SMR webinar - 10.11.2022

Added: 2026-05-11

[00:00:00]and first of all my name is I will be facilitating this webinar today and I'm a research manager here at uh at IFA um in the invitation that you got when you signed up it was highlighted that the webinar is going to be recorded so I just want to mention that again that the recording has now started and it will be made available afterwards uh it's only the speaker presentations that will be included in the final recording so none of the discussions or the questions and answers will be part of that and it's going to be made available afterward in our or the sort of webinars website so before we continue I would also like all of you to mute your microphone and turn off your cameras during the presentations and after the presentations it will be a small session where you can ask direct questions to the speakers and at the end we will have a separate session for questions and answer here is the program for the webinar so the first part will basically be some introductionary report from instant printed technology where we'll go a little bit about if the Halton technology and organization project introduction to smrs and then the potential use cases of this in Norway after that we will sum up whether there are any questions related to these four presentations before a break and after that we will continue with the external speakers with all nuclear energy risk future your environmental requirements consequences for Norwegian shipping industry and then on the nuclear situation in Europe what opportunities there are in barriers and also nuclear power in Norway each of them will be given the option or you will be given the option to ask questions to each of them and also at the end we will have an audience questionnaire and for this webinar I would like to prioritize um questions that are raised so you may raise your hand after each presentation but you may also have your questions in the chat and we will try to follow up on those the best we can with that I would like to introduce our first Speaker which is uh Thomas nolandir he's the vice president of Ife research and development and specifically for digital systems I would give you a very short background about ether Eva is a research institute it's a Research Foundation it's a non-profit Foundation that means that we are not owned by the government we know the university we don't have any shareholders we own ourselves we started our existence after the second World War and here on the picture on the left you see our Founding Father gunarandis together with Albert Einstein he was over in U.S at this time and got to know Albert Einstein and his work but also his colleagues and this was a time when U.S was relatively open when it comes to nuclear technology and that and the good relationship to U.S allowed Norway to be the sixth nation in the world when it comes to nuclear power so even though we today don't use nuclear to produce power we have had four nuclear reactors in Norway that we have built from scratch and it's in ether The Institute for energy technology where we have built these reactors and these reactors were up until end of 1970s meant to get the knowledge for us to maybe have nuclear power in Norway but then due to political decisions 1979 it have a more focus on reactors for research but over this time if it was built and it was built in one way to help Norwegian industry after the second world war and during this time we have I'm going to put the pointer we have started with nuclear but we also walked into hydrogen offshore wind subsea solar battery Etc and become an Energy Research Institute and if we are our main office is in sheller just outside Oslo on the way to to to the airport and the other location at ephes On the Border to Sweden in Halden and IFA is different in many aspects from other Research Institute is that we have three very distinct organizations on the one on the same roof so we have research and development and that's part of us here and then we have nuclear operation and that is a part with a couple of hundred people that maintain and run the reactors and then we have in blue here organization which produce radio Pharmacy for prostata cancer that are delivered around the world but the one that presents the seminar and set it up here it's under research and development and here we have two divisions energy and millyard technology and digital system down here in Halden and I will just focus a little bit uh two more slides about that before I leave over to Andreas so we're called digital system but what we focus Us in how we can use digital technology to do more with less effort and get it done quicker safer and cheaper and this is something that we have done for the international nuclear community for a long long time but the knowledge that we have gained is very applicable for the Norwegian process industry Etc so down here in Holland where we have one of our reactors in the mountain here we have three different research areas human and organizational Factor risk security and physical science and artificial intelligence and virtual and augmented reality these three different sectors or research areas consist of seven different departments we have 11 Labs two research centers and are about 100 employees but on the right hand side we have something very interesting uh when it comes to you interested in small modular reactor we have the Halden reactor project Ife have run one if not the one the largest International research project and the longest running so we are running a project that we started in 1958 and in this project or this Consortium you have over 100 organization from 20 different countries that are every year paying us money to do applied research for them in nuclear safety and of course that that means that this have gone on for decades and this is our biggest project at ether and it's the absolutely biggest part of what we're doing down here in Halden but this project since 1958 have formed and fed the the creation of these different departments here but if you look on the left-hand side this department you see that a lot of the the names of the department you can very quickly see that they are very relevant for other areas of society if it's industry or smart city or energy in general or in transportation and very often a lot of research institutes say that they are very good or World leading in these areas to the to the left and of course we say that too but during this Halden reactor project every third year all the countries and organization can pull out so their three-year projects that continue if everyone agree and they have continues in 1958 so that means that U.S have decided to send a lot of money to Halden for us to do research on nuclear safety for them and in England they have not sent it to Oxford Stanford and Edinburgh they're sending it to us the same in Sweden they don't send it to courteous they send it to us and the same in South Korea in Japan in France etc etc so in the area on the left hand side when it comes to nuclear safety we are World leading when it comes to research there and then with that I would like to move over to our next presenter that actually have the responsibility for the Holden reactor project or the HTO project then Andreas I would close my presentation and then you can share the screen good so I'll just continue from um that introduction my name is Andreas B I'm a chief scientist at Ife and I'm a program manager for the Holden project the OCD Nea Holden human technology organization project so I'll talk a little bit about that and how that is relevant for smrs a little bit about the history Thomas mentioned it but it's this is based on the holding reactor that was built in 1958 there has been a project going on since then but the Holden reactor was closed down in 2018. so we were wondering um what whether it was possible to continue a Holden project after that time and we started also very early with process control at the reactor in 1967 already there was a chapter on doing research on process of provision and control as the reactor um we had the first system called opicom in 1972 which was computerized control of the Holden reactor we can see a picture of that a pair with a TV Tom Barrack TVs and a graphical system made her thief and a homemade keyboard and everything so that was one of the first digital control systems of the nuclear reactors in the world actually in 1972.

[00:11:33]then they we wanted to continue research on this and found out that we needed the simulator Laboratories in order to be able to do that in a in a good way since we were also interested in safety and how to handle accidents on the nuclear nuclear facility and to that for that we needed a simulator so the first version was built in 1983 and we've had four versions and buildings since that time I'll come back to that a little bit later so what is this Holden project or Holden reactor project that started in 1958 as three early projects and there was a fuels and materials program in green hair and there was a so-called MTO program man technology organization program um in the last years before 2020 the fuels and materials program had approximately 60 percent of the turnover in this project and the MTO part had approximately 40 percent uh so we were of course Very uh excited or a little bit nervous when the reactor closed down a very big infrastructure in in uh in here whether we would be able to continue this program after the reactor was shut down I'm not sure if how many of you who knows uh about uh have heard about the Holden reactor uh and I guess if there are any one of you having heard about the Holden project I'm pretty sure maybe some of you don't know that there is still a Holden project going on this is about what I'm going to talk about now we renamed the MTO part of this program to HDL human technology organization we started first of January last year with this project and it is built on the same type of structures then the ACL project but it's moving on with the issues on control rooms with safety with human technology and organization so what is this this is an international collaborative research project for safe and reliable operational nuclear power plants so it's a nuclear power safety program uh it's Affiliated to the oecd nuclear energy agency in Paris and if is the operating agent if in here in Holton all the activities are going on here and it's a three-year three-yearly joint research program it is funded not by the Nea but by the membership uh country membership so the agreement is now signed by 20 parties in 12 countries including Norway and there are in addition to that there are now 39 organizations who are pre-approved third parties and that's typically a regulatories utilities or power plants then vendors r d centers and uh even then for example in Norway we have a equinox or all companies and then tenu and NDA is with us and the high school nearest for that as well the budget for the three-year period is approximately 150 million Norwegian kurl net which is a little bit less than the 40 we had of the old home project but it's um it we managed to establish it and uh currently it's actually growing there's a growing interest in joining this the members of this project in Norway if he's a formal member but the funding is coming from the government Canada is joining for the first time uh they have a good constellation of the regulatory uh safety commission the authorities and the Canadian nuclear Laboratories and the county owners groups representing the utilities and the plants well it's the same Constable constellation we see in the U.S USA where uh Department of energy is now the biggest part party the U.S nuclear Regulatory Commission have been maybe the most important member in all the years for the human factors and the MTO HTO research they are a world leading party in the nuclear power and the nuclear industry and most of their guidelines is taking us and kind of ad hoc and or as um standards used by all the countries in the nuclear World actually so um many of these countries are now also interested in smrs small modular reactors has uh is really hot in the in the nuclear