Breaking Up with Old Patterns: A Journey to Lasting Love with Amy Chan | No Room For Small Talk

Added: 2026-05-28

[00:00:00]So, when you are with someone you have these neural pathways that wire together and your brain is [music] a prediction making machine and so it expects that when you text you'll get a text back that in if you live together in the morning you'll see them and when there's a breakup and suddenly there's no contact you're not seeing that your brain is like what's going on? There's a prediction error [music] and so to correct that it's like okay, well, go make this thing happen. Go show up at their doorstep. Go text them. Go do all of these things to get that old prediction to keep going. Ask questions, make connections. I'm Liz Hernandez.

[00:00:36]Welcome to No Room for Small Talk.

[00:00:38]Collaborating with FYI allows us to call on AI personas in these conversations.

[00:00:43][music] So Fiera, let's play a round of No Room for Small Talk.

[00:00:49]>> [music] >> Category X. If you wrote a book about your last relationship, what would the title be?

[00:00:56]And who better to answer this question than Amy [music] Chan, the author of Unsingle: How to Date Smarter and Create Love That Lasts. She's also the founder of Breakup Bootcamp where she helps [music] people heal after heartbreak and recognize the patterns that keep them stuck in love. Dubbed the scientific Carrie Bradshaw, [music] she brings a thoughtful and research-driven perspective to dating >> [music] >> and relationships.

[00:01:24]Sorry.

[00:01:25]That's [laughter] okay.

[00:01:26]Okay, I got it.

[00:01:28]Um Chasing guys who liked me just a little but never enough. Mhm.

[00:01:36]Chasing guys who liked me a little but bare minimum.

[00:01:40]>> [laughter] [gasps] >> Aw. Thank god those days are over.

[00:01:46]>> [laughter] >> Uh you know, Amy, congratulations on your new book.

[00:01:50]>> Thank you.

[00:01:50]>> Yes, Unsingle: How to Date Smarter and Create Love That Lasts. So, the book suggests that dating success starts even before we meet the right person. Let's unpack that a little. So, a lot of people are like, "Okay, I want to just get matched. Like, who do you have to match me with?" And I'm like, "Before we get to the interior decorating of a house, we need to start at the foundation. The boring stuff, the plumbing." Which is like, "What are What's the past baggage that you might be bringing into your present and future relationships? What are some of the patterns that are blocking you from love?" And until we can kind of sort that out so that you have basic relational and communication skills, you're not really ready for the process of dating and meeting your match. Give us an example of what that might look like of someone who's still dating through their wound. Yeah, so a lot of people are dating and they're like, "I have dating fatigue. It doesn't work."

[00:02:48]And then, they're just double downing on the same strategy and getting the same results. So, an example would be someone who says they want love, they're ready for a family, and then they have all these superficial expectations of what they need in a partner. Things that really don't matter when it comes to love and connection and finding a team player. And they're very ego-driven. And they might say, "No, it's the city I live in. It's my age. It's just dating in general." Without recognizing that they're choosing the wrong people. So, someone who looks good on paper, but you're not necessarily looking at the qualities.

[00:03:24]>> Exactly. Or makes them feel validated because like, "Oh, I got this 6-ft tall person or this really hot person." And in a way, you're not trying to have a soul connection, you're trying to have an ego transaction.

[00:03:39]All right. So, you've said that the problem is that people often stay stuck in reoccurring relationship patterns.

[00:03:45]What do some of these patterns look like? Cuz we saw the wound of needing Maybe self-worth is the ego of like okay I need to be with someone super hot or at this caliber of success to feel good about myself. Yeah. But what are some of the patterns that you tend to see that keep people blocked from healthy relationships? Yeah, so one I see often with people who lean more avoided meaning intimacy scares them is they are waiting for the perfect person. They need 150% of signs saying they are the one. But the reality is that never happens and there's a point where you are dating someone, you get to know them enough, I think around the three-month mark where the person is good enough and the only way to make it great is to actually jump in with two feet and be in relationship versus hedging. And that's how you get a relationship from good to great. It's not just these fun, exciting dates and these highs, it is when you're in relationship and you have a fight and an old trigger is happening but you come back together and you work through it and that creates an emotionally corrective experience. Those are the things where a relationship gets great.

[00:05:04]How a person works through conflict.

[00:05:07]>> Yeah. Yeah, that that's huge. What are some of the signs that someone is repeating a pattern? Because a lot of times we don't realize it. You know, even myself, I thought I was doing the work to be super aware and a dear friend of mine who has a lot of expertise in the field of trauma said you're still searching through my safety wound. So for me I felt I needed to have a partner who I knew for years. I had to have some sort of history with that person because that made me feel safe.

[00:05:37]>> Right. Yeah. [clears throat] And it wasn't necessarily just seeing who was there. Yeah. And now I have the awareness so hopefully >> [laughter] >> I can let that go. But what What some other patterns that you tend to see in the dating world?

[00:05:48]What I'm seeing a lot right now is over-icking.

[00:05:52]So, I feel like with social media and everyone becoming an expert on red flags and they're narcissists and they're sociopaths, it's great where we're not tolerating bad behavior, but I feel like we've almost overcorrected and the algorithm is serving you up all of this content on why you should be hyper-vigilant and not trust. And what's happening is we are dismissing people before we even give them a chance. And these things that are really minor, I'll give you an example. I once icked a guy because on the second date he wore sandals. And I thought I was being so, you know, picky and I laughed about it with my friends and we're like, "Yeah, like oh my gosh." And I look back and I'm like, "How immature was I?" He was a good person. I'm sure he's happily married with children now. And I Like to one style choice.

