Lightbringer’s synthesis of classical archetypes transforms Sansa’s survival arc into a sophisticated study of mythological tragedy. It is a rare piece of content that treats fantasy with the rigorous literary depth usually reserved for the classics.
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King's Landing in TWOW, Medusansa Redux, QnA, & more! Westeros TalkAdded:
[music] [music] [music] Hey there friends. Hey there friends.
Welcome to Westeros Talk, the newest talk show that is burning up the airwaves throughout all of the Weirwood net. That's right. You are here for episode one. [music] I will be joined by my good friend Hero with a thousand voices and we're going to talk about some fun stuff. We're going to talk about the coming chaos in King's Landing Grayscale and who's going to blow up the Sept of Balo or maybe the whole city. We're going to talk about the Medusansa some more because there's more meat on the bone with the Sansa Pphanie parallel and the Sansa Medusa parallel. So, we're going to get into that stuff.
>> [music] >> We're going to take some questions from you guys. And since it is 4:19, April 19th, we're just one day away from 420.
You know, we're going to play a little game. Oh, yes.
Look at that fuse stone fortress, man.
That thing is mysterious. Who built that? Hey Sean, how's it going, homie?
>> Oh gosh, you're muted. We've started off.
>> The guest has muted themselves. Are you the guest? That's you.
>> I just I wanted those bingo cards to get started strong.
>> Bing. Yes, the drinking game's off to a good start.
[sighs] >> From Europe. It is 420 in certain places. Oh, okay.
>> That works. That works. Greetings to the late night Europe crowd.
Hey there, friends. Hey there, friends.
So, yeah, we are doing something a little different. We've got segments and uh we're just testing this out, hoping to get it going in the future. But thank you for joining us. We want this to be highly inter it will be highly interactive. I'm in charge. I can make it interactive. So yeah, we will take questions from you. We took some questions from our discord. Of course, if you would like to join our discord, there's two easy ways to do that. You can join as YouTube channel member squisher, which gives you some green icon action in the chat and one free super chat-l like message per month.
That'll get you access to the Discord.
Or if you really want to support the program, Patreon, of course, is the way to go and you'll get a link there. And the Discord is a fun place to hang out and talk and all that. When do the contestants get slimed? Great ways Tim.
Hey there, Tim. Tim's in the chat, everyone.
>> I got slimed. Yeah. No, this there's I don't know about [clears throat] the only slime is from Praising Gar. So, uh >> I mean back in the day I got slimed.
>> What's that now?
>> I got slimed. I I was on like a little Nickelodeon thing at Universal Studios and they slimed me.
>> There you go. There you go. There you go, Tim.
>> Always always something. All right. So, you've been squished. Yeah, that's that's that is some sort of squisher treatment. If you really want to get slimed, hang out down by the water.
It'll happen. Um, that's the moral of the story. And speaking of squishers, I do have a giant First Men explained the true history of the First Men video coming. And, you know, the true history of the First Men's going to involve the Deep Ones and all that stuff. So, they're in there. Uh, that's going to be I I've been saying 90 minutes to myself.
I think it's going to be more than that.
It's tipping the scale. It's a hefty boy. So, uh, yeah. Um, thank you very much everyone for watching my recent videos. We did one about John Khan's grayscale epidemic and also about Sansa and the foreshadowing of her offing Peter Beish. And so, we are going to start today with some follow-up talk on both of those things. Both because Shawn has a little extra something to bring and because I am sort of responding to some of the comments on the video and what you guys are interested in. And so, yeah, Sean, first of all, Medusa, let's start with Sansa and the Medusa, cuz you were telling me that, you know, there's a whole thing about women getting blamed essentially for being assaulted by men that we see in Sansa's plot that probably comes from the Medusa story. So, why don't you lay out the the Medusa thing and uh cue people into this little bit of the folklore?
>> Uh, we'll do. Real quick though, I I am going to just uh >> uh promo my I just came out with a Patreon video real quick. Um >> I'm sorry. I'm being a bad host, Sean. I promo my stuff and then I just started.
It's It's really embarrassing. Um I'm trying to get better at this. I do appreciate you. Uh yes. What are you working on, Sean?
>> No, you're good. Um I just uh I'm very proud of a Patreon video I put out. It's so in in the way that my last YouTube video was kind of just giving the foundations of King Arthur so that I could then go into some deeper dives and the audience would follow. I did the same kind of thing with the Greek gods.
So I kind of went into the basis in Mike and Greek uh culture, history, a little bit of mythology, that kind of stuff.
Just kind of explaining how stuff got weird. And uh so that is out. That's on my Patreon. And I am going to be filming in the next couple days here. I'm going to be filming uh my next King Arthur video. Uh I've got King Arthur uh Gane in the Green Knight and specifically why it was something that Tolken latched on to when he otherwise hated the King Arthur lore. Um so that's uh and it it was I was really uh very much changed my plan for the video as I researched. So that was that was good. I like whenever I learn that much that I have to change.
>> So, a couple of days ago, me was aware of what you've been working on and was thinking to ask you about potential Arthurian uh themes or plot lines in Sansa's story because it it feels like it has some of that going on.
>> Absolutely. So, um and it and it very much feeds into what we're talking about here. First off, Peter Beish is a huge Lancelot figure. Um, and that's that's something there are a lot of Lancelot figures. Obviously, when George names a character Lancel Lannister when he has an entire house called Lannister who repeatedly cuckled people whose house was maybe formed on the basis of cuckoldry.
Lancelot.
>> Shout out Lan the Clever. Yes, absolutely.
>> Okay.
>> Rhaegar has Rhaegar has some Lancelot in him. you know, he he takes somebody else's betrothed to a tower and hides.
That is what Lancelot does. He takes uh Gwyne to the uh joyous guard castle and instead Rhaegar takes him to tower of joy. So we we see >> that's that's the lampshade is is the tower of joyous regard, right? Even I know that >> right.
>> But yeah, I would appreciate if you could source some of that out. It is always like there's also Tristan and what's her name? interested in. Yeah.
>> Okay. And that's a similar in a tower kind of a thing, right?
>> Yeah. And it's the same tower. Uh so, uh it it's like a a Russian doll thing because uh Lancelot ends up sheltering Tristan and he sold at Joyous Guard. But then, you know, in the later Arthurian authors, they they basically they don't like Lancelot in the adultery as much as the French did. So, uh, they ended up, uh, >> yeah, they ended up making, you know, all of his adultery and the and the bad stuff that he was doing, basically, he saw consequences for it. And Joyous guard reverted back to dollar guard, which is, you know, we see some dollar stuff going on. It's also an Arthurian thing. Doorus Ed is doing some Arththeran stuff. Um, but yes, Peter Beish is a huge Lancelot figure uh as a cuckled who abducts a woman, takes her off to the Eerie. It's it's a lot like and it's his castle to be specific and [clears throat] Doorus Guard that becomes Joyous Guard.
>> That is Lancelot's castle. He finds out that he's a secret prince and it is his castle. So, um, >> okay. So, this makes a lot of sense to me because what George is doing is he's showing he's like Sansa's whole a lot of the surface level Sansa analysis is like, oh, she believes in fairy tales and she's finding out that all the knights are really monsters and the prince is a monster and all this stuff and she's having her illusion shattered, but the fairy tales are actually pretty dark when you get into them. And so what George has done is he has roped her into this little corner of Arththerian mythology and her Lancelot is like this Peter Beish guy and it's just really creepy. Well, and her big focus on songs and turnies as you know displays of chivalry and you know just like the songs all that um that's also very Arththeran. There's another Arthurian story where um wherewe asks Lancelot to purposefully lose in a tournament and he's losing and and then all of a sudden she's like no I can't be with the loser. So she tells him to win and he wins and and he has to come up and like uh he won on her behalf. So, it's kind of like the crowning a queen of love and beauty and he comes up and like super awkwardly hugs her in front of a crowd and yeah, it it's it's very um turnney of Harrenhal and then there's a lot of that in in Sansa as well where she's trying to be crowned the queen of love and beauty by Loris but Loris is gay and then uh also of course there is no real queen of love and beauty because the turnney ends in such a disaster. Uh so it's um >> yeah the the whole thing it yeah it's it's messy Arththeran. Um >> and then of course the idea of courtly love as Jeff is saying in the chat supposed to be a chase romantic pining for a love that can't be. There is a weird version of that with Sansa and the Hound where like you know Sansa remembers that she was kissed when she wasn't. there's, you know, he's sort of it it seems to mostly come from him being the only one to protect her when she's being abused and stuff. And so she's 13 and eventually in her mind turns into a, you know, he's my protector little slight. It's romantic, but not really, you know. I think that's what George is going for there. Like >> um they could come back around with the plot, but I don't think it's going to come back around as a romantic kind of thing. It' be more like Sandor replaces Sansa's wolf as her sworn shield or something like that, right?
>> That that was one of the takes you had where I was just like uh that's Yeah, I feel like I should have just known that.
Like that just makes so much sense. Um and and yeah, it's really all of her relationships. So you look at like she's pining over a Joffrey that doesn't really exist because she's built him up into oh he's this handsome guy out straight out of the songs. Um then >> actually you're right. So let me pause you there. The chat is keying ill in this too. She's trying so hard to romanticize the terrible thing she's going through. Yearning for her Florian.
She tries it on Dantto. Are you Florian?
She's like nah you're just kind of a drunkard but you do want to help me so I give you a little peck on the cheek.
Joffrey she tries to see as romantic prince charming. Obviously, that doesn't work out. Um, Peter, she doesn't try to do that, but she's sort of sliding into this relationship where he's like a surrogate father and he rescued her. She doesn't realize that he actually framed her and she also doesn't realize that he killed her father. So, those realizations are coming. Um, but yeah, and then we've got, we just read her Winds of Winter chapter where she's now dancing with Harry the Air, and we don't know exactly how she sees him or really what Harry's going to turn out to be.
So, yeah. Well, and and she's not able to really have a romantic relationship with her actual husband, Tyrion, either.
She's not able to have a relationship with the attempted husband of Willis Tyrell. Um, basically like everything is a relationship that cannot be which is part of courtly love except it's George's version. So instead of it being like a mutual pining until they both die of you know broken hearts and love, it's a messed up version of it. So every single relationship is not able to actually be a thing but for usually progressively worse reasons. So, um, yeah, it's it's very it's it's kind of the intersection of Arthurian lore and actual mythology here because you you went a lot into uh Peter as a Titan, like a Titan of Braavos um because of the sigil and that's that's great. Um, and this is something that we were we were talking about on the phone a little bit because George is you can't separate George from his love for TV and movies and the fact that he's written for TV and movies. And one of his absolute favorites is Clash of the Titans.
>> Okay.
>> He's a huge fan of Ray Harryhausen who did a lot of um early special effects before Star Wars and Industrial Light and Magic really revolutionized the space. he was doing claimation type stuff and he made a bunch of mythology based sinbad movies and then he made Clash of the Titans with uh Maggie Smith and a bunch of other people and um it's basically the story of Perseus and and Medusa and the uh the Kraken which is actually not supposed to be there. Um, Kraken is from Norse mythology and uh it was originally supposed to be Cedus who's like a roided out whale Leviathan.
>> Yeah, right. I can see why they right changed that. It went with a different mythological sea monster that worked better on Yeah, that makes sense. Also, you can't tell the Kraken where it's supposed to be. Tim or Sean.
>> Yeah, that's >> I'm looking at Tim in the chat.
>> Tim's in the chat. I'm risking a lot.
>> Tim knows. You can't tell after me. So, my parents actually used to call me the Kraken because I had this habit of pulling the knobs off the stereo, which was a big like a tower thing back in those days, and I would try to climb it and uh they I got nicknamed the Kraken.
So, I just remembered that actually. It was like a deeply buried memory. Okay.
>> Squeaker.
>> Krakens are deeply buried uh under the ocean like Cthulhu. So, but okay.
Someone in the in our Discord has a question that fits with what you were just saying.
Okay, >> based on the turnney of Asheford theory, which is essentially that Sansa will have these series of suitors that match up with the people on Dunk's trial by seven. And it seems to line up.
Um, the question is, do we see Sansa getting into a marriage alliance with Fegon or Jon at some point? Because they both could represent that seventh person. I could see situations in which either is possible. Um, I can see Littlefinger aiming for an alliance to make Sans a queen. And I think that's the main thing for Jon. I can see a partnership similar to the show, but with Jon having to marry his cousin after his parentage is revealed to combine their claims to the north. So, I don't think there'll be a Sansa John type thing in the books. I really just don't see that. Um, but the Fagon thing, I I do think that's coming. What are your thoughts?
Hm.
I I'm wondering what mechanism Sansa and Fegon could even meet under because uh personally I think that uh Fegon is going to he's going to take over King's Landing. I think that's pretty heavily foreshadowed.
I think he's going to die there. So, how does Sansa get to King's Landing?
And I mean, she got there in the show, but that was so contrived. So, I think it would be more like a plot device that would affect Peter and Sansa's plotting for a time. I don't know that they'll make it to King's Landing, but it might cause Peter to like, "Oh, let's switch horses. Let's ditch Harry the heir and off him and like, you know, Mary betro you to because the whole point is she's betrothed to Harry as Littlefinger's bastard." They're planning on unveiling her as Sansa Stark and basically showing her as the ruler of the Veil and the North. and that's somebody who could marry Feon. So, they would need to like go through with that part of the plot.
And Fegon's not in King's Landing yet.
