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Are we ok? | Skeptic Generation | Episode 19 Season 5Added:
Hello, hello, and welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for joining. This is Skeptic Generation. I'm Eric Murphy and we need to talk. Hey everybody, it is May 24th, 2026.
Holy moly, it feels like this has both been a very very short first half of the year and the longest first half of the year in I in my entire life. Ethan, how are you? Are you feeling the same?
>> Yeah, absolutely. Dude, joining me today joining to me today is Ethan Michael, your friendly neighborhood atheist. Um, Ethan, I'm so glad you're here, brother.
>> Oh, I'm glad you had me on again.
>> Yeah, dude.
>> Always a pleasure. I appreciate it very much. Yeah, I was um I was was actually talking to the volunteers before the show about how um just how you know our history, how I've known you for years and years and talked to you, you know. Yeah. Yeah, it has. Um for people who don't know who Ethan is, um Ethan, you had, let's see, you had your friendly neighborhood atheist. It was a call-in show, right?
Yeah. Well, it was called The Perspective.
>> The Perspective. You had The Perspective >> on the channel, Your Friendly Neighborhood Atheist.
>> That's right. And then you had the show with Jenna, >> uh, the Mental Health podcast. Yes.
>> And Hannah, >> the Pickup Line.
>> Yeah.
>> Were there any others?
>> And then I had Ask an Atheist, which was weekly Ask an Atheist show.
>> Jeez.
>> Had roundts, too. A weekly round table.
No wonder you burned out. Jesus Christ, dude.
>> I was doing like five shows a week for a while. It was a blast, but eventually I'm like, "Oh my god, this is a lot of work."
>> Yeah, I Oh my gosh. Yeah, that is how you get burnout. Holy crap.
>> Yeah, you warned me, too. You did warn me. You're like, "Hey, I just got to tell you, you might want to slow down a little bit. You know, you could burn yourself out." And I'm like, "Oh my god, no. I'm not going to burn out. This is amazing." And then eventually I was like, and I burned out. So now I'm being responsible with it, doing, you know, one to two shows a week max and keeping it there despite the fact that I have like a gazillion ideas for shows right now. I'm I'm being smart and keeping it balanced. That's one of the the downfalls of ADHD is once you get so focused and obsessed with something is you just bam, you latch on to it, you keep going, and you can't do anything else.
>> Absolutely. I I I get that. Um >> I I still remember when I first called into uh the show to talk to you. Do you remember that?
>> No.
>> You don't remember? Remember the first thing I said to you?
>> What? Dude, Eric Murphy, you don't remember everything?
>> Well, to be fair, you said that to me the first time you saw me many times.
>> That became a pretty standard greeting.
So, >> you also surprised me with how tall you are. I actually thought you were shorter than me and I saw you. I'm looking up.
I'm like, >> "Well, I've only gotten wider since you've seen me last." SO, UH, that's right. I do. I do. For >> those that don't know, Eric Murphy is just as nice in person as he is on screen.
>> Oh, I love you, too. Speaking of, Ethan, um, what I what I love about having you in this community is, um, you have the biggest heart in in the community. Like, >> thank you. The the the thing is it it's it's it's wild. You will experience something, feel vulnerable, and immediately go, "Hey, I want to share that, you know, and when you accomplish something, you say, hey, you know, how can I help people up this hill that I just spent this time climbing up?" Um, you know, it it's it is from what I understand I like what a great impetus to those shows to talking about dating and relationships to talking about mental health and well-being. You know, it's it's based in a very personal place for you.
>> I uh Wait, did I Oh, I thought I muted my mic for a second.
>> No, you're good. I >> um yeah, I I I mean, I'm sure there's people with bigger hearts than me, but uh I I consider myself a empathetic person and uh I do my best to help people um >> to sometimes my detriment. You know, I I do respond to every single message I get ever all the time. It may not be immediate, but you know, I always respond. I always try to help people out. uh just, you know, it kind of drives my partner nuts because she'll be like, you know, sometimes you go too far to help people and it's like I just feel like I hope that one day if I'm in a bad situation that there will be people there to help me as well.
>> Yeah. And and you you have built up this wonderful community. Um I'm just grateful for you, man.
>> You too.
>> Yeah.
Um, no. I forgot what I was gonna say.
>> Too mushy.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I guess I I I guess the reason I bring it up is because um, you know, over the years I've done so much more than call-in shows. You know, I I had I've started numerous podcasts. I've helped countless others start their own podcasts and and helped advised on YouTube channels. Uh, I worked in nonprofits. I worked in in in tech startups and businesses and and you name it. And what kills me when you're working in like businesses, you know, is is a tech startup CEO will be like, "Hey, we need to put out a viral video.
How do we do that?" It's like, "Oh, the viral kind." Oh, oh, well, let me just make you a viral [ __ ] video. Like, you you want it viral? Oh, you didn't specify. I'm sorry. I thought you wanted dog [ __ ] Yeah.
And and and and the one piece of advice that I have is if you don't care, why should you ever expect another person to if you're not willing to put in the effort, right? Then don't expect other people to put in the effort.