[00:06:38]>> Yeah, and that meant nothing and that that was really reflective of how I wasn't ready for a relationship. I could say it, I could have the lip service, but my behavior was completely contradictory to the results I said I wanted.

[00:06:52]>> Mhm.

[00:06:53]It's interesting. It's almost like we're trying to curate this perfect partner because we're able to curate everything else in our life. We have so much available options to us now. Yeah, it's like Build-A-Bear. Like, I'll take this height, this love language, Gemini? No.

[00:07:09]Bleah? Okay. Like, it just doesn't work that way and we're almost in a way treating people like objects that will fulfill our desires and our plan and our timeline versus we are both imperfect human beings with wounds and bad fashion choices sometimes and that doesn't make them not a viable partner. Yeah. Oh, Amy, I know you have spent years helping people recover through breakups with Breakup Bootcamp. I had an opportunity to experience it myself.

[00:07:39]What patterns do you see there that prevent people from finding lasting love? Like you know, when the people are going through really difficult times, you you tend to go into the catastrophic feeling of I'm never going to find someone.

[00:07:57]>> Yeah. What is that belief system or that pattern that keeps us from actually seeing reality and seeing all the potential partners that could be a good fit? Yeah, so after a heartbreak, people tend to go into one of two camps. One is they either pedestal their ex and they hang on to this fantasy of like the one who got away, I'll never find someone like this. And it is a a convenient way to never get hurt again because if you're always pining for this person from the past or this soulmate that, you know, you'll hopefully one day meet in the future, it always keeps intimacy safely away. Then the other side of the spectrum are people who vilify their ex.

[00:08:40]And it's like I got cheated on once or twice, all men are pigs or all women are like this. And these generalizations come up where they decide that everyone must be like that because they had a few experiences. Mhm.

[00:08:54]>> Yeah. It's really interesting cuz I've learned that, you know, when people hold on to the belief that their soulmate got away. Right. And one of my dear friends, you know, he's taught me a soulmate doesn't leave, a soulmate stays. And that's will keep people stuck, like you said, putting their ex on a pedestal is as if they were this perfect person and they'll never find anything that will meet up to those criteria or standards. And then also vilifying, it's like the opposite of you don't end up learning what part you played in the relationship and its demise if you are staying the victim of what they did to you.

[00:09:33]>> Mhm. Exactly.

[00:09:35]>> Yeah, so I just think there's a lot of growth when we're willing to see our part in what happened in the relationship. As my dad says, takes two to tango.

[00:09:42]>> Yeah.

[00:09:43]>> [laughter] >> So, what is the difference between being picky and being emotionally unavailable?

[00:09:50]>> [snorts] >> Being picky is when you are looking at things that don't matter in a relationship. So, for example, shiny qualities. Uh we know through research if you're optimizing for things that height, status, if they like skiing, um education level. All of those things actually have zero ability to predict if a relationship will be happy or stable.

[00:10:18]Mhm. And the things that actually do matter are quiet qualities. Those are the things like um how well you handle conflict together, how committed your partner is to is how appreciated you feel, the things that show up on a random Tuesday when you're sick and they bring you soup without you having to ask. These are the things that don't make it on the grid or deserve an Instagram shout-out. They are those consistent things that show that someone is reliable and that they care. Yeah.

[00:10:46]And we are putting too much weight on the shiny qualities, things that will ultimately fade away, and not optimizing for the quiet qualities, the glue that will keep a relationship together when the dopamine fades. Mhm.

[00:11:00]>> [clears throat] >> And that's so important because, you know, you want to get you know, I think we're so quick to dismiss someone and you don't ever get to see like, oh, do they pay attention to the details? Do they care about the things that are important to me? And you're never going to see that again if you're attracted to just the Fast and Furious of what it looks like on the exterior. Exactly. And I think also people need to understand um and I learned this the hard way, someone who's really great at dating is not necessarily someone who's great at nurturing a relationship. They're two very different sets of skills.

[00:11:38]>> Break that down, Amy. So, someone who's great at dating could be someone who has a very sociopathic or narcissistic personality, right? They come in strong, they're charismatic, they say the right things, they zone in on you like you're the most special person in the world. And you're like, "Oh my gosh, amazing. I'm sold, I'm in." And then 2 3 months when they've got you, they're not contacting you or they start lying and these other things start happening or when there's a conflict, they totally can't handle it and then they turn around on you.

[00:12:09]>> Yeah, they're really living a double life. Yeah. So, those people though are so charming on a date, being great at relationship, that person might not have all the suave things to say. They might not exude confidence or know how to perform on a date.

[00:12:23]And so, looking for someone who has integrity, who is grounded, who is humble, those things don't shout out at you and they might not show up on dates one or two.

[00:12:36]Yeah. And I think I you know, I actually think that's so endearing because if a guy or or woman, whatever, is too slick, if they're just too much in character, to me that's also a little like you've done this before.

[00:12:47]>> Right.

[00:12:48]>> Yeah. We're wiser now.

[00:12:49]>> Yeah.

[00:12:50]>> [laughter] >> Do you think a lot of people are looking for chemistry, that spark, instead of actually looking for compatibility?

[00:12:59]A lot of people prioritize chemistry and I don't blame them. I think it's happening even more now.

[00:13:06]It's also what we're seeing, right?

[00:13:08]We're seeing highlight reels of people's happy relationships and we're like, "I want that. They're so in love. They're in the Amalfi Coast. Why don't I have that?" And I also think that a lot of people feel very numb these days.

