Asante Akyem North Lawmaker Detained Over Money Laundering Claims — What Happens Next?

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[00:00:00]We got to the other matters. Well, I I'll be tempted to ask whether or not in your regime did you did you start investigating any of your party members?

[00:00:09]>> No.

[00:00:09]>> Oh, yes. OSP did >> OSP.

[00:00:12]>> No, but the OSP is an independent >> independent. I'm talking about the attorney not fing because OSB cannot file those not to even we complain about the OSB that it was as if all cases was focused I'm coming and focusing on PP people and I'm not asking about the OSB >> because you know when you write the question protocol to the OSB that is investigate this case by an ordinary citizen you go ahead and do it and that was what he was you lost and we didn't we didn't file any >> prose you're rolling a certain responsibility at the doorstep of the NDC and I'm saying that it will be nice to led me into any of the cases that the den attorney under your regime started investigating any of its own political pertainment >> that is why we had the office of the special prosecutor to look at all these related issues that is why we created that office and that office was doing it work well till these people came into office and decided that either um OSP himself and get him out or they make him defant and today as we sit here he's defant >> now the man cannot even work >> he's working >> where is he working when you tell him that every work you are doing bring it to me to give you the order before >> let me let me come to you because last week >> full details of where >> Amanda and I were here we went extensively on the oh porn matter and so let me come to you before I I come back to uh the other panelist so this entire a case about the Asantia North MP >> and uh him being detained in the Netherlands and all. Which part of it surprises? Which part of this matter surprises you at all?

[00:01:56]>> Mhm.

[00:01:57]>> Nothing of it.

[00:01:58]>> No, nothing. Perhaps maybe the sheer scale of it. Um because at least from the reports that we've seen, they're talking about some $32 million, you know, amount which is related to the charges. And um perhaps the amount is is is a significant amount compared to the kinds of figures that we talk about in Ghana terms. So so for example the NACO case we just talked about we're talking something the region of about $4 million.

[00:02:27]So when you compare that to what you know the MP is alleged to be involved in that's quite a huge a huge a huge figure. So um as it stands now the MP being detained there is not new.

[00:02:42]We've seen things like this quite even recently. I I recall when for example Haja Farel's case commenced she was in the UK for a private visit >> that was about $2 million or so.

[00:02:55]>> Yes. $2 million. Yes. It wasn't that much. But she was detained in the in the UK at the instance of the FBI and not in Ghana. So that's also interesting. It looks like the FBI have they have different strategies they use for different types of cases. There are times when they make specific requests to Ghana directly as we saw for example in the DJ Joe uh remix matter that's the Kobating gentleman who was uh a request for extradition was done to face charges related to some romance scam in the US.

[00:03:26]We know for example uh one of the ongoing cases relates to the Abutraka Abua extradition request which is also going through the court process but we've seen like in this case the MP's case the Haja Far matter some um notice or request was made to a third country or another country for for the person to be detained and so on. So it's not strange.

[00:03:51]Um, of course the person being an MP in Ghana does not guarantee them immunity in another jurisdiction.

[00:03:58]>> We don't know from a diplomatic party.

[00:04:01]>> He guarantees them courtesies.

[00:04:03]>> Oh yes.

[00:04:04]>> No immunity. Yes. Yes. Yes. So for example, if an if a member of parliament is traveling for personal >> uh if he's traveling for personal stuff and yet traveling on a diplomatic passport which is usually not shouldn't be >> well I'm traveling I know I'm member of parliament it's for my personal business but I decide to want to go with my diplomatic passport will these courtesy still be extended to >> even if you are traveling on a diplomatic passport for official government business it still doesn't give you a right to commit crime anywhere in the world.

[00:04:38]>> No. So like I said, not immunity, but courtesies is >> What kind ofies are these? Are these Can you demanded by law?

[00:04:47]>> So like you can't bundle him like you bundle any other at least speak to the Ghanaian authority. Listen, >> he wasn't he wasn't bundled. The story doesn't suggest that he was bundled.

[00:04:56]>> He was just taken from the from the aircraft handcuffed in the aircraft.

