Exclusive: Bishop Barron on the 250th Anniversary of the US & More | EWTN News Special

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[00:00:00]The roots of our country are deeply religious and I would argue the basic principles of the country are inescapably religious.

[00:00:06]>> Is it easy then to correct Bishop to call out to criticize sometimes uh the administration if you're on that commission?

[00:00:13]>> Well, now you've been in the Trump administration. I'm not in the Trump administration. The president could take or leave what we say. Everyone's an expert. Everyone's got a platform.

[00:00:22]>> Everyone's got their hot take. But the pope is not, you know, just an ordinary hack politician, you know, that you can sort of talk in that flippant way to.

[00:00:30]>> When do we look at a conflict where there's killing and there's brutality and say, well, this is for a greater cause that this is just >> Is this war truly the last resort? Has everything been tried?

[00:00:41]>> What's next for Bishop Baron and for Word on Fire?

[00:00:44]>> Well, God knows, I suppose. Uh, but >> do you think about that a lot, Bishop?

[00:00:49]What's next? And I do always thought the best way to continue it would be to >> Bishop Robert Baron. It's a pleasure to see you and thank you so much for doing this interview.

[00:01:01]>> Well, Colin, thank you. Always good to see you.

[00:01:03]>> You know, when we last met, it was around a year ago. We were sitting up at a a height on a platform in St. Peter Square, just days out from the conclave.

[00:01:12]>> And what a year it has been.

[00:01:14]>> What a year. It seems um incredible.

[00:01:17]It's been a year, you know, of of Pope Leo and those days are unforgettable to me and making the rounds and of all the uh networks and the one thing that I kept saying over and over and over again was there'll never be an American pope.

[00:01:29]So my conclusion is don't listen to us.

[00:01:32]>> I put all my money on the other guys.

[00:01:34]>> We don't know what we're talking about would be my recommendation.

[00:01:37]>> But it was an extraordinary time, wasn't it? Now to have our first American pope.

[00:01:40]How does it make you feel? You know, I'm proud and uh I think we were all surprised, but we were delighted. And um you know, a lot of the American bishops and cardinals didn't really know Robert Pos that well, you know, because he'd been out of the country for so long and just in Rome for a couple of years. So, it's a very um interesting ascent to the papacy. It's very unusual and a lot of the bishops didn't really know him. So, we've been getting to know him in the course of this year. But you know, he seems like just a wonderful person, charming person at the human level, but also, you know, really plugged into that Augustinian spirituality and, you know, a man of deep faith obviously. So, you know, >> it's been a good year.

[00:02:16]>> It's historic. And so, we go from the eternal city across the pond and we're sitting here in the nation's capital in Washington DC. And you're in town today, Bishop, for this event, Rededicate 250, this national prayer event. What is it about and what does it aim to achieve?

[00:02:33]Well, it'll be a series of talks and prayers and I think singing and you know festivity all of which is meant to celebrate the connection between religion and our American democracy. uh there's been a tendency I think in the last maybe 75 years to hyper stress separation of of church and state but in fact the roots of our country are deeply religious and I would argue the basic principles of the country are inescapably religious and we're I think here to celebrate that and that's what my brief talk I'm giving a talk and then a prayer toward the end but the talk is really all about that you can't really think about American democracy apart from certain basic religious assumptions so I think today is meant to celebrate that >> that beautiful phrase that's statement that idea this nation under God from Abraham Lincoln and then 90 years later with President Eisenhower one nation under God. Yeah.

[00:03:24]>> What does that mean to you?