So, it could line up to where there's a certain point in time where it seems like an obvious match. But, will it actually will Sansa get to King's Landing and Mary? Pro, you know, that may not happen. I guess I could see the idea of like Peter keeps making these alliances and then burning the bridge behind him. So like he used John uh you know uh John Aaron of the veil obviously he got a lot of career advancement out of essentially working for him which Liza obviously helped with then he marries Liza and becomes the lord of the veil and immediately offs her and obviously he's ruling through his son as lord protector but he's ruling and and the son isn't always going to be there so he's now working on the next alliance which he may then burn down behind him. So he has Sansa marry Harry the air after you know Sweet Robin is dead or maybe before Sweet Robin is dead.
Could he then change up his plot and make another alliance? Yeah, he does that all the time. He did that with the Tyrells. He did that with everyone.
>> So I was thinking of the fire mage in Karth. He climbs the fiery ladder. It disappears behind him and then he vanishes the top. So it's like the ladder of chaos that Peter's climbing.
It's not stable. Yeah. The rungs are constantly breaking from under you. So that's true. And so thanks to Claire for that question.
And I yeah, I really think that it's it's even without it actually coming true, it's going to work as far as political mass. Man, look at that water bottle. Show that thing off. What is that?
>> Oh, it's uh it's uh from Coco. You know, Disney, I just >> remember, >> we we do.
A lot of people think Sansa's ultimate fate lies in political marriage, but I have a bit more hope for an eventual brighter future. Do you think she'll ever escape this patriarchal system that has abused her so much? That's from Dishonor in the Discord. And I was saying if she she'd need to step through a portal to you know my house or something like Rhaegar did to the real world. I don't know how else to escape Westerro's patriarchy without a portal.
Um but I think the question should be will she continue to gain agency and get to the point where she is not a pawn but a player. And it does seem that that is her eventual arc. And the offing of Peter is where that happens because she's essentially letting Peter set her up to have all this power and then at the right moment she can expose him or he will be exposed. He falls and then she's left standing. So that's something like that, right?
Yeah. Um she is she is getting smarter.
I I think uh she's learning what she should and shouldn't say, what she should and shouldn't reveal, playing things closer to the chest. Um and she has a certain, you know, wideeyed lack of understanding in certain situations, like she does not understand yet that Liza and Peter are the ones who conspired to have her family killed. and she didn't get it when Liza was spouting exposition about it. But now she she's working with her friend um Miranda Royce and in those sample chapters you see the wheels turning. She is playing a more complicated game. She is starting to become a player instead of a pawn. She's still like you said very much, you know, uh subservient to Peter in this game, but it's not going to stay that way. She is coming into her own and we're watching her, you know, climb.
>> I think that she heard a lot of stuff that she didn't process because the trauma of that moment of almost getting thrown out like off the ledge. Like she's basically in shock when all that's happening. So I think there's a good chance she will start to process some of that later as she gets little clues and she kind of has the pieces to put it together. So all be all the spice you need. Sansa ice spice.
>> Well, >> Tim Tim thought of good jokes from last week that he didn't get off and he's coming back with him. So that's good. We appreciate that, Tim.
>> I'm all in the chat. Um, but yeah, that that whole scene that you're talking about, that is a Medusa scene. That is a Clash of the Titans scene. That is very much uh taken straight out of Greek mythology. We were talking about it as like a uh Lancelot, you know, willing abduction of Gwyavir off to his castle, which the Erie isn't his castle, but first he takes her to the fingers. But there's a Medusa element of this, too, because if you look at the original Medusa story, there are a few versions of it. Um, and in one version, Medusa is, you know, kind of a girlfriend of Poseidon, but in other versions, Medusa is a very unwilling participant in um, I won't say romantic relations with Poseidon, but yeah, he he assaults her and he does it at a temple of Athena.
And that's super super problematic. Not just because uh Athena would be offended, but Athena is a goddess who is chased and so she's very offended by all this, but she can't actually punish Poseidon. So, she punishes Medusa >> who did >> nothing wrong in this situation.
And uh even in the situations where you know maybe she was sleeping with Poseidon willingly that still seems like you are way overreacting punishing one party to another because they turn her into a monster who people can't even look at. She turns people to stone and obviously that kills them but there's also you know when you turn people to stone like a stone statue or whatever that is you know metaphorical death anyway.
So, she is a scaly lizard monster thing, snake monster thing, carrying Poseidon's babies and often very unwillingly. And she's the one punished in all this. And not just her, but her two sisters.
That's that's also even more messed up.
Um, Uriel and I forget the other sister, but um, >> they become the Gorgans. And >> yeah, a minute ago you said, what did you say? I think you meant very attractive lady. And you said something about monstrous and I >> Well, she she was a very attractive lady. She caught Poseidon's eye, but she's probably not she's meant to not be super attractive anymore after she's turned into a snake monster.
>> What do you have against, you know, certain hairstyles and stuff? This sounds like uh like some sort of bigotry or something. I don't know.
When when when artists reimagine it and more modern movies reimagine Medusa, they always make her super hot but with weird snakes in her head. So, it's it is what it is.
>> You see, to your point, it is supposed to be Yeah, we get the point. It's a punishment. Um, >> but that's kind of the thing.
>> Sounds cool. I'd say it sounds cool, but >> it Well, it is it is objectively cool, but it's not something we'd want happening to us or anyone we like.
>> Probably not. No. It' be harder to make friends.
Yeah. Um and and that's what Peter does is he abducts her. He takes her to the Eerie, which is basically like a snow temple. Um and in the and and he forces himself on her. He kisses her, you know, on standing on top of her little castle, Winterfell model. And um unfortunately, Liza sees it. And this is, you know, Liza's castle, the Aries.
So, this is kind of like being in Athena's temple and she doesn't punish Peter.
>> And they're in the God's wood, too, mind you. They're in the God'swood and Lysa is looking down from the balcony as if she is like a go, you know, think of the I I forget which uh old movie it is, but you know, with the I think it's the one with Perseus where the gods are looking into the pool and they can see what's going on on Earth in the pool.
>> Yes. That So, that is that's Clash of the Titans. That's what we were talking about. Um, and uh, yeah, so that's, you know, we have a, it was Thetus in Clash of the Titans, who's a very important nymph, but uh, the details of the myth kind of get jumbled around in the movie.
But the point is is George likes both the myth and the movie.
>> Um, big fan of the style, >> right? Um, >> he loves pulpy, you know, campy stuff as well as the classics. Yeah.
>> So, it's a godswood. It's a castle. The castle is a lot like an ice temple. You get major other vibes. She is like an other queen st ice queen standing up on top of her castle looking down and sees this and she tries to kill Sansa about it. She's about to drop her out the moon door which is a stone door. It's like uh petrifiedwood. So it's like a stone door. So it's like you know killing her with the stone door is a lot like turning her to stone. Um you know doing the whole Gorgon thing. Um You become you become a little smear on the stone of the giant's lance when when they when they push you out. That's the language that's used.
>> Oh yeah. A a bloody lance is a good lance. But um anyway, uh yeah, she uh she calls her a little snake, too. You know, like conspiring to go after my man, you little snake. Um but yeah, it's it's all very Medusa coded. Sansa didn't do anything wrong. She's confused about what's going on. She is stuck in a power struggle between two powerful people that she didn't choose to be a part of.
It's all very Medusa.
>> Yeah, it's a very very strong correlation. So, I really appreciate you bringing that because, you know, I did the again the basic level and I was like, "Oh, snakes in her hair. It's Medusa. Medus Sansa. Aren't I clever?"
But, of course, it does go further. Um, so yeah, I really appreciate you teasing that out. And that's This is interesting because now it's not just symbolism.
really getting into the guts of her plot, of the way that she is used as a pawn, the way she is assaulted by men uh by the system. Peter, you know, rescues her from Joffrey only to do the same thing in a less violent version. But he's still he's using um um what's the word when you not manipulation but um coercion as opposed to like physical assault but it it amounts to the same type of thing. So yeah. Well and and here's like more cooking of the noodle.
Like Athena is the chased goddess here and Liza has the hardest time having you know like live healthy babies and she's got sweet Robin but there there's an a definite theme of lack of fertility on her especially after you know she was forced to drink the moon tea um and and Athena she doesn't take on romantic partners as well as being chased but she does get hyperfocuses on very intelligent figures in Greek mythology. Odysius is the most obvious one. And Peter is jerk Odysius.
Like he is he sails back and forth across the narrow sea a lot.
[clears throat] It's a jerk version of everything. So when but going back to the to the Medusa thing, it's interesting the way that George is able to harmonize a story like that with the story of Theazi and Idun, right? because it's like, okay, so Peter's also a bird and he's a giant like the yotun. Uh, and he is abducting her to an ice castle and he gets the chestnut reference in there.
So, it seems like this is the way I always try to explain it to people as far as, you know, how to write like George Martin is that you have to see the similar themes in different myths and see where they jive together. So you could say, "Oh, if I'm writing about a flaming sword, then I've got to talk about the flaming sword in the Garden of Eden, but also Excalibur and also Thunder." And he sort of borrows the ideas and makes his own mishmash. But you could do that with themes as well as just something as obvious as a magic sword, like themes about abduction. And so we get Pphanie, we get Idun, and we get Medusa. And so basically George is collecting these myths with similar themes and parsing out the symbols to these characters. So that's why it's never like um you know like the one like there's only if you just take one myth and base your Sansa character on just one myth and it's like you figure it out and then that's it. But by and and it seems almost like a copy. But by sort of showing his mastery of the theme and exploring these themes and these related myths and then synthesizing them now we're creating something new that gives respect to everything else and we're doing it through the most important part which is the theme as opposed to just snakes in your hair which is fun but yeah.
>> Yeah. Well and it it just it shows such a complete understanding of these stories. The stories are not complicated. You know, for most of these, you could basically summarize the story of Perseus and Medusa in a good three minute quick explanation. The esoterica is what's important. When you isolate the elements that are common to all of the stories, you notice why they say certain things. You know, Zeus having, you know, relations with everybody. Uh, it's a storm god thing.
It's about f fertility. He's fertilizing the crops. It's about the seasons. It's about the natural world. Yes, he's anthropomorphic, but no, he's not just slinging seed everywhere. Like, this is a there's a reason for it and it's below the surface. So, George really >> Robert, just to just to draw out the obvious parallel, Robert has a bunch of bastards. Yeah, he's he's a very fertile storm god, but he doesn't he's capriccious, you know, he he fertilizes and moves on.
Sorry, that's kind of crude, but obviously he didn't take care of uh the woman in the brothel in King's Landing who's named her child Barah after Robert Baratheon. Oh, he's going to come for me. He said he loves me. And it's like, no, he doesn't. He's moved on like a cloud.
>> That's some of my uh corroborating evidence for the Baratheonss are meant to be rose gods. Um because Barra means roses and she's a little redhead named Rose. And and of course, Robert's always chasing after his blue rose. um Lyanna and and he ends up getting with a Florent who have the blue rose and he names the kid Ned. So uh it's yeah a lot of um or sorry that's actually is that Ned who's the uh who's the kid at Storm's End.
>> Uh well he's Edric um Storm >> Edric right the same name variant tree >> right >> cuz Edric Dne's named after Ned Ed, close enough. It's all Elrich stuff anyway. Anyway, >> but yeah, the Panie stuff is super interesting because George is aware of kind of the history of Praphanany. We've made her into less and it's it's largely thanks to the Romans.
>> Okay. I'd like to hear about this. Well, so we there's Pphanie and her her Roman version prurine in her Roman. So the Romans in the Atruscans and all those groups that were on the Italian peninsula, they had their own gods before the Greek gods got there. The Greeks made a bunch of outposts and the gods kind of got jumbled together. So they had a god named Pluto who was a lot like Neptune, but he had slightly different connotations and they kind of jumbled them together. and then there's a separate god that's kind of an offshoot.
It got very confused is the point, but they jumbled a bunch of gods together.
Um, and and the Greek versions ended up having a lot more weight culturally. So, they feel like the Greek gods with new names, but there is there is a certain amount of the existing Ruskin and and everywhere else on the peninsula gods that made their way into that. So, that's Prourpeen. She's a jumble of Pphanie and a spring goddess. And the thing is Pphanie was not a spring goddess. You know, we we tend to think we look at the Roman >> esoteric. That's the spring goddess, right?
>> Kind of. Yeah. I mean, she's the goddess of the harvest. So, you know, what caus it? When do we know spring happens is when the harvest comes. And so, Deer stops the harvest from going and keeps the land in perpetual winter because >> you actually solve this for me. Is it de meter or demiter? Cuz there's a there's a music company that makes compressors and bass amps and stuff and they say demiter, but it it is demeter, isn't it?
>> I don't know.
>> You don't know. I'm I'm the wrong person to ask. Uh I look at all these words, but I'm I'm doing it at like 2 in the morning with no volume on and I'm just like read. But anyway, yeah. Um >> yeah, so Demiter keeps the winter going because she's sad that Pphanie got taken away. It's not Pphanany who causes it, but um we've kind of synretized her into a spring goddess. And in an esoteric sense, it makes sense. You have Zeus, the fertile storm god, who reigns on the crops and fertilizes them, and the crops come. So their child, Zeus and Demiter, Demeter's child is Pphanie, the spring, because that's what happens at the, you know, when those two things meet. So that makes sense. But the thing is is Pphanie was not a spring goddess. She was first off you go back to um Homer who wrote the Iliad and the Odyssey and that takes place during Mikean Greece.
So long before what we think of ancient Greece and he refers to her as Dread Pphanany the lady of the underworld.
Like she is the queen of the underworld and she's terrifying and powerful and not to be messed with. And the reason why she's thought of in that way is because she used to be the main goddess.