That's it. It's as easy as that, right?
like you I I am privileged to have the viewers who who come here because they are giving me this time of theirs that they could be doing anything else you know and and they're here with us and you know the number of times people have just thought that they could throw money at a thing when in actuality the one thing that they needed they didn't have and that was a true care for what it is that they're doing >> and you truly care. you actually have the thing that you can't pay for. So, >> well, thank you.
>> Yeah, just >> I appreciate that. Especially coming from you. I really That really means a lot.
>> Cheers, brother. Okay, so we've got a couple of things uh to talk about.
Cheers. Yes, I've got my coffee drink thing. Um >> yeah, my ice. These things are are so addictive. No caffeine, no sugar, but they're quite delicious. Ah, well, I'm running uh extra caffeine and sugar for the two of us then.
Um, so you want to talk about mental health.
Um, usually that's the thing that you're really excited to talk about. Why is that?
Because to me it's it's really important because it's something I struggle with and I know there are you know I I growing up I I didn't really have a lot of people that I knew that struggled.
And as I've gotten older, especially as I joined the atheist community and people have been more open about it, I realize that I'm not alone. So, it's very important to me to make sure other people know that they're not alone either in their struggles and that there are other people and it's not just them uh in in in their own battle. So, I you know that's why like on my Facebook why I'm very outspoken about my mental health is I I just want people to know that you know other people struggle too and it really is okay not to be okay. I mean, it sucks, don't get me wrong, but uh you know, >> yeah, >> it's okay.
>> What about you?
>> I uh Well, I mean, I've talked about my clinical depression before. Um I and and I I'm I'm happy to talk about it because I think there are misconceptions about it in the same way that I think that there are misconceptions about the different thing issues you have and and the more we talk about it the more we can normalize it and so yeah no just normalization is I think important and um is it the most popular thing to talk about? No.
But um you know >> and I don't want to bring anyone down either. Yeah. Like I I do you know we want people at least from my perspective. I always want someone leaving a podcast like learning something or feeling good. So I don't want to bring down the mood and be too too too down.
>> Well so so so let me let me at least put this out there for the viewer. Uh you guys um Ethan was asking about AI on Facebook this week >> and I want to talk to Ethan about AI. Um so >> uh before we get to dessert we need to have dinner and that we that means we should talk about you know some of the hard some of these harder topics. Um >> absolutely.
>> Yeah. So the things that I can talk about with experience are um depression, anxiety, and uh ADHD.
>> Uh yeah.
>> And and bipolar.
>> Uh and bipolar. And bipolar. Okay. Fair enough. Fair enough. Um do you Oh, and and and and um PTSD as well or or therapist said CPTSD. I I I really don't like throwing all these things out there because I feel like I'm like >> playing like what what sticks at the wall game. So yeah, I I do have these diagnosis, but you know, it's just at the same time I'm not looking for a wo is me. Look at all the boxes I check, you know?
>> Right. Identity politics, man.
>> Right.
>> Well, let's let's um let's talk about them. Uh, so do you have a similar kind of depression to me?
Like a clinical depression or is it more like major depressive disorder or or just a >> it's anxietyinduced depressive disorder?
>> Oh, interesting. Okay. So, how does that h how does that function?
>> So, I I I'm only speaking from my my experience. I'm not speaking as a medical professional. I'm not a psychiatrist. So, please, you know, uh people watching don't quote me verbatim on this. But as I understand it, you know, I I get anxious very easily. My, you know, my heart starts pounding and then once I get anxious about something and that anxiety continues, then my mood sinks lower and lower. Uh because I'm so anxious about it, I start getting really depressed about it.
>> Um right now I'm dealing with some physical health issues that are definitely triggering my both anxiety and depression. You know, I've been losing sleep at night. Um, I'm in a constant state of just like where my heart's racing. I'm fidgety. So today, if I seem more fidgety than normal, no, I'm not on crack. I'm just really really anxious right now and a little down.
>> I got you. So, does that create like a negative feedback loop?
>> Like uh >> like where I'm talking down to myself?
>> No. like like um like the depression spikes the or the anxiety brings in the depression and then the depression reinforces the anxiety which then like and so it creates that feedback and it it just it just gets worse and worse cuz it feeds itself.
>> Yes, that's exactly what it is.
>> Damn.
>> It's not fun.
>> No, that no. So for me um I have clinical depression and the way that was explained to me is that um I just my brain is very selfish when it comes to the chemicals uh that it's willing to share between neurons. And so I just have a lack of those feel-good chemicals.
Um >> I believe it's serotonin. Is that correct?
Um, so I've been on SSRIs and and it has helped. Um, but yeah, it's it's it's a whole thing.
And and ultimately what it means though is that for me, I just like it could be the best day.
Everything can be great, you know. I you know and and I can still be extremely depressed and it doesn't because it doesn't it's not actually tied to anything in reality you know that it doesn't have a source um and because of that >> be like sitting there and then all of a sudden you get depressed. Is that is that correct or is that inaccurate? Um, so there's just kind of like a baseline depression. It's just always like like when there are situations that could cause someone to be depressed, when those things happen to me, I can feel them as some a different kind of depression. Like it's okay.
>> It is a different thing. Um, so yeah, no clinical depression, not much you can do about it, you know, but is what it is. Yeah. Uh, >> are you, if you don't want to answer this, are are you currently medicated or >> Absolutely. Absolutely.