[00:05:00]>> Okay. Before I come back to the lawyers, give us the picture proper. It will situate the conversation.

[00:05:04]>> Yeah. So >> according to what I know >> they touched down they were all instructed by the pilot to stay put.

[00:05:11]Nobody gets down for routine security checks.

[00:05:15]>> Then the authorities walk in arms with arms walked in went straight to the business about six of them they went in straight to the business uh class where he was seated >> then identified him. He said yes he was the one. They said well he's under arrest. right there. His colleagues were like, "What's happening?"

[00:05:36]>> But where else could they have?

[00:05:37]>> No, for me him.

[00:05:38]>> Oh, you you would rather they take him out of the plane before they tell him.

[00:05:42]>> Let him get down.

[00:05:43]>> Okay.

[00:05:44]>> I being arrested the same day. They also >> It's actually standard.

[00:05:48]>> You do the same.

[00:05:50]>> Hang on. It's important that we get the story well told. Then we can really invite the layers of escorted him out without handcuffing him right there in the plane.

[00:06:01]>> Is that what you What's the Alfred We talking about Alfred? Alfred, please.

[00:06:04]>> Diplomatic member of parliament here.

[00:06:06]Ghanaian diplomat. So what he was a diplomat focus on me. Focus on me. He doesn't ask the questions. He was ced or what? He was stuck there in the in the in the plane.

[00:06:18]>> Okay.

[00:06:18]>> That is that is where I find it a bit over.

[00:06:22]>> No, you could have been cuted out. Oh, you holding arms. Fine.

[00:06:26]>> Okay. Back to the lawyer.

[00:06:28]>> This is information new information. um which is interesting >> to know perhaps the approach that was used but in any case as I said um those K is being breached and so on our our country can always raise uh those diplomatic queries with the Netherlands and so on because there are certain uh minimum standards that are required when you are dealing with somebody who has a diplomatic status which in this case I don't know if the confirmation is that he went on official business with a a diplomatic passport. But our our foreign minister is up to that task. As I'm sure you can see, we are seriously taking on the South Africans for you know what is happening in in South Africa to Ghanaian and other West African citizens and also h we know that there's a report has been made to the AU in respect of that. So I think on the diplomatic side that issue can be dealt with and and and and Ghana can raise it and what whatever uh consequences need to fall from that will happen. But again back to the process um what you asked. So once the the arrest has been done the question that comes up is whether indeed MP can be extradited because in every country they have some law or the other which regulates extraditions. In Ghana we have it in the US they have it and so on. So everybody has a right to basically use that process to challenge the extradition as well.

[00:07:54]>> Educate me. Sorry MF. So is in this case is he going to be the strradition law of Netherlands or the strradition law of Ghana? No. No. The tradition law of Netherlands because he's present arrested in in the Netherlands.

[00:08:09]>> And so um he can challenge his extradition based on whatever grounds they have there. I mean generally most countries have grounds that relate to if for example they you have to the states has to prove that the offense is an extraditable offense which means that in their law they would have spelt out the kinds of offenses that if you are charged with and the request has been made you can be arrested for whether there's due process followed whether his rights have been violated in any way and so on and so forth. just like we have many countries have similar regimes because uh under international law also there's quite a fair standard for for those determinations. So anybody has a right to challenge that right to extradition.

[00:08:49]We've seen Ken Fata doing it in the US.

[00:08:51]We've seen Abu Triker's case here in Ghana. I mean and so on. So at the end of the day Ghana and the the the the accused MP have that right to to be enforced or asserted. And I'm sure once um he was uh on diplomatic passport Ghana the ministry of foreign affairs together with our embassy in the Netherlands will afford him all the the assistance he requires to be able >> even if he wasn't on diplomatic passport he's still a member of parliament would >> in fact yes in fact even if he was an ordinary citizen the embassy will provide uh services yes in fact many instances where our embassies abroad support Ghanaian nationals in one case or the other even when it is purely like a judicially uh let's say domestic matter. You see this one has an international dimension because the request is coming from the US but let's even say a Ghanaian living in the Netherlands was involved in some criminal activity and was being charged.

