This discourse serves as a necessary exercise in intellectual accountability, demanding that long-held dogmas withstand the pressure of logical and empirical scrutiny. It effectively shifts the conversation from passive belief to an active, rigorous inquiry into the foundations of truth.
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Christianity Is WRONG! Disagree? Call Us! | The DEvangelicals w/ Justin DZ + ThinkerAdded:
We got to do some cooking. So >> some cooking, but we did get to do some humor uh for the recover from religion.
>> Yeah. Yeah, >> I forgot about that. Yeah, you you crushed it. I think you won all the competitions on that one.
>> And cuz I work well under pressure.
>> That was that was a lot of pressure.
>> Well, >> it was a lot of pressure.
>> With your schedule, you have to work well under pressure. You're you're all over the place.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, well, what time is your is your stream schedule for us, though? You're still streaming like like all night?
>> Mhm. 11:00 p.m. till uh 10 a.m. Third shift.
>> That's wild.
>> Yeah.
>> Well, listen, I don't know if we're going to go till 10 uh 10:00 a.m. tomorrow this time slot, but >> I only do it three time four days a week. I'm not I'm not live every day of the week, but I'm so used to working like third shift in the middle of the night. Um because, you know, working on my own company, I stay up in the middle of the night when the kids were going to school, >> right? Like I worked while they slept and then while they were at school, I slept. So, >> yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> I'm just used to it.
>> You've been doing the deconstruction stuff on TikTok now. I think you started a couple months be maybe a year before me probably. Um, >> but like what what type of uh what type of callers should be calling us today?
>> I'm looking to talk to evangelical Christians uh who want to debate the uh validity of Christianity.
um the I'm really interested in understanding how they feel how they figure that they know the the mind of God cuz I was talking to somebody today about the plan of salvation right he asked me why don't I believe in God and I said that I had not been uh convinced and he said a lot of people try to figure out God and I said well I think Christians have uh think that they figured out God right with this plan of salvation Like that's them figuring out the mind of God, right? To say that >> a God has a will to have them live with him in his house for eternity.
>> Mhm.
>> That's them knowing the mind of God. So I want to talk to people who can explain to me how they know the mind of God and how they know that a god even thinks anything about them, >> right?
>> Or that a god said anything. That's what I'm interested in. I'd be curious how if imagine a god spoke to you, no matter which god it is, like how how could you distinguish uh whether it was your imagination or a god, like it it seems like most of the god encounters that I've heard are indistinguishable from like a psychotic episode.
>> Yeah. Yeah, that that's what I'm interested in. But they tend to get upset at me when I ask like clarifying questions around that. So hopefully they don't uh get upset. But I want to know what does a god say and how do you know that a god is saying that? Like what's the difference between um god's divine will and divine authority of a human saying god said.
>> Yeah. And the I had I was thinking about and I know you've ran this and I've seen a couple people run this uh kind of topic before, but I was thinking more about Genesis 3:22 where it says that man has become like one of us knowing good and evil. And it it's interesting because and we don't talk about this too much on my stream, but if we if if Christians are part of that group, right, >> but the Christians can't agree on what good and evil is typically. Yeah. then the passage can't be true that they know what good and evil is. Like how could like they should be in agreement on all these topics, right?
>> Yeah. Do you know there is a guy that says that Genesis 3:22 is rhetorical?
That the guy was he was using irony as a rhetorical device and he was like wink wink man has become like one of us. Wink.
There is a little bit of um like um I would say word games happening in the Hebrew text there and you've probably seen it already. But the interesting thing is like if you've read the a lot of the Babylonian texts, there's like this theme that pervades a lot of these creation stories and like the mythologies and that is the gods have to keep humans under control >> lest they invade God's realm and mess everything up. And so you see a little bit of that in Genesis where like God's afraid the tower is going to reach God's realm. He's like, "No, no, no. We got to nip that in the bud."
>> Um, so it's it's just really interesting >> that like I don't know these narratives or like the being born kind of uh innocent and learning about the world uh through various means.
>> Yeah.
>> That's a super common trope in Babylonian literature, but they have different ideas of how people gained knowledge. Like in Babylonian literature sometimes it's just given by a god like a god just bestowed you know knowledge or the power of evil or the power of good.
>> So do you also think that um the Genesis narrative is about them gaining like god one of the god qualities as well and he gets upset about that.
>> Yeah. So I think it's mimicking God handing down one of the seven divine attributes.
>> And so like if you read the descent of Anana and some of the other texts, there's like these seven divine attributes that are bestowed upon certain individuals to hand out to humans. This seems to be in line with that. But I think more than anything, this story is like, especially chapter three, it's like an ideology trying to explain the deep questions of like, wait, wait, wait. God put us here on this earth, but this earth is trying to kill us. Like, and we have to till the fields out here with a sweat of our brow. What's up with women having a painful child birth and and the baby's dying in birth? What's going on with that? And so, it's a story to say, hey, this is how we got here. This is why things are the way they are.
>> Yeah. And and that makes sense. And and as you're talking, um I'm starting to wonder if the people who wrote this in ancient times had more sense of the people that we talked to on TikTok because >> Oh, yeah.
>> a lot of them cannot see this story as an eological tale. And so they literally say things like women didn't have periods back in in a garden >> or or they didn't urinate because they didn't have bladders or they didn't have intestines so they didn't have to defecate. I mean the what they were eating food so and the I presume like the food in the garden was >> well it said that the they were given trees to eat from right >> somebody said that they didn't have to eat that first off the head the the head was made of dirt and the rest of the body was spiritual so they did not they didn't have to eat like I'm wondering what the religion does to the minds of people today. Because if back then they could write this eeological tale and they had these questions, right, and they could write this story to say, "Hey, here's why." Even though, you know, the stuff doesn't make any sense.
What we hear today from believers um to try to make it make sense, I think it's worse than than anything these ancient writers could have even imagined. Like >> I agree actually. So like the story is uh innocent. And by the way, Thinker and I are just doing some chitchat, but we are waiting for calls to to line up. The number to call is on the screen 7206192288.
Love to hear from you. And but anyways, like >> Oh, there it is.
>> Sounded kind of innocent, right? Like when you read them, you're like, oh, this is, you know, this is a story about how we got here. But the interesting thing is by the time you get to Christianity, they have to paint all these narratives as human evil, needs punished.
>> Yeah. And uh that's where it gets really difficult. That's why I was running last night that Christianity is Stockholm syndrome. And I think that's a perfect description.
>> Yeah. And I we talked to Gosh, I talked to so many people today. Um we saw Stockholm syndrome today on another live that I was on at very high levels. One lady said Luke 17:10 is her favorite uh 17 7-10 is her favorite scripture. And this is the scripture where Jesus is saying call yourself a worthless slave.
And she was like, I love that scripture.
She's like, you know why? Because at the end he was like, don't ask for nothing.
You just doing what you're supposed to do. And I'm like, wow, >> man. I haven't read that in a while. It says, "Who among you would say to your slave who has just come in from plowing or tending the sheep in the field, come here at once and take your place at the table?" Yeah. Jesus is reinforcing the slave master boundaries here.
>> Pretty wild.
>> And she said that's her favorite scripture because he tells her to see herself as a worthless slave and not to expect anything. And I'm like, I've never in my life heard anybody say, "I'm in love with this man cuz he told me I was worthless."
>> That's wild. That that's that is the definition of Stockholm syndrome.
>> Yes.
>> I had I had it coming.
>> I shouldn't have said the thing.
>> I deserved it.
>> Yeah. And that's yeah the very definition of Stockholm. So it makes me wonder what the religion does to the mind because like I don't believe in spirits right but it seems to be some type of consistent personality that comes out.
>> Mhm.
>> Um and I don't know what it is.
something happens when people believe in uh things that are not necessarily true. I don't know. They did some studies a long time ago where they tried to determine if um a religious person grows up and they remain religious, how susceptible are they to like other conspiracy theories? And there was a very high correlation. And it seems to be that once you accept the like the biblical text and it's full of these conspiracies, you know, Satan's out to get you, he's roaming around, you know, the Antichrist is on the way, it just kind of preps you to believe all the other nonsense. Like it it it >> it teaches you to like believe things on faith rather than logic and reason. And when you do when you take that to the real world, oh man, it's terrible.
>> Yeah, I I I would have to agree with that. Um, I think a believer is basically saying, "I don't care about facts. I don't care about logic. Tell me anything. I don't need evidence. I am a believer. I will believe it."
>> That's what I think a believer is basically saying. So, I I can see that that conspiracy theories are easy for them to adopt.
>> What's going on in your Hebrew classes now? Are you still in class?
>> Uh, well, we're getting ready to start fifth semester. Uh, >> yeah. So, I'm waiting on that to start, but I I practice every day. I did really good yesterday in in a call. A guy was we were debating the uh homosexuality verses.
>> Mhm. Mhm.
>> I don't know why they always uh asked me to prove that I read Hebrew when they don't read Hebrew. And >> they don't do it to me. They only do it to you.
>> I know. Like, that is crazy. And then one guy was like, "Call out uh verbs."
If I call the I mean, he said, "Call out the vows, the Hebrew vows. If I call them out, are you gonna know if I'm telling the truth because you don't read Hebrew?
>> No.
Um, what what did he hope to gain from that? Like, did you do you think does he think learning the alphabet was difficult?
>> I I get I think he thought that I had memorized Leviticus 18:22.
>> So, he thought that I was not necessarily reading it. So, I read Genesis 1 down to like Genesis 15 to him, and he was like, "You're you're memorizing that. What are the the Hebrew uh vowels?"
>> Okay.
>> I I mess with those people. And my here's my litmus test. When I get a caller who wants to say the Greek or the Hebrew does this or that, I ask them one simple question. I ask them about a verbal stem or a case in Greek and they they can never answer. My I think my my point is mostly agreed upon by people who learn languages, which is if you haven't even learned how to like conjugate a verb and you don't know how to how to do the language yet, >> they they really hate the uh when I talking to him about mishave um because the blue letter Bible Bible hub and the blue letter Bible got them thinking, you know, that mishave means as one. And I like there is nothing that I can tell them that that's not what that means. But they they really hate that.
>> Well, part of the so one of the initial problems and if if there's Christians watching or atheists watching and you use, you know, blue letter or Bible hub or you've got an interlinear Bible, the one of the big troubles is these free editions. A lot of time the Hebrew word is just u underneath of it is like what the King James says, right? So like and they don't tell you that. So you're led to believe that this is like a literal translation, literal rendering of the Hebrew word, but typically it's actually not. It's some old translation that's in the public domain already. It's actually not very good. So um you still want to get a Hebrew lexicon and a Greek lexicon and go in and do maybe some word work or here's a book my uh my first Hebrew professor uh Dr. Carpenter uh did this with one of his uh professors and it's uh the complete word study dictionary. It's basically a dictionary and it's got both the Brown Driver Briggs information and the Strongs concordance number for people who still think the Strongs is relevant.
And it gives you kind of an overview of how these words are used in the Bible.
It's just real short. This is typically how it's used. It's for like lay people, not for scholars. So, if if you're just a lay person, you're like, "Listen, how does this how does this word usually get used? Just give me the short just give me the the the little bit of information I need. Don't overload me. This will get you there. It's a pretty good reference."
>> Where did you get that from? Uh, is it on Amazon?
>> Yeah. Yeah, >> it should be on Amazon. And um I I got introduced to it because well, my my professor was what's the word I'm looking for? He was shopping it around.
It wasn't published. It was just published. He wanted people to read it and give his give their opinions.
>> Uh, you got a a free one?
>> No, unfortunately. I did not. He wasn't that nice.
>> That's a big book.
>> Yeah, it's it's a thick one. And I asked him, I said, "Listen, how long did it take you to do that?" And he's like, "I I did like I think it was five every single morning I woke up and I did five entries before work. And I did that until I was done. I was like, "Wow, >> I want Man, >> five entries. That look like that might have take taken him a couple of years."
>> Yeah, I'm sure of it. It's huge. Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> All right, y'all. Give us a call. I think we do have some calls in the screening room. Um, go ahead and give us a call. I cannot see that number cuz I'm blind. Jessica, can you read it? Cuz I can't see.
>> Yeah. Uh the number to call friends is 7206192288.
And on this show we we will take non-believers if you have like Bible questions or other questions for thinker and I but we will also limit that like we can only have two in the queue at a time and we we will take the believers uh in priority to the non-believers so that everyone can have some entertainment for the show.
>> Yeah. And so we are looking to talk to people um who either believe in the the Christian God and who can explain to me um one like how do you know a God said anything to to the biblical writers? How do you know that God is talking to you?
>> Um and like what do you use to validate that? Um, and then we're looking to talk to people who are deconstructing and maybe you have a question or a story that you've um questioned and need to talk through. Uh, maybe you were not allowed to question and your hands are shaking just watching this show because you're scared that the devil's going to get you get you get you.
>> Yeah, actually that's a fair point. Like I there's a lot of people that call in where they they want a question, they want answers, and they're like, "Well, I'm afraid because, you know, if I leave, I'm going to get roasted like a marshmallow." I'm like, "Well, is you're allowed to question at at a minimum, right? If God is if your God is real, surely he's strong enough to handle some questioning, right?"
>> I don't know. Like Yahweh is scared of iron chariots.
He might be scared of questions and facts.
>> Yeah. He did not like Job's questions.
He was not a fan of that.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Um in fact, he his retort was pretty cold towards Job given what Job was put through. Like imagine torturing somebody near to death and then when they're questioning about, hey, why are you doing all this? You get you get lippy with them. I'm like, what?
>> He says, who the hell you think you talking to?
>> Yeah. Job is like the height of uh of the Stockholm syndrome, isn't it?
>> Job. Oh, hell yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Like like Yahweh literally says to Job, I I put a nipple in Leviathan's mouth.
He's like, I put a bottle in Leviathan's mouth and stuck it. Like that's what he says to Job.
>> Um so we do have a caller um in the queue. I want to go ahead and bring him on. Um, do I bring them to the host room or host Q? I can't >> you just hit if you the >> talk?
>> Yeah, the host Q. If you hit the talk, it'll it'll bring them up. Yeah.
>> All right. I wanted to make sure I was because it looks a little bit different.
Um, Donovan uh from Nigeria. Donovan, you are on the line. How are you?
>> I'm good. How are you doing?
>> I'm doing good. Um I see your topic that you want to talk about. You are a theist and you said faith isn't absence of logic.
>> Yeah, that would be what I want to speak about.
>> Can you speak up for me just a little bit? Are you having difficulty hear understand him as well or >> I can't really understand what he's saying now.
>> I'm hearing it's night over here so I don't want to >> Oh, okay.
>> speak too loudly.
Okay. It's not that it's not the volume.
It It just sounded like you were too close to the microphone.
>> Oh. Oh. Is Is it better now?
>> Yeah, that's better.
>> Yeah. I'm going to turn my audio up, but go ahead.
>> Okay. Um you said faith is an absent of absence of logic.
>> Yeah. I I think you said something about um faith like um Christians we have faith and then we take the logic out of it and I don't believe that it's true because faith you know in of itself it not it's not basically an just basically what I wanted to speak about >> yeah like so the definition of faith and your Bible is that your faith is the evidence of what you don't see, >> right?
>> Yeah.
>> Uh am I frozen on the screen?
>> Yeah, you did freeze, but we can hear you.
>> Okay. Faith is the evidence of what you don't see. And how is that logical?
How where's the logic in just the definition of if we if we just deal with the definition by itself, >> right? It's difficult to understand.
They said they can't understand you.
>> Are you Are you Do you understand what I'm saying? Like is my English good?
>> No. Yes, I can understand you. Is it's hard for them to hear you?
>> Can Can the phone get closer to your mouth?
>> All right. Is it Is it Is it better or not? Is it better or not? Is it better or not?
>> Like I can hear him clearly. I um I don't know. Like I can hear him.
>> I can hear too.
>> But it's it's probably clearer for us that it is for uh for the audience.
>> Okay.
>> I don't know if we have a sound board for this stream, but we might be able to to turn his volume up if possible.
>> Yeah, I tried to turn him up a little bit. Let's see.
>> I apologize about the sound. I apologize about the sound.
>> Is that better? That got Is that better?
They said it's not the volume that it that he sounding muffled. There we go.
>> That's better.
>> That's better.
>> All right. Can I Can I You're hearing me both of you already.
