Zoom Meeting 8th May- Hearth pounding

Added: 2026-05-19

[00:00:13]running out of space.

[00:00:16]My laptop.

[00:00:19]Um, this is a um a sharing in open friendship.

[00:00:26]So, it's an agenderless friendship. It's something that doesn't require or ask anything of anybody.

[00:00:36]And the reason it doesn't is there's nobody to ask anything of.

[00:00:41]There's there's simply whatever is appearing to happen.

[00:00:49]It's the suggestion that there is simply whatever is appearing to happen and that the sense that there's a you that it's happening to is a narrative or a story that there isn't actually a you there. So it appears to come out of this gob. Um but there's nothing known here. There's nothing here that isn't there. uh there's no authority, there's no teaching, it's just a sharing or suggestion from nothing.

[00:01:28]And it's um a conversation and you just can't go wrong with this really because um there's it's not possible to go wrong really because you can't ask a silly question. You know, you could it could be appear to be something silly, especially if there's no real interest in what's been said and it's just messing around, but like if there's a sincerely one, you know, a sincere curiosity about what's been said or um you know, it doesn't matter. It's just a it's just um it's there to be asked, you know. Um or you could just say hello or say whatever. It doesn't matter. And this is how this kind of appears to work is this this conversation which is um energetic.

[00:02:19]It's just a it's concerned with a resonance not about knowing anything or getting anything because really there's nothing to know. The sense that there's something to know something to get is directly out of the sense of being a separate you.

[00:02:35]Um and when there is that sense of being a you then there's a a living in knowing. So if there's a a feeling there's something missing then of course it can be known because experientially things can be known in in your life. Um so a question arises and uh you know it's either asked or it isn't. you don't have to ask it, but if if you're or a comment or a question and there appears to be an answer from here. Um, and that that conversation then that opens up is boundless, absolutely boundless, infinite, eternal.

[00:03:27]And it's um it's also not anything. It's not anything special because it's the collapse of special and not special.

[00:03:42]So we'll talk and we'll uh yeah, we'll see what appears to happen. It's really lovely to see you.

[00:03:52]Maybe Friday evening's a good good evening to do these Hi, Kenneth.

[00:04:53]>> Hi, Karen. How you doing?

[00:04:55]>> I am good.

[00:04:57]I've stayed away a few weeks cuz I didn't used to be able to hear you and now I can hear you perfectly with your new headset.

[00:05:09]>> I think that was um I think that was a case of it's not it's not me, it's you.

[00:05:15]Karen, >> the or when you have the orange ones on.

[00:05:21]Okay, it's me. There's no me and there's no you. But like a few weeks ago, you had the orange headsets on and I was having a hard time hearing you. Okay, doesn't matter. But >> yeah, I I apologize. Yeah, it >> Yeah, might have been me. Whatever. It doesn't matter. But thank you. I'm happy hour here in the in the US, so it's perfect time.

[00:05:50]Thank you.

[00:05:51]>> Ah, lovely.

[00:05:55]Do you east coast or west coast or where?

[00:05:57]>> Coast. I'm in Florida. Yeah.

[00:05:59]>> Ah, lovely. Yeah.

[00:06:01]>> Yeah.

[00:06:03]So, well, while I'm on here, I'm so it's maybe a stupid question, but um what's the difference between awakening and liberation?