There used to be kind of a triumvirate between Poseidon, Demiter, and Pphanie or whatever her name used to be. We don't actually know. They only referred to her as the lady because they didn't want to draw her eye in her wrath by saying >> you know somebody is ferocious when you can't say their name. Exactly. Yes.
>> Right. So she was Poseidon's wife and Poseidon was not only the king of the gods, king of the sea, he was the king of the underworld as well. And Demiter was goddess of the harvest but maybe also had like underworld connotations or like she went down to the underworld during the there was it's it's hard to sus out because so much of it is lost but there was kind of a triumvirate of three powerful gods in Poseidon, Demiter and Pphanany. Zeus was a lot less important. But then, you know, the Mike Greece collapsed and there was a big dark age.
>> And when the dust kind of settled, Zeus is now king of the gods. He's taken a lot of pointers from other sky storm gods in in the area. And Poseidon has been demoted, but also his underworld connotations were given to a new god named Hades.
>> And Hades gets Pphanie. And Pphanie is kind of divided into multiple goddesses.
Um there are aspects of what used to be Pphanany in um maybe Seline and Hecati.
>> And they're also talking about Corore.
>> Yeah, Cororey. So that's like a um Isn't that a group like the Cororeay?
>> I think she's a spring goddess.
>> Yeah. So the Cororeay is the maiden figure. They also call her um god what is the name? It just mean uh just means lady. Um anyway uh the point is is she was deemphasized pphanany.
She lost a lot of power and she came down to the underworld as a hostage now instead of a queen. So yes, she's now Hades queen, but she's like a little spring guard goddess in a sad little garden down there. She used to be [clears throat] the most maybe, you know, the most powerful goddess in the mythology.
>> Okay. So, we we we see this really come to life in Sansa's scene in the Godswood. It's a God's wood without gods. Empty just like me. So, she's comparing herself to the empty God'swood. Uh so, yeah, this is like >> a frozen spring. You know, they could and they talk about they couldn't get the weirwood to grow here and stuff like that.
>> Right.
>> Right. cuz it's it's an underworld location. It is meant to be like a temple of the others, the the dead ice gods. And you know, >> she's making others. When she makes the little snowmen, that's code for making others. So, she's doing some sort of Nights Queen routine, making an ice castle, making others.
>> Yes.
>> She she doesn't know it, but she's apprenticed out to Liza Tully to become a uh Knights Queen figure, >> which is going to make her very powerful. Um, the Knights Queen figure is powerful. You know, she takes the seed and soul of Knight's King and creates others. So, she's she's the one running the show there. Yeah. I mean, we see it in the reverse of it. We see Melisandre is extraordinarily powerful.
She's the fiery version of it, but she is a Nights Queen figure, and Stannis only has political power over her. He is not, you know, he's just a guy.
>> Yeah. Yep.
>> Maybe he'll drop a dragon blood, but >> t teeny tiny drop. Um, let's see. So, there was a question in the chat about Sansa.
Well, you find it. That was a the the uh the Weirwoods not being able to take root and the Godswood not being a proper God'swood is just like Pphanie's garden in the underworld not really being a proper spring garden because it gets no light.
>> Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So that's what it made me think of it. And there's that line about the sunlight in the the high hall of the eerie. Even the sunlight is looks chilly, like it's cold, frozen.
Um, so just shifting over slightly to more of a plot-based thing. This is a really good question. What reasons Ned and Cat had for not prepping Sansa for southern politics, especially her and Arya when they went to King's Landing.
Um, I have always blamed this on Ned having PTSD and essentially just trying to haul up at Winterfell and just pretend that all that nasty stuff in King's Landing doesn't exist and isn't going to pull his family in because he lost his sister and his brother and his father to that stuff. I mean, that's the easy answer, right?
>> Yeah. And I mean, it's certainly less traumatic for Liza Tully, but she was promised to one of the most powerful lords in the realm, the heir to the north, and he just gets murdered going down to King's Landing. Um, there's a whole war. People are dying. People, you know, she would have known people that died in the war. Ned is a lot closer to it. A lot of his best friends, damn near his whole family, like, yeah, they they don't want to go anywhere near that.
>> That's true. His best all died in that war as well, >> right? And it's different in the show, which is which is why we kind of get distracted. But in the books, it's it's uh Catelyn who kind of bullies Ned into going down south because he doesn't he really doesn't want to. He's the one with a lot more trauma surrounding going down to King's Landing.
>> Cat is a bully. That's true. No, you're right though. You're right.
>> Yeah. I didn't I didn't mean to paint her as >> No, you're right. I know. I know. We We love Cat. We don't we don't put up with excessive cat slander. Everyone is open to criticism, but yeah. Yeah. No, you're you're not wrong.
>> She has her deserved slander, but she's the target of a lot of weird sexist focus.
>> We don't have too much of that around here, so we can feel free to level the honest criticism. But yes, it's not even necessarily a mistake to go to King's Landing. Um the problem was that they didn't have intelligence. like they didn't Ned didn't maintain sources in King's Landing. He didn't know what kind of person Joffrey was. If he had had even like one or two good sources in King's Landing, he would have already had an inkling that maybe marrying Sansa to Joffrey is not not a great idea.
Maybe you want to think about Tommen and Arya or something like that, right? So, >> yeah. Well, and even beyond that, they they thought they found their intelligence, but they just they had no idea what game they were playing. Like Catelyn discovers Peter Beish. He's a great source of intelligence. Can you trust him? No. Not even Catelyn can trust him.
>> Yeah. I mean, he's manipulated Liza to deceive Cat. So, that's that's kind of the unfair thing. Like, if your own sister is deceiving you, >> I mean, who who was supposed to see that coming in that circumstance? That's pretty tough.
>> Well, and then Ned inexplicably trusts him to a certain degree, and Ned inexplicably trusts Ferris to a certain degree. And it's just like, why are you going down and trusting all of the people who should be the least trustworthy? And it it's just they're miscalculations. He he is out of his depth. And he's grabbing, you know, any any floating wood in the ocean that he can to not drown. And the floating wood that he finds are these people who aren't trustworthy because they know he's drowning.
>> Yeah. Yeah. And so the Starks come to King's Landing and they just kind of get ambushed. So, let me just stop real quick and remind everyone if you're watching the stream and having fun, do hit the little thumbs up button down there. It helps YouTube know that this is a cool stream that people should watch and all that kind of thing, which it definitely definitely is. Um, so I feel I feel strongly that we're bringing it today, Sean. I feel like we're bringing it.
>> Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. We're We got the deep cuts here.
>> And so, let's see here. Uh, do you think Sansa will have her marriage to Tyrion Anold? asks Undead Eevee and how will that work?
>> I'm asking you. I don't really know. I'm curious about that.
>> I tend to think it will eventually get an one thing that we're going to see when we get into the Winds of Winter is that a lot of big important events are going to happen a lot faster. kind of like at the beginning of the War of the Five Kings, a lot the scenery shifted very quickly. Um, and and that's kind of another thing is like the the war was essentially decided by Peter Beish and in kind of a Trojan horse thing by allying with the Tyrells and we didn't even know that until it had already happened until the battle was already lost. So those kind of, you know, quick cut changes are going to be all over Winds of Winter and Dream of Spring. So I tend to think too much will be going on for that to, you know, for them to leisurely take their, you know, anolment and then set up for another one.
>> I think it'll be a kind of afterthought by the time it happens. I mean, Tyrion's halfway across the ocean. It might be interesting if he comes back with um Danny and then they're like meeting with Sansa at some point and they're like, "Well, technically you guys are married." Like, I don't know. I think I don't think it's going to be a major plot thing, but it'll just be kind of like a funny thing or something small and interesting.
Yeah, >> it could it could come into if Jon and Tyrion talk with each other.
That could be interesting because they already have a friendship and it's like, "Oh, you're married to my sister now somehow." Um, let's see. I want to see everyone's theory of how the remaining Stark children will reunite, who will meet who first, when, where, and if tragedy will happen where none of them ever see each other again. So, I've talked about Thank you, Mamir. Um, I've talked about I think Bran is going to play this role of helping to reunite the Stark siblings. I think there's a lot of foreshadowing for that. I think that there's a risk of Wyman Manderly trying to use Ricken, right, as a way to sort of claim power in the north. Wyman as the steward in the hand. Of course, Wyman got he got cut pretty hard uh just recently at Winterfell. So, we got to make sure he survives first of all. Right.
>> Right. But you know what? I think I don't think he's planning on surviving.
You don't say that [ __ ] in front of people who murdered at the Red Wedding.
You don't say that if it's risky and he's smart enough to know that. He has already put all his plans into motion if he's willing to say that. So, this is more setting things up for his kids who we don't really know if they're, you know, on his level. He's very smart and he plans very far in advance and he's done a lot to really consolidate power for his house. They were set up to really become the second most powerful house in the north and as of right now they're close, you know, behind the Boltons.
>> Um so and and that's despite all the losses that they took during the War of the Five Kings where they were really on the front lines. they had people directly die at the Red Wedding, you know. Anyway, um yeah, I think he's he's gonna try to set all these things in motion, but I think the whole Ricken storyline gets resolved after he's dead.
>> Yeah. So, I was just going to point out he doesn't know about John and Rob's will and you know, John's last he knew he was at the Night's Watch. So, it's not that Wyman is trying, you know, to pit Ricken against anyone else. There's no one else there right now. I'm just saying if he's championing Ricken and then Sansa eventually moves, you know, to take back the North and Jon has an arc that make, you know, leads to him being king of Winter or something like that. There could be a little bit of a confluence there, but I really think that would only be other people trying to pit the Starks against each other. I don't think that'll work. And I think the sort of triumph of the Stark family is that they will remember these bonds and and stick for each other. Um I think there are going to be some things in this story that feel good, you know, and that go right, you know, despite all the adversity and stuff and like people sticking together in the hard times is the kind of stuff that George likes. He likes to stack the deck against the heroes, but the heroes banding together is kind of what it's all about. So, yeah, I feel strongly about that.
>> Well, and I I tend to think that uh first off, I I agree. Um but yeah, I I tend to think it's going to be Jon and Sansa as the first to uh to come back together. But yeah, we kind of saw a version of what you're talking about in the show where Littlefinger tried to directly pit Arya and Sansa against each other and it it was poorly written and it wasn't believable and it was weird like she's just going to murder her because of this. He said, she said >> there was a lot of dumb stuff, but they did get the basic idea right. Like Peter tries to pit the Stark girls against each other and they stick with each other and topple him. Like that part made sense. Yeah.
>> Yeah. And and I mean they will It may not be Peter who pits them against each other. Um I'm not sure Peter is even going to spend much time in Winterfell to do his plotting, but um >> Yeah. No, he'll die soon after he gets there.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I'm really interested in Arya, Bran, Wolfpack teamwork. I think so. When I went deep on the Arya and the Wolfpack stuff a few years ago, it seems to me that Bran has his fingerprints all over that, too. And that it's going to be both of them wolfpacking. And uh, you know, I think that's going to be super cool. Um, that wolf pack is going to be a big deal. It's going to be a big deal in the Winds of Winter. And I think I think Arya like all of her Nimriia symbolism like she literally is going to be a queen. Um and yeah, that's that's that stuff's going to be intense, I think.
>> Well, and I think something that goes under the radar, you've talked about it a little bit before, but Arya is crazy powerful.
>> Yes.
>> Only Bran is more powerful. And that's that's basically provable. Like yes, Jon had his third eye opened by Bran and and he can somewhat intentionally war Ghost.
Um, we don't see that really happening on purpose with Rob or Sansa. Uh, Sansa because her dog is gone, unfortunately.
And Rob because by the time he was having dreams about it that he talks about where he was, you know, in Greywind, he dies soon after. So, with Ricken, we know he's having wolf dreams.
We don't know much about them. With Arya, we know she's having wolf dreams from across the world.
>> We know she's able >> We know she's able to skin change other animals purposefully.
So, she is already doing more than anybody else besides Bran. And she did it without the benefit of a mentor.
>> Yes. And now she's skin changed to cat as well. And she did that while awake.
So she's definitely moving up. And it makes sense because she's been isolated a lot. Like the it's the principle of them the faceless men blinding Arya to encourage her other senses. That is sort of all over her plot. Um because she has she has no support. She's been orphaned. She's been in these horrible horrible horrible places. this like brings out your resilience and you know you just it forces you to dig deep um and you're sort of like the first time she's skin changes her wolf they're fleeing Harrenhal and they're sore pressed her need is very great they're very worried about being caught there's a rainstorm there are people following them and that night she dreams that she's a wolf tearing into her enemies and then the next day they're home free and there's there's nobody following them. So, it's like this stuff responds to need and Arya has been put in these situations of great need. Um, and that has led to her now skin changing a cat and yeah, so she's very strong warg. Um, you know, it may not be the type of thing where like, oh, Arya was born a level eight and Ricken's [snorts] a level six. It's probably just age and experience and stuff like that. Like, you know, Sansa's wolf died. she hasn't been able to develop her skill. Arya has been able to. So, you know, who knows? But >> another thing that's interesting is that when Arya has these wolf dreams, from the very beginning, when she has the wolf dream and she wakes up in the morning, she knows it's true.
>> And that's not true.
>> She kind of does. Yeah, >> that's not true for even Bran at the beginning. He thinks he's just having dreams. It takes him a while to realize he's seeing out of Summer's eyes. She the very first time that you were just talking about, she's she tells uh Gendry and Hot Pie after that, they're not chasing us anymore.
>> Yeah, I vaguely remember that. Thanks for adding that though. I sort of forgot that detail.
>> Yeah. And when she sees her wolf, you know, her wolf pulls her mother's corpse out of the blue fork, she wakes up and she's no longer trying to convince the mountain to go rescue her mother and her brother. She's like, she's dead.