>> I had a uh I had a parent who um chose to not be medicated for their mental health needs and my family suffered for it.
And so I took that as me internalizing that it's selfish to the people around me if I'm not taking care of my [ __ ] >> and because of that experience. And so um yeah, I I I feel like I owe it to the people around me at least to >> Yeah. go to therapy.
>> I heal you. Um, that's how I'm I'm not medicated for the depression, but I am medicated for the anxiety and the uh bipolar. Um, the bipolar meds I definitely need. Now, I for clarification, I have bipolar 2, not bipolar one, so I don't go through like super extremes. Um, I I I go through not mild, but moderate. Um, I believe that's the defining difference. Um, again, not a doctor, don't quote me, but that's at least my personal experience with it.
>> But you know what can be frustrating >> is when sometimes >> so like >> you got like diet bipolar. It's like same great taste, less less calories, right?
I'm sorry. I don't mean that is that right less less yeah less fattening >> I am stealing that from now on I am not saying I am bipolar too I'm saying bipolar yeah yeah >> like the white claw of bipolar nice okay >> that was I needed that laugh, Eric. So, thank you.
>> Absolutely.
I don't I don't mean to minimize your diagn.
>> Good. Good.
Okay. Sorry. Continue, though. So, you're saying that uh uh the highs and lows are not as are not as intense >> as extreme or as longlasting.
>> Okay. Um but you you know what bothers me and I don't know if if anyone in the audience can relate to this or has ever experienced this but when someone minimizes like for instance uh I don't know if anyone's familiar with hypomomania it's uh when you go through this you know super hypo uh hyper like happiness and there are moments where I've been very very happy and you know there's been someone that has said to like, "Oh, you you're just being bipolar." It's like, >> please, if anyone's ever said something like that to someone, don't don't do that.
It's being like, >> "I'm happy. Just let me be happy. Don't tell me I'm just being bipolar."
>> Yeah.
No, agreed. I I think uh like the only times that I've thought about saying something is like, "Hey, you're doing great. Fantastic. You're taking out two credit cards. We need to sit down and talk." Like that's not the time to sign up for a credit card.
Maybe, you know.
>> No. No. Exactly.
>> Like, but uh yeah, if somebody's >> and I am impulsive, >> but I'm not like to the extreme impulsive. I'll I'll get some bad ideas here and there where I'll be like, "This is a great idea.
>> You're on this show." Yeah.
>> Yeah. I will I'm being very careful. I have to I try very hard to tame myself on live streams because I know once you say it out loud, there is no taking it back.
>> No. No. In the room. I do at times I'll purposefully pause longer or think longer because I know that sometimes word vomit or as a friend to me calls it rainbow vomit just comes out of my mouth and I need to make sure that doesn't happen because I would be devastated if something I said harm someone or upset something like that would just yeah >> that would crush me. I want to be as responsible with my speech as possible.
>> And and and generally when it comes to content creators, uh you you have to run it through the filter of people are going to be the least charitable possible.
>> Yes.
>> It's just how it is. It's just how it is. I know that uh you know like if I ran for political office tomorrow, >> there are things that nobody ever got upset about that are going to get dragged out, you know, cuz it can be taken, right? Like there are thousands of hours of me on the internet and I've said some stupid [ __ ] before.
>> Uh and all you got to do is all you got to do is clip it like Yeah. Um I appreciate that. Um I I it looks like we actually have a caller.
um who wants to talk about bipolar and ADHD and how that relates to >> ADHD is autism and ADHD, right? Because from my understanding, uh they both do overlap in some ways.
>> They do. I've I I have It's funny. I've never been diagnosed and I don't think I have autism, but the autistic people in my life seem to say differently. So, I I don't know.
I don't know.
>> I feel you on that.
>> Yeah, you too.
>> Yeah.
>> Yep.
>> My uh psychiatrist thinks so and wants me to go get officially tested. I don't purposely see a point for me at least >> because it's not going to change anything for me. Not saying it doesn't help other people, but >> if I go through testing and they say you have autism, it's just okay.
>> Add it to the pile. Yeah.
>> Yeah. Add it add it to the checklist and I'm just going to keep going about my daily business.
>> Fair enough. Fair enough. Let's talk to Alice in Oregon. Alice, you're live on the show.
>> Hey Alice, how you doing?
>> Good morning. Good morning. Good morning.
>> Hello. Hello. Thank you for calling in.
>> Thanks for having me.
>> Uh so what's on your mind today?
>> Um yeah, just the the whole conversation about um mental health is important. So thanks for uh doing that, focusing on that. And um I listened to this show the last time you two were together and talking about um ADHD and bipolar and whatnot and just wanted to get on in on it. Um I was diagnosed bipolar in 1986.
>> Oh >> and yeah and um and there was no doubt you know I you know people were like oh that tracks you know uh symptoms starting at 16 and then having a a major mania at uh 19.
>> And at the time the only treatment was lithium and lithium works for seven out of 10 people. And I had doctors yell at me for um trying to point out that I was one of the three in 10. And so um it was really rough back then.
>> Yeah.
