Frank Gioia Jr Talks About If Luigi Mangione Was With The Lucchese Family Back In The 1990's

Added: 2026-05-05

[00:00:07]name that uh I don't I don't >> [clears throat] >> Louis Manzione the kid who killed the uh Oh, yeah. CEO of uh what was it? United Healthcare? Yeah. Okay.

[00:00:23]Is that displace emotions? Or is that just a murder a guy who just murdered somebody?

[00:00:29]He was mad at the federal He's mad at the I'm not And again, I know I might get ripped a path for this. Okay, he was mad at the the um healthcare system. There's no justification on killing somebody.

[00:00:42]Well, I mean, in the way we're thinking about it, that's what it would be. It would be a person who's who's mad at the uh health system, who's mad at the government, who's mad at their parents, who's mad at whatever they're mad at, and they say, "You know what? I'm mad at that. I'm going to get this guy from the health system." And all of this stuff that they're carrying around, they find someone to displace it onto.

[00:01:09]I tell you what though. That may not necessarily be the case. It's a It's a hypothesis. It It's a possibility that that's what it is.

[00:01:20]I'm going to put the gangster hat on.

[00:01:22]Okay, from a gangster perspective we would have called this kid back in the street if he was with us. Would we have called him a good kid?

[00:01:29]Good in what in what sense? No, no, no, we we would have been proud of him.

[00:01:34]The way he did the piece of work. First off, again, I'm talking like we're back in the street, right?

[00:01:39]Okay, we would have we would have back in the street if we were sitting down at a table and this kid was with us, meaning that he was part of the Lucchese family and he went out and carried a piece of work out like that. Not towards a CEO of a healthcare company, but just a piece of work in general. Piece of work meaning carrying out a murder, go kill somebody.

[00:02:00]The way he did it and how he got away with it and how he navigated through the city and how he they had the manhunt on him and all that other stuff.

[00:02:08]We would have classified him as he's a good good kid.

[00:02:12]He's with us and we would have been proud of him.

[00:02:15]Whereas today I got a different perspective on it.

[00:02:20]Mhm. You know? So, you look back and you try to correlate if I'm making any sense with this, all right?

[00:02:28]It just you you think about it and you go like this, you can't even today, I guess they still will look at him like as, you know, I mean, there's a lot of people who want to see this A lot of people who want to see him beat the case.

[00:02:40]Yes.

[00:02:41]>> him. They're raising money and all that other stuff.

[00:02:43]>> Yes. Yes. You know, people that have nothing to do with the mob. Yeah.

[00:02:46]Just in general.

[00:02:47]It's not displaced anger if you feel like well, it's your job, I got to do it.

[00:02:55]That's not displaced anger.

[00:02:59]Okay, so that makes that's >> That's different.

[00:03:02]You know, you're >> no anger at all. How about this >> anger at all. Right.

[00:03:05]>> What do you call that?

[00:03:08]Well, that's a cold-blooded murder Okay, [laughter] good.

[00:03:13]I mean, if there's no anger at all and you're saying, "You know what? I decided that this person you know has to go for whatever reason." That's just premeditated. A A lot of people do that that aren't in the mob. You know, I mean Now, we're not only talking about the mafia here. We're talking about human in general. Right. No, there's there is I mean, uh you know, you watch these shows where the loving couple you know one day the the guy's in the hospital all crippled up, they don't know why, and then they find out that his wife's been feeding him antifreeze in the tea.

[00:03:52]That's That's pretty cold-blooded.

[00:03:56]>> [laughter] >> There's you know Go break. So, another thing that I've been meaning to ask you that I seen was very interesting to me was guilty but in but guilty but insane verdict.

[00:04:11]How could you be guilty with an insane verdict? Well, it Arizona is one of the Not all states have this, but Arizona is one of the states that does have it. And what it means is they're saying, "Okay, you committed this crime, but during the time of the crime you didn't know the difference between right or wrong. So, you were insane at the time of the crime.

[00:04:35]Or at the time of the crime you were it was you were you had an impulse that made you do it. So, you were guilty, but you were under the influence of a mental illness at the time of the crime.

[00:04:52]And so, what happens is uh they Now, I don't know where it is now because they no longer have a state hospital. It used to be that you would be sentenced to the state hospital. And then you would have treatment at the state hospital for restoration of your sanity. Now, I'm going to have to uh It's been a while since I've actually worked with this particular Now, it may be that when they restore you, you still have to serve a sentence.

[00:05:29]After the state hospital >> After the state hospital.

[00:05:32]>> So, the good meals and this played the cush place the whole time you still have to stay in the prison.

