Jonathan Pageau: The Prophet of Verticality

追加: 2026-05-09

[00:00:00]Hi, this is Paul and just about anybody who sees this will know who I'm talking to today. And um Jonathan, how are you >> doing? Well, it's good to see you. It's been a while. It feels like it it always feel like wait, it's been too long. It's really odd how this how this works.

[00:00:16]>> Yeah, you we're we're both busy. We're both busy. Um and uh it it I have to Somebody said you got to send John Vervia a note and talk to him again because I haven't spoken with John. I haven't really No. And I haven't spoken with either of you since uh Midwest Juwer. What did you think of Midwest Juuary?

[00:00:34]>> I enjoyed it. You know, I I I would say it's all it's all great people. You know, I felt like uh the conversations were interesting, provoking. Yeah, I did I did enjoy it. You know, I think that to me, I've said it before, as I think that mean as long as as long as the the as long as these things they know what they are, like the estuary I think the estuary framing is the best framing. uh and as long as people see it as a kind of place of of encounter and mixture and uh that's the way to go. Obviously, if people try to replace church with that, then they're going to be I think they're going to be disappointed. But I don't that's not the purpose of it. So, you know, I think if people are trying to do that, then it's it's on them, you know.

[00:01:17]Uh but I I I I enjoyed it. It was fun.

[00:01:20]>> Good. Good. I have I've got a bunch of questions for you and I don't know if you have any questions for me, but I'm going to be um I'm going to be selfish and start with my questions for you. I um your conver cuz last time I saw Jordan Hall in person, he told me that what he wanted to do and I was so glad to see that he pulled it off and got you guys there because I you know you're you know every time and just generally speaking it's been interesting watching your interactions with um let's see who did you who did you talk to with Oh Joe Foley.

[00:01:56]>> Yeah.

[00:01:56]>> Um with Justin Bryland. Joe Foley, I'm going to I'm going to meet him in England when we go cuz the weekend before um Ark, we've got an event in London. So, and I think Joe Foley and Nathan Jacobs and I >> Nathan Jacobs, that's so cool.

[00:02:10]>> Yeah. Yeah. So, we're going to we're going to do that. Um well, how how did that I I was so happy to see Jordan's plan of you guys just spending time together because to me that's so much of what goes into a conversation. Yeah, that was I mean it was really amazing.

[00:02:28]Jordan Hall is like a he's just always a surprise. So I didn't even know that he knew Brett and then he was like, "Yeah, I've known Brad since like 2008."

[00:02:38]Like what? And so he just has all these secrets, you know, and he just he just pops he just pulls them out whenever it's relevant, you know? He doesn't feel the need to tell you, but he's like, "If it's relevant, I'll just say it, you know." So um so he's like, "Yeah, why don't you come to my house and spend several days with Brett?" And uh it was great. You know, Brad is just such a kind and uh he's very he's very honest.

[00:03:01]Like he does he's not playing games.

[00:03:02]He's not duplicitous. You know, I think that I think that he has his perspective, right? And and he kind of is he's in his perspective, but he's not he's not dishonest. And so it was uh it was a lot of fun. And I think we, you know, we kind of hash, we went, we would just talk for like three days >> just like just talking and talking talking and trying to go through, you know, he has materialist um presuppositions. And so, you know, for example, we really tried hard to break his idea of supernatural.

[00:03:31]>> You know, this idea that, you know, God is supernatural, but in a almost like an arbitrary way. You know what I'm talking about? where it's like here's the world and then there's this layer on top of the world and God would be there and then God is not of this world and is acting in the world breaking the rules of this world as he's doing that doing that and I'm like well that's not just not how it is it's just not how it works so trying to get him to say like no you know the world is in God and God is present in all things and yes God transcends the world but God is present all through the world and so it was like he these were not the categories not the categories that he's used to dealing with and so uh uh you know I mean and he was really trying to really understand and I think he has a great humility in that he really respects and loves Jordan Hall and I think Jordan's conversion was a surprise it was like okay this guy who is clearly a genius uh you know why is he converting to Christianity and so all of that was kind of on the table but it was it was we had a we had a great time it was wonderful >> yeah one of the interesting things and I just thought of this as you were talking.

[00:04:40]I I've you know I obviously don't know Jordan Peterson anywhere near to the level that you have but I have had some private interactions with him. The couple of times he came to Sacramento he um he he he gave me tickets. I met him backstage and I always he always sent me two tickets. So I always brought someone my my wife doesn't always want to follow me around on these things. So I always brought someone who would really wanted to go and really wanted to meet him. And it's interesting how part of differences on the internet we could talk about YouTube where people watch YouTube for sort of validation vindication or to hate watch.

[00:05:23]>> Yeah. And it's interesting to me how so often with Jordan and with Brett, we get people just look at them and say they're dishonest. But I agree with you that the the times that I've met Jordan privately from what I've seen with him on YouTube and also I' I've never really met Brett privately, but my sense is that these are honest individuals and they will tell you what they think. Why do you think there is sort of this instinctive projection of lying on people who let's say are >> what have what has Jordan what have Jordan and Brett sort of done the same that would deserve this tag from people?

[00:06:11]>> I think that I mean there's definitely people who as soon as they see that you profit from something then they think it's a griff. you see that this is the common accusation oddly it always goes against the people that you disagree with are always the grifters and the people you agree with are not grifters right that's the one of the problems and so I think there's definitely some aspect of that uh which is which is happening I think that also because they engage in the culture war let's say more than I do then they also attract the hate watching you I don't have a lot of hate watching on my channel also because it's just hard to understand what I'm saying and then Second of all, I don't I don't hit those beats, right? I don't I don't Once in a while I make videos that are culturally relevant, but it's not the not the same. So I think that's probably what what's going on is that you know when people especially I think a lot of people that feel betrayed I think this is something that happened both with Jordan and Brett which is that some people have certain ways of thinking and then when all of a sudden the person that you kind of admire >> suddenly doesn't go in the direction uh that you're going then all of a sudden you're like well you're dishonest you're a liar you're you're you're this you're acting for profit and I think that's something that happened definitely with Jordan and Brett actually on opposite sides, interestingly enough, which is that on the Israel question, you could say Brett and Jordan fall on different sides at this point, and people are accusing them of being dishonest or grifters or uh on both sides on that of that question. That's actually an interesting example where you see that people did that.

[00:07:43]>> I remember with Jordan at the outset, you know, when he came out, he was he was kind of on one side of the COVID question and people were angry and then ultimately he kind of he actually changed his mind. he changed his position on COVID. So, I think that's what's going on because honestly, you know, I disagree with Jordan on certain things. Uh I mean, I think in particular, I think in part the Israel story, I don't agree with with his with his positions. Um but I definitely don't think he's dishonest. I think that he really just believes what he believes.

[00:08:11]And sometimes, you know, we we all have silos sometimes that we fall into. And you know, it's easy it's always easy to see the silo of our enemies or not our enemies, but like the people in front of us. Uh but we always have to be attentive to our own our own silos too, you know.

[00:08:26]>> Yeah.

[00:08:29]One of the things that struck me, so I I I made a video yesterday. Um, I'm gonna I'm going to really dive into the conversation of you and Brett and Jordan, partly because it was in some ways a revisiting of a lot of the issues that Jordan really paid a lot of attention to, especially before his first absence from illness when he was much more focused on maps of meaning, meaning crisis before he sort have spent more and more time doing political things with Daily Wire. Um, what is it about and and I I was really appreciated both in one of the comments that you made, I think it was to Jay Dyer and then what you said right now about Brett. Both of these men are honest and they are going to tell you what they do and don't believe. But I think part of this dynamic I note I picked up somewhere recently when I was I was reading that in the transition from the 3rd to the 4th century when you have sort of the death of paganism and the rise of of Christendom and the Roman Empire, it's it's almost always in some ways the elites with all of their sunk cost and a particular worldview that are sort of the last to move.

