"GET OUT NOW!" Signs You're Lying Next to The Most Dangerous Man You'll Ever Meet | Gad Saad

Added: 2026-05-14

[00:00:00]The number one most dangerous person in a woman's life in every culture that's ever been studied is her husband. And the number one reason why he goes into a homicidal rage is the exact same reason in every culture that's ever been studied. And that is >> I've heard you say that the most dangerous person a woman's ever going to be with or meet in her life is her husband.

[00:00:29]>> Indeed.

[00:00:31]>> That's a really hard pill to swallow.

[00:00:33]>> Can you explain why that is true?

[00:00:36]>> Thank you for that question because it actually in answering it that's how I first was exposed to evolutionary psychology. So let me give you my my evolutionary genesis story. So first semester as a doctoral student at uh I I did my PhD at Cornell and the professor at the time his name is Dennis Regan.

[00:00:53]About halfway through the course he assigns a book called Homicide written by husband and wife team pioneers of evolutionary psychology. In the book, what they argue is that there are certain recurring patterns of criminality that occur in exactly the same way whether it's 500 years ago or 500 years from now, whether it's the Yanomo tribe in the Amazon or the Hutza tribe in central Africa or in downtown LA. And the reason for that is because there are certain evolutionary triggers that cause these universal patterns of criminality. And so I'll discuss two criminal behaviors. is one of which speaks to what you started off with your question. First, I'll do child abuse.

[00:01:36]When I walk into first day of lectures to my students, I say, "What is the number one predictor of there being child abuse in a home?" And so then I'll start listing all the different possible answers. If the parent had been abused, they might repeat that pattern. If there is alcoholism in the home, there might be greater abuse.

[00:01:56]>> If the parent had a criminal background, >> if the parent had a criminal background, if they live on the wrong side of tracks, maybe. So all reasonable ones and then once I've generated >> 20 answers I go well none of you have come up with the correct answer which is 100fold more predictive of child abuse than anything you've mentioned here. So statistically speaking it's a astoundingly powerful effect and the answer is if there is a steparent in the house it's a 100fold greater likelihood of child abuse. Now the evolutionary answer >> the Cinderella >> it's a Cinderella effect and it it >> so a subsequent book literally called the Cinderella effect and Cinderella is a universally appreciated fable because it speaks to this universal reality this evolutionary based reality which is that the evil stepmother was differentially evil. She was evil to the stepdaughter but very sweet to the two biological daughters. Yes.

[00:03:04]>> And so >> so what would be an evolutionary explanation for that? Let's look at another animal species. I always like to use the lion one. So within the feline world only lions are a social species.

[00:03:15]All the other ones are solitary animals.

[00:03:17]They only get together for mating and then they're off. But lions run in prides. So, usually there are a couple of resident dominant males who will kick out all of the young bucks because they want to only have sexual access to the lionesses.

[00:03:34]>> And then all of these really frustrated young males are roaming around the savannah trying to get access to some females. Eventually, father time catches up to you and the new males that come in to take over your pride will sort of give you two choices. We either fight to the death and you're likely to lose cuz you're slowing down or you're banished.

[00:03:58]>> Now, the first thing that the new dominant incoming males do is they kill off >> the young >> all the cubs. Why?

[00:04:09]>> Because they couldn't have been sired by me. I do invest very heavily in my cubs because we are a social species. I don't want to spend my time investing in another male's cubs. Therefore, the best way to solve that problem is to kill them off. Now, here's the paradoxical, if not ironic, if not cruel part. Once you kill off the cubs, the females go into estrus. They become sex. So, I joke with my students in the human context, you have to play Barry White music to get the ladies in the mood. In lion societies, you kill off her babies for her to be sexually receptive.

[00:04:51]>> The bigger lesson here is that nature doesn't care about being kind. It wants to solve evolutionarily relevant problems. And so at times it could seem really nasty and brutish, but that's how evolution solves it. So coming back to the human context, when you have either a stepmother or stepfather in the home, the type of abuse will be different. So for example, sexual abuse is much more likely to happen if it's a stepfather.

[00:05:19]But other forms of abuse are likely to happen if there's a stepmother. For example, differential neglect, that will be one of the ways by which the stepmother will be nasty and brutish to the stepchild. Okay. So that's one. But to your question, the second thing that I remember from the book that had sort of stopped me in my track, the number one most dangerous person in a woman's life in every culture that's ever been studied is her long-term partner, her husband. And the number one reason why he goes into a homicidal rage is the exact same reason in every culture that's ever been studied, and that is either realized or suspected infidelity.

[00:06:03]So sometimes it might not even be the case jealousy.

[00:06:06]>> So then the next question then becomes so why have men evolved the behavioral, emotional and cognitive patterns to be so unforgiving of infidelity.

[00:06:22]Now usually when I ask this in class, oh because men are jerks, because men are insecure. Now those might all be true, but they're not the ultimate Darwinian why. what's called the ultimate explanation. The ultimate explanation is that we are a biparental species.

[00:06:37]Meaning that across mamleian species, human dads are actually super dads. We may not invest as much as women, but we are heavily invested. So your ancestors and mine, Lisa, it's certainly the male ones would not have been the types of males who say, "Please, sexy gardener, Greek gardener, have at it with my wife and don't worry about it. I'll be happy to raise spiros on your behalf." Right?

[00:07:05]Therefore, I evolved the behavioral system, the cognitive system, the emotional system to try to thwart the biggest threat that I face, which is paternity uncertainty. Right? And therefore you cheat on me I'm coming after you. Now a lot of times sorry to say imbeciles will will hit back and say this is why I hate evolutionary psychology because professor sad you are justifying these things and that's like saying that an oncologist who offers an explanation and in many cases an evolutionary explanation for cancer he is justifying cancer. He is procancer.

[00:07:43]You're not justifying anything. You're saying if you wish to truly understand a behavior, you need to understand its ultimate causation. I'm not for child abuse. I'm not for domestic violence, but to the extent that it regrettably happens, here is the reason why it does.

[00:08:00]>> Yeah. Thank you for saying that. I am definitely the person that wants to understand why. My entire life changed.

[00:08:05]I went from a stay-at-home wife that didn't feel like I had a voice to tell my husband I was unhappy to then speaking up, changing my life, and being where I am now. And it all came from personal ownership. The personal ownership started when I started go why do I do that? Like I see this behavior in me. It doesn't help me. Why? Once I go to evolution, I don't judge myself for it. I go oh now I understand how am I going to use this information to then be able to go towards my goals and live my life. So just so that you know I don't feel like this is an excuse. It's an explanation. And I desperately want my community to hear why >> so that they can then go, okay, now I understand it. Jealousy is a very heightened thing that can become extremely dangerous. Therefore, I need to find someone who isn't triggered by jealousy. Like I would just then start to use that information to be able to then guide my life. Okay? So thinking about jealousy um on a spectrum because there are some people like in full transpar I'm not jealous at all. If my husband cheats on me then he doesn't deserve me. Like I have built that type of confidence. So when you think of a spectrum, there are people like me that aren't jealous at all and there are people that are freaking hyper jealous to the point where let's say a waitress walks past you and I'm like why did you look at her? Right? Like that type of jealousy. So what type of trait maybe is maybe the right word that you can look out for where a man is either not jealous at all or so hyper jealous that they can become one of these stats where they end up sadly killing their wives.

[00:09:36]So there is the the the feature that you're talking about which is >> All right guys, we'll be right back with Dr. Gadsad. But real quick, if you've ever gotten value from a single Women of Impact episode, please go ahead and smash the subscribe button or use the QR code right here. It's how YouTube knows that you value this channel that the content really does actually matter and it helps me keep building this powerful community of all of us who are just done settling. So please go ahead and show the love by subscribing. Now back to the episode.

[00:10:05]So there is the the the feature that you're talking about which is can we pick up the particular cues and traits in a man but the other part of that tango is does a person induce jealousy in me. Oh >> right. So right so for example I don't think I'm a particularly jealous person but luckily I picked a woman who has never triggered that in me. Right? So, for example, some women really, if I may say, get off on testing the investment in their partner by trying to invoke jealousy in them. Right?

[00:10:43]>> I don't know if it's deliberate, and I'd love to hear your thoughts, >> but sometimes it's because if you feel insecure and you don't feel like your partner loves you, if you're able to trigger jealousy in that instant, >> that shows that he's invested in me.

[00:10:56]>> Yes. like, okay, this feeling that I had that he wasn't into me, he just showed that he cares.

[00:11:01]>> So, but to to answer your question, uh I think men will become progressively more controlling in a relationship if they are dispositionally jealous. So, at first I didn't mind that you went out with your girlfriends, but now I get really upset if you go out with them.

