History Is Repeating Itself? Lessons From WWII You Can’t Ignore | Open book with Anthony Scaramucci

追加: 2026-05-11

[00:00:00]Do they implode or do good people get together and force the implosion?

[00:00:05]>> A democratic coalition when it pulls together, when it pulls its resources together for a single common goal [music] is unbeatable by any autocrat because they're always going to be better. And the reason they're always going to be better is because they're better at harnessing stuff and they've got more checks and balances on that ultimate power and [music] that direction in which way something's happening. Because someone like Churchill or Roosevelt, they were their own men. They knew what they were thinking. and they had their own mind, but they were surrounded by people who gave them advice who could say, "I'm not sure about that," or, "That's a really bad idea," or "Definitely [music] not," or, "I think you might want to consider this." And they'd listen. Ultimately, they're making decisions, but they're still listening. An autocrat doesn't listen. An autocrat surrounded by [music] paranoia and suspicion at every single turn. So, he's hearing what he wants to hear rather than reality. And that doesn't make you make good decisions. Welcome to Open Book. I am your host, Anthony Scaramucci. joining me now. Um, my favorite historian. How about that? James Holland. My favorite historian.

[00:01:00]>> Stop it.

[00:01:01]>> Uh, because, you know, I'm a big World War II buff and I've read just about everything. I have a whole column of James Holland books, but the one we're going to talk about today, best-selling author and historian. The one we're going to talk about today is Victory 45.

[00:01:16]It's the 80th anniversary of VE Day, The End of the War in Eight Surreners. What a great book. Uh, you know what, James?

[00:01:25]I will say this about you. You know, I'm a history buff, so I think I know everything. I'm a little bit smug about it, but every time I read one of your books, I learn something that I didn't know. So, I want to applaud you for that. And uh, >> well, thank you.

[00:01:37]>> And by the way, we're both part of the gold hanger family. See that? So, we can't get You're stuck with me, James.

[00:01:43]>> There's an unconditional family, as you know. So, you you have no choice to be with me. But, uh, >> it's like it's like joining in a kind of, you know, an Italian family, isn't it?

[00:01:53]all that around the kind of proverbial table.

[00:01:56]>> Yes. You got to take all kind of beautiful food.

[00:01:59]>> Yep. You got to take all the bombass and all the dysfunction, but you have to have to stay in love. Okay. So, >> do you think do you think Tony is the mother?

[00:02:07]>> Uh he Yeah, he could have. He's a maternal. He has some maternal instinct.

[00:02:11]I think Caddy would be in disagreement with me on that, but that's what makes our podcast a good podcast. But I want to talk about love for a second because where does this love >> of history and for those of you that are listening, James is sitting there in front of this amazing bookshelf that I want to take a picture of and I recognize a lot of those books that are actually on my bookshelf. But where does this love of history come from? Well, I I I think it was as a as a child um you know, my big bro is um is Tom, who's also part of the Goldhanger staple and and co-host Rest is History with Dominic, of course. And you know, he was he's two and a half years older than me, and he kind of, you know, he kind of sort of bossed the kind of the the kind of fraternal thing a bit when we were kids. And we we had loads of, you know, little ladybird books on kind of Nelson or we had a great one on the big horn, the battle of the little big horn. had a kind of sort of picture of of Kuster and his buckskins on the front, you know, kind of shooting his pistol surrounded by uh surrounded by by Native Americans and, you know, about to go down. So, it was all kind of sort of part of of of you know, growing up really. And and you know, when we went on vacation, we didn't go to, you know, exotic ski holidays or anything like that. We went to Adrian's Wall or we did the castles of the Welsh Marches or something like that. So, it would kind of, you know, it was just kind of in the blood a bit. And then I studied a lot of history at school at high school and then I went to university and I studied, you know, just like a single um um bachelor's degree in in history as well. So you know it's kind of there >> right from the word go.

[00:03:43]>> I mean I mean this you to me you are a inspiration and a role model because I tell my kids you got to do something you love because if you do something you love you're never working. Okay. And I >> I find your love of history and your insatiable curiosity infectious. And I love hanging out with you for that reason. And I've learned a lot.

[00:04:05]>> Thank you.

[00:04:06]>> I've learned a lot about World War II from this book because you took a different angle than most historians. Of course, you wrote it with your podcast co-host Al Murray, who you and I have had uh I've had the great opportunity to be on your podcast, which I'm grateful for. Uh but you take us >> Well, you were fantastic on that. It was Thanks for coming on.

[00:04:22]>> Well, listen, is it is it's great joy.

[00:04:24]We're mutual fans of Truman and Co, aren't we? And Roosevelt and >> Yeah. I want and I want to talk about >> the I mean, >> I want to talk about this because these were exceptional people.

[00:04:34]>> Uh they were less focused on their own angerandisement and more focused on what the hell was going to go on for the world.

[00:04:42]>> Yeah.

[00:04:42]>> And I also think that uh as I just say this to you, uh they got a lot right.

[00:04:50]They got a lot right, you know, and they right and they did a they did a lot of things that made our world the one you and I were born into uh in the 1950s and60s. They made our world a better world. But you talk about >> eight surreners um which is interesting because uh you know we learn about it as a one single VE day but tell us why you chose eight surreners. What was the thought there? Well, actually the whole thing was quite funny because I years ago, like literally 20 years ago, um I did a I did a little TV program. It's my first little bit of ever ever I'd done of telly and I did a little documentary about the end of the war in Europe. And and what we realized when we were kind of researching that was that actually the one day where there weren't any surreners was victory in Europe day, which is the 8th of May, 1945. you know, the surrender actually happened kind of in the early hours of the 7th of May and then it was kind of signed off by with the Russians, the Soviet Union um in the early hours of the 9th of May, but actually nothing happened on on the uh on the 8th. And I always thought that was kind of curious. And then you sort of think, well, okay, so if if the allies lay down in January 1943 at the Casablanca conference, if FDR, President Roosevelt comes up and suddenly announces to the world's press that the only unconditional surrender is going to do, then when is the first unconditional surrender? And the first unconditional surrender is in Italy. Well, actually, strictly speaking, it's it's it's Italy, but they don't really realize they've signed up to unconditional surrender because there's kind of short terms and long terms. And that's back in September 1943. But but you know to end the actual war, the first unconditional surrender is in Italy on the 2nd of May. Comes into being on the second of May. And then and then you've got the huge number of German troops surrendering to Phil Marshall Montgomery, British um commander in northern Germany um on the afternoon of the of the 4th of May coming into act um coming into being on the on the 5th of May. By the way, also you've got the surrender of of Berlin um to the so to the Red Army on the 2nd of May. Then you've got another you've got the the surrender of German forces in Bavaria and Austria to sixth army group, you know, everyone forgets them, you know, on the 5th of May. So suddenly it's quite a lot. And then you got two for for Japan because you've got actually the kind of okay, we're going to throw in the towel on the 15th of August, but then you've got the actual surrender ceremony on the on the USS Missouri and Tokyo Bay on the 2nd of September. So you we we originally thought well we'll do six and then we toted it up and realized we miscounted because we're rubbish at math and then and then realized there was eight.