[00:03:27]>> It's hugely important. In fact, the opening lines of my talk I'll give in a few hours is I reference Lincoln because it's a very curious thing in the written versions of the Gettysburg address. So that he prepared before giving it the phrase under God is not there. He said that this nation might have a new birth of freedom. Right? But then when he was delivering it, he added spontaneously that this nation under God because the official version written afterwards has that phrase. But people who were there at the, you know, took it down as one nation under God. So Lincoln added it and you say, "Oh, it's just pious decoration." No, no, no. I think it it represented a deep intuition that Lincoln had that you can't really understand our democracy without it. And let me just tell you one thing about under God. I think it's meant to hold off tyranny. See, there's always a tendency in human beings to deify our political leaders. You see in the ancient world like mad. I mean, it happened all the time in the ancient world except in Israel, right? So, the Romans did it, the Persians did it, the the the Babylonians did it. Oh, the the Egyptians, you know, the our rulers are are like gods. Then there's Israel that has is very cleareyed about the corruption of kings and and insists upon the fact that all kings and all rulers are under God, meaning under the judgment and authority of God. Um our founders understood that and that little phrase is meant to hold off that tendency to deify any political establishment, political party, political ruler. We're a nation, yes indeed, but we're under God. Our laws are determined by God. At the end of my talk, I make it's it's a favorite reference for me, and that's Martin Luther King, the letter from the Birmingham City Jail, when he's explaining why he's doing what he's doing, and he says, "Well, look, a an unjust law is no law at all. A just law is grounded in the natural law, which in turn is grounded in the eternal law of God." It's Martin Luther King. And he explicitly references St. Thomas Aquinas when he does it. What could be more American than King writing for the Birmingham City Jail? What could be more traditionally religious than that?

[00:05:39]>> And I think that coming together is what's signaled by we're a nation under God.

[00:05:44]>> What do you think a nation that's not under God would look like?

[00:05:49]>> We know I mean look at the totalitarianisms of the last century. Uh one of their common denominators is a is a rejection of belief in God. What's the first move of tyrants typically? Get rid of religion. She says, "Religion is the great challenge. Uh it's the great check upon tyranny." We know exactly what they look like. They look like societies in which equality even essencees, human rights are taken away. Uh where the leaders are effectively deified. I mean, look at in some of the totalitarian systems of the last century, there was an effective deification of the leadership. So, we know exactly what it looks like and it looks very dangerous indeed. And to play devil's advocate, I know people may be watching this now saying, "Well, we need more of a separation between church and state like has been the argument in my country, Ireland. Here in America, people have more freedom to make their own choices, to identify as they want, to decide their own morals and values." What say you? I say uh I love the first amendment to our constitution which in its opening lines expresses very eloquently the right uh tension if you want the right balance namely congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion. Our founders knew about established religions, right? Where the the government indeed the king of England, the head of the church of England, the Church of England being the established religion. And a lot of people who founded our country were the descendants of those who fled from that situation. They didn't want that. I don't want that. No American wants an established religion. Right? But then there's a second part, the second clause of that. But Congress shall make no law um limiting the free exercise of religion. See, that's an eloquent balance. So there's no officially state sanctioned religion, but that does not mean that religion has no role in public life. On the contrary, because there should be no law restricting the free exercise of religion, doesn't just mean I can privately hold certain convictions or I can whisper them to my fellow believers. No, no. The free exercise of religion in the public square. So the denuding of the public square of any religious dimension that's a it's a gross violation of the free exercise clause. The genius of that first amendment is that the balance is struck.

[00:08:06]See the balance is struck and you know our um judicial system has been kind of trying to find a way to express that balance and and sometimes it goes this way, sometimes that way. There's a correction going on right now which I think is a healthy one where there we were hyperstressing the non-establishment side and we were underststressing the free exercise side.

[00:08:28]>> And I've heard you make the argument before to the point that people who are practicing their faith felt marginalized and you know it was made privatized.

[00:08:36]Your religion and your faith you know practice that at home and your church on a Sunday but don't bring it into the public square. Don't bring it into your place of work.

[00:08:43]>> And that's repugnant to the founding fathers. And it's interesting to me column is that look at American citizens late 18th all the way through the 19th into the 20th century. No one had a problem with that. From the beginning our country has been informed by religious principles and sensibilities and it generously allowed for the free exercise of religion in public places. I think that's worth celebrating.

[00:09:05]>> When we speak of the role of religion in public life, this is an extraordinary time for Catholics here in the United States. In terms of the administration when you have the vice president JD Vance the secretary of state Marco Rubio practicing Catholics very vocal about their faith.

[00:09:19]>> What is the role of Catholics in public life and public office?

[00:09:24]>> I think to bring that moral sensibility into their public um uh decisions, you know. So again, we're not not here to impose Catholicism on anybody. You can't use legal coercion to make people Catholic. So that's all part of, you know, we're against the established religion. But I think to bring a moral and spiritual sensibility into the decisions that you make at these high levels is altogether valid. I've met in the course of my time with this commission a number of people. I I have indeed met some at these highest level, but many at the mid-level, lower levels, lots of Catholics in the present administration. Uh a lot of them know me from my social media work. said they'll they'll come to me and I said to them bring Thomas Aquinus into your public life by which I mean bring these great moral and spiritual principles that indeed undergur our democracy but make them a lively presence in the work that you do. I think that's the role of Catholics in government.