[00:13:19]We are so zoned out on our scrolling, on these quick little snippets of stimulation that it actually is draining our dopamine systems. And so it's actually harder for us to feel excited about someone because when we're scrolling right before a date, it actually kind of it's almost like a lemon and you squeeze out all your dopamine and you're kind of like, "Ugh."

[00:13:41]So, we almost need someone to give us this jolt and then we feel alive.

[00:13:47]Uh and I think that is where we get into problems because that person who's giving you that jolt, that is not necessarily love, right? It could be an activated nervous system, it could be anxiety, it could be danger and we are thinking it's No, this must be soulmate material. Yeah. It's interesting to me that people haven't figured it out that when we see these so-called perfect relationships on social media that they're just humans like us. Right.

[00:14:17]>> there's no perfect relationship because there's no perfect person. And and you know, even looking back, I think about when you know, Instagram was first sort of taking off and me not really understanding the power of it yet and being one of those couples a long time ago. And yes, it was just a snapshot.

[00:14:37]>> Yeah. And you know, when you pull the curtain back, it's like there's chaos and there's problems just like everybody else.

[00:14:44]>> Yeah.

[00:14:45]>> Yeah. And I think it's, you know, if we could be more honest about that it's like with anything. It's like, you know, you see an image of someone and it's completely photoshopped and it's like, I can't relate to that and I feel worse about myself because there's no relatability.

[00:15:01]>> Yeah.

[00:15:01]>> And it's like the same with people in relationships.

[00:15:04]>> Yeah.

[00:15:05]>> Where's the relatability? Right. And the thing is like even if we go and be like, "No, I know this isn't reality." When you're you are bombarded by these messages over and over again, it just seeps into your psyche, right? We don't have to think about Chanel as luxury or Apple's innovation. Where did I get that message? I don't know, but you've been hammered with it. And so I think whether it was social media's the now, the new fairy tale, and we watched fairy tales like, oh, no, that's totally not realistic, but then we want our Prince Charming. The same thing is happening now. Yeah.

[00:15:38]Why do you think so many people chase potential instead of seeing what's actually there?

[00:15:46]I notice a certain profile of person who does that a lot, and they're typically people who are high-achieving and successful in their careers.

[00:15:55]Interesting.

[00:15:56]>> Yeah. What's the correlation there? So, what I've noticed is these people are so used to, you know, they have a startup, they have a business, or they're leading a team, something's broken. You find out five different ways to fix it. You keep going. You have a business, you you're growing a brand. You don't just say like, oh, that's too hard. Like, you're like, oh, yeah, I believe in this vision, I'll do anything to make it work. And we don't turn that off when it comes to our romantic relationships. And we're like, oh, no, like, I'll just work harder. Like, well, they had that thing that happened to them, you know, like, there's that past trauma. Like, I'll just have to put in two steps.

[00:16:32]>> We'll start going to therapy, yeah.

[00:16:34]>> Yeah, we'll do all the things to fix and be the glue. And if you have any history of people-pleasing or codependency, um, then it makes it very easy to fall in that trap. And you might not start off being like, yes, I'm just going to be the glue that holds it together. It happens very slowly. And it's just like, okay, each breach of boundary, each time I'm over-accommodating, it adds up. And you then have this uneven power dynamic.

[00:17:01]And it's very natural when someone's pulling away for us to go and want to chase it. Um, and then we don't recognize ourselves anymore. Right. And it also, I think, creates a lot of resentment, disappointment, because you're projecting a fantasy onto that person of I see you at your highest potential and that could be their highest potential is what you got.

[00:17:21]>> Yeah.

[00:17:21]>> And so and even I think about the opposite, you know, if that person is projecting their fantasy onto you and then they become super critical and again the resentment starts to build because they're trying to structure you into their ideal person when you know, the whole point of being with someone is to be accepted for who you are.

[00:17:42]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:17:44]Dating apps, let's get into it. They're supposed to make dating easier.

[00:17:47]>> [laughter] >> But most people like they're exhausted.

[00:17:51]I know. I mean so dating apps have changed the way we meet people which I think is great. We can meet someone who lives in New York like who lives outside of your zip code and that's really cool but it's changed the way that we think about people and we treat people and even if you're the nicest person, the swiping every single day making a snap judgment within a millisecond is causing us to treat people like objects.

[00:18:14]>> Yeah, they're disposable.

[00:18:15]>> Yeah, they're disposable. If you not this person then there's another and I think that mentality has seeped into how we date and how we treat people and also we can get away with things that in my parents age like you met through work or through friends. You couldn't just ghost. There's social consequences and now because of the anonymity of these apps like you could behave terribly and there's no one to hold you accountable.

[00:18:43]Wow.

[00:18:45]Yeah, you think about that cuz it's usually a friend of a a family friend.

[00:18:48]Yeah and so it's like oh man, did you hear what Joe did or did you hear what Sally did? Yeah. Yeah.

[00:18:54]Yeah. So how do we get how do we get back to a place where it doesn't feel so underwhelming? Mhm.

[00:19:03]>> [sighs] >> I think I always say this so in my book I talk about the dating funnel and the top of funnel is prospecting which is lead generation and I always tell my clients you should have three sources of lead generation. So if you're on the apps, fine, but find two other ones. And that might be, okay, every every week I'm going to have one thing where I invite a few friends and I ask them to invite a friend as well. Maybe it's a hike, maybe it's just something super simple or going to comedy show. And that will actually just increase my number of being able to meet other people. Another really helpful thing is signing up for something that you're interested in, whether it's a run club or a poetry thing, um something where you'll see the same group of people over a period of time. Because there's something called the mere exposure effect. It's a psychological phenomenon where the more we are exposed to someone, the more amplifies the base feeling. So a lot of the times you might meet someone, you might not know like, oh my gosh, there's something here, but you're like, oh I had fun, like great conversation. And your logical mind has not clocked there's a connection. But if you see them over and over again, that might go and turn into a romantic connection. But if you only saw them once, you would have never known. True. Yeah.

