What House of the Dragon Is Really Saying About Power - ASOIAF Theory

[00:00:00]Mira, I was not recording when you read out the text on the screen.

[00:00:05]>> [laughter] >> You just said it for you. But if you want TO SAY IT AGAIN FOR THE FOLKS at home, we're going now. Or would you rather talk about the New York State flag and the Teletubbies SUN THAT'S IN THE MIDDLE OF IT? WOULD YOU RATHER TALK ABOUT THAT?

[00:00:21]>> Uh I mean, that >> [laughter] >> Kamala Harris when daughter exists.

[00:00:28]>> [laughter] >> Whoa, this guy?

[00:00:32]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:00:34]>> If you If you're not on the Patreon on the from the Patreon or or the YouTube members, they get access to the outtakes. And then and and we just went on an extended bit discussing the New York State flag and how I think it's perfect because it contains a Teletubbies sun right in the middle.

[00:00:53]This is on the New York State flag.

[00:00:55]Right there, look at him. Zach, how did you characterize this guy?

[00:00:59]>> I I We went back and forth between characterizing him as a sad bachelor who who always falls back into his vices but is disappointed in himself and a disappointed disappointed himself single dad who can't do anything right by his child. And there's [laughter] no reason he can't be the both both at two points in his life.

[00:01:19]>> Yeah, this is This This man is looking at his at like his kids' report card again.

[00:01:26]>> This is This is egg.

[00:01:29]This is just his kids.

[00:01:31]>> [laughter] >> This is >> This is a dad who gave up and started doing his son's homework for him out of desperation to see that he only got worse grades.

[00:01:40]>> Dad Dad, I'm I'm running away with the wood switch. And then we shot reverse shot to egg right here.

[00:01:48]>> [laughter] >> All right.

[00:01:52]>> [laughter] >> MIRA, MIRA, YOU WANT TO read this opening quote that Zach has for us?

[00:02:01]>> Oh, it does. Spoilers for spoilers for Fire and Blood and House of the Dragon and all that.

[00:02:07]>> Wow, spoilers.

[00:02:09]You telling me that we going >> It's a deep spoiler one.

[00:02:12]>> We going to talk about House of the Dragon. Wow.

[00:02:16]Okay.

[00:02:18]Mira, do you want to read this quote?

[00:02:22]>> I do.

[00:02:23]>> Okay.

[00:02:23]>> see my sons again. And Helena, my sweet girl. Oh, and King Jaehaerys. I will read to him as I did when I was little.

[00:02:31]He used to say I had a lovely voice.

[00:02:35]>> And and >> Hi everybody.

[00:02:38]You There's no theory I tricked you were doing literary analysis again.

[00:02:41]>> Wait, what? That's [ __ ] What do you mean? We don't do that on this on this on this A Song of Ice and Fire theory channel?

[00:02:49]>> We certainly don't just occasionally pull out one that's just straight literary analysis. I'd like to talk about some of the main themes, some of the stuff that happens in Fire and Blood. And I want to compare and contrast to the show. I think that they have reinforced and really leaned into some themes. And I think they've cut some, and I think that some they've sort of like played with, but they're not fully committed on what they're going to do with them. There's a fair amount of show left, so they could come back and I could be like proven wrong, question mark? I don't want to say proven wrong.

[00:03:19]I just like maybe like they find a good way to synthesize what they've been sort of playing with versus making it a little bit more over and explicit. And I I think we all have a array of different opinions on the show. I think we all like the show to some extent. I definitely like I like A Dance with Dragons a little bit better. But like there's stuff I really like about the show. There's stuff I really truly truly love about the book.

[00:03:48]I think it's one of my favorite reads of George's. Although I do like I do think I like the Dunk and Egg novels a little bit better, but I do love the book a lot. So, I want to talk about like let's all go through and what do we get out of the book and what are we getting out of the show and let's talk about the difference and as something to talk about says I stole that from you.

[00:04:07]And like let's go over how those themes are introduced and like I I just sort of want to do a book report. If that's allowed.

[00:04:17]>> Oh, yeah.

[00:04:18]>> Okay.

[00:04:19]>> What?

[00:04:20]>> [laughter] >> What do you mean what? I think it's fair. Let's talk about let's talk about >> What do you mean what? It's 11:15 p.m.

[00:04:27]in the evening. We've been giggling about a son for an hour and 10 minutes and you're telling me I now need to think about themes. Zach, I'm going to throw a quote on the board. Quote, themes are for eighth grade book reports.

[00:04:45]>> [laughter] >> Is that from D&D?

[00:04:48]>> David Benioff.

[00:04:50]>> [laughter] >> A great great person to cite for your argument.

[00:04:54]>> I don't I don't respect themes. You know that.

[00:04:58]>> [laughter] >> What about What about motifs?

[00:05:04]>> [laughter] >> YEAH.

[00:05:05]OH [snorts] MY GOD.

[00:05:06]>> OKAY, NO THEMES. Just motifs.

[00:05:08]>> Yes, it's just >> [laughter] >> God God forbid a show be about something.

[00:05:14]>> Oh my god.

[00:05:16]>> You're so vain. You probably think the show IS ABOUT SOMETHING. [laughter] >> WE GOT THE top tier references today, everybody.

[00:05:29]>> You know you won me over with your so vain reference.

[00:05:32]>> [laughter] >> Zach, I'm going to I'll start, okay? Do I >> I almost called I almost called the the cover of my D&D campaign campus clouds in my coffee, which was the name in my head of the uh uh cafe. I love your Selene a lot uh more than I should.

[00:05:50]>> That's that um I really I love >> [laughter] >> I love that part in FINAL FANTASY VII.

[00:05:58]>> [laughter] >> WAIT.

[00:06:00]WAIT.

[00:06:02]WAIT.

[00:06:03]YOU HAVEN'T PLAYED THAT.

[00:06:05]>> You're right. I was actually just recording Oh, I should note this. In the description uh there's a new channel I started with my friend Mike we talked about Delta.

[00:06:13]>> No, come on. We got to We're so deep nothing's happened in the video yet. The viewer attention's going to be ass. You got to plug it later. We need to do something before >> I'm really worried for Allison who's [ __ ] dying.

[00:06:27]WE CAN READ THAT.

[00:06:28]>> WAIT. YOU KNOW WHAT THIS MEANS?

[00:06:29]>> This is what Sephiroth says.

[00:06:33]>> Sephiroth uh no, this means the Westerosi's believe in heaven.

[00:06:38]>> Oh my god. What?

[00:06:40]>> Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[00:06:41]>> That's It's weird.

[00:06:42]>> Oh, yeah. I guess it does.

[00:06:45]>> Yeah, like there's no like the Targaryens don't believe in heaven.

[00:06:49]>> But but Allison Allison seems to believe she's going to heaven.

[00:06:54]>> Yeah, is it Well, and so like the The first men like go into the trees and stuff, but not everybody does that. So like what does the Seven have something to say about heaven?

[00:07:07]>> We We never really know like we know the Stranger uh kills you and but like he does it very respectfully. He He takes you out of life in a way that's very like not not comforting, but not like horrifyingly hellish. He He lets you pass on in a way that has meaning and some amount of closure.

[00:07:28]Uh Yeah.

[00:07:31]>> Hm.

[00:07:32]>> Uh >> Interesting.

[00:07:33]>> Yeah, that's that's very odd um because >> Wait. And um because also in this book uh when they kill um Larys he said when they offered to send him to war, he said if it's all the same to you, I'd rather go to a warmer hell.

[00:07:49]>> Um yeah.

[00:07:50]>> they do have hell.

[00:07:52]>> The seven hells, right?

[00:07:54]>> Yeah.

[00:07:54]>> Seven hells. And and Larys seems to believe he's going to hell and then for that I do agree.

[00:08:00]Uh >> Um Uh >> Larys Larys seems very aware he's going to hell or at the very least if there is a place he's going, he knows he's narrowed it down to which one.

[00:08:11]>> I'll be going to a warmer hell if you please.

[00:08:15]>> Such a baller line.

[00:08:17]>> Yeah, it's so good.

[00:08:19]These books are good as it turns out.

[00:08:21]>> These books are good. It's a shame the guy who got the best line is like Mr. Crimes Against Humanity.

