Batman Begins Really Started Something

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[00:00:00]The thing that this trilogy is defined by is sort of philosophy and morality, right?

[00:00:07]And it's what I think >> we're going deep. We're going deep.

[00:00:09]>> Well, I guess it's just like something that stood out to people about these films that comic books were always dealing with serious issues like this.

[00:00:15]They were just doing it in a form that was seen as juvenile and kind of crude and and you know, had had like a a vapidity to it compared with like high art. And so what a lot of comic book nerds of which I was not one, but a lot of comic book nerds knew was that there was this really in-depth and kind of sophisticated way of looking at different perspectives. Watchmen is the classic example where that's actually the comic book where people like every one of these, you know, there's a consequentialist here and there's a utilitarian here and there's a deonttological sort of perspective here and all this.

[00:00:46]>> There's one guy who's drunk a lot.

[00:00:47]>> Yeah.

[00:01:01]Greetings pals.

[00:01:03]>> Greetings pals.

[00:01:04]>> Hey, welcome to the podcast.

[00:01:05]>> What was that? Key of E.

[00:01:07]>> Key of E flat. My name is Frank and this is the podcast. So on the pal, love it or hate it, we debate it. It means >> My name is Tom. I guess I go [ __ ] myself.

[00:01:16]>> You stampeded through that.

[00:01:18]>> Get in when you get a chance. It's a little musical number at the start that we didn't plan and then you just went my name is Frank and that's all the context you need just you'd come in later and do your own uh segment and you were right.

[00:01:32]Um no that's all I got.

[00:01:34]>> Anyways the podcast on the power today we're debating Batman Begins.

[00:01:38]>> Mhm.

[00:01:38]>> What year did it come out?

[00:01:39]>> 2005.

[00:01:41]>> Correct. 2005 written directed by Christopher Nolan based on the Batman uh comics. You know all of them. Did he write this with Jonathan? Does he get a writer's credit or is it just >> your cat Jonathan?

[00:01:52]>> My cat Jonathan. Thank you for the audience.

[00:01:55]>> Real deep cut. Here's why. I don't think we've ever said that on Mike before. So that's not even like >> real heads will get it.

[00:02:04]>> The identity of my cat out there. I'm really sorry. I'm really sorry to do that to Jonathan and you. It's now you have a bunch of people like just enraged that there's a cat called Jonathan is the main reaction that most people like 10% of people go that's funny and the other 90% are like what is wrong with you naming a cat Jonathan he came with a name >> they know they if they've listened to any other episode they know what's wrong with you and no Jonathan Nolan did not write this film Bob David Bob >> did you check Jonathan the cat though just to just to be clear >> he's not listed but >> I think he was I think he did Dark Knight Rises because that's where all the Catwoman stuff came in I think Jonathan was really instrumental in that.

[00:02:43]>> So David Escoyer was also one of the other credited writers and of course Bob Kane because he invented Batman.

[00:02:48]>> Bob Kane Bob down chachi.

[00:02:55]Okay. Um and on this podcast we actually rate films out of 11. It's our point of difference is what makes us beautiful.

[00:03:01]Um as Harry Styles and his friends said back in the day. Point of style, a point of difference. What makes us what makes you beautiful?

[00:03:10]>> That's what makes you beautiful.

[00:03:12]>> Yeah.

[00:03:12]>> Tune. Absolute tune.

[00:03:14]>> That's not bad.

[00:03:15]>> Bit of a One Direction fan, actually, now that I think about it.

[00:03:18]>> Yeah. I don't know.

[00:03:19]>> So, Tom, >> I can go one way or the other.

[00:03:22]>> Don't do that.

[00:03:23]>> I'm what they call an ambi turner.

[00:03:25]>> I can't turn left.

[00:03:27]>> Zoolander reference. Very good. Why do I reference out of 11, Tom? Can you >> I have a good one for this. I have a good one for this. Um, I was doing a little bit of behind the scenes reading.

[00:03:35]Uh, and of course >> you just Sorry, you just said off Mike, I've done no prep. I've not read on about anything. So, straight up the one thing I was like, okay, I'm gonna find a good 11 for this.

[00:03:46]>> Sure. Sure you did. And there's no shortage of stuff out there for Jonathan Nolan movies. Jonathan Nolan, but also Christopher Nolan movies, which is what we're talking.

[00:03:56]>> Keep going. This is Christopher Nolan movies. And so, there's a lot of BTS and a lot of things that people talk about that happen on set and all this. And during the filming of Katie Holmes's scenes, Christopher Nolan 11 separate times had to check to see if she still had a pulse. Actually, that was happened like in repeatedly. There were times where they were just like, "Is she are they doing like a weekend at Bernie's thing here? Is she actually still with the living?" What a Unfortunately, in a film stacked with character actors and, you know, very recognizable faces and people delivering sturdy, reliable work, what a shame. Katie Holmes, it's a bummer. It's a bit of a bummer.

[00:04:37]>> Wow.

[00:04:38]>> Okay. I just And that's why I rate out of 11.

[00:04:40]>> Yeah. Because of Katie Holmes, unfortunately.

[00:04:43]>> I mean, she had to be involved.

[00:04:45]>> Some nambulent performance in this, you know. She >> s what's the word?

[00:04:49]ambulance means call an ambulance.

[00:04:51]>> No, sleepwalking. But yeah, I suppose uh they could have called.

[00:04:55]>> There you go, listener. You've just learned some Namb.

[00:04:58]>> That's good.

[00:04:59]>> He's the third Nolan brother. There's Christopher, Jonathan, and some Nambolan.

[00:05:04]>> All right, that's great. All right, >> he wrote Inception cuz it's the >> shout shush shush and shout your name >> if you like this film.

[00:05:12]>> Shush and shout.

[00:05:13]>> Shush and shout. But okay, so Frank. Oh.

[00:05:18]Oh, god [ __ ] I like this film.

[00:05:24]>> I just followed my own direction. Follow my own direction.

[00:05:27]>> Uh, Tom.

[00:05:29]>> Okay. Yeah, >> that's interesting. Um, >> would you like me to go first?

[00:05:32]Obviously, mine's going to be a bit lower than you, and you can sort of pick.

[00:05:37]>> Go.

[00:05:37]>> Yeah, I I would go a 7.1.

[00:05:43]>> Okay. That's That's pretty good. Yeah, I think it's a good movie.

[00:05:47]>> Yeah, it's a good movie. I'm going to give it a 9.5.

[00:05:51]>> Oh, yeah.

[00:05:52]>> 9.5. Wow, that's pretty high.

[00:05:55]>> Yeah, I mean, this is a fantastic film.

[00:05:58]Um, >> yeah, >> like >> it's not one of the like canonical fantastic films. It's not like the Fantastic Four or There's No Beasts and Where You Can Find Them or anything like that.

[00:06:06]>> I mean, they're such bad films. Let's not even bring them up.

[00:06:09]>> Yeah, but I'd agree the Fantastic Beast movies are bad. Uh, I've only seen one of them.

[00:06:14]>> That's great. That's great. But this came out like before the MCU began. So it has a lot to we we have a lot to be grateful for. I would say to Christopher Nolan.

[00:06:24]>> Yeah.

[00:06:24]>> Which is weird cuz poor DC just went to shite after all of this.

[00:06:30]>> There's a lot of context around these films. And obviously it's it feels very cliche to even get into like the well these are very influential movies and what Nolan did with the comic book genre and what he how he revived Batman and all that sort of stuff. Like I I you know, everyone kind of knows that it's one of those things that you could talk to people who maybe only care about comic book movies and maybe people who only care about commercial movies and maybe people who don't even care that much about it would be like, "Oh, I'm aware of how important Batman, The Dark Knight, and to some extent The Dark Knight Rises were."

[00:07:02]>> Yeah. You know, >> it's um I mean, even people who don't really know films kind of know this series of Batman like the Joker from The Dark Knight is is beyond recognized. And I think Chris Christian Bailey is everyone's Batman. Like people like him as Batman. There's an argument like Ben Affleck who I like as Batman. But >> most likes Ben Affleck as Bruce Bruce Wayne particularly. You hear the argument that kind of like when it's like is this person a good Batman? Are they a good Bruce Wayne? Are they both sort of the Peter Parker argument with things like that gets thrown out as well? Like is it better as the persona?

[00:07:34]Is it better as the actual the secret identity? Yeah. Um, you know, Robert Patson is still in the early days. That feels like I don't know if that's ever actually going to [ __ ] happen, the second Batman movie, but I think he had a pretty good whack at it. I still, as someone who never really cared that much for them growing up, we did the Batman Tim Burton movie last year >> and I was surprised to find that like, no, Michael Keaton holds up. I think he's a good Batman. Like, >> he's a great Bruce Wayne. He's fun.

[00:08:01]>> Yeah. I don't know if I feel too passionately about any of them, but I guess it's probably Bale by default for me >> for the timing of when this came out and and what it did for film. Yeah. I mean, I I grew up with Clooney. I loved Clooney is like, >> but I just it's hard to watch his films now because they are so silly and you're like, "Ah, that's a shame because he's good. He's good in that very camp sort of silly style Batman, but he still has charm and power and charisma." So you're like, "Okay, cool." Um, >> charisma, uniqueness, nerve, and talent.

[00:08:34]Those are the four things that you need to make a good bat.

[00:08:36]>> What does that spell if that was a um acrostic poem?

[00:08:39]>> Those four words put together.

