DK Reading Club: Bridging Cultures: Ismaili Influences on the Swahili Coast

Ajouté : 2026-05-07

[00:00:11]Yali mother and good evening. My name is ASF and I'm part of the London Darakana Jamaat Kana reading club team. On behalf of Treb UK, I'd like to warmly welcome you to this evening's event titled Bridging Cultures: Ismiley Influences on the Swahili Coast with Professor Stefan Prain.

[00:00:34]Professor Stfan Puin is an archaeologist and professor of Islamic Art and Architecture at the Aakhan University Institute for the Study of Muslim Civilizations aka ISMC in London.

[00:00:51]He directed the excavations of the Fathimid and Aubid walls of Cairo as well as a range of archaeological projects across the Indian Ocean region including in the Maldes and in East African countries such as Kenya, Tanzania and the Kumoros.

[00:01:12]Professor Puin is a specialist in medieval trade in the Indian Ocean and is an authority on Swahili archaeology and architecture.

[00:01:26]He's also an expert in the Muslim material culture of war with a particular focus on military architecture, arms and armor.

[00:01:37]From 2008 to 2015, Professor Prain co-directed an international research program on war in the medieval Middle East organized by the Institute France, the Archaeology Oriental, AFO, the French Institute of Archaeology in Egypt, the IFAO, and the Institute France dropp the Institute for the Near East in Beirut and Damascus, the IFPO.

[00:02:14]Since 2000, Professor Padin has collaborated with various NOS's on heritage preservation and the conservation of monuments and historic sites. His work includes major projects with the Yagakhan Trust for Culture in Cairo and Lahore, UNESCO and the World Monuments Fund focusing on Swahili states such as Kilwa and Kuwa in Tanzania as well as the Coral Stone Mosques of the Maldives.

[00:02:48]He is the author and editor of numerous publications among them earthn architecture in Muslim cultures 2017 Alex oriental de pier li pier l's collection of oriental weapons 2019 ports and forts of the muslims coastal military architecture 2020 historic mosques in subsaharan in Africa 2022, Muslim cultures in the Indian Ocean 2023 and most recently Mayott Khalif may in the time of the Khalif 2024.

[00:03:36]He'll be joined today by Shahira Pasnani, a Jeepish graduate who's a heritage professional focused on the historic environment and sustainable development. She holds an MSE in architectural conservation from the University of Edinburgh. Her past work includes documenting the heritage of the ismiley community in Guadada, Pakistan.

[00:03:59]She currently works at Historic England in New York and she also consults for leads industrial museums on an industrial heritage exhibition.

[00:04:09]Additionally, she serves as library manager and arts and heritage lead for ITRB UK in the Midlands and North regions.

[00:04:18]May I now invite both Professor Pradine and Shahira to take the floor. Thank you. [applause] Thank you very much for your very kind introduction. U ladies and gentlemen uh good evening. Asalam alaikum. So I would like to thank uh to thanks first Alcarim Natu Shan Ka Karima sorry Ismael and Narida Hmed for their kind invitation and of course Shirai.

[00:05:06]So tonight in 25 um minutes 30 minutes I will talk about um Ismile influencers in East Africa on the Sui coast. So mainly Somalia, Kenya, Tanzania, Comro and Madagascar.

[00:05:22]So I will try to pick up few examples of the ismile influencers in East Africa probably from a perspective that you are not aware or maybe you know but maybe not from a perspective from a specialist perspective. So I will speak about very early Smiley influences in East Africa and not only the late history that you probably know from 18th or 19th cent century you know in Zanziba or Mombasa.

