Ireland's Racism Issues | Path to Power Episode 124

Added: 2026-05-23

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[00:00:48]Hello and welcome to this edition of Path to Power. I'm Matt Cooper, joined today by Brendan Ogle, the trade unionist who has strong socialist leanings when it comes to his politics.

[00:00:59]And he closes his eyes as I say that.

[00:01:01]You are a socialist, aren't you?

[00:01:04]>> I was just looking at the clock to see how long it took you to label me.

[00:01:08]>> It's an introduction, Brendan. It's to make sure that people know who you are.

[00:01:11]you know uh I al to say as well that uh this is the day in which the bi-elections are taking place in Dublin central and also in Gway West and because of that uh by the time you may be listening to this the boxes for counting the votes will have been opened we might you may even know the result but we don't know what's happened in the bi-elections so we're not talking about them today although I suppose one thing we won't talk about who might have won and who didn't win but I suppose Because one of the the themes which has come up in both constituencies, although to a far lesser degree I think than some people might have thought, is immigration in Gway West because the independent Ireland candidate and null Thomas was a former Fina faller who got in trouble with his views in relation to pass centers and ended up leaving the party. Some of his people objected to my description of him been turfed out on a previous episode. And then of course in Dublin you had Jerry Hutch who very much made immigration a large part of his platform. And then of course you also had what happened to Bertie Hearn when he was out canvasing and we discussed that on the podcast with Lee Sand and Shane Coleman last week. As somebody who's been very active in being supportive of immigrants. What do you think about the fact? Are you encouraged by the fact that it actually turned up relatively few occasions during these campaigns as an issue?

[00:02:40]>> I'm not encouraged at all. Um, as I was coming over here this evening, um, I was just thinking about um, how many of the voters in Dublin one in particular, but also you mentioned uh, the Gway election, um, will be going to the polls with that in mind. And I'm concerned that it's uh it's a worrying amount. Um, of course, the biggest the one of the biggest things with that have happened in Dublin one in the last few weeks and and yesterday I attended a vigil uh for the the man that died in Henry Street last Friday. Um Eve Squila um >> who was originally from Congo, but my understanding is naturalized Irishman.

[00:03:27]>> Yeah. and and homeless uh >> and had had addiction issues, >> man issues as as as as you see throughout a lot of our city, but particularly Dublin one, which I'm very very familiar with. Um you can't you can't be in Dublin one without seeing evidence of of those sort of issues, unfortunately.

[00:03:47]And I know that there's a video on social media. It's the full video was over 7 minutes. It's a very very difficult watch.

[00:03:56]Um, and I know there has been some media commentary, there have been a bit of media commentary about it, >> but I I think if anybody watches the video and as I say, it's a difficult watch.

[00:04:08]I can't bring myself to watch it because on the basis that you know that >> the victim dies in the situation and I find it very I sorry I'm interrupting you here but I find it a little bit distressing that there were more people interested in taking videos of what was happening than actually going and maybe remmonstrating with the security guards involved to say this is excessive force.

[00:04:32]You don't need five people on top of somebody to restrain them. Yeah. Can I come back to that point in a minute?

[00:04:38]>> You can.

[00:04:39]>> Um, for those who haven't seen the video, who may have seen the George Floyd video, um, there are remarkable likenesses.

[00:04:48]>> Sorry, just to remember mind people, George Floyd 2020, wasn't it?

[00:04:51]>> Yeah, I think it was 2020. Yeah.

[00:04:53]>> In the United States. And this led to a large backlash at the time of >> led to a global backlash. Yeah. Black Lives Matter football teams kneeling down all around the world. it led to to it to to and I'm not sure it has done anything by the way to to assist in in the anti-racist agenda because there doesn't seem to be any stemming that at the moment >> but it seems to have if anything provoked a backlash >> perhaps >> and I can tell you sorry we we covered the um the case of this man who died outside Ironets last on Friday last Friday twice on the last word during the week and I was quite shocked by some of the text messages from people coming in almost on the basis that he deserved it because he was shoplifting. And I did hear his solicitor making the very uh strong point that uh even if he had been shoplifting, if he was guilty of that, h you don't there's no summary execution.

[00:05:47]There's no execution of those who are found guilty of shoplifting.

[00:05:52]>> Yeah. I I I've reached a point um >> Oh, sorry. The other thing that was also been said was that you wouldn't be making this fuss if it was a white man who had died in the same circumstances which I found absolutely remarkable and then claiming you're not making the same fuss of a man who was killed in Castle Knock over the weekend. Well, actually on Blanchstone but as it actually happens is there have been two 16-year-olds who have been charged in that case. So there's very limited commentary that you can actually make.

[00:06:22]You don't want to interfere with a case.

[00:06:24]What I'm fascinated about in the case of Eve Sakita is that um the Guardi took days before they even offered assistance to his family, >> which would be quite normally immediately available in the case of anyone dying.

[00:06:42]>> Yeah, but okay. Yeah, I'm not going to deal with all of those because I'll take I'll take up, you know, and I I wouldn't say I'm going to take up too much time.

[00:06:50]>> You can take up as much time as you want. I'll miss the points that I want to make perhaps. So, first of all, people will be familiar, a lot of people will be familiar with the George Floyd video. If you haven't seen this video, it's remarkably similar both in length um in in what happens and unfortunately in the outcome um the death of the of the gentleman concerned. Um, and it's happening, it happened on one of our main streets, I think our second busiest shopping street. Um, in broad daylight on a Friday evening.

[00:07:22]Um, and as you say, there are quite a lot of people watching. Um, I'll get to that in a minute. But the point I wanted to make though um is that in terms of the Dublin one election, in terms of the racism issue generally, which is where you started with this, um there's nearly 5,000 people arrested in this country for shoplifting last year and brought to guard stations.

[00:07:48]There's only one of them didn't make it to the guard station alive, and that was Eve Squila.