[00:10:22]>> When you were approached by the Trump administration and they invited you to be part of President Trump's religious liberty commission, what was your reaction and why did you decide to say yes? Well, first I was so surprised because I got a call in fact from the USCCCB and they said the the White House is looking for your phone number just like I did. I really did. I said, "What have I done now?

[00:10:44]>> The White What the >> And so I didn't know what it was." So then we found out pretty quickly this is and no, I would say my first reaction was very positive. I thought, "Yeah, they're inviting a Catholic bishop to be a voice around a table when public policy on an issue very central to us bishops. We've been talking about it for 35 years now. They're inviting a Catholic bishop to be a voice around the table in the formulation of this policy.

[00:11:08]Why would I say no?" Now, I know all the familiar objections, but see, to me, the overriding thing was I say no. Now, we're taking a Catholic voice away from that process. Here's another distinction I'd make is people have said to me, uh, well, now you've been in the Trump administration. I'm not in the Trump administration. The Trump administration would be people who are charged with implementing Donald Trump's policies. So like Rubio and Vance and many others.

[00:11:34]I'm on the other side of that process if you want. Not implementing the policy.

[00:11:38]I'm making suggestions regarding the formulation of policy. Right? The president could take or leave what we say, right? he could read our report and say, "No, I don't want that."

[00:11:48]>> I guess today because everything is so hyper polarized in the world, especially in politics here in the US. I know that when you were appointed, there was great praise on one side and people thought this was a great thing to have you on that commission and then you were being criticized. On the other side, people were asking, well, will this affect his ability to speak truth to power?

[00:12:07]>> Why would it need to?

[00:12:08]>> See, my answer is why would it? Because I'm not on the far side of the policy divide. I'm on the near side of it.

[00:12:14]meaning I'm there to help shape policy.

[00:12:17]So I say something, I don't care in a way. If you don't like it, okay, fine.

[00:12:22]I'm just making my contribution. Why would I be hesitant or afraid to bring the Catholic perspective to bear? And I'll say this, the commission was great.

[00:12:30]I spoke my mind in in every setting. No one censored me. No one told me, "Oh, no, you don't say that." And >> is it easy then to correct Bishop, to call out, to criticize sometimes uh the administration if you're on that commission? I did it twice in the past year. Uh both rather publicly. One was not really correction, but back in I think it was November. Um concern was raised about ICE detainees in Chicago having access to sacraments and pastoral care. And so I approached some folks I came to know in um homeland security.

[00:13:02]And I said, you know, I think this is a religious liberty issue. Uh these people have a right to their sacraments and pastoral care. And so, you know, action was taken. And so I I raised my voice.

[00:13:12]Well, that made the front page of the New York Times, you know, member of the president's commission. All right, fine.

[00:13:16]I don't care. And no one questioned me.

[00:13:18]No one said, "Oh, why are you doing that?" The second time, of course, was just very recently when uh the president made, you know, critical remarks about the pope. And I said in an expose that I have deep admiration for the president in regard to religion. He's done wonderful things, but I said I think that was a disrespectful way to talk to the pope.

[00:13:36]>> Well, no one fired me so far.

[00:13:38]>> You sent him the job.

[00:13:40]>> Yeah. And you know again in a way I I'm I I don't care. You know I'm I'm on the near side of that process. I'm making my contribution to it. Uh if they don't like what I'm saying that's that's their prerogative not to act on it. So no I haven't really concerned me and I I've not um you know been hesitant to say what I think is right.

[00:13:58]>> Yeah. What was your reaction when you saw that truth social post where the US president called Poplio the 14th weak on crime on foreign policy. I much prefer his brother. He's MAGA. He gets it. And if if I weren't in the White House, he wouldn't be over there in the Vatican.

[00:14:13]>> It's pretty extraordinary.

[00:14:14]>> Yeah. I thought it was disrespectful.

[00:14:16]And that's the way I I expressed it. You know, look, when it comes to uh credential judgments, can a president disagree with with the pope? Sure. I say in regard to credential judgment, you know, in regard to a particular issue.