[00:08:26]>> [laughter] >> Uh >> Allegedly. We don't know. He could be really cool. The show seems to think he's Mr. Crimes Against Humanity.

[00:08:38]>> Oh my god.

[00:08:42]I'm going to scream.

[00:08:45]Uh okay.

[00:08:48]All right.

[00:08:49]Mira, you go ahead then I got some pitches.

[00:08:53]>> Okay. I mean that was really the only thing that stood out to me.

[00:08:57]>> Okay.

[00:08:58]>> want to do your pitches.

[00:08:59]>> I So yeah, is it am I supposed to is it is the purpose of this is the purpose of this business to list themes? I can do that. I'm good at listing things.

[00:09:10]>> Go go for it, yeah. Tom name a Tom name a theme.

[00:09:13]>> Um >> [laughter] >> The one of the themes of The Dance of the Dragons um is is ready ready for this crazy hot take, monarchy bad.

[00:09:29]>> One of the classic George R.R. Martin.

[00:09:30]>> Yeah, right. I think this is a fair statement. Would you guys agree?

[00:09:35]>> Yeah.

[00:09:36]>> I'm going to do I'm going to do a video someday and I want to put a lot more thought and care into it like you did with your like highly polished edited video, Tom.

[00:09:45]>> I wish anybody had watched it.

[00:09:47]>> I'm same, but like you make the video for you, right? You make the video cuz it's itching at the back of your brain.

[00:09:52]And I have one where like a lot of people say like uh talking about like monarchy and feudalism and comparing it to our modern structures uh is an imperfect thing to do, but like that's what George is clearly doing.

[00:10:10]George is not writing George thinks monarchy bad, but what George means by that is like uh governments without the consent of the governed, governments that ignore the the people in it bad. And like I I think they're I would draw for monarchy bad, autocracy bad, but also like uh the small fo small folk do not care for the petty squabblings of the lords is such a huge theme here.

[00:10:36]It's like the small folk just want a government that works. They want a good government.

[00:10:42]Uh and the the idea of like representing the in standing up for the weakest in society is a common good is a like theme that is in all the books.

[00:10:55]That's that's Dunk and Egg. That's in Fire and Blood, and that is all over the main series as well. Uh yeah, they don't care what the high lords are doing. They want a government that does good things for them. Uh we get that in the books with the Starks talking like the Starks of the north made it safe and uh protected all the people, and there was no war and violence and uh horrible things that the like Boltons were doing is a something that's hammered home a lot. And uh I mean, the storming of the Dragon Pit is like the most like on-the-nose you you played your games with deadly toys and the ordinary people rose up and did something about it. It is the most revolutionary thing ever depicted in one of these books directly.

[00:11:45]>> It's pretty It's pretty gnarly.

[00:11:47]>> Uh it's also like incredible. Yeah.

[00:11:50]>> [laughter] >> It's all It also rocks.

[00:11:51]>> Yeah.

[00:11:53]Uh uh let's let's let's bring down the nuclear silo is a pretty cool scene.

[00:11:59]>> [laughter] >> So it's but it's both the storming of the Bastille and Chernobyl. Uh yeah.

[00:12:06]>> It's It's Chernobyl but they got the good ending where they killed the radiation with sticks.

[00:12:10]>> See, you know what I really like is the suffering of the common people is something highlighted by the Duncan Egg the fellow's.

[00:12:16]Um but also um uh Kool-Aid Man scene.

[00:12:24]Kool-Aid Man scene.

[00:12:26]You ever think of that?

[00:12:28]Wasn't it cool when that when that dragon broke in through the floor? That was pretty cool.

[00:12:32]>> So I actually like wrote a whole defense of that.

[00:12:36]>> Oh, okay. I'm ready.

[00:12:38]>> Yeah, this was like gosh, like 2 years ago I did this and so I haven't revisited these talking points in a while. Um but it Oh, shoot. It was about It was foreshadowing and it was also um displaying Rhaenys's disregard for the the small folk um that she displayed mercy when it came to like her kin, like the cousins, but absolutely no regard for like the people she killed when coming up through the floor.

[00:13:11]Um there's also the imagery of um the Targ- the purported Targaryen king being rejected by the sigil of his house, like the red dragon um coming up out of the floor like being ridden by someone who's not him or part of his entourage. Uh there was another um I don't know. I've been teasing this episode 9 video for like 2 years now. I still have it. It's like not edited. I was using an older video editor.

[00:13:43]Speaking of software that we realized we weren't bad at something, it was just like the UI was bad. Um but yeah, like I I think is it Is it perfect? No. Is it like a defensible and reasonable choice? I think so.

[00:14:00]>> Um >> That's That's kind of where I feel with the shows that they've made a lot of interesting choices and they've got a lot of time to do things with those choices. And And one of the things actually one of the other things I want to throw in the corner here that you sold me on Mira specifically is uh uh George says he is influenced a lot by Shakespeare and you are right and you're the first person I've heard say it that the show is influenced by Shakespearean farce, right? Like the the idea of farce that Shakespeare had. Uh where we are getting scenes that are maybe a little more over the top, uh plot lines that like heat up and get introduced very quickly and start paying off very quickly. And it's all over Shakespeare and that is why people either love or hate Shakespeare. His plot elements just hit you like a Mack truck. Uh and he makes no apology for it. Uh and I think that that like uh um is in here as well. I think that it deserves its own corner, like maybe in the bottom right, like Shakespearean farce is in here and I think they preserved that very well. And uh definitely that's in the text of the book, too. There's stuff where uh uh yeah, it's very well Shakespeare's very well ingrained in George's writing and like elements of societal like like the societal elements of a lot of farce. They have a lot of very heightened moments where things happen that are almost too ridiculous to believe. In the books we get that through what you call it mushrooms perspective usually.

[00:15:31]>> Yeah.

[00:15:33]>> Then that's that's the other thing talk about the one of the things didn't get brought back brought in but like I want to talk about that too. Sorry I wanted to throw that one in there.

[00:15:41]Uh because I feel like we're getting these messages from a very heightened piece of text, right? We're getting a very heightened like we're throwing big themes at you and we make no apology for it. Instead of giving this time to simmer, this story is going to have more bombastic moments. And I I have a complaints about that. I've cooled on it a little bit. I think that that as a way of storytelling kind of works for this story.

[00:16:10]>> Damn girl, you throwing some big themes at me.

[00:16:13]>> [laughter] >> Yeah, and I and I think I think what people were maybe reacting to in the moment was like they could have fumbled it in a beyond the wall kind of fashion where it's like oh there's the the dragon zombie comes out of the lake and I wonder what's up with that and and like it just it didn't make any sense. They just wanted to have like the the zombie dragon element that like there it it didn't actually do anything.

[00:16:46]Versus I think Rhaenys's moment like it shows a lot about her character and also like the people's attitudes toward the house and toward dragons.

[00:17:01]Um you know, and it I don't know. I I feel like >> No, I I I feel like thematically it it lifted it's lifting a lot more. It's carrying a lot more.

[00:17:11]>> They're like they're they're they're throwing their themes out loudly and proudly and like they make no apology for it and I feel like that scene much as I mocked it and look I still think posting this gift from Shrek is really funny. I want to I want to point out that the the dragon from Shrek bursting through uh into this place for that scene is really funny and you should keep posting those gifts.

[00:17:34]Uh but like uh I I agree that it does serve a thematic purpose and that uh they they do seem to have like an idea of where they're going there. And if they tie that back well into like the storming of the dragon pit, I'm a happy guy.

[00:17:50]>> Yeah. Yeah, because like you know, if you think about it, like the the common people who were there >> Sorry, we're about to we're about to get into the pronunciation of gif. Uh sorry to cut you off.

[00:18:03]I'm not going to allow that slander to stay unmentioned.

[00:18:06]>> [laughter] >> Sorry, Mary. Continue.

[00:18:09]>> Oh, um I was just uh I was thinking yeah, exactly in terms of the storming of the dragon pit. It makes a lot more sense for like the rubble to have been created uh by a dragon coming out because like [clears throat] the dragon pit as it's first presented to us, like how are a bunch of people going to to get in?