[00:08:41]>> Yeah. That's not That's Wow. I just tried to cut you off. Really tried to cut you off.

[00:08:48]>> You tried to cut me off.

[00:08:49]>> Do you want Do you know what is so interesting is this film made what 375 at the box office? Um, >> yeah. It wasn't a huge sensation. There was there's always, you know, as people often talk about the kind of like alternate universe in which this never got a sequel. It could have very easily been Warner Brothers going like ah we could like it doesn't demand a sequel given its returns. It's there's I don't think there are there was anyone who sensibly thought well if we make a sequel to this it will make a billion dollars and also let's get the guy from Brokeback Mountain. Clearly that's what this is clamoring for. Uh Katie Holmes maybe we'd cut her a drift. Uh, Maggie Gyllenhaal gets her own shot at giving a different but also radically out of step performance with the movie. Like Rachel Rachel's a strange character.

[00:09:35]>> A strange character and I don't I mean Christopher Nolan doesn't write women well. Like that's that's a flaw of his for sure.

[00:09:42]>> You are correct and I should we should lay that more at him. Like I don't think Katie Holmes is very good in this. I don't think she has a lot to do.

[00:09:47]>> I think she's better than Maggie Gyllenhaal.

[00:09:50]There's an argument cuz Maggie Gyllenhaal is really strange in the Dark Knight.

[00:09:57]>> She's a Gyllenhaal. Like they're just a kooky kind of creative artsy family and they do weird stuff and that's fine.

[00:10:03]>> Yeah.

[00:10:04]>> But she just I mean >> Harvey like just some of the stuff she's doing in that movie is really really really bizarre.

[00:10:12]>> Yes. Okay. But the point was to go back Batman Begins made 373 million. Sorry, I misspoke before, but then The Dark Knight and >> 100 budget or is it a little more than 100?

[00:10:26]>> It was It was not a cheap movie.

[00:10:28]>> No, I think it was around 100. I'll look that up as we talk. But both >> and >> and Dark Night Rises both made a billion.

[00:10:37]>> Yes.

[00:10:38]>> So, it's like >> it did something. 150 million was the budget. 150 for a guy >> just made double >> which Nolan, you know, was not approved uh or a known quantity at this point.

[00:10:49]This is him coming off Insomnia.

[00:10:51]>> Insomnia. Yeah. So, we spoke about this the other day offline. We're talking about how he actually got called in to direct Troy.

[00:10:58]>> Yes.

[00:10:58]>> Which then, >> what's the original director of Troy?

[00:11:01]>> Wolf Gang Peterson.

[00:11:02]>> Peterson. Yeah. So, he was on it. He quit. He walked off to do something else. A Superman movie in fact, I think, which is weird. And then they were like, "Christopher Nolan, this is your shot.

[00:11:11]Come in and take over and we'll, you know, prove yourself and then you can do whatever you want." He came in, he worked hard for a couple of months and then Peterson just was like, "No, Superman's fallen through. I'm back. Get get off my film." And just took back took it over. So like >> the idea of that happening now, you know, like that someone could 20 years is the difference obviously, but someone could come in and say, "The [ __ ] is this Christopher Nolan guy? Doesn't everyone know I'm Wolf Gang Peterson?" a name that rings out amongst, you know, the corridors of cinema. Wolf Gang >> and look, Troy is a pretty good movie.

[00:11:45]>> I It's Troy is a kind of fun movie, honestly. It's It's a movie that I think got savaged to within an inch of its life when it came out. And now when you watch it, you're just like, I don't know. There's a lot worse ways to spend two and a half hours than watching this.

[00:11:56]>> That first scene where Achilles, Brad Pit, jumps and slices that guy through the shoulder and >> the jump pinser attack almost like a scorpion thing is crazy. We are not talking about the movie Troy. We should be talking about Batman.

[00:12:08]>> Batman Begins. Here's the thing. It's so spoken about. It's it's a it's a fantastic film. Should we go through the cast just so we have to talk about >> just to clarify, it is, you know, and this is the last time I'll I'll try for a while to talk about The Dark Knight.

[00:12:21]But it is both a very spoken about movie and a far second for the trilogy. Like if you're talking about movies that get spoken the most about, The Dark Knight might be top three of the last of the of the century of the 21st century. There's the Dark Knight, probably Interstellar, like you know, Nolan movies are the ones that get spoken about.

[00:12:42]>> Infinity War.

[00:12:44]>> Sure. Yes, you're right. the some of the Avengers movies as well, but like it is like the reverence that is shown to the Dark Knight is, you know, I think it has a nine on IMDb, which is which I know makes it sound like I just came in my my pants saying like waiting for IMDb, but like it is IMDb is notoriously one of those things where people review bomb and like it's very hard to if if a movie has a seven on IMDb, you're like, "Wow, that's pretty high for that." A nine is unheard of, right? Like it's it's crazy how how >> this has an 8.2 on IMDb. So >> which fairly high but anyway the cast of Batman the kids.

[00:13:20]>> I would just quickly talk about this is a comparable filming quality and enjoyment for me to the Dark Knight.

[00:13:28]>> Oh I I think they're very far apart.

[00:13:30]>> See The Dark Knight is is I don't know.

[00:13:33]I find The Dark Knight harder to rewatch.

[00:13:37]>> I've rewatched that movie. So I was that exact age. I was probably 14 when it came out >> that here we are still talking about The Dark Knight. So, we'll get off it. But, but I watched it so many times. I don't ever need to watch it again. And that hasn't diminished my my love for it. I I think The Dark Knight is just an incredible film. I truly have seen it 20 times, maybe maybe 30 times, like just a ridiculous and all that within the space of like two years. I just watched it repeatedly.

[00:14:07]>> Uh I should watch it again, honestly.

[00:14:08]But it's been a while.

[00:14:09]>> Maybe we can do it next week. Maybe we could do a maybe we could do a sequential film.

[00:14:12]>> Well, we should say that this is the first the first time we've ever picked the first movie in a series. Normally, we go Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire. Thor [ __ ] Ragnarok. Jurassic Park 3. Why not? Nothing matters. We're all going to die, right? But this is the first time we've gone Batman Begins, right? Like that's although I suppose we did the first Batman as well of the Tim Burton movies.

[00:14:34]>> True. True. Hey, sometimes it's a Batman tendency.

[00:14:36]>> Sometimes it makes sense. Okay. The cast. Christian Bale, Michael Kaine, Gary Oldman, Katie Holmes, Liam Niss, Tom Wilkinson, who is fantastic, Killian Murphy, Morgan Freeman.

[00:14:50]>> Do I need to do I need to go on? Is that okay?

[00:14:53]>> I I mean, Rucker Hower is one of the few that that I think is still on the list there. Who's like the uh Bill Earl or William Earl who's obviously very well known for Bladeunner and just one of those guys who Nolan loves doing that.

[00:15:05]like uh he gets Matthew Modí in The Dark Knight Rises, he gets Tom Behringer in Inception. Like he pulls these actors who kind of were big in the ' 70s, '8s, 90s and is like you want to be just like some random old guy in this movie, >> but there's always like a tie. So for what? Rutka Rutka >> Rutka or Rutka maybe it's Rucker.

[00:15:26]>> So he obviously the Dark Knight sorry Batman Begins Far Out looks a lot like Bladeunner. That's obviously a huge visual inspiration. Nolan has said that and that's why he gets someone from Blood Ridge to come. So it's like hey this is a tiein. I'm paying homage and I want you part of it to kind of tie it in this weird like >> William Fner is the bank manager in the first scene of the Dark Knight and of course from heat and that that movie is drawing so much from heat and so it's like yes he is making those connection.

[00:15:51]>> You can't get opportun to be a bank manager. It just wouldn't make sense.

[00:15:54]>> Uh no she even know who YOU'RE ROBBING FROM HERE. YOU GOT A GREAT BUS. AH, THEY OPEN THE THE safe and it's like this is just cocaine. It's all Where's the money still? Ow.

[00:16:06]>> And cappuccinos >> Dunkin Donuts. Dunk Dunkinos. Yeah. Um I want to shout out two more actors in it that I just think it's brilliant.

[00:16:13]They're in it. Richard Break plays um Joe Hill maybe. I can't remember the guy who shoots >> Joe Chill who shoots Batman's parents.

[00:16:22]Richard Break is the original Night King from Game of Thrones. Um, and he's also in uh, well, I just and he's got a very particular look to him where when you see him, if you know him from that, if you know him from Barbarian, it's like there's that freak. Like, he's got such an interesting look and I really appreciate seeing him and things. And also, the actor's name is impossible to say. I can't remember it. But the homeless guy who Bruce Wayne gives his jacket to is Boris the Blade from Snatch and just one of those one of those random Serbian actors who just shows up in [ __ ] every now and then. And every time I see him in this, I'm like, it's Boris the Blade. That's great. That's that's cool that he's got a little role in this. A guy who seems like he should have been in John Wick, but somehow wasn't.

[00:17:02]>> Is it Rad Sedia?

[00:17:04]>> I think you're right. Yes. A very difficult name to say, but like Boris the Blade is how I think.

[00:17:09]>> And then there you got a John Nolan in there. I wonder if that's a that's a Nolan, right?

[00:17:12]>> No, I don't think that's some Nambl is the Yeah. Yeah. The other Nolan. Um, okay. So, some Namblump. So I >> is Christian Bale the greatest actor of our generation?

[00:17:24]>> I don't think so. But that's okay.