[00:11:20]Now, I try to isolate you from the rest of your family. So I literally take ownership over you right there. There really is a very predictable patterns of behavior that you see in pathologically jealous men. And so to our earlier point, if you see those red flags, maybe run the other way because those traits, if they're dispositional, right?

[00:11:42]>> One of the things that we talk about in psychology is whether a phenomenon is a situational one or a dispositional one.

[00:11:50]Situational means it's the situation at hand. You sat there being very flirty with this guy that in this one situation and he happened to be gorgeous and and and so on that I felt jealous. But dispositionally my disposition is I'm not a jealous person. So it's very important when we're >> uh ascribing causality to things in our lives to establish whether they're due to the situation or to the disposition.

[00:12:17]Right? And by the way, there's literally a psychological bias called the fundamental attribution error which speaks to that whereby you attribute, for example, situational causation to something when it should have been dispositional. So this guy that I'm starting to date is exhibiting a lot of jealousy uh traits because I like him and I don't want this to serve as a red flag. I will attribute it to a situational factor. Oh, it's probably because I was dressed very sexily and I was dancing. Whereas the reality is I should have actually attributed to his disposition. And it doesn't matter what I wear and how I act, this guy is always going to be pathologically controlling.

[00:13:04]>> And will you only see the disposition over time?

[00:13:08]>> If your eyes are open, you should be able to pick up those cues. But as we said earlier, oftentimes we put on those rosecolored prism glasses because we don't want to see those flags. So >> yeah, that's so true. And to your point of how you may trigger jealousy in someone deliberately to feel better about yourself. Um I also find that when one partner is jealous, the other person may escalate their jealousy to match.

[00:13:32]And that's actually what happened with me. I wasn't a jealous person. My ex-boyfriend was always jealous of me.

[00:13:38]And so I became jealous almost because he was.

[00:13:40]>> Wow. Interesting. Well, this is not quite what you just said, but there is something in actually mating uh literature that talks about assortative mating. There are two ways that we could pick our partners. Opposites attract or birds of a feather flock together. And the the literature, and I think this is going to appeal to your community, the literature is overwhelmingly and unequivocally clear that for increasing the likelihood of the long-term success of your union, birds of a feather flock together is much more the relevant predictor. Now, for short-term mating, having opposites attract maximum can work, right? I might be sexually restrained, you might be sexually outgoing. That complimentarity actually brings the best out of both of us. But for long-term stability, you want someone who shares your values. And so you really want birds of a feather to flock together. There is actually one physical trait that also applies to a sort of mating, and that's that men should be always taller than women. So there was a study that was done with 720 uh actual couples. Guess how many of the 720 violated that that rule.

[00:14:57]>> Um, it's like probably like what? One.

[00:14:59]>> Exactly. That's exactly right.

[00:15:01]>> I was like, it's going to be really freaking loud.

[00:15:02]>> And so whenever we're walking because my children have me as their dad when we could be walking somewhere and and and if that rule is violated, they say, "Oh, look. That's amazing. They're like that's a violation of the evolutionary principle."

[00:15:16]>> I don't know if you heard the story. So, Back to the Future. um when it was made, I don't know if you know, but before they shot it with um Michael J. Fox, they actually filmed half the film with a different actor. And halfway through they realized the actor wasn't right. So the director just went to the studio and was like, "We have to replace and we have to replace. We have to do all of like the whole thing again." Then they're like, "Well, do we have to replace the girlfriend as well?" And because Michael J. Fox was shorter, the girlfriend that was already cast was actually taller than Michael J. Fox. So they're like, "I don't know. Do we do we replace her? Do we not? So, the story goes that they went around the whole studio of all the crew that was working there and they said to all the women, "Would you rather see Michael J. Fox with someone shorter or taller? What's more likely?" And unanimously, it was shorter.

[00:16:02]>> There you go.

[00:16:03]>> So, they actually end up replacing the actress as well.

[00:16:05]>> And so, by the great story, I didn't know that. Uh, so made choice is a what I call a compensatory process. And let me explain what I mean by that. I if it were the case that women said, "I will never date a guy who's under six feet," that would be non-compensatory. Why?

[00:16:27]Because that means if I'm shorter than 6 feet, I can never compensate what >> for not meeting that requirement.

[00:16:34]Luckily for both sexes, mate choice is compensatory. Meaning that we do choose people as a result of a bundle of attributes. And I always joke I if it were that it's only sixoot guys, then I would have had a very frustrated life of celibacy. But because I could compensate for not being sixoot by having other traits that women desire, then it all works out. And so for all of the men and women out there, this should be good news. That's so true. Growing up in I was born in 79, so growing up in the 80s and 90s, it was big boobs and I didn't have big boobs and I was like, well, I guess I got to make up for it somewhere else because I don't have the boobs.

[00:17:15]There you go.

[00:17:15]>> So, to the same height thing. Um, I'd like to go back to something you were saying about like the lions. So, when I think about alphas, like alpha lions, >> I think of them as being rather protective of their their their unit.

[00:17:29]These days though, when I think about the alphas, like unfortunately Epstein and people that were named, it feels like it's the opposite. What is it about power and the psychology of men that makes them not just successful, but utterly dangerous?

[00:17:43]>> So, one of the best ways for men to get access to tons of women is to become very high status. Right? If you ask women in desperate cultures, what is the number one trait that you most desire in a man? It will be some cue related to social status. Now, each culture might measure social status differently. But there is no culture that's ever been uncovered where women say, "Give me an apathetic, whiny, loser who is pear-shaped with a effeminite voice that really drives me into a sexual frenzy."

[00:18:18]Right? So all women desire someone who is either high status or has the capacity to become high status. So many of those men that those men that you're talking about by virtue of them becoming high status men now have access to as many women as they can hope to have and it becomes very easy to fall into the allure of that trap. And regrettably, I think a lot of women, I'm speculating here, they might actually pick up those micro cues of deception, but they're willing to shut them off because the promise of landing this high status, gorgeous guy is simply too alluring. And therefore, they don't listen to their gut. And in retrospect, later on, they say, you know, there were 17 red flags, but I was willing to shut them off because he just had such a smooth way about him. M I believe you call it the ostrich parasite something.

[00:19:11]>> Well, it I use it in a slightly different context, but it applies here.

[00:19:15]>> So, ostrich parasitic syndrome, >> the ostrich doesn't literally bury its head in the sand, but it's become a metaphor for someone who goes la, I don't I don't want to hear it. Right?

[00:19:26]And so what often times will happen in those male female dynamics is that the one who is being deceived really in the back of their minds are well aware that there is manipulative intent. But I shut off that. I bury my head in the sand because you know what? What if he is really a great guy? By the way, I have a there's someone that I know who's very close dear friend of mine.

[00:19:49]>> At one point prior to getting married, he's now divorced from this woman. He uncovered something about her that was so astoundingly duplicitous that it should have been the biggest red flag.

[00:20:02]The red flag is bigger than this place that we're sitting in right now. And yet he decided to shut off that signal.

[00:20:10]Later on him and I were were chatting. I said, "How come you didn't hear?" He goes, "Well, you know, I was just trying to come in and start my life well." And so he shut off that signal. So it's not only women who are manipulated by, you know, duplicitous men. It can go either way.

[00:20:24]>> Yeah, for sure. Um, thank you for explaining that analogy. I love it so much. Um, okay. So, now let's just take Epstein.

[00:20:32]What comes first? Like the kind of the chicken or the egg. Is it that Epstein had dangerous tendencies and traits in him before anyone knew who he was and he used that to get powerful? Or was it that he actually got powerful and therefore realized that he could become dangerous without consequences?

[00:20:50]>> I think it's a bit of both, right? Uh I mean I know of a lot of men who have some manipulative machvelian intelligence. Not to be too hyperbolic sometimes could have slight psychopathic tendencies and some of those traits are actually what allows them to ascend the hierarchy. But in in the case of Epstein uh we're talking about you know pedophilia. And so that I mean but by the way as a side note in my in my forthcoming book I talk about the suicidally empathetic. And so there is an academic movement that tries to soften the image of pedophiles by altering the name from pedophile to a minor attracted person. Have you heard of that?

[00:21:37]>> Yes. It's like oh my god now we're trying to soften it so we don't >> You don't want to marginalize the pedophiles. Yeah. or in certain places.

[00:21:45]What's crazy is they're trying to change the age.

[00:21:47]>> That's right.

[00:21:48]>> So, they're trying to make um what's legal now lower so that people aren't arrested for pedophilia, which is crazy.

[00:21:54]>> It's unbelievable.

[00:21:55]>> Coming up, >> the argument there would be that the reason why evolution has not selected out any psychopathic tendencies in any human being is because there are ecosystems where it would pay to be psychopathic.