[00:18:29]Whereas like the destruction's already been started and people have a bone to pick at this point, right? You know, like you have people who now lost loved ones before the war is even started. Um a a bone a bone to pick as it were.

[00:18:46]>> I >> [laughter] >> I like if it comes back where with the rubble that is on there, like uh is like literally thrown at the dragons, right?

[00:18:54]Like the the way they get in is through the hole that was made. I think that is pretty clever. And then you're doing kind of an inversion of your like small thing is set up, big thing pays off where uh big thing has a uh kind of ironic little tail end used to it that informs another big thing. There's this little ironic connection uh in that the throwing it back to the bottom corner again. That's Shakespeare, baby. Oh, man, your first act thing bringing some irony to the final act is definitely something that he did, too.

[00:19:28]>> I I remember Um, I I I drew out like a sketch of the dragon pit again as it's presented to us in the show.

[00:19:37]Um, so she had three options when she went down to get her dragon. Um, option one is she sneaks out through like the back door where we see people flying in.

[00:19:48]Uh, option two, she comes up that ramp, right, that we see in uh, the pink dread incident, that ramp.

[00:19:56]Um, but the dais that that uh, Aegon is on is on top of the ramp. So, option three is coming up through the floor, sparing Aegon, and killing the small folk, but because she wants everyone to see that she's leaving, right?

[00:20:12]So, it's it's it's uh, you know, it like someone who cares about everybody's safety and well-being will take the back door exit even if that means no one is going to see the exit. And someone who cares about causing the least amount of destruction even if it means, you know, killing a family member would go up the ramp. And Rhaenys chose the third one, which does tell us something about her character and her feelings toward the people and her plans. Cuz she and Rhaenyra kind of share this of like they have some good values, but also like [ __ ] the common people.

[00:20:47]>> The there is there is a fair amount of this, yes.

[00:20:50]There's a fair amount like that I think that there that that Rhaenyra is struggling with, which I think is interesting. Uh, uh, and I think we could probably list this as its own like section.

[00:21:06]Um Uh Uh political players political players often struggle with how much to care about the average person.

[00:21:26]Is this a fair statement?

[00:21:27]>> Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[00:21:28]>> Right? This is This is one of the things we talk about in the story.

[00:21:32]>> And and like they're also like uh great examples in the main series, too. Like Tyrion actually seems to give a [ __ ] about the average person.

[00:21:40]Uh and it ruins his life uh because they don't give a [ __ ] about him.

[00:21:45]Uh and I I I think he always assumed that it would be uh rewarded for trying to give some amount of [ __ ] about the small folk.

[00:21:54]Uh he he does his damndest to save King's Landing, succeeds, and is rewarded for it by being branded like this monster for something he did not do. Uh and Rhaenyra might arguably be similar. Like by doing one big uh attack with all the dragons where they show up with an overwhelming force at King's Landing and force everybody out, she spares a battle that would surely have killed a bunch of innocent people.

[00:22:24]Like she puts all of her dragons at risk if they had a strategy to deal with them. Uh they could have lost all their dragons at once to try and overwhelmingly take King's Landing in a way that has no bloodshed. Uh which I think will be commented on in the show.

[00:22:37]Like like they want uh um Oh, yeah, she feeds them, too. And uh she uh the like she's [ __ ] trying. She's trying, I think, in a way that it like is not sustainable and not always going to work out, might not be reflected in the public opinion, but like there's clearly something she's struggling with.

[00:22:55]>> Yeah, well, and it's it's something that I think she is now finally starting to do because so like if you remember um season 1 episode 4 when she goes out with Damon, she's like, "Well, they don't have to like it.

[00:23:07]I'm going to be the queen." And he's like, "You know, that's really not a great way to govern." And so now it it was Mysaria's idea to send the food packages to the people, you know, knowing now that the city has been cut off. So like I wonder I wonder how much Rhaenyra is actually going to internalize like how much of it is Mysaria doing things on Rhaenyra's behalf.

[00:23:32]You know, and like if when schism between Rhaenyra and Mysaria like if if Rhaenyra is going to revert to, "But I'm the queen cuz I said so."

[00:23:45]>> Mhm. A very interesting.

[00:23:47]Um What do we think the Now now uh there is a certain amount of theming in A Song of Ice and Fire and the not very good dragon show uh about like individuals I guess reverting to their nature.

[00:24:06]Right? Like the nature of one's family and oneself that I have not found to be incredibly present in House of the Dragon or Fire and Blood. What do you guys think?

[00:24:20]>> This is one of the things I wanted to talk about some of the themes they do pick up and like some of the ones they drop. I have one more that they're definitely still using and I have two that they drop. And and one of them that we have not seen too much so far, but I think that I don't say it's dropped.

[00:24:35]It's not as present or at least it's not as present yet and it could pick up in this season. That's why I hesitate to say it's dropped. We've gotten hints of it. But it's like there's like a power corrupts or a power drives you mad sort of thing that's definitely Danny. Danny is the ultimate like driven mad by the uh at least in the bad dragon show, driven mad by all things she had to do to get what she wanted, uh which uh unfortunately in the show they decided to do in 5 minutes instead of five seasons.

[00:25:03]But like that's definitely I think a theme we're supposed to see in the books and there's definitely other examples in the books of people who in pursuing what they think they want find out that they've actually just sort of wrecked their life about it. And that is I think in the books very much a theme of Rhaenyra and Alicent and that's why I put this Alicent quote in the middle.

[00:25:24]Alicent in pursuing what she wants or what she believes she wants actually sort of takes away all the things she really wants. And I do think we will see them a little bit more. I think it's just been a little side stepped. It has to if it's going to be in there up here in the later bits as well. Uh >> Oh, I I don't think so. I think >> Oh.

[00:25:43]>> Yeah, this is this is Corlys's whole thing.

[00:25:47]>> Oh yeah, you know that's true. It's definitely Corlys is still getting that arc there. I feel like we uh have there's some other people I wish we leaned into that a wee bit more. It's just so hard we have so many characters to spend time with.

[00:26:01]>> Uh Zach, I think I think I might disagree with you directly cuz this is this is this is Daemon's bit and Otto's bit and and Corlys's bit and the whole the whole thing is those three well not not those three exclusively but that generation passing on their terrible traits to the next generation.

[00:26:21]>> You know, that's fair.

[00:26:22]>> And I don't I don't think Rhaenyra shares this but I think that we might start seeing this from um uh Aegon II.

[00:26:34]>> Yeah, that's fair. I guess I I have I would like to see it more with Alicent and Rhaenyra because they're the it like core emotional part of the show and I do feel like that is in the books for sure.

[00:26:47]I I think you're supposed to get that from both Alicent uh dying sad and alone and also Rhaenyra uh losing everything and uh getting eaten by a dragon. Uh I got those similar themes that we're definitely getting with Corlys and >> What? You're after it, like absolutely got that with Corlys Velaryon.

[00:27:05]>> So uh >> What happens to Rhaenyra?

[00:27:07]>> Oh, she uh wait, it's in that's in the right >> [laughter] >> It's one spoiler that everybody should already know.

[00:27:19]>> So I was I was going to say that uh in terms of like, you know, absolute power corrupting absolutely, that there is a theme of like the reason that one is seeking power. Uh so I want to like bring Stannis into this mix. Uh we all love good King Stannis.

[00:27:34]>> You love Stannis.

[00:27:35]>> Uh he has that that conversation with we stan Stannis.

[00:27:38]Um that conversation with Davos where he was like, I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom when I should have been saving the kingdom to win the throne.

[00:27:48]So we see some characters decide to abstain because it's for the betterment of the realm. Like Maester Aemon could have brought the kingdom down around everybody's ears and said, "No, I'm Aegon's older brother. I actually don't want to be a maester anymore."

[00:28:04]Um Aemon could have started a civil war.

[00:28:06]Rhaenys could have started a civil war when uh you know, Viserys was made the heir.

[00:28:14]Um And so uh like we see these people, you know, even if they do arguably have a birthright, they're you know, deciding not to do it. We see um Aegon the Second almost do this. You know, he's like, "Fuck it. I don't want this.

[00:28:34]You know, let me go." And so he's he's like kind of the Stannis's Wario.

[00:28:41]>> Wow.

