Watch Gino Jennings Challenges Harry Knox on Live TV, Ungodliness of Homosexuality

[00:00:00]It it really is easy for me to to to answer, brother pastor.

[00:00:04]>> All right.

[00:00:06]>> The people who ask the questions get the answers to the questions they ask.

[00:00:12]And gay people have never been the powerful people in history. Never.

[00:00:19]>> Okay. And so the conversations that are recorded between Jesus and those who asked questions of him or to whom he was teaching are between people who were uh regarded as heterosexual.

[00:00:32]>> All right.

[00:00:32]>> The assumption was that they were as it is in most conversations. Uh when I go into a conversation, everyone assumes that I'm g non-gay that I'm that I'm heterosexual >> until they learn to the contrary. That's the nature of our culture. And it is simply not uh uh responsible for us to look for that conversation to be had in the Bible when there's no one to speak up for the powerless for the same reason that women are disrespected in so much of the Bible because they were powerless. The conversations in the Bible about them were among men.

[00:01:09]>> But how can you compare women to two men being married? That's totally different.

[00:01:14]>> How do you mean? I I I don't understand.

[00:01:16]Well, if if if I sleep with my wife, I'm complying with the law of God. In the book of Genesis, let's read where the Lord said the desire of the woman should be.

[00:01:24]>> In Genesis 3 and:e 16.

[00:01:26]>> Yes, sir.

[00:01:27]>> Unto the woman, he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception.

[00:01:31]>> Yes.

[00:01:31]>> In sorrow, thou shalt bring forth children.

[00:01:34]>> In sorrow, thou shalt bring forth children.

[00:01:38]>> And thy desire >> your desire >> shall be >> shall be >> to thy husband. And this was established in the beginning. Yes, sir.

[00:01:47]>> That's right.

[00:01:48]>> Where the desire should be between two people in a marriage.

[00:01:54]>> That's right.

[00:01:54]>> Mhm.

[00:01:55]>> And you're saying that you are justified by having your desire. You You're married. I presume?

[00:02:02]>> I'm not. I'm not partnered at all.

[00:02:04]>> You and your partner are not married.

[00:02:05]>> I do not have a partner.

[00:02:06]>> You don't have a partner, right?

[00:02:07]>> But if you get married, you plan on marrying a man or a woman.

[00:02:09]>> I would marry a man.

[00:02:10]>> You would marry a man?

[00:02:10]>> Yes.

[00:02:11]>> And represent Christ at the same time?

[00:02:12]>> Absolutely. How? Because >> the Bible says there's nothing new under the sun.

[00:02:16]>> And you must admit that your teaching and your deeds can't contradict the scripture. How can we just come up with something that's not scriptural?

[00:02:25]>> Again, brother pastor, it's it's easy for you.

[00:02:27]>> It it is easy. It's easier than it's ever been for me. And it's because and again it's just it's a a completely different approach to the to the scriptures that that comes out of our experience of being called by God to be in ministry or to be in in lay service in the church. Um and fully experiencing the love of God in every aspect of our lives, understanding the concept and the reality of God convicting of sin. Now, I've been convicted of some sins in my life and I've had to change some things, >> but not that.

[00:03:00]>> But not that one.

[00:03:01]>> You're not convicted of that.

[00:03:02]>> I am not. I again I you know, my entire experience is saying to God, I love you more than I love this sexual thing. I love you, God. I want to serve you.

[00:03:15]>> Man, you don't feel as though you breaking God commandment.

[00:03:18]>> It's for me, it is as beautiful and fulfilling and completing as I hope it is for you and your wife. for me.

[00:03:26]>> No, ain't no comparison there, buddy.

[00:03:30]>> With all due respect, brother pastor, you don't know.

[00:03:34][applause] With all due respect, you don't know.

[00:03:36]>> According to the Bible, >> ACCORDING TO THIS BIBLE, WHAT GOOD IS YOU COMING up here with the Bible?

[00:03:43]>> And don't believe what's in there.

[00:03:45]>> Oh, I believe it.

[00:03:46]>> You believe it?

[00:03:46]>> I believe it. But I again, I believe all of it. and and I have read all of it and studied as much of it as I could could study with with help from other people because the message of the Bible is one of uh love from our God more than anything else >> and to have sex with men. Is that showing the love of God?

[00:04:09]>> Well, let me let me get through what I want to say.

[00:04:12]>> Yeah.

[00:04:14]>> Love from God is the point. M >> reconciliation to God first and then to each other is the point of the whole book, the entirety of the book. Of course, you'll be able to find a a scripture here and a scripture there to to prick me with. And you won't do it out of out of lack of concern for me. You do it out of Christian love for me. You want to help me get to a different place that you think is better. And I value that.

[00:04:42]But I read the whole book and in light of my own experience and the experience of thousands and thousands and millions of other gay Christians around the world who say everything about this book tells me that I'm loved of God and that I can be empowered to love my neighbor as as effectively as I love myself to reach out in in in mutuality and and concern and care for each other. I can do that.