[00:17:26]People People seem to like that as a take. Uh we may even have more to say that about that on a future episode. Who knows? But that's certain that's certainly not my take.

[00:17:37]>> Okay.

[00:17:37]>> What was that?

[00:17:39]>> I just made a funny noise.

[00:17:40]>> You made a sound like like and only maybe three people are going to care about this, but it's like lick a tongue from Pokemon. just like whenever he does >> his tongue >> and he sticks his tongue out and grabs something. That was that was pretty much the same.

[00:17:52]>> Yeah, that's great. I'm glad I did that so you could reference Pokemon.

[00:17:56]>> Christian Bale is a very good center to these movies. I >> I remember when I was growing up David and Margaret reviewed this movie and Margaret said, "I do love seeing Christian Bale's chin in the mask.

[00:18:07]>> He's got a good chin.

[00:18:08]>> He's got a great chin. Strong chin." And I realized, oh, do people, you know, are they admired for their chins? I had not known that before.

[00:18:16]>> Oh, I see.

[00:18:17]>> And I never will.

[00:18:18]>> Well, there's that song from uh Mary Poppins all about it.

[00:18:23]>> Please sing it. Please chiny chin chin chin chin cherro.

[00:18:29]>> All the chin joints in all the world.

[00:18:33]>> That's very good.

[00:18:34]>> Oh dear.

[00:18:36]>> Forget it, Jake. It's Chinatown. Oh, >> okay. I think we should talk about we spoke of this on on Iron Man about how um origin stories are always more enjoyable in the first two/3s.

[00:18:48]I would that that rings true here. The first twothirds of this film is is fantastic masterpiece kind of level and then they get into the narrows and the gas is released and the fear takes over and you're kind of like, "Okay, >> all right."

[00:19:02]>> Yeah.

[00:19:03]>> Kick some ass Batman and let's call it a day.

[00:19:05]>> I partially agree. I don't love the first the first act of this movie I think is serviceable. It's not something that I'm bowled over by. Even though I'm certainly not bored or upset by it, but like the movie starts for me probably at the 45 minute mark when Christian Bale when Bruce Wayne goes spelunking exploring the grounds underneath the southwest the foundations of the Southwest wing or wherever it is.

[00:19:34]And uh it was pretty good. It was okay.

[00:19:36]and he's down and he the bats come out and he stands up while the bats circling him and I was like >> one with the bats >> I just I'm like I can't believe how well this works and how the swelling score and how just the the the sound uh the foley artistry of the bats the VFX that is a very simple and kind of crude effect of just having like you know a flapping sort of menagery of bats surrounding him and it not only works then it really works for me the second time when he uses them as backup in that scene where he has to escape the cops and he calls them with a a hypersonic sort of screeching thing and the second the bats show up there I'm like why am I thrilled to see bats in this movie like every time I'm kind of elated that there are >> it's one of the only like not NAF things there are a few comic book things you're like all right good work grappling gun very good but the Sonic the to be able to call the bats to him and then he jumps down the staircase in the spiral of bats and it's like land. It's great.

[00:20:40]It's really great. Silly in the way that it still works and it still feels like cool without >> Yeah.

[00:20:48]>> Even even when he's in the Batcave and he brings Rachel back with him and when he moves from Rachel to the computer and back to her, he does a little flourish both times where he's like and he kind of glides to >> like Dracula moment like >> True. Yes. It's got a very uh uh Bram Stoker sort of element to it. I agree.

[00:21:07]Um it's it's that 20 years later, we look at the things in this movie that were so gritty and groundbreaking at the time and now we're like this has become a bit cliche and a bit corny, right? And like the things that seem seemed like I didn't know Batman could be like this. I thought he had to be a goofball. I thought he had to be kind of like imposing but not particularly threatening or menacing. And in this he is quite effectively scary. One of my favorite scenes in the whole thing is Mark Boon Jr. who plays uh Frra F whatever his name is. Um uh Gary Oldman's partners uh like corrupt partner.

[00:21:47]>> Um him him walking down the alley. A line you and I quote to each other all the time. Why they don't like falafel.

[00:21:54]>> Falafel.

[00:21:55]>> Great line.

[00:21:56]>> Please my kids. And when he gets pulled up by the fas >> when fas gets pulled up by fl >> open your ears.

[00:22:05]>> Sorry. Sorry.

[00:22:06]>> Like flaccid. Have you heard that before?

[00:22:08]>> Never. Weirdly. No. I've I've but I've found the exact term I've been looking for. So, thank you. That will help a lot in the future. Um, but when Flass is walking down the alley and Batman pulls him up by the grappling hook and he's just like, "Where were the drugs going?

[00:22:26]Do I look like a cop? That [ __ ] is great. I really get pumped up.

[00:22:30]>> So good. And it's been so parodyed now 20 years later. All right. It still works cuz when you see it in context, you're like, "This guy's tough. This guy's tough as and I don't care that it might be a silly voice." It's intimidating.

[00:22:42]>> What my scene I thought you were going to reference is when they're down at the docks and he's jumping between the shipping containers and the guy that the guy goes, "WHERE ARE YOU?" AND he's right by here. Here and the guy goes, He's I like that scene a lot even though it kind of is a bit of a a tease because you basically see the weird flourish from uh Falcone's perspective where he comes around the corner and he just sees this like complete chaos and you don't really see what's going on. Yeah. Like it's it's just meant to seem like a flurry of weirdness and and action. Of course, when he pulls Falcone out of the car and goes, "I'm Batman." and headbutts him, you're like, "Yeah, great. I'm really I like grape head is brutal. It's so good. Strings in light.

[00:23:27]>> Yeah. Flies away.

[00:23:28]>> See, it has it has so many more lines that I It's been a while since I've seen it. So, there's so many more lines that jumped out to me as funny comic book lines like the recurring of nice coat.

[00:23:40]Um even when he calls the bats, he's like back up. And you're like, dude, when the thing that Nolan does even in the Dark Knight, but I think you know it works in in much more high octane and better action scenes, but this the chase scene between Batman and the police and it keeps cutting to people on the radio being like, >> COULD SOMEONE EVEN GET A LOOK AT THIS GUY? AND THEN IT'S LIKE NEVER mind like just, >> you know, every character should be played by Jason Mansukus just being like whoa, has anyone even seen what this guy looks like? Like >> he's flying on rooftops. Yes, it's very silly but very comic booky. Uh I think the best thing about Bale is that he has the subtlest lisp anyway in life.

[00:24:22]>> In his American accent especially, it comes out in in American Psycho in Moments of Extremity and it's just a little bit there under the surface, but when he does the Batman voice, it's the main attraction where he does the swear to me like just the sort of like Yes.

[00:24:39]the the the wateriness of his s's when he's in Batman voice really works. It's it's so out it seems weird. You're like, why would Batman have a lisp? And yet you're like, it's kind of great. It's kind of hot. It's kind of unsettling.

[00:24:54]It's a lot of weird things all at once that I'm like, that's sort of genius.

[00:24:57]It's not to shout ahead now to another Nolan movie, but it's sort of the Bane voice where the first time you hear it, you're like, "Excuse me." And then by the end of the movie, you're like, "Kind of the best choice, actually." Like that's exactly >> what else could it have been?

[00:25:10]>> Expect one of us in directing >> just like Yeah. Great. Fantastic.

[00:25:14]>> You didn't need to do that bad impression of it, but that's fine.

[00:25:16]>> That's the best impression you'll ever hear of the vain voice.

[00:25:19]>> Sure.

[00:25:20]>> Um, >> you merely adopted the darkness. I was born into it.

[00:25:25]>> Just good. It's a good impression. Tell me otherwise.

[00:25:27]>> I'm telling you, it's not.

[00:25:29]>> And then he has that bill where he's like, >> "By the time I saw light, it was blinding." And he just has that one really aggressive word. Anyway, that's a different movie.

[00:25:38]>> That is a different movie and an entirely different moment. Killian Murphy in this. What do you think of him as >> [ __ ] incredible?

[00:25:44]>> Like kind of next level performance from Killian Murphy.

[00:25:48]>> We spoke about this with Ragnarok and Thor. How Tom Hston was almost Thor like went to like a dress up party, went to the costume, >> he dressed up as Thor once for Halloween and now he's just like, you know, I was almost Thor.

[00:26:04]>> I was nearly Thor actually. Um, Killian Murphy was nearly Batman and you're like, you see him in the screen test and he actually looks pretty good.

[00:26:12]>> Yeah, but good choice to go scarecrow instead.

[00:26:14]>> I think he's a I think he's a perfect scarecrow.

[00:26:18]>> It's to the movies.

[00:26:20]You know, it's the first time I've watched it in a long time.

[00:26:23]>> And every time he was in it, I was like, I get why he's not the main villain in theory. In practice, it's a little frustrating because he is so compelling.

[00:26:34]I would watch a movie I would watch an alternative cut of this movie where Scarecrow is in it 20 to 30% more and actually becomes the predominant bad guy that that Batman has to fight.

[00:26:45]Especially after he [ __ ] sets him on fire like >> and poisons him and he's like going crazy being like, "Oh god, the fear. Oh god."

[00:26:56]>> I just I think he's so captivating.

[00:26:59]Alfred pulling out his I'm just glad it's not like a Motorola razor that he's calling Alfred on.

[00:27:06]>> It has to go beep beep.

[00:27:11]>> But also, you have to imagine the hard cut from him on the roof to the back of the car and you're like, well, tell me how that happened. Like, how did 70-year-old Michael Kane get Batman off a roof into the back of the [ __ ] car?