[00:09:53]Our embassies routinely support such Ghanaians by extending consular services to them helping them to find a lawyer and all of those things. So I expect that similar thing will happen. In fact, you know, over the weekend, there was a a report where um report I mean, I'm saying this because now there's so much going on with AI and and all of that, but there was a a clip where the MP is speaking to that was an old issues. Aha.

[00:10:21]So, so it's not even related. That was an old one. Exactly.

[00:10:24]>> So, we have to be sure any any >> happened once before.

[00:10:30]>> It happened once and there was rumors that he was arrested. So that was an answer >> debunking the previous Aha. Exactly. So when I saw it, that was my my my my question whether indeed it was from this current issue and if it was then it means that he has access to even a phone to record all of these things which is not the case. So that's good.

[00:10:49]>> I mean this brings to the conversation international law, domestic law. In the middle of it will be some conflicts of laws and it will be very critical. I hear Lom say that well he'll definitely be extradited based on the Netherlands laws despite him being Ghanaian. I see you were trying you making some notes.

[00:11:09]You have some responses.

[00:11:10]>> Um just some responses to everything that's been said. I mean I think the way they got him off the flight in fairness I think that was standard protocol because whoever you are um they get you off the flight like that in terms of if it's drug offenses or different things.

[00:11:25]>> Okay. you know, FBI, Interpol, and the Netherlands authorities >> regardless of your diplomacy, the diplomatic state.

[00:11:31]>> The thing is, it's actually the safety of the other passengers.

[00:11:34]>> So, if um they you know what I mean, if it's a serious offense, etc., you're basically trying to isolate that person and see him off because that is the alleged threat even though it's not to the plane. And then once you've like quarantined him by getting him off, everybody else can get off in a standard protocol way. So it's it's just airline, you know, protocol because you're trying to exit the quote unquote problem and then um doing that >> you have to handcuff him and walk.

[00:12:08]>> No, that is the protocol. I mean I I've I've had people on flights with other people. This has happened to other people. I mean it wasn't a gun in it was a Nigerian that was escorted off. a person doesn't >> they were escorted off in exactly the same protocol. Nobody was allowed to leave the seat. They were handcuffed first and then they were escorted off.

[00:12:25]Second issue is about this um this diplomatic um passport that he has under the Vienna Convention. He does not enjoy um full immunity because he is not embassy staff. You've got certain criterias of people, embassy staff, and then even then if if a police officer asks you and you say you have diplomatic immunity, they want to know your your your car registration number if you have one, is it diplomatic? Do you have do you enjoy certain taxes in that country?

[00:12:57]Um because you have diplomatic immunity, etc. He doesn't qualify. This won't be handled because of his diplomatic immunity because he doesn't have it. Um the second issue is the extradition.

[00:13:11]Should he be extradited or should he resist extradition, he will resist it on the fact that the procedure wasn't followed in some way or there was human rights violations. So if the Ghana government gets in touch with the US lawyer, they can see some violations occurred from the US side and the Netherlands lawyer will see if there are some violations. just a standard procedure where you're cuffed because they have to protect other passengers and all of that. What kind of rights do you anticipate may be violated if it's standard procedure?

[00:13:42]>> No, but but that those are not the rights we're talking about. We're talking about um you know the facts of the particular case which I am not privy to. So once they look into that they will start mounting a defense based on procedural irregularity.

[00:13:56]Um secondly or thirdly um this point about diplomatic courtesy which you raised is a very important point because um I mean we all accept on this panel that if you are um guilty of a criminal offense you should face you should face you know the tune of it you know you you should be uh uh prosecuted etc. But diplomatic courtesy may mean that he could have been expelled in a different way. So if Ghana is building a relationship with the US and they've extradited at least nine people in the last one year and the relationship has deepened and they share all this intelligence and their security agencies share all this intelligence etc. which they do then because he's a politically exposed person the US government might have elected not to share that intelligence in order to get this guy on the flight.

[00:14:55]>> No, for me I think they were being smart. Sorry for cutting it. I think they were being smart because if they look at the weight of this legislature legislator >> visa v what we are also pressuring them to bring the former minister it could be on the same p they ask us to extradite him we might also say then let's swap.