[00:06:17]Oh, they're just terms that are used like um doesn't really matter, but I think a lot of the way when when I first heard those terms, uh I heard them used in many many different ways, but obviously like a lot of speakers, the first clear speaker I heard was Tony and I liked his differentiation and I didn't really um differ from that myself. It made it was kind of made logical sense to me and it's very simple really like is that liber I would describe an awakening and a glimpse is kind of the same thing really like a glimpse is usually just a kind but a little bit kind of just like a burst of oh what what what was that you know what what that's different or well you know it can be subtle or it could be more powerful or whatever um and I would kind of put an awakening like into the same category really although there tends to be there can be more of a narrative around it about how it impacts you know how it hits. Um but really liberation is a complete non-event then and the reason that say uh awakening or a glimpse is described as more of an event is its contrast to what appears to be back to the norm of me living my life then do you know what I mean? So, so you're kind of pottering away thinking you're living your life in this kind of linear reality, causal reality, whatever. And then there's this there's this boom, you know, and people describe it like there was no time maybe or everything was eternal or whatever words they use. And then then it appears to be that there's someone back trying to make sense of what happened then to them, right? So then that's usually the way it works. That's how it works really is be energetically it's like you are this contracted there is no you but there's this contracted sense of being in the body and looking out on the world. So you're here living your life and then it can just not be there and there's just what's appearing to happen and it's it's indescribable really but it's just you know boom or you know whatever how whatever words people use it's just um but I would people would logically think that something happened to them then whereas it's more accurate description would be nothing actually really happens but that sense of you just wasn't there anymore. So nothing happened to you, but the sense of you fell away and then appeared to come back, right? So then when it appears to come back, it's like, what what happened to me? What did I do to make that happen?

[00:09:16]Or blah blah blah. What were the circumstances?

[00:09:19]Um, and so on. A liberation is a complete and utter non-event because liberation is that there's simply whatever is appearing to happen and it's ex it's ex it's it's very obvious there's no you and there never was a you there's just what's appearing to happen. So liberation is not a happening in that sense and it's it's like having a cup of tea. It's okay there's just what appearing to happen. Um and I think that's how they would be the two terms would be maybe differentiated but also like there is only liberation.

[00:10:00]So saying there is only liberation is the same as when you hear people say there's only energy actually there's only actually boundless energy which is nothing being everything or saying there's only unconditional love that's all the same saying all the same thing really does that answer your question or >> yeah yes thank you um another thing I've heard is that liberation is the end of seeking Does that fit in what you're saying there, do you think?

[00:10:34]>> Yeah, I I wouldn't I would find that hard to argue with. Not that not that I'm looking to argue with anybody or anything. Uh but yeah, absolutely. Like uh seeking is directly seeking in the way that we're talking about it is is the energetic sense of you being you. So it's the energetic sense of there being a you that's living your life in a separate dualistic world then where there's there's the world and there's you. So therefore what that throws up or an aspect of that is there's a question about that then like like a lot of people wouldn't wouldn't classify themselves as seekers at all actually. They would say no that that's not me. I don't I don't do this meditation thing or that I'm happy, you know, doing what I'm doing and I'm working and I'm I fine blah blah blah. A lot of people wouldn't. But what what I would say is that actually there's nobody that isn't seeking once they once there's a sense of separateness.

[00:11:43]So liberation is actually the most simple ordinary thing that there is and that's the problem.

[00:11:54]um there's already nobody. So when there is this sense of separate you, there's a question then uh because there's a sense of why is there the world and me you know why is there like why why is there everything and me like h what did I do to lose everything you know um and then then there's the seeking so the seeking plays out like it plays out in the way that it does completely unique to the charact the character and that particular apparent person. And um when there is no longer a sense of being a separate individual, there's nothing to seek because because this is whole and complete.

[00:12:45]This is nothing being everything. So where what would there be to seek when this is like if this is this is everything zoom appearing as a zoom meeting you know if you want to stay with the logical linear uh real then this is a zoom meeting on Friday the 8th of May that started on time for once at quart 9 and it's it's whatever. You know what I mean? It's real like it's really happening and Kenneth speaking now and there's these other people and blah blah blah. But actually it's it's it's that it's that way in its appearance but really um it's aliveness wholeness appearing as a Zoom meeting.

[00:13:35]It's this is all this is boundless wholeness eternal infinite oneness.

[00:13:46]And and it turns out that boundless wholeness is extremely simple and ordinary.

[00:13:54]Of course it is. Of course it is.