>> Also, that I do remember. Yes. So, she kind of trusts. She knows that that's a level of reality that she's seeing.
>> Yeah.
>> And yeah, the chat's gotten on to King Brand. And I totally agree with your comment here, Mystic Heartache. Bran will be king, but he'll also end up rejecting Blood Raven. It won't become a weird zombie version of himself like the show. Um, rejecting Blood Raven is a complex idea, but he's definitely not going to be a zombie version of himself.
I do think he will eventually download the Weirwood Net Hivemind. So, he will be a kind of god king, you know, in a sense. uh he will have multiple intelligences in his head, but I don't think that'll make him less emotional. That was just something that didn't really make sense to me.
>> Uh that that is how D and D view smart people.
But >> yeah, I guess. Right. And people who are passionate always turned out to be like Danny, right?
>> Yeah. But anyway, yeah, it's he's um he's Summerbrander and and this is something you brought up as far back as the podcast with, you know, his his direwolf being Summer, his name being Bran. Summerbrander. It is the fiery sword of Norse mythology that burns down the nine realms at Ragnarok.
>> Um it is originally Freyer's sword, you know, the god of summer or yeah, the god of summer. He's a god of fertility. He's a green man. He's a very classic, you know, elven fertility, green man figure, summer king. And we see all that in Bran. But what we also see is the other owner of Summerbrander. What ends up happening is Frra lose loses the sword. Another giant steals it. It ends up in the hands of Ser. and Ser being a you know fiery powered giant and having you know this magical fiery sword that's how he burns down the nine realms that's how existence ends so Bran is weaving these two owners of summerbrander together the the villain and the hero right u because Frera fights Ser at Ragnarok and dies because he doesn't have the sword so we we see Bran as both the person you know the summer king who brings brings back the seasons, who brings back, you know, um, ends the long night, but he's also the person who burns it down. So, in in that aspect of him burning it all down, he's going to burn down the word net.
The mechanism for this happening, you're talking about him, you know, downloading it, it's like, yeah, he's downloading it because that mechanism is no longer going to exist for anybody. That power has always historically been perverted to do terrible things. Whether you know you believe that it's the cause of the dragon bond, whether you believe it's the others, you know, all of these things like when you are skin changing things, you're taking away the agency of a person or an animal controlling them.
And that's not good. And it also makes you disproportionately powerful. Allah, you're, you know, w kings and your skin changer kings that you talked about so much. That has to disappear to have a more egalitarian society. And Bran is going to be the one to burn it down.
That's why Hodor carries him around in a wicker basket that used to, you know, wicker being, you know, what you sacrifice. That used to carry firewood.
Yeah. Yeah. That's one of my favorite ones. It's that gives you the wicker wicker man king of winter thing. Uh kind of just spells it out by what we carry firewood in. Uh Grey Waist Tim is piping up that Lovecraft's whisperer in the darkness refers to Bran Mcore, the last king of the pics. And of course, Lovecraft takes real civilizations like the picss and the Egyptians and things and just moves them into his he makes a fantasy world version of them. And Bran Mac faval obviously that's a Welsh hero and there's a version in Irish folklore too. There's lots of brands in all the Celtic folklore and so Lovecraft's version uh Tim's basically summing it up and saying it's more Tree King brand downloading the weird net parallelism.
Uh so yeah.
>> Well, and the picss were like, you know, they they were a group of people in Britain. Uh we actually we talked about them a little bit when we were doing the uh Celtic stream.
>> Yeah. Yeah, >> we did indeed.
And so, uh let's see here. Um Flora and the Fool's asking about Sansa being drunk during a couple of her scenes.
the night of the battle of the Blackwater with the unreliable narrator and the unciss and all that. Yeah, that probably is meant to be a factor because she's obviously 13 and doesn't usually drink. So Cersei was sloshed that night, man.
>> Yeah, that's that's her way though. She absorbed a lot of Robert once Robert left.
>> Yeah. So, let's um we we could come back for more Sansa, but I do want to talk about King's Land. We were talking about burning stuff down. So, >> let's move on to King's Landing for a little bit. Um, and first thing I want to point out is a parallel that Common Era brought up. The Great Sickness in 209 AC. It killed thousands in King's Landing. Uh, where that's the city that had it the worst. Blood Raven burned the bodies with wildfire in the Dragon Pit and this led to a quarter of the entire city burning down. I actually I reread it. I don't know that it's the city caught on fire because the dragon pit was burning, but at the same time that the plague was happening, a quarter of the city did burn down. And so basically, we've got a plague and we've got part of King's Landing burning. And this is before Aries hid wildfire everywhere. Um, so he's pointing this out as a or they are pointing this out as a potential parallel. Um, and yeah, it's right there, isn't it? It's like an epidemic.
Well, and it's perfectly placed because uh so first off, the entire series is named A Song of Ice and Fire. One of the main reasons for it, aside from that being how Norse mythy's creation myth starts, it's a Robert Frost poem about the world ending in either ice or fire.
So when you talk about ice and fire, you have the the spring and the summer is the hot time. So it's fire associated.
You have the spring sickness. stuff catches on fire at a different time in King's Landing.
>> Winter fever a winter they have the shivers. Yeah.
>> Oh, the shivers. Yeah, that's >> So, it's, you know, uh the idea is both are bad, >> right? Like you have your fiery dragon people and they burn stuff down and that's terrifying and it's a power multiplier and you know power is corrupting and all that and and people shouldn't have dragons probably cuz it's terrifying and it does damage but by the same token you know having all that icy othery power and that is also not something that people should have. So we see both given their proper thematic context in King's Landing and Grayscale is symbolically an icy disease cuz it's made to punish the lords of fire and their cold breath rises from the water now because you know those are the vapors that cause grayscale and the grayscale stonemen are pretty obviously like a parallel for the whites >> with the bridge being like the wall and all this stuff. Yeah. Um, so going back to the the spring sickness thing, it's interesting that this is all linked to the dragon pit because the dragon pit when there was a different chaotic scene in King's Landing, that's when the dragon pit got stormed and collapsed and we've been talking about the Sept of Bor and the idea that maybe the show got some version of the burning of the Sept from George. There does seem to be foreshadowing. I'd like to get into basically all the ice temple places have this foreshadowing. Um, but mentioning the dragon pit along with the pandemic here with the uh what was it the spring sickness like we could definitely get a parallel if we get the Sept of Bor burning down while there is a grayscale epidemic in King's Landing.
So that's interesting to me.
Because it's a bunch of dead people, dead sick corpses that are being burned in the dragon pit. But it could be a bunch of living sick people. Like what if the grayscale victims go to the Sept of Bor to try to get healed or to be safe or something like that.
You're muted.
Oh, brilliant one. Sorry. It was all very brilliant. I promise the the 10 words. Um, but yeah, it it's also very analogous to what is going on in Meereen right now where they are literally throwing corpses to dragons. That's like throwing corpses in a dragon pit.
>> Oh, yeah. You're you're right about that.
>> And they're burning them before they eat them, right? So, they're kind of burning the disease out. And and dragons and dragon people don't get sick anyway. So that's not really like they're obviously very well placed to deal with that kind of stuff and prevent those bodies from landing inside marines. So gross. But um it's something that people definitely did with plagues in warfare and in the real world.
>> Man, I didn't even think about the fact that there is also the pale mayor raging in Meereen.
>> George really likes to make things bad, doesn't he? Well, in the pale mare, it it works on so many levels because obviously, you know, a it's biblical a pale horse death or death rode in on a pale horse, right? And then we have our, you know, dragons who are like death horses. Um, and and of course, one of them is a pale dragon who will die and be resurrected and be a death horse. Um but yeah it's it's uh mare has multiple meanings. Mare is obviously a mother thing and we have a lot of you know Daenerys as the mother. She has disappeared and so the pale mare is kind of usurping her position.
Um there's there's also the fact that mare means sea. Um so like you know marine or you know myrr mer in French.
So it's like uh you know the green sea.
>> That's what I was about to say. There's there's a disease in the weirwood net that needs to be purified. Maybe. Okay.
So maybe that's why he keeps doing it.
>> Yeah. Um the purification I and I think the disease is otherism which is very well carried in the in thewood net by the pale mare. We have, you know, uh, slip near horses and ice spiders metaphorically or maybe even literally, you know, going through the Weirwood net, right? So, um, that being the disease being purified by the fiery dragon people and that being kind of how fire and ice resolve each other, how the green men and the dragon people stop fighting as they ally against it, it feels very packed of ice and fire. feels very first men aligning with the children of the forest to defeat the others who have kind of gotten too powerful and multiplied like a virus like they do, you know? So, it it feels like combating a disease.
>> Yeah, that's what it's got to come down to is the idea that the weirwood net is infected and it's got to be cleansed.
That's that's okay. That's starting to make sense to me. Um, and then, uh, so as far as the Sept of Baylor goes or just King's Landing in general, like just let me count the ways, right? Um, Cersei, so in the way that it happened in the show makes a certain amount of sense. So, that's one of the cooler things that they did is have Cersei burn it down just to get out of having to go to the trial and having to face accountability.
Um, the thing that I'm Okay, let me let me put it this way. All of the ice temple locations seem to have this impending disaster symbolism. And this would probably be because there once were two moons in the sky. And once one of them cracked one day, the other one will crack too. So that's the ice moon.
Its cracking is going to be the oncoming long night. And so whenever we see places that symbolize the ice moon like the eerie, we have this promise of a big disaster because we thinking about an avalanche on the giant's lance or we could even imagine it's a volcano. But you I think it's more like giants waking in the earth. It's called the giant's lance. What would happen if it had an earthquake? Um, if we look at uh the Sept of Bor, [clears throat] you know, there's um there's the ice dragon statue of Bor. We talked about there being an ice dragon in the wall potentially. The walls has tons of symbolism obviously about coming down. Um, and let's see, what other ice moon places are there?
>> Uh, well, there's the one in uh Braavos, the big temple. Um, temple >> temple singers. Um, but yeah, so something that I I've kind of been, you know, we've we've always had kind of not really been 100% sure whether there were actually two moons or whether there was one moon that kind of morphed its symbolism after a terrible event. And I've kind of been coming around to maybe that could be what happened. I was very sure about two moons, but now I'm less sure. And and the way I kind of look at it is moon is an egg, Kesi. Moon is a dragon egg and they are coated in stone.
They're very ice coated, right? Anything that's going to be stone is is always going to be icycoated.
And when you crack it open, fiery dragons come out. So it's like it was an icy moon, but when you cracked it open, drinks the fire of the sun. Thousand thousand dragons pour forth. So that's kind of like what you expect when you have a moon disaster is for dragons to pour forth.
>> Mhm.
But it's it's an ice moon every time, isn't it?
>> Um I don't I I've that's always been a question from the beginning. I don't necessarily want to go into that too deep.
in a in a symbolism sense it doesn't really matter you know um like it's one moon or two is Niss and it's a night's queen are they archetypes we may never know um >> sure >> so we can treat and we see the characters in the story moving from one to the other sansa's a great example she's doing fiery nissanissa stuff in king's landing and iccy nights queen stuff in the veil >> which is one of the reasons why I think you know maybe one transforms into the other but >> she did it backward centered on Sansa.
So think about how all this stuff um or we were talking about King's Landing.
How do we get on Sansa again?
>> Uh well because she was just a good example of the phenomenon but she she does it backwards which is really interesting because King's Landing is a you know symbolic meteor impact site that's you know all fiery dragon fiery moon stuff going on. And so she is a fiery Nissan Nissa. She goes to the veil, she becomes icy and the veil is an underworld location. So it's it's, you know, we talked earlier about her having a lot of pphanany parallels. You talked in the last stream. I mean, she she gets offered a um God, what's what's the fruit? Um >> pomegranate.
>> Pomegranate. Right. So anytime you see, >> pause right there. Okay. So Cersei is imprisoned in the Sept of Bor and Sansa is imprisoned in the Eerie. Those I've always seemed like parallel symbolisms to me. It's Nissan Nissa losing her fire and being imprisoned in an ice place.
And you'll notice that Cersei, not only she losing her power, she also gets her golden hair cut off. And when she comes out, she is exposed. Everyone sees her naked and like she's not so hot. Why did we ever listen to her anyway? by the It is 100% Danny.
>> Every element of it, every element is is Danny's alchemical wedding. She gets her hair burned off. Cersei gets it cut off.
She She's naked after this. She gets paraded naked through King's Landing. I mean, Danny lands some dragons and is naked because she had her clothes burned off in the ceremony. Um, >> and Danny's version of being inside an icy place, she puts on the white lion pelt, so she's not inside of a sept, but she's putting on a snowy thing. And then she's in the wasteland of the red waist, but >> just stick with the Cersei Sansa thing for a second and humor me, okay? So, because the Eerie is clearly an ice temple and the Sept of Baylor also literally an ice temple. Okay. And so Cersei is imprisoned in there and she eventually gets out, but she's lost her power and she's sort of plotting against the High Sparrow. So it's it would make sense if her plot comes around to where she takes revenge and blows that thing up. It would be similar to Sansa bringing down Peter as Lord of the Veil or potentially well just leading to any sort of disaster or downfall there.
>> But switching sides, >> what's that?
>> It's a switching sides thing, too. So, like she's a sun figure. She obviously, you know, Lannister, lion, blah, blah, blah. Golden hair. Um, she loses the golden hair. everything that makes her a sun king. She's lost political power, so she's no longer really a queen, right?
>> And Sansa dyes her hair, so it's sort of similar. Yeah.
>> And changes her name.
>> Um, >> by the way, just real quick, they also both have giant protectors named Robert.