[00:07:21]>> So that's why it's a surrender in eight eight in eight surreners.

[00:07:24]>> I don't I don't had the chance to be on the USS Missouri. But when I went to um Hawaii I took my wife to Hawaii said I'm sorry we got to stop at the Pearl Harbor Memorial and I had to go to the USS Missouri. And of course, I stood on the on the deck where the signing was and they've got the Have you been to this?

[00:07:43]Have you seen this?

[00:07:44]>> I haven't. It's It's absolutely on my massive to-do list, which is to go to go to um I I do in you make it to Hawaii, stop in Honolulu, and go visit this war memorial. But but what what what would always impress me about it is the ship, you know, we see it as this massive magisterial thing, but it's actually quite small. And when you think about what happened on the ship and the significance of the ship and of course you know whatever the uh picadillos were of uh General MacArthur and the vanity of him and some of the foibless of him uh the Japanese government still has lots of elements of the constitution that he put in place uh in the 1940s in 1945 and six and seven uh and he had a lot of respect for that culture which has led to great long-term legacy of success for the country in the postw World War II era. So, so it's just it's just phenomenal uh vectors that come off all of these surreners. I want to go to Carl Wolf who's the SS general uh who is obviously famous in your book for art theft. He's famous for money laundering. Uh he's got >> he's also smooth as glass by the way.

[00:09:00]Yeah, this guy is a really smooth operator.

[00:09:05]in this part of your book kind of likes a lady, you know, >> 100%.

[00:09:09]>> And this reads like a fiction thriller.

[00:09:12]So tell us about Carl Wolf and tell us about him at the end of the Second World War.

[00:09:17]>> Well, I mean, he's an absolute sob. I just want to kind of put that right down there now. You know, he's he's he's an evil Nazi bastard and, you know, he should have had it coming. But he also happens to be a a kind of um you know, credit where credit is due. He's he's an incredible manipulator. He's an incredible political operator. Uh um and he is number two, joint number two, because this is the way the Nazis do things. They they never have kind of single standouts because the only standout can be Hitler. So everyone else is on a some kind of sort of warped parallel command structure. And this is how it works all the way down. So you have Himmler who is head of the SS but under him are two equal standing subordinate SS guys Carl Wolf and Erns Cartenbrunner and they hate each other's guts as is the way with with u this kind of setup because everyone's constantly pitched against each other um and they're rivals for attention and positioning and all the rest of course they hate each other but they're also very different you know Carwolf is German um and a kind of sort of jackabout town. Calton Bruner is a is a vianese lawyer and kind of you know slightly humilous and he's kind of 6'6 or 6'5 or something and got dueling skulls and all the rest but but but Carl Wolf has slight mildly disgraced himself by being morally corrupt and he's morally corrupt in the Nazi state by divorcing his wife. I mean can you imagine the Nazi regime anything quite as awful as divorce? I mean really.

[00:10:48]So anyway, so he's been banished from Hitler's headquarters to to run the show in Italy. And and although Mussolini has been sprung for he was deposed in July 1943, then put imprisoned by his by by the Italians, he's then sprung um in September 1943. Um and put in charge of a puppet government in the north, the RSI, the Socialist Republic of Italy. Um it is Wolf running the show. Kessle Ring Marshall Kessler is running the show on the ground in terms of the military stuff. Wolf is doing everything else and he realizes pretty quickly that uh you know well into 1944 um that they're not going to win. And so suddenly all that kind of Nazi ideology [ __ ] that they've been really into, he's suddenly chucking that out with a dishwater and thinking how am I going to save my neck?

[00:11:39]So he starts being very very um slack on partisans. Um, he starts letting people strike in Milan and all the rest of it, not being too harsh and showing what a lovely, decent, fair-minded guy he is who kind of, you know, at his heart, he just loves being decent and all he wants to do is save lives and end the war.

[00:11:57]What he really wants to do, of course, is save his neck. So, he pursues a he pursues peace feelers with Allan Dulles, who I'm sure any um upstanding American will have heard of, but he at the time was was the OSS man in in Burn in Switzerland. OSS became the CI director was head of the Warren Commission, >> right? All of that. Yeah. So, he's a so he's, you know, he's he's not in he's in the middle of his career, but he hasn't reached the dizzy heights he's going to to to reach, but he's still the main man. He's the same main US guy in Switzerland. And Wol actually does, again, credit where credits do, put his neck on the line. He he does some pretty brave stuff and and stuff that's very, very high risk. Very high risk. But he also puts up various kind of sort of insurance policies such as um stealing all the uh all all Italy's art treasures and and keeping them for safekeeping. I mean you understand you know what he's going to do is is he's going to keep them from Hitler but he's also going to keep them as a bargaining chip as well and um and doing various other measures to ensure that he gives himself the best possible chance of getting out of this horrible mess that the Nazis have got themselves into at the end of the war.

[00:13:06]It's just the most ridiculous story. And you're right about Hollywood. I always kind of thought I always could imagine sort of Quentyn Tarantino making a film about this.

[00:13:14]>> Yeah.

[00:13:14]>> Well, I mean, look at the ugliness of it. You know, there's a you know, listen, I I I want to test this on. I feel like there are we al we often talk about the single man theory of history.

[00:13:25]>> Yeah.

[00:13:26]>> But but I think that there's like a great man and a really bad man theories.

[00:13:30]Let hear me out for a second. The revolution, the American Revolution, lots of enlightened philosophers frame the Constitution. It's a set of very good men trying to come up with an idyllic protocol to prevent tyranny. At the flip side is Nazi Germany. You have these homicidal maniacs that get together, actually take over a sovereign nation, and they work together to corrupt each other. You know, I always tell my kids, "Hey, you know, you're you're the weighted average of the five people you hang out with." Think of who Hitler was hanging out with, okay? Evil personified, but he's hanging out with guys like this and he's hanging out with Garing and Himmler and uh all these different characters uh that we see on the stage, you know, Gerables, etc. So, so I guess I I guess the the point I'm making though is do they implode or do we good people get together and force the implosion? Meaning I >> good people get together and force the implosion.

[00:14:33]>> That that's what it is ultimately, right? Because I because look at what's going on in Russia. Look at what's going on in other authoritarian states. You know, I Okay, this is this is my and you I'll be interested to see your take on this. This is my theory. So I I I slightly believe in big man period because I think I think without Hitler I don't think there would have been the Nazi regime. I I don't think that was inevitable.

[00:14:56]>> There might have been a communist regime in Germany. Could have been any number of different scenarios. It could have become a dictatorship effectively. They could have canceled democracy.