[00:14:30]Yeah. President, no. I think you're reading that wrong. And the pope reads it this way. That's fine. But the pope is not, you know, just an ordinary hack politician, you know, that you can sort of talk in that flippant way to. He's the vicer of Christ, the successor of Peter. He's our he's our holy father.

[00:14:46]And I just felt that was disrespectful and I thought was not a constructive, you know, contribution to the conversation.

[00:14:52]>> It's an interesting question. How should Catholics, particularly maybe here in the United States, view the Holy Father when he speaks about nuclear weapons, about immigration, about war, about things that you know, international affairs, politics, policies.

[00:15:08]>> The Pope articulates the the high principles of the spiritual life and the moral life. And he should always be abided by when he does that. When you speak at those high level, the great values that ought to be informing our lives. Now, as Aquinas himself said, when you get closer to the ground and moral issues, things get a bit murkier and then credential judgment often comes in and people of goodwill can have different credential judgments about well, how best to apply these moral principles in this particular case. And I think there are, you know, people can disagree with the pope. If he makes a credential judgment about a particular situation, you say, "Well, holy father, I don't think, you know, it's right for this or that reason." I think that's fine at the level of principle and and the moral values that ought to be informing our life. Sure, the we we abide by what the pope is saying, but I think there can be disagreement at the credential level.

[00:15:58]>> It's all about how it's done as well, isn't it? And the tone and the approach.

[00:16:02]>> Yes. And that was that was my objection to the president's uh post. It it it was more the the tone and the disrespect of it that didn't bother me. Yeah.

[00:16:12]>> Just war. We live in a world today where there are conflicts happening across the globe. The war in Iran, the war in the Holy Land, over in Ukraine, across parts of Africa. And this has been one of the talking points in the Catholic Church recently. When a when is a war justifiable, especially in the context of people praying for victory and so on and so forth. As Catholics, when do we look at a conflict where there's killing and there's brutality and say, "Well, this is for a greater cause. This is for a greater good." So in our Catholic social teaching we believe that this is just >> yeah I think we should study that tradition and I don't agree with those that say oh it's absolutely you know that doesn't apply anymore. I say no a forite they apply. I think we should bring them to bear more uh vigorously you know and it goes back to St. Augustine it's it's clarified further by Aquinas. It comes up through the the papal teaching tradition and these criteria I think are very useful. You know is this war truly the last resort?

[00:17:10]Has everything been tried? Is there a proportion between the uh destruction of the war and the good to be attained? Uh is there right intention on the part of the belligerent? Are they going into this for the right reason? Um and then when it comes to the to the uh waging of the war, is there is there discrimination between combatants, non-combatants? Again, is there proportionality?

[00:17:32]These are all very useful criteria. And I think the church's job is to bring these to consciousness and urge political leaders to apply them. You know, um the Catechism of the Catholic Church says that when it comes to the evaluation and application of the criteria that belongs to the civil authorities and I think there's great wisdom there too.

[00:17:52]You know that in my office in Rochester, Minnesota, I can know the the criteria of just war. Do I know enough about the situation on the ground to make the right judgment in regard to them? Well, the catechism says, "Well, no, that should really be left to the civil authorities." Um, I mean, I can have my own opinion about it, but I think that's a proper balance. So, the church's job is to bring this these criteria to bear and to inform our consciousness about them. Um, and then there are people who are charged with making those determinations.

[00:18:22]>> And these very complex and complicated situations going back for decades, sometimes centuries. And one of the problems is it not that the space where this is discussed now is social media where everything has to fit in a tweet or a short viral video.

[00:18:36]>> Yes, that's a problem and everyone's an expert. Everyone's got a platform.

[00:18:40]>> Everyone's got their hot take, >> right? And that's not helpful because right these are complex matters and uh serious people I mean morally serious people have to be applying these criteria in a way that's um that's appropriate and that is hard right in the in the constant chatter of the social media conversation.

[00:18:58]>> Speaking of complex issues Bishop in the past you've spoken about the right for the United States to protect its borders >> but to do so in a moral and humane way.

[00:19:09]>> Yeah. Uh, how do you strike that balance here in the United States?