[00:07:55]Um and I don't want to be over dramatic. As I say, I attended the the the vigil yesterday afternoon. By the way, the vigil yesterday afternoon was most vigils are outside the doll. They're outside the doll at the what people might know as the Buzzwells side of the doll. The organizers of this vigil were asked to move it to the Maran Square side of the doll, which isn't problematic. But the reason why they were asked to move it, I understand, is because there were fears of a far right presence turning up at the other side and the guards asked them to move it, which they did. So that says something.

[00:08:30]And indeed, uh, after the, um, after the the vigil, I walked around that way >> to the other side.

[00:08:40]>> Yeah. through back street and back down >> and um there were a small I'd say only about half a dozen >> but there were a small number of farright agitators who were there and a lot of a lot of guards there actually more guards there than there had been at the vigil um obviously anticipating the vigil turning up there which which it didn't um and I see there has been comment it's been on the main news it's been in the papers I see the t-shot commenting on it I see um the minister for justice comment commenting on it. I do see comments and you've kind of hinted at it a bit there yourself that, you know, we need to be very careful what we say in order not to prejudice a criminal investigation. And I absolutely get that and I'm certainly not going to say anything here that will prejudice uh a potential criminal investigation.

[00:09:28]The problem I have with that though is that can be that can be heard by some people as we should say nothing.

[00:09:36]And it could be it could be a long time, it could be a year, it could be 2 years before any criminal investigation that may emerge finds its way into the courts, which would then get media coverage. Um, and to anybody that watches that video, you will have to ask the question, what have we become and what are we likely to continue to become in that two years if we can't find a way of having this conversation, the George Floyd thing, which which to me in in in in in what happened looked is is remarkably similar, um, got a got a global reaction.

[00:10:19]This has got a I won't say muted. It's got a it's got a reaction, but I have a feeling in a month not too many people will be will remember it other than unfortunately maybe the community involved and the poor man's family and and close and close friends. And that's not good enough. Um now a couple of weeks ago um two weeks ago today actually um earlier in the day um I was in double bone myself and took a bit of a turn.

[00:10:48]nothing serious, just an old back problem uh that resurfaced in a very painful way. Um to the to the shock of one of my one of my colleagues um when she found me sliding down onto our office floor with the pain and I ended up in the m hospital anyway >> cuz you'd passed out.

[00:11:08]>> Passed out. Yeah.

[00:11:08]>> And you were brought by ambulance.

[00:11:09]>> Brought by ambulance. Yeah. Into the A&E and triage and all of that. Um, and I got talking to a chap who had been who was there as well, a patient, and you know, I was I was at that moment in time cuz I' just been triaged. They hadn't given me anything at that point.

[00:11:26]So, I wasn't really in the mood for any conversation.

[00:11:29]>> Not like you.

[00:11:30]>> No. No. Correct.

[00:11:31]>> You must have been very sick.

[00:11:32]>> I'll take that. It was quite painful, Matt. I'll take the chin. Yeah. I wasn't in the mood for any chat. This man was in the mood for a lot of chat. And he was a nice man, don't get me wrong. in anything I'm about to say in a moment.

[00:11:43]Um, he struck me as a nice man.

[00:11:47]Um, but not a nice conversation.

[00:11:51]His opener was this is some kip.

[00:11:55]How did we end up here? Now, it was a Friday lunchtimeish in the A&E in the matter. It wasn't too busy. It, you know, it was nobody likes to be there.

[00:12:05]You're there for a not good reason. Um, and I said, "It's okay. We'll be okay."

[00:12:10]And he says, "Um, they've taken over."

[00:12:17]>> Who's they?

[00:12:18]>> That was my I said, "Who's they foreigners?"

[00:12:24]>> So I says, "Ah, look, I wasn't really in the mood, you know." Ah, I I I don't >> You didn't do a birthday and start agreeing with him.

[00:12:30]>> No, I don't see it like that. I don't I look, I don't see it like that. That's all I said. I'm trying to put me head down and be ignored. And then he said, um, you mustn't travel on public transport if you don't see it like that.

[00:12:46]So I said, well, actually, I do travel on public transport.

[00:12:52]Where do you live? So I told him where I live. Live in Swords. There's no public transport in Swords. Well, there actually is. And I travel on it and I don't have a problem. I don't see the issue.

[00:13:05]And then he told me that we're losing our culture. That always kind of triggers me.

[00:13:11]So pain or no pain, he got a bit of a lecture about the culture that I grew up in the 1970s, the old white male stale pedophilic Catholic church and all the things that went on all over this country. But once I mentioned the word pedophilic, that seemed to trigger him.

[00:13:29]And it seems that every ma every man and woman that he ever met who wasn't white suffered from that derangement in his view.

[00:13:40]mercifully.

[00:13:42]A few minutes later, um, a female doctor emerged from behind the the triage um, who who who wasn't Irish anyway, called his name and off he diligently went and I never seen him again.

[00:14:01]Um, >> he'll be happy to be treated by a foreigner for his ailments. But what struck me about it Matt and this is the bit the reason why I'm telling you this and it's the only reason I'm telling it the context of your question in the context of Eve Squila in the context of the conversation that we in Ireland need to have the context of the elections what struck me about it was the look of surprise on his face genuine surprise when someone he was having a casual conversation with challenged his narrative.

[00:14:37]It was as if his narrative had never been challenged before.

[00:14:43]And he couldn't believe that here he was in Dublin one in an A&E talking to another workingclass person who wasn't just readily buying into this line of toxic racist [ __ ] And that's what worried me more than anything he said. I've heard and read and you have in the comments on the shows you do that and worse. I've read a lot worse than that. I've heard a lot worse than that. But it was the genuine surprise and that makes me think and I'm looking at what's going on in the UK as well. Like these people find it hard to believe that these racists, let's call them what they are, find it hard to believe that for the numbers of asylum seekers in Ireland for start falling.

[00:15:30]And I learned a statistic this week which staggered me about Britain where of course this is a bigger issue. We we had the Irish over there last weekend joining Tommy Robinson's ban disgracing the nation butricolor has been >> yeahricolors and and union jacks waving in fascist union. So um but but basically immigration numbers in the last three years in the UK have fallen from almost 1 million to 190,000.