>> Cersei has Robert Strong and Sweet and Sansa's got Sweet Robin who has the toy giant.
>> He did promise he would protect her.
>> He did. Yeah. He he also said he might pump a bastard in her which is also very Robert.
>> Well, he's just learning how to talk about all that stuff. He's not, you know, he doesn't understand all of it yet.
>> He's too close to the tapestries, >> but you can see it's a parallel.
>> Um, >> and so what does that tell us about the Septive Baylor? It tells you that Cersei and the Sept of Baylor may not be done.
>> No, I I don't think they are. And I think that's part of the transition. So when you are this, you know, fiery queen blah blah blah, that's I think that's a big Amethyst Empress thing, you know, Empire of the Dawn and then the Amethyst Empress gets usurped and killed and she and that's like going to an underworld location. We see all of these characters go to an underworld location. They're plotting how to gain power back, how to escape the werewood net. And when they come out, they come out with a new form of magic. And they go hard and they it's disastrous and it's destructive and it's brutal. And for Cersei, we know how that's going to manifest. It's going to manifest in wildfire because that's, you know, she's crazy for wildfire. She loves it.
>> Yeah. She's got it. Her eyes are like wildfire. That's a really strong clue to me. Now, let's think about this. Sweet Robin with his giant. He destroyed the ice castle.
that Sansa made. Okay. Yeah. So, is it going to be Robert Strong that is sent to do the deed?
>> No. Um because and and I've looked at this a lot with the language on the Blackwater where that is kind of somewhat Cersei's thing. It's also kind of Tyrion's thing. Tyrion is the giant of Lannister who unleashed the Jade Hulk.
>> Yes. And and the demon giant, you know, green giant and all that. Yeah. So like when we talk about a giant that is green, >> the ship is George describes the ship as a Hulk and then the giant green demon comes out of it. So yes, shout out Lou Farerigno and the Incredible Hulk obviously. But yeah, um you're right. It is it is uh it is Tyrion the giant who who does that. So yes, that would make sense if um if Robert Strong did it. And also again, the giant's lance is the mountain that could shake and destroy the eerie. So the whole giant destroying the ice castle thing is like kind of done several times. Um, so yeah, if if Cersei burns a sept of Baylor, it might be sending Robert Strong to do the deed to because he can go and set something off and if he dies, who cares? He's a zombie, you know? like >> he also may be the only person who obeys Cersei at this point >> or depending I don't know how that works.
>> Yeah. Yeah. But I mean the as opposed to the rest of the king's guard are going to completely ignore her >> her orders.
>> Um nobody in the Lannister family or the Tyrells care what she has to say. She's been depowered politically. So that's kind of her avenue back to power and it is through extreme violence and that's how it always goes. Danny is the best example of this um her avenue back to power after she lost her political power because Drogo died and she went to an underworld location.
Her avenue back to power is the dragons.
And she is not burning down any cities.
She is killing people but they're mostly people like slavers and stuff. we shouldn't feel so bad.
>> But um >> but again, the extreme violence and basically, you know, you're playing chess and you flip over the table.
>> Like that's that's what's going on. Like you you are now playing an entirely different game. And that's kind of why it works. Nobody is going to expect Cersei to just blow up, you know, however many of the most important people in the realm, whether it's I tend to think it will be Fegon who gets blown up in the Sept of Bor. Um, but yeah, >> that would be interesting. That could be interesting. Eaten by a dragon symbolism. I prefer him to get eaten by Drogon, but yeah, that that could work.
>> Yeah, the uh the green dragon eating Fagon would be very fitting.
>> So, think about this. Let me let me interject this before I lose it. Aries gave orders to burn down King's Landing with wildfire. And it was a King's Guard that objected and killed him instead.
So, Lannister King's Guard. So, this time it'll be Queen Lannister, Cersei, giving an order to a King's Guard who's named Robert to burn down the city. And instead of killing the queen, he's actually going to carry it out.
And that that would really tie a bow on let Robert become the king of charred bones and uh what was the line?
>> Yeah. Uh cooked bones and charred meat or something. Yeah. Ashes and >> which actually it just sounds like you know a Baratheon cookout if we're being hon. Not so bad.
>> Tim wants to know when the blockade in the Saffron Straits is going to be opened. We don't know Tim. That's everyone's con, you know, concerned about that. It's a lot of confusion.
>> The Jade Sea is off limits, man.
>> Yeah, I don't have the answers for you here. If I did, I'd be getting paid a lot more by someone else.
>> The Green Sea. Oh, I'm a real albino.
Therefore, I always get to be Blood Raven.
>> Okay, fair enough.
>> You can't just read random chat messages. Um, subt.
I'm sorry. I've got >> I singular when I'm talking about Blood Raven, but >> asking you to consider an essay on strongest themes or character parallels.
Kimberly Lefay says, "Much love to all you do." Um, strongest themes or character parallels. Can you refine the request?
I talk about those things a lot.
I did have somebody recently ask me for an example of like how George's foreshadowing works was something that's already happened. And one of the things I mentioned uh was obviously the Red Wedding. Uh but there's some other stuff uh Stoneheart, she's a great example like we've already like her transformation into Lady Sternheart has been foreshadowed all through Cat's plot. Um if anyone's got more ideas like that, I definitely think those would be some cool things to talk about.
Yeah, I mean when George has a big event, he always foreshadows it. That is always a thing. Whether we find it or not is, you know, whe how well we're looking for it, honestly. But he it's always there. You know, like you're talking about Lady Stoneheart and and she is, you know, people in her family have died and she says she feels her heart turning to stone. She wonders if she will just, you know, go on like a, you know, lonely ghost and blah blah blah. And it's like, yeah, that all sounds like Lady Stoneheart >> and Yeah.
>> Ela Stone.
>> Yeah.
>> If we're if we're back to Sansa here, she's doing the Stoneheart thing right now.
>> Well, and in a similar way, like she is Elaine Stone in this stone god'swood that's cut off from the weirwood net.
Like it's all of a piece. It's similar to uh the state the status that Catelyn is the state that Catelyn is in as Lady Stoneheart. It's not a good thing. Um John also has a stone heart. Sam wonders when John's heart turned to stone. Um >> and John Conington will have a stone everything.
>> It's uh it's not polite to mention it, but it's true. Um >> um also another another iteration of the name Elaine Stoneheart or Ala or Elaine Stone a lane stone like you're building something out of stone.
>> So you lay even >> or yeah which also yes the wall it's both. It's a bunch of stones laid down and frozen. It is a lay line. We know it's a hinge of the world that is a lay line. What does Sansa do as a lane stone? She builds Winterfell.
>> Yeah.
>> So, she is laying the stones and Winterfell is certainly built at an important location that's sort of prepicked. So, yeah.
>> It's also just so funny because like who gets credit for building both the wall and the inner wall of Winterfell?
>> Bran the Builder, but probably Nights Queen did all that stuff. Yeah.
>> Right. And we have our Bran figure.
Sweet Robin is basically just, you know, diseased Bran over here. Like he's his cousin. They're the same age. He has his little shimonic episodes. Yeah. He's He's all very He's Branco coded top to bottom.
>> He's sickly. Kind of like how Bran has sacrificed his legs. He's sacrificed his health. Um he's constantly drinking the um the What is it that he's drinking?
It's not milk of a poppy, is it?
>> Oh, he's he's fed porridge a lot. He likes to throw it around and stuff. He's always being fed porridge, right? Sweet sleep is the drug, >> right?
>> In the mother's milk. Yeah.
>> Bran is doing, you know, green dreams and sleeping after after wewood paste.
>> It's the same thing.
>> What?
>> I'm sorry. That one got me.
Okay.
Um, that's what it is. Yeah. There's a red chili peppers album called Mother's Milk. That's the joke.
that we want. All right. So, um, what was I just I was just going to say something with with the uh the stones the Stoneheart stuff.
Do you think Stoneheart will become aware of Bran Sansa and Arya still being alive? I think that the one Stark child that Lady Stoneheart has a chance of seeing is Arya. Arya is the one who gives the gift of mercy. No one has ever needed the gift of mercy more than Lady Stoneheart. Um, so that could be interesting because it could be both an ending for Lady Stoneheart and Catelyn would be understanding that one of her children isn't dead, which would be a nice way, a little closing thought for her to have. So, that could make sense to me.
>> Yeah. Um, and I mean I I could see it happening that way where it's like it's also the child who gave her the most absolute fits. Arya was, you know, Arya does not conform to the gender roles and and also just really likes getting into trouble. And uh Arya is a challenging kid to parent in this age. And especially for Catelyn who is not a tom tomboy in any way, it it would be a nice kind of resolution to that. I could also just see, you know, the fact is is she has gone down this road of pure vengeance where it is perpetuating violence cycles, which is something, you know, George is trying to show that that's not how you get things done. You can't just chase vengeance. It only leads to more cycles of violence.
and and he does that best with um Oberin's Paramore when she's talking about the sand snakes like and then who avenges you and who avenges them and you know it's just a circle forever.
>> Okay. Well, so for example, uh hatred is essentially operating like a disease here, >> right?
>> It infects multiple generations. It spreads. People pass it to each other and it just brings essentially devastation everywhere it goes.
>> Yeah. and and you have to give it up because and and if you want it to look as much like a disease as possible, you look at the brackens and Blackwoods. Um it's like a disease ate their tree.
>> Um you know, and and they just keep getting it back and forth. They've even had attempts at resolution where they intermar with each other and they try to, you know, squash the beef there. But it hasn't worked.
>> Well, what is working is uh doing these streams on Sunday. We got 400 people watching. Thank you folks. And if you have not yet clicked a thumbs up button, please do that for me now. Uh but yes, thank you. This is what we like to do.
Um I said a little something at the end of my very long First Man video where I was just like, "Thank you for being the kind of person that enjoys very long videos." And I will reiterate that concept now even though you haven't heard me iterate it the first time because that hasn't come out yet. But yeah, I love y'all and I'm very happy to be able to do this. So, gray plague, black plague seems like an obvious parallel. Uh, we mentioned, you know, grayscale, there's the more virulent form, which is gray plague. Now, gray plague mostly it kills people whereas grayscale has this gradual transformation. Great plague is a more rapid version of the disease and basically it either kills you or it'll leave you marked like Shireen and then you know you survive and it's inert. We think the Wildlings don't think so. But point is um it the gray plague version will kill people.
So, when I talk about John Con spreading an epidemic, like it wouldn't be quite an epidemic if people just start to notice their pinkies turning black, like that doesn't create quite the panic that we need. We need lots of people to die quickly. Um, and that's great plague.
So, I asked you the other day with your knowledge of medieval history, such as it is, not to make you out to be an expert or anything, but like isn't George likely doing some sort of comparison to the black plague here?
Yeah, I I think two things are going on in terms of structure. I think it's uh small pox. So you have obviously the chickenpox which you know inoculates you blah blah blah. Small pox if you just if you survive it, you are marked. Those things scar you. So it's it's kind of like the uh you know Shireen being marked by uh anyway. So um >> and it's on hero cheek too. So it's yeah it's very comparable. So, the majority of this though I I do agree is on the black plague. Aside from the naming convention, in Georgia's world, black doesn't necessarily mean death as much as gray means death. Um, and and beyond that, you know, we we have it taking root in Oldtown with the maesters who are all in gray. Um, we have the uh you know, the white tower with gray, the high tower. We have uh in and and of course the uh the maesters are called the gray rats by some of our favorite people and >> in Braavos it was rats that spread the gray plague. Um right they Lio talks about that of course he lost his Sarah to the great plague and um he mentions little rats with stone feet patting ashore you know from the ships that brought it from wherever. Well, and and originally we credited uh rats with spreading the black plague. We now know that it was actually like fleas on the rats or something to do with that. Um >> believe that >> which kind of you know still somewhat the rats. But the Yeah, the point is is like the rats or the gray rats here spreading the plague from Oldtown.
it thematically fits.
[clears throat] Um, so what happened in London? Wasn't there one particular black plague out out uh like where we get our whole plague doctor aesthetic and stuff from?
Like was there multiple incidents of that or is there one major one? And isn't it in like some major works of fiction that I should know?
>> There were three major waves of the black plague. I don't know if any of them specifically hit London harder, but I'm glad you brought up the plague doctor because those plague doctor masks are uh they're ravens.
>> You're right.
You're right about that. And why was that?
>> Ravens are associated with death.
Yeah, it really I mean, yeah, George did not, you know, pull that string too hard.
He still associates his ravens with death. You know, the crone letting the first ravens into the world. The crows are basically just smaller ravens, which we did a whole stream about how that is biologically true.
>> So, Greyways Tim is envisioning a cover of Jimmyi Hendris's Stone Free with Stone Fleas. Hey, and that just brings back Red Hot Chili Peppers.
>> Indeed. Who also covered uh they covered Fire by Jimmyi Hendris >> and and their drummer's name is Flea.
>> Oh, >> yeah.
>> It's a small small circle >> stoned flea. Thank you, Tim.
>> Okay, so the bubonic plague. Yeah.
Caused by the bactinium urine pestus.
And we've found that like in ancient burials amongst the Yamniat. It's maybe one of the reasons why the Yamni were able to spread so wise. They they carried they carried the the >> Oh, whoops. We brought it with us. No, this is this is good. Um, also because the bubonic plague is basically cured with really good hygiene. You know, like if you regularly wash, like you're you're not going to usually die of the black plague.
So, who do we know that is obsessed with washing all the time?
>> Oh, the unsullied.
>> Yes, but I was also I was Yeah, and and they are they do seem to be immune to a lot of the diseases uh war dragon warriors. But I was going to say Dunk and Dunk survives all these plagues.