world this day we we see Canada have a lot of efforts in it the US has a lot of discussions and most of the countries and UK as well are discussing that and most of the countries are interested because I see it it is coming as a new a safer option and a new Option of doing a better job also on the safety and the efficiency of the nuclear industry foreign okay I'll talk a little bit about the drivers for establishing this new Hogan human technology organization project um in 2021 um and it's a quite interesting to see that people's um the importance of the human aspects of nuclear safety is really getting on everybody's mind uh the nuclear energy agency they established this division of radiological protection and human aspects of nuclear safety in 2014 before that they had the nuclear safety and divisions but now they had a separate entity of human aspects of nuclear safety and that was a key point for us I think when we wanted to establish this new one I'd also like to say that for the nuclear industry the importance of safety and Safety Research is really uh really important uh the whole industry has an obligation to do science based um developments and so I would say that when it comes to control rooms surveillance digital Inc and now we also see for example cyber security and especially human factors we see that the nuclear industry has really and been willing to put money into research in this uh on this aspects um so uh maybe more than other Industries I would say of course some of the important drivers here were the accidents that has happened for example at Three Mile Island in 1971 79 a short time after that we established the the first simulator laboratory here and so that has been instrumental also we have learned a lot from the Chernobyl and the Fukushima accents of course and now we have very good contact to utilities as well foreign about our infrastructures we are as Thomas said we are an applied Research Institute we are very empirically based so we have simulator Laboratories with the full scale simulators for example we have a virtual reality Center and so on this is our human health and human machine laboratory homlab has been in operation since 1983 and here we do research and experiments with licensed Crews with the real operators from uh from power plants typically from Sweden or from the US a picture and these guys here and it's taken from the gallery where we are surveying this um experiments this is a crew from U.S nuclear power plant who comes here for one week they have a training one day and then they're running four days of scenarios to support our research and our research is typically about how to make best possible interfaces that's possible overview displays for example to get the better view of the of the plant it is about the scenarios what type of scenarios are really creating problems for The Operators and to do these things we have a people employed here who has been operators at power plants we have uh we have an Engineers of course and computer scientists but last but not least we have maybe the biggest group of psychologists working on these matters in in the world actually where we have uh 15 or 20 psychologists here who are working on setting up experiments and testing um these safety issues in with the real um with operators and crews in a realistic scenarios which is different from universities who have more and much more uh like students as a subject base but we can do more realistic things here how much time do you have to set up you have some more time okay five minutes good this summer we installed a small modular reactor simulator in our ham lab this was installed in August it was the first SMR simulator to be used for research purposes in in the world so we are on the Leading Edge of this um this is a light water technology uh simulator currently with six units and we can expand it up to 12. and the point here is that here we want to do research on multi-unit surveillance teamwork for example how many operators do you need to to survey six units for example there's a lot of research questions coming up on the surveillance of six similar units is different from the surveillance of one big unit earlier so that's a lot of interesting research questions coming up actually that's a Regulators worldwide are asking us about results on this we have a virtual reality Center as well been working a lot of that in especially in decommissioning we have a decommissioning cluster here in Holden now and working together with the Norwegian nuclear decommissioning and others and smart Innovation Norway for example working together with them on the cluster and uh on a lot of things on Robotics and here we are using VR augmented reality and the extended reality we have a future lab where we are more exploring issues earlier in the design phase and I'll mention also that we are working on cyber security as well and in that that's a typical case that shows that we work empirically and we want to have applied research so here we have established a security operations center uh and the our specialty here is actually to look at how our people surveying this and how can people in such a center collaborate with operators in control rooms in order to together uh handle attacks on uh on serious infrastructure for example power plants or or others we have what you call a hadron Hazard aware digitalization and Robotics in nuclear and other domains and here we are utilizing robotics for especially in decommissioning I would say we have a human automation lab it's a nice picture of a search type there and we are working on some physical measures eye tracking for example EEG things we have done for quite some time I'd also mentioned that we how what we call a remote lab you will meet Rob McDonald later it's a picture of him he's here a date collecting data at the plant U.S training simulator a training simulator at a nuclear power plant in the US so these are the topics we are studying in performance digital in C safety appearance control room design and evaluation human automation collaboration which is uh maybe maybe the main thing that is related to smrs now it if you look at it in that way it's also very related to cars and uh and our autopilots in the cars now and how we should collaborate with them we have a maintenance and operations we have a digital transformational decommissioning and also cyber security so I would say many of these things are relevant unnecessary to to study if you want to look into smrs but I'll mention one particular thing is human automation collaboration where we're looking at the human performance in smrs and especially about multi-unit operation how can you for example an operator how can an operator detect parallel failures in several units at the same time how can you separate units from each other in different operational positions and so on operator for performance in Hollow automated plants is also very important and it's also very very relevant for other areas so that's some examples I think I'll stop there sister with this picture of our SMR simulator and the message from here is that we are going to do Empirical research in a SMR simulator in Holden in the coming years in this project okay thank you very much Andreas um then we will move on to the our next presenter uh sorry about that I think we have it here now uh which is as you mentioned Robert Mcdonald he's a principal engineer from ether been that since 2014 has his background in nuclear plant operations and started this nuclear career in the U.S Navy actually I had 18 years in operations department at a commercial nuclear plant in Texas had four years in ringhouse in Sweden in the control room there as a shift engineer and has now sort of come to Ether and is one of the members in this SMR group the screen is yours Robert thank you sister um it's my pleasure to be here today and I thank all of you for joining us I'm going to start off the discussion today talking specifically about uh the small modular reactors so I'm going to start the uh process where we're going to look at technology so today I'm going to continue right on through after I did the technology discussion player bracket was is another one of our members but she's taken ill this week so I'm going to continue with her presentation afterwards at the end of this one so I'll start with the little technology overview and then we'll roll right into the other portion of her presentation so I like to start off with the initial discussion is what is an SMR what is a small module reactor and based on the Nea uh definition of a small modular actor it's any reactor that is from 10 megawatts to 300 megawatts Electric anything under 10 megawatts electric is considered a microreactor and we'll be talking a little bit about micro reactors as well today the big difference with the and why we say module reactor is because with the with the smrs they're integrated and they're modular such that ninety percent of the construction of the reactor is done within a factory and then that whole total component is shipped out to the site uh and there's some that makes it where it gets its competitiveness because now you're not having to design and build everything on site or ship elements to the site you know you just basically do everything within a factory a single Factory and then ship it out the site there's still work done on the site as far as site planning and and all the concrete ports and everything has to be done there uh and then as of today there are 70 different uh small module reactor designs uh worldwide some of those are developing a little faster than others uh and we'll be talking a little bit about that as well so let's do a quick comparison of uh because everybody on you know most people have this picture and ideal of what uh what a nuclear reactor a nuclear site looks like based on the designs that were created back in the in the 60s uh and then built in the 70s and 80s so these uh convention and I'll call them conventional designs as compared to a small modular actor so the conventional designs are between 700 and uh 1400 megawatts electric as compared to what we talked about the SMR being between 10 and 300 watts electric so about you know anywhere from half to a third the size as far as output is concerned and then we'll see how that works I have to go we talked about the modular design most of it's built in the factory the last 10 percent is assembled on site where uh with the conventional designs today you have 70 80 percent of the construction on site they do they are doing more modular construction today and and chipping in some components but the majority of it is constructed on site uh let's look at footprint site footprint for 195 megawatt electric uh plant is about seven hectares or 17 Acres that same uh for a conventional design a hundred thousand megawatts you're looking at 259 hectares or 640 acres so it's significantly still much much bigger footprint uh potential uses electrical generation hydrogen production District heating desalinization uh those are some of the things that you can use asmrs for the conventional designs are basically base load electrical generation they are starting to do some support of hydrogen production but that's very limited in in the early early phases safety systems for the smrs or passive uh and then we also use some inherent negative feedback reactivity as well for some of the uh some designs some of the generation 4 designs uh most Safety Systems associated with the uh conventional designs are going to be active systems for pouring electrical power and so now some of the newer models the ap1000 for example they use more passive designs so that's a a step forward for those designs but uh the newer smrs are all passive systems scalability normally with the conventional signs you get one or two two units per site so as I said there's normally a one to two sites you can have some sites that have three three units on the site uh whereas the SMR the scalability uh you can have start with one to four units uh new skill is an example of this uh their their design is basically a 12 unit plant which you can start with as small as four and then expand those out based