[00:16:00]less than 20% of what they were three years ago and they've havedved in the last year >> I suppose and money playing devil's advocate in relation by the way is that you know it's the accumulation is the issue what strikes me from what you're saying there as well >> as well as giving us an Irish version of the pit but what strikes me is that when Bertie her made those comments recently and we discussed them last week on this podcast you know that Bertie was doing what politicians do and he was an absolute master of of you know engaging in conversation by agreeing with the person even if it's the obnoxious views you sort of suck the person into conversation and try and subtly change them or get them to buy in and I can understand that to a certain extent but what I couldn't get over was the amount of people who started saying that Bertie was saying what we all believe in and we're afraid to say so funny thing is you know you're just saying to me about this person was shocked to be challenged in the way that you did. And yet lots of people presumably like him would say that well this is what we're all but we're afraid to say it in case we be shouted down.

[00:17:11]>> Well yeah they always this is what they say. This is what they say. You see um we can't say what we say anymore without being accused of being racists.

[00:17:21]So then you say okay well I'm all ears.

[00:17:25]What do you want to say? And then you get five minutes of racist diet tribes out of them. So what they're basically looking for is permission to be racists.

[00:17:35]And I think >> even if they don't think of themselves as very much >> I don't care what they think of themselves as to be perfectly honest with you because if you if you're if if if your reaction to a man a big strong fit man who 10 minutes ago was walking around and is now dead on a street um in in in look I'm I'm going to say nothing to my prejudice anything, but in in the most dreadful circumstances, I'll just leave it at that. If your reaction to that is he deserved it, then I don't care what you have to say. And and look at you laugh at this when I say this to you and and I don't mind when if you do laugh, by the way, because you raise about Berty and the populism and the whole lot. Look at Berty was a politician. He supported Dublin, the most popular GA county in the country. Well, he's from Dublin. Fair enough. He supported Manchester United, the most popular supported football team. Anything that's popular B is for. Right. So this fool here looking at you across the studio ran in the European elections nearly two years ago now. Really enjoyed it by the way. Um and I did I did an interview with with with Galahan and this issue come up and I talk I said in live in the interview and then I put it out out on on on on leaflets. If you've ever used a word words, get them out or Ireland is full.

[00:19:10]Do not vote for me. I don't want your votes. I will not represent you. I want to know nothing about you. And if I was lucky enough to ever be elected, I will not speak up for you.

[00:19:20]>> Is that why you got so few votes?

[00:19:21]>> That's had potentially potentially that is why I got so few votes. But but but but I'm proud of the purity of the view that I got, man. So potentially it is that but that you know you're saying that half joking but that's why Berty does these things and listen I have no interest in Berty. He's yesterday's man done enough damage to this country for us to be not wasting time talking about him in 2020.

[00:19:47]>> Say he's done a lot of good as well. You had a good Friday agreement without him and things like created a Celtic tiger.

[00:19:51]That did us all a lot of good, didn't it? So um at the end of the day he's yesed his man and I'll soon be yes to his man too. Right. And that's fine.

[00:20:00]Where are we going with this? At a time when people are dying in the street, people are running for election based on based people are saying having these conversations in hospital and ease while the the the medical system and the health system that we rely rely on would collapse. And one of the things, by the way, I mentioned Britain and and and the immigration numbers going back to to 190,000 having in a year 20% of what they were three years ago. That's a major economic problem for Britain, by the way. A major economic problem in terms of in terms of skills and running their economy going forward. So, I just think we need to just kind of the the the Eve Squil horrendous debt should give us all pause for thought. I appreciate the chance you've given me to >> Can I bring up Can I bring up something without in any way? No, I'm almost scared to in case you even suggest that the implication of what I'm going to bring up is racist. But let me tell you that on our subscription edition, we have Leoad Corona Care and we're talking about things like foreign direct investment into Ireland. We're talking about the loss of the meta jobs and how this could extrapolate further. But one of the things I did bring up is about the additional jobs. The cso figures additional number of jobs between 2019 and 2024. An additional 355,000 people in employment bringing us to 2.8 million people. Of the additional numbers, 216,000 were foreign workers, 61.4%.

[00:21:37]So that means we have added an enormous amount of foreign people into the workforce who've come in and that does create social stress doesn't it? I mean that does actually and in work places >> there's nothing racist about that.

[00:21:51]>> No I'm glad you agree with me. I think it is something >> open border. I don't support open borders.

[00:21:57]>> Well you see these aren't open borders.

[00:21:58]This is the this is the interesting thing to be taught. So let me just just hear me out because this is something I didn't discuss with Leo and on the subscription editions. I think it is worth talking to you about because it's not just people coming from the rest of the European Union where you have free it's an awful lot of people coming on work visas a lot of people probably coming into the tech sector from the likes of India very much needed in these job because we don't have enough skilled people ourselves very important in our health care system exceptionally important to our health care system a lot of people coming into construction which we need for things like all the extra houses and for building things like metro and all the rest of it. Um, what are you rolling your eyes at?

[00:22:41]>> Metro. Yeah. Is it 1985 or what? But what what decade are we talking about this now? Metro.

[00:22:46]>> It's moving along.

[00:22:48]It'll happen. It'll happen. Right.

[00:22:50]>> But I suppose the interesting thing is I mean should we be giving and this is something that Dan O'Brien who also contributes to the Patar podcast has spoken about is should we be awarding as many visas to people outside the EU. Is it absolutely a necessity? Do we need all the students coming in from Brazil who stand spend most of their time for and please don't take me up wrong with that but they're doing low paid jobs that Irish people don't want to do they're doing delivery jobs all this type of thing in do we actually need because of the strain that it puts on housing rental accommodation the health system the education do we need to be a little bit more selective in the numbers we are letting in >> well if we need to be a little and I'm not saying you suggested this for one moment, but I'm just going to say it.