[00:05:36]>> Right. You still have to You still have to serve the sentence.

[00:05:39]Or another option might be that when you're restored there's a committee at the hospital that can determine whether or not you should be released.

[00:05:53]So, that's another I think part of that program. I'm not sure how it's working now, but the concept basically is that the court accepts that you were insane at the time of the crime, but they're going to help you get restored to your sanity and then kind of decide do you serve out your sentence? Can you be released on parole?

[00:06:17]That kind of a thing. So, it's very very unique to Arizona. It sounds like the state has a lot more Mhm. loopholes than the feds do cuz the feds There's a lot of stuff that's not admissible. There's a lot of stuff that's um you know, it's more like uh their way. Mhm. You know, it sounds like the state you got a lot more leeway on defending yourself. I think that may be true. You get your discovery faster and all that is for sure because the feds what they'll do is they'll piecemeal the discovery.

[00:06:47]And you got to wait like right up until the day you go to trial to get your discovery.

[00:06:52]In the state I think they submit your discovery faster. Everything is more I think I want to say fair.

[00:06:59]I think there's more of a a due process in the state. I think another factor is that in at the state level you're the the feds deal with big crime. At a state level you're dealing with an insane person who's on the street, who robs a candy store and punches a woman in the face and runs out. I mean, you're dealing with more petty type of stuff, stuff that happens more within the community, so to speak.

[00:07:31]So, that probably does affect uh how they handle the law in terms of the mental health and insanity kind of issues because they have to deal more with nitty-gritty stuff that goes on in the streets. Whereas I think the feds deal with much bigger kinds of things.

[00:07:51]So, maybe some of the issues that the state has to deal with the feds don't have to deal with quite so much. Because you think of it, I mean, think of the people that are homeless, so many of them are actually mentally ill. And a lot of people commit crimes that are mentally ill because they're just they're mental you know, they're out of it.

[00:08:12]You've been to San Diego before, right?

[00:08:14]Yes, I have. It's It's been a while.

[00:08:16]It's been a number of years.

[00:08:19]I don't think everybody they're acting like they're homeless, but they're not. Ah.

[00:08:23]I mean I had an experience once where, you know, there was uh a homeless person you know, posing to be homeless.

[00:08:33]Guy had a cell phone.

[00:08:35]Uh He had a car, license. I mean, it was a joke.

[00:08:41]I don't know why he do it.

[00:08:42]You know, a lot of people you look at I'm not saying there's people that rightfully are homeless. Uh-huh. But some of these people make you think. You look at them and you say, "Wait a second, are you really homeless? Yeah.

[00:08:52]You're walking around with a cell phone.

[00:08:53]You're walking around with, you know, you look like you're you know, you just you don't look homeless. Yeah.

[00:09:00]You just never know. It may be that there's more people playing the system now than there used to be at one time.

[00:09:06]I That's what I'm getting at.

[00:09:07]>> that could be that could be a very definite factor. Yeah, like the whatever system that whatever they have for homeless >> Yeah.

[00:09:15]What benefits they get, you know? Yeah.

[00:09:18]But I wanted to ask you about the when a person comes out of let's say a person comes out of prison.

[00:09:25]You You believe therapy is important?

[00:09:28]Well, I do. I do because I think I I think sometimes the part that therapy can play is simply being a support system. So, if a person comes out of prison, having someone you can talk to, having someone that you can just solve problems with, you know, I'm dealing with this problem in my life right now.

[00:09:49]This is a difficulty I'm having. I don't know if it has to be therapy like going back into your childhood and resolving issues.

[00:09:58]>> egg? Exactly. But more about, you know, how do I solve these problems that I'm facing right now and I don't feel like I have any support and how can I get some help in thinking these things through? I think in a very practical way therapy and counseling can be very helpful.

[00:10:16]I I agree.

[00:10:18]It reminds me when I went to that intensive therapy, right? The first thing they had us do you know, from 7:00 in the morning to 7:00 at night on starting on a Monday and it ended on the following Sunday, okay?

[00:10:31]But Saturday we had to go part-time and they told us to meet at a horse farm.

[00:10:36]Okay.

[00:10:36]>> Okay, whatever they were having uh they were having horses, okay? Okay.

[00:10:42]And what they did was there's a there was a team of psychologists or psychiatrists, they were all there with with pen and pencil.

[00:10:47]Uh-huh. And they had horses there, right? And they said, "Okay." They gave us chores to do with the horses. Uh-huh.

[00:10:55]And I'm saying, "What the [ __ ] is this?

