> The compound question. Uh if what you're asking is what she told uh Miss Michael gone and asked that, but don't proceed it with >> Yes, your honor. testimony.

[00:45:07]>> Beg the court's indulgence for just a moment.

[00:45:45]write your book about that whose ex-husband um had posted something we now know probably wasn't her ex-husband.

[00:45:56]Um, did she have any other ex-husbands that you found out about?

[00:46:01]>> I have no idea.

[00:46:02]>> Well, you wrote, "We learned later the ex-spouses hadn't seen each other in 14 years, and she had three restraining orders against him." Did Did she have three restraining orders against him?

[00:46:12]>> I don't know. That's what she said.

[00:46:14]>> Okay. Um a couple things.

[00:46:37]>> Did you tell jurors at the end of the trial after President's Day break? President's Day break would have been a Monday. Correct.

[00:46:46]>> Correct.

[00:46:48]>> But before Mr. Murdoch testified, did you tell the jury not to be fooled by the evidence presented by Mr. Murdo's lawyers?

[00:46:55]>> Mr. Hartpulian, I never talked to the jurors about any of the evidence.

[00:46:59]>> The answer would be yes or no. Then you can explain. Did you say that?

[00:47:03]>> No.

[00:47:04]>> Okay. Um, did you all did you ever instruct the jury to watch him closely immediately before he testified, looking at his actions, looking at his movements? Did you ever tell a jury to do that?

[00:47:16]>> No.

[00:47:17]>> Did you ever tell the jury to pay attention to Mr. Murdo's testimony?

[00:47:24]>> To pay attention, not specifically to his testimony. I did tell the jury to pay attention um >> to what? just generally in the hallway when I was speaking.

[00:47:35]>> Not to him.

[00:47:37]>> No, >> just any witness.

[00:47:39]>> Right.

[00:47:40]>> Okay. Um, did you did you ever warn the jurors the defense is about to do their side? This is right before right at the the beginning of the defense case. They are going to say things that will try to confuse you.

[00:48:07]Don't let them confuse you or convince you or throw you off. Did you ever tell the jury that?

[00:48:13]>> No, sir.

[00:48:14]>> Okay. Um, did you ever tell the jury if you get emotional, we want to see your face because that is what they want to see.

[00:48:22]You ever tell them that?

[00:48:23]>> No, sir.

[00:48:24]>> Um, did you ever tell the jury that Mr. Uh, Murdo was about to testify.

[00:48:33]>> I didn't tell the jurors that.

[00:48:43]>> Now, did you tell the jury that if they didn't reach a verdict by 10:00, they were going to have to spend the night?

[00:48:49]>> No, sir. I did not.

[00:48:50]>> Did you ever tell them they were going to have to spend the night at?

[00:48:53]>> No, sir.

[00:48:54]>> Did you ever tell them that they couldn't smoke?

[00:48:56]>> No, sir.

[00:48:59]Okay.

[00:49:04]You got any other books in the works?

[00:49:07]>> No, sir.

[00:49:07]>> I mean, doesn't this make a good book?

[00:49:14]>> Thank you.

[00:49:30]Yes, sir.

[00:49:54]Your honor, there were a few um matters that came up on cross obviously that I'd objected to. Um >> you won't wait here. You you you may reserve your rights to object to the entire line of testimony, but you may offer cross-examination subject to the assertion of your objection about the testimony.

[00:50:13]>> Thank you, your honor.

[00:50:15]Um, one of the things you were asked about is, uh, finding this Facebook post and you brought that to the court's attention after a different issue had already arisen related to a juror. Is that correct?

[00:50:29]>> Correct.

[00:50:30]>> All right. And are you technically capable of manufacturing a Facebook post? Is that anything that you have any capability to do?

[00:50:37]>> I'm not.

[00:50:38]>> All right. And did you uh ask your staff member to go see if she could find this post? I did.

[00:50:44]>> Did you tell her just generally what you recalled reviewing?

[00:50:47]>> Yes.