>> I think if you just talk loud enough and enunciate, most people will be able to get you.
>> All right. All right. So, um you said um that based on the definition of what faith is is the evidence of things not seen and that is illogical.
>> Well, I'm asking to me it's illogical.
And so I'm asking you if you can help me see the logic in that that evidence >> like that just the fact that you believe in something is the evidence of something existing.
>> How is that logical?
>> All right.
All right. Um first of all the Bible says that faith is the substance of things hoped for.
>> Mhm.
>> The evidence of it not seen. Basically faith is hoping for something although you are not physically seeing it in every day of our lives. Even though those who are if those who are Muslims whatever you believe in you might not even be a Christian we hope for things we want things although we are not seeing it yet. For example, I don't know if you guys are working or anything, but I myself I'm working currently, right? And so if you're going for a job interview, right? The fact that you're going there to like okay um to apply for the job hoping you get it.
That of it is faith. But that is faith in the hope that you will get a job. Do you understand? So >> yeah is not just oh not not saying something and just like yeah >> for me >> right like faith is the substance of what you hope for. That's right. But it's your evidence of what you don't see. And and that's the part like hoping for a job is okay, >> right? But you claiming the like you claiming your faith as evidence that you would get that job, that's that's not logical because that could fall through.
That's not evidence.
Like it's just evidence of your hope.
Sorry I the evidence of what you've not seen the office is like okay I think the the problem is you it's a misunderstanding right so it's the evidence of what of >> of things not seen >> it is the evidence exactly >> right but it's not talking about right what you're hoping M >> I'm sorry. No, that's it's not talking about I hope for a house.
>> No, like it's your faith. No, your Do you see your God? Do you see your God?
Can you see your God?
>> No, I can't.
>> You can't. Right. And so your faith is the evidence that your God exists.
That's that's that's a an example of faith, but that's not the only thing you can have in or have it for.
>> But that's what we're talking about.
Hold on. That's what we're talking about.
>> Hold on though. That's Wait, wait, wait.
That's what we're talking about.
>> I'm I'm listening to you.
>> Yeah. That >> Why don't you want to talk about that?
>> We're not saying our God, right?
>> No. No. You saying that because we are not in our God. Yeah. That it's illogical to believe >> in Noic. No, I did not say that. I did not say >> No, I didn't. I did not say that. I said no, hold on. Okay. What did you say?
>> You said wait a minute. You said faith uh is not absence of logic. I said, let's start with the definition of faith. Faith is the evidence of what you don't see. If your your faith is the evidence that your god exists, that is illogical to me. Just because you believe in a god, that's not proof or evidence that that god actually exists.
That's proof of evidence that you believe a god exists, but it's not proof that the god itself exists.
>> All right.
>> That's illogical.
>> All right. Um, show me all right with that with with that statement. Show me evidence that your brain is Show me evidence that your >> I'm sorry. Show you what?
>> Show me evidence. Show me an evidence that your that your consciousness exists. Show me evidence that >> Why would I Why would I do that? Have I posited that? What?
>> Like what?
>> Wait, is she not talking? It's not her talking evidence of being conscious.
>> But also, why are you tell But I'm trying to figure out why you're telling me to do that when I haven't even posited that. You're asking me to prove something to you that I never stated.
>> I'm trying to get some relax. Relax. I'm trying to get somewhere. Right. Because you have not something does not mean that it does not exist. You haven't seen your brain before. The only way you can surely You know I've never seen a brain.
>> You have to split open your head and break it out. What?
>> Why do you think I've never seen a brain before?
>> What you say?
You've never seen your own brain. Not >> but I've seen a brain.
>> I've seen I've seen my brain on scans.
I've seen a brain.
>> All right. All right. All right. So So using your brain on scan is enough evidence that you have a brain. Correct.
taking a picture of the thing is evidence that the thing exists. Is that what you're asking me?
>> All right. So happy no going to probably I I don't I'm not a medical student so I don't know much about um the medical field but um you going to the hospital and then just scanning your brain and then they show you that okay yeah your brain probably um something something something that's evidence for you that yes I do have a brain yes or no >> it's seeing the brain on a uh a scan is evidence that you have a brain. Is that what you're saying?
>> Yes.
>> Yes. Yes. That's your evidence that you have a brain.
>> It's evidence that I have a brain.
That's not my evidence that I have a brain, but it is evidence that there is a brain in my body.
>> Okay. So, what Okay. So, what is your evidence that you have a brain?
The evidence that I have a brain is the fact that I can uh receive messages to my body that uh tells my hands to pick up a pen that tells me when I'm hungry that um like uh allows me to have thoughts and to communicate to you like my brain does things.
>> All right. So, how do you >> trying to get me to say that consciousness He's trying to get me to say content.
>> I think you're right. Donovan, are you are you talking about consciousness or brains? Because this is actually very difficult to follow.
>> No, >> wait. We've left consciousness. Like you said, you um I'm sorry. I don't I don't I don't get your your names, but um the guy you said that you know the fact that she's talking and all is enough that her consciousness is there. Fine. And now we're talking about the brain. Is that clear now?
>> Yeah. But what's the reason?
Yeah. Why Why are we talking about brains? It's not a talking point that we brought up. Is there a point you're trying to prove? Because if you're just trying to say we can't prove we have a brain, like you would just be wrong. We We know that we have brains. Although >> some of them work better than others.
>> I'm not trying to prove that you have a brain.
>> I know we have a brain. We all have brains. But we know we have brains because why? um from you know science um lab experiments what we >> did God tell us from what we he's trying to equate it to faith I'm trying to how are you trying to equate knowing that we have a brain to your faith in your god I'm confused >> this is this is wild relax >> relax is the guy that's talking overinker endlessly >> the fact that you've never seen your brain but you know that you have a brain because the evidence that you're talking, you're walking, you're you're you know eating, you're doing all these things is enough evidence for you to prove that yes, I do have a brain although you've never seen right.
>> He's appealing to inferences. He's just really slow at getting to the point.
>> He's saying you can infer God like you can't see the wind, but you know the wind's there. That's where he's going.
But but the fact that >> Am I wrong?
>> I think I I don't know. I I kind of went into a danger.
>> Um it's like he's taking forever to get to the point. I'm trying.
>> Okay.
>> I have to point. You guys are You guys are not listening to me.
>> I am trying to I'm trying to like So are you trying to say >> explain to me my point?
>> Okay. Like I don't know what your point is. Like honestly like you you went from >> I'm sorry. Like I'm sorry. Like dang.
Can I like it's I'm really trying to work with you. Like we were talking about your faith being evidence that your God exists. Okay. Being evidence, not an inference, right?
>> Uh that your God exists. I don't know what you consider to be evidence, but my statement was just because you believe a god exists or you hope a god exists does not then uh serve as evidence that that is true, right? It serves as evidence that you have a hope, >> but the faith in the god isn't evidence.
>> I'm sorry. I What?
>> I I apologize. I I went far. I apologize that I went far. I see I see the issue.
>> I can't I can't hear what you're saying.
>> I'm very sorry. I'm I'm sorry. I'm I said I'm sorry. I'm very sorry that you know I kind of deviated from the conversation, right? And I I hope you guys accept my apology, right? I really hope you guys accept my apology. Am I forgiving?
You're apologizing for deviating from that point.
>> I I think like the the chat can barely hear you.
>> I apologize.
>> This is a wild call.
>> Yeah, the chat can barely hear you. I don't know that we >> I said I said I apologize.
>> I said I apologize for deleting from the point, right?
>> And I I'm like giving an apology, right?
But I see what the issue is. The issue is you are um okay you there is a misquotation of the Bible because the Bible in Hebrews 11:1 doesn't say that faith is evidence of um things not seen. It says it's a substance of things hoped for the evidence of it not. So the Bible is clear that faith is a hope for something although it is not faith. The Bible did in its definition of faith. He do not see that it is our >> I don't think you know how to read that scripture like >> Yeah. It says faith is the substance of things hoped. Will you stop?
>> Will you stop? Cuz it's already difficult hearing you. Like I need you to stop it. It's difficult hearing you.
The chat can't hear you. Okay. And so you you and I definitely cannot talk at the same time.
>> All right. These Christians do not have any patience or the Holy Spirit.
>> Yeah. The it. Okay. So, it says faith is the substance of things hoped for. Then it says the evidence, right? The you're supposed to read that as two different sentence. Faith is the substance of things hoped for. Faith is the evidence of things not seen. It's just it's a um what is that literary device called? Um what is it? like a uh god dang it. Um I can't think >> paralism.
>> Is it a parallelism? Where is that like um >> the donkey cult thing was supposed to be a parallelism?
>> Yes. That's that's synonymous parallelism. Yeah.
>> Yeah. So this is what how you're supposed to read Hebrews 11:1. Faith is the things to hope for. Faith is the evidence of things not seen. Unless you could tell me what the ev the evidence of things not seen means there separately.
>> Okay. So again you you are trying to give a different to what is this level one and why do I say so? Because >> any reason >> I I use NASB right the NASB says now faith is the certainty of things hoped for a proof of things not seen that is one that is not true >> wait what is the proof >> hold on for a second >> what is what is hold on listen when you say the words a proof of things not seen what is a proof of thing is not seen.
What is >> Can I ask you what is the >> Can you answer that connected?
>> What? What is >> he's not?
>> If I say if I if I come to you Donovan Donovan, if I come to you and I go a proof of things not is what is a proof of things that don't exist? What is >> that's how you're reading it?
>> But that is not the full statement. No.
>> What is though? You need to fill that in though, Donovan.
>> So, Donovan, I just want to make this very clear. Like, she's trying to listen and respond to what you said. Okay?
You're saying a thing, she's listening to it. It's very difficult to hear you.
And she's merely asking for clarification. So, until you answer her question, we can't move forward. We need to know what you meant by the phrase that you used. going on talking more when you haven't clarified your first uh mention is just going to make the conversation impossible. And I'm not going to warn you again to stop talking overinker. If you keep talking over, I'm just going to start muting you whenever she talks. Okay? But I need you to answer a question.
Thank you.
Donovan, I don't when if you say if you walk up to me and you say uh faith is a substant of a proof of things that don't exist.
What is a proof of things that don't exist? Like what do you say?
Can you fill that in for me?
Okay.
Um the Bible does not say a proof of things that don't exist. It says a proof of things that is not seen. It's something that you are not seeing does not mean it's >> what is a proof of things not seen.
>> See it again.
>> What you are hoping for although you've not seen it. That is exactly what it is.
You are hoping for something although you've not seen it. That is that.
>> It says although.
>> Wait, wait. Where did the Where did the word although come in? It says a. It says evidence. There's no although in there. Donovan, you're switching words out. It says evidence, >> right, of things. Hold on, Donovan.
Donovan.
>> It says It says evidence of things not seen. Not although you don't see it.
>> It says evidence. What is that evidence?
What's the evidence? What's the proof?
Again I am trying to explain the full remember it's one statement >> right that you keep changing >> is a substance of things. No you keep asking me a wrong question and I'm trying to tell you what >> oh my god why why you know what they need in church >> statement >> they need uh [ __ ] literacy and grammar in church because they don't know how to read sentences. Yeah, it's an all-time low right now for Christians.
>> Yeah, >> this bad look.
>> Okay, so does Hebrews 11:1 say faith is the evidence of things? Is that what Hebrews 11?
>> It says faith is the substance of things hoped for, comma, the evidence of things not seen. That second line, that sentence that says the evidence of things not seen. What is the evidence of things not seen? Donovan, like we should have like I've been asking this and we should have been past this part. The part that says the evidence of things not seen. My question to you is what is that sentence saying is the evidence of things not seen?
>> The evidence of things not seen is like I have told you it is what you are not seeing currently. Remember, it is >> we're waiting for the answer. It's It's like a one-word answer. It's a Donovan.
It's a one-word answer. I'm going to give you one more chance. I'm going to give you one more chance to answer it.
I'll make you a deal. If you actually answer the question, I won't drop you.
>> I have been answering this question. You guys are looking for an answer that is not there.
>> No, you are scared of the answer.
>> The answer's right there. The answer is faith. That's just how grammar works.
>> That's weird. Okay.
>> Yeah.
>> Well, >> that was great.
>> That went really well.
>> Yeah, >> he he did know the answer, by the way.
He was being purposely obtuse.
>> Yes.
>> They forget how words work the minute they read the Bible >> because he want he's he doesn't want it to be illogical. And saying that faith is the evidence, he knows that that's going to prove disprove what he called in to talk about, >> right? Yeah. For sure. Because the Bible doesn't tell you to think logically about this thing. It doesn't tell you that like you you have to like um consider whether or not it is true. It just says you you need to have faith in the unseen. And like don't even trust the philosophy, right? Colossians says not to trust philosophy because it could take you captive. Lean not on your own understanding. Oh, so we're not supposed to think. Okay.
>> Which is odd because now we got baby field bros everywhere trusting philosophy.
That's crazy, too.
>> Yeah, >> that's the first thing they do.
>> The next caller is Bruno, uh, who's also a Theus. Uh, Bruno says, "I'm a Christian and I believe I've seen the darkness."
>> Wow.
Hello, Bruno.
>> Yeah, that that sounds that sounds pretty fake, doesn't it? The darkness.
>> It sounds fake. Yeah.
>> Yeah. No, I understand that. I completely understand what I mean by that. is I'm not um schizophrenic or you know have a mental health condition or anything like that.
Unfortunately I you know I grew up in Brazil third world country and my family was whether you believe this or not it's the truth. My family was heavily into the occult and it was kind of um how do I say this? When you see things that are just >> make a deal with the devil material, >> you know. Yeah. Um I'm sorry.
>> You make a deal with the devil.
>> Did you not a deal with the devil? No.
We actually believe we were doing something good.
Do you know what spiritualism is?
>> Yeah.
>> So spiritualism basically means, you know, you talk to the dead and things like >> Did some Did someone say no?
>> I said no.
>> We didn't We didn't say no. We said we said we said we know what it is. You don't need to explain it.
>> Oh yeah. So I but what I'm trying to say is when I see saw the darkness is you know this is the darkness that we used to >> help help us out to know what you're talking about. What is the darkness?
>> 100%. So when I'm talking about the darkness is something that I thought was benevolent.
It was, you know, I was spiritist and Oh, so we believe in like, you know, spirits of light. You know what I mean?
>> Oh, someone is.
>> Nope.
>> Is it a god?
>> A demon.
>> Well, I believe they were demons. I mean, after I the things that would happen. Do you know what I mean? So, I'll give you an example.
>> You haven't told us what happened yet.
How could How could we know? I want to know. I want to know how how a being is made of light. Can you can you explain what that means? Because like >> are you saying that there's an entity made of photons?
>> Like it moves at the speed of light?
>> What What does it mean to be a being of light?
What what I mean is so my whole life I've been raised as a spiritist and my whole family is into it. Okay. So in Brazil it's called speedy chismo. So you're a >> long way around the bend to say Christ saved me.
>> No. No. Well, let me tell you. So I didn't believe in all of that. I didn't believe the Bible. I didn't I didn't believe in these things about demons. I mean I just didn't. But >> you did you were a spiritualist and you said you claimed you've seen a demon, >> right?
>> No, no, no, no, no, no. But I didn't But I didn't know what it was.
>> I thought these things were good, right?
But never.
>> So, but you believed in them regardless if you thought they were good or not.
You definitely believed in stuff like that.
>> Oh, yeah. 100%. And if you're sleeping in bed and 3:00 in the morning something kicks you out of bed or your door opens it by itself and >> you thought that was good.
>> No. Well, I thought >> What was it doing for you when you thought it was good?
>> No. Well, first of all, I didn't think it was good. It was that I >> You did say that.
>> You said you thought they were benevolent.
So, what was it doing for you when you thought it was benevolent?
Well, I thought that we were falling the right way. I thought that when we die, we we have good spirits and we roam around sort of thing.
>> You'll never get an answer to that question.
>> I think I think you just don't want to hear what I'm trying to tell you.
>> We're asking you questions.
>> She asked you a question about your story and then you didn't answer it. How do you expect us to follow along if you won't answer clarifying questions?
>> Okay. So, if I thought they were good, yes.
That wasn't her question. Can you ask your question again? Thinker, he wasn't listening. I >> I was asking you, what did the benevolent spirits do for you when they were good?
>> Uhhuh.