[00:28:43]>> Uh and doesn't want it, does it anyway, and does nothing, you know, for the betterment of the people, just like, you know, kills all the rat catchers for funsies. Um, takes everything super personally. Um, and and sorry, there was also something you said about Oh, um, Allison and Rhaenyra. Again, I know a lot of people took issue with that scene of Rhaenyra sneaking in uh, to the sept, which I have a great breakdown about in the last actual edited video that I ever put out, um, which everybody should go watch. It's very good. Um, that the conversation she has with Alicent is great because both of them have hit a point where like they don't they want to throw the brakes on everything that's happening, but because of all these years that they've put into their sons, like all of their [ __ ] and that Daemon and Otto have been instilling, that it's kind of it's it's it's gotten out of control. Like, there's nothing Alicent can do to stop Aegon now. Um, you know, there's nothing Rhaenyra can do to rein in Daemon. So, anyway, that was I know that was like three things, but >> [laughter] >> Uh, no, I think that that that's another um, what is it uh, uh, like the problems we cause can become uh, uh, too large to be stopped.

[00:30:17]Uh, the problems we cause and grudges we hold um, is this Romeo and Juliet?

[00:30:34]Is this the Is this Is this Is this the the the Capricorns and the Libras or whatever they're called?

[00:30:41]>> The Capulets and Montagues.

[00:30:42]>> That's right.

[00:30:42]>> Yeah, and and so like like this yeah, it's it's a tragic farce of like we have the the dramatic irony perspective of the audience. So like we're seeing both sides, but you know, they are operating with you know, the limited information that they have. And so we see time and time again things that could have been prevented with a simple conversation. So you know, in a way that conversation between Allison and Rhaenyra kind of pulls the curtain back on that and subverts the trope a little bit because it's like they are having the sensible conversation, but they're doing it too late.

[00:31:19]>> Yeah.

[00:31:20]>> Um and I I I just I love it. It's delicious.

[00:31:22]>> That seems pretty sick.

[00:31:24]>> Yeah.

[00:31:24]>> It it is like fully in farce mode at that point. You do it to like spend your disbelief a little bit. Uh we don't unfortunately get the metal metal ear solid scene sneaking in, which would have been amazing, but it is still a very good scene.

[00:31:38]>> Honestly, I feel I feel robbed.

[00:31:40]>> I know I do I just when I when my complaint is I wish there was another even cooler scene attached to it. You showed it something right.

[00:31:48]>> [laughter] >> Yeah.

[00:31:48]>> Yeah, well, I will say I will say in season 1 episode 4 we see Rhaenyra wandering around in the city in a costume and nobody recognizes her except Harwin cuz she like physically runs into him. Um she hasn't been in the city in ages.

[00:32:03]>> Oh, yes.

[00:32:04]>> Uh and the city isn't closed yet.

[00:32:07]So like >> not I'm not I'm not saying um actually it's super unrealistic. I'm saying if you're going to do something cool, I want to see it.

[00:32:15]And that scene would have been rad as hell.

[00:32:17]>> [laughter] >> and the thing is I'm arguing that it was like relatively mundane and relatively easy because like we saw her and Rhaenys both go through the city with their hair covered and nobody literally nobody noticed, you know?

[00:32:28]>> Yeah, that's fair.

[00:32:30]Uh I don't know. My my my thought is if I can imagine a cool scene, you as a showrunner can take a swing at it. I don't dispute that they might have tried that and it just didn't connect as much cuz they've already established that. At the same time, like it's a minor minor gripe.

[00:32:51]>> [laughter] >> Everybody got so Everybody got so hyped about it.

[00:33:00]>> Zack, you got to roll with the bits.

[00:33:02]Mira's doing a different bit. All right, I got to do I got to do, you know, the people on the internet have very short attention spans, so I have to do a visual bit while I'm while while Rhaenyra Wait, while while Hang on. While Mira's talking >> You don't need to just pull up video of Subway Surfers. You're good.

[00:33:19]>> Hang on, I'll draw Subway Surfers. There you go. Hang on, just give me one of these and I'll just draw Subway Surfers.

[00:33:24]Go ahead.

[00:33:25]>> You put some I was going to I was going to say for the rest of the [laughter] run of House of the Dragon, I will be requiring everybody to address me as Rhaenyra.

[00:33:34]>> Rhaenyra Rhaenyra Targaryen.

[00:33:38]>> [laughter and gasps] >> What was I going to say?

[00:33:41]As well well Tom is drawing Subway Surfers.

[00:33:46]There there is another theme that I feel like they've like kind of occasionally winked at but have not fully like committed to, which is my favorite theme in the book.

[00:33:58]And like I think that my my biggest beef in the show is that they haven't taken a big swing at this yet. And that's the theme of historical ambiguity.

[00:34:07]Which which I love which I love about the book. It's my favorite aspect of it.

[00:34:12]And I'm not saying they've done zero things there. They've done some wonderful things.

[00:34:17]Where where they've made explicit something that's remembered a different way.

[00:34:22]Larys's family dying in a unpredictable accident is very explicitly shown to have been a murder attempt. We have other like winks at the camera about this where it's going to go down in the history books different than what how it actually occurred.

[00:34:38]Uh but like I don't know. We we don't get the we don't get as much of the it's written down different ways by different people. Not that I would say that we have zero of it. Uh I don't know.

[00:34:49]Will disagree or >> Um so I think some of it is like the limitation of the medium. Um and so one reason I liked the like the idea of adapting this into television is that, you know, you can't You can't really [ __ ] up from the source material if you have these options that are kind of all canonical. Um you know, there are some instances that I I think they pull it off of like the the heir for a day. We don't actually hear Damon say it. Um you know, so like it could have been somber. Like he could have been like laugh crying about it, you know. So we don't we don't know how it was delivered.

[00:35:36]Um also like the whole the whole Damon hallucinating at Harrenhal, like we know that there was maybe a witch there, but it's like was she even real?

[00:35:46]Like you know, none of that none of that's in the history books.

[00:35:51]Um >> I you know And I and I don't know how I would have expected them to take a crack at it, but like I don't know. In my brain I thought there could be like a clue sort of element there where we occasionally see things from like, you know, maybe this is how it happened, right? That's how it happened.

[00:36:05]Uh which is probably too much to ask the show for. But like I don't know. I feel like there was occasional like ways they could have done that. I'm not uh sold on it, but I think that also like that allows them to give more time to different things.

[00:36:17]Uh I do feel like there could have been like an information warfare aspect that like got played up a little bit more in addition to that to like get some of the ambiguity. I also feel like we might get that. I feel like the dragon seeds are a good setup to explore that theme also because we're going to have people in so many disparate locations, we might get like mixed signals. So many might there might be unclear if Q and Alf are starting a revolt or not at first. So I feel like there's potential to touch on this theme. I'll be very happy if they do because that like I feel like could be one of the best some of the best parts of the show is Rhaenyra getting conflicting information about who to trust and who's betraying her and who's on her side.

[00:37:00]>> Damn girl, you got potential to touch on this theme.

[00:37:04]Yeah.

[00:37:05]Well, and so I think >> [laughter] >> I think we are going to start seeing more of that between Miss Arya and um Larys Strong. You know, that we have these like two competing spymasters now.

[00:37:23]So but I think some of it like going back to that Shakespearean dramatic irony saying is that like you you you you can't have it both ways. There's some of you know, you create the dramatic irony by showing the audience something that some of the characters are not privy to. So you can have that element of like incomplete information from a character perspective, but it's a lot harder to keep the audience in the dark from everything without like while also telling a story that can be followed and maintaining these elements of dramatic irony. Like it's a you get you have to trade off a bit.

[00:38:04]>> Yeah, I think that and to to do those big Shakespearean moments, you have to make things more explicit, which means that you can't have ambiguity in a lot of these things.

[00:38:13]And I suppose that is a trade-off and that's fair. I think there's ways that they could do it. I just I like that theme and I just want to talk about the book now cuz the book a lot. It it's so smart. It's such a smart idea to include in your book uh that I like uh genuinely a ton to have uh you know, we've read non-fiction before.