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[00:23:12]Um, talk to me about predatory advantages. So, it seems like a lot of men who are willing to lie and deceive get way more advantage and maybe get more women than the person that's actually being honest and truthful.

[00:23:28]>> Well, I mean, women are certainly prone to being attracted to beautiful words, right? There's a great song which probably your community is not familiar with but they should go and try to listen to it. There's a song by Dalida.

[00:23:42]>> Oh >> Dalida was a very famous uh Egyptian singer. She has a song called parole parole which means words. And the whole point of the song if you listen to the words it's it's sang in French.

[00:23:56]Basically, she's saying, you know, your beautiful words might sort of land in my ears, but they will never sort of land in my heart. Because the the manipulative guys are able to exactly know what are the words that I have to share with you to hopefully get to my ultimate destination, which is hopefully to get some intimacy with you. Uh again to our earlier point, I think a lot of women do have the instinct to pick up on those manipulative cues, but they are so overwhelmed by this the soft beautiful words that uh they shut off that red flag. It's a it's a dangerous game.

[00:24:33]>> So explain to me why we do it then. Why do we switch off our gut instinct when it's I think the one thing that us women have as our compass?

[00:24:43]>> Yeah. So let me if I could step back. So there there's something called in evolutionary theory parental investment theory.

[00:24:50]>> It basically explains the the dynam the sexual dynamics across every sexually reproducing species.

[00:24:59]>> I'll bring it back to humans in a second, but let's do it across all species. So for most species, >> women or females bear the much greater minimal obligatory parental investment, right? Meaning you have to actually go through gestation, right? In the human case, it's about 80,000 calories that you have to use to go through gestation.

[00:25:21]You're much more likely to die during childirth. You're much more open to predators. If you, Lisa, lie to me about your intent with me and we go behind the bushes. Great.

[00:25:36]>> You have zero consequences on your end.

[00:25:38]>> I had a fantastic uh diance with a beautiful woman and she lied to me.

[00:25:43]Woohoo. But if it goes the other way, uh you're going to get pregnant whether I lied to you or not. So the costs are always going to be So to your point, you're exactly right that you would expect women to be really well calibrated. But of course, there's the promise. What if I'm reading the signals wrongs? What if he really is the great hero? By the way, in Roma, if you want to study the evolved sexual preferences of women, you know what is the product that you have to study?

[00:26:13]No, >> romance novels.

[00:26:16]>> Oh, right. As a matter of fact, >> it's women's porn.

[00:26:19]>> It's women's porn. I mean, literally, right? And so, if you look around the world, in every society where romance novels exist, >> it's always the exact same male protagonist. It It literally is as though it were plagiarized from one book to another. Can you can you list all his?

[00:26:37]>> I was like, "Okay, he's tall.

[00:26:38]>> He's tall.

[00:26:39]>> He's musly." to my great chagrant.

[00:26:41]>> He's musly.

[00:26:42]>> He's muscular.

[00:26:43]>> Um, very chiseled jaw.

[00:26:45]>> Yes. So, those are all physical. What about other behavioral traits?

[00:26:48]>> Oh, he's kind, but he's very dominant.

[00:26:50]>> He's only kind with the one woman who's trying to rein him in. But with the outside world, he's a ferocious tiger who who wrestles alligators on a six-pack, right? But he could only be he could only be tamed by and he >> only be tamed by one woman.

[00:27:06]>> By one woman. Who is that woman? So that woman is the one who is seeing those red flags, but she goes, "I could change him. I could tame him.

[00:27:15]>> I I think I've got a shot here." And so I think one of the reasons why you don't pay attention to those red flags is because you come in with this overestimation of your ability to tame that guy.

[00:27:26]>> Wow. So we think so highly of ourselves that we can tame someone because from an evolution standpoint, which I geek out on so much. I love it.

[00:27:34]>> Um I would think it would be the opposite. It's like, look, as a woman, you're way better off thinking that he's dangerous and running than giving him a second, third, fourth, and fifth chance.

[00:27:43]>> That's right. Uh well, you you just proposed a a great uh research study.

[00:27:49]>> I would expect that the ability of women to be well calibrated in reading these traits varies in terms of individual differences. Some women are going to be very good at picking up those traits.

[00:28:01]Other women are less. So I could already predict one variable that can tell us which of the type of women you'd be. Can you >> Oh, I don't know.

[00:28:12]>> So I'm Can I propose it?

[00:28:14]>> Please.

[00:28:15]>> So both men and women have a bundle of attributes that say on a scale of 0 to 100, I could score you on that trade in the mating market, right? So for example, I may not be tall, but I compensate for that with other traits.

[00:28:31]So that my net score might be whatever it is, right?

[00:28:34]>> I suspect that women who have an intrinsically high mate value are much less likely to be duped by those Mcavelian traits.

[00:28:46]>> Say more, >> right? Well, because I know that as a high high value woman that they could the next high status man could be coming down the turnpike. So, I don't need to take any risks. If my gut tells me this guy seems to be manipulative and machavelian, I'll listen to it. Whereas, if my mate value might be lower, this might be my only chance to be with the neurosurgeon who's 6 feet tall, who is charming, and who is gorgeous and has a chis. So maybe I'm I'm seeing the red flag, but maybe I'll shut it down because maybe I'll tame him.

[00:29:21]>> So I suspect that one's mate value will predict the likelihood of you succumbing to those traits or not.

[00:29:28]>> Mhm. I assume it would be the same for the male. The higher mate value he has, the more, in fact, maybe this isn't obvious. Is it the more likely he's going to cheat?

[00:29:39]>> Uh, all things said, yes. Because that speaks earlier to the fact that the the thing that stops men from having a lot of sex is this one thing called women.

[00:29:49]Because women serve as the doors stop.

[00:29:52]So once I have high status as a man, that's what unlocks the potential of having access to many women. The unemployed janitor and the neurosurgeon have the exact same desires. But one of them can get access to the women, the other one can't.

[00:30:08]>> That makes complete sense. really what women want. By the way, as someone who studies this, women want a guy who's very socially dominant, but that doesn't mean that he is, you know, beating people with a thing. So, it it's knowing when to trigger which quality. So, you should be empathetic to a point, hence my next book, suicidal empathy. But you should be kind and empathetic while also being socially dominant and brash when you need to be and violent if necessary.

[00:30:42]Right? I mean, no woman wants a guy who says under no circumstances I follow the following deontological rule.

[00:30:50]Deontological means it's an absolute truth. It is never okay to be violent would be a deontological rule. But clearly that's a suboptimal rule because if somebody is attacking my daughter in the alleyway to rape her, >> you better be bloody violent.

[00:31:05]>> I better be bloody violent, which by the way is something that I often face when people see me interacting with someone on social media. It could be an egg, someone who that I don't even know who they are, but I can be very spicy and then they see me in other context, they go, "Oh, you're so proper and professorial." I say, "Yes, it's called sit the situation, right? I can be brutally violent if you try to rape me in an alley, but I could tuck my children to bed with all of the kindness and sweetness when I'm dealing with my children. It nothing has changed in my disposition. Different situations require different responses.

[00:31:42]>> That's so true. So, here's the complexity though of that. A lot of us women, speak for myself, are attracted to the dominant powerful. It's when they spill over into then abusing you and not using that dominance and power to protect you.

[00:31:56]>> Exactly. Right. And by the And that's literally the archetype of the romance novel hero. He is very violent and brash and dominant with the outside world. But then when he turns to me, only my beautiful love can re him in and turn him from the tiger that he is to the outside world to the soft kitten with me. Although there are intimate moments where we also want the tiger in the bedroom.

[00:32:23]>> Yeah, you do. We do.

[00:32:24]>> You do. Um, did you you may not have read it, but I assume you've heard of it. The book uh Fifty Shades of Gray.

[00:32:30]>> I know what it's about. I've never read it.

[00:32:32]>> Okay. It's one of those books where it literally is porn for women. So, I start reading it and the character is very brash. The character is pure narcissist, very wealthy, very powerful. And yet, you do fall for him. And you see him in the book. He treats this one woman, even though he kind of makes her do like these sexual things, but she kind of likes it. But as soon as you take that to imagine this was actually real, women would hate him, >> right?

[00:32:59]>> So, what is it about the fantasy versus the reality?

[00:33:02]>> Yeah. So, Megan Kelly, I was having a chat with her. I think it was on my show, not hers, and we were talking about our former dear leader, Justin Trudeau, where she is saying, "Which woman would ever want that on top of her?" And it speaks to exactly what you're saying that for many women actually they thought that he was very handsome and he had beautiful hair and he's tall and he's young. To me he exuded very effeminate traits. What do you think? By the way, you're >> um I I'd have to see a picture. I'm not even a picture. Do you have a picture of him?

[00:33:39]>> Let's have a look.