[00:50:48]>> And did she did you give her any further instruction other than that?

[00:50:52]>> No.

[00:50:52]>> Were you sitting behind her as she was doing this particular search or anything like that or did she eventually report back to you?

[00:50:59]>> She is very very techy and then she reported back to me.

[00:51:04]>> All right. So, you weren't there when she was searching anything like that?

[00:51:06]>> No.

[00:51:07]>> She was like, I couldn't find that post, but I did find this and handed you the Facebook post. Is that correct?

[00:51:12]>> Correct. And you provided that to Judge Newman and ultimately to it was provided to the parties. Is that correct?

[00:51:17]>> Correct. Correct.

[00:51:18]>> All right.

[00:51:22]>> You were asked about conversations uh that you had with the four lady. Did those involve logistical issues and things like that?

[00:51:32]>> The conversations with the four lady was to everything. There was nothing in regarding the defendant and this trial.

[00:51:41]>> All right. So they were logistical issues, not anything to do with the substance of the trial. Is that correct?

[00:51:44]>> Absolutely. Yes.

[00:51:53]>> You were asked about whether or not you had texted some people uh this won't be long. Was that at all in in any way based on any conversation you had with a juror uh as to their internal thinking or anything like that or was that just your your your assessment being an experienced person in the court?

[00:52:10]Absolutely not.

[00:52:11]>> It was based on just your assessments?

[00:52:13]>> Just my assessments? Yes.

[00:52:17]>> Did you ever communicate with the jurors on how long they would be or did any juror ever tell you how long they thought they would be?

[00:52:22]>> I never talked to any jurors about anything like that.

[00:52:27]>> You were asked about your book and and I don't want to get into too much detail about that, but you were asked about some of the assertions that you made in the book and you were asked if these were lies. Were they lies or were they ultimately things that were based on inferences from newspapers and community stories?

[00:52:47]>> Uh, you are leading by this is your witness, Mr. Fine Waters, so please ask a direct question.

[00:52:54]>> Thank you. Was your some of the statements that you were asked about in your book, were they lies or were they based on your inferences from just general community knowledge and things that you had researched and knew?

[00:53:06]>> Still leading, but I'm not going to judge. All right.

[00:53:09]>> Thank you.

[00:53:09]>> He's right about that, Mr. Waters. Just ask a direct question.

[00:53:14]>> Did you lie in your book?

[00:53:16]>> No, I did not.

[00:53:17]>> Thank you.

[00:53:19]>> You were asked about um when you told the jury to pay attention when you asked that question, did you also mention anything about we got coffee for you or things like that?

[00:53:32]>> I knew that Mr. Bill would take care of that and the the jurors knew too. um coffee. We had done some Dunkin Donut runs. We had provided coffee, different other things to help stay awake in the cold courtroom that we were found ourselves in.

[00:53:48]And so I knew anything that they needed, Mr. Bill would see that they got because that's what he did.

[00:53:54]>> At any time, did you have any conversation with any juror in which you tried to influence their decision?

[00:54:00]>> I did not have a conversation with any juror about anything related to this case.

[00:54:11]Nothing.

[00:54:13]>> All right.

[00:54:16]All right. Miss Hill, I want you to turn your attention to a hearing that Judge Newman had uh about the alternate who was uh dismissed.

[00:54:35]uh sometimes called the egg bureau.

[00:54:40]Do you recall that hearing?

[00:54:42]>> Yes, ma'am.

[00:55:05]In the hearing, Judge Newman expressed his uh unhappiness with you for questioning that juror before he questioned her. Do you recall that?

[00:55:15]>> I do remember seeing that.

[00:55:17]>> Well, then let's go back and talk about that juror. uh you on examination in this courtroom, you said that she talked about a lot of things to you, but you didn't uh ask her any questions. But that's not completely accurate, is it?

[00:55:34]>> Yes, ma'am. That is true.

[00:55:35]>> Well, you asked you asked her direct questions uh uh and that came out in the uh hearing that Judge Newman had. You asked her questions before she was even examined by the judge, did you not?