[00:23:38]>> If, and that's an if, I'll talk about the if in a minute. If we need to be a little bit more selective, it should go without saying that the selection should have nothing to do with race, color, or creed.

[00:23:48]>> Just get putting that out there. I'm not saying you did say that. You didn't say anything like that, but I'm saying it anyway.

[00:23:52]>> Yeah.

[00:23:54]So we've listened correctly um to us being told that technically for the last four or five years we've got two things full employment and a growing population also an aging population.

[00:24:11]>> So square square that circle but anyway so we're living longer I suppose but we're not actually anymore. Um, so in that scenario then if we've got full employment now I could debate that as a workers representative which is separately because I know people who've got three jobs who still can't pay the bills right >> but anyway that's not the discussion we're having here. Um the people who are coming in are coming in with skills that we need in the sectors that you have outlined. I have particular uh unfortunate experience unfortunate in my case not some not so much in my my late sister's case in the with the health service and only for the wonderful people who who came in there I from from different countries I wouldn't be here um >> this because the cancer treatment you got >> and and and again that was very obvious and it wasn't nothing nearly as serious as that a couple of weeks ago it was in the matter but it's very obvious um so thank god for them um there is a there is a bit that you didn't touch upon there though and you mentioned it with with people coming in from Brazil on student work visas and all that sort of stuff. I think that needs to be looked at not because they're Brazilian.

[00:25:17]>> No, I think because they've been exploited >> because they've been exploited and we have and we have a dark economy.

[00:25:22]>> Yep.

[00:25:23]>> Um completely unregulated where in some cases employers uh control >> their visas, >> the visas of these people. And we had a terrible thing going on at the moment, by the way, where some of the people who didn't even get to come here on work visas had to pay agencies money up front to apply for the visas. Thousands, people who have nothing.

[00:25:46]>> And also then haven't got the money back.

[00:25:48]>> Also living in substandard accommodation and often living in multiple people room.

[00:25:54]>> You see it all over the city. You see it all over the city. And so the of course the labor market needs tighter tighter regulation. It shouldn't be on the basis of what I said out at the beginning. I don't need to repeat it. Of course, it needs tighter and tighter regulation.

[00:26:06]It's too deregulated and it's too open to abuse. Um, and that's not to just make a a a broad statement about all employers, many good employers out there. But there is also abuse taking place. There is there aren't enough inspections. Um, there aren't enough workplace inspections because there aren't enough workplace inspectors.

[00:26:23]We've got the the the few laws we have in relation to workers rights in these areas such as such as minimum wage such as the tip theft legislation are generally not being implemented because there's no workplace inspection regime of of of any scale worth talking about.

[00:26:40]So, so even when we get good regulations and and Leo Vadka, who you mentioned by the way, um I wouldn't agree with a lot of Leo Vadker's politics. One of the great things he done was introduce that tip legislation which also applied to to service charges, but it's not been implemented because we don't have the workers regulations. So, yes, we need more and more regulations. And just to go back to what I said about the open borders, we free movement of people within the European Union, thankfully.

[00:27:05]Um and and we need to have free movement of people. Well, we need to have the ability of people to move and to come here and also to leave here. Irish people have left this country for for for for for decades and decades and decades for generations. Um, but of course it has to be regulated and of course we have to have services that can cope and of course we have to the housing is a big issue. One of the things that that we're going to have with the with the with the the unfortunate job cuts now in the tech sector, I suppose, is is you know that might have a knock-on effect with the housing situation as somebody pointed out to me on the phone yesterday. Um >> that would be me.

[00:27:41]>> Well, I just think it is going to affect it because some of the higher rents particularly in the Dublin Oaklands were been charged and were been achieved because there were people working in the tax sector on very large salaries who come from abroad who decided they would you know perhaps if they were without children or whatever they would live in expensive accommodation before they might move on again in the future and that accommodation might become available. So, so regulation no problem.

[00:28:08]Uh movement of people within Europe absolutely movement of people you know from other parts of the world where we need them and where Irish people want to go. It has to be it has to be regulated and we and we have to have the services.

[00:28:19]But racism in this my my goodness it's 2026. It's it's so depressing that we even have to say this. you know, having negative views of other human beings because of their color, their creed, their race, their ethnic origin, their religion. It is pathetic to humankind.

[00:28:39]And we really need to to just stop that in its tracks. There's no place for populism where racism is concerned.

[00:28:46]None. Sorry, Berty.

[00:28:48]>> That's why I asked you to join us on the podcast today. We need to take a break.

[00:28:52]I want to come back. I want to talk about this week's controversies involving RTE, the flotilla that was intercepted by the Israelis, Patrick O'Donovan's views on that Ireland Israel football match, and also plans for expansion at Dublin airport and given that you once worked for Irish rail. I'd be fascinated to know what you think of the 50 million IT write off, all of that, and what you're going to be doing this weekend as well, despite your bad back after this break. Today's episode is brought to you by the Greenman Group.

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[00:30:03]Welcome back to Patar. It's just me and Brendan Ogle on the main edition today.

[00:30:08]You can hear Leo Faradka and Anya Care on the subscription edition from Sunday morning. So Brendan, have you been following what's been going on in RTE this week in a bit?

[00:30:21]>> Oh god, >> I think a lot of people are like that. I wonder how much interest a lot of people actually have.

[00:30:27]>> People in RTE seemed of interest and people in the Orotus committee seemed of interest and some people in I you know when I when I was coming here this evening I was thinking about the issues that you've listed there and you know what what am I going to say about this?

[00:30:40]What am I going to say about that? This is the one that fills me with the least enthusiasm.