[00:33:41]>> Katy Perry.

[00:33:43]>> He's dating Katy Perry.

[00:33:44]>> Yes.

[00:33:44]>> Oh, he's dating.

[00:33:45]>> I actually joked. I said it's so wonderful that Come on.

[00:33:48]>> That there's >> Yeah, he can come on.

[00:33:49]>> Oh, yeah.

[00:33:51]>> Okay. Well, now I'm worried. What you're going to say?

[00:33:54]>> Too soft for me.

[00:33:55]>> There you go.

[00:33:56]>> I But here's the thing. I look at him and I go, I actually get why women like him.

[00:34:00]>> You do? Okay.

[00:34:00]>> I don't I like I like >> a bit more rough. Okay.

[00:34:04]>> Give me some stubble and some >> There you go. Uh >> thank you.

[00:34:09]>> But so she she she picked up exactly that there's an effeminite way about him. Uh but to your point, you were saying that we do want the guy who is a rough neck.

[00:34:20]>> So it's like it was the one of the biggest books of its time and so many women fell for the character. But the truth is if a lot of us women actually met him in real life, we would think he was >> like him.

[00:34:32]>> Yeah. What what were the traits that Cuz I didn't see. What were the traits that were unattractive? Is it that he's arrogant or >> Yes. Very arrogant. He makes her sign a contract before he even like shows him his like secret room. Like he's very controlling. He tells her to put balls inside her and hold them inside for like multiple hours. And the woman doesn't really want to do it, but he like does it in this really romantic way. So she's like, "Okay, I think I'll try them." And so controlling, obsessive, dominating.

[00:35:04]>> But I could tame him. I could change him.

[00:35:06]>> Oh, you're right.

[00:35:07]>> Right. So yes, those are traits that are very unattractive that serve him well to the outside world. And those parts when they're turned inward, I'll be able to change him. That's what makes me unique, as a matter of fact, because I could change those ugly traits in him.

[00:35:21]>> I am the chosen one.

[00:35:22]>> Right. And that's why people like the book. If he ended with never changing and kicked her to the curb, you're so right.

[00:35:28]>> There's no redemption.

[00:35:29]>> So it's more the outcome.

[00:35:30]>> Exactly. So, I have a brother who is probably 53, but he walks like he's 7'5.

[00:35:43]And in large part, it's because he's wearing very metaphorical heels on all of the money that he had made. Now, how did that materialize in his daily interactions? Well, so let me tell you this is this is probably early 90s. I suspect that many of the traits that he exhibited would be exactly like the Fifty Shades guy.

[00:36:05]>> Quite arrogant, quite brash, somewhat uh prickly. Uh we would go into a nightclub and he'd say, "Okay, God, we're about to play the game." I'm like, "Oh, I don't want to play this game." And he'd say, "Walk around. Take as much time as you need. Find me the most gorgeous woman in this club and as unattainable as possible."

[00:36:27]Okay. So I look around. What would make her uniquely unattailable unattainable other than that she's beautiful is if she's with a guy that looks quite intimidating.

[00:36:39]>> So she's with some guy who's bald with tattoos and they're slow dancing on the on the on the floor >> and I say, "Okay, I think maybe this one." And he goes, "Are you sure that's the one?" "Yes, that's the one." So then he waits sort of like the circling shark until that guy goes to the bathroom.

[00:36:59]>> Then he approaches her. Now when he approaches her, she's wearing high heels. So he's coming up to about here to her.

[00:37:06]>> Oh, okay.

[00:37:07]>> Right.

[00:37:07]>> He probably tells her about his Ferraris and so on cuz I I don't hear what he's saying. Right.

[00:37:13]>> He comes.

[00:37:14]>> Does he actually have Ferraris? Is he lying about >> Oh, no. No. He had many Ferraris. Okay.

[00:37:17]So, super freaking well. Okay. Got it.

[00:37:20]Uh, and he comes back to me after he's spoken to her and he'd say, "She'll call me tomorrow." I'd say, "Absolutely zero chance it's going to happen." He goes, "Okay, let's see." Next day, now this is early 90s, so it's with a uh >> like a tape recorder.

[00:37:37]>> I don't remember the name.

[00:37:38]>> Voice. No, but it's not electronic. It's like with a physical. You press it.

[00:37:44]>> Oh, the recorder when you rewind.

[00:37:45]>> Exactly. Yeah. So he says, "Gad, come."

[00:37:50]I said, "Oh, come on. No way." Plays it.

[00:37:54]Hi. Hi, David. It's Candy. I said, >> "He got her." So, to your point, he's obnoxious. Sorry, David. Uh, he's brash.

[00:38:04]Probably a bit arrogant, but guess what?

[00:38:06]That sound of that sweet Ferrari got to her. Maybe I'll be able to change him and turn him into a sweet guy.

[00:38:13]>> That's such a powerful story. Um, talk to me about the sneaky [ __ ] strategy.

[00:38:19]>> Wow.

[00:38:20]>> Did you see that one coming?

[00:38:21]>> I did not. Yeah. Uh, so sneaky [ __ ] is actually a term that comes from zoology in the 197. So the the actual scientific term is kleptogami.

[00:38:33]>> Oh wow.

[00:38:34]>> But colloially it became known even within the scientific literature as sneaky [ __ ] So example of that in the animal kingdom. So you may have a male fish that comes in two phenotypes. Two phenotypes means two types of physical manifestations. There is the classic dominant male >> and there is another male phenotype that evolves to mimic a female, but he's male. Now what happens is this dominant male is standing there feverishly guarding his his ladies.

[00:39:11]>> And now here comes the sneaky [ __ ] And then this guy goes, "Oh, you're just a girl. Get in." And then what happens?

[00:39:18]Surreptitiously, he has access for some sneaky effing. Right? So, I took that principle and in one of my previous books, The Parasitic Mind, I argued that male social justice warriors or male feminists are manifesting the sneaky [ __ ] strategy. Look, I wear a fool. I cry when I fill up the gas. I'm a very sweet guy. hopefully you're not going to be intimidated by me because I'm just so damn empathetic and that hopefully gets me into your protective cloak. And so I use that principle from the animal kingdom to explain some of the snaky [ __ ] behavior in the human case.

[00:39:59]>> Yeah. When I heard your analogy a I just freaking love that name. Um and then I thought about how these become little manipulation tactics. Like there's this new common phrase these days. I don't know if you heard it called the soft boy strategy where it's it's the new version of the grandiose narcissist. So, it's the person that plays a role that says, "I'm going to show you that I'm into therapy. I read the books. You can trust me." And what happens is if you're a woman who's been manipulated and abused before, you're like, "This is the opposite of what I know. So, he must be safe." Therefore, you give yourself over, you drop your guard, and the soft boy strategy ends up working that then now they've hooked you. So here I am feigning that I have a psychic injury and therefore I'm going to therapy.

[00:40:44]Look, I'm a wounded bird. Right.

[00:40:46]>> So serial killers literally use a similar strategy with a cast.

[00:40:54]>> Oh yes.

[00:40:54]>> Or a sling. Actually that's in my >> Bundy did it.

[00:40:57]>> Exactly. Right. So I in in suicidal empathy I actually reference that. So I reference the Ted Bundy case and I also reference a fictitious case but that's based in reality that's in Silence of the Lambs.

[00:41:10]>> Yes.

[00:41:10]>> Uh >> with the with the sofa.

[00:41:12]>> The sofa. Right. So he can't Could you please help me? And if you remember to our earlier point, she pauses.

[00:41:19]>> Yes.

[00:41:19]>> And her her red flag is going up, but then she brings it down. No. No. Could you go in first? Remember he says to her, "You go in."

[00:41:29]>> Yes. And I'll I'll be able to lift it.

[00:41:30]I'll be able to lift it. So, all of the red flags were there, but because you probably didn't want to offend him because he looks like he is incapacitated, I use that empathy ruse to my advantage.

[00:41:43]>> That's so powerful. I learned about Ted Bundy. I had to massive I still have a massive fascination with crime. And so when I was in my teenage years, I read all the books on Ted Bundy, the Green River Killer, and I just like would go into their strategies. Like even to the point where Ted Bundy would work on the in the call center. Yeah.

[00:42:01]>> When people were worried about Ted Bundy coming after them, he would answer the phone. Like that's so sick. And seeing the strategies, um, I just kind of absorbed. And >> it was maybe 10 years ago. I was in a gas station in Virginia. So Tom was working. and I dropped him off somewhere and I just had time to kill and needed gas. So, there's like one gas station in the middle of nowhere. I pull up, put in the gas in, go into the store. As I'm coming out, there's one other guy there and he's like, "Excuse me, excuse me, miss. Miss, can do you mind helping me?"