[00:55:51]>> Your honor, I I did not ask her any questions.

[00:56:34]The juror was examined by the judge uh in a hearing. Do you recall that hearing? It's the second hearing on this matter. I do recall that hearing. Yes.

[00:56:45]>> And the court asked you about the the court asked this juror about postings on Facebook, did he not?

[00:57:18]>> Correct.

[00:57:22]>> And >> the juror said she she gave Miss Beck Becky my full access to my Facebook. Uh I put positive po posts on it. I've done that for the past three years. Do you recall her testifying in that regard?

[00:57:41]>> I do remember reading that.

[00:57:43]>> And the judge said, "Has anyone posted anything on Facebook about you?" And the juror answered, "I was not aware of it until Miss Becky told me today." Do you recall that?

[00:57:54]>> I do remember her saying that.

[00:57:56]>> And do you recall the judge saying, "What did she tell me?"

[00:58:01]And the juror said, "She asked me if I had an ex-husband." And I said, "Yeah."

[00:58:06]Did you ask her that? I remember her saying this, your honor, but I did not ask her any of these questions.

[00:58:14]>> And she further says she asked me if I had talked to him about the case or being on jury duty, and I said no. I had questioned her about why she was asking me that. I haven't seen my husband since 2014. Do you recall her testifying to that?

[00:58:30]>> I do remember that. Yes. And with that uh having jarred your memory, do you recall asking her about her husband and his post?

[00:58:40]>> Your honor, I don't remember saying anything about that.

[00:58:43]>> Well, what was the post that you read in the Walter Burough? Um uh >> word of mouth.

[00:58:52]>> Word of mouth. What What was the nature you read that uh did you not?

[00:58:58]>> I did.

[00:58:58]>> What did it say?

[00:59:01]Uh, my memory is a little fuzzy with that, but it was about a e ex-husband who found out that his ex-wife was on a jury and he didn't think that she would be a good juror and it just sounded very similar to what I had heard the judge and the attorneys speaking about.

[00:59:19]>> So, you then went to that juror and questioned her about that, did you not?

[00:59:23]>> I did not, your honor.

[00:59:25]Well, she says in this testimony that she didn't know about the Facebook until Miss Becky told me, was she was that incorrect?

[00:59:34]>> I'm not saying >> some kind of some kind of conversation went between the two of her for her to know about that post. Correct.

[00:59:42]>> That's true. And I'm thinking that it could have been someone um it wasn't me.

[00:59:46]I just know that it's not me that she talked to about that.

[00:59:51]Well, when the judge um the the judge was uh questioning uh the juror about this, uh she also said that she had three restraining orders against him.

[01:00:13]Uh, and she also said, uh, I was very upset after she told me that I have, like I said, I have three restraining orders against him, and I wouldn't have anything to do with him if I didn't have a child with him, but I haven't seen him since 2014. She didn't, y'all didn't discuss that the restraining orders >> on the way from the jury from the uh jury room to the um back chambers where the judge was. She was very um scared.

[01:00:47]She was talking about the the three restraining orders that she had out on her husband at the time that they were divorcing and she was scared that he would be trying to get back in contact with her again.

[01:00:59]>> Well, sure. You know that? Did she tell you that >> she was talking about that on the way to the jury room uh to the chambers with the judge?

[01:01:11]>> And in the court in in in this hearing now that I'm looking at uh that the court is conducting, she said they're asking about this Facebook post and she said Miss Becky said she had went to look for the post again and that it had been deleted. I don't know who she talked to or anything else, but she said apparently, do you recall her saying that?

[01:01:37]>> I do remember her saying that.

[01:01:40]>> And the court then said, "What did she tell you about that?" And the juror said, "It was after you let us go on the last break. I was very upset. This is what you're talking about." Mhm.

[01:01:52]>> And she came down and talked to me and said that apparently I don't know who talked to him, but he he said he was drunk and he removed the post. Do you recall that?