[00:30:47]So I was but I was thinking what can I say about it that that might be you know >> hold on you know as as somebody who is a socialist. What do you want out of RTE which is in this strange hybrid always has been of been the state broadcaster fulfilling a public service mandate but yes is also a ruthless commercial competitor as anyone in the independent private sector actually knows and I'll give you a few thoughts maybe ruminate on that while I throw a few other things and I think >> I can't ruminate on it because I have to listen to you >> you can do both simultaneously >> no I'm a man I can't I multitask. All right. Well, respond to that one. So, >> um, look, I suppose first of all, I fully support public broad public sector broadcasting. Um, and and I think in in in in a in a democracy, particularly in not just particularly, but you know, definitely in this democracy and in the era in which we live in, it's as important, if not more important than ever. Um, so, uh, but rather than go on and on about it, I'm going to just say something that's going to make me even more unpopular in RTE than I already am.

[00:31:57]Um, >> okay, go on.

[00:32:00]>> And you can guess how little I care, >> right?

[00:32:03]>> Um, >> are you not a regular in RT programs?

[00:32:05]>> A long no, not for a long time, Matt.

[00:32:07]Not for a long time. Okay.

[00:32:09]>> Far more entertaining people on all those shows now. Um, so basically I think all of these crises and I don't want to pick pick on anybody in particular, but we let's go back four or five years true to the current one and the current I think there's there's there's a current a common problem.

[00:32:28]RT is a state broadcaster. It's a very very important um outlet and it's funded commercially but also by the general public to a huge amount to a huge amount. So if you want to work in RTE and if you want to be to to to and I'm not talking about when I say work I mean be a scheduled be on the RT schedule in terms of presenting a show or whatever a a regular be it a weekly be it a daily.

[00:32:53]I'm not talking about somebody that might pop up on a talk show every few every every so often, right? I'm not at prime time or something like that. I'm talking about if you're one of the key what I think they call them the talent, right? The arrogance reeks, right? So, if you're one of the talent and you want to work in RTE, go and work in RTE on the terms and conditions as a PA worker that RTE offer. And if that's not enough for you, go and work somewhere else. And it's as simple as that. Because it strikes me that all of these problems, the root of all of these problems, and I don't want to go into them and start picking on people, but the root of all of these problems is is trying to create a hybrid situation where people who the general public might consider as RTE presenters are actually something else.

[00:33:48]They're actually private companies who have I could go through some of the names of them now which would give you the chills but they're private companies um which are set up I'm suggesting and that's why I'm not naming anybody. I'm suggesting the whole regime of that is is is is well there's tax advantages in it right they don't and and those people then we think of them as RTE but actually there's something else and then you get into well look I've been paid this much for this and that much for something else and how does it all mix and who's getting paid are they getting paid is the company getting paid or the presenters or the producers what are they and it all gets very messy Now, it created a crisis. The crisis moved on. Some people retired. Some notable people retired in the last couple of years. Some they weren't all in that basket, by the way, because some of them have always been RT employees and they've retired as well. So, it's it's a mixed bag, but some of them have gone some of them retired. Some of them gone to other broadcasters.

[00:34:53]But that is the core problem. And it's not fair to the rest of the people who work in RTE by >> Okay, I'm going to disagree with you in a lot of this. Right.

[00:35:01]>> Right. Imagine that.

[00:35:02]>> Imagine that. Okay.

[00:35:05]I have no skin in the game here in that I have no connection into RT occasional that I end up on a program or whatever.

[00:35:13]Very rarely. Okay. But when it comes to the issue of contracts for presenters, a lot of the time that is what RT insisted upon to give itself more flexibility to get rid of people, >> right?

[00:35:28]And as it happens, the I think the biggest scandal in RTE when it comes to a workplace one has been all of the workers in lower levels who have been on contracts rather than paid staff over the last couple of decades and who have had very limited uh benefits as a result of that. The idea that a state-owned organization would have been involved in putting people on 11mon contracts, letting them go, bringing them back in again, all to stop them going on to the staff, I think is actually outrageous.

[00:35:58]>> When's the bit we disagree on coming?

[00:36:00]>> Okay, just wait. But when it came to the presenters, they wanted that flexibility if they wanted to change presenters. And you know, we there's one particular example without using a name. But somebody who has been let go and who is not working anywhere else at the moment and that person does not get redundancy and does not have rights. And you can say, well, that was all built into previous payments that were made on the contracts. But there are there are quite a few people over the years who have been presenters in RT for a number of years and then quietly have disappeared and they get no redundancy in relation to that and they may not necessarily have been on big contracts either. So an awful lot of this was to the benefit of RTE rather than to the individual right.

[00:36:45]>> I'm not saying but I'm just but >> okay it's not all down to the presenters. I accept that. And then there is the problem is that if you do have somebody on staff and you decide, well, you know, if they're doing presenter, they may be doing additional work on top and they're paid differently, right?

[00:37:01]>> Okay. If you then decide we no longer want them as a presenter and they're still on staff, they can end up in pay.

[00:37:08]They're not going to have their pay reduced. So they're actually been paid well above what they might be in equivalent somebody else in equivalent job is doing because it's a form of compensation for taking them off air.

[00:37:20]>> I'm not sure.

[00:37:21]>> You get what? You get what I'm saying?

[00:37:22]Do you understand what I'm saying?

[00:37:24]>> Well, I do I I understand what you're saying.

[00:37:26]>> Yeah. But I mean, if those people have been contractors, RT could have let them go. Instead, there's a lot of people, it looks like in RT, who are on very, very high money in various jobs, former presenters, producers, management, whatever, who essentially get to keep their pay and benefits even though they're no longer doing the work that they had been doing.

[00:37:46]>> Well, if there's a single if there's a single model, if you look at the if you look at the BBC for example, >> Gary Lico was employed by the BBC.

[00:37:55]Fact, that's what caused all the problems. Yep.

[00:37:57]>> Because he was employed by the BBC, he started to have opinions. Opinions which I agreed with, by the way, but he started to have opinions which the BBC decided were not in keeping with their ethos or whatever that is. Right. That's okay. Right. And that caused lots of problems. But somebody of that prominence um very high earner, highest earner on the BBC at the time, um had to in effect give up all of his extracurricular work, if we can call it that, >> to to fit into a a a state broadcaster with a a kind of a single model employment contract. And he was at the top.

[00:38:36]>> Did he? Because you're not involved with gold hanger at that stage making podcasts.