[00:15:14]No, no, no. Ghana would never have swapped. Ghana would never have swapped.

[00:15:18]Ghana would have um looked into whether they thought criminality exists, but it wasn't for them to answer. The thing is when you're dealing with politically exposed people, they are called that for a particular reason. I see.

[00:15:29]>> Meaning that um they enjoy certain rights because they are within you know a party or they he's an independent so he supports that party. And it also means that um they enjoy benefits that they perhaps shouldn't enjoy in terms of they are absolutely protected >> and that shouldn't be the case. So to remove that element, >> you know, intelligence might not have been shared for him to get on that flight.

[00:15:56]>> I'm not sure what the and I I think the question you asked on your poster, the poster says, you know, how is this all going to play out? It can't play out with um immunity because he's he he just doesn't have diplomatic immunity. It's going to be diplomatic back channels and closed door negotiations in order to do a swap if at all. Um but is that not an indirect diplomatic immunity some way?

[00:16:24]It may not have been written black and white, but if we're going to have a tea and have a discussion over you because you're a diplomat, what would what would you describe that as? Well, it's it's it's high stakes negotiation. Um because >> for example, if the foreign ministry like Lom said, if they get involved that's inviting it into an area of uh diplomacy, >> well, diplomacy, but it's also what do you have and what do I have and what are we prepared to share because of this? I mean, Ghana has already shared too much in terms of nine people went across.

[00:16:53]>> Um so, we might be approaching the Netherlands more to do a a swap.

[00:16:58]>> Okay. because um this happened on their territory and they are the ones who will decide whether we can't negotiate with the US.

[00:17:06]>> No, we can because the US everybody it's negotiating with everybody.

[00:17:09]>> The the US can sort of back down a little should they choose to um because they're getting something out of it and the Netherlands can see what they can get from this if it's worth them.

[00:17:20]>> I don't I don't think we'll go down that way. I don't think we will go down that route. Well, I mean, the reason why I believe we're going to go down that route is because >> Ghana may argue that if they had been given the opportunity, they may have done the right thing. But optics wise, this makes us look very embarrassing internationally and locally. And we weren't given the opportunity to control the narrative of how this was rolled out. And because we weren't given that opportunity, this makes us look bad and then it it also involves a um you know a member of parliament etc. So Ghana basically would want to take control of how this optics and how this narrative plays out because you're trying to minimize damage >> standard what parliament is doing already saying that they have taken notice of the detention. We have heard the chief whip for the NBC as you mentioned uh the majority in caucus majority caucus in parliament also mentioned that of course they extending all the help that they can and all and >> and then they don't want to leave one behind in terms of you know the US has a very strong military policy where they don't leave one behind as we saw with the Iran case where there was one left behind and they did everything spent millions to get him back >> this is not the military but because of the way that these parties have such a good relation relationship in terms of the US and Ghana. And then it could be said that the US elected to not share that information. Ghana could then say because of how bad these optics look, we want to control how the optics look and at least get our guy back and we might be willing to give Netherlands, possibly um um the US something about it. And it's going to lead to a larger conversation about how Ghana handles extraditions in future.

[00:19:21]>> Okay.

[00:19:21]>> For instance, the China doesn't um extradite >> um um Russia doesn't extradite.

[00:19:29]Serillon, which has less negotiating power, >> has like a two three-stage um process of extraditing even if they have an extradition treaty with you. The second um level I think is the attorney general decides and then even that it has to go to court etc etc. So people take their passports quite seriously in terms of they don't just expel you know their people no matter what they've done somewhere else in the world.

[00:19:57]>> Okay.

[00:19:57]>> So it's going to lead to that conversation as well I think.

[00:20:00]>> Okay. Um s I'm coming to you but when I come back to you my question on this particular matter would be would it be would it have been different if the US was requesting the extradition if he was in Ghana here will article 117 come to play here at all because yes is Abua Abua yeah he's not immune to anything he doesn't have any uh parliamentary privileges but this is a member of parliament Ghana here we know what they enjoy in fact there's an argument that they in it's you're not immune from criminal uh uh procedures, right? If if you're charged under criminality, I don't know how 117 would apply. When I come to you, I want to know what difference it would be if he was in Ghana and then the US, you know, extended the request for extradition.