[00:05:54]So let's start by a very quick introduction about Indian Oceanian cultures. As you may know um the swale coast the sui in fact it's a culture it's a bondu culture so it's an African culture and the sui are of course Africans but they are also a population of people who share a lot of common um um a culture who is also an Indian Oceanian culture. So basically the swaley who are located in east Africa have a lot of in common with people from the other side of the Indian Ocean in the western Indian Ocean. So basically the Swi share a lot of things with people from the Arabian Peninsula Yemen Oman but also Bahin and the Gulf up to Iran with the Shirazi and also of course with people from India. When I say India it's India at large. So basically not uh Pakistan and India not um today's uh today's India um India at large in the in the definition of the medieval period so basically today's two countries Pakistan and India so especially with the sind and the gujarat so as you can see on this map you can see the different uh trade routes that we have in in the Indian Ocean and you can see that the swaley coast was very much connected with the rest of the Muslim world, not only with the Arabian Peninsula as I mentioned previously or also with India but also with Southeast Asia. So basically the people of East Africa, the Sui were connected to different cultures, not only Muslim cultures but also Buddhist cultures, cultures from Southeast Asia and of course China. So what I will try to do tonight is to show you that trade was very important for um the SUI culture but of course for the Ismiley too. Because when we talk about the Ismiley, we think about the Ismiley as um very much connected to the Fatimid dynasty and the Fatimid culture. So basically Tunisia and Egypt. But as you probably know because you are from a different part of the world. You are most probably all British but you have your origin from different part of the world. And you know probably even better than me that the ismiley are all over the world and not only from UK or America, Canada or whatever. So what I will try to show you tonight is to show you that this is diaspora is much much older than the 18th or 19th century but we will go up to the roots of the ismile diaspora since the fatimid period in the Indian Ocean.

[00:08:46]So just very briefly because I'm not trying to convert you you know to be archaeologist or historians but I would like to show you the basic lines of the swi and the east African coast in term of history. So we have let's say roughly for the Islamic period we have different we have different phases with different period we have a period that we can call the period of the exploration or the period of the discovery when um the during the Abbasid caliphate um the Abbasid started to send you know to send uh uh merchants you know and ships all over the Indian Ocean to trade with different cultures. So the ambassad Iraq and Iran and they sent a lot of ships and merchants to travel all over the Indian Ocean to bring a lot of objects and gods to uh to the Persian to the Gulf sorry and to the Abbasid caliphate and I will come back on that later. Then you have another period called the Shirazi period because most of the sweli people especially in the sweli city states because you don't have during the medieval period a sweli kingdom but most of Israeli cities were considered as city states like for example you have the city of Mombasa Vita you had the city of Zanzibar you have the city of Kila and the people from these city these cities were considered as city states like for example you have in Italy you have Venice you know it was a city state and it was all the Israeli cities they were considered as taloscracy. So basically they were cities ruling a small king a small land but they were controlling the trade the maritime trade routts and most of the sweli cities they claim to have a persian origin. So in the swi myth mythical traditions it's very common to say that the sweli they refer to their ancestors as shirazi. So people from Shiraz you know in Iran. Then you have another period called the classic city states the change it was a medieval name for the sui. Then you have the Portuguese period when vasco de gama arrive you know the Europeans discovered the road to India and when Vasco de Gama and the Europeans arrived in East Africa in 1498.

[00:11:07]The Portuguese control the trade in the Indian Ocean for almost 200 years. As you probably know, there are different bays in Mombasa, but also in Goa, you know, in India. And then the Portuguese were expelled from East Africa by the Omani. So in the 18th century and the 19th century, the Omani, the Arabs, they took back, let's say, East Africa from the Portuguese and they settled, especially in the 19th century, and they created the sultenate of Zanzibar in the 19th century. So you have probably short distant memories from ismiley in East Africa dating back from this period from the 18th or the 19th century. And my job as an archaeologist is to bring you back to the fatimate period to show you all the ismiley were very influential and important for the history of the east Africa. So basically the swaley were merchants and traders but not only the sui all the people involved in the trade in the Indian Ocean. So for example in Yemen under the Rasuli dynasty you had people who were in charge you know of this trade in the Red Sea. You had also of course Indian traders in the Gujarat but also Indian traders in the Malabar on the Malabar coast. So all these people were traders and merchants. They were businessmen and they were also sailors and artor. So they had their own boats that we call in East Africa Dao you know or feluca if you wish. uh and they were selling they were the Swey were importing goats manufactured goats.

[00:12:39]So basically they were not producing their own ceramic they produce they produce of course their own African ceramics but they wanted to import some rich manufactured products. So here you can see few products that I found in my excavations in Kenya and Tanzania and Comos. They are mainly ceramics coming from like the black and white black and yellow ceramics from Yemen. You can see a Kashan ceramic, you know, from from Persia, from Iran. You can see some blue and white porcelain. You can see some glass beads coming from some time to time from Murano, you know, in um in Italy through the Red Sea and a lot of textiles from uh uh uh and embroideries coming from India.