[00:15:05]>> But but but Hitler is absolutely the motivating icon around the Nazi movement. And I I can't see it happening without him. But with him suddenly all these other weasels come out of the out of the um out of the out of the shadows. Uh um in terms of the allies ability I okay this is my theory. I think a a a democratic coalition when it pulls together when it pulls its resources together for a single common goal is unbeatable by any autocrat because they're always going to be better. And the reason they're always going to be better is because they're better at harnessing stuff and they've got more checks and balances on that ultimate power and that direction in which way something's happening. Because you know someone like Churchill or Roosevelt, they they were their own men.

[00:15:50]They knew what they were thinking. They had their own mind but they were surrounded by people who gave them advice who could say I'm not sure about that or that's a really bad idea or definitely not or I think you might want to consider this. And they'd listen.

[00:16:01]Ultimately they're making decisions but they're still listening. An autocrat doesn't listen. an autocrat surrounded by paranoia and suspicion at every single turn. So, he's hearing what what he wants to hear rather than than the reality. And that doesn't make you make good decisions. Now, you can be strong enough to cowtowwow your enemies, but when you pull together, you're going to be stronger. I mean, this is, you know, this is, you know, CF the situation right now. If Europe pulls itself together, there's 780 million people in Europe. You know, we got some of the greatest minds. means we've got huge amounts of money. Um we've got all the resources. We've got access to the world's oceans. We've got everything you could possibly possibly want at our fingertips. All we need is a bit of charisma, a bit of leadership, a bit of pulling together, a bit of glue, a bit of shared vision and and and to snap the kind of people of Europe out of their complacency that everything's going to be fine cuz it's not. It's not if we don't do something about it. But it will be if we >> Why does it take us so long though? Why does it take us so long?

[00:17:01]>> Because it always does. because we're complacent. You know, this is that great line from Maine Arcanes, you know, who's writing about the economic consequences of the uh of the Versail treaty. He's writing this book in 1990s. He's just desparing at the kind of peace treaty that's being pulled together following the catastrophic first world war. And he goes back and he goes, just consider, you know, you're a reasonably wellto-do guy living in London. You can telephone your mates. You can get you can eat pretty much anything you want from all around the world. You can travel in a way that's more simple and quicker than it's ever been um um ever before in mankind. You know, the world just seems full of possibilities and you cannot imagine for a minute that this progress is this this steady progress is ever going to end. And then suddenly it's August 1914 and the catastrophe hits the world and you know all the rest of it.

[00:17:49]You have the first world war and you know Milan's dead and the catastrophe of the early part of the 1920s and wheelbarrows of money and all the rest of it. A and that's the point, you know, we we we have reached that point now where we're just being a bit complacent.

[00:18:03]You know, we're we're taking things for granted. We're feeling entitled. You know, we're in the West. We can do what we like. You know, we all we're worried about is sort of what's going on on on reality TV shows and, you know, what the next blockbuster set is going to be on Netflix and stuff and, you know, who's trending on Tik Tok rather than kind of looking that bigger world around us which is actually starting to corrupt in a very very bad way. you know, wake up everybody. You know, that's the bottom line, >> right?

[00:18:29]>> I I I think it I think it's so well said, you know, and it always it stumps me. You know, I remember uh you know, we had Nazi sympathizers in the United States, Nazi sympathizers in the UK, and yet people get around her. I mean, we both remember Ambassador Joe Kennedy.

[00:18:46]>> Yeah.

[00:18:46]>> What a what a what a scattywack he was.

[00:18:49]>> Yeah. I mean, I we remember. I mean, he was literally I mean, it's surprising to me given what Joe Kennedy did that it didn't cost his son, Jack Kennedy, that election.

[00:19:02]>> Yeah. Amazing. You're surprised.

[00:19:03]>> Well, and he's and he's cut from a different kind of sort of cloth, isn't it? Because I've just been I've just been relooking at his um inauguration speech in 1960. And what does he say? He says, "Don't think what America can do for me. think what you can do for America and citizens of the world, don't think what America can do for you. Think what you can do for the world.

[00:19:25]>> There you go. That's that's the mantra that everyone needs to get a grip of right now.

[00:19:30]>> Right?

[00:19:31]>> You know, we need to move out of our selfish isolationist bubble just in front of our nose and you know and see the bigger picture.

[00:19:38]>> The irony is that Churchill despised his father, but Jack Kennedy loved Winston Churchill. you know, he took a lot of those ideas from Churchill's speeches, right? I mean, about, >> you know, the world. You remember Churchill's theories about the United States of Europe and unifying Europe >> and so forth. I want to want to go to something in the book that really struck me. I mean, he has so many striking stories, but uh I want to talk about Alan Moscin. He's a private, of course, from New Jersey. gonna mispronounce this because I'm a Italian from Long Island so forgive me but he stumbles into Gers Kchen camp I guess it's called >> gunskirken gunskirken >> what what is this camp tell us about this and how important was it for you to pick some ordinary soldiers in this story because yeah I thought that was a brilliant part of the story because >> you know my uncle my uncles sir were ordinary soldiers >> and they saw atrocities that they never like to talk about Tell us about this private this young man.

[00:20:37]>> Yeah. Well, well, the whole thing came about because Al and I were discussing how we, you know, you can't do a book about the end of the war and not confront the Holocaust and the camps and all the rest and the liberation of the camps and, you know, like all these things in the Second World War the there's the kind of sort of there's the kind of the key names, aren't there? the kind of star names, you know, Decau, um, Bellson, Avitz, obviously, um, and so on, Ravensbrook, you know, these are the names that people every, you know, most people who know anything about the Second World War, know anything about the Holocaust have heard of those names.

[00:21:09]No one's heard of Gunscope. No one. And the point is this that what we wanted to show was rather than trying to kind of cover the whole thing, we wanted to to illustrate the liberation of the camps through the eyes of one victim and one liberator and we wanted them to be we wanted them to have a connection. So we didn't want the liberator to be at a different camp. We wanted them to be at the same camp. We wanted to be one of the forgotten camps. So all these main camps had like Mattousen or whatever had satellite camps and Gungken was a was a satellite camp and all of them were horrific. I mean you know particularly by April 194 May 1945 you know because Germany's run out of food run out of supplies you know and the last people to get get looked after are your slave labor of course. So we also then I started thought wouldn't it be interesting to have also have an American um who was not from you know a superstar division you know the the big ones are the third infantry division which had more days of combat than any other had audi Murphy in it most decorated US serviceman of this of World War II you know or the big red one the first infantry division that landed on our beach whatever it might be we don't we you know or that second armored division hell on wheels we don't want the kind of the celebrity divisions But I wanted a forgotten division no one's ever heard of. So we chose the 71st because they only arrive in Europe in February 1945 for goodness sake. And and my guy Alan Moskin only comes into action in March. But that doesn't belittle his experiences. Those those kind of three months of combat that he sees are absolutely awful. That's enough to keep you going for a lifetimes 10, frankly, what he saw. So we wanted a division that wasn't wellnown. And I also wanted a Jewish American soldier.