[00:13:57]Because if it's boundless wholeness, then it's always been simply whatever is appearing to happen.

[00:14:04]But when when there's a sense of being separate, then there's this dichotomy or duality between simple and extraordinary or special and not special. And it can't and a sense that like, well, it's, you know, yeah, it's grand. It's okay like, but nah, there's something juicy to get my get my hands on somewhere, you know. And I've heard this person who who got enlightened and he talks about blissful unconditional love blowing out the top of your head and that's what I think I think I want to get there like this is fine you know it's sitting here and it's watching the screen and yeah it's it's nice but it's not no there's something else you know and that's the way it is there's a sense there's something else there's somewhere to get to there's something and and very much a sense of special not special so you'd rather obviously you'd rather is special. So, you kind of work your way to that and experientially even kind of think you get there for a while, but then it slips through your fingers again.

[00:15:13]>> Thank you very much.

[00:15:15]>> Nice to see you.

[00:15:16]>> You too.

[00:15:55]Hi, Kenneth.

[00:15:56]>> Hi, Carla.

[00:15:58]>> Hi. Nice to meet you.

[00:15:59]>> You, too.

[00:16:01]>> Quoting quote.

[00:16:05]Um, I had a question last time, but I was a bit too shy to ask.

[00:16:11]>> Um, and this time I um I also feel really nervous because there's loads of people watching.

[00:16:18]Well, there's not actually, but um you know, >> it's just And what's a nervous feeling?

[00:16:27]Like it's energy, isn't it?

[00:16:28]>> Yeah. It's just it's just like my heart started racing because I was like I wanted to speak, but >> Yeah, I know. And and and the heart racing is isn't that aliveness?

[00:16:38]>> Yeah.

[00:16:39]>> Yeah. There you go.

[00:16:40]>> Yeah.

[00:16:41]>> It's lovely. Um, I wanted to ask you, um, does all of your mind, um, know like 100% like every single part of your mind know that you're not real.

[00:17:00]>> Um, no, I would say it's the opposite of that. I don't know anything actually.

[00:17:06]>> Oh, I see what you mean. Okay.

[00:17:07]>> I don't know. I don't know anything. And any any any clear communication comes from unknowing. And when when there's a speaker who who maybe speaks from knowing and maybe even calls themselves a non-dual teacher, which is a good one.

[00:17:22]Um it's energetically completely different than for me, but it's for some people it wouldn't be. It' be the same.

[00:17:28]They'd lump it in with this and that's fine. Um it's not right or wrong. It's just different. Uh this is not knowable.

[00:17:38]So if I if I knew that it wasn't knowable, >> yeah, >> then I would be then speaking to you so that you could know that it's not knowable. And then what we do is we just go around and round in this loop of knowing and it has a different feel to it.

[00:17:54]>> Like it's trying to look inside your own eyes, but you can't.

[00:17:58]>> Yeah. Yeah. Finger can't point at itself, you know, and all that all that lovely stuff. Yeah. So I mean that's the really kind of fundamentally it's that I don't there's no one here that feels they have a mind. Um and and obviously other people don't have a mind either or have a brain or have anything actually but when they speak they talk they they refer to themselves and they indicate that they are they feel that they are an individual who very much has two hands, two feet and a mind and other stuff going on. they're they're they're living their life and that that's um that's a an illusion or a story.

[00:18:43]>> Um my other question for you was um how come I feel like I am me, >> but you get to feel like you're not.

[00:18:57]>> Yeah.

[00:18:57]>> Cuz sometimes I think I wish I could feel like that. Like I'm >> Yeah.

[00:19:02]>> enlightened.

[00:19:06]I I have no idea what it's what it's like to be enlightened and I'm certainly not enlightened. I mean there there nobody's ever become enlightened actually ever. Nobody.

[00:19:18]>> No, enlightenment doesn't exist really.