[00:19:13]>> Well, there's a good example of this what I just was talking about. So, the great principles, yes, a nation, a sovereign nation has a right to maintain its borders and to enforce his immigration laws. That's basic and Catholic social teaching. Um, and in fact, haven't we seen that a completely open border invites a lot of moral chaos and and a lot of catastrophe happens because of an open border? So the church recognizes the legitimacy of that. At the same time, the church um wants us to welcome the stranger and to be open to those who are in great need and those who are seeking refuge and so on. Okay, those are both true. Right now, what's the right decision to make in the particular situation? Well, in a way, now we're the acquaintance thing.

[00:19:59]We've gone from the higher where things are clearer. We've now come to the ground. What does it look like now in terms of this piece of legislation or this Again, I'm in my office in Rochester, Minnesota. I I I'm not an expert in, you know, immigration policy and I'm not an expert in the the economics that are prevailing on the ground in various situations. I I'm not with ICE, you know, monitoring the situation. I think we have to inform all those who are making those decisions.

[00:20:28]Make sure they have a keen moral sensibility. They know what the principles are, but I think people of goodwill can and obviously do disagree about how they are applied, you know, concretely.

[00:20:41]>> Finally, Bishop Baron, your ministry, Word on Fire, is celebrating 25 years this year, which is an incredible achievement. And recently here in DC, I met Claire Lie, Jimmy Li's daughter. Oh yeah.

[00:20:53]>> Who's imprisoned in Hong Kong and she told me in his cell he's not allowed watch any videos but he is allowed read some books and the ones that he wants to read are from Bishop Baron.

[00:21:02]>> I got married a year ago. My wife is from El Salvador and when I went down there to Central America and I met her father Alberto. We were talking about various people in the church and he said, "Oh, I love listening to Bishop Baron's sermons. The reach that you have and your ministry through social media is incredible. It's global.

[00:21:21]What's next for Bishop Baron and for Word on Fire?

[00:21:25]>> Well, God knows, I suppose. Uh, but uh, you know, I I rejoice in that, you know, when I go around the world, uh, Rome or in London or I'm someplace and I'm always struck by that as people come up to me from all over indeed the English speaking world, but even beyond that, but it's the English language and the internet has has made my work available in a way that, you know, in a previous generation would have been impossible.

[00:21:48]Um, so I rejoice in that. I do see it as an expression of God's providence. I never imagined it 25 years ago when we started on WGN radio in Chicago at 5:15 in the morning. So, no, if you told me that >> morning folks, >> right, it was pretty early. Uh, no, I didn't see any of that coming. And it's because of, you know, I'm marvelous people have have joined me in this in this work. Things coming up. One is I'm very proud about is a a film. You know, we filmed it last summer. It's a film that I wrote the script for a long time ago, pre-COVID and then COVID came and I was and moved to Minnesota and all that, but it's about the Gothic cathedrals and I'm trying to explain why was the world so galvanized by the fire at Notredam and and my answer is they sense something of great spiritual value with with being lost. So, the film is all about the cathedrals and and what they say about the spiritual life. So, we filmed that last summer and I'm happy to say for the first time, Fathom Entertainment is bringing this out into theaters. So, it'll be on I think it's a thousand screens at first. So, very pleased about that. That film's coming out called >> You've got to see those cathedrals on the big screen, right?

[00:22:52]>> That's the thing, >> right? Um and they they film of course beautifully and you know, so I'm on location for a lot of that. It's called Heaven and Stone and Glass. That's coming out. And then we've got a a wonderful thing. I'm proud of a great books series in in um agreement with um Hillsdale College.

[00:23:08]We're bringing out a whole new set of the great books of of Western civilization. And then um something I'm you know really proud of the word on fire religious order. So I'm you know always concerned about my succession like will this go on a legacy and I >> do you think about that a lot bishop?

[00:23:25]You know what's next? And >> I do and I I don't want it simply to end you know with me. So, I go into retirement or whatever and then goodbye and that's the end of word on fire. And I always thought the best way to continue it would be to inspire an order of priests who would have this charism, you know, that I've had. So, we're um we're underway with that, you know. So, I'm um proud and happy about that.

[00:23:47]>> Congratulations on 25 years, Bishop Baron.

[00:23:49]>> Yeah. God bless you. Thank you so much again. All right, Colin. Thanks to you.

[00:23:52]>> That was a good rehearsal. We'll record that now if you press go.