[00:38:40]>> Oh, he was a BBC he was a look people can have jobs and do little bits here and there, but that's that's that's a different scale now. You know, you've got people who are you've got people who work in in in in certain jobs who might be a bouncer at night, >> right?

[00:38:55]>> There's nobody saying you're not in prison.

[00:38:57]>> We're talking about how tax works.

[00:38:59]>> Yeah.

[00:39:00]>> Right. So I think if you look at and I don't want I I I actually don't like picking on people individually. One one of the people whose names been thrown around this weekend passed away last year and it's it's it's terrible. It's terrible. So I'm not going to pick single anybody out. I want to make I'm just making and this is and I don't want even sound as if that much interest in it Matt but I just believe >> that the state broadcaster would be better off the state would be better off and there would be less controversy. I'm not saying it's easy. I'm not saying it wouldn't require a lot of change if if if over a period of time and this is what I thought was going to happen by the way and I think a lot of people thought this is what was going to happen after previous controversies that over time there would be a salary cap and there would be a more regulated employment model where you either worked for RTE or you didn't and it appears that that's not the direction of travel.

[00:39:54]I think it should be.

[00:39:55]>> I don't think this is actually even what the story should be, right? I think this is secondary to the fact of the very existence of RT in the format that it is. The world is changing so dramatically when it comes to media and what people are listening to and what they're watching to use that word, what they're consuming.

[00:40:15]RTE has been left stranded by successive governments. The license fee has not increased since 2008. So at 60 euro it hasn't actually provided enough revenue at the same time as always RT has operated in the commercial sector commercial media revenues are not what they used to be because of the likes of your Googles and your Facebooks and the rest of it drawing money away from old-fashioned traditional media so you have a financial crisis in RT that financial crisis in RTE requires far more imaginative and dramatic thinking than has been applied. I think Kevin Bacherst and his management know full well about the dramatic changes that are actually required but they've been handicapped by government in doing so.

[00:41:05]They drew up a plan which had minimal redundancies for example for the size and look I'm not looking for anybody >> some land >> right I'm not looking for people to lose their jobs and the rest of and I can understand the emotions involved in that and how changing it is for people's lifestyles and their life expecties and experiences and all of that but the reality is RTE gave itself or the government instructed RTE or between them they came up with a plan to reduce the head count or the numbers there by about 400 from 1800 over four years and only do 40 in the first year. There is no private sector media organization that would have gotten away with that.

[00:41:47]And then that meant because the government had to put in place guarantees to cover up the shortfalls.

[00:41:52]Now there's an awful lot of political misrepresentation and saying there's been a 725 million bailout. There hasn't been. There is a certain amount of money has had to go in to make up the shortfalls on the license fee which is a government responsibility and the commercial revenue. Right? So there is some money. Yes. But the real problem for me, the real story in RT is is that it needs absolute fundamental reform as to what it provides and what it can realistically expect to provide. And instead it's a little bit of cutting here and it's 25% of program making goes off to the independent sector and a little bit gone from here. And they'll continue to have various stations that they probably don't need for a public service private mandate such as 2FM.

[00:42:41]They also go into podcasting now and you can say yes podcasting is a large part of the future of media but they're competing with private sector operators like this program using the resources of government bailout. These are the bigger issues than the stuff that the politicians have been getting sound bites out of this week.

[00:42:59]>> Yeah. Yeah. When media like the rest of the economy is constantly changing and evolving and and the challenges that you've set out there for the state broadcaster, you know, the newspaper industry have faced those challenges for the last 20 to 30 years and news newspapers which were staples in this in this in all countries have have reduced in readership, reduced in circulation and many of them have died >> and sorry and can I add to that that as them a lot of them made the transition to digital products RT set up its own website which is essentially a newspaper on the web and nobody stopped RT from doing that.

[00:43:32]>> Well, you're you're more interested in this than I am to be honest.

[00:43:35]>> I am.

[00:43:36]>> Right. So, but >> you can indulge me as well like I indulge you, Brendon. You know, >> I was just looking at the dot there to see how long I'm indulging you.

[00:43:47]But look at the the the everything changes and and media of course is changing with the with the the dawn the internet has long dawned and and in its current evolution and of course that poses challenges to traditional media and of course those challenges have to be faced up and you have a view of Kevin Bhurst and and all that and I'm not going to countermand any of that. I'm simply making a point on the current scandal. If it's a scandal scandal, that's an exaggeration.

[00:44:14]>> I shouldn't have even used that word, but looking at the looking at the amount of air time it's getting, you think it was a scandal. It's not a scandal. I've so little interest in it. It's boring more than >> I waited to the second half of this podcast. You put it in ahead. You've put it in ahead of Palestine. So, >> well, in fairness now, there are a lot of people in Ireland who will say that it's only a section of the Irish community who are interested in Palestine.

[00:44:35]>> We'll talk about that in a minute.

[00:44:36]>> We'll talk about that.

[00:44:37]>> We'll talk about that in a minute. Um there is certainly only a section of the Irish community interested in this. So >> there might be more than >> I suspect most of them are in this postal area so so at the end of the day I think the the controversies if they can be called that certainly one a few years ago and if if this is an extension or not and I see serious people are writing articles about it so maybe it is maybe it isn't.

[00:45:02]I'm making a I'm making a comment about the employment model and I think I think that that could be fixed. I don't expect it to happen overnight, but I thought it was supposed to happen. I picked that up. I kind of picked that up from the last Erotus committees that went on for months there uh two or three years ago that there was going to be a move away from that kind of that kind of model.

[00:45:24]And it seems to me now that that that is kind of at the root of this current is it a producer, is it a presenter debate, right? And I don't want I haven't really any more interest.

[00:45:36]>> Let's move on. Let's talk about the flotillaa which was illegally intercepted by the Israeli Navy in international waters in the Mediterranean and then the appalling people of treatment of the people who had been illegally detained.

[00:45:51]Okay. What's your view on what happened with the float teller this week?