[00:20:19]>> you know, from both sides, I have a girlfriend and I have a guy friend who both joined running clubs hoping to meet someone. Of course they wanted to run, too. And they were pretty discouraged that they signed up, didn't meet anyone.

[00:20:31]>> Okay. So, you know, what advice would you say if they're if they say to you, like, I've tried everything, I've gone on apps, I've done the signing up for the things I enjoy.

[00:20:42]Is it something where they have to get honest with how they're approaching dating? Or is it just people are more closed off? Yeah, I think there's a few things. I think the reason why you want to sign up for something that you actually enjoy is that if you don't meet someone, it's not a waste because you actually did the thing you enjoyed, right? And I think you should go into those things with a mentality of like, I'm going to go meet my person, and instead be like, I'm going to a few connections." And friendships, that's great. If you If you left a running club and you made a new friend, that's incredible. Um and yeah, if you're trying all the things and it's not working for you, sometimes it's like maybe there's something that you're doing, right? I I have a client who lovely person, good-looking, smart, and he's been single for a really long time, and he doesn't get it. He thinks it's like the where he the city he lives in, he's gone from city to city, and I was just like, "You're a grouchy guy."

[00:21:38]>> [laughter] >> You're grouchy.

[00:21:40]>> You're grouchy. And you're jaded, and when you talk, you complain a lot, and you probably don't even recognize it, and that energy is a repellent. I don't care how good-looking you are.

[00:21:49]>> Right. And so when you're like, "Oh, I It's so hard to make friends. I can't meet any girls." and all that, I'm like, "What There's something going on."

[00:21:57]Um and you It's hard because your friends are probably not going to tell you, um but to figure out like maybe someone will give you good feedback. What is the energy when you When I meet you, how do you lead? Um and if you can find an honest friend who will tell you, that could be a start. How do you lead? That That is actually a I would say a huge part of first connecting with anyone, whether it's a friendship, whether it's romantic, it's You can feel if someone is an optimist, you can feel if they radiate good energy, and that's going to just attract you more to that person, whether it's a friendship or or something more. Yeah, and I know like it's hard, right? Like I mean, we are in trying times right now, and I'm not saying like just spiritually bypass and be positive all the time, but there's just an energy. There is energy that will draw people towards you, and there's an energy that's going to repel.

[00:22:51]And um you just have to be aware of what you are emitting. Mhm. Yeah.

[00:22:58]So I want to talk about this cultural shift that's happening with a lot of women now saying that they're over dating, they're decentering men, they just want to focus on their friendships and their community.

[00:23:10]>> Okay.

[00:23:11]Why is this happening now?

[00:23:13]>> [sighs] >> Uh so a few things. One is there is, depending on what city you live in, um a disproportionate of college educated women in contrast to men. So all of the things that we've been doing to prop women up in the last two decades have been working. It's incredible.

[00:23:31]Women are um getting their degrees on a much faster level than men are.

[00:23:37]Um so if you're looking for a college educated person, it's going to be a harder, a smaller dating pool for you.

[00:23:44]Now there's other things like app culture. Um I think that the whole rise of like the bro culture as well and and these things that are very sexist and misogynist kind of kind of coming and making a comeback, which is wild to me.

[00:23:58]>> Yeah. And so you can have a couple of these experiences and be like, wow, it's horrible out there. I'm not going to do it. And I I I don't want to take away how hard it is to date. It is It's harder to date.

[00:24:09]>> hard It is hard in general and I will say there's just other things that sort of push us over the top.

[00:24:15]>> You know, I remember right after uh the last election uh and I'll just say for me personally, I deleted all my apps. All my dating apps.

[00:24:25]I just felt like so disappointed, so angry, so hurt.

[00:24:30]And I'm not saying there was anyone in particular to blame, but I just wanted I just wanted it off. It's like I wanted to just clean my palate. So I understand where a lot of women are feeling frustrated.

[00:24:44]>> Yeah.

[00:24:45]Yeah, and I think that when we are saying like I'm going to decenter men, I'm going to focus on my friends and that's truly coming from a place of like abundance and like this is like wonderful, go ahead and do it. I think the problem is when we're doing that as a defense mechanism because we don't want to take the risk of being hurt.

[00:25:06]>> Yeah. And I do think you really do miss out on a lot.

[00:25:10]I do think that there are wonderful partners out there. Yeah, I I agree. I think that, you know, you have to get really honest with yourself about what is it that you want.

[00:25:18]>> Yeah. What is it? And if you're happy just if because love can come from a lot of different places. And if you feel content with getting that love from your friendships, from your family, from your pet, from your job, and not necessarily a partner, >> Yeah. then more power to you. But if you're not being honest about you really wanting a relationship and just having a defense mechanism, I think that's a lose-lose situation. For sure. Correct. Yeah.

[00:25:46]Uh so are we because there is this cultural shift happening, are we rejecting romance? Are we [snorts] more of like doing a correction of the way women have been oversold the fairy tale to make their partner the end-all-be-all source?

[00:26:10]>> Yeah. You know, because you think of everything we saw growing up.

[00:26:14]>> Right. It was the I need to be rescued in order to be happy. Yeah. Yeah. I think that there is a correction happening because I know growing up my idea was yeah, you center your life around a man. Like I was like, "Okay, I'm going to be someone's wife one day."