[00:13:24]In return, the exported mainly uh raw products. When I mean raw products, mainly natural products. So you here you have for example like animal skins, copal gum uh and of course wood because you know in the Gulf in Kuwait or in in um all the all the all the Gulf they don't have because it's a desert with the Arabian Peninsula they didn't have wood. So most of the swi wood like mongro balls you know and mangrove wood were exported up to the Gulf. You have also turtle scale. But the main the most expensive products that the Swiy were selling to the Abasid caliphate and later to the Fatimid Caliphate. It was these three products. Uh I I put in the products but they are not products. They are human being. But they were exporting mainly gold, ivory and rock crystal. And of course uh I must say that another part of the trade was this infamous trade because also uh slave trade was uh quite common in the Indian Ocean until the 19 until it was forbidden by the British you know in the in the in the early 19th century. So here you can see the what I call the the south roads you know. So basically um the travelers the Fatimids but also before the Abbasids were traveling actually up to Mozambique you know the actual country of Mozanic to the Bay of Sophala because most of the gold mines were located in the country that we call today Zimbabwe and in Zimbabwe they have a lot even today a lot of gold and so the the Muslims were going up to Sofala in Mozambi to bring back this gold through the city via the city of Kilwa that you can see Kilwa is was an important city during the medieval period and but also if you can see there is another road going to uh Koros and then to Madagascar and I will come back on this road later. So let's say very briefly about the early Abbassid contact Abbassid period it's a bit called consider as the golden age you know of the Muslims you know with a lot of scientists and knowledge and so and but it was also a period of discovery so basically the Abbassid they tried to follow the road of the roads of their predecessors for example the Sassan you know Sassanits and they were discovering or rediscovering East Africa it's the reason why some time to time you have depictions you know of East Africa. They are not like exact depictions that we have today but they are more like mythical mythical description of East Africa. One of them you know this uh story very well is a story of Sinbad the sailor. Sinbad the sailor is something was written probably around the time of Arun Rashid and Sinbad the sailor is describing his trip some of his trips to China but also to East Africa. And in the the stories of Simba the sailor is describing you know the mythical rock you know a bird a giant bird was able to carry even elephants. Of course it's not true but we know that in Madagascar a giant ostrich you know giant bird existed during the time of the Abbasid.

[00:16:39]So we have a combination of real stories and mythical stories. It was the time that I call the time of the discovery.

[00:16:48]Then you can see here one of the excavation that I did an excavation in one of the Komo island. You know Komo are free four islands. Three are independent and one it's not my fault it's still French and it's called Mayot.

[00:17:03]And this island of Mayot I did some excavation in the island of Mayot on a very old site called um called Deeni.

[00:17:11]And during excavations in Dembein we found a lot of ceramics from the Abbasid period and then ceramics from the Fatimid period. So this site was a very important site very early because I'm talking about the 9th century until the 12th century and a lot of scholars were talking about this site for example look at this site we found Chinese ceramics from the 11th century. So when people are talking about for example Pakistan and China or Trump you know is a bit stressed you know about Chinese were controlling the trade since at least the 9th or 10th century so I think it's nice to compare a little bit the things and you can see also we found during the the 11 12th century so during the fatimid period a lot of ceramics coming from the Iran you know from Iran so this ach graato and of Of course, we were looking for we were trying to understand why a small site in Comro Island was rich enough to import such a beautiful kind of ceramics from Iran, from China. It's because the people of Comro, they had to offer something in exchange of this beautiful ceramics. And in fact, we we did a very important discovery because we found the origin of the Abbasid and Fatimid rock crystal during O excavations. We found a lot of rock crystal in Mayot.

[00:18:39]But the problem, the point is in Comos you don't have rock crystal. So we did some investigations to understand where this rock crystal was coming from. And in fact the response was not too far.