[00:45:54]>> Well, where do we start? But okay, I'll start.

[00:45:57]>> I think I've summed it up in a sense.

[00:46:00]>> Um, the key the key objective of the flotillaa was to try to get desperately needed goods to Gaza.

[00:46:10]>> Was it really?

[00:46:11]>> No. Well, let me >> um I think most I think everybody on the flotilla to be honest would say they never expected that to happen.

[00:46:18]>> Exactly.

[00:46:18]>> Right. So now what has happened is um an international light has been shone on the aborarent nature of the regime that is currently in charge of the the state of Israel.

[00:46:37]um and how it treats the rest of the world in the sense of giving itself an ability to to intercept boats in international waters in acts of piracy and kidnap people um and to then bring them to Israel um abuse them >> and a minister Ben >> come to him in a minute >> abused them break people's bones >> um sexual abuse or intimidation um is being alleged. And >> in separate cases, >> of course, we have Ben who is now being presented by Israel itself as some sort of an aberration who did something not in keeping with their standards.

[00:47:26]>> He's not been fired from government though.

[00:47:28]>> That's a lie.

[00:47:30]What happened to people kidnapped from the flotillaa this week is what is routinely happening to Palestinian prisoners and >> what's happening to them is worse. Um yes and and and and all that has happened this week is because these people uh 14 of them from Ireland, one of them being President Connley's sister um but people from all all around the world, certainly all around Europe um it has it has led to an international outcry but it's a daily routine occurrence um in Israeli prisons in terms of the treatment the aparite treatment the the and and the racism ism, the abuse and the murder of Palestinian people. This is not and I'm the state of Israel as it is currently being run is an aberration on the international stage and it is disgusting that on the very day on the very evening we viewed these pictures on our evening news on Wednesday, the government voted that night against sanctions.

[00:48:46]economic sanctions on Israel in a bill before the doll by 77 votes. There must have 77 votes to do that.

[00:48:51]>> Just explain this bill was put forward by people before profit and this would have outlawed any dealings with Israel.

[00:48:58]>> Yes.

[00:48:59]>> Which is separate to the occupied territories which occupied territories bill in a minute. So and and so we have Mi Mihal Martin which I which I which I which I I welcome on the one hand appearing on our news condemning this aarent behavior towards innocent protesters and peaceful protesters and on the on the other hand whipping people into the doll hours later. And then we have Minister McInty who again I welcome very vocally and very strongly condemning this particular action but then making Well, we'll see. But to me, I've heard it all before. Vague promises about the enactment of the occupied territories bill, which it still seems is going to exclude uh services, notwithstanding the fact that there's an erotus an all party rockus committee last last year that says it should be included. Um, now to be fair to to to to Minister Mcant, she's also arguing that it would be more effective if if if these issues were addressed through the withdrawal from the by the EU of the EUI Israel trade agreement. And just to be clear about this, the EUI Israel trade agreement for people who just hear those words and don't know what it is, it's a tariffree agreement where Israeli goods can be imported into the EU. And what Israel are doing is they are taking goods manufactured and produced in the occupied territories which should which should in law be subject to international sanction and are are wrapping and packaging them and exporting them as Israeli goods even if they come from the occupied territories. and the occupied territories at this point, by the way, includes part of Syria.

[00:50:48]Um, we'll get to football in a minute.

[00:50:50]You'll wonder where this is all going.

[00:50:52]Um, and a kosher would be better if the EU um wasn't hackled by German generational guilt for the atrocities that they visited on the world in the 1930s and the 1940s.

[00:51:08]and the and the EU grew a set and and ended this agreement. But but if they can't whether that be economically Minister Mcanti through the occupied territories bill or whether that be in sport, Mr. O'Donovan, we cannot play this country, this aarent regime running Israel now. We cannot possibly play them in a football match.

[00:51:37]>> In two football matches, but one in there's one there's one a few hundred yards from here.

[00:51:42]>> Yeah. In October the 4th, I think it's >> we cannot in good conscience play them.

[00:51:46]>> Patrick Donovan said it will cause more trouble than it's worth to have the game and for the FI to be cancelled. H he's saying people can make up their own minds as to whether they want to attend or not or protest or not. Um I would >> people have made up their minds, Patrick. They'll be protesting.

[00:52:04]>> Yeah.

[00:52:05]>> I don't think anybody should be at that game.

[00:52:08]>> I don't think the game will go ahead.

[00:52:09]>> I don't think it'll go ahead either in in Dublin. It may go ahead elsewhere. I think it might go ahead on a neutral venue. Some other country will take it in continent.

[00:52:17]>> Can I just say and I don't want to be harsh on Patrick Dunovan now because we we discussed we discussed him him in a previous podcast about the dark and whole and look at the I'm sure the man is is is doing his his absolute best to to keep on top of his portfolio.

[00:52:31]matters of conscience about genocide should not be left to individuals to decide as as I understand international law and maybe some lawyer will will listen to this and correct me if if you're out there and you're listening please do but as I understand international law international international law Israel have been are being investigated and there are international arrest warrants issued >> yeah but I don't think they recognize the international criminal court do they and and Trump has recognized with China and Russia I'm talking about what Ireland recognizes >> Ireland recognizes the international criminal court >> and as I understand international law on that basis >> we are required as a nation and as a people to take steps to oppose genocide once that genocide has been is being investigated or called out it's taken too long by the way but that's that's established, >> right? So, we have a moral and legal obligation. So, I don't know and I don't know how a government who on the one hand calls it a genocide, who on the other hand represents the international court, can say on the other hand, oh, but we'll just play them and it's up to people whether to buy tickets or not.

[00:53:47]It's a copout. It's cowardly. And I think it's internationally in law and morally impermissible. The game cannot go ahead. And I'm not saying that as an opinion. I think that's the law. Okay, one last thing. We're not going to get to everything. I had hoped to bring up the issue of of potential Dublin airport expansion.

[00:54:09]Uh but I don't think we're going to have time. But I do want to ask you as a former employee of Irish Rail for how many years were you a train driver?