[00:09:51]And and so I think, you know, part of what we're seeing, even though both Brett, but especially Jordan was sort of I liked how you talked about him as sort of a hinge figure, they they were sort of a a stepping stone into a major transformation of worldview that they themselves, you know, they're almost Moses in that sense that they can't they can't go into that's right. They can't make it in.

[00:10:19]What what are you what are your thoughts on that?

[00:10:21]>> I think that that's abs I think that that's true. You know, obviously I think for the sake of their own souls, I hope that they do, you know, make that transition. Uh especially Jordan at this point, I do believe that there are there's some aspects of what he's going through that is that are related to that. Uh that he in some ways has to submit to God ultimately. I think this is what at least an aspect of what it is that's happening. Um, and so I I I do think that it's true. And it's a it's an interesting thing because there are grifters. Like there are people out there in the social influence sphere that I think are grifters. People that, you know, I mean, I think let's I mean, Destiny is an example that clearly is like a, you know, he just kind of plays along and does whatever. And there are people like that that are that are that are I think are are grifter types. But uh in their case, even in the IDW, there are a few people that at this point I think are not being honest like that that they that they're hiding their intentions and they're doing that. And I think that that's but I don't I definitely have not I don't detect that in either Brett or Jordan. I don't think they're you know they just say what they think. Uh and sometimes you can disagree with them, but they they're not like that's my that's my take on it. Why why do you think a worldview transformation for both of them is so difficult?

[00:11:42]Well, because you have to let go of the one that you had before, right? You have to you have to let go of the some of of the calculations that you were making.

[00:11:52]And so, you know, this is something that people don't realize. It's kind it's really painful. You know when you know when Jordan's speaking and he just like pauses and he like stops and what he's doing part of what he's doing is that he's doing all the calculations that is that he's he's basically working from the ground up to make sure that the next thing he says is coherent with this groundup type of vision right does it work on a biological level does it work at an evolutionary level does it work at this level at this right and so and then he'll end up saying something which is literally just like a Bible verse like quote from the Bible and everybody and I remember at the last arc there was something of that going on where he would he would be like he would be like thinking and thinking and then he would say you know something like the love of God you know holds the world together and he's doing this work inside his head it looks really hard to say and it's like this painful thing that he's saying then when he says it it's like okay like what [laughter] so and so I think that that's the thing that's the thing that's going on and so once you make the switch like once you have a kind of vertical a sense the vertical causality you have a sense of uh you know you know of this idea of a transcendent good that is drawing the world into it you know just that kind of move towards a more traditional Christian worldview then you don't need that other stuff as much you just don't you just don't you don't you don't have to make those calculations you don't you don't have to know how it works down here you know I mean it's fun to know it but if you don't have to know it you just have to kind of see that vertical cause you know that's why when you read medieval thinkers it's so funny They they don't talk they don't care about like the mechanical causes.

[00:13:29]They'll just say, "Yeah, you know, they'll talk about demons and talk about succubi and incubi and then they'll they won't explain to you how it how it happens because they're not interested in that. They just know that it's true because they can see the they can see the meaning uh influence." So, I think that's it. So, I think that, you know, both Jordan and Brett really hold are are are in some ways materialist, you know.

[00:13:52]>> [snorts] >> Do you think that's why it's um so difficult for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven?

[00:13:58]>> Yeah, possibly. I mean, it's it's pro possibly related to it because you you you see value from the ground up. You think that this power the power that this offers which is real power, right?

[00:14:11]The power of of of predictable causes and multiplicity and all of this is very powerful. Uh and so it's it's easy, you know, it's hard to give up. Yeah. And it's why the poor who have so little to lose, they they fly right in.

[00:14:28]>> Yeah. Well, the thing is that poor the poor poor people experience vertical causality all the time.

[00:14:33]>> Yeah.

[00:14:33]>> Like you know when they re when someone gives you when you give money to a poor person, you are exemplifying that, right? You are some ways exemplifying God's grace in a very small way, but you're in some ways saying, you know, this is not totally connected to what you do, right? what you do is important but it's it's not just it's not just what you do that will generate what comes from heaven what comes from heaven actually is be comes before so I think that that that's why the poor person will have has miracles you know when you're poor you experience miracles you know I' I know that I have I am now we're comfortable you know with everything that for the 10 years of doing this and I have very few I have fewer miracles in my life than I did let's say 10 years ago that's for sure >> yeah well I want to there's There's something interesting about you, Jonathan, because you are um in some ways the prophet of verticality.

[00:15:26]And part of what I see happening in the world right now with this change that's going on is that uh vocations just about as with just about everything else, vocations are disrupted. And what's really fun, I mean, I'm it would be a really fun project would be to go through the last 10 years of interviews with you and watch people try to introduce you and watch them try to describe who you vocation, who you are and what you do.

[00:16:01]And >> it's averse pleasure that I have. I have to confess it right now. [laughter] I actually really enjoy watching people squirm on what it is that I do. It's like I I just I don't know why I find it pleasurable because it's like it's just, you know, people are like, "Well, because if they just say the icon carving thing, people do that and then immediately after you say that, you're like, well, then why is he here?" Cuz really, there's no reason. If that's what he does, then he's And if he's just a YouTuber, then why is he at this university speaking, right? And so it's I just I actually kind of enjoy it. I don't I sadly I don't give people a lot of good solutions to to how to describe what I do.

[00:16:38]>> So what is your vocation?

[00:16:42]>> I mean I think that the what I'm I think that if you could reduce it to one thing I think it's trying to help people see that the kingdom of heaven is not arbitrary, right? That the kingdom of heaven flows from creation, right? and the logos reveals himself in creation. I think that that's maybe that's what I'm hoping to do and that that's beautiful and it's exciting and once you see it, it it it hopefully it increases your desire to be in communion with God and your and your your capacity to see God in the world, right? To not feel disconnected and not feel alone. And so I think that that's but then ultimately that does mean that I've always you know my both my brother and I we've always this is for a long time we always had this weird intuition that we would participate in a change of world view >> uh and we play some role in it like I don't know we didn't know what we didn't know how much but for sure we had this sense that this was inevitable that this kind of had to happen if we want people to be able to turn back you know towards the light And so yeah, so I think that we that I I feel like I played my little part in that, but it's like obviously you can, you know, it's like it's like a miracle, right? So you as soon as you start to play your part, you realize that everybody's kind of being coordinated into the symphony, right? So it's not just you. It's not at all. It's almost like it's actually God acting and you're one of the >> one of the pawns that he's moving on the board. And of course, your will is part of that, but it it ends up being like this symphonic thing. So I think that you know the idea of like as soon as we started to step out on the scene that there were all these other people kind of arriving at the same time was to me it's like that's actually a beautiful image of how God God works in the world.

[00:18:27]>> Tell me a little bit about your ages and your life circumstances when you and your brother were sort of shopping this stuff. Where was that in terms of your I mean was that after art school? Was it during? Was it before?