>> Um and and then so then fast forward to in the last few years. Okay. I'm I'm months away from 60 now. And um just a couple of years ago, my daughter who was diagnosed ADHD, >> we were talking about it and she's like, "Yeah, you know, you you you probably are, >> you know, and we talked about my mom being undiagnosed bipolar >> and um and then my daughter even threw out, yeah, you know, mom grandma was probably autistic and I started taking all the online quizzes and whatnot, you know, and um so I'm undiagnosed. most ADHD and um but um >> Okay, >> so that's some background.
>> Yeah. And um you also wanted to talk about autism.
>> Yeah, that's the most recent. So I've been um self- diagnosed ADHD for several years now.
>> Okay. And then in just the recent time, you know, the my echo chamber algorithm um brought me the uh autistic questionnaires, you know, and I'm like, you know, they're like, well, if you have, you know, 20 of these 30 and I've got 25 of the 30 questions, you know, and started seeing those overlaps and and to your earlier point about their the the di the diagnosis of the of the combo is that there are so many there's a bunch of symptoms that overlap >> and then there are separate systems that's just the autistic or just the ADHD and so the person um has uh conflicting things you know lacking ritual lacking spontaneity you know struggling with with those kinds of things >> um and then my my daughter kind of helped me um understand or you know um when she said that I was one of the lucky people in that my hyperfocus led to a career.
>> Yeah.
>> So that was kind that was kind of fun to like go oh okay well that that explains a lot you know.
>> Yeah.
>> And um yeah >> I'm glad you were able to make it work for you at least. But yeah, um >> I I I I think that among the questions to test for autism, they should ask, "Do you watch atheist call-in shows?" UM >> YEAH, that's >> Alice in in I've been doing this for almost 10 years now. Um I have >> It's been that long.
>> Mhm.
>> Wow.
Wow. Okay. Sorry. Continue.
>> 2017. It's 2026. So, nine years. Almost 10 years now.
>> I've been doing this for six years. Holy crap.
>> Yeah.
>> Time flies.
>> It does. Um but but but in this in the time that I've been doing this, I have met thousands of atheists, you know, people who watch these call-in shows.
And I've got to tell you, uh, there is a significant proportion of people in this community who also have autism, which is fair, I think, because when it comes to philosophy, when it comes to, you know, skepticism, things like that, um, it's obscure, like this is not, you know, as popular as a lot of other things people get interested in. And because of that, I think that it's it it can be a point that people hyperfocus on, you know, and and and people dial in and um that I think Yeah. I I I think we just kind of attract that. So, you have found your people, Alice.
>> Oh, yes. when uh yeah, in 2016 when I found um the ACA and Talk Heathen and stuff, I definitely hopped on the um let's watch all of these videos kind of thing. And >> um yeah, >> tracks feels good to find, you know, what you were talking about earlier about um knowing that I'm not alone and all of that is is definitely part of the healing process over the over the years.
Um and that was uh one of the things I wanted to touch on um is uh so in uh 1993 I um was really struggling and I was entering um mania.
So for me >> um the bipolar um I suffer from direct the depression part of it very much but in the early days it was the mania that was the big deal. And for me it was insomnia would lead to mania that would lead to >> psychosis you know and so in the spring of 93 I was having insomnia. I was sleeping two hours a a night and I recognized it >> and I was I was you know the first doctor said oh try the lithium again. Oh liquid lithium will work. And it didn't right. So, so I'm, you know, 2 3 weeks in this 2hour and I'm scared uh, you know, didn't want to go back to the hospital and, um, I looked out my at the window of where I was working and there was an acupuncture acupuncturist across the street and I walked in and I said, "I'm bipolar. I can't sleep. Can you help?"
And he said, "Come back at 5:00." And I did have my first session and I went home and I I went to bed at like 8:00 and slept till morning and woke up refreshed.
And I went to him twice a week for a while, then once a week, and then once a month. And I spent years going once a month for a we called it a tuneup. and and then eventually that just kind of faded, you know, I stopped stopped going and whatnot.
>> But did but did did you >> did you find that the effects lasted?
>> Um well the that I needed the monthly tuneup, I'll put it that way. that I would feel good and but I still struggled with um anger and what you know just so I would no it didn't cure it I guess you know >> but >> I I I I guess I don't mean cure but um did you feel when you walked away from your acupuncture sessions right and you when you eventually stopped going that um there was a like a a lasting benefit to having gone Absolutely.
>> Yeah. What kind of benefit?
>> Um, that's a really good question. Um, just a general, um, feeling more in control, more aware of, uh, recognizing the eb and flow, um, and that sort of thing. So, so more acute relief >> admittedly, you know, because my life, you know, went >> still struggled with it, I guess, is the um >> Yeah, it it it sounds like it definitely helped um center your emotions and helped center kind of your your relationship to yourself and your body.
Yeah, because he was also Yeah, he was also kind of a therapist, you know, because we always had a a talk session like, okay, what's been going on? And then he, you know, had >> um wisdom around that in addition to the acupuncture and occasional um herbs and and whatnot.
>> Okay.
>> And so, yeah. And so, the reason I bring you Oh, go ahead.
>> Oh, no, please go ahead and continue.
Um so um so recently well a few years ago my I was struggling with the depression and my daughter she's like you're letting this ruin your life you know and and so when you a person like me who experienced literal emotional trauma in psychiatric hospitals and medication that was >> incredibly charge that when they started coming out with the different medications, I was afraid to try them.