[00:26:30]That's going to be my role.

[00:26:31]>> Yeah. That's the dream. And after trying that and failing miserably, I'm like, "Oh, wait a minute. That's not the dream." Um and I think now people are like, "Yeah, that's not even if I want to have a partner that I don't want to be from that place of like I'm missing something and I need someone to fill that up." So I think that there's in many ways it's empowering that we want to build full lives so that we're not relying on one person to be our everything. But, again, I think that when it's coming from a place of scarcity or fear, that's not helpful.

[00:27:07]Right. Well, and I think it's, you know, very detrimental to your self-worth because then it's like, "Unless I get chosen, Right. then and you should also be doing the choosing.

[00:27:16]>> For sure.

[00:27:17]>> So, I think that's part of like that rewiring. Yeah. Yeah. It's like a I would say a definite relationship reset.

[00:27:26]>> Yeah. Yeah. Of understanding that it's two, like you said, two whole people coming together. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:27:32]If someone wants love, but keeps getting discouraged, Amy, what's the first thing you would uh tell them to examine in themselves?

[00:27:40]I would first, when I'm working with someone, I I look at where they're getting stuck in the funnel. Should I explain what the funnel is? Yeah, so the dating funnel um has five stages. On the top is prospecting. That's just getting the dates. Uh the next stage is discovery, which is dates one to two. And that's like a vibe check.

[00:28:00]Okay? Um then date the next after that, the stage three is evaluation. That's stage three to 20. That's when we're trying to see someone's character and if they have really what it takes to be in a relationship, which I say is chemistry, compatibility, the right timing, and mutuality. Both people making an effort to grow the the bond.

[00:28:22]Then after that, you hit a stage of like, "Okay, like I know this person enough. It's good enough. I'm going to really give this a try." We go to the fourth stage, which is commitment. And then after commitment is retention, which could be a whole 'nother book and retreat. It's like, "How can you keep a long-term relationship full of like thriving and still having passion?" And so, when someone's like, "I just can't do the dating. I'm over. I'm not going to do it at all." I'm like, "Well, let's not throw it out. Like, where is it specifically?" And they're like, "Oh, well, I can get the first date, but something happens where like I want to go again and they don't want to." I'm like, "Okay, so then we know where to work and talk to how to troubleshoot the right thing." Human beings are pretty predictable, so there's only a couple of patterns that are happening. So, I know that if someone can get date one, but they can't get date two, there's usually one of two things happening. They are probably over talking. So, the um other person is is not getting any dopamine, but you are, so you feel great about it and they're not. You know, last time you and I spoke, I thought this was so great because you go on a date and if you're the one who does all the talking, like you said, you get this huge hit of dopamine and the other person goes home and they feel unseen.

[00:29:33]>> Yeah. And you think like, "Well, why haven't they called? I had a great I had a great time."

[00:29:39]>> [laughter] >> It happens with friends as well, right?

[00:29:41]Oh my god.

[00:29:42]>> Yeah, so that's often one of the things they're not even aware that they're taking up all of the the space. Another thing is they are a bit too much in the performance. So, sometimes we'll use something, whether it's our looks, whether it's being funny to open the door to attract someone in, right? But then we don't we use that as our crutch and we don't let them see anything else.

[00:30:06]And so, if you're just jokester and you're just joking, joking, joking, the other person can't get to another level beyond the surface and they won't feel a connection with you. And so, you have to also be mindful like whatever it is that you're attracting someone, you have to show a little bit more and not, you know, you're not dumping all your childhood trauma on date one or two, but just it can't just be the the representative.

[00:30:31]>> Sure.

[00:30:32]>> Yeah. And it's got to go in layers, too, you know? I think that's part of it is like What would you say? Like, let's talk about that. If you if you're getting to a month in on dating, how many layers should be peeled back by then? I think by then you should know your partner's history. Like, why did their last relationship not work out? What did you learn about it?

[00:30:52]Um what do they want in life? Um those are it's totally okay to have those conversations. I think in like month two, when it starts getting a bit more serious, that's when you start having conversations about your compatibility together. Like, how do you see finances?

[00:31:08]Like, what's your ideal situation? Like, do you want children? I don't think you have those conversations on dates one or two. And I know that's controversial cuz some people like, I don't have time. I don't want to waste it. But I'm like, I'm sorry. This is how dating happens.

[00:31:22]That's how connection happens. It's building rapport. You can't, just because you're in a rush, press a button and like fast forward through it, you know? It's not Amazon Prime. Right.

[00:31:33]>> [laughter] >> If only.

[00:31:36]What do you say, you know, there's certain people that they just can't be alone? Mhm. And I think for I'll just use myself for as an example.

[00:31:46]Like, I don't have a problem being on my own or and I'd rather be alone than to be with the wrong person.

[00:31:51]>> Yeah.

[00:31:52]So, my big fear when I'm out in the dating world is like, I don't want to just find someone who's afraid to be alone or just wants a replacement or want Right.

[00:32:03]>> Because and I don't want to give I don't want to beat up on the guys. But I feel like men in particular don't like being alone.

[00:32:11]Okay. Okay.

[00:32:13]>> And is that my stuff, Amy?