[00:27:25]>> I haven't thought about it.

[00:27:26]>> It's a bit more foreshadowing. He does the same thing with Rachel.

[00:27:29]>> Yeah. In a date rape joke that I found a little uncomfortable >> when Michael Kane's like >> I wouldn't say it's a date rape joke.

[00:27:37]>> When it cuts to the characters watching and he's like a little bit much, I'm afraid. And the two people watching are like dirty old man. Like yeah, whatever.

[00:27:45]It's a silly joke, >> I guess. So, yeah, that's that's a shame that you brought that.

[00:27:50]>> It's whatever. It doesn't ruin the movie or anything.

[00:27:53]>> We're all right to move It's, you know, Katie Holmes is not speaking, so it's a successful scene in that regard.

[00:27:57]>> She's not that bad. I don't think she's that bad. I don't think she's that good.

[00:28:01]But I was like, I watched it and I was like, she's fine. But she's like, your father would be disappointed. She slaps him and she slaps him twice. You're like, okay, okay.

[00:28:10]>> That scene, I agree with you that if you ask me what's her most successful scene in the movie, I think it's that one.

[00:28:15]>> Her worst. I do have her worst scene. If you want that, go on. It's at the end when they're in the wreckage of of Wayne Mana and her she's got droopy face and she looks like she just had a stroke and she's like >> we could have been together.

[00:28:28]>> Okay, but you need Batman.

[00:28:30]>> Okay, >> I don't like there's something wrong with her face.

[00:28:36]>> Jesus Christ. My criticism is I don't think she has much chemistry or you know real spirit to her performance. You're like she's suffering from a medical affliction and I don't approve. That scene doesn't make sense. And her face being lopsided doesn't help it because she's like >> I guess she's tired. She's been up all night with Joffrey. That sounds like a nightmare.

[00:28:57]>> Who's Joff? Oh, the kid from Game of Thrones. Good Game of Thrones reference again.

[00:29:01]>> Thank you. Yeah. Weirdly. Oh my god.

[00:29:03]>> That kid became King King Joffrey.

[00:29:05]>> His name in real life is God, I can't remember the actor who played Joffrey's real real name. Isn't that a shame? He's very he's very good >> young actor and he's very cute in this movie for the the few lines that he has.

[00:29:16]I want to say it's Jack something, but uh I >> I cannot even find him on this list.

[00:29:21]Jack Gleason.

[00:29:22]>> Jack Glacon. It is Jack Gleason.

[00:29:23]>> He's you, isn't it? The other kids won't believe me. And Batman's like, "You can spy on your neighbors with this."

[00:29:30]>> Why doesn't he give him a bat symbol? He gives him a weird like $2,000 tool. I had to guess.

[00:29:36]>> Yeah. Yeah. Again, for something that you're like, "That kid's only going to use that for bad things. There's no way that kid's going to like >> No, cuz he's blind. get really into nighttime like astrology or anything.

[00:29:47]It's like there is a neighbor across the way who is being accosted by that young boy without their >> Come on. I do feel bad for him when he's got the the fear gas in his face and he's there's scarecrow on a horse riding around like that's terrifying for anyone let alone kid.

[00:30:05]>> I think I agree with you though. Part of the problem of that last sequence is the fear gas has been so individual and so specific for the characters up to that moment and then it just kind of becomes like everyone becomes a writhing mass of like it's it's a mob but they don't necessarily tear each other apart. They kind of pick one person and attack them.

[00:30:25]>> Yeah. It's kind of zombie mindset.

[00:30:28]>> Zombie mindset. But also like previously when Scarecrow has used it on the person, they've been debilitated in fear and now it's like no, now we are angry and unruly and it's like that's not what it's done up to this point. Like it should be a bunch of people just cowering.

[00:30:42]>> The a effect has changed. But like also being half unconscious and then when they give it to Rachel he's like I gave her a concentrated dose and she's going to be >> brain dead in 30 minutes if >> Yeah.

[00:30:52]>> Like so is that going to happen to all the people in the in the Narrows? Also, bad job Bruce calming her down.

[00:30:59]>> Don't panic. You've been poisoned.

[00:31:01]>> It's like bad followup for spanning Rael.

[00:31:06]>> Rachel >> is not going to help. Take the mask off.

[00:31:08]Like, you're trying to save her life, man. Like, >> I don't know. I know protecting the identity is important, but just speak in your normal voice or just do like a nice voice like, "Hey, hey, sweetie. It's okay. It's going to be okay."

[00:31:22]just does his [ __ ] Welsh British hybrid accent. All right, Rachel, it's all right. I'm just character actor [ __ ] Christian Bale, aren't I? In it.

[00:31:31]>> In it.

[00:31:32]>> I've got a mole near my nose that's really distracting sometimes.

[00:31:36]>> But then sometimes you can't even see it.

[00:31:38]>> Yeah, it's gotten more prominent the older he's gotten and and the skinnier he gets. You watch the movies where he goes full machinist and you're like, "Well, the mole's eaten. Nothing else is is getting sort of sustained, but that mole is taking most of the food.

[00:31:52]>> I want He's never gotten it. He's I mean, he could easily get it removed. I don't know why he >> It's a fascinating uh detail.

[00:31:59]>> So handsome and like classically good-looking. You kind of go, "Oh, interesting.

[00:32:03]>> Also, his teeth never fixed his teeth."

[00:32:06]>> Sure, sure, >> sure. They're not that bad. They're not that bad. It's fine. Do you know who's amazing in this film?

[00:32:10]>> Go on.

[00:32:11]>> Gary Oldman.

[00:32:12]>> I agreed.

[00:32:13]>> Say no more. Move on. Of course he is.

[00:32:14]It's Gary Oldman. I think pretty much everyone nails it and it's why I'm being a bit rude to Katie Holmes. I will admit she is not actively terrible in this film. She is not anywhere near the standard especially when she kind of is asked to and that story line which I don't think is very well fleshed out which isn't her fault but that story line is asked to be the emotional sort of fulcrum of the movie which it just doesn't work. I just I because I also don't understand their relationship because when they see each other when he comes back from Princeton, they don't touch. They never hug when they see each other.

[00:32:46]>> They're not Yeah. They're not physically connected. They're not emotion. Like they grew up together as children and yet they don't hug when he comes back from Princeton. They don't hug when they see each other after years when she thinks he's dead, right? Like I just I don't really >> She's talking with Alfred, right? And then she's and Bruce, she's like, "Oh, oh no, the restaurant.

[00:33:04]>> The restaurant." And then when she comes to give him a birthday present, they kiss at the end and you're like, "This doesn't feel like the release of an unspoken affection. This feels out of place. It feels completely in congruous with what their physical relationship has been to this point, which anyway, the emotional qualities of it are non-existent because they do not have chemistry, unfortunately." No.

[00:33:20]>> So, he has more chemistry with Michael Kane, which is not a complaint. They Michael Kane and Christian Bale have incredible chemistry. Michael Kane is so good in this like I've I think it's interesting because you you know he's become and he even was at this point kind of a parody of himself but >> when you actually give him the chance to act which we've kind of forget that he's a brilliant brilliant actor.

[00:33:43]>> I love Michael Kane. I think he's he will always be an institution. I think it's wonderful we still have him with us. Obviously he's retired at this point. He's he's like 95. Like he's he's chasing David Atenburgh for that age.

[00:33:54]Like it's it's kind of remarkable how long he sustained himself. I read both of his weirdly both of his autobiographies when I was a teenager and it was really interesting reading one that ended right around the late 90s early 2000s and he's like this feels like it's the twilight of my career. I think I'm done. And then the next one's like I met this chap called Christopher Nolan and it's just like the next act like it revives his career for almost 20 years. He's the Nolan guy and he's in a couple of other movies as well around.

[00:34:24]Honestly, I'm I'm struggling to think >> Zack one >> of course the one that we talked about that Zack get the name but it's like it's like >> and Morgan Freeman and Allan >> I think it's I think it's literally called [ __ ] it. Like I think that's the name of the movie.

[00:34:40]>> Three [ __ ] old guys just >> three [ __ ] old guys and they're just shruging because they're like >> Zach Brass just hanging his head in the background like oh my god what am I doing? He didn't even get that Scrubs reunion up and going, but you know, >> Scrubs is good and the Scrubs union is good. Scrubs new stuff. Love it.

[00:34:57]>> I haven't seen it and I I don't know.

[00:34:59]Maybe.

[00:35:00]>> So then don't comment. So then don't be a [ __ ] caner. Okay. Hey, how about that?

[00:35:03]>> You're right. How about that? You're correct as always. You're absolutely right. I apologize.

[00:35:08]>> Thank you very much. Okay, so Michael Kane's fantastic. I'm so glad he works with Nolan in every film except for Oenheimer now. Like >> Well, yeah. I mean he basically has that moment in basically he has that moment where John David Washington says to him in uh tenant goodbye sir Michael and it is kind of Michael Kane being like I'm done I'm this is my one of my last movies I'm retiring and he has an onscreen farewell and he is his character is called Sir Michael in that movie bit on the nose whatever ten it's a good movie >> who cares cuz it's Michael Kane so you're like someone's got to say >> he also has the one of the most unforgiving roles in that movie where he just kind of John David Washington sits down. He's like, "Pretty sure I know the plot of this movie." And Michael Kane's like, "Well, strap in." And just tells him like five different avenues of nonsense that you're like, "What the [ __ ] is going on this poor man?" Like, why did you make him do this, Chris?