[00:05:12]>> Does the book tell the gay community that their deeds are godly? When a man lay with a man, does anywhere in the book tell a gay man your deeds in that act is godly?

[00:05:23]>> I simply think it's unrealistic to expect folks who didn't understand anything about homosexual orientation in the uh pre-Christian time and in the the first and second centuries after Christ.

[00:05:36]>> They didn't understand it.

[00:05:37]>> They didn't understand what we know now.

[00:05:39]So the gay community have a better understanding than the prophets and the apostles.

[00:05:43]>> We are wrestling with the reality of our lives in light of the gospel and and finding ourselves blessed and and empowered and encouraged and loved by God.

[00:05:55]>> The scripture says this, "Whatsoever things were written before time is written for our learning, >> that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope."

[00:06:06]So if God intended and wanted men to marry men, it would have been written so we can learn it's right.

[00:06:14]>> It would have been written. [applause] SO HOW HOW CAN you make it special for self?

[00:06:24]>> Oh no.

[00:06:25]>> And saying that you are justified in laying with a man when you're married.

[00:06:32]How is that act script scripturally >> justified? BECAUSE SEE, WE GOT TO GOD IS INVOLVED IN HERE.

[00:06:42]>> BECAUSE JUST TO SAY THAT IT'S justifiable for men to lay with men if you marry, would you convey that message? If you got two 16year-old boys somewhere and the government will permit them to marry wherever they at, you would encourage two young boys or two young men to have sex with one another.

[00:07:05]>> I would I would not encourage people who are too young to have responsible sex to have sex with each other. I I 16y old age man can lay with a man. I don't know when [laughter] you know 18 works for the for the consensus of the of the country. So 18 that people should be able to make decisions about whom they would partner with >> regardless of what the Bible said >> pastor in light of all that the Bible says.

[00:07:34]>> Ignore it.

[00:07:35]>> No. In light of all >> that's what you're telling.

[00:07:36]>> No I'm not.

[00:07:37]>> That's what you tell I'm not.

[00:07:38]>> THAT'S WHAT YOU TELL THEM.

[00:07:40]>> No I'm not.

[00:07:40]>> Dr. Not you are telling the people in despite of what the Bible said wherever you feel go for it.

[00:07:48]>> No no no what no I'm not what I am saying to you and and everyone else who will listen >> is the Bible encourages us not encourages but commands us >> yes >> to love God first >> right >> and other people as ourselves. All right.

[00:08:05]>> Now, if I love a potential partner as I love myself, >> Mhm.

[00:08:12]>> I would do nothing to dishonor him or hurt him or make him less than human.

[00:08:17]>> If >> if and and all that I do with him should be done in the light of my mutual love for him and my love for God, just as I hope uh all of you do in in heterosexual relationships. and and >> Mhm.

[00:08:34]>> Uh to say otherwise is that is sin.

[00:08:38]>> All right. Let me hold you on one statement you made >> that when you be with him, you won't you don't do anything to dishonor him.

[00:08:46]>> That's correct.

[00:08:46]>> Right.

[00:08:47]>> Let's compare your statement with the book.

[00:08:49]>> Amen.

[00:08:50]>> Let's see when he's with a man, is he dishonoring him?

[00:08:54]>> Even when he's being nice. That's right.

[00:08:56]>> Even when he's being consensual, even when he agreed.

[00:08:59]>> Amen.

[00:08:59]>> Let's see. Is that the act of dishonor?

[00:09:01]Romans chapter 1 and at verse 24.

[00:09:04]>> Listen.

[00:09:04]>> Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness.

[00:09:08]>> Wherefore God gave them up >> to go to verse 22.

[00:09:11]>> And verse 22.

[00:09:12]>> You see, I just believe all the book.

[00:09:17]>> And if we going to believe what's in the book, >> Mhm. That's the purpose of, you know, you go to churches, preachers, you know, they claim they got Bibles up on the podium. You're not going to believe what's in there. They don't need to have it up there. That's right. Listen closely.

[00:09:31]>> Proverbs rather Romans chapter 1 and verse 22.

[00:09:34]>> Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools. What is it?

[00:09:38]>> And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God >> into an image made like to corruptible man. And the birds and for-footed beasts and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up >> to what?

[00:09:48]>> To uncleanness.

[00:09:50]>> Now the Bible establishing an act that's unclean.

[00:09:53]>> All right. Therefore, God also gave them up to uncleanness through [laughter] the lust of their own hearts >> the lust the desires of their own wants their heart >> to dishonor >> to dishonor >> their own bodies >> their own bodies >> between themselves >> between themselves >> who changed the truth of God into a lie >> holy the truth is the woman was made for THE MAN >> THAT'S THE TRUTH [applause] >> and the scripture says you seek You could change it.

[00:10:24]>> Change it. That's right.

[00:10:25]>> Now, if you're changing it, you're making man for man, woman for woman. The scripture says they seek to change the truth >> of God >> of God >> into a lie.

[00:10:36]>> into a lie.

[00:10:38]>> Listen.

[00:10:38]>> To dishonor their own bodies between themselves who changed the truth of God into a lie and worshiped and served the creature more than the creator >> who is blessed forever. Amen.