[00:38:36]We've read historical stuff. Everybody here went to school. We know like oh, we're drawing off of this source uh and all that. And the idea of and and sometimes old sources are unreliable, having that be a tentpole of your book of your fictional history of well, the Septon uh you know, makes things all religious and Mushroom uh implies that everybody had a massive dong because it was told as a comedy.

[00:39:01]And then the other one is written by the Maesters, but like they seem to have cut out a ton of extremely relevant information and don't want to comment on it. And it seems like it may have been censored. Like that's like that's such a unique blend of perspectives uh that like >> Pliny the Elder >> [clears throat] >> Yeah, yeah, yeah, Pliny the Elder.

[00:39:22]Yes, exactly.

[00:39:24]>> uh he where he's got uh like Pliny's opinions are all over this thing. Pliny's got opinions and you're going to hear them. uh uh That's one of my favorite Sam O'Nella videos. Possibly the best one ever. Uh Yeah. Uh >> Yeah.

[00:39:46]>> I got like and I'm not saying the show like needs to adapt that part of it. I don't know. I just like that a lot. Uh we're talking about the show I like a fair amount uh and a book I really truly love uh and I don't think that like uh I would uh be mad at either of them for what they're doing.

[00:40:06]Uh but like I just I don't know like how do you take that swing? How do you adapt that? I feel like that uh like we know we got what?

[00:40:14]This how many seasons left? A season and change or two seasons or something like that? Is it three or four?

[00:40:19]>> Two two full seasons left.

[00:40:20]>> Two full seasons, okay.

[00:40:22]So, >> Okay.

[00:40:23]>> like you you've got time to introduce some more themes. And you've got time to develop some themes into like a broader statement, right? That That one I feel like you've done a couple things like um uh a a big part of uh I'm I'm losing my train of thought and I'm getting all the uh Targaryen uh names mixed up and um Valyrian names mixed up.

[00:40:50]Uh uh like There was a >> We've We've lost uh >> There was another There was another moment. Hm?

[00:41:05]>> Oh, I know I It was It's like like Laenor not actually being dead, right?

[00:41:10]Like that That could lead to some ambiguity later if he shows back up.

[00:41:15]>> As Tom we speculated that.

[00:41:17]>> I'm sorry. Yeah, I've I've checked it I'm drawing I'm sorry I'm drawing Jon Snow playing Subway Surfers.

[00:41:22]>> Uh uh Tom, you had a show-specific theory that we should revisit cuz it would probably happen this season.

[00:41:27]Yeah, Laenor coming back.

[00:41:30]>> Yeah, hell yeah, absolutely. Uh Laenor coming back as uh Trumbo.

[00:41:35]>> That would introduce it some like historical ambiguity, right? If he was >> him.

[00:41:40]>> written to be dead, people went to his funeral.

[00:41:43]Uh and then he shows back up.

[00:41:46]>> So, here's my my theory again thinking about uh instead of telling us about people's character showing us their character that Rhaenyra much like Rhaenys has an amount of care for her family members but has no care for the small folk and so she's Laenor wants to leave. I think that is the last we see of Laenor and the reason that we saw him leave in that way was to demonstrate that Rhaenyra was fine killing a random innocent man servant.

[00:42:21]You know, to pose as Laenor's corpse.

[00:42:24]So, that she wouldn't be a kinslayer.

[00:42:27]You know, but like it it still shows like a a lack of concern, you know, for that guy and that guy's family. Like, you know, at least when uh uh at least when Wyman Manderly did it, it was like a guy who was already going to be executed and like had been convicted of like a capital crime.

[00:42:46]Uh But, yeah. So, like I I think it's just that because we know um somebody else is writing Seasmoke now.

[00:42:57]>> I I have said many times and will say again that I I would consider it actual bad writing if we the audience never see Laenor again.

[00:43:10]Uh that is one of the most beautiful, perfect Chekhov's guns that ever I have seen or written into a fantasy story. He's there. He's ready for us. He has a reason to come back. He's just like the Hound, right? People are like, "No, give the Hound his peaceful retirement." I'm like, "No, you set him up. You showed him to us. If he doesn't come back, that's bad writing. That's just You wrote something in just for the audience."

[00:43:42]>> But, what it is, it's for the audience to know that he gets to rest in peace rather than being dead on the side of the road. He gets >> that's great for Laenor. Resting in peace while two of his adopted children are dead.

[00:43:55]Oh, that's great for him. I hope he enjoys his retirement, [ __ ] [ __ ] >> I think he's already dead and that's why Seasmoke is back.

[00:44:02]>> Then he died off screen and that also sucks.

[00:44:05]>> I mean, you can't kill me. It's hard to laugh ever since we talked about the Teletubbies song.

[00:44:09]>> That's great. [laughter] Oh, I'm so glad, Lenore. I'm so glad that you get a peaceful, easy retirement now that your kids been eaten, you [ __ ] >> What I'm What I'm saying is, like, it's effectively the same like for the story that he leaves the story whether Rhaenyra kills him or fakes his death.

[00:44:28]But, what I'm saying is the reasoning added that is not because they planned for him to come back, but to demonstrate about Rhaenyra's character. Again, this kind of short-sighted, you know, I'll do some grand gesture to save an individual blood kin family member of mine with no regard for the safety of anybody outside of that family. Just like Rhaenys with her busting up through the floor, killing all those innocent people to save Aegon the Second, you know.

[00:44:59]>> Listen, I I'm I Before we get too deep into this, I want everybody to know that I am going to die on this hill, and I I have been willing to die on this hill since I saw that scene. I have argued Everyone I've ever talked to about it has argued with me about it. However, I even >> I'm leaning towards you, but I respect that you have picked this completely unnecessary hill to proudly die on.

[00:45:25]>> Even if I agree with you, Mira, and then let's say that I do, I would still have I would still keep the same point that that would make Lenore one of the coolest and most interesting characters in the entire show exist 100% purely as a plot device for Rhaenyra's character. He never has agency in any of the things he does ever.

[00:45:49]Uh and I would also consider that bad writing.

[00:45:53]>> I mean, arguably that is what he does in the book. So, >> I mean, and that's that's fine, right?

[00:45:59]But, like but he's not a character in the book.

[00:46:02]But he's he's a >> But he is.

[00:46:04]>> He he's a footnote. But everyone in the >> But he's kind of a footnote in the show, too.

[00:46:09]>> Yeah, and writing a footnote into your fantasy show and then developing that footnote and having them exist only as a footnote is I would argue not great writing. You have wasted our time developing Laenor's character and then call and then he flutters away, never to be seen again.

[00:46:29]He flutters off. It's It's just It's like Meera Reed in the show. It's like Meera Reed in the show. You develop this character. She exists purely as a plot device for Bran and then she flutters off. Literally, we never see her again after the finale Well, like season 7 episode 2 or something.

[00:46:44]Just gone.

[00:46:45]>> With With seeking his death, it was his intent to leave and never come back. And like we know where he was going. We know what his plan was. Whereas with Meera, it was just like, "Okay, thanks. Bye."

[00:46:57]Like there was no you know, we don't know where she went or why or with who. With Laenor, we have answers to all of those questions.

[00:47:06]>> We have speculation on all of those questions.

[00:47:10]We know that he sailed off into the wilderness.

[00:47:14]Oh, man. And And oh, at the end >> went back to continue fighting in the Stepstones cuz he said like that was the last time he felt like joy or whatever.

[00:47:21]So he took his boyfriend >> So, you're telling >> in the Stepstones. Okay, that To be fair, that that to me reinforces he'll come back as Black Trombone, uh implied pirate mercenary who enjoys fighting uh uh like >> So, explain So, explain Seasmoke then cuz I I don't hate that. If you can explain Seasmoke.

[00:47:41]>> The Well, the The explanation for Seasmoke is the only information we've ever gotten that dragons can take one rider and exactly one rider at a time has been given to us by the maesters who we know are full of [ __ ] >> Yeah.

[00:47:54]>> Right. The only The only The only thing we have to suggest that is Fire and Blood in the World of Ice and Fire and the Fire and Blood Fire and Blood in the World of Ice and Fire were not written by dragon writers.

[00:48:06]>> Okay.

[00:48:06]>> also like to I'd also like to additionally uh throw in there uh HBO dragon show doesn't seem to believe that about dragons.