on the needs for uh capacity and what do you have needs for electrical production on in that area so these are capable to to expand and so you don't have to put a thousand megawatts in one place and then try to distribute that out you can build that up or you can move it to different areas and then uh the larger designs they're essentially designed for base load they can do some load following but it's not the most economical and best design for those larger plants where the smaller um these smaller smrs can come offline or follow much easier because you're not trying to move such a large Nuclear Plant so let's look at uh some of the safer designs with less waste let's look at this as so and here's a good uh good example of an integrated system so with this particular design here we have the pressurizer within the reactor vessel the cores within their active vessel and then even steam generators can be uh created within this same thing so you've taken essentially uh three major components the core sting generators and uh pressurizer and and basically place them within one single reactor vessel so this allows you a much cleaner uh system everything can be built within the factory instead of having to ship out these three major components to the site you basically build everything in one area and then ship it out to the site they rely on passive systems natural cooling uh so so natural circulation to cool the cool the plant and then even some have basically set within a water uh tank so it's that it's flooded or able to be flooded in the event of an accident or the necessary to do so so everything works on natural flow of natural gravity and natural circulation to cool the plant down so no operator actions are required and it helps reduce the risk of human error uh also because we use a much smaller footprint and a much smaller you know less material in the long run we'll have less radioactive uh ways to to deal with uh these plants are also designed to work much longer without uh uh refueling as often some of the more Generation 4 designs either have no refilling requirement or can go up to seven eight years ten years so that also helps us reduce the the waste at the end as well and then just the size of everything helps also minimize that waste So currently there are about 70 smrs currently in development some of the ASMR types are you have the standard water cool uh reactor light water heavy water pressurized water and boiling water reactors there's uh some high temperature gas cooled including the pepper bed reactor you have Fast Night Neutron uh type designs which are both liquid metal fast reactor and gas monitor fast reactor and then molten salt which are also fast Neutron reactors uh both chloride salt and fluoride salt cool directors and you can see on the right hand side of the screen there are these are some of the manufacturers currently uh developing smrs both uh all over the world essentially so now I want to look at some of the current near-term uh manufacturers taking place today and where they're expected to start their production so we'll start off with Westinghouse it's an EBT their eventually reactor this is a micro reactor so it's a five megawatts electric uh output plus an additional eight megawatts thermal residual heat that can be used for District heating or you know uh desalinization so they use a heat pipe technology it's all contained within a single unit container and then so they use this heat that comes from this reactor to spin a turbine to get your electrical output and then that residual heat is also usable for different things they're going to have their nuclear demonstrator up and running by 2025 and then they expect to have their production started by 2027 for commercial production seaborg is a Danish company that's using chloride molten salt reactor uh they use the molten salt technology so their concept is a floating barge system that will have from one one to four reactors to their 200 megawatt electrical reactors so essentially you can see in the picture down here that uh it'll be a floating barge so this would be something that could be floated into a port connected up to the Grid or for district heating uh different different uh possibilities and as I said it's expandable from 200 megawatts up to 800 megawatts they're current they're doing a demonstrator currently in Denmark sorry about that there we go uh they're doing a demonstrator in Denmark right now to demonstrate the uh moltenstock technology the next one we'll talk about is GE Hitachi uh the bwrx and the X stands for number 10 this is their 10th design uh from GE uh currently it's a boy it is a Boiling Water Reactor it's a 300 megawatt uh design so it's based on their uh latest design passive design bwr plant uh but scaled down to 300 megawatts uh they currently are working with Ontario power generation in Canada at the Darlington site just outside of Toronto and they have actually uh just announced that they receive additional funding and approval to start site work and look at the and some of the long lead items so they're taking the next step they're expected to have the first unit up and running by 2028. uh so they're taking the next step there as well new skill is one that's been in the news quite a bit uh they were one of the first ones to or they are the first one to to get U.S nuclear regulatory approval for their design they also have a commitment from uh a electric company in Nevada and or excuse me in Utah and they will build their first plant uh at the Idaho Laboratories uh testing site in Idaho Falls so they move forward with that they're in the process right now of doing their site verification and testing to verify the site's prepared to except the units so they've done a six unit uh plan there expected to be up and running by 2029 the first unit and then the subsequent uh units by 2030.

[00:39:02]and then finally the Swedish company uh Swedish events led director this is a cold lead uh sealer reactors the name of the reactor it's a multi-led technology it's designed basically is that it will be a 25-year life cycle no refueling required uh it'll produce 55 megawatts electric output and one of the things that this is basically focused on is clean Steel so they were put it uh or green steel so they'll put it next to a steel production plant and basically provide the electric output and some heat for the development of Steel so that's some of the technology and that's currently available and currently coming around so that'll that'll end that portion of this presentation and then I'll move on to the next portion of the presentation this was developed by as I said my colleague Claire blackett and then I'll do the presentation today and we'll look at some of the benefits of smaller modular actors so it's kind of goes right into from when you look to technology now we'll look at some of the benefits so we know that uh we're looking to support a green shift and Renewables is one way to do that but we also have to be realistic and and think about how do we support that other half of that when Renewables can't meet those demands and as we uh move forward in the future uh we need to think about what's the other process of you know working between those two both Renewables and and the other way to produce other means of producing electricity so uh Europe is looking to power the nuclear powers of fuel for to support the green shift uh here's a good a really good graph of how things work with the Wind Farm uh you have varying outputs under the day and this is from four o'clock in the morning till uh four o'clock in the evening uh for four o'clock in there yeah the end of the day you know what I'm trying to get at uh and so you can see that there's going to be some changes in the output so you're going to need something that can support that as well uh and so smrs can easily do that as the wind picks up and and more electricity is generated from the wind turbines then you can reduce the power from the uh SMR and then that SMR can then pick up the power as the wind dies down and it changes and if there is no wind then you can just run your SMR as needed so it's uh nuclear is definitely there and available and especially with smrs to support the green shift and then support those Renewables as they come and go uh under the time period of the day so there are cases for load following and it works very well uh a nice display here about the the size and we when we talk about uh at 250 225 megawatt electric SMR we're looking about 15 acres of land as compared to the solar which uh the same size is going to take up about 2 400 acres of land and then your wind farm is going to take up about 6 000 acres of land and these are just the it's just the numbers uh so you can get a lot more power in a little bit of space especially with the smrs now uh then we talk about here the smart design and allows for much more flexible deployment uh because it has a significantly smaller footprint than the conventionals that we talked about uh which were over 640 acres now you're down to somewhere between seven and and we'll say 20 acres for this uh development of this site so it makes it much easier to be able to locate these in the areas that need uh electricity and then if you get into smaller or into a micro reactor if you're even talking even a less footprint you're talking for a 10 megawatt microreactor you're probably talking about the size of a standard warehouse so for footprint wise so you know it allows us these smrs allow us to be closer to the areas that we need that electricity so then you don't have to build an extensive infrastructure to get the electricity from one to the other plus it supports those things like uh District Heating and other forms of of heat requirement desalinization in those things uh so the recent uptake of the exploration of how microactors and electrons should be uh used is a sustainable Alternative Energy uh so if you're trying to compare this to uh natural gas or even hydrogen you know that transport of those gases I'll always leave a risk and then you know building the infrastructure also causes additional problems so it's much easier to be able to move in a an SMR into an area and then have the just electrical distribution much closer just some things to think about so now we will look at some potential SMR use cases specifically in Norway uh so there's a need for stable electricity and I think most of us already realize now that uh there are things that happen in the world that we don't have a lot of control over and it can affect how our electricity is uh produced and the stability of that and then we also have set a very ambitious goal to reduce emissions by 55 by 2030 and then to zero emissions by 2050 uh that that that's a very ambitious and tough goal so how are we going to do that plus we know that uh a lot of those ways to reduce those emissions also come with a electricity requirement you need electrical uh electricity to to power electrical vehicles according to the DMV's energy transition in Norway uh report that was creating 2021 uh normally we're lucky only achieve 24 reduction by 2030 and at 79 reduction by 2050. so these are just uh and then as you know those are goals and we try to get there but we need to be realistic with this as well and we also increase electricity the demand is is increasing uh as we increase the the use of electrical vehicles and other other forms of electrical transportation so why should we consider nuclear for Norway hydropower is still the primary electricity Source in Norway today and as things change it will continue to be a very large produce production point in Norway but we also use oil and gas uh so Norway invested a lot of uh a lot in hydrogen Battery Technology in recent years but those you know those are moving forward and that's a good thing but we still uh use fossil fuels even though we're adding Renewables and batteries and other gaseous fuels so how do we get to the point where we are you know able to uh support that sorry about that so moving forward from there potential use cases in Norway so we look at Maritime also this is another thing that Norway is uh a very big Maritime leader in the world uh