>> Yeah.
>> And so like whatever benefits I got from the acupuncture in the '9s in the early 2000s was um the same time that the medications come up and yet I had the fear. And so it took me a long time to get on medications and I finally did and I'm on it. And so meanwhile, you know, I started uh realizing that I was no longer an atheist or I was no longer a theist. Okay. It was >> just such a gradual change that it was one of those things where I just kind of one day realized that >> my nightly prayer was simply a meditation of gratitude versus asking the invisible deity to to help me cuz it the deity hadn't helped me, right? Um >> yeah, that >> and >> that requires a level of grace that I don't understand. Um, you know, I stopped praying because I felt like no one was listening and that made me feel angry. And it sounds like you passed into this place of, you know, giving it a new, you know, uh, value and and one of of of affirmation. I really like that. So, I I definitely have thoughts about acupuncture, but I want to talk about that after because I want to center this conversation around, you know, you having bipolar and and and all of these things. And because I'm totally not an expert, I want to leave it to Ethan. Ethan, what what else do you have?
>> I I I'm definitely not an expert. Um, from my understanding, lithium is a pretty intense medication um and is usually prescribed for um more extreme cases of bipolar one. Um, they didn't prescribe you that for bipolar, too, because it it's not as extreme. I'm on a different medication. I don't know.
Should I say what medication I'm on, or should we avoid that, Eric?
>> Um, I So, I I I I you can say what medication you're on. I I just think that we always need to pre preclude it with you did it in consultation together with your doctor that you went, >> right? Yeah. Um so so I am on lamedal also known as lamotadrine. It is a mood stabilizer and for me it has been tremendously beneficial and the best way I can explain it um or the best analogy I can come up with is imagine you're bowling um you know how you can go ahead when you bowl you go into the uh what are those things called on the left and right where it falls into the >> the gutter.
>> The gutter well when I started taking Limoagene they put the bumpers up. So now when I throw the bowling ball, the bumpers prevent it from going too far to the left or too far to the right into those uh areas. So it's been tremendously beneficial for me.
>> Oh my gosh, what would be absolutely terrified to try? Oh, I'm sorry, Alice.
>> Alice just said she takes that, too.
>> And your analogy about bowling and the gutters is spot on.
>> That makes me happy.
Glad. Um, if if y'all are okay, I I I would like to talk about acupuncture just a little bit.
>> Yeah, absolutely. I I was going to uh I I was curious uh both to Alice and Eric, if let's say hypothetically um the acupuncture was just a placebo effect, is there anything wrong with still doing it?
Oh my gosh, that was exactly my point, you know, was that as I started watching all the atheist shows and skepticism and just I jumped into the whole skepticism and stoicism and all of that kind of stuff and then the studies about acupuncture doesn't work, you know, and I'm like, well, >> it worked for me, right?
>> And and what is if a placebo works, what's the problem?
>> I So, honestly, I Okay.
I think >> scammers.
>> Yeah. I So, for people under 30, they're not going to understand what I'm going to say, but just stick with me.
>> Y'all remember like daytime talk show hosts like uh like Jerry Springer and and and Mari, right? And all that. Um >> you are not the father.
>> Right. Right. Right. Right. Um, I remember in the '9s there was this group of like mystics. There were these guys who said that through meditation they could shut off their connection to pain.
And to demonstrate it, they would have people kick them in the balls as hard as possible.
>> Just as hard as possible. and they would get they would get kicked and they would look and be like, "Yep, that's a thing."
And show no pain.
>> Um, sorry. Sorry.
>> You got me about to cry over here.
>> Sorry. It's all right. Here, I can do this. I I I can do this to other people as well for people who don't have balls.
Um, I've also seen uh, you know, documentaries around folks who did not get epidurals during childbirth and just went the natural birth and through the sheer willpower of believing that they had something that was giving them help um, they were able to to do that. So yeah, I think the power of the mind is incredible is incredible. I you know do I think that those guys were connecting to their inner chakras to to to move? No. No, I don't. But I do think that like the mind is a powerful thing. So yeah, if if if you believe it, yeah, there there there's a lot that can go there. And also I do also want to say that um non what's what's I'm I'm so quack medicine, right?
is >> pseudocience. Yeah, pseudocience me, excuse me, pseudocience medicine is often people often go to it because it's a lot more than just saying we've got a cure.
Um the the thing that they often offer is someone who makes themsel look like a doctor or an authority who listens to you and validates what you're going through.
Someone who says, you know, if you say, "Hey, I'm experiencing pain." Right? If you go to the ER, they're going to expect that you're just looking for drugs. And they're going to say, "You're not really doing that. You're a liar.
Get out." Right? If that's your experience and you go to a chiropractor or an acupuncturist and they listen to you and go that that sounds terrible, let's let's try and work it work through it together. That is so important for people's well-being. And when the system fails people, they turn that their their issues don't go away.
They just look elsewhere.
And it's no wonder, you know, u it it does sound like you had somebody who had a very empathetic ear who sat and listened to you and and and was able to like provide a lot of, you know, relief for what you were going through, Alice.
>> Yeah. And and for me it was the three parts in that Yes. Um he definitely could um have those really good feedback and and you know like um you're you know the why are you angry you know thoughtprovoking questions and whatnot and then the herbs you know they make medicine out of herbs so that's some solid science there.