[01:02:04]>> Uh well, she didn't tell me that and I didn't talk with her about that.

[01:02:10]>> Well, you saw that post, the so-called apology post, did you not?

[01:02:15]>> Right. I did.

[01:02:16]>> And you assumed that was a post from her husband, did you not?

[01:02:20]>> Right.

[01:02:22]And then you talked to the juror about that, did you not?

[01:02:26]>> I did not talk with the juror about that.

[01:02:28]>> Well, who did you talk to about it? Did you bring it to the judge's attention?

[01:02:33]>> No, we didn't get a chance to talk to the judge about that.

[01:02:52]The jur the court asked this juror, "Has the clerk discussed anything about the case with anyone on the jury?" The juror said, "Not that I'm aware of." The judge said, "Okay, she was just discussing with juror." She pulled me aside when we went downstairs after the last break. I want to say it was after lunch and we came back and that's when she first told me about it about this what we now know was a not a post from her husband, >> right?

[01:03:21]>> But you assumed it was a post at the time and y'all had a conversation about it. Correct.

[01:03:27]>> Don't just nod answer the question.

[01:03:29]>> Yes, sir. Yes, ma'am. Um, I believe that it was one of my staff that she talked to and but it was not me that she talked to >> and but the juror says and I want to say it was after lunch we came back and that's when she first told me about it.

[01:03:45]She's talking about you.

[01:03:46]>> Correct.

[01:03:48]>> Then we went back into the court and I never even got to sit on the jury. The judge says, "Uh, the judge then stops the questioning and she exits the room." Uh, Mr. Griffin, your honor, I think that satisfies it.

[01:04:06]She hadn't talked to anybody, hadn't expressed an opinion, hadn't made up an opinion. She's got an ex-husband and she has three restraining orders against him. The court said, "Miss Mr. Waters, just obviously we're all invested in this. my main concern. I certainly would love to but not love to but would want to hear you know what one of these individuals said but you know she answered the questions as she did talking about the juror.

[01:04:32]Uh they then uh have a copy about uh this juror and whether this was really her husband that put this post in that you talked to her about and apparently talked with the court about at some point. Am I right?

[01:04:51]>> That's right.

[01:05:10]And then at the end, the judge said that he was uh not too happy with your having talked to the juror before you talked to him. Do you recall the judge saying that?

[01:05:21]>> Yes, ma'am. I do.

[01:05:24]And did you pop right up there and uh say what you're saying now that you never talked to her?

[01:05:30]>> We never talked about it after that. I wasn't in the room when he said that.

[01:06:02]The judge brought up another thing right after sentencing that I want to explore with you briefly.

[01:06:08]>> Okay.

[01:06:09]>> All right.

[01:06:11]One of the big responsibilities of the clerk of court is to take control of the exhibits that are presented in court.

[01:06:17]Isn't that correct?

[01:06:18]>> Yes, ma'am.

[01:06:20]>> And there were sealed exhibits presented in this uh uh case uh that were photographs uh of uh the two deedants uh at Moselle uh when the uh law enforcement authorities first investigated the murders. You recall that? Yes, ma'am.

[01:06:41]>> And those photographs were sealed by the judge, were they not?

[01:06:46]>> Correct.

[01:06:48]>> And when the uh testimony about them was completed, they were under your control as the clerk of court, were they not?

[01:06:56]>> That's correct.

[01:07:00]How was it that those photographs came into public view?

[01:07:09]>> Are you talking about after the >> I'm talking about the the fact he he alluded to it on sentencing uh and said that uh he was frustrated about it and was going to try to look into it. Uh those photographs that were sealed court exhibits under your control found their way into the public media, did they not?

[01:07:35]>> I believe they did. Um and I think what happened it was um someone from the gallery took a picture from a screen that had some of the pictures on it. If I'm remembering correctly, >> did you ever allow anyone from the press to view these sealed exhibits?

[01:07:58]>> No, ma'am.

[01:07:59]>> Did you allow Netflix to ever uh examine the exhibits for trial?