[00:10:57]I paid all this money." Uh-huh. Yeah, what's this got to do with psychology, you know? Right.

[00:11:03]Well, it showed that the way humans interact with horses tells you a lot about that person. Uh-huh. I don't know why it's a horse. I don't know why it is what it is, but scientifically proven that the way we whether we interact with a horse Uh-huh. or how we approach the horse, how we react to a horse, how a horse approaches us, reacts to us, whatever the case is that tells you about the true makeup of a person. Uh-huh. And I could not believe it, right? They didn't they had us interact with the horses.

[00:11:36]They all watched and observed us and they took notes. So, it's all they were doing was taking notes. Uh-huh. And we must have did these things as a team.

[00:11:42]Some some things we did in a group.

[00:11:44]Like try to get the horses to do this or there was some kind of problem-solving, you know, but it was all to do with the horses. Uh-huh.

[00:11:52]And it was about maybe I want to say two or three hours long, maybe four hours, right? Well, at the end of your session, which is a week later they give you a report on what they assess your personality traits, your your uh your your what whatever makes you tick, right?

[00:12:12]And it was so accurate.

[00:12:14]All from the study with the horses.

[00:12:18]I couldn't believe it. Hm.

[00:12:21]Then the next thing was this Gestapo therapy. Uh-huh.

[00:12:26]>> Gestalt I think you mentioned it once.

[00:12:28]Gestapo or Gestalt? Oh, Gestalt. Okay, I got it.

[00:12:32]>> Gestalt Gestalt.

[00:12:34]Gestalt therapy is in layman's terms what what was that?

[00:12:38]>> Well, Gestalt therapy is is based on having some kind of experience, emotional experience, like psychodrama where you act something out.

[00:12:50]You have you so that you try and have the experience of what it's like and then talk about how that experience was so that you can understand it better.

[00:13:01]Uh that's kind of what Gestalt is therapy. So, Gestalt therapy has a lot of things where you role-play, you know, one person takes the role of the wife, the other person and then they switch.

[00:13:14]The wife will take the role of the husband and they you know Yeah, so that they you know, what it feels like to be the other person and then [clears throat] talk about that.

[00:13:24]So, psychodrama was one of my favorite classes because you know, the way it sounds psychodrama like you know, nobody was a psycho in the place.

[00:13:32]It's just I guess the medical [clears throat] term, right?

[00:13:35]This guy came to PCS because he was being bullied all his life. Well, he was bullied from a kid. They they scientifically proved that whatever happens to you from when you're born until 11 years old, I don't know why it's 11 shapes you for the rest of your life.

[00:13:49]It's proven.

[00:13:51]This guy was bullied as a kid. He would go home and tell his mom and dad and he got all these voices in his head. His mom would say one thing, the dad the mother would believe him, the father wouldn't believe him and all these things are going on and he carried with him through his whole life. And the guy was a real prominent attorney out of Texas, very successful.

[00:14:08]You would not think this guy had any issues at all, you know?

[00:14:12]So, we got to the psychodrama class and mind you, we're going in these rooms from hour to hour. You're going to one-on-one therapy, you're going to a group session, one-on-one group. You're doing all different one building to another building.

[00:14:27]And really like, you know, it's like brain dump. Like they're just taking your I felt like they screwed my head open and just dumped my brain out and put a new one in, right? When you get done.

[00:14:38]But it's hard for you to keep remembering all that stuff to to tap into it. Uh-huh.

[00:14:42]>> what I'm saying? To make it like reflex.

[00:14:44]Uh-huh. So, anyway get to the psychodrama class and I was his problem.

[00:14:49]So, the lady that was the instructor says, "Okay, who's going to play? I need somebody to play the mom. I need somebody to play the dad. I need somebody to play his friends.

[00:14:58]Somebody to play the bully. Somebody to play the tough voice.

[00:15:02]Somebody to play the scared voice.

[00:15:05]Different voices and stuff like that."

[00:15:07]And they set it up to where, you know, like um they covered people. Like they put blankets over people.

[00:15:13]So, you would just hear their voice. You wouldn't see them. You would just hear them. Uh-huh. And then his mother sat in the chair and then the father sat in the chair.

[00:15:20]I chose to be the tough voice. Like I was the one that voice of confidence.

[00:15:24]Uh-huh.

[00:15:25]>> You know?

[00:15:26]And they had a heavy bag there cuz when I first walked in the room I said, "What do you got a heavy bag in here for?"

[00:15:31]Well, for that reason cuz they wanted him to role-play the whole trauma.

[00:15:35]Uh-huh. Which they called it a big T.