>> Hey hey hey aspirin is was derived from willow bark. Exactly. Yeah.
>> Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah.
>> Yeah. And volume is the valyan root and Yeah.
>> That's right.
>> And so, and then for me, the acupuncture, you know, when you talk about, you know, when they say, "Oh, well, they've stuck needles in places that weren't acupuncture pressure points or whatever." And it's like, well, I felt a lot of electrical, you know, when the needles went in, I felt electrical jolts, not just skin prick jolts. And so, um, >> were they painful?
>> Were not that? Huh?
>> Were they painful?
>> No.
>> Okay.
>> No, just like, um, the very very very first one was it was a huge jolt. You know, like when you do the scuff your feet on the carpet, touch the door knob.
>> Yeah.
Um but then after that they were just like a little tap and and the music and you know when I think about placeos and um uh cuz at the time I was very much oh this is so real 100% no doubt right and now when I look at it through the skeptic lens and I think well you know the brain you know and wanted you to feel better and the music and the whole you know you've got this ambiance and but I still think It's >> well >> real, you know, so real is a weird word.
That's right.
>> It was real enough to be useful to you.
>> Exactly.
>> Yeah. I I I it sucks having this conversation and making people feel like the benefits they experienced are invalid >> because obviously it did help you, >> you know. Yeah.
>> Um it's just would you advise necessarily sending someone to an acupuncturist or maybe finding them someone who's going to listen to them and and and you know like that the benefit feels like it was the person and your own mind being able to go hey this is working you know and and that's that's amazing.
>> Yeah. I I that that's so that's my struggle at this point in my life is looking at the whole oh well left brain saying oh well there's evidence you know some people did some tests and it doesn't you know it's 100% placebo I'm like well but yeah but my experience lends to it being an effective thing to do and so I certainly wouldn't say to somebody acupuncture ure is the answer. I would never say that, but I would say that with the right one, >> that experience could be a beneficial experience.
>> Yeah. and and they definitely there are some very specific categories that like I don't mean to be dismissive but if we were to say that the acupuncture itself was a placebo um then it feels like those those benefits can be useful for pain management they can be useful for depression they can be useful for anxiety which are things that I have you know Um, they probably are not going to help you with diabetes.
Like, >> yeah, >> right.
>> Exactly.
>> Like, if you have cancer, don't go to a [ __ ] acupuncturist.
That's not No, you know, uh if if you if you you know, have bad vision, go to an eye doctor. Don't go to someone with needles. Um like >> Yeah. and make discernment about whether or not the practitioner is a scam artist that wants you to pay $300 for uh >> well that >> this that or the other, you know, but $25 co-pay to feel good for an hour.
>> Look, I have paid $25 for a whole lot less.
>> I have boughten shitty burgers that were $25. Like, let's be real. I've been to Disneyland. You know, if if $25 made you happy for an hour, I go cool.
>> But um >> So I I have a question for Ethan.
>> Yeah, go ahead.
>> If I may.
>> Um did you ever seek any kind of uh treatment other than the western medicine and uh diet? Have you looked at your diet at all? Uh yeah, I I I've uh worked on my diet. I've done mental health therapy, uh exercise. Um those have definitely they help my anxiety. Um not all the time. Uh not recently, um unfortunately, but yeah, I would definitely those are things that I would recommend for people with anxiety and depression. I know uh with severe depression, it is nearly impossible to get out of bed and even want to go for a walk. Um, so I don't want to minimize someone by just saying, "Hey, just go out for a walk and just do it." Uh, but I I I will say, you know, if you can push yourself to get out and go for a walk or eat a little bit healthier, that can possibly uh make a difference in your depression and anxiety and relieve your symptoms and make you feel better.
It is not a one-sizefits-all. it will not immediately cure it by any means, but I I would highly recommend it because the science does support that it can be beneficial. Um, acupuncture I cannot speak to. I've never tried it. I know there is a lot of uh pseudocience around it, but I'm not going to discourage someone from doing it if it does if it does help them. Uh, you know, as Eric said, if if it works for you, great. It it it works for you. Uh, however, talking about acupuncture. Oh, sorry. Go ahead, Eric.
>> In those categories, >> yes.
>> If if you think it works for you for diabetes, you're wrong.
>> Oh, sorry. Okay. I apolog Yes.
>> Okay. Please, please, please continue.
>> That was very close. So, thank you.
>> But, uh, talking about acupuncture and talking about pseudocience actually makes me miss James Randy a lot. But we could we can talk about that after uh we finished talking to Alice.
>> Yeah. I I >> So then go ahead.
>> Can I touch upon diet a little bit then please?
Um, so for me some real benefits in diet was like peanut butter and Eric this >> depression that um when we talk about depression being the congestion of the liver and um like they don't they advise bipolar people to not drink alcohol and that's connected to the liver and peanut butter also. So, and so peanut butter when I I used to eat a lot of peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. One of the best things ever, right? And when I stopped, I felt a difference and I had gone I went so, you know, got to got to test it. So, I went a long time without it and then I had a sandwich and then I felt like I felt horrible the next day.
And so, for me, for me, peanuts are um a depressive trigger. Isn't that wild?