[00:32:14]>> Yeah, I think that's yours. Yeah, [laughter] yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[00:32:17]Right? Because I don't know what has happened in the past. There's something there that you're like, oh, well, I meet a guy and he's choosing me cuz he just doesn't want to be alone. No, and you know what? I don't feel that way. But I feel like guys move on really fast before processing their last relationship. And I'm like, oh my god, they're already in a relationship like the majority of my guy friends that I know, they're like in a relationship right away. And I'm just like as women, we don't do that. We take time to process. We want to understand what we did. And so, that's sort of that moving target of like, "Oh, because I'm seeing this trend, yeah, and you know, it's the good majority of of guys that I know. And I have a lot of guy friends.

[00:32:59]So, I'm always wondering like if [laughter] they're my study, you know, then am I also being targeted in that way where it's not a genuine connection, but it's filling the void.

[00:33:11]>> It sounds like your concern is more not like, "Oh my gosh, they're they're don't want to be alone." It's more they have unfinished business from the past that's still in their future. Mhm. And so, I think that is different. And I also want to just, you know, challenge you. Yes, please.

[00:33:32]You can have had a breakup and maybe even feel sad about that breakup cuz it didn't work out or even miss them a bit.

[00:33:40]And you can still be excited and build love with someone else. It's not this like neat tidy ending like we would want it. Like, they ended, it's this neat tidy bow, they had 3 months to grieve it, and now it's done, and it's like never going to be a part of them. No, like >> No, and I and I and I don't believe that, but I do think there is some required time, yeah, some downtime to reflect yeah, and think about what role did I play in the demise of this relationship, to feel all the hurt and sadness, to grieve the You have to grieve the relationship. Yeah. I mean, to me, that's that's me. That's my healthy way of of how I feel I deal with things.

[00:34:17]Um so that the next person doesn't get the aftermath. I don't get triggered by, "Well, this person used to, you know, live a double life, and so like now I'm super suspicious of you because I didn't take time to actually learn why I attracted what I attracted in that last relationship. Yeah, and someone can also take 2 years, but don't they don't do the work to do that processing. So, it's more of like are they doing the work?

[00:34:44]>> Okay.

[00:34:45]>> Yeah, it's more like that.

[00:34:46]>> Yeah, I think I have to just trust too that if I'm doing the work, then I'll attract someone who's also doing the work.

[00:34:51]>> so, too. I think like you're definitely in a place where like you have good intuition, right? And I think you are going to be attracted to and attract someone who's at a similar emotional level.

[00:35:03]Um so, maybe you got duped in the past, but I I think you really did do the work to learn from that. Like I don't think you're going to get duped again.

[00:35:09]>> God, I HOPE SO.

[00:35:11]>> [laughter] >> WHAT'S THE BIGGEST MYTH, AMY, people believe about finding love that you wish they would stop repeating?

[00:35:21]Oh, man, there's so many.

[00:35:22]>> Well, say a few. Let's hear them.

[00:35:24]>> One of them is like >> [sighs and gasps] >> you know, when it happens, it happens.

[00:35:29]When you know, when the universe decides, it'll happen. I'm like, okay, imagine if you wanted a job and you needed money and you're like, if the universe happened. Like, no, you're you are like going on LinkedIn and stalking recruiters and writing resumes and getting rejected. You go and you get the thing. And I think some people, especially like, when is it going to happen? When you go to Pilates class?

[00:35:52]Like, you're working all day, you go to Pilates, and you have a smoothie. Like, fate's going to strike then?

[00:35:57]>> Right.

[00:35:58]>> It's just I think this passive approach of letting the universe just handle is a way of making an excuse so you don't actually have to put yourself out there and carve the time and try and fail and get rejected and all that stuff that comes with dating. I completely agree.

[00:36:15]>> Yeah.

[00:36:15]>> Like, I always tell my girlfriends, you know, they're just like, I just don't have time, you know, I'm focused on my career, I'm focused on this, and it's just too hard. And I was like, well, the same way you want that position, you have to apply it if that's the priority in your life. Yeah. I mean, yeah, it sometimes it sucks and it's hard and it's super discouraging, but you still got to make the effort.

[00:36:38]Yeah, and for some people, I truly believe not everyone should be in a relationship.

[00:36:42]>> [laughter] >> Like, you just shouldn't. Like, if you are in a messy divorce or you just, you know, raised your first round and you have a startup and you're like struggling, you don't have capacity in your life, right? I look at if someone if you're evaluating if someone is ready for a relationship, there needs to be three things that they have. They have to have intention, so they actually like you. They have to have capacity, they're in a season of life where they actually have time to invest in the relationship.

[00:37:10]That if there is a fight, they're not like, "Oh my god, I have so much going on. I just can't deal with that." And they also have to have ability, which is a foundation level of communication skills, relational skills, and some people don't have that and they never will build it. And they should never be in a relationship, ever. But this whole like it's not just vibes.

[00:37:30]>> [laughter] >> Just liking someone is not enough to be in a relationship. So, for the person that doesn't have relational skills, how would you tell them to start working on?

[00:37:39]How What's a way that Listen to the What a Wonderful Podcast. It's free. Like, come on. I You have at your fingertips so many ways that you can learn how to build your skills of how to be a good listener, how to be curious, how to have a conversation. It's all What a partner like there's a thousand podcasts called What a Partner Wants, like How to Build a Healthy Relationship.

[00:38:01]>> Read a book. [laughter] Oh my god. Amy, what does give you hope [laughter] when it comes to love and connection right now?

[00:38:10]>> [sighs] >> Uh let's see.

[00:38:13]You know, I used to run So, my boot camps used to have only women and I only had women cuz that's the only people signed up. And now I have like a 50/50 split. And so when people are like, you know, like there's no good guys out there. I hear that complaint a lot. I'm like, they're great. They're coming to the retreat. And like, trust me, all the women are like, "Wow, these guys." Like, but there's a lot of great people out there and you have to believe it.