and so as Norway goes the world seems to go so we're looking at this there's already a couple of uh projects uh ntnu new Pro ship project is underway and then also they ultimate door concept uh we'll discuss discussed uh in some nuclear news and and other uh uh industry articles nucleus is zero emission a near zero emission alternative to highly uh uh to the Merino gas zero emissions also uh other term Alternatives such as hydrogen and ammonia unfortunately for most it takes up a lot of space and then if you're talking about the fishing industry uh you're also talking about that it basically takes up their cargo space so we must be realistic about how we can move forward with this and both of these projects are looking at the how to use nuclear on a vessel whether it be a shipping vessel or a fishing vessel so we're moving forward with that and it's very interesting times there's a lot of discussion that with that today in both in Norway and the world remote locations this is one of the things where smrs and micro reactors can really really have a big impact uh and help reduce the use of fossil fuels because they have such a smaller footprint and they can be located in a little bit nearer to the sites or to the areas that need them uh it would provide much more stable electricity uh and then it allows those areas to maintain uh their electrical usage without having to rely on fossil fuels especially in the mountainous areas wouldn't be a barrier any longer because you could easily build an SMR in those areas or a microraptor because not all of those towns require a 300 megawatts of electricity production it could be some as simple as 10 to 20 megawatts Electric and then they can provide the energy security those remote uh areas and islands that uh have a hard time connecting to the grid as we said also District heating uh can can be produced with the micro reactor like the evinci you get 13 megawatts or eight additional megawatts so uh District Heating in those areas and then some other local electrification areas and this was one of the things that we we didn't initially think about but uh now that it was brought up and discussed it actually makes a lot of sense you have things like the airport uh that can be completely Off the Grid self-sufficient for electricity demands for all components that they need and then still have that connection that if if when you need to take the reactant out for maintenance or anything like that then you could put it you know put it back on the grid at low use times but otherwise it's basically self-sufficient same thing with this uh we talked about in industrial areas as Industrials grow they're going to need more and more electricity well you know where's that electricity coming from uh so you have to think about uh can we put a microraptor or a small module reactor nearby an industrial area to supply that grid for that area and provide a good reliable energy at all times so production can can go on and then especially when you get into uh when we're talking about companies wanting to go uh electric with all their vehicles uh trying to charge uh you know a lot of delivery vehicles at the end of the day puts an extreme stress on the grid so if they had a micro Rector a small module reactor nearby where they could easily charge theirs and then under those times that they're not using all the power they can either reduce the power or send it out to the grid support the Grid in that way as well and then as we look at the integration of everything uh we want to use those renewable energies the wind the solar uh the hydrogen the batteries those things are are in one part of that and then we need to to include nuclear as part of that as well to help support uh a stable electric grid and reduction of fossil fuels and this allows us by helping us produce hydrogen uh supporting industry providing clean water and then providing other industrial processes that help us improve our lives as a whole so some of the conclusions are this are that there is an increase in Need for Norway to produce a secure and stable electric electricity for National consumption so just like I talked about as we move away from fossil fuels as we go to a more Electrical uh driven economy and Society the need for electricity is going to go up it's not going to go down so we need to look at you know how do we provide that electricity without uh increasing the need for fossil fuels and then smrs offers offers that flexibility and integration that they're small uh including micro reactors could easily be placed in certain areas that support would support the increase in electrification uh and then there's uh as we saw there's some attractive use cases in the immediate future for smrs in Norway I'd like to thank you for this sorry for some of my little Mix-Ups and and bloopers but I appreciate your time thank you so much uh Rob um so with that I think it's time to have a small uh break and we will continue a quarter past so it's eight minutes and uh in the meantime there's also provided some links to articles for instance by juveniles and others in the in the chat so feel free to have a look at those as well and with that I would like to introduce our first Speaker after the break which is on emblex book so young is has served in the various actual senior management positions in the industry including SVP of ship Design Systems at Rolls-Royce marine and general manager at mitson Brook the signing and Manufacturing Advanced pressure vessels he is currently a professor at Meridian University of Science and Technology and tnu board member consultant author and speaker his areas of expertise include operations management product and process development life cycle analysis and renewable energy including nuclear energy he typically takes a techno-economic environmental approach to develop solutions to challenges at hand and has written several books internally available and dozens of internationally published Journal papers he holds the PhD from 1999 and a master of science from Georgia Institute of Technology from 95 and actually one from mtnu 194 as well so yeah the screen is yours thank you for the nice introduction and thank you for having me here um let's see let me share my screen and is it visible now yes excellent all right so I hold a lot of talks these days and if we look at the key risks people think or we can you know put them into three big bags waste we heard that waste issue is huge and long lasting cost the nuclear technology is very expensive time we do not have time nuclear power plants take too long time to build and fourth generation is too far ahead that's what we have all right well first waste what are the realities and here I got a nice picture from svlog in Switzerland to use our country of similar size and the the key issue is that 99.5 percent of the radiation is found in only a 10.2 percent of the material and it's this kind of material that you find here and after 40 years only one per mil of the radiation is left by year in 2018 there was about 2 400 cubic meter material and that's what you see here in Switzerland and from this they had generated almost 2 700 terawatt hours of electricity since the late 70s I think now with Generation 4 nuclear power the same amount of waste would have given up to 100 000 terawatt hours or um yeah and of course in terms of waste which is very important uh 70 of that material must be stored for 300 years and the rest for only 10 years unlike today where we're talking talking about thousands of years of course if we had if we wanted to produce 2 700 terawatt hour then we would in the best case end up only with this amount of waste using our the most efficient uh fourth generation technology that is now under development so in terms of waste I would say there's perhaps no industry with less waste problem than the nuclear when we look at the total picture uh to today we generate more than 50 million tons of E-Waste globally just for reference the burden of nature is also minimal and we see that here is solar PV which is this is ton tons of material per terawatt hour produced we see Hydro wind geothermal and nucleus by far the best and radioactive material doesn't even show up it's that little and then of course we have this situation and the quote is from dang Xiao pink he said in the 80s I think that the Middle East has oil China has rare and we are now seeing the consequences of playing ourselves into the hand of the Russian bear with uh using gas and Renewables and I questioned the wisdom of playing ourselves into the hands of the Chinese dragon where we already are all right and here are two books very very good books highly recommendable to read about this okay cost is another big thing and of course people always use Hinckley Point C in UK as a reference point for this uh first of all it's very very untypical but just for the sake of reference it's still a quite an interesting case and the fact is that of course it's the financing as we see which is really expensive if I look at construction cost it's only 17 euro per kilowatt hour to use Norwegian uh terms um and fuel seven uh Opex 11 and waste and decommissioning only five now what makes this so expensive is that the deal that was struck with the government and our French Chinese Consortium was that they also had to provide the financing and they were smart enough to to negotiate a nine percent return on uh profit and with this kind of production over 35 years you actually end up with 100 billion euros in inflation-adjusted profit calculated into this uh strike price and it's a new rafter design of course we've seen that in flamenville and also the Finnish one I've had some issues but this is well known in all Industries uh in marine industries where I come from we have built many things and it's very rarely that the first one is uh out without any problems but also if we look at the Grand picture calculate the lcoe on a number of um discounting rates and number of countries and so on and these are quite revealing and the first thing we need to know is that after the facility has been discounted it's actually very cheap the total nuclear U.S Fleet today operates at about 30 ER per kilowatt hour in terms of price um if we build a new large hydroelectric power plant here in Norway we would actually end up on this level according to envir the Norwegian regulator but look at South Korea is already there on the nuclear on the lcoe and what the South Koreans have realized that the others haven't apparently is that you make one design and you just build the same thing over and over and over again and because of that they haven't had all these rounds of re-licensing changes engineering delays everything they build these reactors at you know between five six seven eight years depending on the local issues it's also very competitive so here I just put up a simple calculation between the South Korean APR 1400 and offshore wind which is now proposed in the North Atlanta North Sea and this is you know it's 1500 megawatt capacity ATA construction time I took the best numbers in the industry which mean we end up at 45 billion knock for this you will produce seven terawatt hours per year for 25 years you need balancing of this which is of course never included and the SUV Target is 60 US dollar per megawatt hour now the APR has 1400 megawatts five-year construction time 30 mega mega knock per megawatt which give you about 42 billion Construction cost 11 terawatt hour per year for 60 years you don't need balancing and the lce is about 30. and if you don't believe me well here are the numbers from Poland this is the numbers from the latest bidding round and as we can see the APR 1400 is about 25 million knock per million per per megawatt and including financing you end up at roughly 30 which is what I used so it's highly competitive time is something we often hear and here's a very nice study from science which is a highly reputed Journal and here we look at 10 years of Rapid um investment and here we see the production per capita and as we see nuclear is by far the most effective and take a look at Sweden they built 12 reactors over 15 years of course it's a smaller country but look at