[00:36:02]He's probably cold and wants some soup.

[00:36:05]Don't make him do this.

[00:36:06]>> Give the man a tea. Is it? So, he I haven't seen tenants. He explains the first layer of just absolute almost offensively complicated plotting in that movie. It's a good movie. Don't >> goes backwards for me but forwards for you.

[00:36:20]>> It's it's a movie I think was really successful just right up to its final act where it is kind of just like you've you've lost me but I'm still like I'm I'm enjoying the fact that I'm confounded. But you know what? It's a good movie. Um Batman Begins the first 40 minutes or so we haven't talked about Liam Niss at all. Yes, I think good casting in the sense that he's a great presence. Also has good chemistry with Bale. Obviously makes absolutely no sense as Razal Ghoul and one of those decisions 20 years later where we're just kind of like it's a misdirect but even so you're kind of like yeah I mean it's his name is Raz Al Ghoul like no syllable Irish man fits with but then he's like my name is Duk or whatever or like you know hry.

[00:37:07]>> Yeah. So, it's like that doesn't work either. None of these names fit Liam Niss.

[00:37:13]>> The characterization and the and the plot and everything fits him. That's totally fine. If it wasn't Razal Ghoul, who who most people know from the comics?

[00:37:21]>> Yeah.

[00:37:22]>> As a as a very different ethnicity. So, it's like, hey, how did this happen?

[00:37:27]>> Why it fits with Ken Watonabi being the misdirect, you know? And I I actually think with the very limited screen time he has, Ken Watton is quite effective in this movie.

[00:37:34]>> Good. really love.

[00:37:36]>> What's the speech he gives when he's like he's just walked into the the League of Shadows building at the top and he's like, I'm not going to do the voice. I'm not even going to quit it.

[00:37:45]>> No, go on. Give it a go.

[00:37:46]>> Feels a bit offensive to do that accent.

[00:37:48]>> You've got the facial hair. You might as well.

[00:37:51]>> His patience like and the line delivery he gives is so like weighted and slow and like meaty. Oh, it's good.

[00:38:00]>> It's why he's probably the best performance in Inception. Although I go back and forth because I love Tom Hardy in that movie as well. But Ken Watonavi is is so great in in Inception.

[00:38:08]>> Really?

[00:38:09]>> Uh yes.

[00:38:10]>> You don't think Leo is great in Inception?

[00:38:12]>> I think Leo is good, but he's the he's doing the the Bale role where it's like he's the center of it. He's got to keep everything moving. He doesn't get to be the exciting performer.

[00:38:20]>> You can't say Bale's like Batman is not a center boring everyman role. That's >> He 100% is. I I will disagree with you hard on that. That is exactly what Batman is asked to do in this movie where there are villains like Scarecrow.

[00:38:34]>> [ __ ] no. Alfred gets to be more fun.

[00:38:37]Alfred gets to have quips and get to have a go all those push-ups. You can't lift a bloody bloody, you know. And Bruce has Bruce has tell them that joke.

[00:38:45]You know, >> he he's got a couple of lines in this. I would say >> understand all that.

[00:38:50]>> I would agree with you that in >> this movie. Well, no, that's Blucius Fox's line. That's funny there.

[00:38:57]Freeman incredible in this movie compared to the other movies in the trilogy. Bale has a bit more quippiness and a bit more like wise guy energy.

[00:39:06]That is gone in the Dark Knight and Dark Knight Rises. His job is to be the sullen, troubled, tortured center of the movie while everyone else has fun. I'm not saying that as a negative. I think Bale does a great job, but that is his job.

[00:39:19]>> We are talking about Batman Begins today. I I would say there's a tiny bit there's a seasoning of it in this movie where it's like yeah okay he gets a little bit more he gets the >> can they wait till after breakfast when they're in the prison you know and they're going to kill him uh you know he he says >> he says before breakfast actually because the breakfast is so >> oh before breakfast you're right sorry it was bad bad joke scanning there and then you know Michael Kane's like what do you call that and points to the television he's like damn good television like you know okay which I don't like that kind of Bruce I prefer him sullen emo Oh, like [ __ ] dashboard contest.

[00:39:52]>> Christian B. He's always going to be better at that part of it. 100%.

[00:39:57]>> Agreed. But I don't Anyway, the first 40-ish minutes of the movie are okay to me. They're not the most compelling stuff in the world. I think it's more interesting than how most comic book origin movies set up. And I think the fact that he we don't really bother too much with the why does Bruce Wayne know how to fight so well anyway before the League of Shadows. There's part of me that's like, I guess I don't really care. Like, and why did he go to to Tibet? Is that where they are?

[00:40:26]>> To get imprisoned so that he could fight bad guys so that he could find him.

[00:40:32]Like, >> well, this is this is the >> whatever. Like, it kind of just card coming in is because he's like he's gone to he's just battling his own demons.

[00:40:39]He's just out to be like, well, I just want to like fight criminals. I don't really know what to do. He's lost, right? He doesn't actually know what he's doing. He's just kind of treading water, searching out for violence.

[00:40:49]>> And then Dukard comes in and is like, I can offer you a plan. And you're like, oh, oh, okay. You, this guy's got some vision. He's actually going to be a wonderful mentor because I have talent and capability and all these, you know, passion to fight crime, but I have no idea what I'm doing or why.

[00:41:04]>> Yeah.

[00:41:05]>> So, you think you think Liam Niss Dukard is going to be again, it's like the double version of the of the misdirect.

[00:41:12]It's like, oh, he's good and he's actually helped me and he's guided me and he's being a really wonderful, caring mentor. You know, we're sharing stories of our lives. I don't know. I like it a lot. And I don't I like his I like the whole first act. I like the child Bruce. I like uh Lionus Roach who plays Thomas Wayne. I I like the family dynamic. Like >> it's the best possible version of the millionth [ __ ] time that we've seen.

[00:41:38]>> Again, this wasn't the millionth time.

[00:41:40]No, but but it not only had already been done by Burton and it not had already been done like I think in the animated series and the comic books and probably in a video game by this point. Like no, I suppose by the time we saw it in 2005, it wasn't the millionth version. But again, I'm not saying it's terrible. His dad has a nice paternal energy to him. His mom is a non-factor much in the way that we've Christoph.

[00:42:05]>> Yeah, it's a good good take. Um, but I I don't find any of that stuff particularly interesting. And I'm I'm no I don't really care about child Bruce all that much. Especially because to me the movie is way too in love with Thomas Wayne as a character of like, well, obviously we know Thomas Wayne was the one good billionaire. He was so good that he kept the scourge of Gotham at bay single-handedly. And I'm like, okay, I'm I'm far more interested in the movies that kind of question that legacy, especially the latest Batman with Robert Patterson. And I even there's a scene where they talk about how Bruce Wayne's great greatgrandfather was part of the Underground Railroad that helped slaves escape. I'm like, "Give me a [ __ ] break, guys." Like, you can't be the one good white wealthy family in America. Let's calm down.

[00:42:51]Like, it's always been good. It's just in your blood. It's just who you are.

[00:42:54]>> It is a little like That's fair. That's fair. But also, who cares and get over it because the chemistry is nice and I think the young boy connects really well. And when he's like, "It's my fault, Alfred." and he starts crying into Michael Kane and Michael Kane is like heartbroken for this kid because I was like ah the the whole first section I was like this kid can't act oh and he wants to leave the opera theater and he's a bit of a he's a bit scared and then his parents get shot and he's just sort of shocked and then that scene happens and it he kind of lets it out and it's strange because he's a child right and he's been holding back emotion which you don't expect and then he just crumples into Michael Kane and you're like there it is >> it's the most effective scene across I agree like the the scene between him and Michael Kane where he says, "I miss them so much." Alfred, you're like, "I feel that. I'm not heartless. This poor little boy."

[00:43:41]>> Um, but yeah, I I don't really that's not the stuff that entertains me all that much. The back and forth like quasi philosophical stuff between Liam Niss and Bruce Wayne and and Christian B is never the most interesting stuff to me.

[00:43:54]And so their first meeting has just that smack of Morphier and Neo like% >> why what what am I searching for, you know? Well, only you can know that. Or what what is your fear? And I'm going to teach you how to master your fear and have like an emotional and psychological moment of cathosis and epiphany. How?

[00:44:13]We're going to fight on the ice. All right. Like it's again, and I'm not saying that this is like this is bad. I just kind of go like I really prefer when this movie gets going and this stuff's okay. Like it it doesn't fascinate me that much. I see your point, but I disagree because I do love the the passing of time and I guess there could be more shown and it could be a little less like uh you know didactic.

[00:44:40]>> Yeah, just a little bit like maybe just show some real moments of of emotion of of I don't I don't know what you would do. I I'm you know I'm not a screenwriter, right? But it does at least show the passage of time and the growth to a degree and you're like, "Yeah, cool. He's getting to a point."

[00:44:56]but he also still has his morals of he hasn't bought into the cult entirely yet we see all the groundings of of what's going to make Batman >> and like okay cool I think it does enough of the origin that it it satisfies me >> the final challenge is is the part I always remember the most I really love that like all the ninjas and then him deciding to cut their arms and I remember as a kid the moment where Liam Niss was like you can't leave any mark and he's like I didn't And I remember as a kid being like, "Holy [ __ ] holy shit." Like, I was so excited by that moment and I still get excited by it.