[00:48:13]Uh cuz Jon Snow Jon Snow is able to ride a dragon. Now Dany's might be a special weird edge case, but maybe some of these other dragons are special weird edge cases. Dragon magic is something we don't have a full complete picture >> of. Yeah, there's there's >> I figured it out. I cracked the dragon thing. Everybody go watch my uh Three Heads Has the Dragon >> Yes, do it. Do it. It is great. But like I I think I think that that like we as a fandom It's just to step out of this like character I'm doing right now. I am not as passionate about any of this as I am claiming to be right now, okay? Let's just get that on the record. However, going back to my stupid Colbert uh like no, [ __ ] there is nothing in any of the text to to confirm for me in any way that a human or a dragon cannot willingly break a bond.

[00:49:07]Uh like like I don't know what like they've been apart for what what is it? 8 years or something?

[00:49:14]Uh does does a bond weaken over time? We have no idea.

[00:49:21]Uh I I don't see any reason why I couldn't, you know?

[00:49:24]>> Are you saying that Laenor did and Arya Stark and threw rocks at Seasmoke until Seasmoke ran away?

[00:49:31]>> I mean like sure, right? Why not?

[00:49:33]And and then like we are opening we open up the possibility of a really because in the battles where for the for those of you who don't know, Black Trombo is the name of a masked sellsword who fights I want to say at the fish feed and a couple other battles in the Riverlands, uh and is a former Stepstones pirate who turns into a mercenary to fight in this war.

[00:49:57]And we know that Sea Smoke is also involved in some of those battles, that Laenor and Sea Smoke are also involved in some of those battles, and I have this wonderful image in my head of Sea Smoke and Laenor meeting in a Jon and Ghost-style reunion, but done good.

[00:50:17]Furthermore, uh Black Trombo is involved in the battle where Criston Cole dies, which would which would be emotionally resonant for both of those characters.

[00:50:30]>> That's what's That's what sold me on it is the best way for Criston Criston Cole to die is already wounded, but like could survive, but knows he's not going to. Somebody walks up to him to put a sword in his throat. And the person takes the mask off and it's Laenor.

[00:50:46]Uh and and he then says, "You know, this is a little too quick." And he gives him the most brutal bashing his head in death one COULD IMAGINE.

[00:50:54]>> OH, YEAH. YEAH, because because >> Oh, oh, it's you.

[00:50:59]>> Because >> so >> Criston Am I Didn't Didn't Criston kill Laenor's boyfriend?

[00:51:06]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:51:08]>> And And that There's no No one has any closure for that. And they don't necessarily need that for the story to be complete, but but it would be cool if they did.

[00:51:17]>> He does it in a fit of rage and brutally. And it'd be if we're going to be doing like some big dramatic moments, if you're taking swings for it, you got to swing for the [ __ ] fences, my guy.

[00:51:27]Like you got to there Laenor comes back in disguise, meets Criston Cole, and decides to give him serve up to him what he served up to his boyfriend by beating his face in.

[00:51:39]Uh >> Yeah.

[00:51:41]>> Honestly, you you won me back, show, at that point.

[00:51:45]>> Right.

[00:51:46]>> You're forgiven for any criticism for anything you've done in the past if we get that scene. And and Mira, are we writing fan fic right now? Yeah, but what else is this channel? I don't know.

[00:51:56]>> [laughter] >> Yeah, I know. I was going to say like that is actually I was listening to a video from I think it was Toys Cabinet of Curiosities.

[00:52:06]>> Oh, [ __ ] >> The nature of fandom and that like fandoms continue to exist when something is incomplete. Or really bad and so Like with with Star Trek like the the most memorable things and things that we like riff on in Star Trek [ __ ] posting are like the dropped plot lines or you know, the episodes that were really bad.

[00:52:32]Um And you know >> A lot of Luaxana Troy fans over there.

[00:52:37]>> Yeah.

[00:52:38]Yeah. And I'm trying to think of another one that I >> A lot of bad pressure [ __ ] a ghost.

[00:52:45]>> Yeah, [laughter] yeah. A lot of uh A lot of Data's like fully functional >> Member member shall we say?

[00:52:56]>> Data also [ __ ] a ghost.

[00:52:58]>> Uh it's a a lot of a lot of Tom Paris and Captain Janeway [ __ ] as lizards.

[00:53:04]>> Yeah.

[00:53:05]>> Yeah, I was going to say the lizard babies.

[00:53:09]>> [laughter] >> Uh-oh.

[00:53:14]>> And there's a couple of people who are like in the newest Star Trek they're like they can come back.

[00:53:20]They can come back. Those lizard babies can be plot relevant.

[00:53:23]>> [laughter] >> If they're doing like Star Trek stuff the way they're doing Star Wars one we already would have had a movie where the twist villain is the lizard kids Janeway and >> [laughter] >> Paris.

[00:53:37]>> The lizard >> Somehow the lizard kids returns.

[00:53:41]>> [laughter] >> Uh >> Is that our show, everybody? Zack, what else did you want to talk about?

[00:53:49]>> I I think that we No, we missed we missed one big theme here.

[00:53:53]>> Okay. All right.

[00:53:54]>> I find [laughter] it the most important one and the one they've decided to highlight and put on a shelf. And I think it is important. I think there's a lot of criticism, a lot of it in bad faith, not all of it, but a lot of it in bad faith, is the show is about misogyny.

[00:54:08]>> Oh, yeah. Straight up.

[00:54:09]>> Yeah. Like that that is kind of the central theme. And if you're gutting out some other themes or not making room for some other themes to really put that one on a pedestal and make it shine and talk about it, I think that's fair.

[00:54:22]And I know that there's already been some criticism of season 3 trailer for like one like Alicent blaming everything that's happened on the men in her life. But one, she's got a point. And two, I don't think the show's perspective is that Alicent is a wholly good person who made good decisions and did good things all the time. It's that Alicent existed in a world that never let her become the kind of person she wanted to.

[00:54:50]And that there is tragedy in that, even if she herself is villainous.

[00:54:55]I want to address that pretty directly.

[00:54:57]I think that's uh fantastic writing and it's definitely like that's a point in the books and that's why I picked this quote to begin with.

[00:55:04]This is Alicent, somebody who is seen as doing all this political scheming and maneuvering to put her family on top.

[00:55:12]And what does she actually want when she's dying?

[00:55:15]None of that.

[00:55:17]Not a not a moment of it.

[00:55:20]She She wants to be told she had a lovely voice and to see her kids again.

[00:55:26]And there's no "Drat, I died in prison not having succeeded in my political ambitions." There is "I miss moments where I I to live a normal life.

[00:55:37]>> Yeah, um I I was going to say that like we see this moment again, season 1 episode 9. Alicent could have done a Catherine the Great. Her her husband is dead, her son is an idiot. She could have stepped in at you know, kind of like Cersei, you know, I am queen regent.

[00:55:59]And you know, I'm I'm going to do all the stuff, you know, and like Aegon would not have argued with her. And at that point uh Aemond hadn't started, you know, running amok.

[00:56:11]So, but she didn't. She didn't do it. It was about like you know, duty to the Hightower family and duty to the realm and everything that she didn't grab the throne for herself cuz Rhaenys was like aren't aren't you going to do that?

[00:56:25]Why aren't you doing that?

[00:56:28]Or you know, or Rhaenys like thought she might be for a minute, yeah.

[00:56:33]>> Mhm.

[00:56:35]>> Yeah, cuz there's historical precedent for that of like, you know, the younger wife of a sickly king cuz you know, people respected her. She had been kind of running the realm as the hand of the king for quite a while and like doing all of the [ __ ] administrative stuff that, you know, um uh like certainly I don't think the Hightowers or the Lannisters would have pushed back on that.

[00:57:00]Um but she didn't. And like the the other thing that I think a lot of the fandom like likes to skip over and I know that they aged up, you know, the younger characters, but like she was still a teenager. She's was still like a minor by our standards in the present day. She was under 18 when her father served her up to her best friend's dad, >> Yeah.

[00:57:29]>> you you in grown-up clothes cuz it was so [ __ ] creepy. And he's like, "Wear one of your mother's dresses." Like that's so [ __ ] creepy.