>> That made you think they were good.
>> Oh, right.
>> Oh, no. It was just, think about it, right? You you are in this spiritualism.
We we thought that they they were good because they would give you signs. They they they'll speak to you that you you would think that these things are good, >> right? Why Why would you think they're bad if if if >> I'm sorry.
>> So you had these light beings speaking to you?
>> No, I didn't I they didn't speak to me.
>> They asked what did they do for you to >> I asked what did they do for you to for you to think that they were good. You said you >> Oh, why did Oh, no. Oh, okay. Now all of a sudden the spirits the spirits didn't do anything for him. It's it's a friend of him. It's his Canadian girlfriend. I I have a picture of her in my wallet, but you can't meet her.
>> Uh, no. No. I'm sorry. I mean, you're being facitious, man. I'm This is actually very serious. When I say that I believed in it, it's because I thought I was in the right path. I thought there was a, you know, a spiritual realm and we would connect.
with these beings, right? But the thing is I'm not a medium. So how did you connect with these beings when you thought that they were benevolent?
Yes or no?
>> No.
>> No.
>> What I'm trying to tell you is >> Okay, hold on. So you never crazy in my house.
>> Okay. if you say it louder.
>> Like I think what you're trying to tell me is that you never messed with them when they were good, but for some reason they started doing bad stuff to you, kicking you out of bed.
>> Oh, no. No.
And you had to lotion out.
>> Of course.
>> Of course. But if these things were benevolent, >> if these things were benevolent, why would they come to smash my door?
>> No, seriously. Why would they come to my room, smash my door, throw me out of the bed?
>> They threw That's what I'm saying. Like they >> they threw you out the bed, >> but they didn't mess with you. Why they were good, >> dude? They weren't They weren't good because >> you thought they were good.
>> I thought they were good. Yes.
>> Like already showed you the problem in your in your world view. Like you said you thought they were good and when we're asking okay what did they do to demonstrate they were good you're like well they're harming me.
>> You see the the how this doesn't work.
>> No the that's not what I said. I said I thought I was following the right path.
I thought they were good because that's what people believe. Right.
>> That's what what Yeah. People that follow this man. Why are you talking about people when you should be talking about what you believe?
>> What? Why? You should be talking about what you believe. Talk about your experience. Why are you talking to us about somebody else's experience?
>> Well, that I'm trying to tell you my experience. So, um >> I was surrounded by the occult, which >> I think is the occult.
>> Like, are you trying to scare us with the occult?
>> No, man. No. I'm just telling you there's I'm just telling you that there's another world we can't see. Just because you don't see in the material doesn't mean it's not there.
>> Do you understand?
>> Mhm.
>> Because this material this immaterial light being came and threw you out of bed.
>> No, >> that's what you said.
>> That's >> You said it pulled the cars off of you and threw you out of bed.
>> No, no, no. I'm just saying that these things they deceive. In the Bible it says that the devil comes as an angel of light. Do you know how many times the Bible says >> didn't Jesus come to Didn't Jesus come to Paul as an angel of light?
>> And he left Paul blind.
>> No, he didn't.
>> Yes, he did.
>> When did he come as >> No, he didn't.
>> Yes, he did. He blinded him.
>> He didn't come as an angel of light.
Paul, >> is he not the angel of the Lord? Is he the angel of the Lord in the Old Testament? Is he is Jesus in the Old Testament as the angel of the Lord?
>> Yep. That's what Christians believe.
>> Yeah. So Jesus came as an angel.
>> I don't I don't I don't understand your argument.
>> Jesus Did Jesus come Did Jesus come as the morning star as a bright light and blinded Paul?
>> Yeah.
>> Okay.
>> What's the problem with that?
>> You said that demons come as an angel of light. That the devil come as an angel of light. How do you know Jesus wasn't this demon or a demon or a devil that came to Paul?
>> You're saying Okay. So, you're asking me maybe that Paul's it was a demon that was tricking him. Is that what you're saying?
>> Yeah. How? No, I said how do you know that it was not? If you're saying that you've seen these uh these uh demons like you've seen the darkness and the reason why you're calling us today is because you want us to know that the Bible says that the the devil disguises himself as an angel of light. How do you know that Jesus didn't do that? How do you know that Jesus didn't do that to Paul?
>> How do you know that what Paul saw? What I'm asking is how do you know that what Paul claims that he saw wasn't the devil disguising himself as the angel of light?
Well, I mean I the thing is that you can't really know, right? But look at the fruits.
>> Well, if they throw you out of bed, >> I don't think you understand what I mean by when they threw me out of bed. I'm trying to say that something metaphysical, something that was not physical would interact with my world in reality. And I'm not throw something nonphysical do that.
>> Well, that's what I'm saying. You don't know.
There's there's another world you can't see.
>> I'm asking you. How do you How do you know?
>> How do I know what and I just trying to drill down?
>> We're just trying to drill down on how you know anything about what happened >> that.
>> Oh, no. That it was bad. Well, just think about it, right? If you're sleeping at 3:00 in the morning and you want to sleep in peace, something benevolent is not going to shake you in bed and throw you out of it, right?
Why would they come and disrupt my peace?
>> No, think about it. Think about it. If it's an angel of light, do you really think he's going to come and disrupt my peace while I'm trying to sleep? That's other things as well.
>> Jesus like blinded Paul and made him fall off his horse.
>> In fact, Jesus is pretty good at making people fall off of stuff. It sounds like Jesus pushed off your bed.
>> Um, did you No, I'm sorry. What what Jesus did with Paul, it was to try to talk to him because Paul, do you know what Paul did? He blinded him. Paul >> Yes. Why?
>> Paul was Paul was a murderer.
>> He's balevolent.
Um, the thing is honestly guys is that I don't see the the I I don't see how it this is going to work because it doesn't even You already made your mind up.
>> No, like is No, I I want to know how >> Let me ask the question. Wait, let me ask the question.
>> Wait, wait, wait. I want to know.
>> What if you're wrong?
>> Wait, wait.
>> What if you're No, wait. What if you're wrong?
>> Let Let me ask the question. Like, how do you know?
>> Ask the question. I'm trying to figure out like how is it that light >> right can throw you out the bed like how can light engage not a light >> it was first of all it's not a light you keep changing it >> no I seriously what I was trying to say is that in spiritism we believe that there are spirits of light walking around okay I didn't say I saw light throw me off the bed. What I'm trying to say is even though that we had this belief that oh these were spirits of light, their fruits showed me otherwise. They didn't see.
>> So it's light benef, you know, the the belief we had that they were spirits of light, which means, oh, they're good spirits, right? That's what they believe.
And then I found out like, well, these are really not good spirits. Like, >> wait, what did the spirits look like?
Did they What did they look like?
>> Look, I didn't I didn't see that. I I I didn't What I'm saying is is that the things that would happen in my house, there was just no peace there. Do you understand?
>> Did you have a girlfriend there that was always yelling at you cuz you kept telling her about these stories?
>> No.
>> No. You know, what's your name?
>> My name is Thinker. I'm just trying to figure out why there was no peace. For what?
>> No, no, I understand.
>> I'm just trying to figure out why there was no peace in your house.
>> No, no. I understand. I understand.
>> You don't need to know my name.
>> I just told you my name is Thinker.
>> No, no. I just want to ask you one question. Okay.
Can I ask you one question?
What?
>> What if you're wrong?
>> What if I'm not wrong?
>> No, no, no. What if you're wrong?
>> I'm not wrong.
>> Just think about it.
>> No, no, no. Just think about it.
>> That's what I'm trying to figure out.
Like >> about what?
>> Like light beings throwing me out of bed.
>> Can I Can I Can I Well, can I tell you something? I'm just going to be real with you right now.
>> He's trying to do Pascal's wager, but he doesn't know it.
I'm not. Just hear me out. God opposes the power.
>> Can I ask you before you go on preaching? Can I ask you um I just want >> I'm not preaching. I'm not preaching.
I'm just saying I'm sure I just want to figure out what's happening right now.
So, if you could I'm just going to read a couple things off of a list and I want you to tell me if um just give me like a yes or no. Um let's see.
>> Sure. Are you willing to you really want to you really want to do I want to say you really want to dominate the conversation. You don't you don't let the other person talk.
>> What are you talking about dominating?
>> I barely talk. So I'm trying I'm trying to figure out your head before you go on and preach.
>> I'm not preaching.
>> But you're preaching. We don't we don't care. you haven't we've been asking you questions about the spiritual uhism and you just keep talking about lighting >> and then now you're at Pascal Major and he's trying he's trying to give you a um he's trying to go down a list so he can understand so we can get to it quicker okay to what you're trying >> I'm trying to figure out if if we need to drop this call because this is some form of abuse cuz I looked up the symptoms of you're not supposed to use schizophrenia anymore it's kind of out of vogue >> as false beliefs that cannot be changed even when presented with facts known as delusions. Seeing or hearing things that do not exist such as a voice making commands, hallucinations, the belief that others are reading or controlling uh someone's mind. Disorganized thinking and speech including shifting from one thought to the next without a logical connection or speaking in sentences that do not make sense to others. Difficulty speaking and expressing emotion as well as problems with attention, memory, and organization. disorganized or abnormal physical behavior including inappropriately, repetitively or excessively strange actions and a complete sometimes lack of talking or movement. And last is a reduced ability to function normally.
>> So >> I mean it sounds it sounds like >> the you'd self diagnosed on the way in, my man.
So, are you saying that um some sort of wacko?
>> I'm saying maybe uh there's a good reason why we don't take this seriously.
>> No, I understand you don't take it seriously because it's just not your experience, right? You just need it to have your yourself. Unfortunately, I can't I can't make that happen.
>> Why would your experience mean anything to us?
>> Well, >> so I'm sorry. Before you answer your question, I I'll I'll short I'll shortcut it. The reason why your experience means nothing to us >> is because we already know that the Bible is completely false. It doesn't matter what your experience was. The Bible is false. Jesus is dead.
>> But why do you believe it's false?
>> Because we read it.
>> Okay. So, I mean, if it's just a book, right?
If it's just a book, why, you know, it was the first book that Hitler asked to get burned down.
>> Why didn't that book in North Korea? Why if you have that book in North Korea, you get literally promoted the Christian church. He the Third Reich set up their own church. There was a church dedicated to the Third Reich.
>> So you think he was preaching Jesus?
>> Yeah. The Third Reich adopted Christianity as the official religion, >> mate. Mate, I can have a church in my garage. It doesn't mean it's a church.
>> I'm not talking about they were real churches. It was an actual Christian church. But your claim is is silly. He didn't command Bibles to be burned. Are you out of your mind?
>> Uh, I mean, uh, so are you okay? Yes, he did.
>> The Bibles officers, you have a Bible.
>> This is crazy. was a Christian.
>> No. No. All the persecution about it.
Why do you If it's just the book, why do you think there's so much persecution about it? Think about that.
>> There's not. Are you being persecuted right now?
>> Yeah. There's >> Well, um, no. I live in Australia, so no.
>> There's there's not. You're not being persecuted.
>> Like, you're not being persecuted for this book. Nobody is going around snatching your Bibles out of your houses and throwing them away or burning them.
You are not being >> I live in Australia, so no, I don't persecuted for for the Bible.
>> What?
>> Oh, but are you telling me that people are not persecuted for the Bible?
>> Not. No, you're not being persecuted for the Bible.
>> You're not.
>> Oh, so are you are you telling >> are you getting ready to go to Are you getting ready to like go to Africa and be like people in Nigeria are you like >> but not just people in Niger not just people in Nigeria >> I started the seance with some incense.
Can you tell me how to get in connection with these entities? I'm I've been working on it during the call.
>> I mean, seriously, bro, I think you should repent >> from what?
>> Because No, I I mean, what if you're wrong?
>> Because Because the God that loves you is going to burn me alive for all of eternity. That's a crazy contradiction.
>> It's it.
>> Would you burn your child alive?
>> Burning anyone?
>> Would you burn your child alive?
>> But why would God burn all of us?
>> Why do you think Why do you think burn?
>> Cuz he's not benevolent.
>> No, I mean, think about it.
>> He's consider yourself good. No. Well, you think yourself good, right? Like, you're good.
>> You're a good person.
>> What do you think good means?
>> Would you say you're a good person?
>> Yeah. What do you think?
>> I mean, it's subjective, isn't it? It's subjective.
>> You got it. You nailed it. Yeah. That That's why I think I'm a good person.
You think I'm evil.
>> It's It's No. No. But think about it. Is good subjective?
>> Yeah.
Did you bother to read good in the dictionary? It tells you that.
Oh, >> okay. So, >> I'm sorry. Did you think I was going to use a different definition than what the dictionary says?
>> Is rape good or bad?
>> No, it's obviously bad.
>> It's bad.
>> Yeah.
>> Why is it bad?
>> Because it's harmful.
>> But how do you know that?
because it's my opinion.
>> Because of your God.
>> Okay. So, your God causes Bruno. Did you not read Zechariah 14:2, Isaiah 13:16, >> 2 Samuel 12?
>> Uh-huh. God caused rape all the time, man.
>> God doesn't say >> Numbers 31.
>> I mean, didn't he even raped his own child, Israel, didn't >> look Look had a rape. the only >> he did.
>> I'm sorry. Who does he say?
>> God even had his own child, Israel, raped.
>> I mean, listen, the Bible just explicitly says, right, God says, "I will gather all I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to do battle and the city will be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped."
>> He's doing it.
>> Mhm.
>> Merciful God. Very loving. And he he enjoys it. By the way, Deuteronomy 28:63 says he he takes delight in watching these people get punished like this.
>> He says he laughs at their >> I think I don't think he mocks their >> It doesn't say rape. It says what's going to happen. You see >> it says it it says when it says oh you know it's predestined. When when he says he he sees things is because he has forthought. Do you see he's out >> he he explicitly the means.
>> He doesn't mean he call it doesn't mean he causes them to do it.
>> He says I will.
>> I will is a first person statement about what you're doing. I will gather all the nations to go against Jerusalem in battle. Meaning he's bringing the army to go do what armies do which is rape, pillillage, and murder.
>> No. In Isaiah 13 doesn't say go rape them.
In Isaiah 13, hey, I don't want to mute you, but listen. In Isaiah 13, thank you. In Isaiah 13, he says, "I myself have commanded my consecrated ones, have summoned my warriors, my proudly exalted ones, to execute my anger." So the means are his consecrated ones in Isaiah 13.
>> And they are his warriors. And then in uh verse 17 he says see I am stirring up the mess against them. So this is his doing. He he anointed them. He consecrated them. And he says that um let's see verse 16 is it? Yeah he says uh verse 14. Like a gazelle on the run or like sheep with no one to gather them. All will turn back to their own people and all will flee to their own lands. He says, "Whoever is found will be thrust through with a sword.
>> Their infants dashed to pieces before their eyes, their houses plundered, and their wives raped." This is what he's saying. He is he basically hired the mess to do this.
>> Yeah.
>> Right. So, my argument is that he knows what's going to happen. Okay. It's not that he's saying, "Oh, but how?" No, no. I want to say something else.
>> Wait, what does see I am stirring up mean?
do anything other than address what the Bible says.
>> No, no, it's of course what happens in war. Look, I'm not I'm not saying that um I I don't believe that God is saying, "Okay, I'm going to make them rape you."
And I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying is God removes God removes his hedge of protection. It doesn't mean he also causes things doing this.
He quite literally says in verse 17, I am stirring up the means against them.
He says, I picked men who do not care for gold. I picked men who will kill young men and cut babies out of wounds.
That that this is what your God said.
>> Um, look, if you go deep and you actually see what No, I'm just being honest. If only you had read the Bible.
>> If you look at the if you look at the genocide of the Bible, >> the genocide of the Bible who said anything about genocide, >> there's many genocides. Okay? For instance, the >> genocide talking about rap >> uh look, if you go deep in what they did, they would throw their kids in the fire. They'll sacrifice the ball. They were the the degenerates of society.
Who?
>> The Canaanites.
>> The Canaanites.
>> This isn't about the Canaanites. Maybe if you were paying attention, you'd know that. Thinker already told you who this is about. This is the Mes defeating the Babylonians. And the Babylonians didn't do that, >> right? So, what I'm trying to say is is that the Israelite people, they >> Oh, guys, >> what?
>> They can they contaminated >> what >> the thing is this guy does not own a Bible. Mm-m.