[00:18:40]>> It was after art school. It was it was like early 20s I would say uh 23 24 25 around there and he's a year and a half younger than I am and so you know we had been talking a lot in when I was in art school we were both talk we were both reading a lot obviously and that's when we did a lot of large part of our reading and we were we were just talking about this stuff not it wasn't yet talking about symbolism but just I mean talk about meaning how it connects you know how what where are these solutions to some of the problems that we were seeing. Um, [snorts] and then and then in our early 20s, that's really when Matier read Gin for the first time and he just like he said, "Hey, read this." and it was uh crisis of the modern world and uh yeah I read that and then it just changed my world view pretty much immediately >> and I kind of then then it gave uh like it's because the thing about ch that's why if you realize the things a lot of things that I do it's I'm I'm often trying to just cause that like that's what it's not about explaining it's like can I get you your light the lights to go on right you can get the lights to go on then the rest will take care of itself right you know the work will will you might go crazy for a little while like just for hopefully not for too long but then the lights will kind of go on and so that's kind of happened to us and then after that you know it was just fleshing it out you know reading you know and he read like I said he was reading a lot of rabbitical stuff um and I was reading uh church fathers more and just kind of trading notes and talking and so yeah >> were you were you both living at home or were you living close to each other was this in person or >> it was a mix I mean at first it was we were living close to each other he was still at my parents parents house and I was living in the city. So it was like, you know, we lived 20 minutes away from each other. And so we would meet, you know, every week, every two weeks, and we would we would we would talk it out.

[00:20:30]And then after that, it was a lot of email >> and we I have like I have thousands of pages like email correspondences. I keep telling Matthew I'm like because the thing with Mu is like me. He's like once I've said something, he doesn't want to say it again. Almost as if he'd said it even if he said it in private. And so I'm like we should just publish your emails. was like, "Let's just publish your email." Then he's like, "Yeah, you know, I'm doing something else right now."

[00:20:54]>> You you did a you did an interview in French um with Does he does he he knows English, right? I'm s I sort of want to get him on the channel. I want I have someone I want to pair him with. You did an interview um on the on the Quiet Revolution in Quebec.

[00:21:11]>> Francis Dennis Francis.

[00:21:13]>> Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You should definitely interview. He's a very interesting very interesting person.

[00:21:17]>> All right. I I'll get your I'll get his email from you. Um, >> when I look at when I look at what little I understand about what happened in Quebec, when I look at your family story and you know, I almost see and that it's you and your brother. I mean, obviously we as as North Americans, we we are we are ardent individualists, but you and your brother, your stories are deeply connected with your family story, with the story of the place that you're located with Quebec. Um, how would you put what you and your brother passed through within the story of the strange story of Quebec that at one point was sort of, you know, hyper, you know, hyper Catholic in a certain way. We are we are true France because we are not France.

[00:22:18]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:22:19]>> And then that provokes, you know, this strange transformation that happens.

[00:22:24]>> Yeah.

[00:22:26]It's re it's actually very fascinating and this is kind of inside baseball but um so 20 years ago or maybe a bit more than 20 years ago at this point you know uh there was no hint of any of this like in Quebec there was no hint of verticality no you know like what do you call conservative or just kind of a looking back and trying to reintegrate let's say the story and everything and um and back in the day My I was just leaving for Africa and my brother and some other people were part of a reading group. It was like the first kind of reading group at the time and uh and I was supposed to be in that. Sadly I left but then later I found out that the some of the people in that reading group, one of them in particular has now become the main voice for any type of conservatives conservativism in in Quebec. Uh and I had never met him until last year. I I went and had uh had lunch with him. His name is Matsu Bakouti. Uh people don't know about him in the United States.

[00:23:28]Very much focused on Quebec and everything. Um, and so it's just wild to realize that like we had this weird thing at the very outset, you know, and that so I do hope I mean I I hope that I don't know how it's going to how to do it, but for sure one of the things we decided both JP and I is that we're not we're being careful not to be involved in American politics because it's so easy to just talk about American politics all the time. And so we've actually decided that whatever kind of political stuff we do, we're actually going to do on the French podcast. And so actually our French podcasts are becoming more political uh not in an ideological way but in right in the way that we're doing universal history in the way that we're trying to kind of ground people back and remember their their their origins and kind of remember their story. So uh so we'll see how that happens. It might make we might make us a lot of enemies. So I'm like going on podcasts and stuff in French and saying things that French Canadians are not used to hearing. So this will be interesting to see. But I definitely see that I do hope that Quebec will have a kind of awakening, I guess you could call it, you know. Now, the thing about French Canadians is that, you know, they're like a they're like a pack, you know, and uh they they they're like a flock. And so they just kind of follow. And so when when when it was Catholic, they were Catholic, man. They were so Catholic and they just kind of followed. And then all of a sudden they just altogether flip and then they become secular.

[00:24:57]>> Yeah.

[00:24:58]>> And then they're super secular. But the thing is that it might also go back and then when it does it's going to be all of them at the same time. So So it's weird because you think there's no hope because this is one of the most secular places in the world. But you also realize that that's not how a seed functions, right? That's not how you know when the tree appears out of the ground. The work has all been done under underground. And then, you know, once it once it pops out, when the flower pops out, then it's there it is. And so that's my hope for Quebec is that at some point uh people will realize that they've been duped, right? That they've been tricked, that a lot of the stuff that they were told was true and was good for them is actually, you know, making them miserable.

[00:25:39]>> What's what's your sense of um if you had to put a hund one to a hundred, where where's the meaning crisis in Quebec? Oh man. I mean I would say that it's at this point it's still getting worse for sure. And you know and it's also part of you know one of the things that happened everybody's probably noticing it is that you know your your president uh it's not his fault like it is his fault to some extent but it's our I mean we should take the responsibility on us is that in some ways because Canada is basically not America and it's been that way now for many generations that Canada is almost like an arrangement right it's not a it doesn't have an origin like when's the origin of Canada it doesn't have a it doesn't have a moment that you can point to that assembles people together and says like no we have the constitution but the founding of the constitution but nobody knows anything about the Canadian constitution America because it has this foundation moment and these foundation characters right and so Canada is in some ways not America and so now that Trump said we want to assimilate you then we said well we're not America and therefore a lot of the things that felt like they were going away like like the woke folk stuff and and the the censorship stuff and all of that is now back on track here in Canada, right?

[00:27:01]They're they're passing this law uh that is is a is a internet censorship law that you know is going to increase the hate the hate uh category in terms of online behavior and stuff.

[00:27:15]Um and so and and and and the people from Quebec, the BLUA are insisting that there be no religious exemption.

[00:27:24]So you know what that means, right?

[00:27:25]Yeah. Exactly. Means exactly what you think it means. And so we are in some ways going worse. We're going in a worse direction on all those fronts. Um >> you know, and so uh and so we'll see.

[00:27:37]You know, it feels like at some point we'll turn. There's no at least some people will turn. or at least a group will turn. There are hints like our parish is growing. There are more adult baptisms in the Catholic Church than there has been in decades in uh in Quebec, you know, and I think it's the same even with the Protestant churches like young people are kind of going back. And so I think that if it's not happening as much as in the US, but it's definitely uh there's definitely a little seed that is there. And so we'll see how the seed grows um and if persecution uh makes it, you know, snuffs it out or rather encourages it.

[00:28:15]So we'll see. Do you have any thoughts on parallels, let's say, between Quebec and Ireland? Because both of them are sort of I mean the Irish and their relationship with the English is a long and tortured history. And um of course Quebec is sort of the remnants of the of the French colony that the French traded for a little island in the Caribbean, gave it to the Brits. Um and and to what degree is is their history because both of both Ireland and Quebec were so fervently Catholic.