France it's a large country did very rapid escalation so I would say when we look at risk we also have to look at the other risks and the real risk at hand here is a complete failure of the whole transition and these are the the primary energy numbers used I use the substitution method which is the one the the ipcc users and what have we achieved well over 20 years the renewable energy policy have achieved four percent Improvement and you can have hardly see the solar and wind power up here to the right this has so cost so so far cost 2.7 trillion dollars and another interesting fact is that with 99.6 percent correlation with population and we know that every year the the population on the on the planet increases by between 70 to 80 million per year and we see this development we really need to think fresh we need new ideas and I think the what we talked about in this seminar is of course this new idea basically we need to pick up where we left in the 70s but of course with improved Technologies and it's all really about energy density uh here's a very nice chart the dnv has made and you can see diesel is kind of in the cross in the middle so the red area means it's less effective in terms of weight and volume and here we see a number of solution discussed today let's take a look at LNG for example it's a quite good fuel but including the equipment we end up in the red zone so to speak methanol is already there ammonia stair look at batteries almost close to zero almost if we look at hydrogen we are fine let's see what happened now there we go yeah if if we look at hydrogen it's far out to the right which is good in terms of in gramometric density but when we include all the equipment we almost end up in Oregon so now the key is that if this arrow is one meter on this graph then uranium would be 32 000 meters out and thorium would read 38 000 meters out that means if we place those two into this graph this entire graph would be more or less just a point like the batteries here and energy density is something we really need to get back to into this transition and also basic thermodynamic understanding all right so have let's have a look at the deepsea challenge which is really a quite revealing case here we have a mask huge container vessel and if we look at the 580 largest such container vessels ignoring bulkers tankers Cruisers and all the other ones but let's just look at the 580 largest well data from Shanghai to Amsterdam then we know that one of these guys needs about 3 350 megawatt hours per day we'd have a fuel oil that gives us 350 tonne consumption per day or roughly 3 900 tons each way with green ammonia we have half the bone value which means we need twice as much fuel and with 12 megawatt hours per tonne in terms of electrolysis and we assume 80 utilization of the ships we end up with soon just hold on just just for restaurants want tell us our appear in terms of thermal power but green ammonia we need actually 2.2 terawatt hour per year electric power for each ship then of course comes all the losses balancing etc etc that means the entire Norwegian wind production in 2020 could produce almost enough to five such ships if we look at entire energy production Europe sorry electricity production in Europe these 580 largest containers vessel would require almost somewhere between a quarter and a half of Europe's total energy production and if you look at all the heavy fuel oil consumption in the world in the Marine industry about 300 million tons that would would require twice the entire European electricity production obviously completely unrealistic unsustainable by far so I did we did some calculations took a two-stroke heavy fuel oil engine vessel engine this is operating on a tanker between Singapore and the Persian Gulf I dug at some number from the Fuji reactor um work in Japan because they have published quite a lot of details uh of course there's a lot of uncertainty but anyway by the way for reference as we know the modern salt reactor has this freeze plug cut the power and it stops so it's extremely safe in that respect um oh actually in all respects um now if we then look at 30-year lifespan assuming seven percent discounting Factor the Marine the Morton salt reactor would out-compete the heavy fuel oil head on head by almost four or 500 million kroner now we start talking now we can use the power of the economic system this means a better solution will outperform a worse solution keep in mind we did not venture out of the Stone Age because we ran out of stones neither did we start stop burning fire because we ran out of wood you know we used coal we used all the other ones the fossil that we today use because they're more efficient this is the next step that's the point so in terms of shipping then we have two basic possibilities direct nuclear propulsion with a lot of interesting possibilities faster ships lower costs no emissions and of course with a fourth generation reactor preferably walk away safe or at least passive safety of course challenges that we will highlight in a project that is soon coming we can also look at synthetic fuel we can use nuclear reactors on land manufacture stero emission fuel the good thing is that we wouldn't have to change much of today's install bytes lots of potential challenges in terms of the cost you know volume safety might also be in because of hydrogen it's a quite uh what should say quarrelsome atom and a little bit static electricity and so on can give a very very long large explosion it's being said that one kilogram hydrogen is about one kilogram TNT for reference in terms of explosive power so this brings me to the new Pro ship one project that was mentioned earlier here we have obtained 10 million Public Funding and of course some in kind from the companies and this vessel consumes about 40 000 tons fuel heavy fuel oil per year which gives 120 000 tons CO2 720 tons of SO2 and a host of minor emissions including cadmium and that kind of stuff so with the we have said that we need passive or or walk away safe they have to be a certain development stage typical size 50 to 150 megawatts and with the initial project that we have concluded we ended up with three interesting candidates one Mr sealer reactor from Sweden which is originally a Russian depressed reactor but they have done improvements so the Coliseum and we have a look at Hidden cool gas reactor and of course some version of the modern salt reactors we haven't quite decided yet there are quite many different versions to look at all with some pros and cons but all these are interesting cases that will be looked at now but this is not the only thing actually this is only work package one perhaps the most important work packages are number two and three because they they will look at the entire which is a ecosystem around nuclear shipping safety regulations technical implications for the ship operational safety the requirements for the crew and maintenance and the whole uh and everything including you know Port handling and you know docking yeah everything and of course we have to look at the performance in the end so starts in January delayed from August because of the situation in the research Council but here are the companies and organizations involved in this first project and we are also in the project in the process of establishing number two which will be our a genuine development project as you can see this is a concept of feasibility study uh so main objective is to sort out and to identify key requirements that we have to fulfill in really in the next major project yes and in the end I think when we talk about risks and we talk about nuclear it's easy to talk about all the bad things that can happen but we also have to start considering in honest all the good things not happening and I think when we look at the total equation nuclear is by far the best option we have in this energy transition yes and that's it folks thank you so much uh John um the next presenter is Simon um you're handsome so he manages the European Affairs actually at the Norwegian ship Owners Association and has previously headed up their office in Brussels uh since the last two years he's had a particular focus on coordinating input from Shipping into the used fit 455 package he has a background from foreign affairs and trade and has previously also worked for you know you know for enormous mission to the year to Euro and also the Northway North Norway's Brussels office and the U.S embassy in Oslo and he holds a master degree in political economic from bi Norwegian Business School so Simon the screen is yours thanks very much I'll just pull up my presentation here and uh thanks very much for the invitation to uh speak about something uh not nuclear I'll tell you that nuclear is certainly on the agenda among our membership uh we discussed it uh this Tuesday among our members in another seminar here and uh Jan thanks to your presentation I see one of our members Knutson this is it is in your project group so it's certainly something that's uh that's on our agenda um I'll go uh I've been invited to say something about how we have given input into sort of the ongoing environmental regulations that are coming at the EU level for shipping as you know the backdrop of all this of this is that uh ideally we may have wanted some Global regulations environmental regulations but uh in the past two to three years we have seen a real push at the EU level and uh we're really I mean in these couple of months going into Christmas and into the next year we may actually see sort of the finalization of a of a two-year process and have a whole wealth of new environmental regulations uh kicking in for shipping so what I thought I'd do is just uh give you a bit of a a flavor of how we've been covering this from from our membership we represent uh the foreign going Fleet of Norway so about 130 companies 1400 vessels and a fairly diverse Fleet of deep sea short C and also of course the specialty in in offshore um just uh I'll start with a little bit of a process and I hope you can see this the slides here you uh I'm sure you'll be familiar with uh that you use green deal and uh and the fit for 55 package work that's been going on for for two years now um I've been covering this uh from Brussels since uh since 2019 and uh I think we were surprised at that time when the after the election in 2019 uh with the new mandate the new commission like came in uh just how uh large the Ambitions were and how quickly they wanted to move uh and even despite covet and some other Global uh developments we've really seen this work progress very fast and there's they're really on schedule to to implement this so uh so the second large step was of course about a year after the uh the uh presentation of the green deal was to increase the 2030 ambitions and then about a 10-month consultation process to see what exactly will this need in terms of resources and serve sharing the emission cuts and then what what is the actual proposal for a lot of different sectors so uh this all came out last summer in July a massive package the largest package [Music] legal package ever presented at the EU level and we as many other sectors have had a a lot of resources dedicated to just analyzing exactly what our interests and exposure is so uh this is uh this is maybe the map that we've identified for ourselves in shipping uh there are uh 12 or 14 different proposals depending on how you uh count it and for us the main proposals for shipping are of course the revision of the of the ETS the emissions trading system at the EU level so this is I think it's important to stress that this is a revision of the complete missions trading system so we're just a sector that's being taken into the mix but we're only one of many sectors into that proposal and then there's also a dedicated proposal on the on alternative fuels use in Maritime and then these two main proposals of course have to be coordinated very closely with Alternative Energy directives with energy taxation uh with this carbon border adjustment mechanism and a bunch of the others so this is all very interconnected uh for us as I was saying this is really a a massive revision of