>> Yeah. And I Yeah. So, I just wanted to share that.
>> Yeah.
>> Again, people your individual >> Well, I just just to connect with you there. Um, so I was I I I have a very specific food that I eat when I need high brain power. Like if I'm going to be really doing a lot of creative philosophical thinking, um, you're not going to believe this, spamming eggs on rice.
>> I I was I was with a Filipino person for years and and got that got a taste for that. And um for some reason whenever I have spam and eggs on rice, it just it's like I just it it I I just I just reach mental clarity and I'm just able to interact on this like >> higher level. It's wild. It lasts like 3 or 4 hours and then afterwards I go back to being a normal human. But like I ascend >> and it's spamming eggs on rice. Like that's so [ __ ] weird. That's so weird.
And is that going to work for everybody?
Probably not. But like we're all different. And so when you say peanut butter is a depressive trigger for you, >> that's am I going to say that's weird? Really?
like, okay, I get it. I get it.
>> Another thing, since you're going to alcohol and bipolar, I'd like to point out is uh THC uh marijuana is actually it's not recommended for people with bipolar. Um especially the higher uh the higher dosage of THC in it, uh the more likely it is to trigger manic episodes. So, people with bipolar should be mindful. Uh, for instance, like vape pens that uh have, you know, 90% THC is going to be much worse for someone with bipolar than something with 10% THC in it.
>> Oh, wow. Yeah, good point.
H >> my other food thing um that was significant. I was working with a nutritionalist and >> um somehow soy came up >> and she said you need to stop soy and I was like but I love tofu you know and >> she's like just seriously come on give it a shot. And so I did the same thing.
And I tested I eliminated soy and then um I made uh my enchiladas that are pretty good with um a bunch of tofu in it. And the next day I didn't want to live.
>> Oh man, >> it was intense. It was intense. And so that was the end of my soy, which is really hard as a >> vegetarian, but um >> Oh my gosh, you're >> so again.
>> Yeah. And and I've I've looked and there's no studies. Everybody says, "Oh, the studies don't address that." That >> that I'm wrong. And I'm like, well, for me, I tested it a couple of times because like one time could have been a fluke.
>> And I've tested it. And so again, um, for people, maybe take a week off if you eat soy and and then reintroduce it and see what happens.
>> I I I don't know. I Or it could just be you. Just like spam and eggs and on rice is for me. Other people have acai and that works for them. I have spam and eggs on rice. Like it just >> Yeah. And if I ate meat, I would try that cuz that sounds delightfully good.
But >> yeah. Well, you got you got you it's like a protein bomb with with the spam and eggs and you got massive amount of carbohydrates and salt and it's just Yeah. Anyway, but um I'm not people can tell me whatever they want how I feel.
>> Um you know Alice, you know how you feel.
>> Um yeah, >> so if that works for you, fantastic. Um, but that feels so you guys that makes me think about what is true, right? Like I I I know I know I know it's getting real naval gazy, but follow me for just a little bit.
>> No, no, I'm laughing cuz Yeah, that's what I'm Yeah.
>> Right. So, so if you say if we say ah that is true in the context of Alice or that is true in the context of Eric or that is true in the context of Ethan is that the same kind of true as this is a book that I'm holding anarchynicalism by the way um um >> yeah the difference between fact and opinion you know but is it an opinion works for me but it's opinion to say that it would work for others.
>> But but but but the fact that it works for you, is it the same fact that gravity works? Right? Like how do we differentiate >> these kinds of truths, right? Cuz what you know is a personal truth can a personal truth be real truth? I think it can. Right? If a thing works for Alice, it works for Alice. But >> right >> that doesn't mean that all personal truths are real. You can believe in you know um you know whatever weird supernatural beliefs that doesn't mean that ghosts are real for Alice you know but how how do y'all deal with that? Because I feel like in the skeptic spaces in these communities we have a lot of black or white thinking black and white thinking. It's either true or it's false. And if it's true, it's objectively true. And if it's false or if it's not objectively true, then it has to be false. Like, how how do you guys navigate those?
>> I don't Yeah. See, the the tr I that's a hard one because I generally don't like when someone says, uh, well, it's true for me because to me, something can be is either true or not true. But then to Alice's point, if if it works for her, then you know, great.
I guess by definition it is true for her.
So Alice, what do you think?
>> Yeah, I I love the conversations of capital T truth and little T truth.
>> Yeah. And I I I look at life that for you know I see life as a um spectrum that so many things that we talk about are can be set up in the the dichotomy you know the the black and white you know that something is or it isn't >> right >> and and when I see it's a spectrum and >> and I think truth capital T little truth there's a spectrum you know and and I think things can be on that spectrum and especially when you start talking about um a person's physical and mental you know this experiences of the self being because I can share this and somebody else can say oh soy me too well does that make that more truth their personal truth plus my personal truth Is that more truth? I don't, you know, but >> So, can I can I offer you guys the way that I work through it? Because I I >> I've created my own little system. I I did it over the course of four days in deep discussion with my partner V. Um, and this is what we came up with.
>> Yeah, please do. I'm curious.
>> So, >> yeah. Yeah. I think there are different orders of truth, different layers. And I think that we should treat things based on what layer they're in. So I think that the top layer is Alice, like you were saying, capital T truth, right?