[00:28:51]>> Yeah.

[00:28:51]>> And then it just collapsed.

[00:28:54]>> No, that's right. I mean that's definitely that's definitely what happened here. Um, and in some ways there might be that I mean a kind of a way of thinking about it is that you know when you when when things start to get worse right or when not when things start to get worse but when you start to see the signs of decay you know one of the things you want to do and it's natural to want to do that is to increase the measures by which you would prevent that decay from coming in.

[00:29:21]So you actually build you know you make the wall bigger right you're like oh here's this chaos coming. So you're like, "No, let's make the wall bigger.

[00:29:27]Let's be more Catholic." Like, "Let's be super duper Catholic, you know, and then let's let's make Catholic integrated in everything, make it make it very powerful." And so that is possibly what happened. And so, but then, you know, when the dam breaks and everything happens very quickly, whereas it feels like in the more Protestant world, the secularization happened over little waves, like little waves of secularization that in some ways people could even almost ignore.

[00:29:53]It's as if this more it's more insidious, right? It's like it just keeps rolling and rolling and you're like you're just kind of going along.

[00:29:58]You don't realize. Whereas in in some of the Catholic places, at least for sure in Quebec, uh it was it was like a violent clash, you know. Um and um and so and but what's interesting about Quebec is that in France there's definitely a Catholic resistance. Like there is the Kau, right? It's a real thing in France. And and they have a kind of strength and a kind of organic uh reality to them. Uh whereas in Quebec we don't really have that >> leave if it exists it's very well hidden. I haven't seen many traces of it. So uh so uh so that's a that's definitely an odd thing. Hopefully I mean I don't know how but like here in my my town like my there's a little Catholic parish here and uh a friend of ours who was quite secular, you know, returned to the church and was was received is beautiful actually and he says it's yeah it's full of full of people now.

[00:30:50]>> So you know I've got a I've I've got a thesis about the Orthodox moment in America.

[00:31:00]Um, were you at all familiar Oh gosh, you're younger than I am. Were you at all familiar with the emerging church movement?

[00:31:07]>> Uh, I mean, I know the name. I don't know the history. Like, I've heard that before, but I don't totally >> Okay. Did you know who Rachel Held Evans was? Um, >> okay.

[00:31:18]So you had the seeker movement which was basically so uh Willow Creek Saddleback.

[00:31:25]These are um >> I know more about that. I know more about the seeker movement.

[00:31:29]>> Okay. Well, what's your experience with the seeker movement?

[00:31:31]>> I mean what's his name? I forget his name. The pastor the one >> Bill Hibles.

[00:31:36]>> Yeah, that's right. All right. So I mean I kind of know about that a little bit.

[00:31:40]I mean they were big like there was it would they had a lot of influence but I don't know >> I don't know enough for sure.

[00:31:46]>> When were you in art school?

[00:31:48]Uh like um late 90s.

[00:31:51]>> Late 90s. Okay. Um what were you doing what were you doing church-wise when you were in art school?

[00:31:58]>> I mean it was just going to my B I was in the Baptist church.

[00:32:02]>> Okay. And what were they doing liturggically?

[00:32:05]Um, we didn't I mean it was anti- liturggical as much as [laughter] pos we didn't like you know I forget the one time that they forgot a cross after the Easter service and then it stayed there for a few weeks and people started getting really nervous so they took it off you know [laughter] how like anti- liturggical you know we were >> what kind of music did they play was it was it organic it was like it was like band you know like there was a there was bass it went from when I was young it was just a piano and then it then it became the band like the just basic band. Okay.

[00:32:39]>> And they would play they had like a piano, guitar and drums and I don't remember if they had drums. I don't remember. Maybe not.

[00:32:46]>> So when you were growing up did you grow up through some of that transition?

[00:32:49]>> Oh yeah for sure. Yeah for sure. Like when I was young, they had this they had put together this like really himnil like this like French himnil and it was it was really actually they did a amazing work trying to gather uh Protestant French hymns you know and then find old translations of some of the German or some of the English hymns.

[00:33:12]uh and they had done a really great work in creating this himnil and uh and then when I was um getting older obviously then you moved to PowerPoint and to the projections and then started changing the songs because then you you could right because before you had the himnil right you you couldn't be giving out handouts you know at at uh at every on every Sunday. So then it the the song started to change and I kind of saw that at the end of the time that I was in the in those churches where there was more of there was these things coming in from uh from the US these American songs that are being kind of translated into uh into French >> and it was it was not yet like the >> was that Australian church that was really popular.

[00:33:51]>> Oh, Hill Song.

[00:33:52]>> Yeah, it was a little bit before Hill Song but then it was then I saw that happen too after I became Orthodox. saw the kind of hills hill song invasion and these you know these kind of repetitive songs that people uh sing. So they don't really have a liturgical theory. It's just basically just I don't know like just do things.

[00:34:09]>> They don't have theory but they do have a liturgy.

[00:34:11]>> Yeah they have a liturgy but the liturgy is just like you know what it is. It's like it's like announcements announcements songs uh a sermon and one last song right that's the liturgy.

[00:34:24]>> What what did they do with communion? I was like once a month with with with a lot of don't think this is something folks like [laughter] more more time explaining that this is not you know reading the text that says it's the body of Christ and then really emphasizing that this is that this is not >> oh really >> oh yeah because everybody were were Catholics >> like everybody in the church was the next Catholic like literally everybody except except for the children but I mean like all the the older people all adults that converted were all Catholics. And so that's why it was so anti-liturgical and that's why it was so kind of anti-commute anti-ukaristic because they were always trying to like warn people that this is different like tell people this is different. This is not what you grew up with you know this is not this doesn't this is just symbolic. This is you know in memory of me it's a memory it's not the thing and like that kind of stuff. And it was every single like every single communion they would always have to say that.

[00:35:27]So would it be fair to say that not only was uh Catholicism in Quebec reactive, but the Protestants were reactive, too?

[00:35:35]>> I mean, for sure the Protestants were were all the Protestantism that I grew up was a complete reaction to Catholicism.

[00:35:42]>> Um, and it was it was super interesting because this is, you know, and you know, God love him. I my pastor which I which I always all my pastors were great like I I have no I have no I have no uh I have nothing to criticize in terms of their their their persons or their you know but I remember once when we were getting older and when postmodernism was kind of flooding in I remember he said he said man I miss the Catholics [laughter] he said because at least you could talk to the Catholics or at least you could take the Bible and say >> like you know here's what the Bible says and then you could argue argue over what the Bible said, but he said, he's like, "Now people don't care."

[00:36:20]>> So, I don't even know how he's like, "I don't know how to evangelize people anymore because >> they don't care." And so, how where do you start? Do you start with Adam and Eve? Like, how do you start the conversation? Yeah.

[00:36:29]>> Yeah.

[00:36:30]>> So, that was an interesting Yeah, it was interesting. So, basically, secret church movement is um the the the counterculture, the Jesus people movement. They all get up, get a job, and become the captains of industry.

[00:36:44]That's basically secret search church movement. They they discover psychology and they are going to um you know do all kinds of things but they're going to basically keep um the evangelical conversion scheme in line. You could go to Willow Creek, see Bill Hibles, he'd still use force spiritual laws even though they took out all the crosses.

[00:37:05]They have a jazz band on stage. Um they're going to do all that. The emergent church movement was a postmodernity.

[00:37:14]um the infiltration of postmodernity into evangelicals.

[00:37:19]>> Yeah.