[00:54:17]>> Well, as a former employee of Irish Rail 13 years, a train driver for 10.

[00:54:20]>> Okay. What do you make of the 50 million quid it looks like has been wasted on an IT system for uh managing the trains around the country? Well, well, it's staggering. Uh and and it would be staggering if it was any company.

[00:54:35]Um it would be st it's it's it's as staggering as the bike sheds. It's as staggering as the children's hospital.

[00:54:42]It's it's a staggering waste of public money. And just to put it in context, um, we're talking about, you know, a system. We have 600 train journeys a day in this country.

[00:54:56]London alone, how many train journeys do you think there are in London in a day?

[00:55:00]>> Oh, there must be thousands, are there?

[00:55:02]>> 20,000.

[00:55:03]>> Yeah.

[00:55:04]>> Between 18 and 20,000.

[00:55:06]Um, we've 600. And when you read in the paper, you poor Aaron have to deal with 600 train journey. Sounds like a lot, doesn't it? It's nothing. You could fix the entire Irish rail network into into a section of just the Greater London train network. And the idea 50 million.

[00:55:26]I tell you what, give me a million. I'll do a train scheduling system for you.

[00:55:31]It's not this. I don't I simply don't understand.

[00:55:35]>> But it's real time monitoring.

[00:55:37]>> Maybe even uses artificial intelligence.

[00:55:39]>> Imagine imagine there there's a phone there.

[00:55:43]And I people might think ah he's being a smart Irish now and maybe I am a bit um but I I couldn't believe it when I heard it and and I couldn't believe it when I heard it because public money has no value.

[00:55:56]>> Yeah, but hold on. Aren't you one of the people who believes that there should be greater state involvement in the economy?

[00:56:02]>> Well, that's not the same as setting fire to money.

[00:56:05]Yeah, but isn't it that it seems that when it comes to the use of money, state money, it gets so much of it gets wasted and yet you want to expand the role of the state.

[00:56:15]>> Hold on a minute. You can't you can't pay one of the smallest railway companies in Europe wasting 50 million euro.

[00:56:24]>> Do you think I'm defending it?

[00:56:26]>> No, but you can't you can't say that.

[00:56:27]But that's an argument as to why we should abolish state enterprise.

[00:56:31]>> No, no, that's not what I said. You're mis misrepresenting me. I was quite specific. I was asking you about the expansion of the role of the state to solve our economic woes. Doesn't seemly make sense when you give us all those examples like you just did, not me.

[00:56:45]>> That's the worst that's that's that's the worst example that that you could pick of. It's like me saying, you know, we we have to do a private private enterprise because Elon Musk is earing earning a ridiculous amount of money and he actually doesn't have actually have money. He just has shares and things.

[00:56:58]But that it's you know this look at let's let's be real here and and again this it's this isn't about Arod Aaron because I've said the bike sheds I've said the sh this is about Ireland this is about our expectations >> I will bring in Dublin airport so because one of the things in recent weeks we've learned the board of Dublin airport the DAA wants to spend 5.35 billion on an expansion of facilities that would bring capacity up to 45 thou 45 million a 5.35 billion. They're not even building a new terminal. They're not building new, right? What in the name of God? I mean, I know that I think Michael Liry was wrong to oppose terminal 2. He wanted terminal 2. He didn't want what he calls the goldplated version that we got, which is why Ryan Air won't go in there. I think in the long run, we complained bitterly about it costing 900 million euro, but if we didn't have that terminal 2 there at the moment, what in God's name would we have at Dublin airport? It would be an absolute mess.

[00:57:59]But at the same time, why so much? I mean, if you are going to be spending that much money, surely you want to double the capacity at Dublin airport, put in new terminals rather than new peers. I heard another radio show yesterday um which I won't mention but other people will >> as long as it wasn't between half 4 and 7:00 on that.

[00:58:19]>> I I constantly glued to glued to my radio listening to your doulster tones and within those hours on a daily basis.

[00:58:26]So so but I heard another radio show and they were talking about a rail expansion in Rome that went under the coliseum a metro.

[00:58:39]>> Yeah. that they actually built under the coliseum.

[00:58:42]>> Did they undermine the foundations of the coliseum?

[00:58:44]>> They they've managed to do it for about a tenth of the cost that we are talking about in relation to building the metron north. So there's something about Ireland what and and and it has to be it has to at the end go to government and it's be come back to RT going to the controller and order general probably a good thing. There's something about Ireland where public money be it a bike shed be it a children's hospital be it be it a road era not being able to come up with a timetable or be it whatever whatever you think what you're worried about Dublin airport by the way it strikes me that the other airports around Dublin could be doing with some investment around Ireland could be doing with some investment Ireland is not all about Dublin >> it's I agree entirely but the issue is a lot of the airlines just want to go to Dublin that's the reality on it not being offered >> track the other thing is a lot of the time though the delays and I forgot to bring this up with Leadkar and Onya Karen the subscription edition when we were talking about infrastructure but a lot of the reason why the cost of thing goes up is because of delay and there's now talk again this week you know the Dublin Navan railway line is back in the news again preferred route stations have been nominated the rest of it all with the ambition of having the planning application made in 2028 >> I see and the work might start in I think 2032 or 2031 Yeah, this is for something that I know for 25 years we've been talking about.

[01:00:06]>> We are getting old match. You know it it >> I have one of my work colleagues works in Navan and as I said to endearment you will be retired before you're able to depress it's really depressing when the projects you first heard about when you were a young man are still applying for planning permission when you're an old man >> and the guards are a lot younger too than you know that's another one Brendan Ogal thank you very much for being with us in path to par as I said subscription editions the weekly path to par America with Marian Mun is available and also from Sunday Leo Veradkar and Ana Karan the latest subscription edition. So lots for you to listen to. My big thanks to uh to uh Aiden Par and Tom McAuliff for all the work in relation to the production and we will be back again next week. Hope you can join us then from me Matt Cooper. Thank you.