[00:10:48]>> As a result of that, what did God say?

[00:10:50]For this cause God gave them up unto vile affection.

[00:10:54]>> What is that vile affection that God is speaking of?

[00:10:57]>> For even their women did change the natural use into that which >> hold it. What is the natural use?

[00:11:03]>> Amen.

[00:11:04]>> The natural use for the woman is what?

[00:11:07]>> The man.

[00:11:08]>> AND THE SCRIPTURE DEALING WITH changing natural use.

[00:11:11]>> That's right. Listen.

[00:11:12]>> For even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature.

[00:11:20]against written.

[00:11:22]>> DO YOU BELIEVE THAT? That if a man loveth a man or a woman with a woman, it's against nature.

[00:11:29]>> I do not believe it.

[00:11:30]>> So this is a lie.

[00:11:31]>> That is not true.

[00:11:32]>> Who changed the truth of God into a lie?

[00:11:35]>> That's what you're doing.

[00:11:36]>> Because I don't believe that the Apostle Paul had any concept any concept. [clears throat] >> Paul >> Paul had any concept. No, no, let me finish. Oh yeah, just finish. Do >> let let me tell you one thing first foremost. I'm not a I'm not a a doctor of ministry or a PhD. I don't know where we decided I was Dr. Knox. I appreciate the honor, but it's not due me. I didn't earn.

[00:12:00]>> How about just Harry?

[00:12:01]>> Good old Harry.

[00:12:06]>> All right.

[00:12:08]Paul did not have any idea of the the kind of love that I feel for a partner when I am partnered. He didn't he didn't know what that was about. Now, you know, it's easy for you to laugh it off because for you it seems most natural. It is for you natural.

[00:12:30]>> No, wait. No, no, no. Come on now. Come on.

[00:12:32]>> I don't want you to misinterpret what I'm laughing about.

[00:12:34]>> Well, I I don't take it personally. I don't I don't hear you laughing at me, but but but let me say this.

[00:12:38]>> All right. Go ahead.

[00:12:39]>> You consider it unnatural because it's not natural for you.

[00:12:43]>> It ain't natural for God.

[00:12:44]>> Oh, >> the straight man, the heterosexual man who got the privilege of writing the book, the educated, rich heterosexual man, Paul, who got to write the book.

[00:12:57]>> Mhm.

[00:12:59]>> Didn't think it was natural cuz for him it must not have been.

[00:13:02]>> So, you see Lord on his own. I'm telling you for me it is natural.

[00:13:06]>> All right.

[00:13:07]>> And when that when those two things disagree when my experience not outside of the love of God but inside the love of God and constant companionship with God, constant talking with God about it, begging God to make it different. If it's wrong, God, everybody else says it is, and I don't want to do this. Change me. Not being changed. Not even being changed a little, but in fact being embraced by the love that says, "I made you this way."

[00:13:37]>> And he's all right to do.

[00:13:38]>> And it not only all right, it's God's will.

[00:13:41]>> It's God's will for you to lay for me to lay with a man if he and I love each other and care for each other and are committed to each other. Now, now I have to say >> I I wish I could say I wish it were as easy as turning to my book in the Bible that was written by one of my people, you know, that was that was uh uh written to really address this issue. I wish it were that easy.

[00:14:04]>> So, you saying that Paul was just close-minded and just have no understanding about gay issues at all? I totally disagree.

[00:14:12]>> Amen.

[00:14:12]>> Because the book says this. Give me the book of uh Romans. Let's see how the scriptures come about. Amen.

[00:14:18]>> The book tells us, in fact, it lets us know, we're going to go to Romans, then we're going to go TO PETER, THAT ALL SCRIPTURE, >> ALL OF THE SCRIPTURE, NOT SOME of it, >> ALL BUT ALL scripture are given >> by the inspiration of God.

[00:14:39]>> And his Lord, listen at this >> in 2 Timothy chapter 3.

[00:14:43]>> 2 Timothy chapter 3 >> and verse 16. And verse 16, >> all scripture, >> how much?

[00:14:47]>> All scripture, >> all scripture, how they come about, >> is given by inspiration of God.

[00:14:53]>> It ain't talking about a bunch of rich men, >> a bunch of male showing this men >> or heterosexual. That was irrelevant.

[00:15:00]>> That's right.

[00:15:01]>> It says all scripture are given by the inspiration of God. And when we use THE INSPIRED SCRIPTURE, WHAT do we formulate?

[00:15:09]>> And it's profitable for doctrine.

[00:15:11]>> When you stick with the scriptures, your doctrine will be right >> for reproof. Your reproof will be correct >> for correction.

[00:15:16]>> What?

[00:15:16]>> For correction.

[00:15:18]>> CORRECTION.

[00:15:18]>> CORRECTION. [applause] >> WHAT ELSE?

[00:15:20]>> For instruction.

[00:15:22]>> Instruction >> in righteousness >> in what's right.

[00:15:25]>> That the man of God may be perfect, >> complete, >> thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

[00:15:29]>> So Paul didn't write that on his own.