[00:42:32]I was like, "No, what's the problem?" He goes, "Do you mind getting in the car and starting the engine?"

[00:42:36]>> [ __ ] that [ __ ] Dad. I literally I just ran.

[00:42:40]>> Wow.

[00:42:40]>> Now, look, the I keep joking that the poor man may have just been like this innocent man and this woman's just running. not worth the risk. So when I think about the empathy that we women have, going actually back to something you'd said before about birds of a feather flock together or what's the other one? Opposite >> opposites attract.

[00:42:58]>> When you're first meeting, there are a lot of extremely beautifully empathetic women that fall for your grandio narcissist. Is that the opposites attract moment?

[00:43:08]>> Yeah, exactly right. And and and again there is that promise of the future trajectory that any of those traits that I currently find objectionable I will be able to alter in him. Right?

[00:43:22]>> And so again I'm succumbing to the fundamental attribution error. This is not really part of his disposition.

[00:43:27]Maybe it's part of a situational thing.

[00:43:29]I can change him.

[00:43:30]>> And so >> uh once you remove that uh promise of a future trajectory and you listen to the red flag, run the other way. Yeah, >> by the way, there's a lot of gamesmanship in in courting, right?

[00:43:43]Should I call him first? Should I should he call me first? How many days should I wait before it happened? And so >> for all of your community of women, look for that authenticity.

[00:43:54]>> And I love that. I think the problem comes where you think they're being authentic. They say all the things and so you believe them and then you realize unfortunately usually after either 90 days or you know maybe even longer 3 years you start to see the true them.

[00:44:09]Once you start to see the true them you've almost already fallen for them.

[00:44:12]So it's much harder to get out of that web. Do you think that most of the women are willfully shutting off those signals even though they see them or do you think that the guys are so good in their lies that actually it's invisible to them?

[00:44:28]>> So good. I think I would be naive to say it was only the men. It a thousand% is us shutting things off, you know. I think so too.

[00:44:35]>> And I don't think that we do it deliberately. I think it may come from childhood, our abandonment issues. So that's why I do a lot of interviews also on like attachment styles and figuring out how you show up in a relationship.

[00:44:47]Um it just is sometimes somewhat easier at least for me and I can only speak for myself to say he was an [ __ ] then Lisa. You had 30 chances to leave and you did. You walked out.

[00:44:59]You slammed the door. You slammed the phone >> and yet you still went back.

[00:45:03]>> When I was insecure it was easier for me to say that than to take the ownership.

[00:45:08]But my life didn't truly change until I took the ownership and then started to spot the red flags. But even as an adult now, I have been manipulated, let's just say, in friendships.

[00:45:19]>> Yes, >> certain people, they get to know you, they understand what you want, what you need, and then they use that as the carrot, if you will. And part of the carrot that kind of going back to the Epstein stuff that I'm hearing is they would use women's ambition as the law.

[00:45:35]So with Virginia Duy, she said she wanted to be a masseuse. So they were like, "Oh, come on the private plane."

[00:45:40]Like you you can give a massage to >> Bill Clinton.

[00:45:42]>> Bill Clinton. So now as a young teenager where you're like, "My dream is to be a masseuse. If I tell people that I massage Bill Clinton, I can get any client I want." Same with um Les Wexler.

[00:45:54]Um he would also use that for supposedly again allegedly right now use that for models in order like he would lure Victoria Secret over them like oh come in be a model for me. So when someone starts to identify that draw is are people more susceptible because they're younger coming up.

[00:46:15]>> The argument there would be that the reason why evolution has not selected out any psychopathic tendencies in any human being is because there >> All right, ladies. Can we just have a real conversation about aging for a second? Because here's the actual truth.

[00:46:32]Aging is actually a gift because you got two choices, right? So, it means that you're still here, you're still growing, you're still kicking, and you're still becoming that person that you really want to be. But just because we want to embrace aging, it doesn't mean that we actually want to stop caring for ourselves. In fact, it's the absolute opposite. And that's why I absolutely love and use One Skin every single day.

[00:46:56]And listen, this isn't just another skincare brand with cute packaging and empty promises. This is actually real science. Their team are longevity scientists who developed their OS1 peptides, which actually helps target those damaged zombie cells that literally age your skin. So right now you can get 15% off on code lisa at onskin.co/lisa.

[00:47:20]That's 15% off at onskin.co/lisa with coupon code Lisa. And ladies, after you've purchased, make sure that you tell them who sent you. When someone starts to identify that draw is are people more susceptible because they're younger >> when you mentioned earlier I took ownership and that's what allowed me to no longer be insecure and so on. So let me reframe it in in psychological context.

[00:47:48]>> There is a related but different uh very powerful bias in psychology called the self-serving bias. The self-serving bias, and I'm going to link it to what you said about ownership. The self-serving bias is how do we attribute causality to our successes and failures in life? And most people attribute successes internally and failures externally. Right? So, I did really well on the exam. Well, because I studied hard and I'm a smart person.

[00:48:18]>> I did very poorly on the exam because Professor SAD is an unfair [ __ ] Right? So the problem with that though is that often times you're misattributing failures to external causes rather than to internal ones and therefore you don't learn from your experiences. So when you're saying I took ownership. So let's suppose you had had four relationships prior to Tom all of which had failed. And if in each of those cases you said to yourself, it's because of >> the guy, >> therefore, you could never learn from those experiences because you were home free. It was never because you fell for it because you didn't see the patterns and therefore you're very like, by the way, >> that's what good therapy would do exactly what I just said, which is there is an independent third party who listens to your patterns and says, "Hey, did you not see these things?" And but you're blind to them because you're succumbing to all these biases. And by the way, the ancient Greeks and I mentioned this earlier to my daughter.

[00:49:23]We were we went for a walk this morning.

[00:49:25]The ancient probably the most famous delic maxim from the ancient Greeks is know thyself. Right? Two words, right?

[00:49:33]It's very simple, but it has stood the test of time because you can't grow if you don't turn it inwards and say, "When I did this, that's because of me versus then because of him." And so, >> it's almost like this self-fulfilling prophecy like you can't always get out of it until you go, "Hang on a minute.

[00:49:50]If I actually want things to change, I've done this 10 times." Definition of sanity is doing the same thing over and over um and expecting a different result. So that was when I was like, look, what do you want in life, Lisa?

[00:50:03]You just spent eight years having a life that you didn't ever dream of, that you never wanted, that you never asked for, and yet you're still here. So what are you going to do differently? Eight years I'm not doing anything. Um, so >> what do do you think, if I may flip and be the host here, how were you able to turn that lens inward to then be able to do the autocorrections? I think it was over time because I'd spent eight years serving my husband, cooking, cleaning for him, thinking being taught as a Greek, good Greek woman does, be an amazing wife. If you're an amazing wife, then everything is going to come to you like God will be happy. So I just went in prioritizing is my husband happy, is my husband happy, is my husband happy.

[00:50:43]And after eight years, he wasn't. I don't mind sacrificing, but sacrificing to something where he's not even happy.

[00:50:50]So that was the moment I said, "Baby, I love you, but now you're damaging our marriage." And that turned into the idea of Quest Nutrition. With Quest Nutrition, he then turned to me as a wife saying, "Baby, do you mind helping?" As a good Greek wife, I was like, "Of course I will help." We grew at 57,000%.

[00:51:06]So I was like shipping bars for my living room floor one day to literally having a massive team, shipping out millions of dollars of inventory. It went so quickly that after maybe six months of just going on that path, I looked back and I was like, I did this.

[00:51:23]But I did this because I spoke up.

[00:51:25]>> Yeah.

[00:51:25]>> I spoke up because I was unhappy. Oh. So when you're unhappy, you speak up, then you make a change, then you learn, you grow. And so that became kind of a pattern. Amazing. So amazing story.

[00:51:37]>> But that shift had to come because I had to speak up. Um, so now there's one thing I'd love to talk to you about.

[00:51:44]>> Anything.

[00:51:45]>> I don't know if you've heard recently this new thing in the the society called Alpine divorce.

[00:51:51]>> No.

[00:51:52]>> So Alpine divorce has become this new entrapment CD tactic that unfortunately men are doing to women. So what a lot of people are doing is they're going on dates or maybe even taking their wives and they're like, "Let's go for a hike."

[00:52:07]They take him on a hike and they leave him at the peak and that's their way of splitting up with them and >> so it's a form of ghosting but through a hike.

[00:52:18]>> Correct.

[00:52:19]>> Okay.

[00:52:19]>> Or in the most horrendous circumstances.

[00:52:22]So not only are you heartbroken, you now have to find your way home. You don't have a car. Like they would literally freaking take off. And it was it got so bad that one point I can't remember where it was. Maybe it was in Sweden somewhere where a guy left his wife at the top of the the peak and she died.