[00:38:39]Because if you don't believe it, you will find evidence to prove your beliefs that there's no no good people out there or that you're too old, you're too this.

[00:38:47]And that will become your reality. Yeah.

[00:38:51]You know, your book, your first book, Breakup Bootcamp, has really been a saving grace. And surprisingly, I have gifted it to more men than women.

[00:39:02]And because what I found fascinating, and this is what I learned when I actually attended your bootcamp, was how when we have our heart broken and we go through heartbreak, it's like weaning off a drug. Yeah. And I don't think most people know the mechanics or the science behind it. They just think, "What's wrong with me?"

[00:39:22]So, can you break that down a little bit for someone who's really hurting right now and they're going through a breakup and they're just thinking, "I'm never going to get over this. It's so painful."

[00:39:32]You know, they whether they feel betrayed, abandoned, and explain, Amy, just the neurological process that our mind, body, soul goes through.

[00:39:43]>> Yeah. So, when you are with someone, you have these neural pathways that wire together. And your brain is a prediction making machine. And so, it expects that when you text, you'll get a text back.

[00:39:54]That in if you live together in the morning, you'll see them. And when there's a breakup, and suddenly there's no contact, you're not seeing that, your brain is like, "What's going on?"

[00:40:03]There's a prediction error. And so, to correct that, it's like, "Okay, well, go make this thing happen. Go show up at their doorstep. Go text them. Go do all of these things to get that old prediction to keep going." On top of that, you have all these chemicals from dopamine and oxytocin that you used to get through this relationship, and suddenly that person is no longer there.

[00:40:27]So, you go into this kind of deficit and withdrawal, and there is this intense drop where you can't eat, you're obsessing, you can't think, you keep ruminating, and you think you're going crazy because even if you know logically that you shouldn't reach out, everything in your body is telling you to do that.

[00:40:45]Um so, you almost need to go against your gut feelings during this kind of shock stage of a breakup. And I think it's even worse when it's like a situationship or a hot or cold thing because when it's hot and cold and you don't know when the rewards are going to come, it really impacts the reward circuits in your brain very similar to a gambling addict at a slot machine. So, you get a way bigger burst of dopamine and when you get a bit of attention or they like your story, um and then you crash really, really hard >> because you don't know when it's coming again. Exactly. And then after a while, you're just trying to not feel bad. So, you want to reach out or you want to see them so that you could stop feeling the pain. It's not even to feel good anymore.

[00:41:29]>> Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. On the opposite, let's swing the pendulum to the other side.

[00:41:34]When you first connect with someone and you're getting hit with the dopamine and you're the feel-good hormones, >> Yeah.

[00:41:41]how cautious do we have to be or can you just enjoy it? Like, how cautious do you have to be to know that like you're kind of not in your right mind when you're crushing on somebody?

[00:41:51]>> Yeah. Yeah. It's why I have in my book an exercise to understand like what are your deal breakers and your preferences and knowing the difference and having people know their deal breakers before they start dating. And these are not like, "Oh, but Chad's so cute. You know, this deal breaker of hard drugs, that's fine. Like, he does cocaine every day."

[00:42:10]Like, right? Like, because [laughter] you're going So, I fell on under the rug.

[00:42:15]Right? That will happen. Like, you you meet someone and you have chemistry and you're like, what deal breakers? I don't have any.

[00:42:21]But, if you actually have them written down or you have your friends hold you accountable, that will help you be a bit more logical. And I think people have to understand like the first like 2 months, you are on a chemical joy ride and so is the other person. So, even if they are the most avoidant person, the most afraid of commitment, um they will show up with their best selves and they will initiate you really well, not because they're dubious, but because the they have all this chemical assistance to help them. Dopamine motivates you to get what you want. But, a lot of the times they crash out um and then they're like, oh, I'm bored of this thing. And then you're like, wait a minute, why aren't they initiating anymore? And then you start chasing them and the cycle happens.

[00:43:06]>> Jeez. So, okay. So, what are the some of the signs?

[00:43:09]>> [laughter] >> I don't know. It's not that scary out there.

[00:43:13]Maybe I will just stay home.

[00:43:15]>> [laughter] >> What are some of the signs that it's mutually beneficial, that both people are ready for a relationship, that you can trust each other even though you know you're being flooded with you know, drug on the brain.

[00:43:33]>> Right. Um so, when I look at the four pillars before in the evaluation stage, before you decide like, okay, I'm in, it is again chemistry, compatibility, so an alignment of core values and you want the same things, um timing and mutuality. And so, something you can look for is is there reciprocation or is it really just me doing the initiating and the trying and like, oh, like, I'll meet closer to your house cuz it's easier for you. And when you start noticing that like, oh, like, I'm doing all that thing.

[00:44:07]Pause. Allow space for the other person to be able to give back to you. Because also people who tend to be in the habit of over giving, we just keep taking more steps when someone isn't and there is no space for that person to give to us.

[00:44:23]>> Yeah, the train's left the station.

[00:44:24]They're not even on board.

[00:44:25]>> Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And just like looking at, you know, the number one thing that is important for a partner is if someone is conscientious, meaning they follow through on what they say, they're reliable, they're honest, and that's what you really want to look for as you get to know someone. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:44:44]So, your new book, Unsingle: How to Date Smarter, Create Love That Lasts, uh the checklist. I definitely need to go through the checklist.

[00:44:53]What's If you could say like there's one thing I really want readers to take away from this book, what is it? Most people are only one or two changes away from being able to create a a healthy relationship. And I know that sounds wild, but if you are putting yourself out there and you're not getting the results, there's something in your behavior that is repeating that you're not aware of. And that's really why I wrote this book to help you pinpoint what that is cuz it's blocking you from the results you want.