[00:15:32]>> You can't say that Paul wrote it on. He was divinely inspired.

[00:15:36]>> Knowing this first, >> the Bible said, "Knowing this first >> in second Peter chapter uh 1 and verse 20." Listen.

[00:15:42]>> Knowing this first, >> it's the first thing that God wants you to know.

[00:15:45]>> Knowing this first that what?

[00:15:47]>> That no prophecy OF THE SCRIPTURES, >> NO PROPHECY, >> NO PROPHECY, >> NOTHING WRITTEN IN THE scriptures >> is of any private interpretation.

[00:15:55]>> So you can't say Paul wrote IT ON HIS OWN. [applause] NOW, [cheering] brother pastor, the last thing that I would say about Paul was that he was not inspired by God and a and a man of God and that the words that he wrote were put down for our uh use and edification, not our use on our own behalf, but for God's use in telling us how to live our lives. You and I agree about that. Now, let me let me let me have my turn.

[00:16:22]>> Go ahead, brother.

[00:16:24]There are so many scriptures in the Bible that are contradictory to other things in the Bible or for which we feel we or beyond which we feel we have grown in our understanding of a simplistic interpretation.

[00:16:44]>> Let me ask you if you're going to condemn my folks to hell. Now this is serious business. It's not just you and I disagree about a political topic or something like that. You and I understand that the the the the the stakes are the highest.

[00:16:57]>> Mhm.

[00:16:58]>> If you're going to tell me that my people are going to hell based on uh these things, which again I gave other uh information about that is not as simplistic as how you've laid it out here.

[00:17:09]>> Before you lay out of it, no, I want to ask you because cuz uh cuz it's important to remember.

[00:17:15]>> Okay.

[00:17:17]What do you say about a scripture that says, "Slaves, obey your masters."

[00:17:22]>> It's simple. It's to the point. It's clear.

[00:17:26]>> Mhm.

[00:17:27]>> What What do you say about something like that? Let me give you some other examples. I want you I'm sure you got an answer to that one, but let me give you some others. I'm sure.

[00:17:35]>> Now, let me give you some others.

[00:17:36]>> What do you say to the holiness code when it says, "Don't eat lobsters and shrimp. It's an abomination." Mhm.

[00:17:44]>> What do you say to the holiness code when it says don't have sex with your wife who you love when she's menstruating? It's an abomination.

[00:17:52]>> What do you say? Uh, >> anything you pitch we can do.

[00:17:55]>> Okay. I mean, all of those things uh you I believe I don't want to pitch them at you by way of embarrassing you or making you lose a point in this debate. Okay.

[00:18:05]I'm not I'm not trying to embarrass you.

[00:18:07]>> Well, I know. But but but what I say to you about that is this. Why I say it is this.

[00:18:13]you I believe you have to hear all of those texts in light of everything else is in that's in the book that's in the Bible.

[00:18:22]>> All of the messages of God standing on the on the the side of people who are misunderstood or powerless or strangers.

[00:18:32]All of the things that that that the Bible says about Jesus decisions to eat with people who were sinners and and not to justify their sin. I don't say that.

[00:18:41]But, you know, to to say to people, "Come and be with me."

[00:18:45]>> Exactly.

[00:18:46]>> You know, uh, I know you're not understood by everybody else, but I understand you.

[00:18:51]>> Mhm.

[00:18:52]>> What? All of that has to be a part of the mix. The love of God, the the not just the condemnation of sin, God will convict us. If if if we're wrong, God will convict us in our hearts. The other piece that for me is a proof, not just what's in the text, >> the other things almost in the scriptures.

[00:19:12]>> No, I don't. And I and you and I probably disagree about this. I'm >> assuming the scripture to justify yourself.

[00:19:16]>> I I justify things that I believe in through four different things.

[00:19:21]>> What are they?

[00:19:22]>> The scriptures are first always the tradition of the church. What we have learned from being the body of Christ together for many many centuries.

[00:19:31]>> My experience, my experience I believe is a gift of God to me and to all of us. And God says that it is.

[00:19:42]>> And the reason that God has given me, the the ability to reason and think things through, all four of those things from my tradition, the Wesleyan tradition, the United Methodist tradition in which I grew up, have value, not equal, not equal. The scriptures are more important, the the spirit is more important than experience or reason, but all of those things are important. And it's just not kind finally >> for people who I'm not.

[00:20:12]>> If you're saying the scriptures is more important than the things that you just mentioned, >> then why do you diminish the importance of the scriptures? I'm saying you don't believe them.

[00:20:22]>> Oh, I don't I don't say that. What I'm saying is when I studied Romans, I didn't stop with 126 and 27.

[00:20:30]>> We're not going to stop there.

[00:20:30]>> I went through the whole thing. You know, when I studied Leviticus 18:22, I studied the whole holiness code. And what I learned about it was God calls us to be special and chosen to be to live differently from the people who are not believers around.

[00:20:46]>> God have chose the gay community to live differently.

[00:20:48]>> No, by us I mean believers. All all of us who are Christians.