[00:22:53]So suddenly there's this guy from from from New Jersey uh um you know who's a Jew who's in an unknown you know he's an unknown bloke. He's just a one of the hundreds of thousands, one of the millions in uniform who just ends up being in this place at this particular moment. And he comes in contact with a Hungarian Jew um called Hugo Grin who by a miracle has managed to survive, you know, Achvitz and Hungarian um roundups and unspeakable privations and hardships and cruelty um and and makes it through.

[00:23:30]And so there was a kind of beautiful bit of synergy there that that when when I so so basically I had to I thought about an unknown camp. Then I found Hugo Grin.

[00:23:41]Then I thought, well, okay, well, I want to find someone from the 71st. So I started looking, researching the 71st Infantry Division because they liberated it. And then I just found Bingo. I found Alan Moskin. And you know, the fact that he was Jewish was just perfect. And sometimes, you know, when you're researching, these little little bits of jigsaw just just slot together just absolutely beautifully. It was like they were all kind of sort of made for one another. And you know, as a storyteller that you've you've you've hit gold. And I think because all those three, the camp and the division and the liberator and the liberated are all completely unknown, I think it's much more powerful as a result. Yeah. Listen, it's an amazing part of this story and u you know and I know I've told you about my uh my uncles and their you know assault on Normandy Beach. Also, one of my uncles fought two of my uncles actually fought in the Battle of the Bulge and and >> Wow.

[00:24:32]>> and they were common infantry men and uh my my cousin actually took the uh his GI suit and had it dry cleananed recently.

[00:24:45]He has it hung up in his uh in his store.

[00:24:48]>> How amazing.

[00:24:49]>> And u and I just think about these men.

[00:24:51]I mean, they were uh you know, running their lives, ordinary people.

[00:24:55]>> They got thrust.

[00:24:57]>> Yeah. And and also >> to see the horror, you know. I mean, and by the way, you know, we don't talk about it, James, but Joseph Stalin had high levels of horror going on as well.

[00:25:10]But we referred to him because he was one of our allies, frankly, as Uncle Joe. But I mean, he killed millions of people. He was uh treacherous and uh >> you know, in many ways was Hitler like, but we don't see him in the same way.

[00:25:26]>> Yeah. I mean, I'm I most certainly do. I I've just been sanctioned by the Russians this last week.

[00:25:31]>> Oh, is that right?

[00:25:32]>> Yeah. For speaking out against them. I mean, I you know, not only were they were they cruel and corrupt, um you know, they were just un unspeakably proflegate with people's lives. I mean, >> you know, it's interesting, but you know, you you think about the kind of final battle of Berlin. Um, it's uh you starts on the 16th of April, finishes on the 2nd of May with the defeat of surrender of Berlin. In that time, the Red Army, which is totally overwhelming compared to the pretty feeble German defenses, you know, which is, yes, there's a handful of old hands and and old Verma veterans and and waffs tides, but the vast majority kind of teenage boys and old men. [snorts] The Red Army loses 800,000 casualties in that time. a little over two weeks. I mean, what the heck? What are you doing? How how can you be that bad that your your in your general ship I'm not complaining about the individual soldiers in Ukraine though exact thing that they did then to just throw the people out there cannon fodder obliterate the people.

[00:26:30]>> Yeah. The cruelty is unspeakable. It's unspeakable.

[00:26:32]>> It's it's horrific. But I just find I just find Listen, you're I'm always learning something in your writing. Um, unfortunately I only we you know you this is a goal hanger podcast now by the way. I don't know if you know that but open books going we have it limited to 30 minutes. So I've gota unfortunately you're >> I got to push ourselves to the end here.

[00:26:54]But I want to I want to I want to bring up five words that Holly and I my producer put together from the book. And what we'd like you to do James I'm going to say the word and I want you to come up with a your first impression and give me a few sentences. Okay. You ready?

[00:27:07]>> Go.

[00:27:07]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:27:08]>> I say the word Germany, you say what?

[00:27:12]>> What in terms of 1945?

[00:27:13]>> Yes. 1945.

[00:27:15]>> I say absolute delusion. I mean, the delusion of the high command at the end is a tragedy. You know, I I found it just breathtaking how stupid, deluded, uh um cruel that the the the leadership that took over once Hitler shot himself was. I mean, have these guys not learned anything over the previous six years? I mean, Dunits, Kitle, all these guys, they're just >> I mean, what are they doing going till the 8th of May? I mean, 7th of May. I mean, it's just it's it's crazy. But also the people, sir, you know, I mean, if you if you look Hitler's approval rating in April of 1945, still in the mid 40s, you know, I mean, it's just sort of crazy, right? I mean, just >> it's incredible. Well, that's brainwashing for you. I mean, exactly.

[00:28:02]You know the the world is littered with instances of large numbers of people falling for complete [ __ ] >> I'm believing stuff.

[00:28:11]>> I'm well aware of that sir and the contemporary aspects of that as well.

[00:28:14]Okay.

[00:28:15]>> And this is this is why the study of history is so important because it can teach us stuff about today.

[00:28:19]>> Exactly. Exact. Exactly. Let's go to Japan.

[00:28:22]>> Right.

[00:28:23]>> I say the word Japan, you say what?

[00:28:26]>> [ __ ] I say yet more delusion. I I I say delusion and tragedy. I'm I know I'm cheating by having two words. Again, you know, these guys at the top, they've just got themselves into a God almighty mess that they're not willing to confront, >> you know, they're not willing to have a a a realistic exit clause. It's kind of all or nothing, you know, and this this kind of war nonsense that somehow suicide is better than than defeat or, you know, this sort of warp notion of honor is is just bonkers. No, you know, even after the the b the first atomic bomb on Hiroshima, you know, they're still faffing around kind of refusing to throw in the towel and not even believing it's an atomic bomb. I mean, it's just crazy. And the amazing thing about it at the very end, of course, is it's the only unconditional surrender that has a condition which is that the emperor stays and I think he stays till 1989 or something. I mean, yeah. No, he was George Herbert Walker Bush in 1989.

[00:29:26]But MacArthur saw that though he understood the cultural tenant of that >> Y >> and the need for that and again all of MacArthur's complexity, all of his vanity.

[00:29:38]>> Uh and you know if you go to Japan today, they don't even talk about MacArthur. He's been deleted from their history books >> but he is a seminal figure in the foundation.

[00:29:46]>> He's a great man >> of a prosperous Japan. Let's go to Italy.

[00:29:52]Yep.