>> I do own a Bible, but you're saying something that's not true.
>> You're saying that God literally want them to get raped.
>> You're saying that God made people getting raped.
>> That's what That's what he said. No, >> no, that's not >> They hate God's word. When God speaks, they're like, "We hate this." Jesus said that you don't need bread. You need to depend on every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. And these Christians like, "No, no, no, no. We don't need to we don't need to discuss God's words. We >> um I we we have to discuss.
>> You want to go line upon line. Don't do that."
>> 100%. We need to discuss God's word. But what you're saying is not true. Cuz what you're saying is God is saying, "Okay, you go and rape." No. He's saying something bad is going to is going to happen. Bruno.
>> No. No. No. Bruno. Bruno. Bruno. You mischaracterized what we're saying.
Bruno.
>> Bruno. First of all, you're you're mischaracterizing what we're saying. Not once did we ever say that God verbally commanded these people to do this.
That's [ __ ] There's a hundred ways he can do it. In the Bible, he typically hardens somebody's heart or he sends a spirit to persuade them to do it.
Nobody, we're not saying he literally verbally spoke and said, "Hey, I need you specifically go rape that woman."
>> Do you understand?
Although that's how Christians think that God speaks to them.
>> Yeah.
>> Is that why you think that's what we're saying?
>> No, it's just um I mean you're being cynically. I mean >> no way.
>> No, like we're reading the Bible. Okay.
And this is a prophecy. This is a prophecy from Isaiah. Okay. And in the prophecy, your God says, "I myself have commanded my consecrated ones, have summoned my warriors, my proudly exalted ones to execute my anger." And so the purpose of this prophecy is that your your God is executing revenge on or judgment on Babylon for what Babylon did to Jerusalem, >> right? And he calls he chooses warriors to execute that revenge.
>> And the warriors he chose the hold on.
The warriors he chose were the means.
>> And he said he specifically chose them.
He said he stirred them up.
>> He messed with their free will. Hold on.
He messed with their free will. He he whatever he did, he orchestrated some type of anger or uh need for the means to go up against Babylon. And he said he specifically chose these type of people that does not care about gold or silver. They they they're out for blood.
And these men, >> yeah, >> the these men are, he said, these men are going to stab >> anybody that's found uh uh slipping.
>> They're going to dash babies heads against the rocks, >> rape women, >> rob houses, cut children out of wounds.
These are th this is what your God stirred up and commanded as punishment for Babylon.
Okay. So, um I understand what you're saying, but when I say the forethought, I'm saying that God is describing what sinful nations will do in war, like what they will do to them because he removes his hedge of protection. It's not that he's saying, "I want this."
>> He's never going to address the verse.
Look man, God explicitly says God explicitly says he's causing it.
>> Okay. So why would God contradict himself?
>> I mean the law sexual violence.
>> He didn't uh he didn't contradict himself. So every law is uh is bypassable. God is not following his own law. That law is given to people to follow.
>> God contradicts himself all the time.
>> No.
Yeah.
>> No, he doesn't. What what the thing is that God has foresought. So when he says, >> "You did not abide by my laws. I'm going to remove my hedge of protection." It doesn't mean I'm going to be evil and let all this [ __ ] happen. No. No. It's because I'm removing my hedge of protection from having a hedge of protection around around them anyway from your God.
>> Do you understand?
>> Yeah. But but by the way, Babylon is not Israel. You understand that that's a different nation? Do you think God had a hedge of protection around Babylon?
>> What a wild, >> my friend.
>> It doesn't matter because that's your whole point.
>> That was your whole point. But >> you you heard it here. The new chosen nation, Babylon.
>> Oh. So, okay. So, um, do you know the story of Abraham and Sarah and the Pharaoh?
>> Actually, check this out. Check this out. Jeremiah 51:11.
Sharpen the arrows. spill the quivers.
The Lord has stirred up the spirit of the kings of the Mes because of his purpose concerning Babylon to destroy it. He literally is changing the spirit of the some of the Mes to bring them out to battle the same way he does in uh Joshua 11.
>> My friend, um regardless if it's Israel or Babylon, but now it's pursuant to Babylon. I understand the >> the Babylonians were ruthless.
>> They were evil.
>> They were Do you know why Daniel chose not to >> You're not going to address our point at all.
>> Are you going to address our point? The point is that God says he's causing it.
You're completely lost right now. No one's saying that is unjustified.
>> We're saying that God specifically takes credit for causing it. That's the point.
I don't think you're listening.
>> No, I don't think he causes it.
>> He says he does. says he does.
>> He allows it.
>> No, he does say that.
>> All right. So, Bruno, I'm going to ask you a question, and if you don't answer it, then you're going to get you're going to get dropped. Okay.
>> The question is, >> the question >> in Jeremiah 51:11, when it says, "The Lord has stirred up the spirit of the kings of the Mes." What does that mean?
>> It's the same question Thinker was asking you that you refused to answer from Isaiah 13.
>> That's a direct that's a direct question. So, he stirred them up, right?
So he he he made Yeah, I get it. Yeah, he he probably made them angry so they can do what they did, right?
>> Oh, so he so he caused it he caused him to go to war. Thank you.
>> Yeah, probably did.
>> That's literally what uh Bruno >> got him. Mhm.
Okay. That's the thing is I still believe in the thing about the forethought and the thing is is that the Old Testament which I can give completely credit for. We also need to look at that it was lexonus. It was eye for eye teeth for a teeth. There wasn't >> theology words. They love it.
>> What are you talking about?
>> It's not dude in the Bible.
>> He's he's he's going for justification.
It was okay for God to do it because it was eye for an eye because Babylon did it to Jerusalem. But you know Babylon did it to Jer Hold on. You know that Babylon did it to Jerusalem because according to Jeremiah your God commanded Nebuchadnezzar to do it >> as punishment.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Right.
>> Yeah. And after the mess, God sent Cyrus. Isaiah 45:1, "Thus sayith the Lord, to his anointed, to his Messiah, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have grasped >> to subdue the nations."
>> Let me ask you a question. Let me just ask you a question.
>> Are you going to address what Thinker just said? Thinker said something. I want you to address.
>> I will address it. But I want you to ask me a I wanted you to ask this question.
Okay. Is ISIS, you know, ISIS, is it evil?
>> ISIL. ISIS.
>> ISIS. You know, I said the terrorist group the moral argument now.
>> No, no, no. It's not the moral argument.
I want to know.
>> We got to get off the Bible. We got to get off the Bible.
>> Don't talk about the Bible.
>> No, we're not getting off the Bible.
>> I promise we're not getting off the Bible. I promise. I promise you.
>> Is ISIS evil?
>> I don't know. ISIS.
>> Who?
>> It's the Would you say the people that were over in the Middle East?
>> They rebranded at some point to ISIL. if I remember correctly, and they were, you know, destroying monuments, executing people.
>> The the T word you can't say typically on the internet.
>> Would you would you say would you say that Donald Trump was used by God to end them?
>> No.
>> I mean, wait, wait, wait.
>> They were literally like nearly wiped out before he took office. What a crazy thing.
>> No, no, no, no. He's not He's not a moral man.
>> He's a He's a >> He's not a moral man.
>> Okay. He was He's not a moral man. Would you say that God used him to wipe them out?
>> No.
>> No.
>> I'll say I'll say yes. Would you say that Nebuchadnezzar was >> Let's be clear, Bruno. You You think that God used Trump to wipe out an army, but you won't admit that God used other people in the Bible where he explicitly says he's doing it to wipe out other people.
>> No. Yeah, I do believe in a crazy turnout.
>> No, I believe in it, mate. What I'm trying to say is I don't Nebuchadnezzar was not a moral man, but God still used him.
>> But do you realize that you're you're saying that it is supposed to be eye for an eye? The only reason the only reason your God is going after Babylon is because your God sent Babylon after Jerusalem. Like that's not even eye for I. Like your God caused all of that.
That's the point. He was mad. He broke his covenant first of all with David and said that it would be an everlasting covenant and sent Nebuchadnezzar in there to destroy uh Jerusalem and then decided that he was going to get them back with the meats.
>> Yeah.
>> That's not eye for an eye. Like your your god is just >> stirring up [ __ ] Um, I get what you're saying, but if we go deeper deeper into the I guess the theology, >> we've gone way deeper into the Bible that you you'll never go.
>> Oh, so how deep did you go?
>> But you didn't even know these verses were here. That's why >> No, I did. I just don't remember by heart. But I do remember the events 100%. I >> It's interesting because we actually remember these verses.
>> You think that >> cuz we went deep.
>> Trump did. Trump did good by destroying ISIS. Yes or no?
>> He didn't destroy ISIS. So, is there a relevant question?
>> He did. He obliterated ISIS. I Trump is not a moral man.
>> What scares you more?
>> What scares you more?
>> Trump is not a moral man. I don't I'm going to be honest. I don't think he's a moral man.
>> Hey, cuz I'm trying a moral man.
>> Hello. Is this thing?
>> I'm muted him. Don't worry.
>> I'm trying to What scares you more? Your God condoning rape or you going to hell?
Yeah, that's that's a good question.
>> Um, are you ask Did you mute me? Can I speak?
>> I don't know. Can you >> um God doesn't condone rape.
>> What scares you more? Your God condoning rape or you going to hell? I want to know.
>> Well, going to hell.
>> 100%. and go in hell.
>> Mhm. So, you would be okay with your god condoning rape just so you don't go to hell? Basically, >> um I don't think he condones rape cuz that will go against his charact.
>> Did he Did he Did he stir up the means knowing that the meat would rape women, >> he removes his hedge of protection? It's >> okay. If he removes his hedge of protection, that means he allowed >> Yeah. That means he allowed the mess to rape women in Babylon.
>> Does God allow the can God you know the >> if he rem if Hold on you don't answer question. I'm going to I'm going to call the light beards to come and throw your ass across the room for me right quick.
>> Do do if he removes the hedge of protection.
Okay.
Is that him allowing the Mi's entry?
>> Yeah.
>> Okay. So, >> if God removes if God removes his hedge of protection, then we can be attacked.
Yes.
>> Right. So, if he if he removes his hedge of protection, he allowed entry for the Mi to come in knowing that the Mi would rape women. Then he allowed which means condone women being raped as a divine punishment.
>> Your God does condone that. And so like you are okay with your God condoning that. You're more scared of going to hell. You want to be in heaven with a a god that condones rape for eternity.
>> He doesn't condone rape.
>> We literally just went through this. Men have this Men have this thing called free will.
>> No. No, you don't. No, you don't.
>> Yes, we do.
>> What's the definition of free will?
Will. Look it up. What's the definition of free will?
>> Well, you have free will, you Canadian.
>> What's the definition of free will? I think you're I think you're confused.
What's What's the definition of free will? I don't think you know what it is.
>> What is free will?
Free will is the ability to make a decision without threat, outside influence, or being coerced. You are being coerced in this worldview because God will literally murder you and send you to hell if you make even one mistake without being repentant.
>> That's that's not free will. That's a strict obedience. You're a slave.
>> So, we have free will, right?
>> No, you don't. I just told you you don't. No, we get to justify that.
Justify what? You're saying I'm being coerced.
>> I already told you that free free will is not the same as free choice.
>> So what's the difference?
>> Also, we have free will.
>> The difference is don't >> Well, one one is a choice. You have the ability to make a decision. Free will means there's nothing external uh influencing your decision like somebody forcing you or threatening you.
So you think God is threatening us >> with hell? Yeah.
>> Did you forget that he created hell?
Matthew 25 angels.
>> The Bible says he created >> also for human beings because human beings go there and human beings too.
>> Uh but why does he say he doesn't wish anyone to go there?
and his angels.
>> Sounds like what does that imply?
>> What?
>> No. No.
>> What does that imply?
>> It implies that you haven't read the Bible because if God's all knowing, he knew the day he created it that human beings would go there.
>> So, what's your argument? You're saying that God sent >> can't track it all.
>> What I say is it wasn't just designed for for the devil and his angels because God's all knowing the the the millisecond that he created that lake of fire. He already knew he was sending humans there. He even knew who He knew who was going to go there and how they're going to get there.
>> Mhm.
>> The thing is is that you have free will.
So he has just don't address don't address it at all. Okay.
>> Yeah. I just want to say you don't even have the you don't have free will. the the fear of hell uh in uh entices you or influences you to be okay with a god that condones or allows rape by removing a hedge allowing men to go in and rape women as a divine punishment and and you're okay with that because you're scared of going to hell and that's just proof that you don't have free will but we thank you so much for calling >> that that's you just did that like you just you just did all of that right like you you literally said that your God removed the hedge that your God allowed men to come into Babylon and rape women as a divine punishment. Okay? Allow to allow and accept an immoral thing to uh to happen is condoning. That's what your God did. Okay? We we we've got that. You also are afraid of hell. That's why you asked us, "What if you're wrong?" So you said that you were more afraid of going to hell than you are of your your God condoning rape. You already answered that question. And so because you are afraid of going to hell and that your your God is saying, "If you don't do what I say, I'm going to throw you in a lake of fire." You go, "Okay, God, I I just accept and justify everything you do." And then bam, you go into eternal life. That removes your free will. Like you don't you don't really have free will, but the free will that you think you have that removes it because your fear will allow your God to do whatever.
But we we do have other callers and we got >> I dropped him.
>> Oh, okay.
>> Damn, Jesse, you could have told me. I'm sitting here talking to myself.
>> No, you you're you're popping off. Go get it.
We We have two theist I think even two Christians in the queue. Kyle and Jaden.
Which one you want?
>> Uh, let's see.
The one that says there's a lot of mocking God.
>> Uh, Kyle, >> that was my first choice.
All right, perfect. I'll bring up Kyle.
>> Hey, I'm here.
>> Hey, Cal.
>> Can you Can you hear me?
>> Yeah.
>> Hey, how y'all doing?
>> Good. How are you?
>> I'm pretty good. I'm pretty good.
>> Kyle, can you explain your problem?
>> I never Yeah, I never done this before.
So, uh, you guys will have to take the lead on that.
>> Well, you said that we're mocking God.
Is it We're mocking God. You want to give us the truth?
>> Well, I mean, I already know Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. I mean, there's a lot of things being referred to the Old Testament here, but no one's talking about Jesus.
>> How do you know that? Because I've been saved.
>> I've had an experience. You know that Jesus is is the truth.
>> What kind of experience with Jesus?
>> What kind?
>> Well, uh, it was the moment I forgave somebody that really didn't deserve any forgiveness at all.
>> That's a moment. That's a moment. Okay.
I forgave somebody >> and the spirit is so weak with these people fell on me.
>> Experience and redeem and redeem me from everything. Redeem me from from addiction. Redeem me from lust in a in a moment. So that's how I know God is real.
>> So does hypnotism.
>> Oh, hypnotism only works for for a season. I mean, shoot, I even tried to be hypnotized from cigarettes and that didn't work.
>> There you go.
>> That way.
>> Yeah. The power of persuasion.
>> So Jesus came down. So are you you're claiming some supernatural ability, right? Like this is the thing.
>> No, no, no. Not not not from myself. Not from myself. from God cuz I wasn't able to do it.
>> Yeah. I'm going tell you why >> fixes alcohol but he won't fix bone cancer and babies >> right also. But also Jesus is like the the shortcut to stuff, >> right? Like don't do the hard work.
>> Jesus will do it for you. Like skip all of the uh the right uh ext the studying.
Jesus going to get you a A. All you got to do is pray.
Jesus will take the D- rubs away.
There's that's what you're posit like you you're literally No, it requires it requires it requires talk while Justin was talking.
>> Oh, sorry. Sorry.
>> Can Jesus give you a short shortcut to like not talk while women are talking?
>> Like this is the thing that I noticed about believers and and this claim of supernatural or this experience that y'all have with this God. Y'all skip y'all want to skip the hard work. Do you know how hard it is to change your habits when you uh have an addiction?
And and I know because I was I was addicted. I I was addicted to >> um Can you >> stop doing that?
>> So, Kyle, I just want to let you know like when when you No, it's okay. when you uh do like the active listening sounds, it works maybe in person, but on the phone calls, it makes it difficult because the volumes are all weird. So, it's helpful not to not to do that if you could refrain from it.
>> Also, I'm a diver and like I really wish that you would like that throws me off.