[00:20:52]>> So a a Christian supposed to live their life like Christ >> as much as we can. Sure.

[00:20:57]>> So if we going to strive to live like Christ, was Christ gay? Christ was not married. Christ, you know, Christ, as far as I can tell in the scriptures, never had sex with anyone. We don't know.

[00:21:08]>> Does the scripture say, does the scripture teach that Christ will marry the church?

[00:21:12]>> It does. It's it does.

[00:21:14]>> Is the church called wife?

[00:21:17]>> Yes. By authors again, by authors who [applause] understood a a a maledominated society with which I I simply don't think the Bible. If >> you want to deal with Christ marri, we can deal with that. The scriptures talk about how Christ will present unto himself a glorious church and compare the presentation of the church to Christ >> and compared to the presentation of Eve to Adam, does it not?

[00:21:39]>> So if it was God's will for men to sleep with men, for the Christian community that are looking to the gay community that are listening and watching, all we're asking is if if it's God will >> and if it's justified by heaven, because there is no greater justification than what comes from heaven, >> right?

[00:21:57]Then let us go to the scriptures and see where do God justify us. You keep telling me that this is uh I feel as though I feel as though give me the prophet Isaiah.

[00:22:09]>> Mhm.

[00:22:09]>> I want to compare his feelings with God feelings.

[00:22:12]>> Mhm.

[00:22:13]>> I want to compare his thoughts with God's thoughts.

[00:22:15]>> Amen.

[00:22:16]>> I want to see does God feel about things the way he does.

[00:22:19]>> Right.

[00:22:20]>> Let's listen to what God said.

[00:22:21]>> Amen. God Almighty said, "My thoughts >> are not your thoughts >> are not are not Isaiah chapter 55." Isaiah chapter 55 and we'll begin at verse 7.

[00:22:33]>> Let the wicked forsake his way.

[00:22:34]>> You hear that?

[00:22:36]>> Let the wicked leave his way >> and the unrighteous man his thoughts.

[00:22:40]>> Now you're referring to your thoughts and saying that you think that you're justified >> to do this.

[00:22:46]>> Mhm.

[00:22:46]>> And the Lord said, "Forsake your thoughts."

[00:22:48]>> That's right.

[00:22:48]>> Listen.

[00:22:49]>> And let him return unto the Lord. Go to the Lord >> and he will have mercy upon him.

[00:22:53]>> May he be merciful unde >> and to our God for he will abundantly pardon for my thoughts are not your thoughts.

[00:22:59]>> God don't think like you do.

[00:23:01]>> Let me let me give you Jesus word on this. In in Luke 12, the Pharisees come at him with this kind of an argument.

[00:23:10]>> Okay.

[00:23:11]>> They're going to try to trick him.

[00:23:12]They're going to try to trip him up.

[00:23:14]>> All right.

[00:23:14]>> And he tells him a parable.

[00:23:16]>> Mhm. And then finally in frustration, it's it's clear from the way the the text is written. He looks at him and he says,"Wh don't you just judge for yourself what is right?"

[00:23:31]>> Mhm. That's what Jesus said.

[00:23:32]>> That's what Jesus says. And what he means by that is not based on your own desires, of course.

[00:23:39]>> Mhm.

[00:23:39]>> But he says, "I've been telling you the truth.

[00:23:43]I've been telling you the truth and of course you're going to find a way to trip somebody up.

[00:23:50]>> So you're saying you're Jesus and I'm trying to find a way to trip you up.

[00:23:54]That's what you're saying.

[00:23:55]>> I believe anybody who would watch from my this program from my perspective would think you're trying to trip me up.

[00:24:00]But that's all right. Make it clear.

[00:24:02]That's not what I'm trying to do. I I this whole discussion I'm the only one running to the scripture to justify WHAT I'M SAYING. [applause] TRYING TO SIT NOBODY.

[00:24:13]>> And brother pastor, I am not saying to you that I feel at all defensive about this. I don't feel afraid or or worried about any of this.

[00:24:23]I serve a Christ who is alive.

[00:24:28]Who is alive.

[00:24:30]Everything Christ intends to say, Christ has not yet said. I don't believe it. I see the evidence. I see the evidence in the early church. Let me go to the Bible. Let me >> take my little proof text.

[00:24:44]>> I go to Acts 10. I go to Acts 15.

[00:24:48]>> And people there have this kind of conversation with each other. And the and the Jewish Christians, the Jerusalem Christians say, "It's clear in the book.

[00:24:57]It's clear in the book. You must be circumcised. You must be.

[00:25:01]>> You cannot eat all of these certain kinds of foods. It's clear in the book."

[00:25:05]And they they do this kind of conversation. And Peter stands up and he says, "Friends, it just doesn't match with my experience of Cornelius."

[00:25:15]And Paul and Barnabas come down from Antioch and and and Cissia and they say, "It doesn't match with our experience there." The Gentiles are filled with the Holy Spirit. You can't believe the work that's going on there. And they're so excited about it that that the the Jerusalem church picks up a delegation and they send them off to Cissia and Syria and and Antioch to see the great things that are happening. Now, for the pastor, Jesus says, "Why don't you decide for yourself? We've given you all of this >> teaching. All of it. And you're going to be better than I am at finding another text, another text, another text." You are. I'm telling you.