[01:08:05]>> No, ma'am.

[01:08:09]>> How did you handle exhibits? Because you did uh have the press have great access to the exhibits. And you say uh uh several times in your book that you had to stay after to be sure that you interacted with the press about these exhibits. Uh that's true, is it not?

[01:08:26]>> That is true. We we had u Mr. J. Bender.

[01:08:30]And then we had the the um pull photographers and someone from uh maybe the state I believe or the posting courier along with the court reporters, someone from court administration and then someone from the clerk's office every night that would go over the exhibits to make sure everything was correct and in within our domain.

[01:08:56]Were any uh press people ever allowed to view the exhibits, even the sealed exhibits uh that you had on file?

[01:09:07]>> No, ma'am. No, ma'am.

[01:09:11]>> What was the methodology for uh allowing them to uh examine the exhibits?

[01:09:17]How'd you handle that?

[01:09:20]>> I wasn't there a whole lot with when we did this every night. Um, but it's my understanding that the people that were involved with the exhibits and especially the court reporters, um, and there was a certain time frame that they were allowed to take their pictures and everything was, um, all all of the pictures were looked at by the court reporters that were there and the lady from court administration along with someone from my office and Mr. J. vendor to make sure that everything was done correctly.

[01:09:53]>> What I'm asking is how you handled having them the press view these exhibits.

[01:10:01]>> If I remember correctly, the press we had certain designated um photographers and then someone I think from the state of the or the posting career and they were responsible for putting it out to on a stream for the rest of the media to access. Would they do that by photographing the exhibits as they were in your possession after court was over that day?

[01:10:25]>> That is correct.

[01:10:27]>> All right.

[01:10:30]And how did you handle the sealed exhibits in terms of uh their availability when these press people are there photographing exhibits?

[01:10:39]>> They stayed sealed.

[01:10:45]And so you think that the the you're aware of the fact that some of these uh uh on the scene uh photographs of the two deutants found their way into the public press. You're aware of that, are you not?

[01:11:00]>> Yes, ma'am. I am. Yes.

[01:11:01]>> And you contend that they photographed him uh in the courtroom?

[01:11:06]>> That is what I heard.

[01:11:16]All right.

[01:11:23]Finally, I you had indicated about your book that some things that you put in there were you called it literary life.

[01:11:31]It's not literally true. Correct.

[01:11:33]>> Correct.

[01:11:38]Did you ever by any kind of email communication or in any way, shape, or form uh indicate uh or state that uh you wanted a guilty verdict because it would increase the sales of book of the book. Did you ever say that in an email or verbally or in any other way?

[01:12:03]>> No, ma'am. I did not. It didn't matter to me if it was guilty, not guilty, or a mistrial.

[01:12:12]>> Well, in your book, you suggest that uh the guilty verdict was what you wanted, and you were fearful that the uh that a guilty verdict would not be rendered.

[01:12:21]You say that a lot about your feeling about wanting a guilty verdict, do you not?

[01:12:27]>> I do agree that that is said in the book and and part of that is because I think it was a guilty verdict. Um >> well this is way that you were describing a time way before the verdict was rendered uh when you wrote about those things in the book. Isn't that correct?

[01:12:44]>> It is. Yes.

[01:12:46]>> And you even have something where you said your eyes met with jurors and others at Moselle and y'all had an understanding unspoken uh that he was guilty. You said that in the book, did you not? I did say that in the book and I would consider that part of the literary um the word that we just said. Um but that that was there was nothing spoken with a juror at all at Moselle or anywhere else at the courthouse or anywhere. Um, I think that was that's that's part of that poetic license that that we write to make something more apparent.

[01:13:27]But at no time did I read or try to read someone else's eyes. And um, that was just one of those gut feelings that that I wrote in the book.

[01:14:23]You wrote at in the book speaking of a time before the jury verdict was rendered.