[00:20:46]How will 117 come to play? Let me come back to do you know him personally?

[00:20:50]>> Yes. Yes. Yes.

[00:20:51]>> What would you say? What kind of person would you say he is?

[00:20:53]>> Okay. So for us in the you know I was in Sar Plains and he's in uh Satiaim North >> which shares boundary with Sarah Franes.

[00:21:04]So we crisscross our political activities and he's been contesting since I think 208 the third.

[00:21:12]>> Yeah. Yeah. This is about the third or the fourth time. And he's known as a philanthropist in the whole area. That is how he built >> he was known was he known before he started contesting was he known as a philanthropist?

[00:21:24]>> Yeah that's what he was doing before he started going so in fact some of those philanthropic guests >> actually urged him on to become the MP.

[00:21:33]So he's been going for independence for more than three or four about three or four times now.

[00:21:38]>> So like that's why he he builds schools build moss and he does a lot. So >> do you know his profession beyond a member of parliament?

[00:21:45]>> Yeah. So we all know him as a businessman.

[00:21:49]>> Yeah. You know, >> we all know him as a businessman. He does a lot of businesses. Forest bureau like he's a businessman. That's what how we all know him.

[00:21:59]>> When you saw these allegations, were you supposed >> Yeah. Well, because of the kind of business.

[00:22:05]>> Forgive me. I'm doing a personality profile of him through you.

[00:22:08]>> Yeah. Which is not fair.

[00:22:10]>> It's okay. So for me when I saw the charge of uh money laundry I was like ouch if the FBI sees money laundry my sister you have to start praying >> because 32 million we were discussing the 32 million suggestion if that is the case 32 million wouldn't ordinarily involve that one individual it means it's a group >> so they've done the trace of how that 32 million filtered out >> and you might be the final receiver.

[00:22:44]>> Yes. So money laundering means that it goes through that.

[00:22:47]>> Okay. All right. Please hang on just stay with me. Yeah. I was asking I was just profiling that MP slightly before and Alfred I'll come to you Lenla I'll come to you on the question. I was just profiling him. Um you know you're telling us about some of things that he was doing and you said you were you surprised at the allegations at all?

[00:23:04]>> Yeah. Uh I was a bit shocked but not surprised.

[00:23:08]>> Yeah. the way he was picked up thanks to the education of my dear sister and l I think now I've understood that yes anybody at all apart from maybe the president can be picked >> I didn't help >> you didn't even hear >> so you see the danger the danger for me and what I am afraid of now is that other countries can now start red flagging our MPs that is what is >> how will they do that if you've not Yeah, because well you see uh Alfred raised something that I told him listen if you try that in Ghana we'll be in trouble because >> like what >> when I wanted to become a DC pri right after my name went into the vetting committee at the regional level once you get to the national level they start checking your background >> who are they >> national security will do it he and I will do it so >> especially when the three of us our names went to the president for nomination. They did digging for like almost 1 month.

[00:24:12]>> Yeah.

[00:24:13]>> This small deputy I wanted to chop, they took two weeks to go and dig my DC profiles.

[00:24:19]>> Exactly.

[00:24:20]>> But the irony and sorry to cut do that for our MPs.

[00:24:24]>> No, no, no. They do. The irony is, and I know this for a fact, but our security agencies do have um profiles of MPs and people who come to their attention because people complain. So it's either the public that complains or international departments that complain etc. So they keep these files but the irony is um government really acts on it. So you've got dossas of information about so many people and that is why perhaps the US handled it the way they did.

[00:24:57]>> Can can I say that some investigation bodies in this country are not surprised like is not surprised. probably have something they know something.

[00:25:05]>> Yeah. FIC FIC action of who will take that action and if government is not willing does not have the will to take that action >> then the their counterparts you know FBI CIA etc will assist in ex you know in getting them out. But you see I was saying that earlier we have to or we have some precedents. Okay. So if you take Haja for real for example like I said she was in Ghana. I'm sure the US knew about her being in Ghana and everything >> but she was first detained in the UK >> when she traveled.