He survives the spring sickness. He survives the shivers. He's like >> pure Hmbo power kept him safe. Yeah, >> he's bathing regularly. He cracked the code.
>> Well, they're in Dorne during the spring sickness the entire time and Dorne shuts off all its passes and isolates and doesn't get uh that that disease. So, >> [clears throat] >> um Okay. So, basically, what are the vibes in London when the bubonic plague breaks out? Like what kind of things happen?
terror, disaster, looting, um crime, panic. It's just I mean we had somewhat of a window into it with uh with CO a few years back, but imagine if CO were a lot more likely to kill you. We had a lot less information on it and we didn't think to or have the mechanisms to isolate or quarantine or do anything like that. We we didn't have quite sure how it was even spreading.
Yeah.
>> Right. Well, and like we really take for granted the fact that like yeah, we could just door dash food.
>> The Door Dasher doesn't need to make any direct contact with the person who prepares the food who doesn't need to make any direct contact with you. And now you've got your food, you've got, you know, whatever drugs you needed from Walgreens delivered. You know, you like we can do so many things without actually interacting with people. And so we were able more ancillary effects of having a plague hit us were muted, whereas you're not going to get that in London, which was one of the most populated cities on Earth at the time.
No, you're you rais a very good point.
Um, food delivery is not available in King's Landing and in order to get anything, you have to leave the house and go talk to people. Yeah. So, that is going to lead to like a lot of paranoia and hoarding and um once they quarantine the city, that means nobody goes in or out, so everyone's trapped inside.
Yeah.
It's going to be bad. Um, so getting back to Okay, so Sept of Bor definitely possible that Cersei will blow it up.
Um, is there a possibility that John Khan himself [snorts] will blow it up in order like there's a little bit of a freakout coming for him potentially. Um, because he doesn't know that Rhaegar's son isn't Rhaegar's son. And if he were to find that out, it's kind of going to make his whole life sort of meaningless. He's just been working to put Ayio's son on the throne, and it has nothing to do.
>> That's not my silver princling. Um, >> could he turn against Fegon?
[clears throat] I don't think he would because they've spent too much time together, >> but it could definitely like loosen him up as far as like >> what am I even doing anymore, you know?
He's going to die soon doing some dramatic final act. Like that could be something he chooses to do. I'm just not sure.
Like maybe he's trying to kill Cersei.
Uh is Fegon going to have problems with the High Sparrow?
So, something that we we talked about on the phone, we mentioned a little bit earlier in the stream is when we get to Winds of Winter, a lot of events are going to be happening really quickly and we're not always going to have a complete beat on what's going on until after. And so, I do think that there will be a plague and I I like the well theory with uh John Khan. So, um him spreading >> Yeah. him spreading um you you know the the disease and then you know while they're dealing with that and the nobles are trying to stay insulated from that and Fegon is trying to you know have himself crowned by the high septin and the sept of Bor and and pretend as if everything's normal for this coronation and the Sept of Bor blows up and so it's just disaster folded into disaster folded into disaster and and that's how I just kind of see it happening for a while.
And it would also just make more sense with the things that the show made nonsensical.
King's Landing is a bombed out tomb by the end of the show, >> right? Okay. So, that's that's the thing I want to focus on. The bells, the idea, this idea that David Dan have that, oh, someone hears the bells and they kind of go crazy. That's obviously something that would only make sense for John Con.
So, what bells are those? And what does he do when he starts to like feel that, you know, burning feeling in his brain that he's got to do something?
>> What if that is John Khan finding out that Fegon is fake during the coronation while they are tolling the bells for the new king?
The sound I feel like the sound of the bells should communicate something that drives him crazy.
It could just be that they're ringing while something is happening. That could happen.
But I'm thinking like >> I don't think them communicating the the bells communicating that they have a new king is uh the right fit >> cuz there obviously there are a bunch of >> see. So like he's just found out that like oh he's not really who he is and then he hears the bells ringing and it's like oh it's too late to stop it.
>> Yeah.
>> Okay.
>> That's kind of I mean I I haven't put a ton of thought or research into that.
>> Sure. No, we're just workshopping. No worries.
>> Yeah. I' I've put a lot more thought and research into the fact that the Sept of Bor will probably blow up during Vegon's coronation. That's definitely what I think.
>> And the bells would ring during the coronation. Um the bells ring when a king dies. The bells ring at a wedding.
>> Um the bells could ring for surrender.
That's what happened in the TV show.
>> Yeah. And Danny had some big feelings about it and turned into dragon Hitler.
Yeah, that was justice for Danny.
>> I don't think Fegon marrying somebody that John Khan didn't want him to marry would do it. I think you might actually be on to something there with like the coronation is happening as he's realizing that it shouldn't be happening.
Yeah. Um, and then, you know, maybe he's capable of preventing, you know, the wildfire from blowing off, but instead he just lets it happen and, you know, kind of realizing he's about to die anyway. Everything that he worked for is a lie, blah, blah, blah. And >> it could be Fegon's death, too. Like, if Fegon takes the throne and then he's killed somehow, the bells could be ringing and then he'd be like, "Oh, man.
They're tolling for him, too. I failed."
>> Yeah. And then he directs Fyeon's army to just start massacring people. But um yeah, it it could be any number of things. Um but it's going to happen.
It's just too circular. Um, and and what's the name of that little uh >> stone?
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Because I mean >> that's why I said are all the stone people gonna go to the sept of Bor and is it potentially going to get burned down because somebody's like oh all the diseased people are in there or >> maybe becomes stony sept because he spreads uh the disease to everybody in there.
>> Yeah, there's something that's that's why I say the sept of Bor could be coming around in this plot somehow.
So, we've got Fegon trying to take the city from Cersei. We've got Cersei desperate to avoid accountability from the faith and potentially to avoid this conquering army of Fegon. We've got John Khan with the potential to be suddenly disillusioned.
Um or to have Fegon sort of split ways with him in terms of what they want to do. Uh and that yeah, so there's a few there's a lot of variables here. Um, we we do we should expect Fegon to be greeted by cheering crowds. And these are going to be like the last time that anyone cheers in King's Landing. So, it's going to be good for a second before it gets bad.
>> Well, and another thing I think we should not expect in the books that we saw in the movie is Cersei blows up the Sept of Bor and then just kind of is handed power. Um and and we don't, you know, think too much about it and and theoretically over a certain amount of time she could consolidate power because a lot of the big players have been destroyed, but their armies haven't and people would take control of their armies. We should not be expecting Cersei to retake King's Landing.
>> I don't think she's going to. I think she disappears to The Rock.
>> Yeah. But no, no, I don't think that whole that whole queen arc is a TV show thing. Yeah, I agree.
>> Who are the Carl Marks and Milton?
>> Hang on, I got a super chat that I I don't think I could possibly answer. Who are the Karl Mars and Milton Freriedman in Song of Ice and Fire? I don't know.
>> Okay, >> so Carl Marx uh you know basically very much against uh the hierarchy of capitalism and then Milton Friedman is a more modern. Septin Marabald is like your Marxist in the story potentially, you know, somebody like that.
>> I was going to say maybe maybe Septan Bar to a point. Um, but I there doesn't really exist yet. They >> I don't know that those are people that George be trying to parallel.
>> They need to get past medieval ages in order to uh have people who aren't the nobility starting to be educated and and waxing poetic about power structures.
There's a lot of like Oliver Cromwells and Rasputants in this story.
>> Yeah. And and frankly, those are more fun to read about, but um Yeah.
>> Yeah. Those other guys are a little slow reading, honestly. Kind of tough reading. Um so, do you see a parallel between Grace, this is from Rudy Wild, parallel between Gayscale potentially taking over King's Landing and the Doom of Valyria, uh with like empires rotting from the inside out. I do think that George obviously shows that pride goes before a fall and he loves to, you know, show the fruits of hubris. So, in that sense, it's parallel. But I think really the thing to think about with Gayscale and King's Landing is that curse of Garen making its way, you know, to the city built by the last Valyrian. That seems intentional and poetic to me.
>> Yeah. Um, dragon lords have to end.
That's that's a big part of it. um they would not have named one of the major outposts or colonies of dragon lords Volantis, which V just means flight. Um so this is like, you know, either where the dragon lords flee to, but either way, Atlantis is built into the name. So, you know, there aren't a bunch of descendants of Atlantis around like, damn, we missed the good old days. like they all died.
They're gone. They sunk into the ocean.
The Doom of Valyria was very much like that. And the people who tried to take over later, like there were some dragon lords in Volantis, try to take Graham Hancock, have you?
>> There were these group called the seven sages. They took the Atlantean wisdom and they carefully carried it in those handbags and they spread it around everywhere. And that's why people know stuff.
I was going to say I have I have read Graham Hancock but yeah I I really wanted to believe Atlantis but actually it turns out to wanted to believe but science but science you know archaeology [clears throat] by Plato. So >> glad we had that covered. We've just we've just um sprung some people loose from the uh alternative science complex.
I feel it.
>> Sorry about it. Um, but yeah, it's it's uh the dragon lords, they have to die.
That has to end for the same reason that Bran has to burn down the weirwood net and end the mechanism of skin changing, green seeing, otherism, dragons have to end, too, or dragon riding at least. So, you know, we we're going to see the end of it in the same way that Valyria was destroyed in a big doom. the dragon riders who tried to take over uh Valyria's former empire from Volantis got you know murdered by the peasants a lot like the dragon pit in King's Landing.
Um and then there was one more guy Orion who tried to you know uh you know lead an empire or lead an army into Valyria and retake Valyria.
You know, I'm I'm sure no parallels to Orin Waters, who commands the Navy that I assume the Golden Company has taken.
>> So, I really like um Orion as a Euron parallel because if Euron flies off to the north on a dragon and is never seen again, that's what happens to Orion.
>> Well, they both are, I think, because Orang just like Euron >> takes a gigantic fleet, takes control of it, crowns himself king. So, uh, he's >> and he'll probably go into the sea and never be seen again. Yeah.
>> Right. So, Orane, Orion, Euron, like they're they're all playing a a similar role. They are dragonish people grasping a little too far.
>> Tim wants to know if Mew has been debunked.
>> Huh?
>> That's the That's the Atlantis of the Pacific. Mew as in Laamria. Um, I think you're good, Tim. I think that one is still existing in the uh the zone of unknown.
>> Okay, so it exists, but Cthulhu is there. Good luck.
>> Well, the thing about um, you know, is about flood myths is most of them are local and they later become global, you know, in conception. So if you're looking at the Pacific, obviously we have place called Sunderland, which is just Indonesia and all the rest of those islands up to the Wallace line essentially was used to be a subcontinent. Now it's a bunch of islands. So let's not get lost in that. But uh yeah, by the way, all the the Gray Mangok stuff was sarcasm.
>> I don't really believe in the sages and the handbags. I was that was sarcasm.
So, >> but just real quick, I mean, you mentioned Indonesia and and yes, they were flooded out of being a full subcontinent and they had snake people come up from the waters and turn into them. So, I'm just saying Iron Islands used to be a subcontinent.
Oh, yeah. Well, it should probably think about that. Yeah, since they they he did put Naga, you know, on the Iron Islands. though that's the thing about some of his parallels.
It's like you wouldn't think to look for Indonesian Buddhist ideas or whatever um on the Iron Islands. Neither would we think to look for Arththeran stuff on the Iron Islands, but it is there as well as Lord of the Rings stuff.
>> Yeah.
>> Oh, love.
>> Uh Rudy Wild, the big Lightbringer and the Dragon Elite with the fake news. The younger Dryas are real. Well, no, the younger Dryas are real. Um no one's debating that. Many people are saying it. Caraxius was robbed. He's still on about Caraxis. God bless you.
>> That's why I liked the post. Caraxis was robbed. He's He's our noodle danger [snorts] noodle boy and and he's the bestest boy.
>> Danger noodle. That's right. That's my favorite name for him.
Um.
Okay. So, let's see what else we got in the Discord here.
>> It's just It's like a big red pool noodle. Just whap.
When Tyrion first comes to King's Landing, he doesn't immediately execute Littlefinger for framing him for Bran's murder. Common argument is that Littlefinger is irreplaceable. Um I think um that's one where Tyrion might do it differently if he had a doover. You know, he he thinks about it a lot. He just doesn't quite bring himself to do it. Like that question goes for Peter a lot. It's like why didn't somebody just kill him and then eventually somebody will. Well, and yeah, it's it's also just kind of interesting because that's that's kind of Tyrion's evolution is he's very much he's a lot like Tywin, but Tywin is brutal as we know him the whole time. He he is that brutal. If Tywin came to that information that he had been framed by Littlefinger, Littlefinger is dead that afternoon. Um, whereas Tyrion is trying desperately not to become Tywin, yet the mechanism of the plot is turning him more and more like Tywin, which is bad. It's always bad. You don't want to Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Um, and that's true. Gray area does call Caraxis the throat goat. That's true.
Um, >> yeah, >> I feel like she gets away with that better, >> but um, so here's a good question, a little less related to Sansa and King's Landing. I've been thinking about Arion Bright Flame and why he drank wildfire so late in life. He's almost 40 and he does it the same year that his son is born. So, um, Zedekiah is wondering, was he trying to put his spirit in a dragon for his son to ride or was he trying to do some sort of specific magic having to do with his kid? That does seem like a weird coincidence that it happened in the same year.