[00:25:54]>> What's the job of the minister? Isn't the job of the ministers to point the people to the scriptures?

[00:25:58]>> It is not our job to get up and give opinions and personal views how we feel as though what should be, what shouldn't be. If we're saying we're ministers of Christ, it is our job to take the people to the scriptures so they can believe.

[00:26:11]>> It is, but it's also our job. It is also clearly our job to invite the Holy Spirit into the into the mix into the conversation.

[00:26:18]>> Well, if I'm in the scripture and I'm dealing with the Holy Spirit, >> Jesus said, "The words that I speak, they are spirit and they are But you but I you and I simply disagree if you believe that the spirit stopped speaking when the Roman church decided in the 4th century that this was the book we were going to have. God did not stop. No, no, no. God did not stop speaking to us though. God in the tradition of the church said to us, "This is enough now.

[00:26:47]>> It's not everything. It's not every single word it does. It says there's all that you need here." That's how I hear the text that that you had read.

[00:26:55]>> All right.

[00:26:55]>> Everything you need is here.

[00:26:57]>> Mhm.

[00:26:58]>> But it's not going to say we prescribe these things for every issue. I've got a prescription for every single thing that's going to come up. What it says is and Jesus in his great promise as as he's ready to ascend says, "I'm not going to leave you comfortless.

[00:27:16]I'm not going to leave you to your own devices. And I'm not going to leave you just with what you've got by way of scripture to lean back on because the people he was talking to didn't even have the scriptures at that time.

[00:27:28]>> So what did Jesus left for the comforter? The Holy Spirit.

[00:27:31]>> The Holy Spirit. The comforter. And he said, "Look, >> it's here. I am not it. I >> am here through the spirit."

[00:27:39]>> And I'm telling you, brother pastor, >> I hear the love that you have for gay people in your call to repentance. I hear it. I feel it. You and I have talked before today. I wouldn't be here if I wasn't confident in in your concern for all of us.

[00:27:53]>> I I wouldn't be here. I simply wouldn't have dignified the meeting with my with my presence, you know.

[00:27:59]>> But Jesus has been talking to us and we're bringing you a message like Paul brought like Peter brought to the >> read to us what Jesus is telling y'all.

[00:28:10]>> Paul and Peter, I'm telling I'm actually listen to what I'm saying. Paul and Peter didn't have a text to read either.

[00:28:17]Well, the thing is they scripture here.

[00:28:20]The scriptures are already written. So if Jesus is talking to you and to say Paul didn't have a text, yes, they did.

[00:28:26]They had the prophets.

[00:28:27]>> That's right. They did.

[00:28:28]>> They had the prophets and it was written. Now, if you say Jesus is talking to you now, then please show the world where Jesus is talking to you from.

[00:28:39]>> He's talking to me from the entirety of the book, Brother Pastor. From the entire book. Did he say anything to you that it was all right for you to lay with the man somewhere in the book? Been that he's talking to you from the entirety of the book. JUST SHOW ME ONE LITTLE SECTION OF THE book >> and let Jesus talk.

[00:29:00]JESUS, [applause] >> I want to hear.

[00:29:06]>> Harry, >> I'm saying to you, brother pastor, >> I want to hear him. Harry, >> brother, pastor, I do not I I cannot point to a place in the book and I would not presume to tell you that I could.

[00:29:18]>> Then how can you just talk about God so loosely and then say that it is justified in God eyes? How can you say that about God?

[00:29:29][laughter] >> Listen, this is very serious.

[00:29:30]>> It is very serious.

[00:29:31]>> GOD IS NOT A MAN. That's right.

[00:29:33]>> AND WE CAN'T DEAL WITH him like he is a man. That's right. So, HOW CAN YOU JUST SAY, "WELL, GOD IS PLEASED WITH ME." HOW DO YOU KNOW? THE BIBLE SAID, "PROVE ALL THINGS."

[00:29:43]>> THAT'S RIGHT.

[00:29:45]>> And the scriptures call this a infallible PROOF.

[00:29:49]>> SO, YOU JUST CAN'T OFF THE WALL AND SAY, "WELL, IT'S ALL RIGHT WITH GOD. HOW DO we know >> this?" Brother Pastor, >> come on, Harry. You got to do better than that. My I'm doing >> your soul is at stake.

[00:30:05]>> My soul is at stake and I have staked my soul on this on what I'm about to say to you.

[00:30:10]>> All right.

[00:30:11]>> I've read the whole book.

[00:30:13]>> Understand what thou readest.

[00:30:15]>> I have read the whole book. I have sought understanding. I haven't stopped with just the English translation. I haven't stopped with just what my my one pastor said. You read?