[00:37:20]>> Okay. And so then you started to get doubt. I mean the the the main word of the emerging church movement was doubt.

[00:37:28]And that movement provoked both someone like you know who Nadia Boltzweber is?

[00:37:35]>> And these people [laughter] >> Oh, you should look her up. Um >> right.

[00:37:40]>> Uh you should. She um eventually she and Gloria Steinum appeared at a woman's celebration. She is a she is the they gave her a very prominent position in the Evangel Evangelical Lutheran Church of America. Uh she's like chief ambassador to the world or something like this. She's she's tattooed up. Um she's >> Oh, I think I know who she is. Yeah, I know who she is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So she and Gloria Steinum produced a a a silver vulva made of the >> the purity rings.

[00:38:13]>> That's right.

[00:38:14]>> I remember that. Okay. So I do know who she is. Yeah.

[00:38:16]>> So symbolism happens.

[00:38:17]>> Yeah. I was super actually it's interesting that you say that cuz actually right at the end of my time in the pro in the Baptist church these people like they were just starting out like would would in like 200 one 2002 would that have already been something already moving then >> and so I was you know I was super involved in the Baptist churches. I was I I wrote these plays, these like massive plays that were performed and we we did these big tours around Quebec, you know, and we would we had like 30 people on stage and you know, and then we would so I was kind of like this known figure in the in the in the Protestant movement. And then one time at the church that I was still going to right on the verge when I was going to leave, this guy came to fish. Like he came fishing for me in the church and he was like, "We're starting this new church and it's like creative and it's and it's and and he was talking about it like sensitive to open and like you know, we're reading all different things and and uh it was still evangelical though, but it was it was and he was trying to get me to go to his church, which was really funny. And I'm like, dude, I'm on my way out." you know, it's like [laughter] maybe, you know, five years ago I would have been interested.

[00:39:25]Uh, and then I think that that's that church. I know a little bit about the story what happened and they became kind of that the the thing that leads to deconstruction, right? That leads to people ultimately leaving the church >> and that's exactly what happened. You know who Richard Beck is? He has a blog called Okay. Uh, >> I mean, maybe I know these people. I just don't know their names. But like that lady, I do know she didn't.

[00:39:47]>> Yeah. Well, and and it what's really interesting is that there's this whole group of people that are sort of clustered in the emerging church movement and it's so typical of postmodernity because you can have you can have a group that isn't a group. And so it's both it's Nadia Boltzweber, it's um Oh, why can't I? It's it's Mark Driscoll. Yeah.

[00:40:09]>> Who basically goes the other way. And it's um why can't I think of his name?

[00:40:16]Velvet Elvis. um was with Oprah. Um oh, people are going to kill me. Luke Thompson's going to kill me for not thinking of his name. Wrote wrote uh Love Wins. Um anyway, you you had you this is so interesting that you don't know this history, but why would you?

[00:40:35]>> Yeah, I think that's right. I was exactly at the time that I was not only becoming Orthodox, but then I was also moving to Africa.

[00:40:41]>> Right. And because I think that this has it's a lot of the refugees of this movement who are really being attracted to orthodoxy.

[00:40:55]It's possible >> and and again you I mean you're sort of a thoroughbred so you kind of ran through this stuff quickly. Um, but a lot of people it's it's exactly that guy who tried to attract you to his church because you're exact I mean you're you're wrestling with postmodernity. You have a lot of experience in evangelicalism and and then but but what happens in orthodoxy is that you're you're not going to go young restless and reform.

[00:41:28]So that's one of the branches. You're not going to go with why can't I remember his name? He was on with Oprah.

[00:41:35]Um, uh, >> the mega church guy. That guy.

[00:41:39]>> Yeah. Well, he opened a church. Uh, Rob Bell. Rob Bell.

[00:41:42]>> Okay.

[00:41:44]You >> have any thoughts about Rob Bell?

[00:41:45]>> I don't KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THESE.

[00:41:46]>> WOW. WOW. WOW.

[00:41:50]I'm This is This is just amazing.

[00:41:52]>> I really I mean, it's weird like I really am Orthodox, you know? I just like I just kind of and also because I left I always remember I was gone for seven years and when I came back you know I just reintegrated my parish and that was it.

[00:42:03]>> Cidle up to Deacon Sarapin Roland.

[00:42:07]>> Deacon Sarapim knows all about He knows >> he knows all of this.

[00:42:10]>> He knows all of this for sure because he was part of the young whatever restless reform thing.

[00:42:15]>> That's right. And that's all part of the emerging church movement. And I think um a lot of a lot of the evangelicals going to orthodoxy are walking through this because in many ways orthodoxy is post postmodern, >> right?

[00:42:35]>> And and again Peterson was sort of Peterson is >> he's your friend. He's hard to quantify because in some ways he's very modern and despite the fact of what he said >> he's postmodern.

[00:42:50]>> He's postmodern.

[00:42:51]>> No, for sure. I was like, well, also because he he he is very influenced by Haidiger and because he's influenced by Haidiger, it's very it's difficult for him to avoid uh questions that postmodernism brought about. I think that he had a frustration dealing with Fuko and Deida in while he was at when he was at Harvard. Um, but I also think that, you know, I he didn't really completely understand them like he didn't understand. We've had conversations about this uh a lot. Uh he saw it from the perspective of the kind of English enlightenment types. Uh like that guy who wrote the that that that horrible book on postmodernism.

[00:43:32]What's his name again? The one Jordan likes him a lot. He has a I shouldn't say that. He's he's still >> I think >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Him. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:43:42]>> Yeah. Stephen Hicks does not understand postmod postmodernism again and at all like at all he doesn't understand and then Jordan's uh take on postmodernism is through Stephen Hicks and therefore he kind of misunderstands a lot of the a lot of the arguments. So uh so yeah.

[00:43:56]Yeah. So, but I agree that Jordan is definitely um he definitely has intuitively he kind of understands the question that postmodernism is is is uh is dealing with >> and but then he's like a Moses figure because I see he's and and it was even destiny. I mean, you mentioned destiny because our [snorts] friend um rationality rules had a video where he's trying to figure out why Jordan Peterson provoked what he provoked. And it was Destiny who said Jordan Peterson just is like a stairway that leads people right to the edge and Jordan stops there and everybody just keeps following him and going right over. And and I think that's I think that's exactly why and and in that sense Jordan is, you know, there's there's been all sorts of biblical um analogies to Jordan, Cyrus or John the Baptist, but I think in some ways there's very much a Moses element to him and his calling.

[00:44:57]>> Yeah. Yeah. And did they mean that in terms of towards Christianity or like towards the alt-right or whatever?

[00:45:02]>> Towards Christianity.

[00:45:03]>> Yeah. because and their focus was on, you know, because they're still sort of stuck in this new atheist thing where Christianity is the Did you see Did you see his conver rationality rules conversation with Clint Scriber?

[00:45:17]>> No. No.

[00:45:18]>> Watch the first 15 minutes of that and look at this is this is Steven Woodford's best way to describe religion. Just watch it. It is it is a gift to any it is a gift to any thoughtful Christian that because once you watch it it's like >> there's still someone who actually thinks that this is what religion is.

[00:45:40]Yeah.

[00:45:41]>> I believe it. I I I that's why honestly like you know I at some point after I did that conversation with him and a few others I said I'm not engaging with these people you know anymore because they just don't understand. It's and it's very it's actually it's gonna say it's like it's a it's provoking my passions, let's just say. And [laughter] so it's not helpful for me if I want to to to to remove sin from my from my life. And so it just like it would get me really riled up. And that the only reason why I accepted the the one with uh the recent one, what's his name?