[00:19:21]>> Well, enlightenment is the scene that there is nobody. So who becomes enlightened then? You know, and of course I hear what you're saying, like it definitely when people hear this, it it's impossible actually not to hear this and have it be have it sound like some sort of carrot. Well, obviously it can be heard and say it's a bunch of but if if there's some sort of draw to it, uh it it's impossible for it not to be seen by the apparent individual as some sort of kind of carrot. Oh, yeah.

[00:19:56]So what what the way it's framed then is like oh that no me that that sounds interesting. So if I lost the me u it's quite when you tease that out then it's often like what would that be like you know what would you say it would be like?

[00:20:14]Um, well, I just think that I was thinking that um um my mind's gone blank now.

[00:20:26]>> You'd have no bills to pay maybe and you'd everyone would love you.

[00:20:30]No, I was I was actually thinking that um oh what if I was in like quotequote enlightened like even though that's not a thing um I wouldn't think that I would have no bills I would still have bills to pay but I wouldn't feel so much tension all the time. That's what I feel like the tension would maybe go away.

[00:20:52]>> Fair enough. Yeah. Yeah. Fair enough. Um yeah. So like that I mean in one sense funny enough the individual is kind of like a tension or an agitation.

[00:21:03]So that's that's a you know it's not a bad imagining of what it would like be like but it's not imaginable. Yeah. And it's it's nothing you could think of. Um and it it's impossible to not think of it as some for the individual to think of it as some sort of a positive thing really. Yeah.

[00:21:26]>> And actually it's a loss. So someone who doesn't feel like an individual has lost the contracted energetic sense of being a separate me. So they've lost everything is lost. Everything everything you know everything you believe excuse me is se seen to be a story. So you've lost everything completely. But obviously then you haven't lost anything because when it's all apparently lost, it's seen that you never had anything and there's just what's appearing to happen which is unconditional love.

[00:22:00]>> So is it nobody that knows anything?

[00:22:03]>> Yeah, it's not. No, you're still trying to locate somebody to pin you're trying to pin the tail on the donkey like you know what I mean and I and I'm the donkey in this case which a lot of people probably agree with. So Um, no, it's impossible. Like, it's impossible again to not if you feel separate, you see other people and if someone talks like this, you it's impossible to not imagine that they kind of something is there that isn't here. And it's not like that at all. It's not any way you could imagine it because any way you imagine it is um a concept or an idea. And there's no difference between me and you in that sense at all. It's very simple. Life just cannots here. And maybe a difference is energetically there there is this lived kind of sense of separateness from the way you're talking. Maybe that's it. But I I can't see a real, you know, if we were to meet in person even, we're speaking on on Zoom and >> whatever, but if we were to meet in person, it would be the same thing. I I wouldn't be able to see an individual simply because there isn't one. It's just life caring.

[00:23:18]>> Yeah, I I see I see individuals, but like I also see that there's nobody.

[00:23:24]>> Yeah, >> there's just this >> Yeah, there's Yeah, there's just life peoples. Like it's not It sounds when people hear it at first sometimes it sounds shocking but it's actually very simple like life people's life. There's, you know, and everyone is unique obviously. Um, but there it's all energy treeing and computering and peoplelinging and all there is is energy, but you know, when you feel separate, it's not like it's it really does feel like you're in there looking out on the world living your life.

[00:24:01]>> Um, and it it feels like that until it doesn't, you know. It's very simple.

[00:24:10]One of the ways that um that kind of helped me to think that I'm not a person um is that 99.9% of everything um is not me doing it. So like if I think of my entire body for example, like my entire body is not me doing it.

[00:24:42]It's just doing it by itself. Like >> all the cells are repairing and healing or changing or growing or like the heart is beating but I'm not beating the heart. It's just doing it. And so like everything that's really majorly important to create me is not me doing it. So it almost makes the me disappear cuz it's just happening if you know what I mean.