[00:25:44]>> The case that we've talked about famous which is also similar because he was an MP and so on. He went to the US voluntarily >> and he was arrested when he got there.

[00:25:52]>> It's not that drugs on him. He was arrested when he went to the facility.

[00:25:58]>> Which facility? Where did where was the facility?

[00:26:00]>> But she's not a politically exposed person.

[00:26:02]>> No, no, no. Not even for the No.

[00:26:06]Amatanti was an amate was an MP.

[00:26:09]>> Yes.

[00:26:09]>> He was a sitting MP at the time when he was arrested as well.

[00:26:12]>> And I even know of another case where there was someone who >> no one was Yuki as well. She was also arrested when she she the plane arrived.

[00:26:22]She was arrested and taken out the flights before even everybody. But not even that alone there was I know another case and this is also um it's not a public figure but when they were in the US they entered they were doing their normal business and then their spouse applied for a visa and then included the fact that this is my spouse. So immediately they made a connection and the US has information that that person was involved in some criminal activity.

[00:26:51]Do you know they revoke the person's visa immediately >> even though they were actually in the US already >> because they know how to make the connections between. So I think even this point was made earlier about Amanda that 22 million is not one person it can't be a one person they just for now they would want you to mention all the other people involved in >> myself I've suffered that before have you >> yeah because in 2015 >> 2014 2015 was not no arrested arrested arrested I was actually denied visas Because my wife was working for a senior Pentagon analyst.

[00:27:34]>> Aha. So they they know how to connect.

[00:27:36]>> So I was denied visa three times >> that you didn't understand.

[00:27:41]>> I was fighting it.

[00:27:43]>> Why you attempting to tell his story?

[00:27:45]It's his story.

[00:27:46]>> When when they are denying certain things, they'll tell you that they have the right to refuse.

[00:27:51]>> Have a visa. details of my >> No, it was when the foreign ministry in 2016 wrote to them that you are denying this government official on a service passport.

[00:28:00]>> Yes.

[00:28:01]>> Okay. Then >> where my spouse my spouse name came in that my spouse is there. What? What?

[00:28:07]What?

[00:28:10]>> I think always knows but have you learned that? The ending is that they thought he wouldn't come back because when they look at him is working is working there. So why would they deny you?

[00:28:23]>> I didn't even see that coming up with this case. I think it's very unfortunate. It's a bad reputation for us as a country because if we have such happenings that your MP can just be arrested outside, I don't think it's good image for this country especially in where he was arrested. He wanted he was wanted by the US officials. I don't know whether he's in US now.

[00:28:49]>> No, his lawyers have said that they're going to fight the extradition.

[00:28:53]>> Not even US.

[00:28:56]>> They'll fight it.

[00:28:57]>> Yeah, he was definitely they'll fight it.

[00:28:59]>> Lawyers are fighting.

[00:29:00]>> For this to happen to us, I don't think it's good. And that brings us to the point where I stated earlier on that I think even after we get some of our people or our MPs elected like they do for the ministers there should be a background check >> okay >> to see whether some of these things that or things you've done in the past whether it will go against us because if you are not careful we'll get people coming from outside they coming naturalizing >> the double passport issues with the Adamus like >> all these things you see we will get people coming from having enough money spreading it across becoming MPs and maybe their background will be questionable so we need to do an extra job I think parliament should add it to the when I am I was employed first >> should parliament do it or electoral commission >> parliament in collaboration with electoral commission and the national investigation bureau >> okay >> but even that can be political criticized because you could want to change the numbers.

[00:30:05]>> That's where the danger is. So you say by the way once you get into parliament into parliament >> you see when they give you the parliamentary form they should state it there and that is how we should look at pro progressing in life. They should state it there that you elected doesn't mean that they can't do background checks on you and if they find anything faulty first they'll inform you >> they will get every necessary this thing and if it needs to be revoked you will be revoked they should let you know as you already know but the question is what is the other thing is that it's about let's take a step back okay >> this thing has happened in the truth is that can happen even in Ghana let's be clear I think that's what MF was asking earlier, there's no immunity from crime even in Ghana when you an MP.