[00:46:16]>> Oh, Joe Foley.

[00:46:16]>> With Joe Foley. Uh was because they said it's not going to be a debate. It's going to be like a kind of steelman >> Yeah. exercise. Um, and uh, but still I also felt like Joe didn't understand the entailments. He probably did because at the end he was like, "I don't believe cities exist." Which I was like, "Oh, that means he understands the entailments." And then and then to hear someone say literally in public, "I don't believe cities exist. They only exist in the minds of the people that are in the city." I'm like, I don't. I'm hoping people are going to notice that my explanation is more useful than yours. Like, it's just like, how can you say that cities don't exist? Like it's like interesting.

[00:46:52]>> Well, the performative contradictions are just overwhelming. Um I don't believe cities exist.

[00:47:00]>> So I mean it probably means that he did actually understand the entailments. I think that someone like Woodford probably wouldn't and would say like what's the big deal? Yeah, of course you know cities exist. What does that what does that what does that mean? Like what does that how does that reflect on God?

[00:47:12]Like why does it make you believe in God or not?

[00:47:14]>> Yeah.

[00:47:16]So, I I recently had a a good conversation with with Nathan Jacobs.

[00:47:21]Um, and like I said, I'm going to do a thing with him in England in London right before Ark. And and Nathan and I have actually, you know, we've we become closer. We like hanging out together to the degree that we can. Um, but one of the things that I continue to try to get my mind around is orthodoxy. And of course there are certain [laughter] >> I feel like you know you've had a lot of a lot of opportunities to kind of get >> but but you know it's it's sort of like it's sort of like you know I've been married to my wife now for 38 years and um >> you know we've known each other >> wrapping your mind mind around that I get >> exactly and so part of and and since you are sort of the prophet of verticality >> Daniel >> my life is very real. Yeah. [laughter] >> So, >> so wrapping your head around orthodoxy.

[00:48:13]>> Yeah. And so, since you're in some ways the prophet of verticality, uh, what is the verticality of orthodoxy? Because I I'm watching So, Jay Dyer is Orthodox, Nathan Jacobs is Orthodox. I I have met some some amazingly wonderful Orthodox priests and Orthodox lay persons, yourself included, that I I absolutely admire. And um I can see, you know, I I can see it through some of you. And and of course, now this isn't unusual to church because I've been in church all my life. There there are others that I listen to and I think, you know, um you've left Protestantism, but you kept all of the worst elements of it and are dragging it over with you.

[00:49:01]Um, and so I'm, you know, and it it was interesting because especially in my talk with Nathan, he he really sort of gave me, I think, a little bit of a feel for how the Orthodox deal with theology, which is different from sort of confessional Protestants and and different from the Catholics. I'm still not I still don't know what the Catholic Church is in many respects either. Um but but but tell me tell me what is orthodoxy really and and and [laughter] how is it and how is it different from you know don't bother with Protestants Jay Dyer covers that it's you know plenty but um what what is the verticality of orthodoxy as opposed to the other traditions.

[00:49:47]>> Yeah. Well, I think I think that I think that you have to understand it more as that orthodoxy has a I like I you know I talk about breathing in and breathing out like it it actually is both vertical and horizontal. It's both a proposition and a response, right? So you think about it in terms of uh of the lovers in the Song of Songs, you know, there's this there's action and reaction and there's this play between the the vertical aspect of orthodoxy and the more organic aspect of orthodoxy and that will you'll see that happen all through its structure, right?

[00:50:23]So people, if you've been to an Orthodox service, people are always surprised because they're used to Catholic liturgies. And then when they go to the Orthodox service, they're like, people are moving around. People are like doing things. Children are like walking around the church, and they're like, "What's going on? Why is this not ordered like the way that I think?" It's because there there's both this this sense of of of common attention, of verticality, a sense of authority, you know, a lurggical reality, a eucharistic reality. But there's also the amen.

[00:50:53]There's also the response. There's also the economia, right? There's also this this adapting of the of the vertical and the authority to the particular situation. And so I think that that is also why sometimes people are confused of why orthodoxy looks the way it does is that [snorts] we don't have a catechism.

[00:51:12]>> Right.

[00:51:12]>> Right. So because of that they we have dogmatic pronunciations. We have we have doctrinal things that are absolutely essential. But then we have what we call theologumina which is we have theological opinions and people will argue over the theological opinion. And then you'll hear all the time people someone say orthodoxy believes this and then they'll say it as if it's like this is what the church believes and it's like well you know maybe you know I mean yeah you know if that's what my it's if that's what my my spiritual father is is encouraging me to live in a certain way and says this is the tradition this is the faith and you should follow and you should you should obey. like sometimes when it's declared as this absolute thing, you know, it's not as it's not as it's not as obvious as you might think. And so that's why there's a lot of there are a lot of uh or theological questions which in some ways are still kind of open in orthodoxy that we that we still discuss and argue over. [snorts] And just like any rhetorical situation, you'll that's why you'll see people uh sometimes you'll see you'll hear contradictory things in in in orthodoxy because people will present their position, but they'll do it as if this is the universal accepted position of the church and you know it's just not it's just not necessarily true.

[00:52:33]uh and you and when when you look at some of the saints even in some of the modern saints you'll see that there are some saints in our tradition in the recent saints that are quite rigorous that are quite uh you know that are anti-atholic that are very you know kind of rigorous and you have other saints that are quite open and that you know talk about uh [snorts] uh you know will will have had discussions with people from other other denominations or even with other religions and so these these things just that's how it is. That's a body, you know.

[00:53:08]>> That's that's consistent with uh my conversation with Nathan, which which is it which is to me actually one of the more attractive elements of orthodoxy is as I'm sort of getting a getting a sense of how you hold things. I mean there's a very there seems to be a fairly non-anxious way of holding things which is different from especially um certain Protestant traditions that can get very anxious and reactive and then you know clamp down very tightly.

[00:53:42]>> Yeah. But it's also because you know Paul that [cough] it really is about living the life right of of you know being a small Christ in the world of living out that life.

[00:53:54]That's really what all of this is about.

[00:53:56]And so that's why there's that I think that that that's why you'll see this this light touch. It's mostly about souls and about trans transforming people. And of course these theological uh definitions are very important. I'm not denying that they are they're they're sometimes they're essential, but that's not where the life of the church is lived. You know, when you when you go to vespers and you go to liturgy and you go to confession, you know, you're not discussing theology.

[00:54:22]You know, you're you're just living it out. And uh and so I think that also the online world because it's so propositionally focused, you know, in some ways distorts our perspective of orthodoxy. And it's not that it shouldn't exist. I I actually I think that debates are fine. I there's no problem I don't have a problem with theological debates even when they get a little testy. But, you know, I mean, if we can't reduce the church to that, that's ridiculous. It's like the has it has in some ways the debates have their function, but they they they're not the most important thing. You know, the most important thing is living your life as a disciple of Jesus Christ.