[01:14:34]I was conflicted about knowing the Murdoch family and about having so many people watching and listening to me as I read the verdict. I was mostly concerned about Alex being found innocent when I knew in my heart he was guilty. I had this fear that the goodwill the Murdoch had built up in the community would influence the jury. Uh you wrote that, did you not?

[01:14:57]>> Yes, ma'am.

[01:15:00]So, you had those feelings well before the verdict was announced in this case.

[01:15:04]You had some definite opinions and feelings about what the verdict should be, did you not?

[01:15:09]>> I did have a certain way that I felt >> that wasn't any that that's not any poetic license what was said there.

[01:15:15]That's how you felt. Correct.

[01:15:16]>> Correct.

[01:15:17]>> All right.

[01:15:24]Those are my questions. Uh, anything further from from the state, Mr. waters.

[01:15:50]>> Very briefly, your arm.

[01:15:51]>> Yes, sir. Uh you were asked a number of questions about uh the interactions during the uh the inc camera proceedings with the juror who was excluded. Uh were you in the room during the entirety of those interactions or just were brought in here or there as as those occurred?

[01:16:07]>> No, I was only brought in for my asking of my questions from Judge Newman.

[01:16:13]And you were asked a little bit about uh sealed exhibits and uh about Judge Newman's comments at sentencing at the end of trial. And just to clarify, uh those were not um pictures of any sealed exhibits. It was a picture that someone had taken in the gallery that had actually been disclosed. And that's what Judge Newman was talking about to your understanding.

[01:16:34]>> That was my understanding. Yes. And then after the trial, uh there was uh even a post-trial hearing or some discussion about the fact that the some body cam videos had not been sealed and Judge Newman fixed that problem after the trial. Is that correct?

[01:16:49]>> Correct.

[01:16:54]>> Nothing further on. Just a couple questions.

[01:16:57]>> Mr. Harp, >> um let me understand this correctly. you would agree that you did release um all of the exhibits in this case, sealed and unsealed, to the Texas film crew. Is that correct?

[01:17:10]>> No, sir.

[01:17:11]>> No, sir. I did not release the the sealed exhibits.

[01:17:16]>> What about to to um to Netflix? Didn't you indicate to the judge they'd been mistakenly released and you're getting them back >> as an error before when we realized everything? Yes, those two did go. And Netflix had not even uh they said they had not even looked at them.

[01:17:34]>> Did you get them back?

[01:17:35]>> We did get them back. Yes.

[01:17:36]>> And what about a Japanese film crew? Did they get exhibits? The sealed exhibits?

[01:17:40]>> They did not get any sealed ex exhibits.

[01:17:43]>> What about NBC Universal?

[01:17:45]>> No sealed exhibits.

[01:17:48]>> But you do concede that Netflix did get sealed exhibits.

[01:17:51]>> They did it as an error. It wasn't listed.

[01:17:55]>> Well, I would say the court reporter didn't mark it on the on the listing.

[01:18:01]Well, why were you in such Why were you so accommodating to these national documentary uh folks? I mean, is this good for the book? I mean, the more documentaries out there about the Murdo thing, the better your book sales are. I mean, it was there was money in this for you, right?

[01:18:19]Again, it's about the money, right?

[01:18:23]>> What's your question now? Isn't it financially beneficial to you at the time to get more of these photographs out, more publicity, more Netflix, more HBOs, more Japanese? Doesn't that sell books for you? Didn't you see a financial advantage?

[01:18:38]>> Not at all.

[01:18:39]>> Okay. Thank you. No further questions.

[01:18:43]>> Miss Hill, you may step down.

[01:18:56]Let's uh hang on for a moment. Uh Mr. Lewis, >> is she excusing her subpoena?

[01:19:03]>> I just want to make sure she's not excused.

[01:19:04]>> I I I want her to step down. Yes, she's still under subpoena. I I I haven't heard what every what's going to be said. Mr. Harput and still has some things he wants to raise about other witnesses and so forth. So, what I would prefer is that uh she remain with you, Mr. Lewis, uh until we see what else is going to happen. You may step down.