[00:18:51]Very close. You know the Comro Island is like a bridge between Africa and Madagascar. And in fact in Madagascar you have the most important. Even today the Chinese are going to Madagascar to buy raw crystal. They are the purest and the biggest rock crystals that you can find in the world. And so Madagascar was very well known at least since the Abbasid period and the Fatimid period.

[00:19:15]So the Fatimids were sending some boats, some ships to collect rock crystal from Madagascar to bring back this rock crystal to Cairo. And you can see one of the beautiful results that you have here with this fatime that we have in different museum. There is one you have just across the street.

[00:19:33]you know it's one is in the the VNA another one is in the L. So at least now you can see one reason why the Fatimid went to East Africa. It was about trade.

[00:19:45]It was about bringing back some very important expensive raw material for the caliphate. This is an example about objects. I would like also to bridge with Pakistan. Maybe some of you know a little bit about Pakistan and you have for example near Karachi this beautiful site of Bombore called Debul you know in the medieval period and when you look at Bomb Bomb was occupied since the antiquity and was abandoned in the early 13th century exactly actually like Dembi here you can see one of the I mean is the oldest mosque of the Indian subcontinent built when um uh India was conquered you know by the general I forgot the name of the general and you can see in the museum of bomb the same ceramics that we found in Mayot. So basically both side of the Indian Ocean in East Africa and also in India Pakistan people were sharing the same identity the same kind of object the same kind of ceramics you can see here the Iranian you know achad graphia that we have in East Africa so-called shirazi and we have also the same in Pakistan so let's come back to East Africa with two examples now before I finish my talk I will give you examples of mosque very early mosque from the Sui coast were influenced by the ismiley and I will finish my talk with very early houses um influence soil houses influenced by the ismile. Here you have one of the excavation that I did in East Africa. If you know a little bit east Kenya close to Malindi there is a site of Getty and when we did some excavations we found a great mosque from the 14th century. We excavated the mosque under the mosque of the 14th century we found a mosque of the 13th century and under the mosque of the 13th century you can see in the pit we found one of the oldest mosque in east Africa from the 12th century and according to I mean my articles so I cannot contradict myself but also colleagues uh we think that this mosque because they are very different in size in plan and also orientation they look much more like is smiley mosque but there is also a debate between colleague and I will come back on on this debate later here you can see the plan of the mosque that we excavated with the mosque inside you know and the strategraphy it's like layers it's not like a French3 but you know we have different levels and we it's like that that we can establish you know like chronology with the different uh buildings here you have the biggest medieval mosque in East Africa it's a mosque of Kilwaki Siwani Kilwaki Siwani was the biggest city states in East Africa during the medieval period. Why Kilwakiwani was the biggest city states?

[00:22:37]Because Kilwakiwani was controlling two things. They were controlling the trade of rock crystal coming from Madagascar but also the gold coming from Mozambi.

[00:22:47]And you can see on this plan you have the great mosque of Kilwa. But in red in red it's the the first mosque was built under the Shirazi around the 11th century. And again you have the same kind of plan and the same kind of pattern with the location of Kilwa in the Kilwa Bay close to Kilwa Kisiwani.

[00:23:06]There is a small island called Sanjay Yakati. We did some excavations and we found again a mosque from the 11 12th century. Now about the debate and I think you might be also interested by this point. The earliest mosque built in subsaran Africa were built by ismilei but also by ibadi.

[00:23:27]You know the ibadis coming from now they are based they are mainly in Oman but before you had also ibadi in in Tunisia but also in the saran desert. Why the first mosque in east Africa were built by Ibadi and is because Ibadi and Ismiley were traders. They were businessmen. So they were controlling the trade routes through the Sara for example in West Africa up to Timbuktu and you know West Africa but they were also controlling the roots you know in in the Indian Ocean. So the first Muslim communities in East Africa actually they were ismiley and they were to the opposite of today. Most of the people in East Africa they are Sunni Shafi you know here you can see small some small mosque excavated by a colleague you know an American colleague right in Koros. The same pattern small mosque with a mirror.

[00:24:23]Here you can see if you know Zanzibar to the south of the island of Zanzibar you have a site called Kisim Kazzi. Kisim Kazzi is very interesting because not only the mosque is preserved but the Miab is preserved you know. So we have one of the oldest Miab from the 12th century.