>> I think um he's very confused. Um, I think he's like we talk about uh Aean Targaryen, you know, Maester Aemon saying that the dragon dreams killed all of his brothers. He's including Aryan Bright Flame. So, I think him not being able to interpret what is literal and what is, you know, dreamscape figurative, it's kind of what the problem is with all of them. Like Darren has that dream of Dunk, you know, with the dead dragon and they don't know how to interpret it and then Bor's dead. Aegon, you know, they misinterpret the woods witch's dream about, you know, dragons being born at Summer Hall or whatever and nearly the whole house dies. So, excuse me. So for Arion, we have to assume that he knows some things but not everything because if he knew everything, they would all know everything.
And that he's got it confused and backwards, which is kind of like what happens with Aerys, right? He wants to turn >> It's literally everyone until Danny, basically, >> right? Ays wants to turn King's Landing into his funeral p and he thinks he'll be reborn as a dragon. That's kind of, you know, what we assume will happen with Aryen except there's no dragon for him to become. So, it's something is confused there.
>> Well, they do have eggs at that point.
So, that's he would have been trying to it's basically the same thing as what I came to with Summerhalt where like Egg is trying to sacrifice himself, hatch the dragons for Rhaegar to have a dragon. Um, so basically the question is, you know, is it possible that we could actually be misjudging Arion a little bit in the sense that he what, you know, didn't just do this out of sheer madness or to turn into a dragon?
What if he was trying to sacrifice himself to wake a dragon for his kid? I mean, that's an interesting theory.
>> We will eventually get there. Uh, if Night of the Seven Kingdoms keeps going.
So, >> I've got something really bad about Summer Hall.
What's that?
>> I've got something really bad about Summer Hall.
>> Oh, and what's that?
>> So, I think I think it's there's a lot of Lord of the Rings in Summerhal. It is, you know, a castle for the Targaryenss have a lot in common with the Num Manorian Gondorian kings.
>> Mhm. And um Summerh Hall being at the base of and built into the Red Mountains is a lot like Mus Tith being built into the base of uh I forget the name of the mountain, but it's that big mountain range that goes through.
>> And um I see it as a Denithor scene, you know, bring me bring me oil and he burn he's going to burn himself and Phamir to death, right? like a like the heathen kings of old except in this iteration it's you know the Targaryenss think that that will turn them into dragon eggs. So Egg burning himself and maybe his son Prince Duncan who is no longer in the line of succession.
I don't want to believe it.
>> So that's about as dark as I will go on it. I think that he was trying to burn himself. Um, but the whole two kings to wake a dragon thing.
Yeah, I have wondered if like did he did he rope Duncan, Prince of Dragon flies into this.
>> And I I wonder more than that because it it all everything in that seems to be sevens, right? Which is part of the problem because seven is others math.
When you're birthing dragons, you do it in threes, right? You have the conqueror's three dragons. Danny's three dragons.
I didn't think about that.
>> Right. So, I'm I'm worried about him sacrificing him, Duncan or, you know, Duncan the Small and others, maybe up to seven people to make this happen. Or maybe he wasn't intending to sacrifice anybody, but that's how it kind of symbolically played out.
>> I'm hoping that that is the case. Yeah, >> I hope that's how it played out, too.
Cuz if if we we already know they are all dead, so if they're going to be all dead, hopefully it wasn't because, you know, Egg went, you know, full cartoon villain.
So, we have Okay, so I've I've gotten through the questions here. Thank you everyone for putting the questions in the Discord. And again, if you want a Discord link, YouTube channel member Squisher, hit the join button or you can join Patreon. You'll get an invite. I just put a fresh one out this morning.
And as you can see here on the left, we have you can talk about all kinds of stuff.
Creative writing, other TV shows, meetups, there's a pumping D and D group in here. You guys are playing Dungeons and Dragons a couple times a week, uh book club, movie club, all kinds of stuff. So definitely a fun place to hang out. And the whole thing is that it's it's a piece of the old internet. You know, it's actually community. People are nice to each other. nobody's flaming each other and we just talk about nerdy stuff. So, if you like that, check it out. And um it's time to play a game. It is 4:19.
And so, and so I've got a little something ready. We >> There is a King's Guard knight. His name is Boros Blunt or Boros Blunt, you could say it that way. Okay. And uh Boros Blunt. Let's imagine that we are Boros Blunt has been knocked unconscious and we are there's a bunch of people or seven people were carrying Boros Blunt um you know away from the battlefield and as we're carrying him we're rotating him. So we need seven people for this Boros Blunt rotation.
Um just trying to keep this from getting banned. Yeah, we >> No, this is who would you praise Gar with who gets seven picks here.
>> Opposite of a nightmare blunt rotation.
Um >> Okay. Uh can we can we actually take a Can I go to the bathroom real quick before we >> Absolutely can. I have Rhaegar music queued up and we will do that. You can collect your thoughts >> and then we will we will say the top seven people that we would like to praise G with in Westeros. Come [music] Come >> [music] >> on.
Hey.
>> [music] >> Hey there friends. Hey there friends.
And we're back. We do. Thank you for joining us here on this 419.
Unless you're in Europe holiday.
Let's see if Oh my goodness. What's that? That shouldn't be on camera. That shouldn't be on camera.
I definitely didn't just praise G and run up and down the stairs in the last 45 seconds.
So, Grey Waist Tim, he's got his roster already. Euron Ramsay the Mountain Virkins Godric Burell Patchface.
That thing is not getting around the circle. Like there's no way it's not getting past the mountain. He'd burn it all the way down.
He'd like hit it so hard it would run all the way to one side. Oh, Godric Burell. He's going to get it all wet.
His hands are all webbed and watery.
>> Sticky fingers. He has literal sticky fingers.
>> True.
Shout out Sticky Fingers from Onyx.
[clears throat] All right, I will let you go first since you are the guest.
>> Yeah, do not pass it. Do not have a You never want a Borell in the rotation.
Those webbed hands are never really dry.
Yeah, that's >> that's those are horrible picks, Tim. I guess that was the nightmare rotation. I Yeah, I don't want to hang out with these people who are going to like sacrifice me to an elder god. Like, anyway, uh, daydream sour leaf rotation.
>> I Yeah, I would not smoke anything that you're on handed to me, that's for sure.
Like, what's in there?
>> No, no, that guy put like angel and demon dust in that. Um, let's see. Okay, my first pick.
I'm gonna go with Dollaris Ed.
>> I So, I shared this with you. Oh, you got Okay, cool. Um, Dollaris Ed, that's a good pick.
That's a real good pick.
That's uh that's setting a good bar here. Okay. So, um I'm going to go with Oh, that's okay. I see some good stuff in the chat here. I do. I'm going to go with Arch Maester Marwin. He's got to be my first pick. Um he choose the Sour Leaf. He's just got a lot of interesting things to say. He seems like he would get more interesting the more begged he got. Um so, I'm going to go with Arch Master Marwin. But he just is kind of cool. You know, he's been to a shy, got the Valyan mask. You know, he'd go around a couple times like, "Marwin, put on the mask." Okay, fine. You know, >> if you're trying to learn stuff, that's your guy. Like, that's the guy who knows too much about the plot of A Song of Ice and Fire. You get him high >> and you never know if he's telling you the truth either. He could be pulling your leg or he could be telling you some obscure interesting fact. You have no idea if it's true or not. Yeah, I'm uh I'm not trying to learn things from these people. I'm just trying to have a relaxed time as far away from Tim's rotation as possible. Qua cuts a just cuts a mouth hole in her mask. Tim says, "All right, your pick."
>> I'm going to say Tyrell.
>> Okay.
>> Yeah. If she smokes, she's got the good stuff. I mean, she can only smoke very pure.
>> Yeah. You know, well cured.
>> She is going to get she's going to have that filter removed even more. She's going to be sassy. She's just going to be a good time talking smack on everybody.
>> She's going to have that high card high dank.
>> She's treating her glaucoma as great tips say.
>> Okay. Well, >> I had to I had to mute before that cough laugh. Well, I like the I like the gender um the gender equal stuff here. So, I will again pull right from the chat. I'm going to go with Shira Sea Star.
>> That's a great You have a You have for sure have a different goal in mind than me for this.
>> I'm I'm Yeah, I do. I want I want it to be as mystical as possible.
>> You're You're getting shamanic with it.
Um >> there's still time for me to save my roster, don't worry.
>> I don't know. I don't I don't think it's a bad thing. I just think, you know, we're not necessarily coming at this from the same angle. And I'm >> The chat is killing either one of us.
Some of the ones in the chat are terrific here.
>> So, I I'm going to go with Davos. That was my next pick. I was going to put him at some point, but I make sure you don't get him, even though he's not going to tell you anything important.
>> No, Davos keeps it real. I mean, you can at least trust him, you know, handle the blunt properly. The Boros, we're talking about Boros Blunt, King's Guard Knight.
>> Um, okay. I like that. Let's see here.
I'm gonna go with uh Green Beard.
>> Green Beard, he's a likes to have fun, you know. He stops by the end, he hits up the inkeep. She's happy to see him.
Uh there's mult, you know, there's like his bed is kind of a party. He's nice to Arya. He dyes his beard. He's like, you know, he's old, but he's still dying his hair fun colors and stuff. I mean, yeah.
>> Young like green beard.
H tough decisions. Um, lots of good stuff in the chat, that's for sure.
You know what? I think I'm this this would be his first time and and we're going to like introduce him to the circle cuz he I don't think he's ever um assisted Sir Boros Blunt before.
I'm going to go with Edric Dayne.
>> Okay, I like this idea.
>> Um I'm going to I'm going to copy your motivation. Somebody that has not praised G that needs to. How about Sir Bariston the Bold? Like bro, relax for a minute. put your feet up, try some of this. You're taking everything really seriously.
You know, he deserves it. He's had a long He's worked really hard. And I like it.
>> No, it's it's also just funny cuz like there's a uh I usually don't pay attention to the memes that come out of the internet about all these characters, but because of, you know, his history, they call him bystander Sel.
Um >> perfect.
>> Yeah. So, >> we know he'll like only hit it the right amount of times and quickly pass it along. He's not going to, you know, bog guard it or anything. So, >> yeah. Yeah.
>> We changed his name from Barristen the Bold.
>> Okay. All right. I I got a I got one.
And and I think this is a way that we're gonna squash some existing beef and really really turn enemies into friends here, >> but I'm gonna bring Gendry in here.
>> Okay.
>> Him and him and Edric, you know, I like >> Henry's passing, by the way. He's like, "No, I'm good."
>> Yeah.
>> Hate to say it.
>> Yeah. I don't want it.
>> Don't want it. Yeah. He's kind of >> If you say so, though. Well, he's in the rotation. Maybe you need one person in the rotation that isn't partaking just to keep an eye on things, you know.
>> I feel like he just, you know, he doesn't inhale, you know. He just >> he feels kind of straight edge. He does.
Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> I've got there's some good ones in the chat here. Um I'm going to go with >> kind of the most obvious pick just to make sure he doesn't get left out.
Tormund Giants Spain.
Yeah, >> it's just kind of no brainer.
>> Although you >> trying to be creative here, but let's not overlook the obvious.
>> You don't have two more picks. The the horn blower himself, like you think those vacuum lungs are going to let anything get to the next two people?
>> No, that's true. He's killing it. It's very Snoop Dog. I ain't even hit it yet, man. [ __ ] But um but it still be worth it just to have him in the rotation. I mean >> Oh, yeah. He would get really baked and tell a great story and be like, "Yeah, that was worth it."
>> He was a vibe choice and he's on my list.
>> Um, damn. He was one. He was Damn, got me. Um, Jojan Reed is two more rows for the circle, guys. Yeah, that's >> Yeah, I don't think his health would would allow it either.
>> It's permanently baked anyway.
I'm gonna go with Jory Cassell.
>> Okay.
>> I just feel like uh you know, he'd be into it and he'd just be chill about it.
>> So, I like this because Joryy's the kind of guy that still gets his work done and takes everything seriously. He's not a slacker, but Yeah. No, he's out by the well puffing a little bit. Yeah.
>> Yeah. I mean, he drinks with the men, but he's never never sherked his duty.
Not a sherker.
Yeah, Jory. Jory's a real one. That's why he had to die. George kills everyone. He's like too good for this world. Okay, so let's think here. Oh, I I'm just going to shout out in the chat.
Gemma Lannister. That is It's not my pick, but that's a great pick. That's >> That's a good one. We might have to do some honorable mentions after this.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Perhaps. Uh I just want to be be careful with my last two picks here. Um, but gosh, who am I wanna?
Uh, I'm gonna say Asha Greyjoy.
That's another really good one that I absolutely would have chosen.
>> She's just I just want to be in her presence, man.
She's so intense and she's ironborn.
like she would be the kind of person that doesn't relax often, but when she does, like that'd be cool, you know? So, >> yeah, she's she's uh trace a tomboy alt rock chick. Yeah, I I'm not surprised you're going after her. Um >> Asha Greyjoy is like she's packing a giant tube and she's putting some rosin on there and then she's hitting the whole thing and she's just looking at you and hitting it and then she clears it.
That's nice. No cough.
>> That's how I see that going down.
>> Whi which character do you see as having the sleep apnea mask and hooking it up to the to the implement?
>> That might be Arch Mr. Marwin.
>> Yeah. [laughter] >> But you've got you've got one more pick.
>> I and I am struggling. I have two people that I want to choose.
>> I've got a bonus. I've got a secret bonus round planned to give you a chance. It will it will help you. The bonus round will be to your advantage, but go ahead and see if you can pull this team out of the gutter here.
>> Oh, god damn it.
>> Um, I'm going to go with um Okay, I'm going to save that one for the bonus round. I am gonna go with Maester Leuen. That is who I was going to pick.
Downtown Clowny Brown tagged me and wrote Maester Leuen, which kind [laughter] of under underscored it. Uh, he was right. Um, that is who I wanted.