[00:25:14]>> Yeah. Well, it doesn't really make the me disappear. The MI is never really there um anyway, but it can appear to be there and it's an energetic feeling that appears to arise. Um, but absolutely like I mean it's obviously a fiction or a narrative or a story.

[00:25:34]It doesn't feel like one when you you're there, but the whole thing can unravel.

[00:25:38]Unravel is a nice word. I like unravel.

[00:25:41]Um because like you being you is like this tightly wound energetic um sense of a false center of you >> with all of the ways that you think all the stories about yourself and how you think other people >> feel about you and how you think that they perceive you and the things that experiences you've had in the past. the things that have happened to you so on and it's actually just uh a narrative was it was never real. It was never there. That's why that's why you'll often hear me and other speakers say nothing actually happens because it's this thing can unravel this apparent you. But then on the unraveling it's it's very clear that it was never there.

[00:26:32]Um and it's there's just what's appearing to happen. But yeah, we do have all these nice like the narrative is that for instance like your example there are things that are under our um control and in our awareness and there are things that aren't uh there's for instance we don't pump the blood around our body uh we don't have to think about breathing but then there are other things such as thoughts that we can control our thoughts and and there then we're in the story of me, you know, and it's just accepted that's the way it is. Of course, there's a you there because nothing would happen in your life without you making decisions and so on so on. And we've heard this from when we're very very small. So, we get conditioned into it and we it just goes unquestioned really. But it can unravel very like like like you said there, if you kind of look at it, it can all start falling apart.

[00:27:36]>> It does feel like um like the thoughts, like you said, you can control your own thoughts, but the thoughts are like electrical just electrical signals inside your brain. And often they're just happening without they're almost like the same as everything else. Just thoughts are just happening and I'm not actually making them happen. It's just like they're just they're just automatically coming.

[00:28:04]>> I can't I can't stop them and they just come.

[00:28:08]>> Yeah. Thoughts appear.

[00:28:10]>> Yeah. So it doesn't feel like even I mean meditation would help to control them but um like generally in everyday life thoughts are just coming like a like a stream or a river just constant. There's not really me behind it going I'm now going to think this. It just automatically thinks.

[00:28:34]>> But there's there is no you anywhere in the whole equation. You're you're not speaking on a Zoom meeting. Your your heart what isn't beating, but the heart appears to beat and uh sounds come out and so on. You you you're not there.

[00:28:53]You've never you're not sitting on the seat or whatever.

[00:28:55]>> That's really nice to know.

[00:28:57]>> Yeah. It's can be if it resonates, it's very freeing. It's very liberating.

[00:29:01]Yeah.

[00:29:02]>> Um and also >> I just really like to get rid of it to be honest.

[00:29:06]>> Well, what what is there to get rid of?

[00:29:09]Exactly.

[00:29:11]>> You see, like the whole energetic sense that there's a you there would dearly like there to be a you that really is there so you could get rid of it.

[00:29:22]And then then you could kind of go and listen to someone who tells you about some special technique that was found in some >> um you know uh ashram up in the Himalayas or so deep in deep in the jungle in the the Amazon jungle and was hidden for thousands of years. And this is how you rid yourself of the ego or the me or blah blah blah or some other like that. And um that would keep you going nicely, you know.

[00:29:54]>> Yeah, that >> there's no there's no this is the the the cruel thing about this is there's there's this is it is that is amazing.

[00:30:03]It this is it. This is boundless unconditional love. And that's also the cruel aspect of it for the individual.

[00:30:09]Oh, there's just this and what so there's nothing I can do. Well, no, I didn't say there's nothing you can do.

[00:30:15]There's there's no you to do or not do.

[00:30:18]There's just what's appearing to happen.

[00:30:20]It's it's so incredibly simple that it's it's too simple.