[00:55:00]>> Now, it was so funny when Brett says, "Well, you're a scholar." I thought no work like okay whatever I'm not a scholar >> I mean I I I think artist is probably the easiest >> yeah probably the best way to go >> artist but because of that I mean part of what you see with a movement um there's always sort of a a stepping back and and now if I recall correctly back to our earliest conversations we sort of talking about your life when you first got into orthodox iconography um you very much wanted to well was there sort of a a postmodern I mean were there orthodox churches that were sort of doing what we see some of the Catholics doing with respect to to art in the church or did or as orthodoxy just sort of maintain their tradition >> no no you can't there's no there's no way that you would have postmodern uh stuff in the in the church that there know the worst thing that happened in the orthodox that people say is the westernization right this is the thing that people people say that happened in the church that is problematic and it mostly has to do with moving towards ca western catholic forms and so both in the music moving towards more let's say classical type music you know baroque music or classical music inspired you know if you think of uh the 19th century composers in Russia that were actually composing liturggical things you know if you think of of rims cors or you know the different different uh uh that they were using more western tropes and then trying to introduce them in the church.

[00:56:36]see that in iconography where it moved towards more Renaissance or Baroque influenced uh imagery [snorts] but but then I think that because of the the communist attack because in some way all that led to to communism and to a devastation of the church that when the revi in the revival of the church there's very there's very little temptation to move towards the the postmodern the postmodern stuff. um you know and there's a there's a kind of a yeah the the the liturgy is is set people people will write new melodies but usually those melodies are very much in in in tune with the more medieval you know medieval uh language you could say I have a one of my history professors at Calvin um did a lot of his later in life work on the religious roots of the French Revolution and I think It's I think it's interesting to explore let's say the the manifestation of that spirit in France and its connection to French Catholicism because you know when I look around Italian C to the degree that there is such a thing called Italy um Italian Catholicism, German Catholicism, French Catholicism, Spanish Catholicism. I mean, Catholicism does take on different things in the different cultures. And then someone recently made the comment to me about sort of asking the question why why did communism what what's the relationship let's say between why the Russian revolution happened in an orthodox a deeply orthodox culture?

[00:58:23]>> Yeah.

[00:58:23]>> Do you have any thoughts on that?

[00:58:30]I do have to admit that it's it is something of a of a mystery. The one thing that I think is related to what I talked about before, which is this idea of the wall, right? This idea of in some ways, you know, you have this very medieval culture that in some ways continues to be quite medieval until very late. uh as the mo the world around them is kind of modernizing and is doing all of these these changes and so you know and then because okay so this actually this actually like a very interesting thing to think about you know and it's related to some of the things that my brother has been talking about recently which is the the role of the opponent you know uh the idea that when you have something from the outside that is kind of poking at you you know little by little and is and is uh provoking your thinking in different ways, then what that does is that it it helps you test what you are and it helps you actually stay in tune, right?

[00:59:31]Because one of the things that happens when you're too isolated is you become self-sufficient and you actually think that this is the only way to think and this is the only way to be. You see that happening in a lot of the the you know you saw it happening with like the woke suffer like the the extreme leftist stuff is that some point this became the everybody just thought this was obvious and everybody just thinks that way and when that happens you can take a needle and just pop you can just pop it right because nobody has nobody is now nobody they've lost all the weapons they used to have to defend themselves against the outside because they haven't been sparring right they haven't been kind of uh and I think that that's that's possibly something that happened with uh with Russia >> uh is that you know there was this highly medieval thing and then Peter the Great you know and people downstream from them suddenly just tried to modernize Russia like super fast and didn't realize what that meant like didn't realize what it would mean for a Russian peasant to suddenly be facing all of these modern ideas. Um that's kind of my that's that's possibly my insight. Uh but uh I don't know. Yeah, >> it it's also interesting. I was reading a um uh I was is Ian um I was reading a biography of Toltoy recently and I I was a little surprised to note that in during Toltoy's life the Russian court spoke French >> which is really interesting >> because of course I mean and that's I think part of what's difficult for a lot of Americans to understand is how French France was the superpower on the continent really until it was sort of rivaled and challenged by Germanification.

[01:01:16]>> Spoke the English royalty spoke French until Elizabeth at least.

[01:01:20]>> Yeah. Oh, okay. That Oh, interesting.

[01:01:22]Well, French was sort of the I mean before English, it was sort of the world the the >> language. It was like English. It was the world. It was a langua langua frana, which actually means the French language.

[01:01:33]>> Yeah.

[01:01:33]>> When you say langua frana or whatever.

[01:01:36]Do you do you think um what do you think's coming for the I mean you you mentioned the relationship you mentioned what the internet does um the the tensions between the internet and orthodoxy yet it's at the same time that I think the internet has been foundational for sure in the propagation of orthodoxy >> 100%. Yeah.

[01:02:01]>> Um how's that going to play out? you know, it's it's going to it's going to hopefully it's going to play out in the parishes. You know, that's why, you know, that's one of the reason why I tell I say be I say go to church. And you know, on the you don't see it, but when I'm when I'm in public and I I I talk to the people, I say go to church.

[01:02:22]When I'm with clergy, I say, "Stop complaining about converts." Like that's what I [laughter] because because you have some of that where it's like the priests are complaining about the quality of converts that are coming to the church.

[01:02:34]I'm like what the hell is that? How you can how can you complain about the quality of converts? It's like like you're it's your job, man. You are the shepherd now. You make them into Orthodox Christians. That's your job now. And I I mean it's not easy. It's hard. Obviously it's hard, you know, especially people that convert, you know, as they're already adults and they have all these ways of thinking. you know, they're still online or whatever, but um I think that that's what has to happen. I think that in some ways the the clergy have to understand that, you know, they they have to tune these guys and these people that are converting and to make them into disciples, you know, rather than, you know, thinking machines. Uh and yeah, and I've known some priests that have been amazing at it. Like I I knew some I won't devote necessarily uh tell where it was but there was one priest he had a lot of young guys converting and he told them because you know after liturgy we always have coffee hour right so we always have like a little meal and he said he said oh my newly my new converts he's like I forbid them to talk at coffee hour. I said at you know what you do at coffee hour you serve tables you you you you help people make sure everybody has food. You pick up the the the stuff, you do the dishes, that's what you do at coffee hour. Because he was like he was saying we have to serve like this is what being a Christian is. Like it's not about arguing about, you know, which priest is a heretic and which bishop is saying the things that you don't like that he's saying. It's like no, this is what a Christian is. And so I thought that that was a kind of a cool thing to say. It's like, you know, you're the, you know, these are your soldiers, you know. So it's like if you're the c if you're their captain or whatever, like now you need to, you know, give them a line. give him a line to follow, you know.

[01:04:18]>> So, part of um you know, part of what I've learned from you over these over these last few years has been the capacity of the church to sort of absorb and redeem, let's say, pagan mythology in the pagan world. You see that in, you know, in the earlier church. Um, you see it in the you see you see it in the medieval church as they're beginning to, you know, they're going up into northern Europe and how, you know, Christ conquers the Scandinavians and the North area and how, you know, and you see that in Catholicism, how they they they have to sort of take in this culture and redeem it.

[01:05:00]What's going to happen with modernity?

[01:05:02]Is is it is it is its roots too closely to Latin Christristendom or what's going to happen to the church as we get further away from it? I mean are we going to sort of look back and are are we on one hand going to say like is it more gnostic and that oh you know we have to turn our back on the gnostics or is it more um you know CS Lewis's dreams of former generation and the mythologies? What what do you think is going to happen with modernity on that score?

[01:05:33]You know I I think that modernity in terms of technology is already being integrated you know and there's a discussion obviously how much you do you integrate the technology you know there's still churches talking about amplification like whether or not you should actually have amplification in the church u and uh and I think these are going to be worked out you know how do we how do we integrate this so I I think that for on that front it's it's a live discussion and I think that some things are being integrated it's going to It's going to be peace meal like everything, you know, in a body. There's going to be things that are integrated and people are going to watch and see what happens and see what it does and and some things are going to be ejected and and integrated. I think that in terms of the [snorts] modern thinking, you know, I do but like you know I'm I'm influenced by Haidiger, you know, so I mean you could say that Haidiger is maybe the first postmodern.