[00:15:37]Like they got big Ts and little Ts. You heard that before, right?

[00:15:40]>> Uh-huh.

[00:15:41]They wanted him to role-play the whole situation.

[00:15:45]And it was it was a lot of fun to do but at the same time this guy was really so emotional because he he went back to his inner child.

[00:15:55]His crying child. Uh-huh. That we all have, right? Uh-huh. The [clears throat] sobbing child they call it.

[00:16:00]>> Uh-huh. And this guy got all his emotions out. This guy was mad, sad, crying.

[00:16:08]You know, that's how much it it moved him, right?

[00:16:10]>> Uh-huh.

[00:16:11]So, the instructor would tell the mother and ask him, "Okay, what would your mom say?" "Well, she would say this and that." And then she told that that person that was there, "Okay, all I want you to do is just keep saying what his mom said."

[00:16:24]"What would your dad say?" "My dad would say this." "Well, all I want you to do is what his dad used to say."

[00:16:29]And then what would happen is when the whole thing got reenacted the instructor would say she would snap and go, "Okay, mom, dad."

[00:16:36]Like she was directing the whole thing.

[00:16:38]Uh-huh.

[00:16:40]So, towards the end this guy was so this guy was so worked up.

[00:16:47]Okay? Cuz I'm yelling at him, "Kick his ass! Kick his ass! Punch him in the face!" And everybody's yelling at the same time. Mother's going, "I don't believe you." And the father's going, "You're a disgrace." Everybody's ganging up and saying things. Finally this guy just went They had the heavy bag and he finally threw a punch.

[00:17:05]>> [snorts] >> You could see the guy never threw a punch in his life, right? The guy threw a punch and after that he fell on the floor and he was just like And I'm like, "How do you feel?" He's like "Oh my god." You know, it's like when somebody gets baptized.

[00:17:17]>> Yeah. They throw him in the water and he gets up and he's like, "Oh, I feel like you know, brand new, right?"

[00:17:23]>> Yeah.

[00:17:24]I had all day from laughing. I mean, it was a very emotional time for him, you know? And at the end of the class they said "Okay, we're going to go around the room and everybody give their opinion of what he should do when he goes back to Dallas."

[00:17:37]Okay.

[00:17:39]So, everybody gave their opinion. When it came time to me I said I said, "I got a couple questions. Where was this guy that bullied you?" He said, "Well, he's another attorney. He works in the same" I said, "Where is he at?"

[00:17:50]He said, "He works in the same town."

[00:17:52]I said, "Okay.

[00:17:53]Here's what I advise you to do.

[00:17:55]When you go back to Dallas walk in his office, grab him by his shirt and tie and punch him in the face.

[00:18:01]That's going to solve all your problems."

[00:18:04]>> [laughter] >> I shouldn't be laughing.

[00:18:08]The director goes "Okay, uh FC cuz I was on the Frank Capria. Uh we're not going to promote or condone [laughter] uh confidence or violence." I said, "No, I'm not telling him to be violent.

[00:18:21]>> No. Punch him in the face the way he punched you in the face. And it's going to you know That's a non-violent punch in the face.

[00:18:28]>> Yes.

[00:18:29]Just the [laughter] not the the way you punch that heavy bag.

[00:18:32]Go punch him in the face. You're going to feel a lot better."

[00:18:36]But there came times where you you're going through this trauma egg and EMDR I think really was was effective.

[00:18:46]You know, when you put on the headphones and they think of a happy place. Well, everybody thinks of a beach, you >> You know, and and think of your sad places. And then they you get these these vibrational Yeah, cute.

[00:19:02]You get these vibrational beeps in your head. Uh-huh. You know what EMDR is? Yeah.

[00:19:10]And you hear these things going and then they actually question like, "What was What comes to your mind?" Uh-huh. So you say what comes to your mind. Yeah.

[00:19:18]>> And you almost get into this I don't know if it's the hitting or tapping into your inner ear >> [sighs] >> or what it is, but that that vibe that that that beeping sound that gets louder and louder. Uh-huh. And then it [clears throat] fades away. I don't know what it does to senses to your brain or your inner ear. I read about it, but then it got too complex for me. It was just going into like Yeah.

[00:19:40]>> stuff like I said, "Wait a second. I'm not trying to be a doctor here, yeah?"

[00:19:42]>> [clears throat] >> But um I mean, did you find it helpful or what did you >> Very helpful.

[00:19:49]Very helpful. I would do it again and again. Uh-huh.

[00:19:52]>> again and again. Uh huh.

[00:19:54]>> [music]