[00:24:40]Then I wanted to mention I know it's a bit out of the topic and I have only few minutes but to mention one example from the 13th century. It's a mosque in Mogadishu in in Somalia Mogadishu. Why?

[00:24:53]Because I know that some of you might be from Indian diaspora. Okay. And it will be wrong to think that Indian influencers stop with the end of the connection, you know, with the fatty and all the ismiley. Indian influencers continued in East Africa after. For example, on this picture, you can see this mosque was built in the 13th century. So it's a Sunni mosque if you wish. But the rich Emir you know of Moadisho in Somalia had enough money to import some white marble inscription from Gujarat. So these inscriptions were imported from Gujarat to East Africa.

[00:25:32]The same is true with the Kilwa um the great mosque of Kilwa Kisiwani. I show you in red. You know that the original mosque was very small. But then the mosque was enlarged during the 14th and the 15th century. And this mosque if you look at the mosque of Kilwa the barrel vaults are similar to Banid mosque that we have in the Dean. So again you can see very strong influences of India in East Africa. So I'm a bit going a bit far from the from the ismile but yes sorry I think I show you this picture before and then I would like to conclude with influencers who are beyond you know the religion. So behind the mosque with houses here you have one of the house that we excavated and studied. It's in Anoa. It's an island you know ani you know in Kuml's island and you have these beautiful palaces from the 18th century. Some of you are maybe from Kenya or you know people from Kenya and in Kenya you have Lamu archipelago to the north of Kenya and you have this kind of beautiful swiley houses with a lot of stucco niches you know and these stuccoiches are also present in Indian architecture. You have the same stuconiches in Gujarat for example in Kambe Surat you know or DU and you can see to the left a house from from Lamu and to the right some houses from Kata.

[00:26:56]So basically from the goodat and you can see also the plan of these houses are very similar with three small parallel very narrow parallel rooms you know one room for business in front and two rooms for the family one room for the uh gathering like today and the back room like kind of bedroom for the family and the parents. So you can see that you have a division of the house who is also connected to trade and business you know and uh now something it's very very little known actually overlooked it's the fact that when we did esavation in Sanjay Yakati in Kilwa we excavated a house from the 12th century with exactly the same plan and more recently Italian colleagues who are working in um in Bombour you know in Debul close to Karachi they found the same kind of houses the same plan so for the same period 12th century so it's very interesting to see cultural exchanges from both side you know from east Africa to India and to see all these all all these people were connected you know so I'm talking about of course is smiley but I'm talking more than ismiley I'm talking about multicultural exchanges between Egypt East Africa Yemen and India so yes as a conclusion because I'm a teacher I sometime a bit boring you know I like to repeat things uh men lines uh men facts Islamization was uh in in East Africa was mainly done between 10 and 12th century the fatimits/ the ismiley played a very important role in the Islamization they were connected to trade with fro crystal gold and ivory and um yes I mentioned the ibadi and the ismiley uh trade was very important I listed here the most important cities is you know involved in the trade. I didn't talk a lot about the Red Sea and um Fatimid Egypt. Maybe it will be another occasion to talk about this topic. And so the Swi people were of course African but they are also mixed with different people. When you talk to Sui people from Zanzibar I'm thinking about my dear colleague you know Fartoan he will tell you that better than me. people even they did my colleague did some DNA studies of the swale and they found actually that the also Iranian DNA Indian DNA so the swale are really multicultural and it's not only multicultural but it's also in their DNA so it's it's more than even culture so um yes this I wanted to show you these few examples to show you how important are the ismiley in the Indian Oceanian cultures thank you very much for listening >> [applause] >> Thank you so much uh professor Stefan for such an invigorating talk. You walked us through you know the history of the Indian Ocean. What is the Indian Ocean and about the influences that we see not just in East Africa of the Muslim cultures but you know all across.