[00:29:55]>> I say Italy. You say >> I say Oh, well Italy I I I say um uh I get I I but that is where tragedy really really needs to play its part. I mean I've done so much work on the Italian campaign. I've spent so much time with Italian veterans. Italy at the end of the war is is that there is a glimmer of hope for Italy, I think. But but but the tragedy that befalls Italy. I I wrote a book about the last year of Italy's war some years ago and I called it Italy's sorrow. And um it's this this place of you know the birthplace of the Renaissance. It's this place of high culture this place of incredible history of incredible landscape beauty of of incredible urban construction. You know Ponttovecio in Florence or you know St. Peters in Rome or you know the cathedral the Duomo in Milan I mean you know this is stuff that you know and and opera and pagini and and you know and and and let's face it Ferrari too you know it's just this this amazing country and yet what befell it in the second world war was this this sort of terrible terrible tragedy and it makes my heart bleed every time I think about it because I'm a massive Italopile I love Italy listen I mean it's the >> it's my ancestry you know my grandparents were brokenhearted >> about where Italy landed in that war and u obviously you and I know uh the foibless there and again deranged leadership >> leads to horrific outcomes >> but again but look look what happens by to Italy by the second half the 1950s into the 1960s it's just had this it's had its second renaissance and it's kind of emerged as this really pretty well functioning modern state where it heritage Yeah. Yeah. Right. You know, it's it and and today, you know, I know it has its shortcomings, but it but it's still just a fabulous fabulous place to be.

[00:31:54]>> And you know, you know, which city has the lowest suicide rate in any in the whole of Europe >> is Naples, which also coincidentally is the is the heaviest populated.

[00:32:04]>> I was going to say Naples, you know, cuz my family's from there and we're Let me tell you something. We're all crazy, >> but we do love life. You know what I mean? There's a there's a sense of love of life and a respect.

[00:32:16]>> Exactly. So, all right. Two last words.

[00:32:18]Uh uh surrender. I say the word surrender. James Holland, what do you say?

[00:32:24]>> Victory for the allies. And what about victory?

[00:32:28]>> Well, actually, I mean, I'm I'm actually doing a book right a small kind of uh a small palemic about this right now about that that postworld view. There was a there was two views. There was the uh there was the cruel and corrupt one which was behind the iron curtain or there was the one that had first been kind of put forward by by Wilson and his utopian dream in 1918 um and which was picked up the baton which was picked up and and evolved by Roosevelt and delivered by Truman and it's the one that's lasted 80 years pretty much and brought peace and prosperity to the developed world and the developed democracies and the western world and you and I have grown up in that world and and are better people and happier people as a result of >> being an amazingly blessed beneficiary of that world which is why you know when I look back >> that's what victory means to me >> I look back on that era and I look back on the bravery of my grandparents who arrived here in America and I my life and I say this very humbly James my life could have never happened without the political leadership or even the courageous leadership of my immigrant grandparents who literally came here with nothing but had this wildly unconditional love affair with the country. You know, my grandmother was so proud that her two sons went to war for America. You know, you just have to think about the time, you know, she prayed for them and she prayed for their safety and thankfully uh one came back wounded but okay and obviously one survived the war but unwounded but both psychologically traumatized. But the point being it was just this unconditional love affair with the country and I grew up with that you know I grew up with that spirit and also the intellectual curiosity to understand what happened you know which is why I so enjoy my relationship with you and love your books. So title of this book is uh victory 45 the end of the war in eight surreners. It's written by James Holland and his podcast co-host uh uh we have ways to make you talk podcast co-host Al Murray. But thank you so much for joining us on Open Book today. And uh James, you can't get rid of me, James. So >> thank you actually. Listen to >> be in your life, brother. You know, it's it's been such a pleasure. Thank you for having me on. I really appreciate >> So Maggie, welcome. I look forward to this. Obviously, I read your book. I listened to your book on audio tape.

[00:34:55]Read the book. Uh why con man? Why did you pick confidence man for the title?

[00:35:02]>> Um there were a bunch of titles that I was thinking about. One that I had had for a while as a working title was damage because Trump is damaged and he has brought damage to others. Um ultimately confidence man was uh a a suggestion uh that came up from folks I was working with. Um my my uh my sounding boards uh uh liked it. I frankly liked it because I think that it, you know, it a it has a double meaning and obviously confidence is something that Trump tries to project but um you know the literal meaning of a con man is someone who takes something from other people and I think that Trump has a very long history of doing that.

[00:35:41]>> Well, I mean there's a couple things I took away from the book. First of all, I wish you had written the book before the campaign started in 2016, but of course you weren't able to do that. But if you had done that, it was a very big warning. And it's just interesting that the book's out there now and there's still a very large group of people that support President Trump and will vote for him in the Republican primary. Uh but the book is a surgeon general's warning label on his personality.

[00:36:07]>> Um you go back to Fred Trump and the older brotherh Fred Trump Jr.

[00:36:13]>> Uh I want you to tell us a little bit about those relationships and also there's a fascinating story in your book which I highlighted. It was about uh there was only one picture in the Oval Office behind the resolute desk that was him a picture of his dad. People said, "Hey man, you got to put other pictures up there." Explain the whole dynamic there.

[00:36:34]>> So Fred Trump, there is no Donald Trump without Fred Trump literally and and also you know scenically. Um and and uh you know Fred Trump is is constantly on Donald Trump's shoulder in one form or another.

[00:36:48]He was uh a he was an effective businessman. He was a much more effective businessman than his son who is a self-promoter. Um and and an effective brander but not not a businessman uh the same way. But Fred Trump cut corners and you know according to everyone who who I know who spoke to him. you know, he he did not undermine his son in public, but definitely did in private and was constantly pushing his son, you know, in terms of killers and losers and, you know, you've got to be a winner. And Ivana Trump had a line in her autobiography in which she described Fred Trump as a brutal father. And I think that's probably as as good a description as you can get of him. And I think that left its mark on Donald Trump. And I think, you know, there was a striking line too to your point about him only having that picture of Fred that he gave to my colleague Jason Horowitz in an interview about his dad in the 2016 campaign when Jason asked what Trump's father would have thought of him running. And Trump said he absolutely I'm paraphrasing, but it was, "He absolutely would have allowed me to run," which was a really striking comment from a 70-year-old man. So, I think it tells you a lot about how Trump sees himself and how he still sees himself as, you know, secondary to his dad.

[00:38:02]You know, I mean, listen, I we both have had personal experiences with Donald Trump. My experience with him, which is not going to shock you, and you and I have talked about this, is remarkable insecurity though. Remarkable. Like somebody that >> you've talked about that a lot. Yeah.

[00:38:18]>> You know, somebody that rises to the presidency, okay, just the the bullying and the need to try to tell people that they're smarter than the other person. I mean, insecure people do that. Like, I'm smarter than you. let me try to prove it to you. If I can't prove it to you, let me try to intimidate or bully you.

[00:38:35]>> Is the insecurity coming from that relationship with Fred Trump? Is that is that ultimately what happened? He just brutalize the kid to the point where the kid just felt unsteady and unsure of himself.