[00:45:32]>> Teacher has become the master. It's that it's a classic moment to see it. And it's just like a simple little trick. So rewarding.

[00:45:38]>> Nissan's face when he's like, "He got me that motherfucker." Like >> and then Ken is just like >> just like very good. Yes.

[00:45:45]>> What's he like?

[00:45:47]>> I think I think I got away with just going grally there without going >> I don't know if you did. I don't know if you did.

[00:45:53]>> I think it was all right. I think it was all right. Um, >> it's all right. It's it's exactly what he says in the film. So, >> he does say that. That's true. Like, I'm just being honest to the the integrity of the film. Uh, I I you know, to get more into that. Actually, we can leave that for a moment cuz I think there's some like Butler's Pantry stuff behind all that, but >> Well, we can get into that soon if you want.

[00:46:11]>> Well, I guess it's just the first act of the movie is that then he goes back to Gotham. I really enjoy the process of him. As much as some people are like, you know, the worst thing about prequels, the worst thing about origin stories is they're like, haven't you ever wondered how XY Z? And it's like m kind of not really. Is it going to be interesting? I'm always really compelled by the Lucious stuff. And Christian, I really like that stuff. I really like him getting the the hardware. I really like him getting the the car, getting the the armor.

[00:46:41]>> Does it come in black? Like that's a classic little line. Silly. I do love the fact that about halfway through Lucius Fox just says to him, >> "I'm not an idiot." Like, "Don't tell me what you're doing. I don't have to lie, but >> you're Batman, right?" Like, >> I get that you're Batman.

[00:46:59]>> Good for you.

[00:47:00]>> It's It's good because he, you know, he can't be an idiot. And then obviously by the end he's >> working with him, running the company, and they're in cahoots together in a very good way. He's become trustworthy in the fold. I like it. It's everyone that he brings into his sort of circle, right? Whether it's what even though Liam Niss obviously kind of gets left behind, but that that idea of him having him as a mentor, then going back to Michael Kaine, then having Lucius brought into it, then working then Gary Oldman, the first scene where he goes to Gary Oldman, puts the stapler to his to his neck. I love that scene for so many different reasons, but the one I always forget is that it's the first time he tries to do his disappearing act and he [ __ ] it up. And it's so funny that Gary Alman sticks his head out the window.

[00:47:42]He's like, "There he [ __ ] is." And goes chasing after him and Batman's like, "I can't. That's so embarrassing.

[00:47:47]I can't let that happen again."

[00:47:48]>> Also runs and like >> dons his head on this fire escape stairwell. It's like, dude, like amazing commitment to the bit, but just get some tools.

[00:47:58]>> Yes.

[00:47:58]>> And then he's like, "Have you heard of spelunking?"

[00:48:01]>> Ah, yes. Spelunking, of course.

[00:48:02]>> Oh, yes. Cave diving, but the fun word for it.

[00:48:05]>> Yeah. You expecting much gunfire in those caves? That's my Morgan Freeman.

[00:48:09]It was not great.

[00:48:10]>> It's close. Um I do like the Let's Let's just quote lines. We're like, "So, you're just one man." No, we're two.

[00:48:16]>> Now we're two. It's a good line. That's a very I agree. I like that a lot.

[00:48:20]>> Um >> so much of this film makes me feel like a a kid watching and again, it could be the time when it came out cuz I was a kid. It just makes me feel joyful for cinema yet also silly comic book fun. You know what I Like it's kind of like it is serious cinema. It's a proper film, but it's so silly and it's so just like yeah, Batman's amazing. Look at the Tumblr.

[00:48:44]It's honestly the the most convincing thing I've I've heard you say like in in ever like no I 100% agree cuz I'm just like yeah look I have to when it's just him walking into Tom Wilkinson just being like so what are you doing here?

[00:48:58]Oh I'm Italian over here. And I'm just like yeah you are man. That's incredible that Tom Wilson is playing that is not Italian. I I literally said to Lisa was watching it. She was like, "What's he doing as a mob boss?" You know, I was like, "No, he's like he's like English."

[00:49:11]It's >> because I assumed he wasn't doing an accent.

[00:49:14]>> It's wild casting. I actually think it's great. I think it works. I love I love Tom Wilkinson in this movie despite the fact that he feels out of place, but it's like Yeah.

[00:49:24]>> Tom Wilson from Rock and Roll of Fame.

[00:49:26]He's fantastic in this. you dare [ __ ] like rock and roller as Tom Wilkinson's definitive role with Michael Clayton or in the bedroom or even isn't he in uh the full monty I think Tom Wilson he no he got the full monty on the west end >> possibly possibly but Michael is the is the Tom Wilkinson role >> yeah with another Batman look at this >> that's true actually >> it's all coming together >> uh but I really you're Bruce Wayne you're the prince of off him and you're like, >> see, I don't even think I don't think he sounds English, but I just think he sounds like a cartoonish gangster. And I do what you were saying before of like that's the kid joy in me. That's like, yeah, that's what a mob boss sounds like. Of course, that's what they would and how they would behave.

[00:50:13]>> And then when Killian Murphy's like, >> "You got guts, kid. I give you that."

[00:50:16]Like just ridiculous.

[00:50:18]>> I think he's got spirit, but that's fine.

[00:50:19]>> Spirit. You're right. He says spirit.

[00:50:21]>> Spirit kit. When he takes one punch and he kind of go >> begged >> begged like a dog.

[00:50:25]>> Like a dog. begged just yeah really >> when um when Killian Murphy's like you want to see my mask most people don't you know really care about these crazies >> they can't stand it and you're like whoa here he comes >> Killian Murphy's every scene in this >> turns on the eyes like this like Killian Murphy >> every Killian Murphy scene is a banger he's his cheekbones his general presence his weird smooth alien skin and just like but his his undeniable sexual potency >> but but in like a creepy Slimy snake.

[00:50:57]>> Terrifying. But like if he said I'm going to I'm going to eat you after we finish having sex. I'd be like I [ __ ] hope so. That's what I'm I'm counting on it killing.

[00:51:06]>> I wouldn't say I hope so, but I would say I expected you to say that.

[00:51:09]>> Yeah.

[00:51:10]>> Have you seen Red Eye with >> Yeah, I have with Rachel McAdams. He's pretty good in that.

[00:51:14]>> Yeah, that's a >> He's good in that, but also it's like it's so interesting that he starts as a romantic lead charmer and you're like, "Yeah, but like he's a psycho, right?"

[00:51:21]>> Does he? I mean, I think he was at a couple of thing, but he's most >> No, no, I mean in that movie. In that movie, it's like >> Oh, I see. I thought you meant as an actor. Yes. But he's always had that kind of like this guy's gorgeous, but then like he will just one thing will happen and you're like, "Oh, right."

[00:51:37]Like, weirdly, one of the most normal roles he plays is 28 Days Later where you're like, he's actually just a hless dude in this, but then like yes, he's quite an intermission, which is a really great Irish comedy. Uh, but anyway, Kelly Murphy's great. Irish comedy sounds like an oxymoron.

[00:51:53]>> Damn. Damn.

[00:51:55]>> Damn.

[00:51:56]>> Take that >> n is like I want to do comedy.

[00:52:00]>> Have you seen that in >> I have AIDS. Yes. It's pretty good.

[00:52:03]>> That's actually pretty funny.

[00:52:05]>> And then we should get into the butt.

[00:52:06]But basically just like I think the whole middle section is great. I do like watching Batman become Batman. I really enjoy everything about like the whole him becoming the dark knight and everyone starting to realize his potential to make fools of the government and the police force but also to like help the DA's office. The ways in which the the criminal uh gangs are starting to worry uh you know all that stuff's good. And then yes, I agree with you pretty much from when Liam Niss shows back up. I really like their energy. I always, always, always, no matter how much I'm like, it's just a movie. You don't have to be this way. I always knock on, >> oh, Bruce, I need you to meet this man.

[00:52:47]What did you say it is? Razal Ghoul. And then in front of this woman, he goes, you can't be Razal Ghoul. I watched him die. And this woman's like, I'm still right here. Like, I heard that. What a strange thing for Bruce Wayne, the drunk playboy millionaire. I watched him die.

[00:53:06]SHE'D BE LIKE, "WHAT?"

[00:53:09]>> You could argue, you could argue that he's so shocked that he drops the mask of Bruce. Right.

[00:53:13]>> Or it's a stage whisper sort of thing where it's like >> it's an aside.

[00:53:17]>> It's an aside, which but I've always thought it so strange that Nolan was like, "No, no, no. Keep her in the frame for that line." Like, no, leave no doubt that she is right next to him as he says that.

[00:53:29]>> But then he goes, "Or is Razal Ghoul immortal?"

[00:53:32]>> Yes. And you're like, >> "Okay, >> if I had that at a party, I'd be like, "What are you taking? And can I have some?"

[00:53:38]>> Like, >> she's And she disappears with the fake Razel ghoul to do what? Like >> more of those drug >> to trade recipes. Like, what are they going to talk about? And then, yes, they have the whole sequence in the house, which >> it's a good sequence. The house. I love um Christian Bale being like, "All you freeloaders, all you sickopantic, like the way he does that speech, he's >> great drunk acting." Even the way he taps on his glass and he gives it a second look right as he does it. Like wasn't wasn't expecting him to do that.

[00:54:13]It's like that's he's a very talented actor.

[00:54:15]>> Takes a sip, doesn't really drink.