[00:52:40]And so more and more women now are coming out saying, "Oh my god, this happened to me. This happened to me.

[00:52:44]This happened to me." And I actually have one um one comment from my community just to give you an idea of what people are doing.

[00:52:51]>> So this woman wrote, "I was abandoned on an island by a guy once. Went to take a nap. Woke up and he was gone. He was my ride to the airport on the mainland 2 and we were hundreds of miles away from our home. So this has become such a thing now and my mind just goes >> is it though?

[00:53:08]>> Yes. Well, I mean it's it's so much so that it's got a title. People literally call it alpine divorce.

[00:53:14]>> So alpine because it's it's it's alluding to the fact that you're dropping them in the mountain.

[00:53:18]>> I guess so. It started on the a mountain. So now women are like >> they started on hikes and now more people are saying actually it doesn't just happen on the hikes, it happens elsewhere. I'm trying to understand why why on earth would a guy take a woman all the way to a top of a freaking like evolution? Why would that serve him? Why would they do something so cool?

[00:53:38]>> Well, I mean, I I don't think there's an evolutionary argument because it's it's not an adaptive behavior. I think it's probably uh the final middle finger to to the person that you're dropping off.

[00:53:51]But not not that it's justifying it, but but I I have a hard time imagining that maybe that's a research topic. Uh so it could either be two things. Either these guys are truly psychopathic and as they are driving away, they are laughing at the pain that they're the final pain dish out to this woman. Or it could be either or. I I can't I don't know which one it is that they are so fed up of this woman that that's my final act of liberation. I I want to see you struggling in that final act of leaving you. So I I don't know. But what do you think?

[00:54:27]>> Um it's in the top of the man so no one can hear you if you want to cry and tell them that he's an [ __ ] >> Okay.

[00:54:33]>> Um no self-service so you can't quickly call your friend and [ __ ] about him. Um and >> but you can an hour later when >> Yeah. Oh, I get it. I I am not I'm not saying this makes sense. I'm just like maybe. Um and then you don't have to deal with the aftermath. literally just walk away and it's just such a horrendous strategy.

[00:54:52]>> Wow.

[00:54:53]>> That it it it does sound uh >> callous.

[00:54:56]>> Yes.

[00:54:57]>> Right. I mean there's I mean why don't you just say you know what it's not working out. Give me a hug and best of luck to you.

[00:55:02]>> Um so you mentioned psychopathy. So I've done a lot of work recently on dark triads.

[00:55:07]>> Yes. if you don't mind explaining what dark triad is and then is it something we're hearing now because it's becoming more common or is it just we're understanding the different types of characters?

[00:55:18]>> I think it's probably the latter. Uh so it's narcissism, psychopathy, what's the third one?

[00:55:24]>> Machavelianism >> and they're actually saying it really should be a dark tetrad because really you need to add fadism.

[00:55:31]>> Oh right. Uh I would say though machavellianism is a slight misnomer from my perspective from an evolutionary perspective because not all forms of machvelianism are actually dark right so let me give you an example where it's hardly dark >> it turns out that salespeople and this kind of resonates with >> you explaining what Mchavelanism is >> so Mchavelianism it comes from Mavel the political philosopher who basically argued if I summarize it colloially very quickly it's not important whether a leader is truly honest. What matters is that the populace thinks he's honest and hence you're being machavelian. Okay? So typically it's even if it's not associated with the dark triads, it's associated with negative intent. I'm manipulating you for nefarious purposes.

[00:56:20]But it need not be that. So for and so my point was going to be that >> if you take salespeople those who are very successful score much higher on a macavelian scale but that's not because they are sinister and dark.

[00:56:38]It's because think of what should a salesperson do if they're facing different types of consumers. Alter their selling point to fit each of those different consumers. So I notice that Lisa needs the following thing from the car and so I will adjust my sales pitch to cater to the uniqueness of Lisa and then I'm being Machavevelian in my intelligence and altering it with this person. It's not one selling point. So in not all situations is being Machavevelian a dark thing. So for example, Bill Clinton, we mentioned him earlier with the massage. He was reputed to be able once he speaks to you make you think that you are the absolute only person who exists in the world. So even though he's the president of the United States, there are 7,000 people vying for his attention, when he's locked in with you, he's giving you that. Now that itself could actually not be a sinister thing. He truly is locked in on you.

[00:57:42]Right now, that could be construed as Mcavelian, but it's not Machavevelian in the dark triad sense. So, >> to summarize, not all forms of Machavevelianism >> are dark and sinister. Okay? Right? As a matter of fact, there are some forms of machionism that are perfectly innocuous.

[00:58:03]Right? Remember earlier we talked about how I'm if I'm trying to manipulate you to see things my way. You're trying to detect if I'm being manipulative. Part of being Mcllian intelligent is to be able to navigate that dynamic. Well, that doesn't make you a psychopath. It it often times makes you somebody who's got social grace, who's got social skills. So, not all forms of machavelianism are, you know, Ted Bundy.

[00:58:31]>> Um, but what about psychopathy?

[00:58:32]Psychopathy is not a good one. Although there is although I have I'm not very familiar with that literature. There is I could think of one paper that I've looked at uh academic paper that looked at what are the evolutionary roots of why psychopaths exist.

[00:58:49]>> Why?

[00:58:50]>> So we have 10 fingers. That's called a fixed trait. Meaning that if you're born with less, fewer or more than 10 fingers, that's a congenital disorder.

[00:59:01]Right? That's why when your child is born, the first thing that the nurse will do is count how many toes and fingers you have. So that's a fixed trait. Meaning that it's not some people have six. Some people have 12. Right >> now, personality is not a fixed trait.

[00:59:18]Right? As a matter of fact, the number one thing that varies across all people are their personality profiles. Yes. So then the question becomes what is the evolutionary reason why evolution has not fixed on one optimal personality profile?

[00:59:37]>> Never thought about that.

[00:59:38]>> That's why I'm gats and you know why?

[00:59:41]>> And that's why you're here.

[00:59:42]>> That's why I'm here. And you know you know what the answer is? It's actually once you say it, you're like, "Oh, that makes so much sense."

[00:59:48]>> Um cuz I'm going to take a stab at it.

[00:59:51]Thinking about evolution. If you lived in a village, you wouldn't all want exactly the same traits. Otherwise, you'd all collide. You would want each other to have different types of characteristics and traits so that unitedly you become whole.

[01:00:05]>> Beautiful explanation. And I'll just add a bit to it. So, you're you're a budding evolutionary psychologist.

[01:00:10]>> Thank you. I love this so much. uh different ecosystems, cultural and social ecosystems >> necessitate a different optimal personality profile. Yes.

[01:00:24]>> So let me demonstrate this in the context of work.

[01:00:28]>> When companies usually give you a personality psychometric scale to to fill out, they're not testing whether you're optimal on extraversion or optimal. Rather, they're checking whether your personality profile matches the organizational culture, a form of assortative mating, so to speak. Birds are right. If I do it with Google versus JP Morgan, I might be ideally suited to flourish with Google, but not with JP Morgan, even though my personality didn't change. So the argument for why there is heterogeneity of personality types is precisely that. Therefore there isn't a singular optimal personality profile that leads across all ecosystems which >> goes with what you said also. So I think psychopathy >> even though it's very I think it's less than 1% of people are psychopathic if I'm not mistaken. So the argument there would be that the reason why evolution has not selected out any psychopathic tendencies in any human being is because there are ecosystems where it would pay to be psychopathic.

[01:01:45]>> Oh, what ecosystems would pay to be psychopathic? Maybe it's just evolution.

[01:01:49]I could understand back in the day, let's say there's 150 of you. I actually would like someone who doesn't give a [ __ ] to just go out and kill whoever just to protect us. But that would be just to protect us, >> right?

[01:01:58]>> Psychopaths don't really care about protecting you. So why would psychopathy >> Did you Did you ever see the movie? And I'm I'm brainstorming here, so do you remember the movie Glengary, Glenn Ross?

[01:02:10]Have you seen it?

[01:02:11]>> Oh, no. I don't think I have. Tom told me about it a lot.

[01:02:14]>> Okay. It's fantastic. It's Al Puccini.

[01:02:17]It's Jack Lemon. It's Kevin Spacy. It's Alec Baldwin. And what you're seeing is this high pressure sales context where the psychopathic boss is saying, "I don't care what you do, you better meet those sales numbers." Now, I happen to be someone who is pathologically and maladaptively honest. And as a matter of fact, my one of the maybe the most uh incredible things that my mother ever told me, maybe I was in my early 20s.