[00:30:28]It's too ordinary. So it it then gets rejected in favor of more doing, you know, and it's not understanding either. It's just, you know, that you can have all these insights like you said and you know, well, that's not me and I'm obviously I'm not running the um ATP energy engine of the mitochondria in the cell because I have a very abstract idea of that and I can't be in charge of it. So, so where am I? You know, you can like these are all whatever, but really the the what we're talking about is it's it's not about knowing anything we're talking about. It's that energetic sense that there's it's just what's appearing to happen. It's just there's just only what's appearing to happen. And it can be then this dualistic uh play of opposites just can can collapse.

[00:31:41]So it's energetic. That's why it's a why I keep saying it's a resonance with what's being said. You'll never you'll never understand your way to what we're talking about.

[00:31:50]>> So is is it is it the mind that knows all of this or or what is it?

[00:31:56]>> Well, we're back we're back to the beginning again, Carla.

[00:31:59]>> Sorry. No, no, don't be sorry. I love >> I'm at the I'm always at the beginning.

[00:32:05]>> Yeah, but I know what I I don't be sorry because I'm love I'm loving the conversation and as I said in the beginning, it doesn't matter. But what I we this is what we said in the beginning is that it's not it's not knowable.

[00:32:17]So you just said, is it the mind that knows all of the like >> Yeah.

[00:32:22]>> I I don't know. I don't have anything. I don't know anything. There's just what's appearing to happen. And there is this sharing that just comes from nothing and and that's how it is. And it could be over tomorrow. It could be over next week. I have no idea. It's not special.

[00:32:38]It's just a sharing. And it is from it.

[00:32:41]It is not from knowing. I don't know anything because it was seen here when when all of this sense of separateness just wasn't it was just seen to be a story that nothing is knowable.

[00:32:54]Obviously, you know, it's not knowable. Like if you if you think if someone thinks they know about non-duality or anything about it, it's nonsense because it's just they just have a concept or an abstraction.

[00:33:09]Life is so like so there's just what's appearing to happen. It's so immediately what's appearing to happen. It's there and not there. It's it's completely unknowable. But for it to be knowable, it's there because I'm there and then there's the world and me. So I can abstract a sense of knowing.

[00:33:33]>> So right now there's nobody talking to you right now. Like there's no I'm not talking.

[00:33:39]>> So there's there's just what's appearing to happen always. That's all it is. It's not it's not it's very simple. That's the problem of what the problem with the apparent problem about what's sought by the individual is it's too ordinary and simple.

[00:33:57]And that's how it eludes that's why how it appears to hide by simply already being everything.

[00:34:04]And and there's there's simply whatever is appearing to happen. So, so speaking appears to happen or or we could sit here and then sometimes there's no speaking and then that's what's appearing to happen and you know life caras and life can life whatever it's very simple because this is whole and this is everything.

[00:34:33]So energetically the sense that I'm doing anything isn't there obviously. So I don't feel I I don't feel a sense of I'm speaking ever they're just speaking appears and um it's very simple. It's not some state or some blissful anything you know pain arises discomfort arises um whatever arises but it's just what's arise just what's appearing to arise and it's that's the same for everyone.

[00:35:01]uh and then what I notice is energetically they've somehow abstracted with a sense of separateness in which then there's a me that it's happening to and that you can when they speak you can tell that >> but it's it's always a narrative that's all it is. So uh so therefore with any it's it's the case with any clear uncompromising uh speaker that they they they just can't see anybody to speak to. They're just you know there's just life peopleing.

[00:35:41]>> I I think I asked all my questions.

[00:35:44]>> Yeah. Well maybe um >> they've been they've been sat on my desk for like >> Oh god. I'm so not No. And I was thinking if anybody comes around and sees these questions, they're going to be like, "What?"

[00:35:59]>> Yeah.

[00:36:00]>> There's something that knows that you are Kenneth is nothing.

[00:36:05]Like, what's this about?

[00:36:06]>> Yeah. I would say them.

[00:36:13]them, Carla. Anybody who uh you know, you could tell them mind their own mind their own business.