[00:57:38]Um >> Yeah.

[00:57:39]>> Yeah, because I liked how they how they did that. Like and and it's something we still do, but certainly more back in the day of like delineating whether a woman like whether whether someone is a child like a girl or a woman based on like how they dress.

[00:57:55]Um you know, if it like girls wear lighter colors and like it's more modest. And then, you know, then we see Alicent in like the dark blue with the like the fancy sleeves and everything.

[00:58:06]Um anyway, that was a >> No. No, I think you No, please continue.

[00:58:12]I think you were on literary analysis.

[00:58:14]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:58:15]>> Yeah. I don't know how we got there.

[00:58:17]>> Yeah, we finally >> And so So, like by the time she comes up for air and is acting like as an adult, like most of most of this is already kind of blown by her.

[00:58:30]Um you know, there's there's a lot of child brides getting blamed for a lot of stuff that like I don't really think that they should be like also Cersei and Daenerys and Cat.

[00:58:43]>> Yeah.

[00:58:44]>> And Lysa.

[00:58:46]>> I and I feel like I feel like George likes to explore the same themes with a different level of intensity at different angles. And that that like can you really blame Cersei I mean, yes, you can blame Cersei. And also he goes back and says that she was killing people as a child, which complicates this, George. Um but like can you really blame Cersei for becoming the monster she becomes who is in a society that kind of expected that of her, right?

[00:59:09]Like And it was Cersei maybe you can because uh she seems to relish in it a little bit.

[00:59:16]Uh but you certainly have to remember that she grew up as Tywin Lannister's kid. But we get that like having the ambiguity there where we get people's characterizations of Alicent and Rhaenyra.

[00:59:26]Not that I think that they um are going to make uh completely, you know, selfless and good decisions throughout.

[00:59:32]They already haven't. But like they were put in unwinnable positions. The the whole first two seasons are about Rhaenyra being in a completely unwinnable position. No matter what she does, she's in like political hot water.

[00:59:45]Uh just merely by existing and having a claim, even if she like bent the knee and let Aegon become king, the fact that she has a legitimate claim was going to be an issue eventually.

[00:59:58]>> So like so here's a question. Um because it's easy to say like oh, you know, Rhaenyra is gunning for the throne like in part because you know, she's the eldest and it's her birthright, but also like, you know, there's a a lot of people are team black because like Aegon is objectively a bad king. He's a bad person and a bad king. So the question is would Rhaenyra be continuing with this if there was an indication that Aegon would be a good king. Like would she step aside the way Rhaenys did?

[01:00:36]>> Yeah, and and then there's the the ambiguity there. I think makes it very like we can you can read into the characters the way you want. Obviously the show is going to highlight the tragedy for them because they have two phenomenal like people playing the roles.

[01:00:53]They they have phenomenal like a cast to lean in and get dramatic performance out of.

[01:00:58]Uh but like the other thing the other question I love that on top of that was even if she truly did not want to be the person like was the political pressure enough that it was worth like usually the the thing to do if there's a really strongly contested political thing is one of them flees across the narrow sea.

[01:01:19]In most cases.

[01:01:21]That's what the like the you could not exist as somebody who was one of Damon Blackfyre's descendants, right? A Blackfyre couldn't just show up in Westeros and be like, "Hey, sorry about the thing my dad did. He was kind of a shithead." Like, no.

[01:01:36]It's too politically fraught for you to exist in Westeros.

[01:01:40]One of them does try and rock up and Bloodraven kills them straight up. Now, that is cuz Bloodraven's an [ __ ] although I do believe her background says he does nothing wrong. But, like She like Rhaenyra was politicized from birth.

[01:01:55]And we looped back to monarchy bad. She never had a choice but to be a political pawn in a world that does not really view women the same as it views men. She was never She like her level of agency was always diminished.

[01:02:12]from the start. uh >> Yeah, and and >> potential deadly consequence.

[01:02:18]>> Yeah, and and that was like one of the key things like I I love season 1 episode 4.

[01:02:24]But, you know, that Viserys says to her of like you know, you're a girl. Like, you you can't go out to brothels and have bastards. Like you know, because of the nature of your anatomy ultimately. Like, if you if you are not faithful to your spouse you know, the evidence is undeniable.

[01:02:44]You know, I mean, granted then Viserys goes on to deny it. But, uh that it's it it is and she's right.

[01:02:53]Like, wildly unfair. Like, she could have as many bastards as she wanted if she was a man. You know, look at [ __ ] Robert.

[01:03:01]Uh look at Well, you know, Aegon the Fourth is a whole other thing. But, yeah, I mean, Aegon the Second leaving his bastards in the in the fighting pits. Like um I don't know where I was with that either. Oh, parenthood.

[01:03:20]Parenthood I think is my favorite theme in the show that I think they're they're handling really well and like the parallels between parenting and governance.

[01:03:32]>> Parenting.

[01:03:35]>> Yeah. Yeah, Aegon sired some bastards that he forgot about and leaves them to starve and die in the fighting pits. It's super upsetting.

[01:03:45]>> Yeah, it's one of the one of the maybe the scene in the show that the thing in the show that I find most interesting that hasn't yet been explored.

[01:04:03]Right? I think it's super cool.

[01:04:06]Like that is such like such a crazy [ __ ] scene.

[01:04:12]>> Yeah.

[01:04:14]>> Um >> Parenting.

[01:04:18]Cool's the wrong word. I mean I mean interesting from a writing perspective.

[01:04:23]And >> Yeah, no, no, no. I I know what you mean.

[01:04:24]>> It's I just want to make sure the folks at home know not I that I do not mean chill and end based.

[01:04:34]>> [laughter] >> Have I made it Have I made it clear by the way that this show is about sexism?

[01:04:39]Do we think I've highlighted that?

[01:04:41]>> Yeah, oh, yeah. Tom watching a UFC event. Man, this would be cool if they do kids fight.

[01:04:48]>> [laughter] >> Why isn't there UFC junior?

[01:04:53]>> Yeah, because like like you know, I think that like if you were to summarize like Aegon's abilities as a king, like they could best be summarized as like fathered a bastard is somewhat aware that they exist and leaves them to fight and starve and die in the child fighting pits.

[01:05:14]Uh it like is also what he does to the realm of like um you know, having his kids around to like entertain him and you know, will exact revenge on their behalf, but like doesn't actually know anything about them, doesn't actually care about their day-to-day well-being. Like I saw something it was a couple months ago that was like all these dads around here like, oh, I would die for my kids. I would die for my kids. It's like, okay.

[01:05:39]Okay, buddy, I hear you, but like what's your kids' best friend's name?

[01:05:44]What's the name of their pediatrician?

[01:05:47]What's their favorite food this week? Do you know any of that? Like, okay, well, you would die for your kids, but would you live for them?

[01:05:54]>> Damn.

[01:05:56]>> [clears throat] >> Uh >> Yeah, I have feelings.

[01:06:02]>> [laughter] >> My nephew's favorite food this week is grape leaves.

[01:06:07]>> Oh, you have a cool nephew.

[01:06:09]>> Uh I got a cool grape leaf recipe.

[01:06:13]>> [laughter] >> Uh my my nephew this week is really into rocks.

[01:06:23]>> Heck yeah.

[01:06:24]Rocks are excellent.

[01:06:26]>> Uh >> Tom gets uncle of the year and Damon does not.

[01:06:29]>> And I do I do know the name of my nephew's teacher.

[01:06:34]I'm sorry, that's the wrong sentence. I did learn the name of my nephew's teacher.

[01:06:38]>> [laughter] >> I I did I did learn it.

[01:06:43]And it's not it's not anybody I I I don't know whose fault it is that I don't know it.

[01:06:50]But it it's something brain chemistry related. I needed to write it down and I didn't and that's [laughter] on me.

[01:07:00]>> Yeah.

[01:07:00]>> Anyway. [laughter] Uh this show's about sexism, guys. I just wanted to make sure that we just make sure that like do we think that do you think anybody watching have I made it un is it is that unclear?

[01:07:22]I I I think it's >> It might be ambiguous. You might want to point it out a little bit more.

[01:07:26]>> Okay, I'm sorry. I'll in the edit I'll blow it up.