[00:38:45]>> I think that Trump comes to the world with his own, you know, pathology. So, I think I don't I don't want to strictly attribute it to Fred Trump, but I absolutely think that Fred Trump uh undermined him, set up a competition between him and Freddy, uh his older brother, who you mentioned before, set up a paradigm where everything was about competing factions against one another, which you know, you experienced firsthand, and we've talked about that too. Um that's how he treats the entire world as if it is, you know, and as I write, that's a that's a way of of behaving that might work in a business sometimes. It certainly is not effective in a family. And so I think that he this constant, you know, feeling that he he is not getting his due and that he needs to prove that he is worthy uh traces uh I don't think exclusively but pretty heavily to his father.

[00:39:37]>> So I I finish your book and I say to myself, okay, got to write these things down and I'm going to ask Maggie about them in the future. Okay, so I finished the book.

[00:39:47]Here are the things that I here are the things that I wrote down. Um, it was a perfect storm. And what do I mean by that? The country was looking for new leadership. The country felt that the establishment political parties, at least a good 25% of the country, felt that the establishment political parties were not working for them.

[00:40:07]>> Uh, and so you had this perfect storm where in comes this avatar for white, middle, and lower class anger. he's going to be their avatar, the stick a finger in the eye of all forms of the establishment.

[00:40:19]>> And then you have the failure of the Clinton campaign, the Secretary Hillary Clinton campaign.

[00:40:25]>> Um, am I right about that? Is it a perfect storm? Is he a manifestation of what's going on in America? Did he help contribute to it like the New York Times reported this past weekend >> in terms of what what what did I get wrong when I closed your book? I was like, "Okay, perfect storm. He comes into it at the perfect time." wins the presidency by a nose uh and then he reeks this type of uh destruction and manifestation of his own self-hatred on the rest of us.

[00:40:53]>> I think one asterisk that I would put on there is yes, I think that the the Clinton campaign um made some some strategic errors and and and bad assumptions, but I also think that you can't underestimate the degree to which sexism is a real thing and I think cut against her. Uh I think that pe a lot of people, you know, she's a she's a polarizing figure. she has been for 30 years. Um I think that it was underestimated the degree to which people were going to view her negatively and through a negative lens uh to some extent regardless of what she did. A certain sizable chunk of the population.

[00:41:26]I don't think she helped herself in certain areas. But um as for the rest, I think you're right. What I tried showing is that Trump is who he always has been.

[00:41:36]He is this very shallow, insecure um you know celebrity status seeker who you know in a country that is increasingly celebritydriven um found his moment in the post tea party era. He harnessed that anger when trust in institutions after a series of national traumas had really left a mark on a lot of voters. He told people he was going to fight and he was branded as this successful businessman, Anthony, that he just simply was not. You're you know, you're from New York. You >> you you know, >> yeah, >> that the fiber burough view of Donald Trump is pretty different than what the rest of the country believed about him beginning from the 80s.

[00:42:19]>> Okay. But New Yorkers like me made a decision to support him. Okay? And I can give you the cognitive [snorts] dissonance, but I'm not going to. I supported him very >> plaintively because he was the Republican nominee. I had worked in the Republican party for 20 years >> and I was like, "Okay, I'm gonna be loyal. I'm gonna support him."

[00:42:38]>> Um, >> why do you think so many people did that? You know, I talked to Mark Esper about it. You know, I saw Mark Esper at the uh >> uh Army Navy game as I walked through the door. Bill Bar was there with Mark.

[00:42:50]>> This is last year. This is last year.

[00:42:52]This past one 2020 2022. Okay, I'm coming through the door of my wife, Deerra. Mark sees me, Bill sees me, and they said, "Oh, I didn't realize that we're here for the Trump fired uh person support network," you know, and I started laughing. I said, "Well, I got fired way before before you guys did."

[00:43:11]But >> it's true. It was It was not yet fashionable when you got fired. That's true.

[00:43:14]>> No, I It was a pretty sensationalist thing. Then it became commonplace. But but why did we support him in your mind?

[00:43:21]like why why did somebody like m Mike Mike Mike Pompeo, Mark Esper, myself, Bill Bar.

[00:43:27]>> Well, I'll answer I'll answer that, but I would love to hear >> Kelly, General Kelly, you know, >> I'm more interested in your answer, but I think that I don't think that everybody >> I think my answer I think my answer is distorted because you know, you know, you know that there's a very famous line that people remember things the way they want to >> and with the way they need to as opposed to the way they really happen. So, uh, I think my answer is perhaps less objective than yours. You know, my my my my answer, my simple answer is I supported him because I was loyal to the party. When he went rogue, I I decided to ignore a lot of it under the theory that his policies were better than the other person's policies. And so, let's ignore that. But ultimately have to own that because the license for hatred, the acrimony, the racial tension that he caused. Uh as I've said to Esper and Pompeo, Bill Barr, others were all accompllices to that. You know, we we we and we could say it by we did it by accident or we did it proactively, but we you know, and I've offered my apology to people for doing that. It is what it is. But ultimately, I think it was a power trip. Ultimately, if we're being honest with ourselves, it's ego that uh helped influence our decision-m. So, um and I don't care who who you are. You have the opportunity to work in the White House. You know, I was a blueco collar kid, built some successful businesses. I can now work for the American president. I I uh I was overly tempted by that. I think that's ultimately the most honest answer I can give. But I'm more asking generically.

[00:45:00]You've interviewed a lot of these people.

[00:45:02]>> Uh why why did they go work for them? I think that for the group that you just uh put forward and I think the more extended group of people who work for Donald Trump who who uh either were fired or don't feel good about it or took issues with him. Um look, I think that for a lot of people it's the same reason that you cited at the outset.

[00:45:21]It's that he's, you know, they tended to skew Republican and he's a Republican.

[00:45:25]He wasn't running he was the Republican nominee. He was the Republican president. So I think that's a piece of it. Um, I think in the case of General Kelly, I think it's slightly different.

[00:45:33]Um, I think military figures are slightly different uh, in terms of how they view service when they get asked by a commander-in-chief to do something. I think Bill Bar has a very expansive view of presidential authority and and you know, we saw that play out in in various various ways and I think that was part of what appealed to him >> about coming back. Um, you know, Pompeo, I think, is uh one of the most ambitious politicians I've ever seen in my life.

[00:46:02]And I think he thought this was helpful to him.

[00:46:05]>> Um, and I think that's true for a lot of people who work for Trump. They thought that it wasn't just, you know, it's a chance to work for a president, which is what you were looking at it. So, yes, that's a personal >> point, but I think a lot of folks thought they were going to get something out of it. And what they got out of it was January 6th.

[00:46:21]>> Yeah, we're going to get there. That's happens to be my birthday, by the way, which is there's some iron.

[00:46:25]>> Wow.

[00:46:26]>> Yeah. A little bit of trivia for you. I share the same birthday as Eric Trump.