[00:36:19]There there is nobody that there is nobody there's no there is nobody there is no people who are thinking about you or think of you a certain way. It's all it's all it's all an illusion. We we all have this sense of what would this person think about me if they if they saw this or they thought this or they they saw this aspect of my and we all have we all have this aspect to us that's the kind of nittygritty kind of oh yeah I don't we won't show that publicly everybody everybody this is the human condition you know everyone everyone and then in that we have this idea that there's these saints and great people who live pure life. It's all a bunch of There's just life peopleing and nobody thinks about you ever.

[00:37:14]Nobody has ever thought about you. The thought maybe has arisen and that thought would be of an object that they would think of as you. It's not you.

[00:37:27]>> Yeah.

[00:37:28]>> Nobody Nobody's ever thought about you.

[00:37:30]No >> thoughts have arisen and that thoughts have arrive that's thoughts arise and that's it.

[00:37:37]>> Yeah.

[00:37:38]>> You you can only ever be an object in somebody's mind as an an abstraction of a thing called you in which some people maybe enjoy you think you're great and some people dislike you. In your case, Carla, I'd say everyone really likes you because you seem lovely.

[00:37:53]>> Well, I'm just a I'm just a cartoon.

[00:37:56]That's We're all cartoons to Oh, you are actually That's all you are is a cartoon. You're one of those Japanese cartoons. I'm talking to I'm talking to an AI agent probably, you know. So, I mean, it's so liberating in that sense like, you know, we have this we have this kind of narrative of, oh, don't worry about what people think of you. Don't you know but like even more liberating than the than the tongue of don't worry about what people think of you is there is nobody there's life peopleing and and of course you might come up as an abstraction but that's not there is nobody like it's it's it's it's beyond words how freeing that is and liberating.

[00:38:44]>> Yeah. And also, you know, you said um nobody thinks of you because even if they did think, it would only be it wouldn't be you. It would just be their perception of you.

[00:38:56]>> Exactly.

[00:38:57]>> Which is not you.

[00:38:58]>> Yeah. Because you never see you never meet anybody.

[00:39:03]Uh you only meet your idea of people when you're separate. When you feel separate.

[00:39:08]>> Yeah.

[00:39:09]>> Obviously, you know, think about it for a second. Like what that we we don't we we objectivize everything everything from a rock to a car to a person but we have obviously a hierarchy that the person is way above >> these still an object you still have an idea of oh and that's why we talk in the way you know turn on the TV and oh this is a bad guy bad guy good guy really good and the more polarized the whole thing is we seem to be dealing with absolute saints and and and sinners you know there's No, the the the even the middle ground starts and it's all a bunch of >> Yeah.

[00:39:49]>> Um >> you don't it's it's only when you when you don't feel separate anymore um to see someone as they really are is to not see them as an individual is to just see energy peopleing. That's as that's as good as I can put it really. I guess you never really know anybody in that sense. You have an idea of them and you might have an idea of their um character and >> yeah so like likewise um you don't know anybody but you also don't know yourself either.

[00:40:27]>> No, you have a sense of yourself. Um and it's a narrative. I would say it's a narrative but like you can also have a sense of of your charact the character which is fine you know the way you maybe kind of react in certain situations or your likes your dislikes and whatever and a lot of people are trying to kind of make peace with that and can spend their whole lives kind of struggling with that trying to thinking they'll get on top of it and and and and very in a very deep way um feeling unworthy and unlovable in a way that can't really be touched or resolved by another person. Even if you say meet a a partner you're very happy with and you love and they love you, there's something underneath it that for a lot of you know you'd hear people talk about this just something a sense that they're not quite complete and they're somehow unworthy. I would say a lot of people wouldn't be aware of it even but um I I would suggest then that that's really the sense of separateness because the sense of separateness is a sense of like there's me and there's everything like there's everything out there and there's me so what did I do to lose everything? It's kind of a way of putting it. Now, nobody would really frame it like that, but it