[00:30:54]>> Mhm.

[00:30:54]>> We've had many cases where MPs have been prosecuted before.

[00:30:57]>> Yeah.

[00:30:58]>> The only limitations are dealing with how they when they on their way to parliament and so on when they are arrest related to that. But you can even be invited placed under arrest and the charges will be filed. We've had many cases. In fact, for example, the there are two forcing case. He was a city MP when the case was going on. We've had you know Mama's case. We had many even recently uh um under the oral there was you know a number of you know investig and all of that. So >> when it comes to crime there's no immunity either in your own jurisdiction and our jurisdiction. So yeah, so that one we have to be be be very particular about it. And that's why I'm saying the the the approach that will be adopted may be based on every specific case and what challenges they anticipate and so on and so forth because we this same US government has made requests to Ghana for extradition.

[00:31:50]>> Now they are using our approach in this instance as well. So we have to beh we have to >> so final question on this though. So if he's not extradited from the Netherlands to the US, he won't be charged. He can't be charged. Will he be charged?

[00:32:05]>> He can still be charged and charged in absentia because the reason is because >> when he's now that he's in the Netherlands, he's been arrested there.

[00:32:11]>> He will fight his extradition based on Netherlands law. So let's say he's successful in fighting extradition and >> court agrees that he cannot be extradited.

[00:32:19]>> So he can come back to Ghana. Oh okay.

[00:32:21]Yes, you come back to Ghana. But it doesn't mean that the No, but but let's land. It doesn't mean that the US will not still go ahead with the prosecution.

[00:32:28]>> They can still make Yes. Because you see >> but you've been calling for trial of the same US can do that regardless of the fact that you are not even in the judic >> I have another question as well will be what happens to a seat does it become vacant after >> it's a question I've been asking I think it could take a year or one no after 15 cities right so the 15 cities is that's the standard rule in parliament parliament >> but of course yes you the the speaker can of course grant exit that's so for example assuming an MP sick for more than 15 sit doesn't mean you lose your seats >> it is based on getting a >> in fact the Rick Martin case it didn't I think it traveled a little over a year >> it took it took case took a while so it's about whether in this particular case I'm sure through his lawyers he will make a request for >> so final question really America has this policy leave no one behind Leave no man behind. But that's what I do. Well, true though. But even so, their citizens it may not be accept they cannot they won't say clearly that leave no citizen behind. But you see America protect their citizens like when you get to the airport a Ghanaian who is even an American citizen have a passport you see that this quite like when co came. But that's exactly why I was bringing up the point that moving forward it might mean we look at how we extradite in general.

[00:34:00]Yeah. in terms of if even Sierra Leon which has less of a negotiation um you know cards on the table with America >> does not extradite that easily >> and ensures that there are extra steps even if there is a treaty >> the attorney general will have to rubber stamp that and then they go through a long court process and then if there's no extradition treaty like I think um Belgium or Netherlands is finding with Seroon right now they're trying to get a a drug pin out um they they're not they they don't do it very easily.

[00:34:32]>> Okay.

[00:34:33]>> Sort of thing.

[00:34:34]>> So I'm not condemning any form of crime in any way. But could Iok or any of these investigative bodies say that you're a diplomat? We have seen that you're you're like you're coming to travel. Don't go. Don't go. Don't go.

[00:34:46]Don't go. Like they can't see that at all.

[00:34:50]>> It's the fact that you are burning before you laugh about one. Yog is supposed to be fighting.

[00:34:56]I say that. I'm saying that that principle of >> no one adding on this case I'll give you a clear example when the former bust MD was traveling he was never told that he was on red alert so he shouldn't travel >> he was never told >> he was never told you he got to the airport and they came to arrest him no you're not supposed to travel no it's not that it's not that you're not supposed to travel what happened on red alert >> so let's say in Ghana the street let's say Yoko is investigating you >> they can do the investigation without talking to you in the beginning. They want to get a lot of background information, >> but they also know that they have enough maybe to to proceed, but they're still waiting for a few more details.