[00:30:24]>> I I read enough of it to make it work. I >> Does Greek justify men with men? What Greek what Greek says to me is that the places in the book that that are used against us are not as clear as a lot of people want to make them out to be. Now I said in the Leviticus code it's clear >> but it was a matter of purity for the Jews for which we simply don't ask people we about which we don't ask people to live up anymore to which we don't ask people to live up anymore to all of those that long list of things.

[00:30:54]>> We just deal with one thing. Well, but you're dealing with the thing that applies to me and not to you.

[00:31:00]>> Now, now you know, Pastor Jennings, I've got to come back and say, >> we have to hear this in community.

[00:31:10]>> This message has to be heard in community with our brothers and sisters.

[00:31:14]>> The message is going to come from the book >> where >> from the whole book >> where >> I don't Well, we must be we must be on a securous route. Let's let's back up.

[00:31:24]I am not saying to you that non-gay people that heterosexual people who didn't have an understanding of what homosexual orientation is or is about sat down and included us in the book.

[00:31:38]They simply did not.

[00:31:39]>> You're not in the book.

[00:31:40]>> The in the book >> not not in not specifically.

[00:31:43]>> Not specifically as No, by that I mean to justify uh sexual activity between men. I'm not going to say that it's there. What I'm saying to you is there are more overriding principles in the book that we use for every other topic under the sun except this one. The church is holding gay people to a higher standard, a different standard than it is on lots of other issues.

[00:32:09]>> How is how are you being held to a different standard? The standard of God was woman made for the man.

[00:32:18]>> That's right.

[00:32:19]>> That was God's standard.

[00:32:21]You're trying to produce and uphold a different standard, >> right?

[00:32:26]>> I'm trying to just deal with the standard that God have already established. You and your community is trying to bring about in fact Paul said to change >> that which is against nature. You're trying to change it.

[00:32:41]>> And and and if it's God's will, >> then it should BE ALL RIGHT FOR ME TO DO IT. It it's well, it should be all right for you to do it if it's natural for you to do it. If it is it is your orientation.

[00:32:54]>> If it's natural, wouldn't wouldn't God have allowed natural men in the book to do such an act? Because you must admit EVERYWHERE IN THE BOOK where the act is done, God want to destroy them. God is against it. God sent the prophets or an apostle or a messenger to speak out against it. That's right.

[00:33:16]>> WHERE IN THE ALL RIGHT. I tell you what been that you just don't want to deal with THE BIBLE. LET'S DEAL WITH other books, >> right?

[00:33:23]>> You familiar with the Quran?

[00:33:24]>> I'm not.

[00:33:25]>> All right.

[00:33:27]Well, the Jews use the Old Testament, the Torah. Are you familiar with that?

[00:33:30]>> I am. Is it anywhere in the Torah or as the many Christians said today the gospels where it is God will where you are justified by heaven and where you will be saved for marrying a man was sleeping with the man.

[00:33:47]>> I again brother pastor we simply disagree about the >> it's not an abomination.

[00:33:53]>> Paul said if you're going to live by the jot and tit of the law you're going to miss the point. God's law is love.

[00:34:03]And if you say to someone who is as constitutionally homosexual >> as you are constitutionally heterosexual, Harry, you simply can't do it because I can't find you anywhere in the book. And I can find a couple of places where uh non-gay people made the rules, interpreted the will of God, and they wrote something down in here. And it I know it's not really about you, Harry.

[00:34:30]You know, I I I don't dispute that uh the impurity comes from having done these acts in front of idols in the Old Testament. Those texts are about horrible, vile things that were done in front of idols. They don't have any reference, and this is what I mean when I say they don't mean homosexuality.

[00:34:48]They don't have any reference to a loving, mutually consensual relationship. That's not addressed in the book. That is not condemned in the book. Well, okay. Let me let me finish out. We we do disagree about that >> cuz I can show you otherwise. You're talking about a loving mutual relationship, a justifiable relationship. The only justifiable relationship in the scriptures, the scriptures planning to say, let me ask you something. Was a man made for the man.

[00:35:15]>> Come on, Harry.

[00:35:16]>> In my in my experience, >> there were some who were made for man. for your experience with a higher mind.

[00:35:28]>> God.

[00:35:29]>> God.

[00:35:30]>> You love God, Harry.

[00:35:31]>> I love him.

[00:35:32]>> You love him?

[00:35:32]>> I love him.

[00:35:33]>> You want to live for him >> more than anything else?

[00:35:36]>> Are you willing to die for him?

[00:35:38]>> I have been close to it. Yes.

[00:35:40]>> All right. Now, let's eliminate your mind and my mind.

[00:35:44]>> Right.

[00:35:44]>> The mind of God.

[00:35:47]Did God make man for man or did he created the woman for the man?

[00:35:55]Pastor, >> come on. Harry, >> you're shout you're shouting at me now.

[00:36:00]>> You're shouting at me. And I'm telling you, in all Christian love >> Yes.

[00:36:05]>> in all Christian love.

[00:36:06]>> Yes.

[00:36:07]>> And in all respect for the text, >> Mhm.

[00:36:11]>> I know something that the people who wrote the text simply didn't know.

[00:36:16]>> Let's talk now. Now, it doesn't, you know, I I don't know.