[00:54:17]Classic Bruce move. Yeah.

[00:54:19]>> My goodness, he's good. The arrogance the sip is there to kind of sell like, "No, no, no, I'm an asshole." It's like >> Yeah, you can you can piss off.

[00:54:28]>> And then the same thing we took Harvey Harvey Harvey Dent.

[00:54:31]>> Oh yes.

[00:54:32]>> Very mirroring. This whole the whole trilogy and we'll talk about it. We'll get to Bruce Wayne and I'm sorry we'll get to the butler's pantry soon. This whole trilogy has so many callbacks and through lines and visual symmetry throughout the trilogy. It's so well made. My goodness, it's so parallels. the the den when he falls in the pit. It's exactly the same as the well from the start. Like of course they knew that and they had films to but it's just like it's just nice. You watch them all three together and you're like it works. It's a it's a really strong trilogy.

[00:55:05]>> I probably am going to watch The Dark Knight and the Dark Knight Rises now sometime over the next week because it's >> I'm going to put them on right now.

[00:55:11]>> It's [ __ ] this episode. Let's just start watching the Dark Knight. We should just say very quickly the ending is the ending. I do think pretty much from getting to the narrows, the last really exciting moments in the film for me are I'm sorry uh Gordon, but there's no one left and then just Batman [ __ ] jumping over like in the I love that moment. I think that's incredible. And obviously um uh Crane getting shocked by the taser, even though I'm like that should be disappointing, but he just sells that so well. the scream >> as the the [ __ ] horseman of the apocalypse moment. I think that's really great. Again, I wish there was more of him in the movie because I don't think the film I think the film lacks a compelling central villain >> because even if you want to say, well, it's Liam Niss and I'm like, well, that doesn't that's not that interesting to me, you know, and even even the last fight between them on the train, I'm like, okay, sure. Like, also Batman's in his armored suit and Liam Niss is just in like Liam Niss should be knocked out 5 minutes into that.

[00:56:13]>> Yeah. two minutes into that.

[00:56:14]>> I just I just think by the time they're fighting in that train, I'm like I I have never ever thought this is like a oh my god, this is like the barreling pinnacle moment of the film. I'm always just kind of like the most exciting stuff has happened by this point. Like >> and some of the fighting because I mean it's Liam Niss so at that age he would have been 55.

[00:56:34]>> Sure. He's he's an older guy.

[00:56:35]>> You know the physicality isn't there for a lot of it.

[00:56:38]>> Yeah. I don't know. It's like he's fine.

[00:56:40]It's good. I think it's interesting when the the water pressure guy is like this can't get to Wayne station otherwise city it's like how does that work I know you sort of laid it down saying um Thomas Wayne wide everything to bit that's the central hub of the city but he's watching on this screen and Lucy said this she was like how does he how does he know that it's over >> how does he know that they won the fight like >> because that machine the the train plummets into the building right >> it still makes it pretty to the building.

[00:57:11]>> I think it's it's very kid playing with train set action figure thing where it's just kind of like stop the train.

[00:57:18]Normally in most films, there would be explosives on the train and they'd be destroying the tower. But in this one, it's slightly more complicated.

[00:57:24]>> Or it's um Toy Story 2 or >> Yes. But in this instance, it's a vaporizer and it's the water manes and you're like, it's kind of hard to I I love GARY ALMAN GOING YES when he finally does it. It's Gary Oldman has maybe 17 seconds of screen time in this film and he eats up every one of them.

[00:57:43]He's just so good actually.

[00:57:46]>> And the call back to sorry when he puts his jacket on young Bruce >> his encounter with young Wayne actually is more effective to me than Michael Kane's when he says it's going to be okay and he comforts him. That's the moment that gets me with young Bruce Wayne. I love that moment. It's he's so warm and it's Gary Alman so you're like >> he also has this level of like he doesn't know. He's kind of terrified.

[00:58:06]Like it's it's so nice to see young Gary Oldman and for him to be a nice guy. He doesn't play nice guys that often.

[00:58:12]>> This is truly it where it's like this is him in his serious black misdirect.

[00:58:16]Actually, I'm only kind of a psychopath uh era. But before this, it's like Dracula, Sid Vicious, [ __ ] the the guy with dreadlocks from True Romance and old old mate from Fifth Element where you're just kind of like, "Right, let's never invite that guy around." And in this you're just like >> what a warm presence Jim Gordon is really great >> which is who Gary Oldman is apparently.

[00:58:41]You're like yeah good.

[00:58:43]>> He's great. You you've heard that in the butler's pantry.

[00:58:45]>> Have you heard that direction that Nolan gave him? I really love hearing it. He says that um he he loves directors who trust actors and when they give direction it's a little nudge but it's just enough. And he says he only ever once got a note from Nolan and he said let's take that again. There's more at stake. And was like, "Got it." And I'm like, "That's [ __ ] excellent." Like, I love every part of that. The idea, >> it's so it's just clean direction. It's And it's so trusting of the actors. And it's that when you have a cast like this, you can direct like that.

[00:59:18]>> Yeah.

[00:59:19]>> That's beautiful. It's almost as good as George Lucas.

[00:59:22]>> Uh, yes.

[00:59:22]>> More intense.

[00:59:23]>> Yes, of course.

[00:59:24]>> Hey, more intense, more at stake. Pretty similar.

[00:59:28]Talk about epic trilogies.

[00:59:29]>> You read one book and George, >> I'm only halfway through it. I'm only halfway through it. I read like a page a night and then I'm like, I'm asleep. I'm asleep.

[00:59:37]>> It's a really I be I've got to be rude.

[00:59:39]It's a really boring, slow book. God, I >> It's probably just like And then he played more with his train set and insisted that one day Star Wars would be a reality.

[00:59:49]>> This No, this is what he did a drawing of a Wookie.

[00:59:53]>> Every chapter finishes and they're like, but the question keep kept returning.

[00:59:57]When will you do more Star Wars? Every chapter. And you're like, >> just just talk about it. just get to that chapter already. Okay. Butler's pantry. Butler's pantry.

[01:00:09]>> Butler's pantry.

[01:00:10]>> Yeah. I guess like the thing that this trilogy is defined by is sort of philosophy and morality, right?

[01:00:19]And it's what I think >> we're going deep. We're going deep.

[01:00:22]>> Well, I guess it's just like something that stood out to people about these films that comic books were always dealing with serious issues like this.

[01:00:28]they were just doing it in a form that was seen as juvenile and kind of crude and and you know had had like a a vapidity to it compared with like high art. And so what a lot of comic book nerds of which I was not one but a lot of comic book nerds knew was that there was this really in-depth and kind of sophisticated way of looking at different perspectives. Watchmen is the classic example where that's actually the comic book where people like every one of these, you know, there's a consequentialist here and there's a utilitarian here and there's a deontological sort of perspective here and all this.

[01:00:58]>> There's one guy who's drunk a lot.

[01:01:00]>> Yeah, that's it. The best perspective, you know, >> I get it.

[01:01:04]>> And uh there's a blue guy. So obviously like you know why weren't they called just you know >> they could have been the blue man group.

[01:01:13]I'm just saying. No, >> because there was only there only needs to be one blue man.

[01:01:17]>> He wasn't part of the group really. He left.

[01:01:19]>> No, that's true.

[01:01:19]>> Feels like humans suck.

[01:01:21]>> Yeah. Isn't it crazy that his Willy's just out for the whole movie? It's not the whole movie, I guess.

[01:01:26]>> Good for Billy.

[01:01:26]>> Good for Billy. Absolutely.

[01:01:28]>> Free Billy Crudeup.

[01:01:30]>> Free Free Willie Crude.

[01:01:33]>> Cool. Keep going.

[01:01:34]>> Uh I think that this movie is at its worst when it does that. That's my take that I just don't find those conversations that interesting in this film and it takes the dark knight to get a character who's like it sums it up perfectly with Ledger's I'm a dog chasing a car I wouldn't know what to do with it if I got it where it's like right he's like a nihilist or he's an absurdist or he's whatever he's dismissive of the whole framework he is amoral he is not moral or immoral and I think when people are trying to v for this is what's right in Gotham no this is what's right. You know, obviously there's I shouldn't say obviously. I know very little about this, so bear with me. And anyone who's listening who actually knows [ __ ] about philosophy, I'm [ __ ] sorry. But like when >> or comics >> or comic books cuz I know nothing.

[01:02:22]>> But go on, keep continue.

[01:02:23]>> But Razal Ghoul at the beginning and Niam Niss's like the will the will to act is more important than training, which sounds a lot like the will to power, which is a very like nichin concept. this idea of all we have is what we embrace and how we try and bring ourselves to the power of it, right? And it's a very like kind of nebulously defined term, but he seems to be suggesting that like you become the highest man, the highest form of something by by embracing that. Of course, looking at Batman as some version of like an uber mench or the highest man is also there. And then you literally have Dr. Crane say, well, you know, these developers Yungian ideals or Yungian archetypes, you know, when he's talking about the scarecrow. So like KL Jung is in there as well. Ideas about dreams, about the shadow self, the hero, the persona, all this stuff is in there.

[01:03:09]I find it so uninteresting when people have conversations about it. And I really prefer it when these movies are either set pieces that manage to express it through the elegance of their action or character details that get at it.