the emissions trading system uh so while we've been keeping an eye on the shipping interests here this is also being negotiated for a lot of other sectors and the Ambitions are really being turned up uh so you're cutting the overall amount of of emissions allowed uh you want to increase it from from a presenters in the 40s up to 60s by by 2030 and uh also include not only shipping but also uh land transport and other sectors as well uh so that's some of the substance there uh on the on the fuel side there's been proposed sort of a step wise phase-in of requirements on on the CO2 content or the emissions content in your uh or alternative uh the percentage of alternative uh energy in your fuel mix year by year coming and going up to around 75 this is still being negotiated but uh those are sort of the two main pillars uh that we're following from Shipping side just to give you a little bit of a sense of how we've followed it from from uh from Shipping uh we're organized in a European umbrella organization within European shipping so since this is a regional uh initiative uh We've really been sort of spearheading that effort at the European level where the second largest member of this umbrella organization from the Norwegian side and we have probably have the most diverse fleets as well so we have to keep an extra eye out for uh for specialty vessels you know offshore uh yeah we have we have more interest than than somebody others here and in terms of our input into the process we really have been in very close partnership with the commission as they were developing the initial proposal this is uh you know shipping is not an easy sector to regulate with many moving parts and and foreign ownership and a lot of extra factors so uh We've really been a partner in the consultations and I've proposed a lot of the the the models they've that eventually were taken into the The Proposal that came last summer and then we've also been very keen to follow up at the Norwegian level as this sort of churns through the machine in Norway as well the uh what Norway will uh pick up from this and also sort of their input into the process and then uh I'll get back to a little bit of the process that's going now in terms of what this will mean these are some of the variables that we've been considering as we uh as we input into the process I mean initially one of the big reasons probably while shipping hasn't been included is where to draw sort of the the geographic scope of something like this so should Europe start only with the intra-eu shipping should you try to include some other emissions or should you go for all emissions or All Ships sort of uh coming in and out of EU and uh the proposal currently has landed sort of in the middle there will be a full uh quota for emissions within Europe so from port to port within Europe and then 50 of the emissions Sailing In and Out of of Europe so that was a first important point the second point was which ships will be included so there's already a a monitoring and Reporting System for All Ships over 5000 BT GT the uh proposal currently has been reopened a little bit by the Parliament and the council they want to include also smaller ships and uh remove the the exception for offshore if that happens then of course the Norwegian Fleet would be included to a much larger degree and uh and that's something we're following closely uh we're of course interested in uh the cost of all this of the phase-in I think enters our membership we're most interested just to getting some clarity and in terms of uh what the regulations would be who will be included um and when this will start and that's been our approach really from the start we decided there were two ways we could look at this we could either uh try to fight it at the and and ask for Global regulations or we could lean into it and try to uh to have a hand on the wheel I and uh from the Norwegian side we already are very much aligned with the climatric you know or the Ambitions at the European level and we only see this as as a positive to lean into this and just get a system that that works well uh in terms of the process going uh forward we are now in the Final Phase actually so after the package was presented the last summer it was sort of uh pushed over to the European Parliament and to the member states to uh deliberate and take their positions so a lot of the issues that were concluded by the commission initially were then reopened by the different parties and the member states and some of the and they've proposed sort of independently uh adjustments to the package that came last year so we're now into the Final Phase the ETS package is being it's being negotiated as we speak it's going faster than expected so I was in Brussels last week and now the the latest uh ambition is actually to conclude it before New Year's sometime in December we'll see if they manage that but uh that's the plan and on fuel EU and Maritime they just concluded the parliament's position so now they can get into a similar process but between the three institutions uh probably concluding sometime this winter so those will be the main two pillars we're very keen to see this part of the work concluded and uh for us one of the main sort of follow-up points moving on from all this is to see a lot or some of the revenue uh returned to Industry uh this will be a fairly large pot of money coming in from from Shipping we have estimated just most likely the Norwegian contribution will be somewhere between two and three hundred uh million euros a year when it's fully phased in so we're developing some argumentation I want to see uh this money not just sort of going into State budgets and other places but actually going towards uh reading initiatives in the maritime sector maybe uh finally I touched on some of this but uh as we see this process concluding at the at the EU level for this first phase we are working closely with authorities here in Norway to actually map out exactly how this will work in practice you know there are a lot of moving objects we will essentially I think at at this time in the of Norwegian companies included in the UTS it's about 130 140 and most likely it will be up to a hundred new shipping companies so we will almost double the number of uh companies Norwegian companies in the ETS [Music] the for the first time a lot of these uh installations previously it's been a lot of factories now with the ships so there are a lot of moving parts and a lot of moving ownership so we need to nail that down um at the EU level we are preparing actually for the uh most likely when they conclude this uh package they will start work on uh 2040 goals so they will try to flesh out the journey towards 2050 so we we're essentially just getting back in into the same kind of work but working towards 20 40 not just 20 30 and 50.

[01:26:23]and then in the backdrop of all this for shipping it's of course very relevant what effects nailing down this package at the EU level will have on negotiations at the IMO level and this has been going in the background since uh the climate strategy of the IMO or that the Ambitions were were taken in 2018 uh there will be a major revision most likely next summer of of the overall Ambitions uh at the IMO level for the shipping sector and we've also started discussions on sort of the use of Market mechanisms of a levy of maybe a quota system there are different models on the table but we're very uh Curious and Keen to see some progress on that at the IMO level so that was uh that was a bit of a flavor on on what we see coming and some of the effects on shipping but happy to take a few questions thank you so much Simon okay thank you um no further hands for the moment and we will keep Andre on the spotlight he is our next presenter um he graduated back in 2002 with both nuclear engineering and economics University in Romania he also also a master in nuclear safety and radiological protection um you have experience from working at was it much of K units three and four project in Slovakia and then sort of moved on to um working at the nuclear electricity in Romania and now you're in nuclear Europe has been there since 2015 holding in our position on policy policy director so the screen is yours Andre thank you very much I've already intervened several times but very interesting event and thank you very much for for the invitation um yeah I mean I I have to be honest I adjust it a little bit my presentation based on what was presented before so it was said a lot about the smrs um and I will say something about what is going on uh at your level um uh regarding nuclear and the impacts on nuclear on different uh issues some very briefly uh some words about my organization is the trade Association of the nuclear industry we are an association of associations but we have also some corporate members you can see unfortunately we don't have anyone from Norway but we have some non-new members like Ukraine Switzerland and recently UK um yeah we are uh um this is this is the standard slide showing what is the contribution of uh to the EU economy um one point about the 25 on the electricity production this unfortunately will will decrease uh most probably uh these years because uh we are talking about some shutdowns both in Belgium and Germany so we will see but we we are there so one quarter uh more or less it's produced by nuclear even though uh the policies are not mentioning so much this source some some thoughts about the future of nuclear in the EU and yes these are some scenarios um that we were that were published recently um you can see that nuclear will still exist depending uh uh it is depending very much on on the capacity install capacity but also on the final uh uh um production yes it's uh it was a problem with my presentation because we share it I think we'll be back yes thank you yes it's it's it's back um but um in a nutshell uh we we had a report that we we published uh in uh 2021 and uh it's clear that there is a large missing capacity of nuclear between the U.S scenarios and uh what what we are seeing and uh part of this missing capacity of course uh will be also smrs so we can see that there are more and more discussions about the smrs at your level uh well um this is a very general uh slide and it's somehow um in line with what Simon presented is what we are what is the sector focusing on your energy policy so we are looking at a very broad range of policies uh we we are trying to understand how those policies can impact the nuclear sector and of course we are trying to to intervene um we had the um so the the policies are shaped at your level based um mostly on uh on the national energy and climate plans the energy policies and we did the screening of this National energy and climate plans and you can see that there are a lot of member states some of them uh uh not operating nuclear reactors which are still uh considering and having um uh mentioned in uh in the documents the nuclear depending uh different uh different areas and the balance of power powers in because we are we are talking about politics and um uh I will it was mentioned also the council in the council so we have 27 member states and in the past we had 28 but with the departure of uh of UK with the brexit we lost somehow the the center of the weight because uh of course UK was very uh supportive for nuclear you can see uh well there are not all the member states mentioned but you can see that we have quite strong uh nuclear opponents of Austria Germany and luxembour the trio Italy is still like a nuclear opponent but we we have to see because things are changing there were some mentions about exactly about smrs in in Italy then we have the the pro-nuclear member states which are uh clearly uh mentioned and we can see that Central and Eastern European countries France and Finland but also uh recently we we have good news from from student and there are some countries which are still assessing their future their nuclear Futures Spain they are operating a fleet of reactors but they didn't decide yet on the long-term operation or other new build Poland some recent announcements is still in uh they still mentioned as considering their