[00:30:07]So it was quite interesting to hear about you know how one culture over the other has influences and that these influences are still present you know and you talked about Pakistan and my research on Guadada I can definitely see the influences of you know Stonetown and Zanzibar of Oman so it really sort of encapsulates what the Indian Ocean region is and what it means uh in today's uh time and age. So I'm very excited to share this stage with you today and uh I have a lot of questions you know coming up uh in my head and I'm sure that the audience has a lot of questions uh as well after hearing your talk. What I'm going to start with uh this conversation is um from a passage uh of your book Muslim cultures of the Indian Ocean which you edited with Dr. for Dopan and uh what you say and I'm quote is the earlier perception of Islam is the desert signifying the location of its origins has been complemented by Islam is the ocean and affirmation of its spread across the seas where Muslims have for centuries interacted with each other and with other peoples and cultures. I think it's a beautiful beautiful way to start the book as well about the notion that Islam is the ocean and we hardly you know hear about Islam through the oceanic lens right so I think I'm going to talk about and ask you to elaborate on why is it really important to understand the history or study Muslim cultures through an Indian Ocean lens >> okay it's what I'm trying to do since the past few years most of my colleagues colleagues, my my beloved colleagues work mainly on classic Muslim cultures.

[00:31:56]They work on the Biladel Sham, Egypt, Middle East, some from time to time, North Africa or Turkey, you know, but few people work on Muslim cultures from the Indian Ocean because even today I think that you have a kind of Euro Europeentism.

[00:32:14]So basically the people they look at the Muslims through the Mediterranean. So it's all about Mediterranean Sea and not the Indian Ocean. So what I'm trying to do uh is to say no if you want to understand Muslims you need to look at the Indian Ocean because Indian Ocean was the center even with Egypt with Iraq Iran you know it it's we should maybe look at the Muslims from a different perspective and also you have to remember for the Muslims that you have Mecca and Medina you know and they are in the Arabian Peninsula so you have the Red Sea so you have all this Hajj you know and pilgrimage roots, you know. So basically it's also about religion. So my really my fight is to put the Indian Ocean in the middle of the picture instead of Mediterranean.

[00:33:02]>> I'm very much with you on that fight because we do need to expand the notion of Islam and not just in terms of you know how Islam was spread through the land but also through the ocean and I think we often turn our backs on the ocean. So very much in favor of looking at uh you know Islam through an Indian ocean lens. Now coming back to the ocean, I think when you talked about the fats uh in your presentation, a lot of us in the smiley communities particularly we have this sort of narrative and assumption that the ismiley presence in East Africa only you know came to be during the colonial time period but in your presentation in the books as well and Dr. Schwan Ja has also talked about it is that the fats were quite you know uh present in on the Swahili coast in the east African coast as well during those nuh 10 to 12 centuries. So I think if you could elaborate more on the role that the fat meets played um u during that time period and and touching especially on the smiley community and how the smiley community shaped uh you know the uh how they helped in spreading Islam on that coast but also how they shaped the mosque architecture that you talked about.

[00:34:21]>> Yes. Okay. Uh it's a complicated story.

[00:34:24]Why? Because you know that I was working before in Cairo on the Alazar park and I was digging in Egypt for 16 years. Okay.

[00:34:32]So I know very well the fatty ceramics.

[00:34:34]When I was digging in Kenya, Tanzania and Comro, I never found any piece of fatimid ceramic. The ceramics that I showed you, they are from the fatimid period but mainly from Iran. So there is not a mystery but it seems that the fatimits went to East Africa but they were not selling you know let's say fatty meat products from Egypt they were like middlemen selling products from other places China Iran and so on so we see the first mystery unsolved mystery basically that the Fatimids were playing the role of the Fatimids we know the role of the Fatimids because they were very much connected to East Africa through the Red Sea. The Red Sea was like a corridor go to go to to the Indian Ocean. The Fatimits has two main port cities. Arbor they had one city port city even today in Egypt called Kuser Kuser al- Khadim. It's the old site and now you have the new Kuser.

[00:35:29]It's on the Red Sea. And they had a very important port city close to Asan on the but it was in the Red Sea called Idab.

[00:35:38]IDAB now is located exactly between Sudan and Egypt. So it's a very disputed area. I don't want to compare with Kashmir. It's not the time to do that.

[00:35:48]But it's a very disputed area. And this site was a major arbor for the fatimits.