[00:36:21]>> That's right.

[00:36:21]>> You're deeper than them. on one topic that is true for me and for millions of other like others like you >> in deep within the prophets.

[00:36:30]>> I we simply have we simply have a different we have a different knowledge >> come back and ask brother Harry >> I don't heard your mind >> let's refer to the mind of God.

[00:36:43]>> Amen. I ask you, did did God make man for the man or did God make woman for the man? Eliminate personal feelings. I feel as though Let's eliminate my feelings and yours.

[00:36:56]>> I I simply think that's a false choice, pastor.

[00:36:58]>> A false choice. It's a false about God.

[00:37:01]>> Come on, Harry.

[00:37:02]>> It's a false choice.

[00:37:03]>> You're making me shout.

[00:37:06]>> It's a false choice. And here's why.

[00:37:08][applause] Here's why. You are asking me. You are asking me if according to the book if if according to the book if that was my only source of information is man made for woman.

[00:37:24]>> Do you got a source of information is that >> I say to you that God has given us all two gifts that we that we dare not throw back at God.

[00:37:36]>> Two gifts.

[00:37:37]>> Two gifts. The Holy Spirit >> and our own experience and reason.

[00:37:42]>> Mhm. Now, are they more important than what's in the book? No.

[00:37:46]>> Then why you keep bringing them up?

[00:37:48]>> Because they are as important as is in the book as as the book. And >> so our experience and the book just as important as >> and the book speaks to them both. It is an entirety of relationship with God that I call my Christians brother, my brothers and sisters to experience.

[00:38:06]entire an entire experience with God that's not about a list of rules, a list of rules, but a list of guidelines that are given to us in love with the help of the teacher offered us every day. every day >> the teacher >> the teacher Christ Jesus through the spirit >> through the spirit >> he's going to teach us through the text and the spirit and our experience >> lead you any direction that contradicts scripture >> if I believed that it contradicted scripture in its entirety brother pastor I would still be on my knees about this thing begging for begging for forgiveness you believe the Holy Spirit will lead us to go against scripture in any form >> I I don't I simply don't believe that what I do does that.

[00:38:54]>> Even though the scripture plainly states that let a man leave father and mother and cleave >> to his wife >> to his wife.

[00:39:06]Can a man be a wife?

[00:39:09]>> No.

[00:39:11]So if a man cannot be a wife, [applause] if a man cannot be a wife and two men getting married is husband and husband.

[00:39:23]Bring it up, Harry. At >> our in our [applause] >> in our experience in the gay community, we we wrestle with language all the time.

[00:39:36]>> Okay.

[00:39:37]>> And we don't often use h we don't always use husband and husband or wife and wife. Some of us do, some of us don't.

[00:39:43]Others uh believe the word partner to be better because we understand that this is not about domination of one person over another and that is the source of the word husband for instance. There's a lot involved in this. To husband is to care for and to own >> and to protect >> and to protect and to do all of those things. But that's not our view of what the of where the Bible talks about uh uh what marriage ought to look like, what relationship ought to look like. We believe now that again in the entirety of the book and in the entirety of our experience and in all that we have learned women should not be subject to men exclusively.

[00:40:25]>> But we ain't talking about women. We talking about too many.

[00:40:28]>> And and you're asking me about a definition of marriage and wife. And you said, is a man can a man be a wife? And I would say to you, I don't want to be another man's wife and I don't want a wife. I want a mutual partner. If the word wife is about subjugation, being beneath, and being a servant to, I'm just not looking for that in a relationship.

[00:40:47]>> Is marriage sanctioned by God?

[00:40:49]>> I believe that it is.

[00:40:50]>> All marriage is sanctioned by God >> as opposed to what?

[00:40:54]>> If the marriage contradicts the principle of scriptural law, would you say it's sanctioned by God?

[00:41:02]Well, again, I I just think it's a circuitous argument. Of course, I think >> you don't believe the scriptures.

[00:41:07]>> I believe them. I believe all of them. I listen to all of them. And I hear with equal authority.

[00:41:14]With equal authority, >> a scripture that says, "Let no man call unclean what God calls clean."

[00:41:21]>> Did God ever call your clean? I'm telling you he has told me so in my experience and in the experience of millions of other Christian believers who are homos.

[00:41:31]>> So you mean to tell me you're the only person in this building that God told what you do is clean.

[00:41:36]>> Well I don't know the hearts and minds and and here God tell it WAS CLEAN.

[00:41:42]>> GOD told you >> it was clean sir.

[00:41:44]>> Yes.

[00:41:45]>> He told you that if what Harry do if you live with the man was to clean.

[00:41:49]>> Okay. Let's see what the Bible says.

[00:41:52]>> Proverbs chapter 16 and at verse two.

[00:41:54]>> What is it?

[00:41:55]>> All the ways of a man, >> what is it?

[00:41:58]>> Are clean in his own eyes.

[00:42:02]>> But the LORD is >> but the Lord >> But the Lord >> weighs the spirits.

[00:42:11]>> That's the problem. Say say the last you get eye on so you