nuclear future but I I think that we can change it to green and Estonia for example is considering to build an SMR also Belgium is still assessing the the future some some developments of the policies that I was mentioning before so the European green deal very uh uh uh very important initiative of this commission so European Union fit for 55 55 is coming from the carbonization targets for 20 2030 and then we have net zero emissions by 2050 so this is the the carbonization target but we have also some targets other targets for renewable and Energy Efficiency we always consider that those targets are should be only let's say to help not to to have clear targets for other Technologies or initiatives but uh I guess the policy makers are still considering so we had uh in uh in the previous packages uh 40 for Renewables and just from 36 to 39 for Energy Efficiency and um this is that the carbonization path and uh I'm going back to what Robert said about uh 2030 you can see 2030 is around the corner I would say but very interesting uh the EU is aiming at the carbonizing the power sector one of the first sectors to uh to to reach Net Zero and it's in 2040 so um the the time is uh very short I would say and the ambitious are very very high and I was mentioning our report from 2021 it's a very interesting it's a very interesting outcome you you can see that for the for 2013 2032 um uh no 20 23 2027 sorry on medium term it's very interesting that in the low nuclear scenario the emissions are actually the emissions of of the power sector are increasing so uh but if we are not choosing uh to to continue the operation of the existing nuclear Fleet after that since the uh are getting on track but this is something of a very high concern then we had the repower you the newest initiative and I was again about targets those were the targets presented before now we are going even more so the targets are more ambitious so more Renewables and the Energy Efficiency as well we don't have more information how does those targets will be achieved but it's a very interesting uh chart about the grossing land uh consumption by Fuel and you can see in 2030s fit for 55 was forecasting those figures and then uh in the new repower you we have new figures very interesting that actually nuclear uh with dark blue here it's it's increasing but we don't understand exactly where this increase is coming from I hope that it's uh is coming from some smrs were taking into consideration one very very important point and a very important piece of legislation that we were following for the last two years and a half I think and it's very important because we are coming this can have a very big impact on the financing of nuclear and we saw that the financing is is very expensive so it's the is the sustainable finance and we had finally uh adopted on 15th of July the complementary delegated act which are considering a nuclear uh as well gas with of course some disclaimers are considering a screen those disclaimers are uh regarding the Technologies and the they are considering both Technologies gas and nuclear as transitional but for nuclear there are some for generation four uh there are not so uh there is not uh deadline I would say so uh with Generation 4 and the advantage is brought by the generation four reactors we can think about uh way longer uh perspective for nuclear um legally challenged I will not get into details but this was a big I would say success that we managed to achieve recently then another very uh important topic and very trendy Topic at you level it's about the hydrogen hydrogen strategy we had a position paper where we are mentioning that nuclear can also uh produce hydrogen help producing hydrogen through electrolysis but later on also with the high temperature reactor uh directly using the high temperature Heat one very important matter would be that the ambitious are very very high on on the usage of the hydrogen I'm not sure if all the industries are ready to incorporate such a big consumption of of hydrogen I'm saying that and I'm I think that it's it's uh it's important to to be highlighted because sometimes the policies are made um uh starting from uh from the targets and after that trying to to to to get uh to the results one thing that we are keep saying uh so beside the hydrogen uh we are talking about the production of heat of the nuclear reactors a large small micro and also Advanced reactors um hit or District Heating and Industry processes and of course I think that from this slide now I realize that is missing the transport so I have to to think about it and another thing that we have to keep in mind that the nuclear is not just the power it's having different other applications and definitely it's a strong point that we have to make some figures about uh comparison of nuclear with other low carbon Technologies so for one terabitha Tower produce um electricity uh each technology generates and you can see what are the numbers on billion euros on the ugdb per year so you can see that nuclear is very high also the comparison on jobs you can find more in in our report published on 2019.

[01:42:19]and also a very very uh interesting about the impact of nuclear on the uh the sharehold on the eugdp it's very important to uh to mention that and the the figures are so high or the importance of nuclear is so high because it's um I would say a very localized sector or technology so most of the components are produced here in in Europe so that's why the impact is so high so we are not importing um and yes consequently not having such a high impact some some thoughts about security of energy Supply and energy prices because we are talking uh these days about these issues um very high energy concentration and there is no problem with uraniums shortages this is another risk that the anti-nuclear organizations are seeing um and also when we are talking about Uranus supplies we see that for example 20 are coming from from Russia uh in uh in 2021 but the the market is flexible enough to um to provide enough uranium resources uh from elsewhere and on Energy prices uh this is an uh I think it's an interesting figure regarding the impact of of the price of uranium on the overall um production costs so you can see that the fuel overall it's only 34 percent out of uh the nuclear operating cost and out of it uranium is 41 so all in all we have around 14 15 uh the impact of the uranium in the overall operating cost and if the uranium costs are increasing with 10 percent the impact on on the operating cost are minimum and some words about smaller modular reactors here I remove some slides because they were very well presented before us we had a position paper very recently published you can see what it's it's more a general position paper what is the position of the in the nuclear industry towards the smrs um it's we are using for the discussion with the policy makers and to to raise awareness about this technology not going into the definition it was said before but we can see that we have really a lot of a lot of designs proposed in different stages and maybe the most important is the the newest timeline proposed by the iaea it was a document recently published and we can see that 2030 is coming it's around the corner and we see that a lot of them might be deployed by then it's interesting to see how this timeline is developing over the years so you can see the comparison between uh two editions of the same document the the scenes are speeding up and it's a very good uh it's a very good news I would say and I wanted just to highlight some of the designs that are foreseen for some organizations in Europe um to to deploy to be deployed so we have um pvrx Rolls-Royce Newark and new scale I cannot pronounce the new uh the new acronym it's a little bit complicated and there is another one from Czech Republic the platter I saw it it's for 2021 2029 but and hopefully they will succeed to keep the the timeline so all in all this is uh this is uh the presentation from my site these are the the uh the differences so single unit or multiple units and some pictures about the the reactors to be deployed in in Europe and also in our uh report 2020 November 2021 we were keeping we were taking into account some figures about smrs and Generation 4 but I can tell you that is more smrs and I'm pretty sure that these figures are much higher these days so we are trying to to get new figures and uh to publish something new on uh on this uh topic thank you very much for your attention and I'm open for questions thank you so much uh Andre then we will move on to our next presenter let's see that's uh your name has Tommy he's a geologist and geophysicist for with background from Statler and also former professor at the University of Birmingham he became the chairman recently and acting CEO of the nuclearpovics.orges a company that aims at building nuclear power plants in Norway so and he has to get away with Dr cinnabaros written numerous newspaper articles on the climate change energy and the nuclear power so the screen is yours your name we look forward to the presentation thank you very much it's such a great pleasure to be able to speak to your lesser the the CEO of this nuclear power startup in Norway so what I was thinking I would do was to say a few words about this company and then go on to say why we think in nuclear power is a good idea for um for Norway so just to start off with uh with a team so with me on the management team I have then soon above also who is the CEO uh the the CCO the chief communication officer in the company we have um Stephen who is the chief engineer and we have hoba questions and who is the Chief Operating Officer and I must say I'm very very pleased to have been able to gather together so it's a fantastic team of competent people on the board with me I have the questions who is the C CFO of another company I have success who is a geologist and also storm who is a wrestler engineer we have worked together for many many years we know each other really well and uh we think that is a great Advantage when we are moving forward and then of course if you want to build a nuclear power company and all but you need some good investors so what we have here is tonmun who is a renowned industrial Builder from west coast of Norway building up by far more engineering and he is also one of the Richer men in Norway and with him we have lost molista who is who has been working with oil service industry for many many years we have also partnered up with a couple of entities very pleased to have partnered off with IFA and of course I don't need to say anything about them because you know already know a lot about the heifers so I will draw the attention to Apollo plus which is a Swiss based consultancy company with very extensive experience within regulations and security aspects they have been engaged and been Consulting a number of nuclear organizations worldwide so that's a very good startup um building a nuclear power company in Norway is it's going to take time we know this is we're talking a decade ahead in time at least before we can get anything uh in place so what we are in need of doing is to have a shorter term perspective on what we can do over the next few years so for the period until uh the end of 2025 we are going to focus on identifying areas that are suitable for small modular reactors then we are going to focus on the preparing the basis for a license application and a very important thing in Norway since we don't have nuclear power from beforehand is the communication to the politicians and to the public we see that it's like I guess with Iceland where you don't have snakes that's a country where they're most afraid of snakes and I think you know is a little bit similar in that respect when it comes to nuclear power and in addition to that we are focusing on securing strategic and Industrial Partnerships so that is that is a short term perspective or then this and if we succeed I think we can see small modular reactors in Norway in the 1930s going on a little bit uh just to put things in a bigger context why we think this is there is a change that will also happen in Norway but starting looking