[00:35:52]So most of the products coming from the Indian Ocean were um brought to brought to Haidab and then by Feluca or by camels all these products were brought to Aswan and from Aswam the fimits use like Feluca you know boats to bring you know all these products from Aswan to Cairo and Alexandria >> right I mean it's very interesting how Fatm were dealing with all of these objects and you talked about rock crystal and the you know prominence of rock crystals as well. I was reading the secondary curriculum this morning. Um, and I found out that the ismile delegation in Ottawa is also inspired by rock crystal. So if you look at I don't know if anybody in the audience has actually visited the smiley delegation but the architectural style is the ceiling and you know uh the design is very much influenced by rock crystal. So it still shows that how even now you know the is smileies or the imam is like you know looking back at its history and is so proud of its heritage as well. So I thought it would be really interesting to uh share that fact. Uh but coming back to the mosque architecture I'm very interested in knowing how was there a difference between the ismiley mosques and the ibadi mosque architecture. And the reason why I ask is that you know there is this assumption that the there is a uniformity or hom uh homogeneousness uh like homogeneity uh in mosque architecture that they're supposed to have a dome and a minate but when we look at the early mosques uh on the east African coast they're very different so if you could elaborate more on what that mosque architecture is and if there was a difference between the early smiley mosques and body mosques.

[00:37:44]>> Yes, it's a again it's a very complicated topic and even now I won't tell you I won't be able to give you all the answers because we are still doing some research and so on. What I can just say that of course we are in Jamatkana if I may and but you all know that the Fatimid they had mosque in the past because we have the Alazar mosque and many Fatimid mosque in Egypt but also in Almadia in Tunisia and so on. The Fatimid mosque were not so different from the mosque that you have all over the world, you know, with a prayer room, colons, you know, and a miraab, you know, with a kibla wall toward Mecca.

[00:38:19]Uh, in East Africa, the Fatimid built also small mosque with a mira to Mecca and so on, but they were more simple monuments. They were a bit in a way similar to the first ibadi mosque that you have even today in Oman for example without minarate >> you know the fatimin mosque in Egypt they have minarates but in east Africa they don't have minarates so the min for the call for the prayer he has to stand you on the roof of the mosque to call for the prayer so the difference between ibadi mosque and fati and isi mosque is the fact that in one of the picture I show you you have the miraab the miraab was built within the niche of the miab was built within the thickness of the wall of the kibla. But in the Ismiley mosque, it's like a niche going outside of the wall of the kibla. So for those who know Zanzibar, for example, even now the Shafi mosque in East Africa, they are built following this old, you know, is smiley style, you know, with this kind of miraab going out, you know, a little bit like a protrusion act outside the the kibla wall. But to be honest with you, there is not much difference between this early ismiley mosque and medieval mosque in the rest of the Muslim world.

[00:39:34]>> Yeah. But the architecture, but that sort of early mosque architecture has sort of influenced how we see mosques uh nowadays. the kind of architecture that we see that's very interesting looking at trade in the Indian Ocean region because that was very important and you highlighted a lot about how you know there was a lot of trade going on uh in the region and because of this trade there was a cultural continuum we had a lot of you know cultures food spices being exchanged a lot of influences on one region on the other and so I'm really interested in knowing how this sort of trade um assisted in the spread of Islam uh in the Indian Ocean region.

[00:40:21]>> Okay. I think personally it's my opinion that I would like to share this opinion with you. It's I sincerely think there is a colleague actually a German colleague who published few years and I have two imminent colleague and friends here in the room also specialist of Islam better than I do actually and I sincerely think that this colleague I think big color published a book called meantil Islam or something. So basically that Islam as a religion is also something very much connected to trade and business. the prophet himself was a businessman you know from a and so when you look at the story of the ismiley it's also the story of the Muslims in general so basically trade was very important trade was important in the Red Sea in the Indian Ocean and also the trade was connected to one of the important duty for Muslims it's a hajj you know the pilgrimage so most of its roots were also pilgrimage roots you know so you trade with China but after Chinese Muslims you know pilgrims they will travel you know to to Jedha and then after to to Mecca. So you have a very strong connection between Islam and religion. And in my book, you know, about African mosque, I also talk about the Ismile in West Africa because Ismiley where in Tunisia, they control all the roots through the Sara desert.