Okay. Um, but I was had an addiction right to uh dugs and I'm talking a stronger Dug not uh ganja or anything like that and it literally um like the the work that I had to do right to change my habits to fight the uh urges going through withdrawals like none of that was supernatural. And then the crazy thing is is that I was a believer when I went uh through uh through this time period. And I did uh believe that Jesus helped me through that, right? I I I prayed and I threw it down the toilet. I was like, "Take the taste out of my mouth." But I had to do the work. It was nothing supernatural. I had to change my friends. I had to uh fill my time um you know with other things to do. I had to learn how to breathe through, you know, the urges and um like it there was nothing supernatural. And I don't think that positing that Jesus can take away uh an addiction at the drop of a hat. I think that's some d that's dangerous rhetoric, right? I don't think anybody should be should be claiming that. That's very uh dangerous. Um and no, it it was not that. It was um it wasn't anything that strong. But um I uh also I think like this whole Jesus gave me the ability to forgive like there can What are you doing?
>> What are you doing? That was the wind of God.
>> Can I talk now?
>> Like were you even listening?
>> No. No. It was my decision. It It was my decision. It was a surrender.
He wasn't listening. Like this is the like I wish Jesus would give y'all some super uh shortcut to respect of women.
>> Like like I don't know that Jesus doesn't like women so he doesn't supernaturally help religious men respect women.
>> Why doesn't Jesus love women?
>> Oh no. He's not read the Bible.
You've ever read Timothy my man?
Does he call a woman a dog?
>> What do you mean? If uh if somebody's dead in their sin and they're just going around having sex, you know, not not the pure way. I mean, >> why do you just assume that because she's a woman, she was going around having sex.
>> That's crazy.
>> I'm not assuming. That's what it is.
>> Yes, you are assuming. Or did you take a supernatural shortcut with the with that story, too? Like this is why this is why supernatural shortcuts don't work cuz you don't know what you're talking about.
>> I mean look, no readings. You did. I had to uh Yeah, let's go to it. 1 Timothy.
What?
>> No, it's in Mark 7.
>> Oh, I thought you >> referring to You want to do Mark or Matthew for this one?
>> Uh, actually Mark because >> Okay, Mark's good.
>> Mhm.
>> Oh, he's got a Bible. I hear pages.
I bet they brand new.
>> Yeah.
What version is it?
>> Uh the New King James.
>> Yeah. We're going to be in it for a ride, aren't we?
>> Yeah.
>> Go ahead. Go ahead and read it for us.
Read verse 24.
>> Well, it doesn't really do you any >> Well, it really doesn't do you any favors just reading verse by verse. You kind of want to read the whole chapter.
We we're we want to read we want to read this interaction with Jesus and this woman. That's the whole point that's being made here.
>> I mean read the whole chapter so there's a full context.
>> Just read just read verse don't have anything to do with that.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Just read like y'all was talking about the part that uh that he said he was trying to redeem Babylon and that was the point of >> literally said that he redeemed Babylon.
Yeah. Go, go, go back to the >> God was trying to start in the New Testament and see these guys lost.
>> You're right. He's not cracked up by He just took the plastic off of it today.
>> He's talking about Isaiah 13. He said we skipped over the part where where the God was trying to redeem Babylon. Like what?
>> We're in Mark. So they could so they could be healed. That's what it said a couple of you guys were talking.
>> That's not in That's not in the Bible.
Read Mark 7.
>> Wow.
>> Mark 7. What? Re read Mark 7 26-29.
That's what she's talking about.
Therefore, he rose and went to the region of terror in Saddon. And he entered a house and wanted no one to know it.
>> But he could not be hidden. For a woman whose young daughter had a unclean spirit heard about him, and she came and fell at his feet. A woman was a Greek and a sorrowful season by birth, and she kept asking him to cast the demon out of her daughter.
But Jesus said to her, "Let the children be filled first, for it is not good to take a children's bread and throw it to the little dogs." And she answered and said to him, "Yes, Lord. Yet even the little dogs under the table eat from the children's crumbs." And he said to her, "For this saying, go your way. The demon has gone out of your daughter."
>> Where does it say she was? Where does it say she was bumping and grinding?
>> Found the demon gone out and her daughter laying on the bed.
>> Where does it say that she was out having a lot of sex? Where does it say this woman that he called a dog was out having a lot of sex?
>> Where does it say that she was a [ __ ] I'll bet he's confusing this woman with the women at the wellm.
>> Mhm. Yeah. You literally said, "Well, if she's out having a lot of sex, of course he's going to call her a dog."
>> I mean, what what is your problem with the scripture that was just read?
>> Did you not hear?
>> This is the problem with super with shortcuts. I swear you literally asked me, "Why does uh Jesus not like women?"
Right? You said, "Where does Jesus not like women?" And I said, "Oh my gosh."
Hello. I know you hear me talking to the little dog.
>> Do you hear me talking?
>> No. He got Jesus but blood in his ears.
>> Like goodness gracious.
>> I literally You literally asked why does Jesus not like women? I said he literally called a woman a dog. And your response was well if she's out having sex and sleeping around of course he would call her a dog. Do you remember that? And I said, "Why do you assume that just because she's a woman that she was out having sex?"
You don't like >> Oh, no. No. Sorry about that. I wasn't I didn't know that you guys were referring to this cuz I don't It doesn't look like he was referring to her as a dog in the scripture record.
>> Read it. Read it a second time.
>> I just I just I just re I just reread it.
>> So, tell me where I'll try.
>> He said >> he said to her. All right. So he's speaking to the woman. He says, "Let the children be fed first, for it is not fair to take the children's food and throw it to the dog or the dogs."
>> Right.
>> Right.
>> So he's comparing the children of Israel, >> the children of Israel are the children.
>> The Gentiles herself is the dog. She's a dog.
I believe there's more reference to the bread than the dog in that >> the bread. This has nothing to do with the bread.
>> So why why are you putting so much emphasis on >> What's the purpose of the What's the purpose of him even saying the word dog here?
>> Y'all tell me cuz I I don't understand.
>> No, you're saying that he's not calling her a dog. So then you're saying he's not calling her a dog. So then what is the reason that he said dog here >> if it's not referring to her is the bread the dog I'm confused >> the whole reason no the whole reason for this is that Jesus actually cast a demon out of the young childless >> I didn't ask you what is the interpretation I exactly what what is the reason that your your Jesus even referred to dogs here like who what Is he calling a dog here? It's not the woman.
>> Throw it to the dogs. The people that don't have any faith in God at all.
>> Who are those people?
>> Your pearl to the dog. Who are those people in this story?
>> People that are that are trying to contradict the word of God.
>> Who are they? Who are they in this story? Are those people in this story asking him for food?
Jesus came for the Gentiles and the Jews. And it's the day of the Gentiles now. So I don't know the story, Kyle.
There are characters in this story. Yes.
>> Yes.
>> Okay. In the story, are the people who don't believe in Jesus or uh whatever you said casting their pearls before their stone, are they in this story asking Jesus for bread?
Yes. And he grants him the the what?
What do you mean? He just cast the demon out of the she as >> Kyle. Who are the people? Who is the person in the story that is of this unclean nature that he called a dog?
>> The woman of the gentile woman.
>> Bam. So he called a woman a dog, Kyle.
>> Okay. What's wrong with that?
>> That's what we said, Kyle. Do you remember saying, "Well, he didn't call the woman a dog."
>> I don't I don't I don't believe >> he didn't call the woman a dog, Kyle.
>> Do you remember saying that?
>> Believe that God getting justice for people that are mocking him.
>> I'm sorry, Kyle. Do you remember saying that your go Kyle? Can can you just admit to this and then we can move on?
>> Like this is what short this is what happens when you take supernatural shortcuts. Do you remember saying >> I just admitted to it?
>> No, you didn't.
>> Do you remember saying that you do you remember saying Kyle, do you remember saying that he never called her a dog?
>> Uh, when I'm reading it, yeah, it looks like it says not good to take children's bread and throw it to the little dogs.
>> And and you would you admit that you took a supernatural shortcut and you were wrong?
>> No, I didn't take a supernatural shortcut. Like I said, I had to deal with the same things you did. And I actually went through addiction the same way you did. You did not focus on being good, being good and going. You know what? It wasn't your Holy Spirit. It wasn't your falling off. Hold on. No, hold on. It wasn't your I'm talking about the scripture. What are you talking about? The addiction. We're talking about the scripture. I'm talking about your testimony that you gave all the effort that you put into the scripture.
>> I'm talking about the scripture. You took a supernatural shortcut and you were wrong. Can you admit to that?
No, >> he'll never.
>> Yeah, this is the problem. This is the problem. This is the problem. You are wrong and you were wrong and you don't have the ability to say that you were wrong. You first off, you keep interrupting me. First off, you keep interrupting me. Your your Jesus your Jesus messed you up. Will you be quiet?
Like, will you be quiet? I'm going to mute you. I'm going to mute you. And Jesus can't is not going to be able to do anything about it.
>> Like cuz Jesus does not have like he can't he can't do anything about it.
Like if I mute you, >> right?
>> I'm going to pray to I'm going to pray to Doug for this guy to get muted. Doug, if you're there, please mute Kai. Oh, [ __ ] He's muted already. I didn't even finish it.
>> Yeah, because Doug knows your heart.
>> He never even called me a dog.
>> Exactly.
>> Like the the problem with supernatural shortcuts. one, you don't have to do the work to actually become better, right?
And so there's no um no motivation for you to actually change and and pay attention to your own actions. It and and then second, like it wasn't your Holy Spirit that walked you through that scripture so that you could see who the characters are were, what what the uh metaphor was referring to. It was Justin and I. It wasn't Jesus. Jesus Holy Spirit gave you that supernatural shortcut and gave you incorrect information. Now >> hello.
>> You see the problem, right?
Uh, you kind of have to explain it to me again because I mean you guys said if I had a problem with uh Jesus calling someone a dog and I don't.
>> Oh, >> did we say that?
>> No, we didn't say that. But he's admitting now that Jesus did call her a dog.
>> Okay. So, he went from Jesus >> he went from Jesus didn't call her a dog to Jesus did call her a dog, but it's okay.
>> Right.
>> Right. So, let's go to that. I was wrong. You did change your mind. So, let let me let me change my mind and say uh answer your question. I I don't believe God's wrong for calling them dogs.
>> Is Is a dog an insult?
>> I would insult somebody that's insult me, too.
>> It It was a The woman insulted her.
>> H >> Tell me where the woman insult insulted Jesus.
>> Uh I believe he blessed that woman. So he didn't he didn't insult her.
>> I said, "Show me where the woman insulted Jesus." Cuz you just said she did.
>> She insulted him by being a gentile.
>> She being born not Hebrew.
>> So it's okay for Jesus to use a slur >> against someone who's not >> of his ethnicity. Is that what I'm understanding?
>> Yeah.
>> So your God can slur.
>> This is the dumbest thing I've heard in a long time. Oh, I hear you. I hear it all the time.
>> I mean, you got to take the Bible with >> Hold on, hold on, hold on. So, your God can say a slur. Your God can say a slur.
>> Is that what I'm understand?
>> Yeah. Isn't like he's cursing somebody?
He's not cursing anybody.
>> Wait. Slurs is not like cursing anybody.
>> No.
>> So, if >> that's like me calling you a [ __ ] and then being like, >> not like me if hold on. Did Kai say what I think he just said?
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Cuz I am a [ __ ] You know what I mean? Like I'm black. So that's saying like black people call other black people [ __ ] >> So if I'm saying if I call you a [ __ ] is that a slur?
>> Will you Will you hold on? If we change the story like and I and I do this all the time. Okay. I'm gonna read it with the way uh and Mark um I I hate that I have to read this with the King James, but if I change it >> and I and I make it white supremacy, right?
And I say the woman was a black woman and she w and she needed bread for her for her daughter and instead of Jesus, it's a it's a white man, right? And instead of dog, he says the n-word.
That's okay with you.
That's not a slur.
>> That That's not what's going on in these.
>> That's exactly what's going on. Th this is Jesus is the uh dehumanizing this woman of gentile Greek Sarapheneician ethnicity.
She is. And in in fact, when Matthew writes about her, in fact, when Matthew writes about her, Matthew changes her uh eth ethnicity to her nationality to a Canaanite because she's considered unclean.
And and and they didn't even use Canaanite can uh them identifying as Canaanite. Uh they had been identifying as Canaanite for hundreds of years for Matthew to even write that in there. And that's because Matthew didn't want Jesus to be um dehumanizing someone um of a uh who was Greek and the Canaanites were already seen as unclean.
>> Okay.
>> So I don't I don't I don't see how you I don't understand why you think that this is any different like for you to be saying my God can use a slur, >> right? I meanless that woman asked for a blessing and he granted her that blessing because her humility cuz she was humble.
>> No, he literally said what this whole story.
>> This is why I chose Mark. This is why I say let's do Mark because he literally says for saying that he tells her that the reason that he blessed her daughter was because she said yes Lord even dogs eat the crumbs under the master's table.
She's basically acknowledging that the Israelites are superior. She's inferior and they are her masters as a gentile.
And he say humbled herself. I'm sorry.
He says for saying that he basically says good little doggy.
>> Mhm. Pat pat her on the head.
>> He she humbled herself. Those those who humble theirelves will be exalted and those who need humbled be humbled.
>> Why does she need humbled?
>> Everyone needs to be humbled. I mean, if you think you save yourself, then you need to humble yourself.
>> What did she What did she do wrong that she need humbled for?
>> Believing believing in the false gods.
Uh, do you even know what they were doing?
>> Did Did Yeah, I do. Did Yahweh did Yahweh appear to them?
>> Did Yahweh appear to them?
>> Jesus was there. Yes.
>> He was Phoenicia is >> Do you know where is >> Do you know where Cyro Phoenicia is?
>> No, I don't.
Okay. It's it's not in Israel. It's north of Israel. Syria is northeast and uh Phoenicia is northwest. Not part of Israel. God didn't didn't select those people. He didn't give them a message.
>> The land of milk and honey was in Africa anyway. I mean, I know we're talking about where Jesus was born because he was the Messiah, but the land of milk and honey anyway.
>> That guy not for real at all.
>> Hey. Hey. I'm just giving you the truth, brother. Are you an Israelite, Kyle?
>> Uh, I am Israel. Yeah, because I'm I'm >> You like dress up in purple robes and march in the street?
>> I've seen the black Hebrew Israelites.
>> That's not That's not Israel. This is the time of the Gentiles. This is the time of the Gentiles, right?
>> That That doesn't address my question.
Are you part of the Black Hebrew Israelite movement?
>> I am not.
Are you Are you claiming to be I believe in the risen Messiah? Wait, are you claiming to be Israel because you're gratifying?
>> Like, will you stop?
>> No. No. Be Yes. Yes. Because I have the spirit of God in me. Like, you have to be born again to be >> completely lost.
>> You have to be reborn to be Israel.
>> So, you're So, you're grafted in the tree. You're not claiming to be ethnic.
You're not claiming to be ethnically Israel >> like like the Israelites are.
>> Not at all. No.
>> So, what what did you bring up Africa for?
>> You said Israel. That's where the land of milk and honey was. I mean I mean I mean I mean there's there's a lot of false narratives out here like like like Moses wasn't black or something. You know what I mean?
>> From northern Africa to Africa.
>> Yes. Moses was black.
>> Moses was not black.
>> Why do you think he Why do you Why do you think he would have been able to have a black wife? He wouldn't have been able to have a black wife if he wasn't black and the Egyptians wasn't black.
the fact that the ancient Egyptians wasn't black.
>> The fact that racism was a thing in and uh ancient Israel like >> he had an Ethiopian wife. He had an Ethiopian wife.
>> What do you mean that it it was bad for him TO HAVE A BLACK WIFE? So >> he that means he was black. They was from the they was in the same region. It was it was like going from from East Texas to North Texas something like it's not >> they don't care. You know that you know that Egypt >> I really had to read through the lines.
I have K. You know the Nubians were all over Egypt, right?
>> They they were one of the main mercenary forces at certain times.
>> He didn't have to travel. So you mean down below Africa to find a woman?
>> I swear to God. They're in the neighborhood.
>> But he had a black. So you're saying he didn't Columbus? Like what?
>> He didn't have a black wife. No. Answer my question. Did he have a black wife?
>> But we we all agree he did.