at a bit globally here we see from the BP statistical review the uh change in energy consumption in period from 1990 to 2020 and what we can see here is that there has been an increase in energy consumption of 60 percent so even though new Renewables are growing the share of Renewables and the total energy mix and I'm talking both inside and outside the electricity grid then we see that in 1990 that was 14 today it is 12 which is telling us that Renewables are still not yet even able to keep up the pace of the increase in energy consumption and because of that fossil fuels are increasing and we see how nuclear with the with the orange color here they are staying fairly stable so when we move ahead from 2020 to 2050 it will be speculations of what what will actually happen but it does make sense to say that nuclear power should have an important role in that perspective so when you look at this totality of the energy sources we know that all the energy sources have their advantages and disadvantages so it's it's weighing the pros and cons against each other and we have done a fairly uh intense and deep study using published articles in renowned journals to look at these parameters that it that are now becoming a part of the common taxonomy evaluations so when you do life cycle analysis but this is a study we did where we looked at emissions mortality land use material use cost waste and stability and suniva and I are in particular we are presenting this through these articles in the newspapers where we try to illustrate the disadvances and advantages of the different energy sources and we can see we're highlighted nuclear uh with the with the yellow circle here you see it comes out pretty well in all these evaluations I won't go in detail on that there is no time for that but if you put all of those together and you look at the totality of asking yourself which energy source has the least negative imprint on climate Health economy nature and the environment then I'm going to show you a graph where we have done exactly that so when it comes to these parameters mortality emission land use and so on it is subjective how important they are some people within climate or emission of CO2 is by far the most important other people are concerned about nature other people are concerned about the air pollution things like that so you can go in on this website and then you can actually do your own weighting of these different parameters I've just put some in here 50 for mortality emissions of CO2 is most important hundred percent land use is 75 and so on but however you weight these parameters you end up finding that nuclear comes out with the lowest negative imprint on climate Health economy nature and the environment this is sort of the things we're trying to tell people in Norway until the politicians that nuclear is not as bad as many have the perception on and luckily there has been some reports coming out lately and I think for all of those who are in this nuclear uh environment talking about this we need to really understand these two reports the uppermost here is from The Joint Research Center it's the science panel of the of the EU and they did a very extensive study that was published last year whether in particularly it looked at the issues of safety and handling of waste and what they concluded is that modern nuclear power like the ones that are being built in Europe today in Finland in Great Britain that is the safest energy source we have in fact they say in the report that if all the existing nuclear power plants in the world were replaced by these modern epr uh nuclear power plants then you could expect from a significant accident you could expect a casualty every 315 year that means three casualties every thousand year there is not there's no water energy sources even close somebody will fall off the roof mounting solar panels on the roof long before that time period has passed and then when it comes to the waste handling what they are saying is that it's perfectly safe to store radioactive waste a few hundred meters in a subsurface like they do in Finland so and then they say they do an evaluation of it and refer to some of these Finnish studies where they say that if there were to be a leakage of this waste in a distant future the radiation that the public living in the area would be subjected to would be actually far lower than the background radiation you are subjected to anyway so what they're saying is that it's perfectly safe I think this is very important this report extremely important of course it was used to uh by the European commission and and regarding the taxonomy evaluation but then there was a new report that came out very recently and this is from the United Nations economic commission for Europe and what they were doing they did a life cycle analysis of all the different energy sources and again part of the taxonomy evaluation and what this report says and this is I think for the green parties I think this would be extremely important as well what they are saying is that nuclear power have has the lowest negative impact on ecosystems which is about climate nature and the environment on the resource use which is the minerals and metals and also on human health including cancer so what these reports are saying and the people may disagree with the content of the reports but any need to substantiate that what because what these reports are saying is that nuclear power is in fact the best choice for the climate for the nature for the environment and for the human health so with that in mind then we are moving over and saying well should we have then nuclear power in Norway we do hear and we heard that also during the presentation today that Norway is lucky we have hydropower but although we have electrified a lot of our energy use the majority of the energy we are using is still outside the electricity grid 60 percent is outside and it is being used for heating and transportation so those 60 that's fossil fuels so even if Noah has gotten far within the electricity uh the mix then where it's all renewable we still have a long way to go we're far better off than many countries in Europe but we still have a way to go so when I hear people talking about uh we can fix it by Energy Efficiency upgrading hydropower plants and putting solar power on the roofs and then we we don't need more uh energy I think they are missing that point the other thing and we saw uh earlier today the robots bringing up the energy transition from from this dnv report where they're saying they expect to be a million more people in 2050. they're all going to use the electricity and then we plan for energy intensive industry like battery factories Hydro uh hydrogen plants and then carbon capture and storage such things so what they are saying that if you do extensive Energy Efficiency and you do structural changes then you can limit the increase to maybe then another 100 terabyte hour by 2050.

[02:00:28]that's an increase of 65 from today's level the problem with that is that you're approaching 40 of the energy mix coming from weather dependent uh power sources and now I'm saying hundred power is not the weather dependent we have seen that it actually can be so what I'm saying then is that the majority of the production of the new production is the is going to come from wind power 75 percent and of course we are then in order to handle that because we then get Pro when the wind is blowing we actually need to uh have cables going down to the continent of Europe so that we can Import and Export as needed yeah what that means is that we are then relying on uh a Europe that is in currently in an energy crisis and that has a much further way to go to reason that zero Target and do the electrification of their own countries so I think there is a challenge for us there and it was highlighted in a very recent report that came up from uh nve and the stock net where they're saying that we're moving towards the trend now in Norway where we don't have a much adjustable production capacity and the uh if we have wind per periods it will lead to a high demand for other types of generations simultaneously in many countries and because they there will be weather situations that can affect large areas covering many countries they are saying that there is an uncertainty as to how much production capacity will be available at any given time for imports this is why I think it's it's like if you are then to do something about it they also say that this will have very high investment cost and I think this is a very serious issue that the politicians in Norway need to address and there is one solution that can do something about it and help out the the challenge that that lies ahead and that is implementing small modular reactors in Norway and these we have talked about them before these small modular reactors that are mass produced and dedicated factories here we see an example in a background which is from Tae Itachi and uh we have a couple of other ones Rolls-Royce up in the in the right corner we think that for Norway it makes sense to start off with sort of Generation 3 plus reactors based on existing technology that's going to be a quicker way to to get those in place in the long run then we can move to generation four and Multan salt directors and so on I I like the idea we have some we have a lot of Coastline suitable for small modular reactors but we have we are very fond of our nature so taking one of these that occupies the area of a football stadium rather than placing windmills covering an area of 100 square kilometer for a similar amount of of power output it makes a lot of sense I worked in the oil industry for many years I've led a few oil companies and I can see that the cost of these things is similar to actually the cost of building out a small oil field but when I look at the economics of it I see that you have at least as high economic potential and I think this is a fantastic thing I think actually the oil companies should be maybe one of the where the those who should be financing this we don't need with this kind of uh modules we don't need State subsidies we can do this private and this is what we are aiming on and also think for uh for the municipalities in Norway where where people are living a lot of people are working in the oil and gas industry and we know that's going to be phased out and then I think it's very good to address the fact that nuclear power creates jobs this is a study from the internationally international monetary fund where they say that nuclear power provides the highest paying jobs one-third more than Renewables that it provides 25 more employment than wind power and also local employees and only nuclear power provides significant and sustainable work beyond the construction phase so I think those are important arguments in favor of nuclear in Norway and finally the last slide we do see that the population opinion the opinion in the population is changing there was a reason Norse that study where 38 are now in favor of nuclear power in Norway to help solve the climate crisis whereas 32 percent are against that means in Norway we have reached this fantastic achievement there are no more people uh people the more people in favor than are against and very recently we we saw this there was a climate survey that came from Canton where they looked at onshore wind the nuclear power they've done this this polls back to the 2009 and we say in 2009 nine percent were in favor of nuclear power now it's 41 this year whereas on show win was 70 or close to 70 in 2009 no it's down to 43 seems like wind is now taking a bit of an elevator downstairs while we are taking the elevator going up and I think that is excellent for a stock company called the North Carolina thank you very much thank you so much very good with that I think I would like to thank everyone for participating in this webinar on small modular reactors I would give a special thanks to our all our speakers also especially the external ones um I think we had some good dialogue but the dialogue would not stop here and we will have to continue this in a different for us so with that I thank you all for participating