EHRC Code of Practice | Maya Forstater on Sky News

Ajouté : 2026-05-23

[00:00:00]But first, let's have a word with the chief executive of the charity Sex Matters, Maya Forstater, who joins me now. Maya, thank you for project about this. But first, let's have a word with the chief executive of the charity Sex Matters, Maya Forstater, who joins me now. Maya, thank you for taking the time. What do you think about this guidance?

[00:00:19]We think it's pretty good. We give it a eight out of eight out of 10. It follows the law. It explains project about this.

[00:00:26]But first, let's have a word with the chief executive of the charity Sex Matters, Maya Forstater, who joins me now. Maya, thank you for taking the time. What do you think about this guidance?

[00:00:36]We think it's pretty good. We give it a eight out of eight out of 10. It follows the law. It explains how service providers can provide single-sex services, sports associations, in a range of different situations. And it also says how transgender people's rights are protected, which means where you have a separate-sex facility, it's often helpful to have a a unisex option.

[00:01:03]And in most large buildings, that already exists. Yeah, we'll get onto that in a second. I mean, the government says this is about the protection of people's rights. Do you think it succeeds in that way, protecting all people's rights?

[00:01:16]I I think it largely does. It It's based on the Equality Act, which is law that's been around since 2010 and the Sex Discrimination Act has been around since 1975.

[00:01:26]It's really clear that when women go into a space where they're undressing, where they are vulnerable, where they expect privacy, that men shouldn't be in there. And men who identify as non-binary or trans women are still men.

[00:01:42]In most cases, it's very obvious that they're they're still men. But even if it's not obvious, um women deserve privacy and dignity.

[00:01:49]And one of the most important things that this code does is it recognizes that. It makes it really clear. And so, it means that when if if women have to go to court like the nurse Sandy Peggy, for example, they've had to explain why women expect privacy and dignity in single-sex spaces. This code puts that into a statutory basis and says, "You don't have to make this case every individual time."

[00:02:12]It's It's really obvious that single-sex spaces should be single-sex.

[00:02:18]Because And this is all based on that judgment last year that sex means biological sex.

[00:02:24]But what if someone who's been born female, who's now presenting as male, they could then go into those female-only spaces, couldn't they? But they would look to the women in there like a man. Well, the guidance that the the judgment and the guidance both deal with that. That's the piece that you showed a little earlier. It said that a trans man, that's a woman who identifies as a man, if she is excluded from a women's-only space, that is lawful. Because if somebody has taken a lot of effort to try and look like a man, it's not unreasonable for them to be excluded from a women's space in the same way that you know, if >> Where would they What But where would they then go if they also cannot use a men-only space like a men's toilet, for example? Well, the unisex. I mean, lots of people identify as non-binary nowadays. Where should they go? They can use the unisex.

[00:03:19]So, do you Do you think there's enough in here about potential third spaces, unisex places?

[00:03:25]Um yes. What it What the guidance says is that it's where it's a proportionate means to a legitimate aim. So, that means, you know, in a larger building, you already have accessible unisex options. In a very small building and a historic pub or something, you might say, "Well, you know, we can't possibly um build that space." But in most buildings already, you have a unisex accessible option. So, there really is it's it's not a difficult dilemma.

[00:03:56]Uh the the guidance does say it may be legitimate to provide confirmation that they are the eligible sex.

[00:04:05]How would someone do that? Is that a case of carrying around their birth certificate?

[00:04:09]No. Um I mean, the the most obvious way is just an honest answer to a straightforward question. I mean, you there are lots of services where they're based on sex or based on age, and you just expect people to follow the rules.

[00:04:25]Um But hang hang on. But but trans people would say, "Well, I'm a man." or "I'm a woman." when you would argue otherwise.

[00:04:34]If you can see or hear that somebody is male, and they might have long hair, they might wear makeup, they might be wearing a dress, that's that's what a trans woman is. But Not not necessarily. Not necessarily.

[00:04:48]Trans people talk about something called possibility. You could pass them on the street, and you wouldn't know that they weren't born the way they present. Well, what the the Supreme Court looked at this, and what it looked at was the Equality Act. The Equality Act protects trans people against discrimination any stage in a transition process, which is a personal process. It doesn't have to involve seeing a doctor. It doesn't have to involve surgery. It doesn't have to involve taking hormones. So, most people in that category will not pass. And even if you do have medical treatment, most people particularly male who've been through male puberty will not pass as female. They look like trans women, and what you need to do as a service provider is provide three options in that case.

[00:05:36]Um not try to sort of draw the line as in will you pass, and you don't pass.

[00:05:41]That that's not treating people with dignity and and um respect. What's treating people with dignity and respect is saying, here are the rules, we expect you to follow them.

[00:05:52]Maya Forstater from the charity Sex Matters. Thank you very much indeed for joining us.