[00:45:24]So, there's a self checklist.

[00:45:25]>> Yeah.

[00:45:26]>> Okay, this is good.

[00:45:27]>> And can I say one more thing?

[00:45:29]>> Yes. Say five more things, Amy. We need all the help we can get. And daters in 2026 need all of the help. I think if you're going to build anything meaningful in life, uh whether that's a career or or love, all you can do is put 100% of your 50%.

[00:45:48]So, that is like getting putting yourself out there, asking your friends to set you up, learning about yourself so that you could show up well on dates and not be a repellent and attract instead. And if you're trying all of those things, um you can look back and be like, I tried and you won't look back with regret. But what happens is a lot of the times we're not putting in 100% of our 50. We're just like putting in maybe 20 and then we're saying like, you know what? It's it's my city, it's my age and we use that as an excuse to not actually try our best and I think that's a different type of pain because you will never know when you look back if it didn't work out because you never truly tried. Mhm. And I love that analogy of give your 50%.

[00:46:36]>> Give your 100% of your 50.

[00:46:38]>> Right. Right. Give your 100% of your 50 because a lot of times, you know, and I'm talking to my past self is that we will overcompensate and give the 70% or give the 80% and it can be so dangerous because we're again, the train's leaving the station and that other person isn't even on board yet.

[00:46:58]Exactly and there's also things that are out of your control, luck, right? You can meet a great person and then their parent has you know, Alzheimer's. Like you can't control that, right? And so I think that's it just really helps me feel like I'm empowered because I can control my 50% and the rest is really that is up to the universe. Sure. How do we keep ourselves from the projecting? Because I feel like that's where a lot of us get lost and feel the disappointment and maybe even we'll write someone off early because we've projected this fantasy in who we think they are, who we want them to be, especially with dating apps because we don't really know, we haven't peeled back the layers but we've already created in our mind who this person might be. Yeah, so whether you have a habit of projecting and turning someone into a fantasy or being judgmental and dismissing someone quickly, they're both doing the same thing. It's filling the gaps with a story Mhm. before you've allowed reality to happen. And so, both require the same strategy, which is finding your tools to get grounded and present. And when your mind is running and escaping from you, um and building this fantasy world or dismissing them as like ick, uh you have to pull yourself back into reality.

[00:48:20]Is there a I don't know, maybe like a one to three checklist thing where you can say, "Okay, here's something I can do to ground me, to really see the person, and to make sure that I'm being really self-aware and how I'm showing up as the dater?" Yeah, I'll give a one exercise and to help you to not future trip. It's called the stop sign exercise. Have you ever heard of it? Okay. So, you basically, uh what you want to do is you close your eyes, you imagine a big red stop sign, you say out the word stop, and then you open and you start looking around and listing everything you're grateful for and why. And what will happen is your thought of that that was about to go on a this runaway train of like, "Oh my gosh, like we could like get married and have two dogs and a rescue shelter." It It forces you to get back into the present. And the first few times you try it, you're like, "This doesn't work, Amy." But if you do it more and more, you build a tool that will actually help you get back to present. Instead of being like, "Don't think about the thing." you actually stop thinking about the thing.

[00:49:22]And why is it important to add gratitude?

[00:49:24]Because it makes you like, "Oh my gosh, I'm so grateful for the sun." It It forces you to be in the present moment.

[00:49:30]>> what's actually in in that present moment.

[00:49:33]>> Yeah, so that other thought doesn't pull you away. So, that's a really helpful tool to help you ground. And I think when you are, you know, in between dates and you're thinking about that person, it's totally fine, but like avoid the online sleuthing. I think that's when we get into a problem. Before we've gone on a date or we've gone on a and then we start looking up their LinkedIn or their social and like we try to find things to build this person up like oh, they have a house in the Hamptons like oh my gosh, like I could I could live in like the Hamptons like we we create ideas of people versus just allowing this to unfold and sometimes we do that because it's a way of having some control. Mhm.

[00:50:12]Yeah. Yeah, I will say that that's sort of like we we live in the day and age now where someone can know you before you've even revealed anything about yourself.

[00:50:22]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:50:23]>> And it can either create a great bias or it can create a great projection. Either don't help. Yeah. I've always like when I was dating, I never looked at their social profiles, I never looked them up online for that exact reason cuz I knew what I would do. I'm like oh, I'm just going to judge you or I'm going to fall in love with you before our first date.

[00:50:41]>> [laughter] >> Amy, are you down to play one more round of no room for small talk?

[00:50:46]>> Ooh. Okay, yeah.

[00:50:47]>> [laughter] >> Fierra, roll the dice.

[00:50:51]>> [music] >> Category X. Name one thing your ex taught you about yourself. Mhm.

[00:51:01]That I placed too much of my identity and self-worth in another person. Mhm. And that was extremely unhealthy.

[00:51:13]Wow. Yeah. Perfectly said.

[00:51:15]>> Yeah. Amy, congratulations on Unsingle.

[00:51:18]I'm so excited for you.

[00:51:20]>> much. It is such an honor to sit down with you. Thank you for the work that you're doing. You're creating a lot of hope and healing at the same time.

[00:51:26]>> Thank you. This was so fun. Thank you.

[00:51:30]Remember to like, comment, and [music] subscribe so you never miss an episode.

[00:51:34]Have your own deep conversations and discussions with me and the other FYI AI personas by downloading [music] the FYI app today. Available for free in the App Store and Google Play.