[01:02:51]She said, "You know, God, the quicker you learn that the world doesn't abide to your purity bubble, the happier you'll be and the better it'll be for you." Because I operate in this rarified world where I think everybody is going to beat meet my standards of >> Oh, yes. Yes. And so my feeling so to answer your question in a high pressure sales situation where there are no deontological concerns of being honest.

[01:03:19]It's a consequentialist thing. Do whatever you need to do as long as the consequences are you get the people to sign the thing. And in the movie, by the way, you see this one guy who is feeling great angst because as he's speaking on the phone trying to sell some plot of land to somebody that's a complete scam, he's he's hearing the moral conscious in his voice. Should I do this or not?

[01:03:42]Well, the psychopath says, "Who cares?

[01:03:45]If they're suckers enough to buy that thing, that's their problem. Do it."

[01:03:49]>> Um, I don't know if you've heard the it wasn't really a I don't think it was an official study. It was kind of like this post that went viral and everyone was responding. It was man versus bear. Have you heard this?

[01:04:00]>> No.

[01:04:00]>> Okay. So, they did this video or study or announcement where they said asked people if you were in the woods, what would you rather encounter, a strange man or a bear?

[01:04:13]>> Oh, and what now? They asked this to men and women.

[01:04:16]>> Yes. I'm going to pull up the stat if you had to guess.

[01:04:19]>> Okay. Let me let me guess. Uh, women would rather meet a bear rather than a man because there's the extra threat of rape.

[01:04:28]>> Bingo.

[01:04:28]>> Bingo. And men less so.

[01:04:31]>> Yes. So, seven out of eight women chose the bear and only 15% of men did. You're just so good.

[01:04:37]>> Isn't that that's the power, by the way, of having an evolutionary lens to explain the world, right? cuz right away I I can say why should we expect the sex difference here and what would be the evolutionary reasons and right away I conversed.

[01:04:54]>> You're so good. I love that we just did that because I told Tom, right? And he was like, "You chose the bear." I was like, "You're surprised by that?" Cuz of course most men get surprised by us women choosing the bear. And it goes back to look, the man could rape you, hold you captive for years and years.

[01:05:15]We've heard cases where people have done that. And the bear is just going to basically play with you and eat you.

[01:05:20]Like, okay, cool. At least I'm dead.

[01:05:21]That's right.

[01:05:22]>> Um, so what what is it then that we women fear so much? The strange man.

[01:05:29]>> Well, you're losing your ability in in determining your genetic trajectory of who's going to father your children. By the way, there is there are studies and I hope I don't get these wrong. I think it's Todd Shackleford who's a great evolutionary psychologist. I think he did a study where he summarized do you know that the conception rate of a rape is higher statistically higher than the naturally occurring conception rate. Do you follow what I'm saying?

[01:06:00]>> There's no way that's true.

[01:06:01]>> It is.

[01:06:03]>> And actually, we could check it after if you'd like. And even if it weren't true, it speaks to something that people hate about evolutionary theory. And let me explain. So, there are two uh evolutionary uh scientists who wrote a book in the early 2000s.

[01:06:20]Uh I think it was Craig Palmer and uh Randy Thornnehill. Well, they wrote a book explaining the adaptive reasons for why rape evolved. Now, you could imagine how much flak they got.

[01:06:37]>> Because to my earlier point, remember when I said earlier that a lot of people hate evolutionary psychology because if you explained why child abuse happens or why domestic violence happens, people conflate that as meaning that you're trying to justify it, >> right? Excuse it.

[01:06:51]>> Excuse it. So imagine now here comes these two men who are saying, "Look, there are adaptive reasons why men rape women." In no way were they justifying it, but they're saying that within the full panel of mating strategies that men can assume, one of those within that repertoire is the rape strategy. And by the way, do you know Robin Baker's sperm wars theory?

[01:07:19]>> No.

[01:07:20]>> Okay. So, so usually when I lecture about evolutionary psychology and if there are say feminists in the crowd, depending on which evolutionary phenomenon I explain, I go from being a hero to a zero very quickly.

[01:07:36]>> Uhhuh. Depending on which one you say, >> right?

[01:07:38]>> Even though both theories are exactly correct, but if it fits with your ideology, I become a hero or I become Hitler. So example, if I say men have evolved a greater penchient for sexual variety, boo. I'm Hitler. Right?

[01:07:57]>> Okay. Even >> that actually makes that makes sense.

[01:07:59]>> That makes sense. If I then say, but hold on a second. As a matter of fact though, there are very clear evolutionary reasons why women are hardly the Victorian chased cruds that we typically make about to be. They've actually also evolved for sexual variety. Yes, Professor Sad, you're such a hero. You're a male feminist, professor. Right now, let me give you some examples of that research.

[01:08:24]>> Women are much more likely to cheat on their long-term partner when they are ovulating.

[01:08:29]>> Question.

[01:08:30]>> Yes.

[01:08:30]>> If they're ovulating, they're going to cheat. Would they cheat more likely on someone with better genetics?

[01:08:37]>> Exactly right. Oh, >> so usually you don't usually you lock down Bill Gates at home, right?

[01:08:46]>> The person that can provide financially, >> right? But he's a genetic mutant. Sorry, Bill. Uh, right. He's borderline hourglass figure for a man, right? But the male gardener who's got the body of a male Olympic swimmer, I'm going to go with him and I'm going to get the sucker at home to think that it is his. Now, the fact that he turned out to look exactly like the sexy male gardener, it was just accidental. It must have happened through osmosis. Right. Right.

[01:09:15]Okay. So, number one, I I cheat when I'm ovulating. I'm less likely to insist on contraception when I cheat. That makes no sense. That doesn't make sense.

[01:09:28]>> No, it does make sense when I am shopping for good jeans.

[01:09:33]>> But doesn't Okay, dude. That's fascinating. Wouldn't your brain though in today's society go look >> don't be really >> No, I'll tell you why. Because your brain is a vestage of a set of evolutionary adaptations that were relevant in the ancestral time. The fact that you now have birth control pills doesn't mean that our brains have suddenly rewired. Right. We do have DNA paternity testing. Yet, that hasn't stopped men from being pathologically jealous.

[01:10:05]>> True.

[01:10:05]>> Right. So, that's not how it it would work. Okay.

[01:10:08]>> Okay. So, I cheat more when I'm ovulating. I'm less likely to use contraception uh when I cheat. I'm much more likely to go to with the Olympic male swimmer. Now, here's where the Robin Baker stuff comes in. Mhm.

[01:10:21]>> So his book sperm wars he basically argues that there are three types of phenotypes of spermatzoa. There is the type that you typically think of which is sort of the the swimmer.

[01:10:35]>> So 250 million spermatzoa are looking for the proverbial egg. But he goes that there are two other types of phenotypes within a man's ejaculate. There is uh what are called blocker spermatzoa. They don't care about looking for the egg, but they try to block the reproductive track entrance from other men's sperm.

[01:10:59]And then there are third type called killers that go in and look to kill other men's sperm. So let's summarize what that means. To the extent that spermatzoa is only viable in a woman's tract for 72 hours, that means that your female ancestors and mine would have had a very high likelihood of multiple partners within 72 hours. But now to link it back to rape, >> it need not be that the multiple partners were consensual. It could be that some of it were was forced. Oh, >> and one final piece of evidence for that, this is where the feminists come up to me and sort of hold me up as a hero because there that's showing that women can be also sexually unrestrained and that fits the feminist narrative that they're not prude, right?

[01:11:54]>> So, if you if you plot uh size of testicles across primates, you ready?

[01:12:03]>> Mhm.

[01:12:04]Uh, silverback gorillas. Do you know what how they look like?

[01:12:09]>> Massive.

[01:12:10]>> They're massive, right? They're so impressive. The the strength of 10 men combined. Stronger than a bear.

[01:12:17]>> Very small testicles.

[01:12:18]>> Oh.

[01:12:19]>> Now, why? because they have what's called polygenous mating strategy which is one male has monopolized sexual access to many females even though other men will try to sneak in once in a while and therefore because there isn't endemic sperm war competition the testes are very small. Now let's go to chimpanzees.

[01:12:45]Chimpanzees are walking testicles.

[01:12:49]Chimpanzees, their entire bodies are just to support these massive testes.

[01:12:54]Why? Because the sperm war competition in chimpanzeee society is outlandish. We say hello, we have sex. We fight, we have sex. We say good morning, we have sex. We we eat together, we have sex. So because of multiple mating opportunities for females, male chimpanzees have to evolve the weaponry against that. Now, of course, the next question to ask is where does Homo sapien Oh, yeah.

[01:13:21]>> Where do humans fit in on that scale?

[01:13:24]>> Do you want to take a guess? Are are we closer?

[01:13:26]>> I mean, would it be the same? So, a big tall musly man would have small testicles.

[01:13:31]>> So, we are >> shorter like your brother's got some >> big big balls. Uh, we are closer to the chimps.