[00:46:29]So on his 37th birthday, his father was trying to overthrow the government.

[00:46:34]>> And on my 57th birthday, I was like, "Oh my god, this guy is really as stupid as I thought he was." But here we are.

[00:46:41]>> Um, three things you say in the book, which I like. I mean, I like so many things in the book, but these are things about his moods and his behavior. I'm going to read them back to you. Okay.

[00:46:51]Uh, he had a couple of moves. he would shift blame, the quick lie, the counterattack, the misdirection, the performative anger, sort of this angry outburst to push people back. Um, he understood the power of that seat about as well as anybody. You know, when when you're sitting in the Oval Office with him, I don't care who you are, he's the president, you're not. It can be intimidating to people.

[00:47:17]>> Um, >> tell us about that. tell us about how you dealt with it as a journalist and tell us about how you know I mean he's called you every different name in the book yet he still calls you like you're his psychotherapist so tell us about that whole thing >> well so I one thing I haven't talked to him since September 2021 and that was uh my third interview for the book um in February of last year I reported that he was flushing documents down toilets and that was yeah he issued a statement calling me a maggot and that was the last time I talked to him um and he has you know sort of sent me cryptic messages uh or that are alleged to be from him through various people. Uh but but that's uh that's it. Uh you know, he's um uh he's a he he is an intimidating figure to a lot of people. And to your point about how he would use the office, the office was almost a setpiece to that. One of the things I talk about in the prologue is just his bullying impulse. I talk about it in the epilog at the end of the book, too. Um so it was perfect for him. It was a It was a perfect match. You know, I remember an interview that my colleague Glenn Thrush and I did with him in I think it was April of 2017 and we walked in and there were something like 12 aids in the room and he was flanked on one side by Gary Conn and and you know Reed Cordish and this one and that one and then Jared Kushner and then and all these people.

[00:48:40]The vice president walked in at one point. Rance Priebus walked in at one point and and you got the sense that it was rolling heavy and it was meant to it was it was it was stage directing. So, you know, I think I think anyone who has, you know, been in his presence has experienced that. I also think that anyone who's been in his presence has experienced, as you have, the salesman side of him where he's trying to charm or woo you. Um, I have certainly experienced multiple times asking him a question on something and having him just lie about it and try to get out of it that way. Um, he is I think that most reporters certainly in Washington, which is not exactly a place known for its a deep brand of honesty, but I don't think any Washington-based reporter had covered somebody who lied about things both big and small the way that Trump does. And I think it was very challenging for the press corps to to try to pin him down. um on any manner of things.

[00:49:36]>> I want to move quickly through this interview and go right to January 6. Was January 6 surprising to you?

[00:49:45]>> No, it was not. Um it was shocking um but not surprising.

[00:49:52]>> Not surprising, right? You know, so someone like a Michael Cohen said it was going to happen. People asked me, I said, "Well, look, he's not going to ever concede." He said in 2016 that if he lost, he would declare fraud.

[00:50:03]>> Of course, he won. So therefore, he didn't get >> That's right. And and and the Iowa caucuses were fake according to him in 2016 because he lost them. Yeah.

[00:50:10]>> Yeah.

[00:50:11]>> Right. Of And of course, the uh him on tape in the bus, uh grabbing people by the blank. He then went on to say that that wasn't him.

[00:50:20]>> Yeah. He said they were investigator that they were investigating whether that was really him. I mean, look, I I was not um on December. It's it's really amazing to me the degree to which um uh people were around him were a and you see this in the January 6 House committee's work and and all of our reporting. People were aware of exactly what was going on in the White House and people were hoping he would averting their gazes, hoping he would let it go, hoping it would stop. So, I I broke the story about that crazy Oval Office meeting on December 18th, 2020 that you've seen a lot of video about in those House hearings.

[00:51:02]>> And I broke it on December 19th, and I got a call from uh a a Senate Republican staffer who said to me, "Are we going to have a problem?" Actually, I got a text. Are we going to have a problem with a peaceful transfer of power? And I said, "Yes, you are. Like, that's should be very visible here." And the person explained to me that Kushner and Meadows were telling GOP leadership that, you know, everything was going to be fine. Trump was going to concede. It was going to be okay or he was, you know, everything was going to be okay. It was so not [laughter] to be okay. And so, um, it was not surprising to me. And it was not surprising to Also, another story that that I helped break and that was cited in the report was Annie Carney and I reported on January 5th that Pence had told Trump he wasn't going to do what Trump wanted in terms of dismissing the results in the electoral college uh certification and Trump h put out a statement saying we were wrong. Pence and I see this the same way. Trump obviously knew he was saying something that was not true. Um, so no, I was not surprised because Trump was fighting this up until the very last minute. Um, >> and and by the way, Anthony, so much of all of our reporting from real time held up in in what we saw from the committee, but that's a side note, >> right? Well, no, listen, I mean, one of the reasons why I got on the wrong side of him was u my feelings about the press, you know, and by the way, I think I have license. I've been I've been lit up by the press. I've been grinded by late night comedy. I actually don't care. I think it's part of the process if you're going to go into politics. And so, you know, I wrote an op-ed saying that the press is not the enemy of the people. I was in the Hill in April of 2019. He went ballistic on me um and told me I was no longer on his team, which that was fine. Um, but the question I have for you is why is he still all your reporting the most recent report today where you know you're writing in the New York Times today that he knows that the election wasn't rigged and he knows that he lost the election.

[00:53:12]We all know that he knows that and yet he perpetuates this lie. Why are people still cowttowttowing and supporting him?

[00:53:21]Why is there no backbone leadership? Why didn't McCarthy and McConnell and others say, "Hey, you know what? This is absolutely wrong. And why is it really just his political base and his power? Is that the reason? I mean, are there no principles and there's no courage at all to stand up for this >> wrongheaded and illegal behavior?"

[00:53:46]Um, do you watch Curb Your Enthusiasm?

[00:53:48]Are you a Larry David person?

[00:53:49]>> I I do. Yes, I How could you not? I mean, remember, I'm a I'm a New Yorker.

[00:53:55]Jews and Italians see the world very similarly. So, yeah, there's there's an there's an episode where he uh has a cast member from the show Survivor and a Holocaust survivor at at a dinner. I think it might have been a sader. and they're they're yelling at each other and fighting and somebody knocks over um a glass of wine and red wine and it gets all over the tablecloth and Larry David's mother-in-law says somebody get a sponge and she just sits there and says somebody get a sponge and he says why don't you get a sponge and to me that is how so many people have approached Donald Trump is someone else will be the person who deals with him I don't have to but someone will [clears throat] and so in the case of McCarthy yes it's about the base it's about McCarthy's own ambitions we talked about ambition before in terms of you know, various officials. You talked about it for yourself. Um McCarthy has wanted to be House Speaker for as long as I can remember. And so he and he and he almost had it once before and lost it because of an uprising from the right.