>> Did he have a black wife? Okay. We all >> she was Ethiopia and she wasn't she didn't call herself black.
>> Okay. Well, she had black skin, didn't she?
>> I don't know. Ethiopians don't have black skin.
>> Ancient Egyptians had black skin.
>> Everybody The fact that everybody on the continent was the same shade is crazy.
Or the fact that you think that everybody with melanin is a are African.
Like first off, those of us from the uh transatlantic slave trade who are descendants of the transatlantic slave trade are West African. I have no idea who were the first I have no idea. I have no it >> everyone that has no idea.
I really don't want to yell over you. I don't >> I have no idea what it is about you men >> and and y'all think that I'm going to like just get quiet because you keep talking over me. I will lose my voice to get my point across.
Woman. I am not trying to talk. I don't know what you have against me.
>> What the [ __ ] bro?
>> I said woman. She's a woman, ain't she?
>> That's missinker to you.
>> What did he say? She's a woman.
>> He called you woman.
>> I said I said woman. Is that >> Who the hell are you talking to?
>> See, she ain't See, she she ain't have a problem with till you said something.
>> I didn't [ __ ] hear you. If I'd have heard you, I'd have cussed you out a long time ago. I'm not I'm not your woman. You don't talk to me like that.
>> He taken after Jesus when Jesus called his mom woman.
>> What am I supposed to call you?
>> Uh do can you read? If you wouldn't take shortcuts with [ __ ] literacy, you would be able to look at the uh screen and see that my name is Stinker. This is why I said Jesus and these supernatural shortcuts with forgiveness and and [ __ ] addiction and [ __ ] If you would pick up a book and read, you would see that my name is Thinker.
>> It's in the title of the video.
Oh, I wasn't even looking at it. I was just actually on my uh on my keypad.
>> But I'm looking, >> just to be clear, >> go ahead.
>> Uh Nubians were were abundant even outside of u like Ethiopians, Nubians, people from Africa were abundant in the northern region. He didn't have to travel down there to uh to find one.
>> Okay. But doesn't everyone have black animals, though?
What do you What do you think?
>> Can two black people make a white baby?
And can two white people not make a black? Gosh, >> this guy can't ask. I'm just asking. I'm just asking.
>> I think it's time to take our last caller. What do you think?
>> Yeah, >> I'm just asking. I'm asking.
>> This doesn't make like No. And >> now we took care of that.
>> Kyle could not track. He tracked as well as he read.
>> It was irritating.
It's wild that like you ask him specific questions and then we get close to a conclusion and then just runs off on something else. What are we doing here?
>> Yeah.
>> Oh wow. Um >> do you want the last call to be a theist or >> I Well, J listen. Jaden says Christianity is true because of multiple evidences in history, philosophy, and archaeology. He sounds like he's going to convert us to Christianity.
>> Oh, okay. We can do. Yeah, >> if you want to.
>> Yeah, that sounds good to me.
All right.
I hope it's not a fail, bro, though.
>> Yeah, let's let's hope not. Well, we'll see.
>> Hey, Jaden. How are you?
>> Hello. Hello. How are you? Can you hear me?
>> Mhm.
>> You You can hear. Sorry.
>> Yes, I can hear you. Can you hear him?
>> Perfect. Yeah. Yeah. Well, well, first of all, I appreciate you guys taking the call. I respect um and and I esteem your your worth and you value both of you.
You're made in the image of God and I think you have dignity and worth. And first and foremost, Jesus and the New Testament and the Bible does not show or indicate that there's any sort of animosity towards women. In Christianity, women and men are of equal worth and value. And um that is stated by in Paul's letters. But second, I'd like to present >> Sorry, >> you have a Bible on you.
>> Um not with me right now. No.
>> Yeah. Because uh in 1 Timothy chapter 2:1 says, "Let a woman learn in silence with full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over man. So she is to keep silent. For Adam was formed first and then Eve, and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet she'll be saved through childbearing. Uh provided that they continue in faith and love and holiness and self-control. So like he literally tells the women to sit down and shut up.
And that's equality.
>> I Well, with all due respect, sir, I don't think that's what the text has said. I think it's rather describing the roles within the church community for women and men. I don't think there's I don't think anywhere in the text it says woman shut up and don't speak because what we see in the rest of the New Testament is Phoebe being a deaconess.
>> So they are speaking they're traveling they're doing errands. So I don't think that would be consistent with the New Testament.
>> It's a it's a contradiction with the New Testament because in Corinthians 14 Paul literally tells them to do what I just said.
>> Yeah. So with the Corinthian text, it's very clear from history and what we find in the records that the Corinth church was having a huge issue with women and their woman.
>> That's what the Corinth church was going through and they were very loud and obnoxious and interrupting the services.
Yeah. Go ahead.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Which which records say that?
>> Uh if you if you research I I can't just pull up records. I'm not a record but >> Okay. Well, okay. Okay. Am I am I wrong?
>> Yeah.
This is one of those old wives tells that pastors tell. There's there we don't have like documentation saying what was happening in this church. The only thing we know about this church is the writings to them.
>> Like where are you claiming you read the church records?
>> Well, so sorry. Say that again.
Where are you claiming to have uh read the church records in Corenth?
>> Yeah. I'm not archive are you claiming those were in?
>> Yes. So, okay. So, my my argument more so came from within the New Testament as a whole, not necessarily from some external source, if that makes sense.
Oh, >> so there's a there's a scripture in the New Testament that says the women were being loud and disruptive in the church.
No, but what I'm saying is within the whole council of the New Testament, we find women being used in the church in speaking roles. And so therefore, Paul couldn't have meant that to every church automatically, meaning all women. What it would indicate is that it is a contextual issue within the specific church.
>> Do you understand?
>> Nope.
>> No, I disagree.
>> Okay. Yeah.
>> Yeah. Because in Corinthians he says >> in Corinthians 11 and14 he just says the opposite.
>> He says um women should be silent in the churches plural churches for they are not permitted to speak but should be subordinate as the law also says if there's something they want to learn let them ask their husbands at home for it's shameful for a woman to speak in church. So he says church is plural.
Yeah, that okay. Yeah, I hear your point. I hear your point and I do see where you're coming from, but I I would still push back by saying the the context of the New Testament would not indicate that women were entirely silent in the church. So, so that would indicate that I know that's why you had to tell these Corinthians >> so that would indicate that Paul speaking to these Corinthians is talking about something different or culturally needed to be spoken of. But could could I present the the resurrection that I wanted to talk about with you guys?
>> Oh, I would I would love I mean, as long as the thinker's okay, move on. I would love to hear you tell me about the resurrection.
>> I'm good.
>> Why Why would we think that the sky carcass is up there somewhere?
>> Um, so, so have you heard of the minimal facts argument?
>> Sure do. And it's a joke.
>> Okay. Um well so what would your rebuttal be to the minimal fact argument?
>> Those facts aren't agreed on by scholars. Gary Habermass list of scholars is incomplete and lacks names.
And uh it's also just doesn't matter because Jesus didn't fulfill a single messianic prophecy. It doesn't even if if you think he rose from the dead, it still wouldn't mean that he's Messiah.
All it means is that he was one of many people that rose from the dead. But the reality is there's no evidence that he rose from the dead. Not any good evidence. I've got equal evidence that shows other people rose from the dead, though.
>> What equal evidence do you have?
>> Firsthand witnesses, testimony, historians.
>> Who and where?
>> Um maybe Aristius. We can start with Aristius uh rose from the dead after he died in a Fuller shop. That's where they make soap. And then he was subsequently seen um alive uh to all of the prokinesises. In fact, it's written about by Heroditus, Ply the Elder, Appalonius, Diodoris, Plutarch, and they even set up a statue next to Apollo and uh deified him after his appearances.
>> And did did the people who witnessed his so-called resurrection end up being martyed and dying for what they said?
>> That has nothing to do with whether or not the story is true. Also, you have no idea how he died.
>> It does.
>> No, it doesn't. Well, well, it it would indicate that the resurrection story with the narrative of the New Testament is entirely different because the evidence that I'm that I'm trying to present here, >> which your own argument >> Yeah. So, I'm presenting it now. So, from your own argument, you said no, they didn't they didn't go on dying or to be martyrs for what they saw. But what we see with the New Testament is very clear.
>> The two James, >> the two Jameses we know were killed as was Paul. He might have died of natural causes in prison, but not entirely clear. And Peter maybe was a martyr, but the book that talks about his martyrdom the most is full of all kinds of nonsense that you probably wouldn't accept if I read it to you. And after that, the death of the remaining disciples, some of them we don't know, and some of them written hundreds of years after the fact.
Yeah. Yeah. I would I would agree on that. I don't think it makes the case entirely empty. How does it make the case entirely empty? The fact that >> how because uh people >> Yeah. Go ahead.
>> Because people people would die for being mistaken all the time.
>> Okay. Well, they wouldn't die for something they knew to be a lie. Uh or they believe they knew it to be a lie.
They knew it was Wait. No. No.
>> That's That's not what I said. I said they were mistaken or tricked even.
>> What did you say? What did you say?
>> Said I didn't say they died for a lie.
I'm saying they died because they're dumb and they got tricked by an imposttor.
>> How did they get tricked?
>> By an imposttor. The same way Nero tricked dozens and dozens of people. Um well, Nero imposters tricked dozens and dozens of people in the the 30 years after his death. So much so that the Parththeians were willing to uh to strap up and uh start nearly start a war with Rome over it.
>> Wait, wait, I'm sorry. H how did explain how the disciples got tricked?
>> Oh, it's easy. There was a Jesus imposttor just like there were Nero imposters. In fact, Mark tells you there's he tells you there's going to be imposters. Have you read Mark in the Olivet discourse?
>> Wait, says many will come in my name and say that I am he and they will lead many astray. It sounds like Mark is trying to prepare you for the fact that there were imposters.
>> Okay. So, could could you could you uh further explain who were the imposters and and how did that occur? Cuz I'm not actually understanding what you're saying.
>> Why in the world would I know the name of the imposttors?
>> No. No. Like, help me. I'm not >> I don't even know all the names of the Nero imposters. Why was knowing their name relevant? That's why Mary Magdalene didn't even recognize them. uh in John chapter 20 when she meets him outside the tomb. She thinks it's the gardener like this is the this is the man that you have all your hopes and dreams on.
You followed him for what two maybe 3 years at the most and like you you just saw him like two days ago. Two days ago she saw this guy and then he's at the tomb in his old body, the same body he had before and she can't recognize the guy cuz he's impostor.
So is is your your rebuttal to the resurrection the the idea that an impostor arose and deceived over 500 Jewish people so much so to the point that they went on to die brutal deaths for their belief.
>> That's not remotely my claim. The you're mixing up 1 Corinthians 15 with the disciples.
>> Can you name one of the 500? No, because there's not there's not I didn't say anything about the 500 witnesses in um in first saying that's >> I know I know you put it in there. There were no witnesses.
>> Yeah, but it doesn't change. Not a single one. Not a single one left a witness testimony. Not one.
>> Four to five of them did. That's we have them in the New Testament.
>> No, they didn't. No, they didn't. You didn't read 1 Corinthians 15 closely.
>> Paul wasn't a witness. Peter wasn't a witness. James wasn't a witness. Paul >> was Paul wasn't one of the 500.
Well, okay. To be certain, I just said James and Peter as well.
>> I know. I'm talking about the 500. You spuriously included that and you shouldn't have.
>> You said none of them.
>> So, the point the point's really easy.
It's really It's not It's not even difficult, right? Um, first of all, you have equal evidence for resurrections of other figures just like the gospels, which means I have no reason to believe that the gospels are any more truthful than these other resurrection stories.
The other thing is we know for a fact that in the ancient world, people would imposter um dead people. In fact, sometimes they even did it on purpose.
Uh like like the people pretended to be dead and then imposters came. This was a well-known phenomenon. So, like what's more likely? That a dude rose from the dead because he was God even though everything in the New Testament contradicts the Old Testament and he fulfilled no prophecies or there was an impostor. One or two disciples saw him was convinced and told the others. That seems more likely.
So what so once again your your rebuttal to the resurrection is the idea that the the apostles were deceived into thinking that Jesus rose from the dead and by this was by an impostor. Correct.
>> Yeah. We've got we've got priors for it.
We know that it does happen. There's no priors for resurrection. Although if you believe in the Bible, you might have prior, but scientifically there are no historical priors for resurrection.
Oh, well well yeah, the the argument isn't about a scientific argument. It's a historical argument.
>> What do you know about prior?
>> Sorry.
>> Do you know how how statistics and priors work when you're trying to determine what could be possible?
>> Oh, you're saying using the scientific method?
>> No. This that's probabilities.
Uh, I I get what you're saying, but could I could I just go back to what we were talking about?
>> But but my my point is pretty clear. We have lots of priors that validate what I'm saying most likely happened. One, lots of priors that people believed other people would resurrect, even though none of us would would accept it in modern day. I have lots of priors as well demonstrating that people claimed to be somebody that they were not after they were dead, and a lot of people would believe it. Those are things that we know for sure happen. So I'm saying when when we're doing likelihoods, what's the probability that one of these things that we already know happens happened or some dude rose in the heaven and completely contradicted what his own father said in the Hebrew Bible.
Okay. your your argument I think really really collapses whenever you actually understand the historical data and what I mean by that is >> tell me the data >> is >> yeah the okay so the minimal facts >> all most I'll say most scholars >> yeah most scholars actually disagree with you >> name one >> I'm not I'm not going to name them I'm not going to name them >> you don't know a single scholar do you >> but go ahead fact check me go ahead fact check me >> I'm waiting you can do it I just asked you to name a scholar.
>> I I will I will let you fact check me right now. I don't know the scholar's name. I don't memorize people.
>> You didn't make a claim. I'm not I'm not waiting to fact check you. I just asked you if you could name a scholar. The answer is no.
>> Could I could I name could I uh present the claim?
>> Yeah, I'm waiting.
>> And then and then you can go ahead and fact check me.
>> Mhm.
Most scholars agree that Jesus was Jesus's tomb was in fact empty.
>> No, they don't. They don't even know where the tomb was.
>> Okay. Do most Okay, let me ask you this.
Do most scholars agree that Jesus died?
>> They don't even know where the tomb was, but they the scholars agree it was empty. What? How? It's like, listen, the scholars agree that there was a there was a peanut butter jar that was empty in the first century. What peanut butter jar? Oh, we don't know. We just know it was empty.
>> What a preposterous claim.
>> Dude, can you answer my can you answer my question? Do most scholars believe that Jesus >> I didn't hear it cuz I was responding to what you said previously.
>> No, you were just you were just um laughing or something.
>> I was talking.
>> Do most scholars agree that Jesus was crucified?
>> Uh yeah, I agree with that too. I think he was.
>> Okay. Okay. And what so so your your main rebuttal is that an imposttor showed up. So do you think that the disciples were to >> do you think that the disciples were were so dumb that they couldn't realize who Jesus was um >> after he died? Did they just forget who Jesus was, his personality, his character, all of that?
>> Yeah, the Bible says so. I I already illustrated it for you. You weren't listening. John 20.
In fact, even when Jesus rose, when when Jesus appeared to them at the end of Matthew, it literally says that the disciples still doubted. Have you read this book or did you just read know he was walking with them?
>> Yeah. How in the world are the disciples seeing the resurrected Jesus and they still doubt? What? What a crazy thing.
I I I would I would compare that to the fact or hypothetical if if God showed up to you guys in your room in a vision or something, you would probably doubt and probably not believe what you're seeing and say it's a hallucination. Probably the >> Yeah. I'd call a doctor. Yeah. Yeah.
Matthew 28 says, "When they saw him, they worshiped him, but they doubted."
So, how did how did they doubt if this was the guy they just followed for 3 years? It's because it's important >> in the same way you just >> in the >> I didn't hear anything you said because you were talking while I was talking.
>> They would doubt in the same way that you would doubt if if God showed up to you in a vision.
>> Not if I spent time with him. If I spent time with a human being for three years and then they were murdered and then I saw them again, I wouldn't doubt that it was them. Like there's facial features.
For example, I I've got a twin brother.