Was one of four people I wanted, but you took two of them. [snorts] So, the bonus round is Oh, I get one more pick.
Okay. Um, let's see.
Yeah, Quentyn Martell does need to chill out, but that's not my job. I'm not taking that one on. Um, and I don't trust the sand snakes, so that's out. I'm not your chill sherpa, bro.
>> I'm going to say vars.
>> Okay.
Yeah, you're just you're just trying to get information out of these people.
This is like alternative questioning.
>> I just I want interesting stories. like Vary's busted that whole thing out about the sorcerer burning his junk on the P and there's a voice and stuff. I mean, I just think and he's got the whole the shadows of power, you know, who's who's the powerful guy and he's got metaphors and he's got a sense of humor. He's wicked funny. I I think I think Vars would be a great rotation >> and he keeps swimming.
So, the bonus round is you get to pick somebody from Lord of the Rings, which is, you know, better.
>> Damn. Cuz I I was going to I was going to pick uh Now, if we can do it, I guess this is just an honorable mention. Um I wanted to do Miranda Royce.
>> That would see that would have been a better pick than about half of yours.
Yeah.
>> Um Lord of the Rings. Let's see. because there are a number of people in Lord of the Rings who are already doing it.
Um, let's be clear, Tolken liked his um, it's not marijuana pipe [clears throat] weed >> long bottom leaf.
>> Yeah. Um, [sighs] >> I feel like there are two most of these picks.
>> I'm gonna say Phamir.
>> Fair. Okay. Well, I got Tom Bombadil. So, you lose and >> Tom Bombadil was the obvious pick of man. I was just trying to give you a chance to save it. You You didn't take it.
>> Gandalf isn't the obvious pick.
>> That would would have been that would have been the other one. Either Gandalf or Tom Bombadil. Yeah.
>> Of course, any of the Hobbits.
>> I hate the Hobbit.
>> They're all on that. They grow it.
>> Yeah. Tree Beard. Okay. So, I'd I'd smoke with Tree Beard. That's the whole rotation, too. Nobody else. Just me and Tree Beard. Y'all can Tim.
>> I finished my script for Gane and the Green Knight and I was referencing Tree Beard at the very end of it.
>> Little hobbits.
Very long time to say.
So there we go. And that brings us to slightly over two hours. And so I will take last call for questions and then we'll get out of here.
>> Oh, let's let's >> Yeah, I'm not a Hobbit fan.
>> Sorry, River Mist Fay. I mean, I don't really hate them. I just think they're dumb.
They're stupid. Stupid little hobbits.
>> He's not about the whimsy.
>> Just Yeah, they have to be in there. I acknowledge that.
I'm just teasing. I'm just teasing.
They're fine. They live in dirty holes.
No, it's fine. It's fine.
>> Not a dirty, nasty wet hole.
>> Unsubscribe.
>> And that means comfort.
>> Well, Kim, did you expect us to praise G in in front of the camera?
>> Tim loves to get streams demonetized.
That's his whole thing.
By the way, shout out Greyways. Tim did a great live stream yesterday on his channel, which I hear was a real hoot.
Um, I was recording and I missed it, but you can go check out Greyways Tim channel and if one of the mods will drop the link in the chat.
I hear it was about Lovecraft and squishers and stuff.
>> Is that true, Tim?
>> Oh, I guess yeah, we do need a poll to see who did this the best. I was just I was just claiming victory. That's not very scientific. Mhm. Mhm.
>> Well, you might Yeah, you might have claimed victory in the uh the bonus round without much uh >> fair.
>> I feel like Phamir is a little bit more chilled than Borimir. And you know, >> well, between the two of them, >> well, like he'd just be like a good time with it. I I think most of the characters are a little bit too highrung except the ones who are already smoking it. Actually, you're kind of right. Fair does seem kind of baked. He's like mad chill. Yeah.
Anyway.
>> Okay. So, I'm I'm not winning, but Sean likes to smoke with jocks. Uh, >> you've got Well, first of all, you've got children in your rotation. Okay.
Edric Storm and Gendry are both underage. So, you're arrested.
>> He's nearly a man grown. Okay. All right. Right. We have different laws around this. Also, >> what if Tyrell's not even letting them in the circle? She's like, "No, >> run off to bed, children."
>> Then the circle smaller, then it's just you and Jory >> and so after she's um assisted Sir Blunt, she is okay with it because assisting Sir Blunt put her in a different mood.
>> In the reach, we don't mind a discreet little bit of buggery and that kind of thing. As long as it's chill, >> they don't care.
>> Well, that the dollar head pick is solid.
Atlantis is real. No, the green Sahara is not Atlantis. I've looked into that.
That's not it. The thing the re So, one of the reasons why Atlantis is not real is because it doesn't show up anywhere in the genes.
And that's what really kills the theory.
If there was a place like Atlantis where lots of people lived and then went to another place, you'd be able to see that imprint in the genes. Instead, what we have are protoindouropean dispersal and Anatolian farmer dispersal and more dispersals going back before that. So, you can't just pick a circle in the desert and go that's Atlantis. I think it was because the Sahara used to be, you know, less of a desert and stuff.
That's not Yeah, I looked into that one. the time when the Sahara was not a desert was so far beyond human history that Yeah. Um well it goes it goes in phases. I mean the entire thing yes but certain regions were but yeah it is it's an allegory.
Atlantis is an allegory. That's right.
>> We have uh we have almost 400 people still watching this stream. Let's see some more votes. Like I don't think I'm going to win here but can we make this like a little bit less embarrassing for me?
Greyway Tim murdered your team in the chat. I can't even repeat what he said.
>> I didn't see it. What did I miss?
>> I will say it. He said that he called your rotation an Epstein rotation. He said it's old rich people and kids.
>> Oh my god, >> that's so inappropriate. Tim >> Tim Tim is like I don't think people realize like I used to do pretty dark standup comedy. I'm holding a lot back here in order to not demonetize these streams.
>> Tim has never heard of back. He keeps it real. That's all he's heard of. Keeping >> I probably shouldn't have said that anyway.
God.
>> Oh, it's mad times that we live in, folks. It's mad times.
Yeah, most of my ro most of my rotation is like chalk, you know. Arch Master Marwin is smoking. Sierra see she's smoking. Tormund is smoking. Varys is smoking.
You know, behind the walls and stuff. Um Barristan needs to smoke. Green beard is smoking. And Asha Greyjo is just a wild card. That that's kind of how I looked at it is Edric and Gendry they need to smoke together to squash it. I'm building bridges here. It's you know a song of ice and fire is all about reconciliation and then uh you know >> if you get Arya in there now it's wholesome like the three of them smoking and yeah that's wholesome like >> well I think they both need some distance from her. They're a little bit fixated and uh you know but yeah Davos is there for vibes 100%. Edison Tallet, I don't have to defend that. Elena, she needs it. She needs to chill a little bit, but also I just want to hear her talk smack.
>> Elena is like, "No, I'm not going to hit that. I have something." And she pulls it out if she's got something better.
>> Yeah. Like she takes something prescription.
>> That's definitely a solid pick. All right. Well, so the chat Yeah. I don't see any last questions. I see mostly people having fun here.
>> This is cuz this was not what I prepared for, sir. I thought we were talking about building our own house or King's Guard or whatever. Like we were talking about on the phone and then you >> I mean I realized it was 419 and I pulled >> Boris rotation.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. They're they're all embibing and he's the one having having dreams.
your rotation would turn into everyone just listening to Dollaret and Oena talk it just like just let them go.
>> All right.
>> Well, I am claiming victory now. Where does Sansa end the series? Queen of the North. Um, we don't know. I don't know if George has decided that because he said recently he was kind of thinking about killing her off and now he might not. So >> he trolls us though. Um >> it's hard to say.
>> I tend to think she will become queen in the north.
>> You do or don't.
>> I I think she will become queen in the north.
>> I kind of think so too. It makes a lot of sense. Um, so >> it's just there also there has to be a power structure there when all of this ends. And who else is going to be that stabilizing force? It's not John.
>> Yeah, we've seen the Starks could use a little bit more in the political acumen department. Um, so hopefully they can make use of all of Sansa's unfortunate experience. Like I said, it seems perfectly set up.
Um, the north. Yeah, I see I see Westeros fragmenting. I don't see it being as unified. I see the decentralized power thing. I do think that's going to happen.
We're going to create a Senate or something. I don't know. Well, and and how many of the, you know, air quotes seven kingdoms stay as part of the realm, right? So, like if she's queen of the north, then they're not in the seven kingdoms, right?
you know, they've declared independence and, you know, and they may not be the only ones. It's it's going to get messy and they're probably better as being, you know, seven different countries and trying to maintain peace through that rather than fighting over who gets to rule all of them.
>> Yeah. It's both the way that the Iron Throne has been used as a symbol in the story. Exactly, Sean. Um, and then also the parallel to the weirwood net that we're talking about. like the weirwood net is this source of too much power that's going to have to be kind of shut down and decentralized and Bran as a king that's going to be part of his role. So I also think he's going to facilitate the sort of decentralization of Westeros political power. I think that would be cool. Um I'm not like convinced it's going to happen but I think it would be interesting.
>> Yeah. Yeah. And we we also like when we make these predictions like even if we're right, we don't necessarily know what flavor that's going to come in.
Like it a lot of the details are going to be technically the same as we saw in the show. They're just there's going to be more justification, more buildup. It just makes more sense when George does it than the rushed hack job that they put through. So um >> yeah. So I I also think we might get like a no magic ending in general, you know, like George is just putting it closing the chapter on this entire crazy, you know, existence and pushing it into more like mundane reality. So, >> well, so that's that's a huge thing in fantasy literature that has basically evolved from epic poetry cuz there has to be a way to explain like we're telling you all these stories of like Beaolf or Sigard or King Arthur or blah blah blah and they're all doing these, you know, magic impossible things, right? How did we get here where in this world where there's no magic, we believe in a a god and and we have, like you said, this mundane existence. And the idea is that you know these the great heroes of that time took out the great monsters of that time and the age of heroes ended. That's why you know George named an era the age of heroes. That's straight out of Beaolf. They say the age of heroes has ended. When Beaolf kills the green dragon and now we live in the post-magic world. Tolken did it. He he every age he deppowers his people. They become less powerful until the end when it's basically a post-magic world. Um, it's the same thing in King Arthur. It's the same thing in in Sigard. It's the same thing if you go through like um any mythology that starts to become a history or calls itself a history is going to go that way with it.
>> So, I'm glad you mentioned Beaolf. I've been meaning to ask you about this. This is a piece of art, but it is a golden dragon horn from Beaolf. Um, is there a dragon horn in fact in Beaywolf and what's the deal with it?
>> Well, there's a dragon horn in the movie and um and it is very heavily symbolic.
The people who made the animated Beaolf movie, they knew what they were talking about.
They knew the esoterica of it and it's hard to communicate the esoterica of it.
So, like one thing that we've talked about is that Grenle's mother, obviously, you know, she's a disgusting monster and she's ultra powerful and Beaolf is trying to >> again, good-looking lady is what you meant to say. Carry on.
>> Right. Well, anyway, she is representing a sexual symbolism. It is esoteric. It's not at the narrative level. So when they made her for the movie, they had they cast Angelina Jolie and did motion capture for it and they made her very sexy and they made her have a sexual relationship with Beaowolf.
And you know, a lot of people said like, "Oh, that they didn't need to do that sexual punchup. Like why didn't they just capture the original story?" And it's like, well, that's kind of what they were doing. They were just capturing the symbolic rather than the narrative level. And it I think it made for a better story.
And what's that got to do with the horn?
>> Well, this is another thing that happens is they're they're seeing the esoterica of it. When you when you talk about a it is a drinking horn. It is a horn that you blow in order to call armies or summon monsters, blah blah blah. But it's also like a the golden gift of a king. And it and it goes into several of the kennings for Beaowolf. So like the lord of those rings, the giver of gifts, uh distributor of gold, you know, him of the golden horn, you know. So like I is does he directly have a golden horn in the books I or in the original epic poem?
If he does, it's not super emphasized, but I mean probably yes. Um >> okay. So there's not necessarily some big clue about dragon binder way.
>> I don't think there's a dragon horn in the story, but again like there is a dragon and it has horns. He uses a hunting horn. He uses, you know, a drinking horn. Like all of these things are things and they are used symbolically in the epic poem. So when they combined them all into one thing and that was Rothgar's drinking horn uh that could also blow and he gives it to Beaolf.
>> I see.
>> Then it meant something. So yeah, >> Rothgar. That's a nice Ironborn name.
>> Yeah. Combining all the things. And that's the character that gets named after the most. Like if you go into Aragon, the king of the dwarves in Aragon, his name is Rothgar. It's even spelled the same. Hm. Well, that's what I've got coming for y'all. Next week is a video about the uh Man's Dragon Binder, the horn of Joraman. That's actually a dragon horn. What's the deal with that? I've got like 45 minutes of that coming. So, look out for that this week. And once again, Sean, you are working on Greek myth now on your Patreon.
>> Yeah, so the the Greek myth is on the Patreon. and I will be coming out with a video about um a lot of the stuff we were talking about earlier actually where you know the evolution of people like Pphanany and uh Poseidon and how they became the gods we're more familiar with which ones got cut which ones got added that kind of stuff where they came from. Um and then on YouTube I've actually I finished the script and I'll be filming this week of the Gain and the Green Knight Tolken King Arthur video.
>> Very good. Well, thanks for teaching us a bit about all that folklore, Sean. And with that, I will say have yourself a good weekend and once again, look out for a video about Magic Horns this week and I'll see you next Sunday.
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