[01:06:26]Some people will say something like that. uh maybe you know but I think that H highaidiger is useful to help actually helping pe bring people back into the into the church and back into the the type of thinking that you see in scripture. You know, I do think that, for example, the the the more analytic aspect of of modernity, I think is going to be I think is can be definitely useful for Christians, you know, and I, you know, there's there's nothing wrong with like a scholarly edition of something, you know. I think that that's great. I think that scholarly editions are very useful, but, you know, we just have to make sure we know the priority, right? It's like don't don't bring the scholarly edition. Don't make it's not a lurggical text, right? don't bring it into church and use it for for the liturgy, you know. But I so I do think that that I do hope that orthodoxy will integrate the best aspects of uh of uh of modernity. I mean, for sure there's no objection to the the the medical progress. All of these kinds of things are are are things that that are that can be deeply Christian if they're properly they're properly oriented.

[01:07:30]>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, those are that that's my list of questions and I know you've got um you've got a time thing and I've got an or I've got a homeless guy waiting for me. Um but um >> and so but uh so what is this like I'm just curious for for you in in the sense that you know uh you we've been having these conversations for a while now and so what is this like why what's provoking you to all of a sudden say I want to get wrap my head around orthodoxy like what is it what's is it because of the arguments that have been going on like maybe there's some of that because you have these debaters that are like Andrew and Jay and these people are really out there you know like they're very they're quite getting a lot of attention you could No, I I you know, I'm just I'm just a digger and [laughter] orthodoxy is orthodoxy is sort of hard to get your mind around and it's no longer something that's over there in Eastern Europe. Um it's you know now I am friends with you know Orthodox people who are are going into the Orthodox church and I do on one hand you know my my first my first Orthodox service I ever went to I went with Paul Kings North and Martin um Shaw in in Gway Ireland after we did an event together and it was a Romanian service so most of it I didn't understand. In May, I'm going to be um I'm going to be doing an adult education class at an Orthodox church in Austin, Texas. And then they asked, you know, are you gonna stay for Sunday? I said, definitely going to stay for Sunday. I I very much I very much want to I've got so many friends who are involved in this and I don't get that many Sundays off. So, I very much want to go to an Orthodox service and I very much want to I I I want to see how Christ is moving in this world and saving and rescuing people and what he's doing in his church. And, you know, I've been using this word that I coined because evangelical is sort of like these sheep of Protestantism that can sort of tolerate each other and collaborate. Um Ryan Burge just posted a thing on Twitter where he noted in 2008 or in 200 10 or 12 8% of American Roman Catholics identified as born again evangelicals and that number has now jumped to 16%.

[01:10:01]So there is very much we have these rooms as CS Lewis calls them off the hallway of the Lord's church and I have been spending the last eight years befriending and respecting and learning from Orthodox and Catholics.

[01:10:22]And I part of what has happened in the new world has long been sort of a place where a lot of these you know sort of America is founded by English separatists and then of course some Roman Catholics come in and the Catholics and the Protestants are going to have to figure out their way together and at least in America we've stopped fighting now and now the Orthodox are coming. And so I I learn something beautiful and and something that I learn more of Christ through my Catholic brothers and sisters and through my Orthodox brothers and sisters.

[01:11:04]And the more I learn, just sort of like my wife, the closer I get to Catholicism or orthodoxy, the more I see, so the more questions I have. And I I really like I'm very attracted to um you know, my denomination has just been through a brutal um war over same-sex marriage and the conservatives won. And I'm I'm happy that the traditional definition of marriage is going to be maintained by my denomination. I think that's important.

[01:11:39]But what I don't like is all of what that fight has cost >> because I've got f I was sort of I you know I would have been on the liberal side because always the side of the CRC I've been on. Um and so I've lost a lot of friends who are sort of exiles and refugees now. And so I look at orthodoxy and I I know I talked to Nathan and he sort of the way he and you you explained you you said something very similar to what Nathan expl you know I can see that in Martin Shaw when I was in Galway. Um so we're going to do another event um in so the weekend after Ark I'm going over to Ireland and we might do an event in Kildair. They're talking maybe if they can get some space in that town that has, you know, basically the all the stuff around Bridget, which I didn't know a lot about. I'm sure you know a ton more about it. Um, and so I and there's going to be there's a there's a last time I when I did the event in Gway, um, I got to stay with the Dominican friars, which was tremendous fun for me. I mean, how can this Dutch Calvinist get to spend three or four days under the roof with Dominican friars and get a sense of their life together? And there's a really wonderful young scholar who's getting his PhD in medieval Irish um Christianity. So, he's going to be there. Heather uh Pulking >> Pington.

[01:13:13]>> Yeah, she's going to be there, too. And um but you know, I got to spend a lot of time with Martin Shaw on my last trip there. And you know, we we we were cheek to cheek in a car and cheek to cheek in a bus for hours on end. And so we really got a chance to know each other. And I can see in orthodoxy, I really like this this spirit of of holding of of holding something precious, but holding it away that you're you really try hard not to damage, you know, the people as they're working through their stuff.

[01:13:52]>> Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Well, yeah. We I can't believe that you never you need to go to liturgy at least once. Yeah. And like experience it. I hope you get to go.

[01:14:02]>> Well, I will go. And I you know I I hate to disappoint people when I I mean because there's, as you would could imagine, there's a whole group of people out there that are just waiting for me to pop. But there's also a group of Catholics out there that are waiting for me to pop. And because of a couple of videos I did recently, there's even a group of Muslims out there waiting for me to pop. [laughter] And I don't think I'm going to pop. I think I'm going to be who I've been all my life probably until my grave, which means, you know, I will stay a Christian reformed minister probably as long as they'll have me. And um but at the same time I I am I am deeply appreciating what Christ has done through his church in orthodoxy um in Catholicism and I am you know I am growing in Christ through these other treasures that you know just by virtue of time and space I I hadn't had a chance to to commune with. And so for me, I think I'm really happy when I think about how orthodoxy is going to continue to influence the church of Jesus Christ in North America. I think it's going to be good.

[01:15:28]I think orthodoxy has a lot to teach us and so I want to learn. So that's the reason.

[01:15:35]>> All right. Well, we'll uh we'll definitely talk again soon. Hopefully. I I'll I'll I would like I would love to hear at least what you think when you when you do go to an English an English liturgy and so uh we should talk again soon.

[01:15:47]>> All right, Jonathan. Thank you so much.

[01:15:50]>> Yeah, thanks to you. And by the way, everybody who's watching, I want to plug my thing which is, you know, we have the symbolic world summit in a few weeks, like two weeks, I think it's like almost or like less than two weeks. So, if you want to come, uh come and see us. We're gonna we're gonna we're gonna we're going to be in person together. A lot of the people you see on my channel will be there and uh and uh it's going to be a lot of fun.

[01:16:10]>> And you have some of my favorite people there. I would love to be there, but I already had this commitment to this to this other Orthodox thing in Austin, Texas.

[01:16:18]>> Stealing you away from us. I can't believe this. You [laughter] just waited just waited too long to to announce it.

[01:16:24]But uh but hopefully I'll see you soon.

[01:16:26]>> All right, Jonathan. I'll stop the recording.