[01:07:32]>> [laughter] >> This is This is I find this really pretty. And this is This is a really pleasant image to me.

[01:07:44]>> [laughter] >> This is I I like it a lot. It's quite like I don't know. It's sort of it's it's like a little analog horror if that makes sense.

[01:07:56]I think I've I've accidentally made art.

[01:07:59]>> Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[01:08:00]>> Oh.

[01:08:01]>> Um, I wanted to tie this back to an episode that we did recently about impossible situations making people crazy. Uh >> Crazy. I was crazy once.

[01:08:12]>> king wasn't really mad. They put me in a room, a rubber room, a rubber room with rats.

[01:08:18]>> Carry on. Sorry.

[01:08:20]>> I can't hold on.

[01:08:22]>> [laughter] >> They got me thinking crazy.

[01:08:26]>> You might think I'm crazy.

[01:08:29]>> And rats make me crazy.

[01:08:32]I was crazy once.

[01:08:35]>> [laughter] >> Is that our show? Oh, I'm sorry. You wanted to tie it to something. I'm sorry. Go ahead.

[01:08:46]>> Oh, about the mad king wasn't really mad. This was Zach's point about an impossible situation would lead an otherwise perhaps reasonable person uh to madness.

[01:09:01]>> [snorts] >> Absolu- absolutely. I think these are these are excellent points.

[01:09:06]Any other any other any other themes that we want to talk about?

[01:09:12]Is that it?

[01:09:13]>> No, I think that I think that covered the ones I really wanted to talk about.

[01:09:16]>> It's it's autocracy bad.

[01:09:20]Uh >> Sexism bad.

[01:09:21]>> Sexism sexism bad.

[01:09:24]>> Histo- history contains ambiguity.

[01:09:28]>> Yeah, for sure.

[01:09:30]>> Shakespeare uh Shakespeare loved his unsubtle plot lines and George loved Shakespeare.

[01:09:39]>> And >> green men confirmed.

[01:09:42]>> Yeah.

[01:09:43]>> Yes.

[01:09:43]>> Yes yeah uh blood red.

[01:09:45]>> Yeah.

[01:09:46]>> And and one of the one of the themes is trippy tree dream.

[01:09:51]>> [laughter] >> I didn't actually get to talk about this and this is something I really think is interesting. Um eternal pursuit of the thing that you want is something that I find very very very interesting.

[01:10:03]Um this is the Moby Dick. This is the uh the old man in the sea, right? And there's a lot of this in Shakespeare.

[01:10:09]It's the eternal pursuit of some specific goal to the like detriment of yourself and the things or is it's the waste of a life in pursuit of some not actually meaningful goal.

[01:10:23]>> Mhm.

[01:10:24]>> uh and I find that like really intellectually interesting. I find it very very fun to talk about. Uh and and I'm we we might like it might be worth doing that as its own video because that in Corlys and Rhaenys and Daemon and Otto uh and and maybe a little bit of Larys, right?

[01:10:49]Uh that that in Cersei I think is very cool. Uh that in Robert who who who got the thing right? Who got the thing.

[01:11:01]Which was theoretically the throne but did not but but did not find that fulfilling.

[01:11:10]>> Lyanna.

[01:11:11]>> Yeah, right. But but >> Yeah.

[01:11:13]>> Yeah.

[01:11:14]>> I was just saying see also Daenerys.

[01:11:17]>> Yes, she there is >> why Daenerys is the rightful king.

[01:11:21]>> Yes, see Viserys, right? Uh uh who else is who else is around? Uh Balon, right? Balon who has this pursuit of like {quote} {unquote} freedom, right? {quote} {unquote} autonomy for the Iron Islands. Uh if he ever got it he wouldn't be happy.

[01:11:42]And and and he wouldn't have done anything meaningful.

[01:11:46]>> Not not only that, every uh every time he uh pursues a war to uh s- show you the strength and freedom that they could have, it backfires horribly and constricts his freedom.

[01:12:01]Uh >> Yeah.

[01:12:02]>> He's he's a uh clueless old man who starts a war that he thinks he can win and then is horrified when it doesn't work out for him. Which can't possibly be political commentary.

[01:12:13]>> Yeah.

[01:12:13]See also Tywin Lannister.

[01:12:15]>> Oh.

[01:12:16]>> Yeah.

[01:12:16]>> See also Viserys, Viserys the First and and Emma, right? The pursuit of a son.

[01:12:23]>> Yeah.

[01:12:23]>> Right? The pursuit of an heir at the cost of all of the things that should actually make you happy.

[01:12:30]Uh uh and and I think uh I'm at the stage in my life when I maybe actually should read Moby Dick.

[01:12:39]>> [laughter] >> Right?

[01:12:40]>> Yeah.

[01:12:41]>> I was just >> You should watch the the the mini series with Patrick Stewart in it. I know I've mentioned it before. It's really good and like from what I understand very faithful to the parts of the source material that aren't like about whaling.

[01:12:59]>> Yeah, that aren't lengthy descriptions of fish.

[01:13:02]>> Yeah.

[01:13:03]>> [laughter] >> Uh >> Yeah.

[01:13:07]>> Uh okay, and anyway, um I think we we can all agree uh that that all of these themes are interesting and worth exploring um and that Laenor is coming back and I'll be pissed if he doesn't.

[01:13:22]>> And Stannis is the one true king.

[01:13:24]>> And Stannis is the only one who seems to get it, right? Stannis and Jon are the only two who seem to seem to be on the correct page.

[01:13:33]>> Yep.

[01:13:34]>> Oh my god.

[01:13:34]>> And uh and over in cell life.

[01:13:37]>> And now wait a minute, hang on. Hear me out on Tormund also getting it.

[01:13:43]>> I mean Tormund gets it a few times.

[01:13:46]>> Hey, from a bear.

[01:13:48]>> Yeah, I was going to say I was going to say if you want to see some bear [ __ ] uh you should tune in.

[01:13:55]>> [laughter] >> If you want to see some bear touch.

[01:14:00]>> [laughter] >> I was going to say to Baldur's Gate 3.

[01:14:03]>> Whoa.

[01:14:06]Well, I didn't know it was that kind of game.

[01:14:10]>> I mean that is one of the memes.

[01:14:13]>> Whoa.

[01:14:14]>> [laughter] >> You can [ __ ] it you can [ __ ] druids.

[01:14:18]>> Oh.

[01:14:21]Uh okay.

[01:14:23]Sure.

[01:14:24]>> Honestly, I just assumed your audience would know what I was talking about.

[01:14:27]>> Uh see, I haven't Baldur's Gated at all.

[01:14:30]>> Oh, but you will. You will, Tom.

[01:14:32]>> Uh oh gosh, I have so much stuff to do.

[01:14:36]>> [laughter] >> Wait, no, I guess it's on the calendar.

[01:14:40]Shoot, what's it on the calendar?

[01:14:42]>> it on the calendar? This is this is Mhm?

[01:14:45]>> It's already on the calendar, right?

[01:14:47]>> Yeah, it is.

[01:14:48]>> Damn it. I thought I was hoping you'd forget.

[01:14:51]Oh my god.

[01:14:52]>> No, I literally put it on my calendar.

[01:14:53]>> Ah, [ __ ] Okay.

[01:14:56]Uh, tune in to to to Mira is it Mira Games? Mira doesn't read?

[01:15:03]>> Um, so it's still on the Mira Reads channel, but it's going to be a live stream and I'll I'll post it like ahead of time.

[01:15:10]>> Okay.

[01:15:12]I guess I guess I could be persuaded to play Baldur's Gate 3, I guess, whatever, I guess.

[01:15:18]Uh, >> Yeah, Zach can come too if if Zach would like.

[01:15:23]>> Um, goodness, hold on. I I got a security alert from one of my [ __ ] accounts, so I got to do that [ __ ] >> All right. I [laughter] think that's our show, everybody. Thank you all very much for joining us.

[01:15:33]>> Tragic end to my thing. I have to do uh, I have to do cyber security.

[01:15:38]>> All right.

[01:15:38]>> Don't cry for me, I'm already dead.

[01:15:40]>> [laughter] >> I I wish you all the best uh, and I'm so excited for Lena R to return.