[00:35:37]>> Then they will notify Ghana Immigration Service and put you on the no-fly >> so that in the event that you want to leave before they are ready, you'll be stopped. I know somebody >> because wouldn't it be better if he was held at the airport by immigration by his own that one is in Ghana's money?

[00:35:54]It's American money. No, no, It's not about money. It's it's about who is giving the alert. So for example, I had a client once who was going for a conference in South Africa.

[00:36:03]>> He didn't know anything. Just an ordinary Ghana. He wasn't even a political figure or anything. When he go to the airport, they told him he's on the no-fly. And then they arrested him because they arrest you. Actually, I'm not just going to >> say you're not you're on a no-fly list.

[00:36:16]So go cuff you.

[00:36:16]>> They'll cuff you. They took him. When we went, what was the issue?

[00:36:19]>> Apparently many years ago, he formed a company with some foreign nationals, Indians. He was a director. They registered and then they had GRA registration. Apparently at GR that company hadn't paid taxes for years and they had gone through the process and they were trying to deal with them. He had left as a a director but on the records at GR he was a director. That's why he was on a no-fly when we went into it. We just the next day went to office of register of campaign. We got a new profile. His name was not on it. We sent it. He was released. That's how you can easily be on the no file list because any of the institutions that have any um >> where they have crimes post potential crimes prosecuto they can all of them notify you but on the finally we can the actual fact is because the US didn't communicate this to yoko that listen this person is under investigation they're not obliged you want to arrest him are they obliged they not they not obliged and >> but how does this look like for the whole oral um campaign because if oral is centered on um crime fighting and you know particularly financial and economic crimes etc etc. >> Moral is crime.

[00:37:29]>> How will this look? But this man is every resource >> to get this man back without being questioned by US authorities or answering the question of did you or did you not etc. You know what I mean? I think Ghana is going to have a mirror.

[00:37:46]Ghana is going to have a mirror on its face.

[00:37:47]>> Let me help you on that. We are you >> if we say you have caused financial loss to the state mostly it's about GOG funding.

[00:37:56]>> No but it's about we don't normally go after the funding. No we don't investigate.

[00:38:01]>> No but this is also about crime. If Ghana is so keen on fighting crime why can it not allow its own?

[00:38:09]>> So we are not fighting. We are not fighting. We are dealing with the diplomatic courtesies and some of the issues that listen you could have informed us.

[00:38:17]>> Yes. So why did you need to inform us?

[00:38:19]Yes, I know.

[00:38:19]>> Why did you have to go and pluck an MP just as if he's an ordinary person? So those are the things being dealt with.

[00:38:26]>> So should he return and he doesn't have to answer that. It would also mean that every MP, every council of states person is blanketly protected. Okay.

[00:38:37]>> That nobody has a right to go after them.

[00:38:40]>> That's what I'm saying that Ghana is to go down the route that we are thinking where they are going to say it should.

[00:38:46]No. Do you mean this?

[00:38:47]>> We'll go through the process.

[00:38:48]>> Okay. So, um Alfred, you were quite concerned about your light.

[00:38:53]>> Yeah. Before we get there, >> you're not concerned anymore.

[00:38:55]>> No, I'm very concerned.

[00:38:56]>> I'm concerned about issues from people who told you. Are you have you got some respons but I'm telling you that I I can I can confirm that area on what about the hand >> and you see that is the same concern NP has been raising >> that you know you can invite people to Yoko and wherever you want but this arbitrary hand coffee when you meet people that oh you are wanted so we are handcuffing you you don't think it's right when you think it's not right for the MP >> in what circumstances would a police cough you in what circumstance would a police cough you >> in what circumstance will a Let me have it. Let me have it. Let me have it. Let me have let me have it. When when you have to be placed on arrest >> legally, if you don't if they don't do it properly, you can even be challenged.

[00:39:43]So even if you voluntarily go to the police station when they put when they put the handcuff shows that you see in law in law that is how that is how that is. You have to show that you have put the person under arrest legally. Otherwise, >> under arrest, you can you can go to counterback.

[00:40:03]>> No, that is that is you won't see anybody drinking cocoa as counterbag before.