[00:54:52]And you know, I think that >> also his own behavior, you know, his own behavior caught him. He's also, you know, you know, he got caught on Hannity, you know, interviewed explaining the diabolical nature of what they did to Hillary Clinton and things like that. I mean, you know, look, Kevin was a friend of I consider Kevin a friend. He's spoken at the Salt Conference. You could see me on his donor list. I think that uh people like him and Stefonic, they've totally morphed themselves. They've just figured themselves uh for some reason. You know, I guess it's you you really learn, not to be overly cynical, but you really learn what people are about in politics when they when they do these things. But let's talk about you for a second. Okay.

[00:55:31]Have you ever had a relationship with anybody that you've covered like the relationship that you have with Donald Trump? Okay. You know, unless there's antipathy in the relationship, but there's a bizarre attraction of Donald Trump to you almost like, you know, the New York Times or whatever it might be to get their support or to put a charm offensive on you or the New York Times.

[00:55:54]You know, he's calling you at all hours of the night. Ever had a relationship like that? I so I reject the term relationship because it suggests some kind of give and take. He's a figure who I cover. Um I have never experienced a figure I cover who is so uniquely obsessed with the press. And >> I like that. By the way, I'm going to I'm going to interject for a second. I do like that because I shouldn't have said relationship.

[00:56:16]>> I should have said interaction because people that tell me they're friends with Donald Trump, I'm like you're not friends with Donald Trump. Okay. Right.

[00:56:22]>> Donald Trump doesn't really he doesn't really he doesn't really have friends.

[00:56:24]And so number one and number two.

[00:56:26]>> So I Okay, let me rephrase it then. So your interaction have you ever had interactions with him like this?

[00:56:31]>> No, because I've never I mean look >> no he is uniquely obsessed with the New York Times and a lot of and that's what it's about with me just to be clear. You know he is obsessed with the paper to a degree that I have never seen in any official. You know, if anybody wants to understand how he feels about the New York Times, go back and listen to an episode of the New York Times podcast, The Daily, from February 2019, where he's having this back and forth with our publisher, AG Sberger.

[00:56:58]And AG is literally talking about really important issues like, "Hey, your language is being used by desperates around the globe to crack down on press freedoms." And Trump keeps saying, "I think I'm entitled to a good story from my paper." And that really tells you all you need to know about how he sees things. um versus, you know, how the free press sees things. And he just doesn't understand what the free press does. He has no clue. I asked him during that same meeting what what he thinks our role is. And I think he said to cover things accurately and fairly, which is, you know, what we what that's our objective, but that's not why we exist. And so, um, so no, I I've never experienced anything like this. And also, you know, look, he's not the first person to get upset about my coverage, Anthony. I've, you know, Rudy Giuliani used to yell at us in the in the blue room at city hall all the time when I was covering him as mayor. Um, and he was part of I mean, you can't be in the NFL. I mean, this terrible tragedy that happened in the NFL, but you're in the NFL and you get a concussion. Okay, you're in the NFL. I mean, you know, you you're in politics, you're going to get concussed by the journalists. Okay, it's just the way it happens. Um, but do you think that uh you're not a shrink? But I got to ask you this question because [clears throat] I think >> I am not. That is true.

[00:58:11]>> But I but I do think he thinks you are.

[00:58:13]But do you think in his quiet moments?

[00:58:19]>> When I see Donald Trump and I think of him in his quiet moments, I see self-loathing. Do I have that right?

[00:58:26]>> So a I think he treats all of us like we're his psychiatrists as I write. So I just want to make that very clear. I don't think that he has one. I think he uses all of us for therapy. And I'm not sure how many quiet moments he has. I will say I spoke to a lot of people who knew him in the 1990s and the 2000s who said that they believe that he is um there's not a whole lot of love for self there that there's a lot of um a lot of internal self-denigration. Now whether they're just grafting sort of normal behavior for somebody who's behaved so self-destructively onto him uh it's hard to tell. Um you know I I don't I don't think he's given to enormous self-reflection.

[00:59:05]So, I have two last questions for you.

[00:59:07]Okay. You ready? I'm >> ready.

[00:59:09]>> You wrote at the end of your book that when you interviewed him after the election loss, he seemed shrunken.

[00:59:17]>> Elaborate on that.

[00:59:19]>> I I think we've seen a steady a steady shrinkage of him, right? I mean, I think when I first went to see him was March of 2021. He just seems small and and some of that is just not being president anymore, you know? I mean, I I remember the first time that I saw Bill Clinton after the presidency and he seemed smaller. Um, you know, the only the only person post the two post presidents who seemed the happiest in to in my viewing in in modern history were Obama and Bush W. They both seemed really happy to leave DC. Um, I think that Bill Clinton did not like leaving the stage. I think Donald Trump certainly did not. But he seemed he just seemed diminished. He didn't seem to know what to do with, you know, uh, he's not pressing the red button for the Diet Coke anymore. Um, you know, he can't command an army. He can't go, you know, fire up Marine One.

[01:00:12]It it just he just seemed small and and I think that we have seen him seeming progressively smaller over time. It doesn't mean he won't still potentially be the nominee for president. He he may, you know, I mean, somebody has to beat him. Uh but assuming that he stays in the race, um you know, it's there there are only a few people I can see doing that. But but yet he does not seem dominant the way he once did.

[01:00:40]>> Okay. La last question.

[01:00:46]Who covers him well?

[01:00:49]>> That's a good question.

[01:00:49]>> Let's say Maggie Abraming covers them the best, but who covers them well besides you?

[01:00:54]>> Well, thanks. But, uh, I think Jonathan Swan and Josh Dossi, uh, and Mike Bender are all really, really, really strong reporters on the Trump beat. Um, I think Jonathan Swan's off the rails series was one of the best >> pieces of journalism about the about the final days of Trump.

[01:01:10]>> Yeah.

[01:01:10]>> Um, >> very good. No, that's good. When does the paperback come out, Matt?

[01:01:15]>> Uh, it's a good question. Uh, I think a couple months. It'll be easier. It'll be less heavy to carry around. So, you know, look at it that way. All right.

[01:01:22]Well, listen, it was an awesome book.

[01:01:23][laughter] Appreciate your time. Confidence Man, the Making of Donald Trump and the Breaking of America.

[01:01:30]>> Uh people will be studying your book, Maggie. Be 50 years from now, it'll be in a political science uh >> curriculum somewhere uh for sure. Uh, and so congratulations on the book and uh, >> uh, I look forward to many more years of your successful reporting, but hopefully it won't be about a future President Trump, which is, you know, not out of the question. We both know that.

[01:01:54]>> No, people think people who think that it's out of the question are >> kidding themselves. They're not they're not reading the situation properly, but I'm not saying it's going to happen. I mean, I'll work hard to make sure that it doesn't as will many other people, but it could happen. Thank you so much and it's a pleasure to have you