[01:03:22]It's why The Dark Knight's the best version because the Joker retelling the story of how he got his scars and refusing to own up to a a distinct or a single version of his identity in his past is the most interesting philosophical expression of that character's chaos. And in this, I just think people are always too busy going, "Why bats, Master Wayne?" "Well, you see, Alfred," I'm like, "I [ __ ] get it. Bats frighten him." And like, so of course, he's embracing fe. Please don't explain this to me. like and I'm and if people go, "Oh, that doesn't bother me."

[01:03:55]That's the sort of stuff where I'm just like, "Cut all of it out of the movie, please." It just it really it it knocks against me when I hear it. And so it's >> I see Yeah, I see a point. I don't It didn't bother me. It I do find it a bit of a waste of time.

[01:04:10]>> Yeah.

[01:04:11]>> But I don't mind it.

[01:04:13]>> It's It's not a short movie, right? Like it's 2 hours 10. I want No, 220, right?

[01:04:18]2 220 with credits and I think it could be a tighter 2-hour movie. I think there is a way of making this movie >> and get rid of the Rachel stuff.

[01:04:25]>> I mean truly or just like less discursive about like what is justice, what is not justice, right? Like what is fear and how how do we decide what is the right thing to do under the circumstances? all stuff that I'm just like I don't think this movie if it if it doesn't have a handle on it maybe that's not appropriate to say but it just doesn't have an interesting vantage on it that I I'm not compelled by that I am much more compelled >> or it doesn't trust that you know so Rachel lays out what justice is at the start basically which is like you can't kill him that's not justice and then he's like wait she's right and then he carries that through and then brings it up again when Razal G's like kill this farmer >> you you just don't need that bit right like you could cut that section where he's like I won't do it I be part of the League of Shadows and then I'm going to burn your house down. Cool. Great. Move along.

[01:05:12]>> You could cut this. I agree with that entirely. You could cut the section where Bruce is talking about like his experiences abroad and he's like, "The first time I stole not to starve, I really got a new sense of morality." I'm like, "Are you 12?" Like that you think no one has stolen to prevent themselves from starving before. That's >> You think people are stealing just because they're criminals and they're No. Yeah. It's it's really >> most crime comes from desperation.

[01:05:38]>> It's such a strange moment that I'm I really was taken back by like that's this is from the intellectual guy Nolan.

[01:05:46]And this is the thing that I think sometimes critics of Nolan of which I'm really not one. I really pretty much like to love all his movies. But critics of him are like he has a a intellectual cur an an intellectual curiosity that sometimes he either chooses to simplify or he chooses to sort of like just dabble in a little but not enough to actually provide much in his dialogue especially and in his character encounters without providing much depth.

[01:06:15]His formalism is what's the most sophisticated thing. The thing you you and I were talking about the other day that you hinted at was apart from the Batman movies, what is Nolan's defining thing? He takes the temporalities of movies, he takes their form, he takes their structure, and he [ __ ] with them.

[01:06:30]He twists them in a way where you're like, I haven't seen a story play out this way before. Even if the archetypes are very familiar and the beats are kind of, you know, they they have a sort of resonance with past narratives, this actually is the weirdest way to tell a space voyaging story, to tell a dream escape story, to tell a story of memory and a guy hunting looking for vengeance, to tell a story about time, and even Oppenheimer to tell a story about war and personal vendettas and inner demons and and even like a political story.

[01:06:58]It's really interesting how he does that. And I think the Batman movies are really really quite good and the Dark Knight is fuckingastic, but I don't think they're particularly deep if that makes sense.

[01:07:13]>> That does make sense. I think that's a pretty good pantry actually from you.

[01:07:15]Well done.

[01:07:16]>> Appreciate that. Not that they need to be deep. I know there are people who like >> this is going to be my next point of view.

[01:07:20]>> I had fun and I Your point was trying to make them maybe deeper than they need to be or like talk about how deep they are because they can be deep without it being spoken about.

[01:07:29]>> Yes. And they would be almost more so if you didn't.

[01:07:32]>> Yeah.

[01:07:33]>> All right. We'll quickly move on to MVP.

[01:07:35]Thomas, >> you go. You tell me who's your MVP.

[01:07:39]>> MVP.

[01:07:42]>> Christian B. That's so boring. That's so boring. I don't know.

[01:07:45]>> He's good in it. He's >> I love him in this and I love Christian Bal. We'll talk about it next week, but like >> No, I think Gary Oldman. Gary Oldman.

[01:07:54]>> That's a that's a take because he is really not in it. And yet I I I don't question it. I think he is very good in it.

[01:08:01]>> I love him. I love him. I know who you're going to say.

[01:08:03]>> Killian Murphy 100%.

[01:08:05]>> Katie. Oh, Killian Murphy.

[01:08:06]>> Oh, yeah. Sorry. Katie Holmes. Very close second. Killian Murphy >> group >> is >> Killian Murphy is so exciting. It's such a vibrant present and he was the right choice. That's the one thing I guess I I will concede. If he had been in the main villain in this, you couldn't have had him pop up in the second and third one.

[01:08:25]But he and he's so good in >> No, he's not. I I don't I hate his cameos in the second and third.

[01:08:32]>> Disre what's the point of him being there?

[01:08:36]>> So funny in the second and third ones.

[01:08:39]>> But he's so different. It doesn't make any sense.

[01:08:41]>> He's gone insane. He's crazy now.

[01:08:44]>> But has he? But has he?

[01:08:46]>> I he doesn't he doesn't act insane. He doesn't feel it feels >> his third him in the third movie is just ex the second movie. It really is just a cameo, but it is kind of funny and like his not my diagnosis or whatever. But in the third one where he's making the rulings of death or exile and he's like fine, exile >> by death or death by exile or whatever.

[01:09:07]Like he switches. It's pretty much the Jeff Goldblum line. Death by exile, right? You know, uh it's so good.

[01:09:14]>> I pardon you from life.

[01:09:15]>> From life. It's he's so funny. Uh I love Killian Murphy. I think I think he really is one of the highlights across the series for me. It's so so interesting to me that you don't like him in the second and third one. I like him a lot.

[01:09:27]>> Yeah. Not a lot. I think he's fantastic in this one. But yeah, Gary Oldman's elite. So I mean >> Christian Bale though >> is very good.

[01:09:35]>> You need We need to sing his praises in this. He's very good and did something really powerful and interesting and creative and grounded strangely as Batman. What a guy.

[01:09:46]>> I think you're I think you're right. He is so he feels real and it's it's kind of remarkable that that could ever be possible and now it feels like what everyone aims for and very few people manage it. It's it's hard to replicate.

[01:09:58]I think Robert Patson does a pretty good job of it.

[01:10:00]>> Jared Leto is close as his joker as well. Like there's there's people who have you know >> obviously >> knocked against it as you >> I thought you were just going to say MorbiiUs was the the best example >> time.

[01:10:10]>> Uh all right. So is anyone going to throw anything in?

[01:10:13]>> Yeah, I will. Do we not do I know he's not here and we we miss him dearly. We we don't like recast. Not not a thought to that. It's okay if you don't have any.

[01:10:22]>> Yeah, actually I do have one. If I was going to recast, I'd get rid of Katie Holmes and I'd put in Maggie Gyllenhaal.

[01:10:26]You know what? That's a good idea from me >> from the get-go. Just have Maggie be the the character across the >> like I don't you're not going to recast this movie. I I I It's disrespectful to say.

[01:10:37]>> It is a really tricky one to pull. I think that there's a world in which if Nolan got the choice again, he would cast Ken Watonavi as the real Razal Ghoul and he would have another actor play the fake Razal Ghoul and he would just have that be the way even though people seem to love Nissan as Razal Gul.

[01:10:56]I think he's good. He's not the one I think about in these movies really like he's and they bring his character back briefly for the third one I'm always just kind of like oh yeah that's right.

[01:11:05]Yeah.

[01:11:08]>> Okay, that's recast then.

[01:11:11]I'll I'll throw in I think you've done a really good job of capturing and communicating how this is a thrilling example of of the fact that these movies can just be fun and can be like so full of potential when so often comic book movies now and even at the time were a bit drab. I'd go like a 7.6. I think this is I think this is a lot more fun than than >> 7.1 to 7.6 if I remember.

[01:11:39]Take the win, man. Take the [ __ ] win.

[01:11:41]>> Sorry. Yeah, >> there it is. That's huge. That's great.

[01:11:45]I did win.

[01:11:46]>> You did.

[01:11:46]>> Thank you, pal. Um, I mean, I'll stay on a 9.5. I had a wonderful time.

[01:11:52]>> I'm just going to quickly do this.

[01:11:56]>> The weirdest and then we're going to >> The weirdest thing I discovered when I thought back to Batman, the Tim Burton one, and this one, I'm like, I guess I prefer the Tim Burton one, which feels wrong, but it's just a little true. I do really.

[01:12:09]>> Yeah. Which feels weird, but I I was surprised at how much that movie worked for me when we watched it last year. I love Nicholson.

[01:12:15]>> Anyway, thanks.

[01:12:16]>> I mean, this is the the best Batman trilogy by far.

[01:12:19]>> That's just my opinion, man.

[01:12:23]>> Just a disclaimer, right?

[01:12:25]>> Yes.

[01:12:26]>> Thanks for listening to Throwing the Power. My name is Frank.

[01:12:28]>> My name is Tom.

[01:12:29]>> And that was Batman Begins. Make sure you uh like and subscribe. And please send us a DM on throwinthep or [email protected]. Send us an email.

[01:12:37]Tell us who's your favorite Batman. I don't know. Tell us what what Thomas uh smoking through the