[01:13:41]>> Oh, the chimps. Yeah, that would make sense. Then we are to the uh silverback >> which implies that our evolutionary ancestor females would have been somewhat promiscuous. So once you put all that data together, it suggests that yes, there are very clear evolutionary reasons for men to desire greater sexual variety than women, but that doesn't mean that women are sitting around knitting the thing in their prude chased world. Dude, that was fascinating. I love that sort of thing, by the way. I geek out so much. Um, so you mentioned when women are more likely to cheat.

[01:14:19]What about men? I heard that they're more likely to cheat once their partner gets pregnant or has a first baby.

[01:14:26]>> So, I I can't confirm if that finding is true. Well, I could tell you, by the way, which might go against what you just said, >> about to be fathers or recently >> Yes. fathers >> have a huge drop in testosterone.

[01:14:42]>> Oh, interesting.

[01:14:44]>> And the reason for that is so there are several evolutionary arguments but at any given moment there are several Darwinian drives that are shaping my trajectory.

[01:14:55]>> Okay. So I I need to survive. I need to have sex. I need to uh invest in kin.

[01:15:03]Well, there's a Seinfeld episode where there's this really geeky guy, George, who suddenly right? The short guy who decides he's he's no longer going to he's going to become a celibate guy >> and no no longer worry about sex. And by no longer worrying about sex, he suddenly becomes this unbelievable genius. He's solving open problems in mathematics. He's and Jerry says to him, "What the hell? When did you learn Portuguese?" He goes, "Jerry, I've completely freed up my brain. It 99% of my brain was focused on sex. Once I freed that, I can do other things. But now coming back to reality, when a man is pursuing a the Darwinian drive for mating, then he's focused on that. But now when you have a child, wouldn't it make evolutionary sense for nature to ensure that if you wish to now reorient your key focus from libidinal drives to investment in kin drives, how do I do that? I drop your testosterone because testosterone is the libidinal hormonal driver. Now, it could be that they cheat more when their wives are pregnant or just gave birth simply because the partner is not as into it.

[01:16:18]>> So, the sexual drive >> exactly. So, that might explain what you said, but generally speaking, expect a drop in testosterone level in your men when you just had a baby.

[01:16:28]>> Interesting. Okay. So, is there any time in a guy's life or stage or something that's happening where they actually have a higher testosterone and are more likely to cheat?

[01:16:36]>> Uh, it's a very good question. So, there's and there are many answers to this. Here's one kind of cool finding.

[01:16:42]>> It turns out that when your man's favorite sports team wins, get ready for some very white music that night.

[01:16:53]>> And the reason for that is, can you can you guess what it might be? Um, why would that be? Will you feel like you're a winner? And so as a winner, that feels like dominance. That feels like you're the alpha. You're sitting on the >> link. But link it to hormones.

[01:17:08]>> Um, >> if you're a winner, what happens to your hormones?

[01:17:11]>> Does your testosterone go up?

[01:17:13]>> Yes.

[01:17:13]>> Does it really when you're a winner?

[01:17:15]>> So, here's the thing. So, there are a lot of studies that have been done, and I' I've done some of them myself. Uh, there's a lot of studies that show that a win, it could be a competitive win.

[01:17:24]You and I play even chess, the winner, the testosterone goes up, the loser goes down. It's literally what you see in dogs. The tail goes between the legs or the tail goes up. Right? So, I did studies with one of my former graduate students where we brought people into the lab, >> but we we didn't tell them imagine driving a Porsche. We actually rented a Porsche and we got an beaten up old sedan and we made them drive both in downtown Montreal, which is on a weekend where everybody can see you driving the the loser car or the winner car or on a semi- deserted highway where there isn't an audience. And the dependent measure was a salivary assay >> which could we could then use to measure your fluctuating rates of testosterone.

[01:18:14]You actually take their saliva saliva.

[01:18:17]>> It's like how you do DNA. It's a salivary assay. And then we send it to a lab that analyzes uh the the tea levels.

[01:18:26]And probably it's not going to surprise anybody in this audience because we're all Darwinian beings when you put young men in a Porsche where testosterone blows up. So now let's link it back to what I said earlier. It turns out that sports fans watching their favorite team win or lose >> have a vicarious hormonal response that is akin to if they were playing.

[01:18:52]>> Oh, >> right. So when my team wins, my testosterone level goes up and and you you even see it linguistically.

[01:19:01]When my team wins, we won. When my team loses, they lost.

[01:19:07]>> They lost. Oh my god, that's so true.

[01:19:09]>> Okay. And therefore, so when my team wins, my testosterone level goes up. My libidinal drive goes up. It might be with my wife or it might be with the sexy sexy coworker.

[01:19:22]>> Mhm. My dad used to say this. My parents were divorced, but they got along very well. And so every time my dad would drop us off, if we were good, he's like, "My kids are here. Here you go. Bye, kids." And if we were bad, it's like, "Your kids were naughty." So it always used to make me laugh. Um what's interesting in that story about the sports analogy is I've also heard though that when um teams lose domestic violence goes up but that also I would think someone being violent would mean a spike in testosterone.

[01:19:50]>> Yeah. So but there it might that mechanism might not be working through testosterone. It might be working through my frustration. Right. I'm really pissed that my guy's lost today.

[01:20:00]Let's kick the hless puppy when I get home. which of course doesn't justify it or explain it, but I think that's what's happening there.

[01:20:08]>> Um, based on everything that we've been speaking about, by the way, I've had so much fun. I feel like I've completely gigged out with you. Um, >> you can be as controversial as you like.

[01:20:18]I don't mind. I just want the truth.

[01:20:20]What's one thing that you think we women keep missing and why we end up choosing men that aren't good for us?

[01:20:30]Certainly. I mean, from just even looking at uh Instagram reels, which I only recently discovered, and suddenly I'm I've turned into a 14-year-old.

[01:20:39]>> Uh you you you'll see those street uh interviewers that stop people, right?

[01:20:45]>> Uh and and this is not I'm not saying this because I'm not 6 feet tall and so on. I'm I'm happily married for 26 years, so it's not like I'm on the market. I think that often time we tend to be uh too focused on ephemeral traits that while clearly they have evolutionary value. Yes, it makes sense all other things equal. Women want to feel protected. So a bigger guy is better than a smaller guy. But I would say in those cases focus on social dominance, right? I mean, very few women are going to kick Lionel Messi out of their their bed, even though he's only about my height, because he does have very high social status. He is a warrior. And just to be fair to women, I think they focus on those superficial traits much more when they are younger than when they are older.

[01:21:36]Right.

[01:21:37]>> The bad boy, >> the bad boy, the tall guy, the the the rough guy. And but as I get older, I realize that those might not be the traits that will bring me stability and happiness. So what I would urge women to do is to remember that mate choice is a compensatory process meaning that we are truly choosing on a bundle of attributes and pick the guy who scores highest on the entire bundle rather than focus on one or two traits.

[01:22:06]>> Dr. Gad Sad, I have had so much funise.

[01:22:10]Thank you so much for coming on. You have so many books and you have one coming out. So, where can people find you, your new books coming out and all the amazing things you're doing?

[01:22:17]>> Thank you. Uh, so the the forthcoming book is suicidal empathy dying to be kind. It's what happens to our evolutionarily relevant empathy mechanism when it misfires when it becomes hyperactive when it is triggered in the wrong context in the wrong amounts to the wrong targets. And so I argue that many of the domestic and foreign policies that we're seeing in the West stem from suicidal empathy.

[01:22:42]That's coming out May 12th. They could pre-order it on Harper Collins or Amazon. You could find me on Gatsad G- A D S A D on on X. Uh I I host a show called The Sad Truth. S A A D. So it's very easy to find me. Thank you so much for having me on.

[01:22:59]>> Of course, guys. Guys, I am obsessed with evolution. I really do mean when I said it earlier that when you understand why you behave the way you do, it isn't about shame or guilt. It's about just understanding then being able to navigate how to make a move and change.

[01:23:13]So guys, I really hope today was just an eyeopener of why you do what you do, why maybe some guys you end up picking, do the things that they do, but it's in order for you to change your life. So guys, please, please do go follow like him. He's just amazing. His content is so good. You got to go check it out. If you're not subscribed, smash that subscribe button down there. And until next time, be the hero of your own life.

[01:23:33]Peace.

[01:23:35]>> Wow, >> that was so good.

[01:23:37]>> You're a firecracker.

[01:23:38]>> If you want to make sure that you never get manipulated by an unsuspecting, dangerous man in your life, then you definitely don't want to miss this extremely powerful discussion right here with the number one narcissist expert, Dr. Romany.

[01:23:51]>> I think the big mistake people have made is they always tag narcissism to