>> Yeah, I've got a twin brother. And guess what? We look a lot [ __ ] alike. We We're identical twins, but you know what? People can still tell us apart. If you if you notice for even one year, you can tell who's who. You can tell their vocal inflections. You can even look at the like uh face marks that are on the face. You can look at a hairstyle. The identifying marks of a human are not hard to make out. And if he was bloodied and like beaten the way that he was at the cross, they're like, "Oh, well, this obviously must be Jesus. Who else received this treatment?" And some listen, some of them laid him in the tomb like they were they were present when they carried him off.
I I think that what you just said about you and your brother and how um how you guys can be recognized actually goes entirely against your your impostor argument >> because the disciples >> weren't stupid. They would have recognized the real person Jesus.
>> But you're claiming that they only saw an impostor.
>> So that just goes against your entire argument about you and your brother. No, >> but let >> can we can we read Luke 24 um 13-6 because the disciples I mean uh some of Jesus's followers does not recognize Jesus after he resurrects and he's like walking and talking with them. He's like, "What's on your mind? What are y'all discussing?" And they're like, "Are you a stranger?"
Right? They didn't recognize him then.
And it it it says their eyes were kept from recognizing him.
>> Okay.
>> Right. An impostor.
How can you be How can you be following?
How can you be following someone for three years? You just watched him get crucified.
He resurrects and you're walking and talking, have a conversation with him, but you do not recognize his face.
You don't know who it is that you're talking to to the point to where you really you literally thinks that this is a stranger in town.
>> Where does it say they thought he was a stranger?
>> Now that same day. No, it's >> No, that's what a stranger is. It's a person you don't you don't know. It's called a stranger. It says then one of them it says then one of them whose name was Cleopus answered him are you the only stranger in Jerusalem who does not know the things that have taken place uh there wait a second you you're reading a okay you guys are really really ripping ripping >> don't read it for what it says don't read it for what it says >> no no no no I can explain this no like genuinely >> this text >> is Jesus appearing ing to two disciples before he reveals himself to them. If you read the revealed, what does the reveal mean?
>> Still should have been able to see his face. Was he in a different body?
>> Not yet.
>> Okay, first of all, first of all, John says just mentioned, >> those disciples you just mentioned, Cleopets and the other weren't actually the 12 disciples. Okay, >> it doesn't matter. They were the 12 disciples. He had more than 12 followers.
>> Jesus had more than 12 12 followers.
They they saw Jesus before he died, right? Jesus had multiple followers. He had 12 best friends, but he had multiple followers. They saw him before he died.
They saw him get crucified.
They should have been able to recognize him.
It doesn't make sense. You don't like his face should have still been the same.
>> Yeah, I I get what you're saying. I think you the issue here is not really about um the recognition. I think it's more so about whether you guys think miracles can happen or not. I I don't think the issue is >> that has nothing to do with >> reading whether miracles can happen.
We're talking about whether he was an impostor or not.
>> Yeah. If I was Jewish, I would have the same opinion. Like people resurrected in the Hebrew Bible like when Elisha was buried uh a guy was pushed into the or sent into the the open grave and he resurrected from the dead. Elisha laid on a boy and resurrected him mouthto mouth, hand to hand. It's a creepy story, but that if you're like you can be Jewish and still think that Jesus had an aposture. Has nothing to do with God.
>> What What do the Elisha examples have to do with this?
My point is we're not saying Jesus didn't resurrect because we're atheists.
We're saying because of the evidence >> and your evidence is that the other examples of Nero and the imposttor and stuff.
>> What? No. For the thing we just Yeah.
The thing the Nero the imposttors there's no actual evidence that he resurrected which is a huge problem.
>> Uh there's no facts that you're referring to. Just because a scholar has an opinion doesn't make it a fact. And the majority of scholars didn't agree to this.
>> Which scholars?
>> Okay.
>> Where's the consensus?
>> Yeah. Well, sure. Sure. I I see I see where you're coming from. H how could I ask you a question?
>> Mhm.
>> How do you think How do you think Christianity um kickstarted and and went so widespread and so rampant? Why why do you think that the same way Islam did by the sword?
Okay, hold up. Hold up.
>> Have you never read the Have you never read the early church?
>> That is a historical just absolute disgrace.
>> No, it's not. I mean I mean is it is a disgrace. Yes. Constantine was literally forcefully baptizing Jews and murdering Aryans.
>> Can I speak >> the early >> Are you going to address you going to address what I said?
>> The early Yes, I am. The early church never used the sword for the first uh what was it 300 years until Constantine.
Okay.
>> How did Christianity spread widespread purs? That's historical fact, man. Don't ask.
>> Where can I find that fact?
>> Go fact check it. Go fact check it.
>> Where can I find it?
>> Go.
>> You have a habit of calling historical facts and back claim. Listen, I'm not researching your claim. If you make it, you should have the source. It's called a trust me bro. I don't have to.
Assertions made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
>> Well, okay. So, my my evidence comes from the New Testament. But first of all, you don't believe in that. So, why would I give you my >> Because the New Testament demonstrabably says things that are untrue. What year was Jesus born?
>> So, huh?
>> What year was Jesus born? Because this is the other reason why I don't believe Jesus resurrected is because the Bible, specifically New Testament, lies over and over and over again. What year was Jesus born?
Uh before I answer that, can you answer my question? What >> answer spread >> spread so far with with only persecution and not using the sword?
>> It didn't. In fact, if you read the writings of origin denying historical fact, >> well, especially not using the Bible because you're saying that your like you're saying that your evidence that Christianity did not spread using the sword is the Bible that it didn't spread far in the Bible.
It didn't spread far in the Bible.
>> No, like not beyond Roman provinces and and throughout the Levant. Like what what do you mean spread far?
>> Well, I mean we have Paul going to the the um the other provinces. Uh we have thousands of people uh said to be converting to Christianity. So >> where >> in the book of Acts?
>> Why would we trust the Bible? Again, I'm telling you, one of the reasons why these stories are silly to us is because it can't even get basic facts straight.
Which is why I'm telling you, you can't tell me when Jesus was born. I guarantee it.
>> Uh I don't have the exact date. It's around >> well >> something AD. I don't think that matters.
>> Prior It's prior to the death of Herod, isn't it?
I really don't think that matters in the discussion.
>> It does matter. I'm going to explain it to you like really easy. If the Bible can't even get when he was born anywhere close to correct, then I I'm Listen, I won't trust you in the big stuff if I can't trust you in the small stuff. It says when Herod died there in Egypt, when Herod died, an angel of the Lord suddenly appeared in a dream to Joseph in Egypt and said, "Get up and take the child and his mother and go to the land of Israel, for those who are seeking the child's life are dead." Then Joseph got up and took the child and his mother and went to the land of Israel. But when he heard that Archelaus was ruling in Judea, the place in place of his father Herod, he was afraid to go there. So his father Herod dies, Archelaus goes to rule in his place. So this is 4 B.CE.
That's when he dies. And then Archelaus is there. Now in Luke 2, it says in those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered. This was the first registration that was taken while Corinius was governor of Syria and all went to their own town to be registered and you know the story. They went down to Bethlehem and did the registration so on and so forth. These dates are 10 years apart minimum.
Herod's been dead for at least 10 years before Corinius had anything to do with Syria. He was at war prior to this.
>> Okay. So this is an entirely different uh argument and discussion. Um >> no I I'm demonstrating the reason why the resurrection story is nonsense is because I can find every page of the New Testament something that is either wrong or contradictory. The first page of Matthew has like five errors.
>> Okay. So if I even began to try to to try to explain these things, you would just just go and and go ahead and No, you're wrong.
>> Um >> well, go ahead and explain them. Maybe you're right. Prove me wrong.
>> Wait, wait, hold up, hold up, hold up.
>> I'm willing to be wrong.
>> Can we go back to our actual discussion?
>> This is part of the discussion. This is the meat and potatoes of discussion. I gave you three reasons not to believe the resurrection. One, because the Bible's not trustworthy. Two, because we know impostors existed. And three, what the hell was my first point when we first started here? Oh, yeah, other people have similar evidence for their resurrection, which means Jesus's data is not special at all. I'm not interested at all in Jesus' resurrection until you can tell me that it's somehow more special. But it's not more special.
It's just wrong. Which is why I can show you these contradictions in the Bible and you have no way to resolve them.
>> Okay. Yeah. So, so with your argument for the impostor, I would say this.
>> You even fix I'm waiting for you to fix the birth date.
>> We we've been here for for two minutes, maybe four. I I need you to address this problem first.
>> You you're you're not you you don't want me to respond to what you just said about the resurrection.
>> I I gave you that opportunity 10 minutes ago. I want you to respond to this passage, Luke 2 and Matthew 2. I'm demonstrating something to you that's important for the resurrection conversation, but you're not going to skip it. I need you to fix this problem.
>> I get what you're saying. Okay. I do >> at this very moment.
>> Are you going to admit that the Bible contradicts itself?
>> Uh I I No, I'm not because I don't believe it does. You're not. What I will say >> it it it does.
>> Can I finish?
>> Who is Ar who is No. Who is Archelaus?
>> I can't finish. Archelaus was the son of Herod.
>> Not letting me explain myself.
>> He was deposed in 6 CE and in his place up in Syria was Corinius. These events are 10 years apart.
>> Here, >> are you gullible enough to think that the Bible has no errors? You can't be that silly.
Um, so, so I could tell you what my belief is and what my belief says, but I'm I don't think that's what I'm I'm here to do right now. I think we were having a good discussion about the resurrection. You sidetracked it.
>> My argument sidracked. I'm proving my point.
>> Christianity >> My argument is about how Christianity proving that the Bible is not a reliable text.
>> Okay. Okay. Well, I I get it. I get it.
I'm not arguing from at this very moment about the beginning of Christianity. I'm not arguing from scripture.
>> We are.
>> Okay. Well, then we're we're on two different um two different lanes here. I don't know what to >> we want to read the Bible and you don't.
>> Uh that's you you don't believe the Bible and I do. That's that's what's going on.
>> No, you don't.
>> Yes. You're the Bible. What? What if I do what you believe?
>> Because because you already lied. If you believe the Bible, you would know that there were imposttors cuz Jesus Cuz Jesus said there would be.
>> I already read it to you. You weren't listening. Mark 13:6, "Many will come in my name and say, "I am he." Mark Listen, Mark says it.
>> Jesus literally said, "Imposters will come in my name."
>> He literally said it. We know there were imposters. This is not a question talking about.
>> He's talking about his second coming.
Well, since you know everything about the Bible, what did he mean by that?
>> He says they're going to be imposters.
Many will come in my name and say, "I am he." That means there are people who are going to come and say, "I am that Jesus.
I'm him." That's what that means.
>> Yeah. Do you know what he's talking about in in that?
>> I know what he's talking about. This I just told you it's a second coming. This is part of the Olivet discourse where he lies about when his second coming is. He says it's within that generation and it's not within that generation.
>> You know what? why he didn't resurrect means in the book of Matthew.
>> I do. Yeah. The the Greek word gana just literally means a generation. It doesn't it doesn't mean it doesn't mean >> it doesn't mean what what's the Greek word and interpreting it in your own lens and not what's the word the books you >> what's the Greek word >> for what?
>> Tell me what tell me what the Greek word is the one that you think it doesn't mean generation.
No, in context, the word gener the this generation in Matthew applies to a type of >> What's the Greek word?
>> No, it does not.
>> I don't know.
>> So, you you don't know what the Greek word is. It's written in Greek and you know that the translator of this text is wrong. That's crazy.
>> Okay. Once again, you're just you're misrepresenting what I'm saying. You're lying. You're Could I just ask you to do one thing?
>> Sure. Try to try to read the Bible without all of your presumptuous thinking.
>> I have. That's why I'm an atheist now.
>> You have?
>> I used to I used to be a Christian, then I studied the Bible.
>> Okay.
>> Jesus says all of these signs are going to happen before this generation passes away. He repeats it in Mark 16:27-28 and in Matthew 10:23. Have you read those verses?
>> There's Yes. Uh once again though I I would like you to answer my my question about how Christianity w spread so far so wide and so fast without using >> I told you already that it didn't >> it didn't spread >> it didn't spread as you're describing it wide fast and far >> okay tell tell me about early Christianity then >> how many how many Christians existed in the first century >> um Probably something I over 10 tens of thousands I'd say.
>> Tens of thousands. How many people lived in Palestine?
>> I don't know, dude. What? Why is that, man?
>> Millions. It wasn't that popular.
>> Okay. My question was, how did Christianity spread so far so wide? Um, >> you're not listening. I just said it didn't.
>> Oh, it didn't. In fact, If you read the letters of the of like the Roman rulers, like they don't even know who the Christians are. Like they're like, "Hey, they have no idea what we're supposed to like who these people are, what we're supposed to do with them." It wasn't that popular. The the Bible is a fairy tale, just like the other writings of the time period.
>> All right, man. Well, hey, look, I appreciate you uh being willing to have a discussion. You have anything else you want to say?
>> Yes. Um, I'll pay you 150 bucks right now in Venmo if you can tell me one prophecy Jesus actually fulfilled.
>> Sure, I can tell you. Psalm 22. Uh, it says >> that's not a prophecy.
>> Um, >> it it Okay. How are you defining prophecy then?
>> Prophecy is an actual prediction for the future that needs to come true or a message for the present time. And this is not it. It's also from God. This is from David. And it doesn't say pierce.
The word theor in Hebrew doesn't show up here.
Uh, it does, but that's a whole different argument. No, it doesn't. So, what are you asking for in a prophecy?
>> No. The word that shows up there is kari. And if you go back to an older manuscript, it's karoo. But karu is not a real Hebrew word. Do you know Hebrew?
Have you seen these manuscripts?
>> I was getting ready to ask cuz like, >> do you know Hebrew? Do you know Hebrew?
>> Yeah, >> you do. You've stud.
>> So, I just told you the words. Yeah, I went to seminary. I studied Hebrew and Greek.
>> Oh, I don't know.
>> You went to where?
a lot.
>> You went to seminary?
>> Yeah, that's why I know about this and you don't.
>> Okay. Um Okay. So, so what qualifies a prophecy?
>> I just told you a prediction for the future or information from the current time that comes from God that they need or that wouldn't otherwise have at that time. But just random words on a page that sound vaguely familiar to something later is not a prophecy. If you think that's a prophecy, wait until you hear all the prophecies about me. You want to hear the ones I fulfilled?
>> Okay. Okay. So, the prophecy to King David in 2 Samuel when God declares, "You shall have a son and he shall sit on the throne forever."
>> Oh, no.
>> That's not a prophecy.
>> You don't want to do that one. That's certainly not about Jesus. But that is a prophecy. You want to read the rest of it >> about the rod and your discipline and stuff?
>> Yeah. And uh >> and what does he say about the seed coming from David's body?
>> What?
>> Verse 12. When your days are fulfilled and you lie down with your ancestors, I will raise up your seed after you shall come forth from your body. Jesus didn't come from the body of of King David.
He has no relation whatsoever to King David.
>> Dude, what?
>> Yeah. Both of the lineages go to Joseph.
>> Okay.
>> Have you bothered to read this book? You haven't read anything in this book.
>> Wait, hold up, hold up, hold up. What about the prophecies?
>> Have you not read the lineages?
>> Look, man. Just what about the prophecies that says uh from you, oh Bethlehem, from your shall your ruler come. Um he shall shall be lowly and mounted on a donkey, your king. What about that?
>> Zechariah 9. That's an easy one. He didn't do what the prophecies were about. What do you think that prophecy is about? Have you read it? Or did you just read that one verse because it show Did you read that one verse because it showed up in the New Testament? Or did you read the whole prophecy, >> dude?
>> I'll read I'll read it for you since I know that you haven't read it. I didn't say it's not a prophecy. I said Jesus didn't fulfill it. I fulfilled it cuz I've ridden a donkey. But that's beside the point. In fact, let me I'll take your tithes and offerings.
>> So did I. I'm the Messiah now. Rejoice greatly, O daughter Zion. Shout aloud, oh daughter Jerusalem. See your king comes to you. Triumphant and victorious is he. Humble riding on a donkey, on a colt, the f of a donkey. He will cut off the chariot from Ephraim and the waror from Jerusalem. And the battle bow battle bow shall be cut off. And he shall command peace to the nations, and his dominion shall be from sea to sea, from the river to the ends of the earth.
Did he actually ever for one second become king in Israel and cut off the enemies?
So, you're mis misinterpreting that because that's a a fulfillment that hasn't been done yet. And it also could be looked at as a prophecy works.