[00:41:44]You had also some ismile emirates, you know, to let's say between, if I'm not mistaken, between Morocco and Algeria, you had also is I sorry, and you have Ismile. So they were controlling the the the gold trade with West Africa and Timbuktu, you know, for example. So you have this connection of Islam and trade.

[00:42:05]Yes.

[00:42:06]>> Very interesting. I mean, when I look at the smile, you see, it's a very interesting perspective to look at, you know, is traders. I only thought about Ismileis as traders in you know in the 19th century in the 20th century because my grandfather was would used to also trade you know uh living in Guadada Pakistan with Iran with Oman with Zanzibar. So he would you know travel by Dao and trade with other regions and even the term koja uh that we use for is smileies in the subcontinent. So it also means merchant which said that you know smileies very much were you know part of the Indian Ocean trade and they were mercantile communities. So it's a very different like you know interesting perspective to look about our own history and this brings me to this notion that you know is smile as maritime communities we haven't really you know thought about ourselves you know as maritime uh communities or as people who belong to the sea. So I was wondering if you could you know elaborate more on you know the role that is have played uh in you know in the maritime uh world because looking at you know especially in the present day and age people who migrated from Kachan Karty to Guadada to Zanzibar they were you know uh traders and they brought their you know culture with them their language with them and then you know and when you mentioned about how Swuahili are an amalgamation of all of these influences. So I thought that was a very interesting way to also look back at our history of how we have been very much a maritime community but we don't really talk about it that much.

[00:43:49]>> Yes, thank you for asking because I didn't have the time to go in depth but in fact you can look at the smiley story with East Africa like two two waves. You have the early waves from the the fatime period and you have the second wave from the as you say the 90 people you know when you talk to Bora for example all the famine you know in Gujarat and so on movement of population from India to East Africa and so on but really you have to think that at least you have two waves of ismile in Africa the ismiley from the fatimid period and the ismiley from let's say roughly the second part of the 18th century with the palaces that I show you in comos and 19th centur cy. So it is probably important to think about that. But you know the same is true for Arabs. People think that Arabs arrived in East Africa with the Omani sultanate. You know the sultenate of Zanzibar. It's not true. You have ID Arabs from the from the Abbasi 9th 9th 10th century period. So the story of the the ismiley is also true for Arabs in East Africa. It's it's a mistake to think about short memories. you know 19th century it's a much much deeper history than that.

[00:45:01]>> Yeah. And you talked about how some of the houses um you know the smiley houses that we have on the smiley coast uh when you excavated uh in uh Bambour and other parts you know there was the same uh architectural plan and I I was just interesting to also know that you know is there anybody in the audience who is from East Africa or has East African origins or heritage?

[00:45:28]There are quite a few people.

[00:45:32]Wonderful. So I don't know if you've been to some of those sites that professor Stefan talked about Geddi Kilva you know and have sort of you know sort of thought about your own ismile history and looked at some of these sides as part and parcel of your identity uh as well and noticed uh very much the influences that the Indian Ocean has brought. For instance, when I was researching in Guadada, the old town has a lot of carved doors that you can find in Zanzibar, that you can find in Kenya, that it's, you know, very much uh, you know, seen in uh, Oman and Qatar as well. And I never really realized that these carved doors are part, you know, have been brought to us through maritime trade, through, you know, migration of people through the Indian Ocean. So I think it was just really interesting to see that you know Indian Ocean has brought so much and uh even now up until today it's still very much relevant.

[00:46:35]I was talking recently I mean few days ago to a colleague from the Aakan trust for culture you know in Geneva and he told me Stefan some doors some carved doors you know we don't know if these doors they are from Zanziba from Moscat in Oman or from Gujgerat because the doors you know like you know with metal work and so they are so similar >> so it's incredible to see all these cultures you know were shared you know between India Oman and East Africa so Yeah, absolutely. And this is what makes uh this region so exciting and uh to research on.

[00:47:17]Thank you all for your thoughtful engagement this evening.

[00:47:20]Finally, we would like to thank all our logistics teams, our refreshments teams, our audiovisisual teams, and all our volunteers. audience at home on Ismiley TV and all of you guests here for your presence and support this evening. Thank you for and hope to see you at another event.

[00:47:41][applause]