>> That's how it's not a spiritual fulfillment. That's Do you pay your taxes spiritually?
>> I I said it could be looked at as a spiritual fulfillment.
>> Why? What the [ __ ] is a spiritual fulfillment?
>> Uh, something you may not understand, but how is the the Jesus?
>> No, no, I need I need you to You got the Holy Spirit. You can tell me what's a spiritual fulfillment.
>> Hey man, hold up. Hold up. Could we Could we finish what we're saying, >> buddy? I'm asking you about the words that left your mouth. What is a spiritual fulfillment?
>> Can we stay on track? Can we stay on track?
>> We are on track. I'm asking you to define the words that you're using in an argument. You said it could be defined or it could be fulfilled spiritually.
Nobody knows what that means, including you.
That argument that it could be fulfilled spiritually is meaningless until you tell us what that means.
>> Sure. I can tell you. So in the in the um the the resurrection of Jesus, at least as we Christians believe, it is declared that Jesus has victory over death and over Hades and over Satan. And so therefore, >> he get victory over the war horses and a battle bow and the chariots.
>> Dude, dude, there's there's symbolism there. Not everything needs to be taken literally.
What? What's a chariot in Ephraim?
What's that a symbol for?
>> Uh what was your name again?
>> Justin.
>> Justin. Could you >> You can find my channel at Deconstruction Zone if you if you need more cooking later.
>> Say that again. Sorry, I didn't hear.
>> I said you can find my channel on Deconstruction Zone if you need more cooking later.
>> More cooking.
You're you're new here. Don't worry.
Just go ahead.
>> Okay. Well, I don't think you've demonstrated how this prophecy isn't at least a partial prophecy of Jesus because here's why. If you just said yourself that this is a prophecy and and in the New Testament, you find Jesus riding a donkey coming into Jerusalem and them hailing him. Hosana, hosana, he who comes in the name of the Lord. So, this has to be by your own standard at least become a king. No, partial prophecies are [ __ ] If I said, "Listen, the Cleveland Browns are going to go over to Pittsburgh next year.
They're going to be undefeated the whole season. They're going to go to Pittsburgh uh at the end of the playoffs uh and uh defeat uh defeat the Steelers the second time uh right before the playoffs cuz we play them twice." And they go to Pittsburgh and they actually lose the second time. I say, "Well, it's a partial prophecy. They did go to Pittsburgh." How silly that is. There's such a thing as a partial fulfillment.
This is a prophecy about a real king doing real [ __ ] and Jesus didn't do it.
>> What did Jesus not fulfill in in that text?
>> He wasn't a king and he didn't cut off the enemies.
>> So him being hailed as king and him cutting off Satan and the devil.
>> Can you show me when can you show me where he ever took the throne?
>> You know people wanting him to be the king doesn't make him the king. Show me where he was ever on the throne.
or just calling somebody king doesn't make him a king.
>> Actually, uh the comments the comments called me king just a minute ago and I've ridden a donkey. It's a partial fulfillment. Everyone, your king is returned. I put the chef back in the kitchen.
>> Call me king and I'm the king now. It's a partial fulfillment. I'll cut off the the chariots later. Don't forget Don't forget your your throne is spiritual.
It does say in the New Testament that Jesus is seated at the right hand of the throne of the father. That would indicate that his he has kingship.
>> So, I'm at the right hand of the father.
>> How is it not a prophecy?
>> I No, I have I'm at the right hand of the father.
>> Does it say he's going to be a king in the sky?
>> Yeah. Like, why do y'all have to collapse the context so much? Like in order for in order for Jesus to fulfill this prophecy, you you literally have to collapse the context of the original uh prophecy in order to fit Jesus in it.
Like you don't recognize that you're doing that.
>> I do not know.
>> You literally are you're ignoring the historical context. You're you're ignoring that the prophecy is about a kingdom on earth and uh making it about this metaphysical spiritual kingdom uh soon to come in heaven. Like you're collapsing the entire context.
>> The banker's right. Look, it says that the king is the king of Jerusalem.
That that's a a location.
>> Okay. Um, how about the Isaiah one that says, um, Isaiah 53. Do you think that's just not a prophecy at all or what?
>> It's a prophecy, but it ain't about Jesus.
>> Oh, no. See that?
All right, man. Look, uh, it was good to talk to you guys. I I hope you guys have a good night.
>> I would run, too. Yeah. Yeah. I would run, too. Yeah.
>> Okay.
>> No, there's no running. It's just I I >> No, no. Why do you think that that's about Jesus?
>> The Bible says, "The prophet who wrote this text tells you who it is." Did you bother to read it?
>> You, Israel, my servant Jacob, whom I've chosen, the offspring of Abraham, I have chosen you, saying, you are my servant as Isaiah 41 8-9.
>> Isaiah 41 8-9. I just I just told you Isaiah 41.
Isaiah 4:18-9.
I said, "The author of Isaiah 53 told you nine different times who the servant is." Isaiah 43:10, "You are my witnesses, says the Lord, and my servant whom I've chosen." Isaiah 44:1-2, "Hear now, O Jacob, my servant, and Israel, my chosen, thus sayith the Lord, who made you." So on and so forth. 44:21.
Remember these things, O Jacob and Israel, you are my servant. We can keep going on. 454 for the sake of my servant Jacob and Israel my chosen I call you by your name my favorite 48:20 go out from Babylon flee from Chaldia declare this with a shout of joy and proclaim it send it forth to the ends of the earth and say that the Lord has redeemed his servant Jacob the servant is the righteous remnant of Israel the prophet told you you hate God's word >> you have like Chad GBT right in front of you is that how you're reading all these No. Nope. I have I have my own personal notes that I've collected from reading the Bible and you haven't read it.
That's your problem. See, I read this Bible and I highlighted it and I annotated it and then I wrote my own notes.
>> Justin, with all due respect, man, you you are kind of being a little disrespectful >> by by assuming what I've done and who I am. Can you at least >> I know I know you haven't read it, which is why you have no idea what scholars even say about this. I I I don't need to know anything about you to know that you don't know what's in this book. Because if you knew what was in the book, you would know that the nation of Israel is the primary contextual interpretation of this passage, even by Christian scholars.
>> I agree. No one's a dual fulfillment at at best, and dual fulfillments are nonsense.
I would not disagree that that the book of Isaiah indicates there there is a suffering servant who is Israel. But it also indicates another suffering servant who is a individual person who is the Messiah.
>> That is what Isaiah 53 is about.
>> Show me where it says that person is the Messiah.
>> In the text of Isaiah 53, we can read it right now. You can read it right now.
>> Show Show me Isaiah 53. It starts with 52. By the way, I I want you to show me in Isaiah 52 or 53 where it says anything about a messiah cuz thyrus is the only messiah in Deuteram.
>> Why don't you read the text right now?
The viewers can can comment and and and let us know if the text is speaking in a way that is about a corporate people, the nation of Israel, or if it's about an individual, a one singular person. Go ahead. Why wait?
>> What do you mean by one singular person?
Why why would we think it's about one singular person?
because of the context. What the wording says in the script.
>> What's the context?
>> What's the context?
>> Go ahead and read it. Read it.
>> No, I'm asking you what's the context because you don't know it.
>> It's the context is the suffering servant.
>> Yeah, but what's happening? Why is this happening? What what's he saying? What in history? What's happening? Who's this addressed to?
>> This is addressed to the Israelites.
What what are they say?
in exile.
>> That you got it. Fantastic. They're in exile. There's some that are still in Jerusalem, but mostly they're in exile.
The ones in Jerusalem, God's going to punish. Read Ezekiel about that one.
Nevertheless, God is going to bring a righteous remnant back. They're going to do no wrong according to Zephaniah. And 52 and 53 explicitly tell you who's talking and who's being punished and what's going on. You can start in verse 10. And the Lord has bared his holy arm before the eyes of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth will see the salvation of our God.
>> Right? Get it so far? What do you think bearing the arm means?
>> I would ask you to do this, Justin, for for for >> You're not going to you're not going to address the question.
>> Well, you're not addressing my question.
So, how am I supposed to address your question? Hey, um, hey viewers, put a put a 53 in the comments if you already know what's in Isaiah 53.
>> Okay, Justin, here's my request for you, man.
>> I I read this passage when I was like 12. This is not a complicated passage.
>> Yeah, I I No, no problem. Justin, here's here's my request for you before I before I leave, before we separate our ways. Could you read Isaiah 53 uh or starting in 52 and then read 53 and let the viewers decide if this is speaking contextually right grammatically about an individual or >> I don't know why you keep saying grammatically what what what does grammar have to do with this? It's in the past tense by the way.
>> It it has everything it has everything to do with it.
>> No. Why? Explain it and then I'll tell you why you're wrong. I I want you to explain why I'm demonstrating your your folly right now. What does the first person pronouns >> demonstrating anything? You're just you're >> what do the what do the singular pronouns have to do with the servant?
>> It has everything in grammar. I'm asking you >> did in multiple languages. Sure did.
>> You took English in multiple languages.
I >> I heard language. I didn't hear English.
or a grammar. Sorry.
>> You took English. You just >> I took I took grammar in multiple languages. I didn't hear you because we were talking at the same time.
>> Okay. All right. My bad. My bad. Um I I >> Do you want me to shortcut it and tell you why you're wrong?
>> Do you want me to shortcut it and tell you why you're wrong?
>> Okay.
>> All right. Go ahead and say Say the dumb thing. Just say the dumb thing and then I'll tell you why you're wrong.
>> Read the text, Justin.
I'm waiting for you to to address the grammar.
>> I'm waiting for you to to read the text.
>> Okay. So, uh I'll address the grammar for you. Isaiah 43:10 says, "You are my witnesses, says the Lord, and my servant." Okay. Is servant singular.
>> That's chapter 46. There's a switch in chapter 5.
>> That's chapter 40. That's 43. I need you to pay attention. It says, "You are my witnesses."
And >> you don't you're you're not addressing my point. You have no idea what I'm talking about right now. Just answer my question.
>> It's not it's perfectly relevant. Okay, I'll just explain it to you since it's over your head. Uh it is.
>> So in Isaiah 43:10, it literally says, "You are my witnesses plural." Meaning there's a plurality of people. There's multiples. There many of them, says the Lord, and my servant whom I've chosen.
So a plurality of people, a multitude of people are called a singular servant.
And when God refers to the servant, because it's a singular metaphorical reference, a people group as a servant, he uses the proper pronouns to refer to that servant. We all know how metaphors work. Do you follow?
>> Hey, Justin, I already told you there's a switch in chapter 52 and 53. What you're saying is irrelevant. I want you to read. You have no idea what I'm talking about.
>> He did. He didn't even grasp it.
>> I know what you're saying.
>> You have no idea. You don't. If you did, you wouldn't keep saying there is a hand.
>> If you did, if you understood If you understood what Justin just said, you wouldn't keep positing that there is a switch in 52 and 53.
>> You didn't understand what he just said.
Yes.
>> Really? So, so, so whenever you're reading >> the ser the suffering servant is referred to I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I've sat here quietly and allowed and and just listened to you speak. the the servant is um referred to in plurality in uh the singular form in Isaiah 42, Isaiah 404, Isaiah 45 all the way up to 52 and 53 >> that like you wouldn't be saying that there's a switch and you you would you would not be saying there's a switch in 52 and 53 if you paid attention to what Justin said or or if you understood. But I think you're so stuck on believing that Jesus is a suffering servant. Like do you like Let me ask you a question. Do you believe that Jesus was short, commonly uh bald, ignorable, hunchback, sickly, 4 foot, 4 foot two, 4 foot three?
>> I I don't know why you're asking that.
You don't know why I'm asking you that because it literally says that he was nothing to uh to look at, >> right? And in Isaiah 52, the suffering servant was nothing to look at, >> right?
>> Yeah. Yeah. I agree. You're right.
>> Jesus was ignoble, short, ugly, bald. He had a unibrow.
>> Okay. Well, I mean, you're you're kind of going crazy here, but >> he looked like God of Jesus.
>> He was nothing to look at. He was beyond >> Are you trolling right now?
>> No. Like there there are um early writings from um early church fathers.
There's a Syriak um record. Um you got uh is it Tacitus? I can't think of Erica.
Um, uh, Bishop Andrew of Cree, um, the Apocryphal writings of Peter, the Apocryphal writings of John. The words that I'm using is what they said Jesus look like. Like the hunchback of Jerusalem.
>> Yeah, I got you. I got you. I mean, I I hear you. But could I could I have Justin please read chapter 53? We like no.
>> Are you going to admit that the servant can be referenced in singular and refer to the whole people of Israel or at least the remnant?
>> Wait. Yes. Let me answer. Let me answer.
>> It's a yes or no.
>> I already have conceded. I already have said that yes, Israel is the servant in Isaiah. But I already told you there's two servants. One is singular, one is plural. One is Israel, and one is another.
>> So, you still didn't get it? You still didn't get it. Listen, the the singular and the plural is irrelevant. Did you hear the verse I read? Every time the servant is referenced, even if it's a plural, when you talk about the people group, it's a plural. When he says this people group is a servant, that servant is referenced in the singular. That's how metaphors work.
>> I I got you. Um I will concede. Can Can you read Isaiah 53?
>> Nah. Thanks for playing though.
I have no idea why they think reading Isaiah 53 for the 100th time is going to be the one we need. Our audience already knows it. They know it better than you.
They can probably repeat my talking points on it.
>> Exactly.
>> Oh, and goodness gracious. They get so stuck on >> Well, we we ran way over on time, but I think we can read the super chats that are 99 and over. Okay.
Um, >> are they gonna come up on screen?
>> Nope. I don't have that on the setup.
You'll just have to read them for >> Oh, okay.
>> Okay. I do have the fan funding page. I don't know if y'all >> Yeah, I have it.
>> Okay. Think you want to grab the first one?
>> Yeah. Um, Jen Ging2 2329, thank you for the $15 chat says, "You can ask Donovan why the God believes why the God believes in has not answered the merit of people uh who have had loved ones kidnapped all over Nigeria." Yeah, >> I agree.
>> Yeah, >> God will help you find your car keys, but he won't help anyone suffering. That that's out of question. Misha, good to see you, friend. Says, "Uh, Bruno, pull your head in, mate. You're embarrassing Australians in front of everyone." Get him, Thinker. Rock hard for D. Think, listen, Thinker was cooking like uh like the the lead chef in Gordon Ramsay's restaurant.
>> Um, Bill's child, thank you for the $10 super chat, mate. Stop it. Read the book before opening your mouth.
They like the super They like the uh shortcuts with the supernatural.
Don't do the hard work. Jesus gonna do it all.
>> Holy Spirit told me actually.
>> Jessica, thank you for the $10 super says, "Watching Thinker and Justin school. These mfers made my night.
Really hope to see this dream team again." Also, Rockhard Fug. This is a fantastic pairing. We had a blast.
>> Yeah, I always have fun when I'm cooking with you. Um, Spaghetti with the99 says, "Is it possible to get CTE without getting hit in the head asking for Jaden?"
>> Wait, what is CTE?
>> It's um when you you get brain damage from too like too many concussions.
>> Oh, >> yeah. Yeah.
>> Asking for a last super chat from Short Brother, thank you. Says, "Jaden is struggling hard. This is what happens when your ignorant child huffs his own farts until he's dizzy. Christians are dishonest as the day is long. You nailed it. Without lies, Christianity dies.
>> Oh my gosh. Well, I enjoyed the show today. Thank you so much, Justin.
>> That was a blast. Thanks for hanging out with me. We we we gave him an hour over today and I think it was a it was every minute of it was fun. We probably could have did more, but we got responsibilities. But fantastic. I I had a pleasure. I mean, it was my pleasure.
I had a pleasure. Sounds dirty. It's great. You're >> starting to sound like uh Oh, boy. When >> think pleasure, Justin, on the line Saturday night.
>> Oh my gosh.
>> I'm find my belongings on the front lawn in about 10 minutes.
>> All right, y'all. Thank y'all so much for being here. Until next time. Dustin, when are you going to be back on again?
I'll be live again uh Sunday morning on Unapologetic and then Monday on my channel.
>> Okay. All right. And then I will see y'all tomorrow on my channel at 11:00 p.m. uh Central Standard Time.
>> Bye. Do we have like music to roll out?
I think there might be. I'm learning.
Just say bye. Bye everybody. Bye.
>> Bye y'all.
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