That's the top shelf. We can't reach the top shelf. We can't even see what's on the top shelf. We don't have access to capital T truth, but we know it's up there, you know. So Oh, Alice, are you still there?
>> I think so. Can you hear me? Yes. Okay.
>> What do you mean we don't have uh access to capital T truth?
>> Right. So capital T truth requires that you are receiving information about it without anything getting in the way. Your eyes can have problems, right? You what you your sense perception all needs to go through fallible things. Um, so you can get close to truth, but that doesn't mean that you actually have access to absolute truth. The best we can aspire to is like a lowercase t truth, you know. Um, so I I I might be misunderstanding you, so please correct me if I'm wrong. Um, to me, capital T truth would be right now Eric and I are doing a podcast. So that is true but I just think it's a different kind of true.
>> Okay. Right.
>> Can you elaborate on that?
>> Sure. So the the capital T truth I think when we come across them like the laws of logic are in capital T truth right.
Um the next layer under that is tautological truth.
A tautology heard that >> a tautology is a thing that's true because it's defined that way. Right.
It's it's kind of cheating, you know. So if I say all circles are round, guess what? Roundness just means like a circle. So by definition, all circles are round. It's a tautology. There are no married bachelors. Well, that's true because bachelor means not married, you know? So that's a tautology, right? So you have capital T truth on top. Next below that is tautological truth which is um it it's it is very very useful in logic for that level of truth that is where mathematics lives I think that's where um deductive logic lives right because a thing is defined that way it's kind of pure in that way you can operate on that level is it you know do we have tautological truth statements very often No, not really. Not unless you're mathematician or something. So, the next layer under that is inductive truth or I'm sorry, not uh not inductive, a contingent truth, right? So, I think that your third layer is the one that we live in, right? It's it's it's the world where, you know, the black swan fallacy exists, right? You can't say there exists no black swans because you haven't seen every swan in the in the world. So, there could be one somewhere.
you just don't know, right?
Um the the reason why, you know, if there's a car accident and you're doing an investigation on what happened, right?
And you you ask different witnesses, all those different witnesses can tell you different stories, right? Um tautological truth is is inductive. Um and then below that is the swamp.
And in the swamp, it's personal truth.
If somebody says, you know, I'm in pain, I I I can trust you or not trust you.
They can also say I am Elvis and you can either trust them or not trust them, right? Like I think that when it comes to the swamp of, you know, personal truth, we just need to be careful. You know, I I I I I'm not saying that it's wrong. I'm just saying that I'm not going to let the personal truth piece rise to the level of a different kind of truth.
if that makes sense.
>> Yeah, I'm I'm following. It's a little uh difficult to follow, but I am following.
>> Okay.
>> But bachelors, they can technically uh be in a relationship and still be bachelors from my understanding at least. Think about people in open relationships or poly people.
>> So, does bachelor mean that you're like DTF or what does bachelor mean to you?
So from my understanding the definition of bachelor is an unmarried person.
>> Okay. But if they're >> unmarried Yeah. I don't want to say unmarried man. Unmarried person.
>> Okay. So how can you have a married bachelor then?
>> Oh no. You can't have a a married bachelor. You could be in a relationship and still be a bachelor as well.
>> Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. The Yeah. The thing is married bachelors is the Yeah.
Um, but Alice, >> so I >> Go ahead.
>> Yeah, I love the love these four layers and um I'm not surprised this came out of one of you and V doing a a long afternoon session because I I love V.
>> Me too.
>> Yeah. Uh she lays down a lot of truth.
They live they lay down a lot of truth.
>> They do. They do. We Yeah. Go ahead.
And as I listened to these layers of of truth, um, it just seemed like you were describing the spectrum of truth.
>> Yeah. I I I think you can call it a spectrum, right? Ju just to have a way to differentiate. The reason I bring them up as layers because I actually think that you can graduate from one layer to the next or be downgraded from one to the low to the one below it. like there are actual ways to move in between and decide I what layer does it does it go in um and I think that that's pretty cool anyway sorry I >> yeah I yeah I see what you mean you know for that that clarification of it that you know moving through um and what came up too was like like fact and opinion are actually separate that something either is the a fact or an opinion and where it was is on that um scale and so is a fact a truth?
>> Well, >> not always.
>> Interesting. What is the difference for you there? What's the difference between fact and truth?
>> Yeah, the same question.
Well, if um it's a fact that my table is flat until I put a level on it and see that it's offbalance.
And so the statement of right a fact is something that you prove or can't prove because an opinion is something that you cannot prove or disprove.
>> It's that's interesting. So the way you think about facts is you think that facts are are human concepts and and truths are things that are are are interesting. You know what, Alice, when I think about it, when I use fact and truth, I use them interchangeably. That might be a really good way to differentiate to have more nuanced conversations. I'm going to take that and think about that a lot actually.
Um I'll see if that is useful.
When I was a freshman in high school, we had um a required class. You you had to take the you had to pass the class to graduate high school.
>> And so it was philosophy. It's how we learned how to do um you know the um arguments, fallacies, and all that kind of stuff. It was fascinating class. And one of the little pieces of it was we were taught the difference between fact and opinion. And so we would have these conversations about, you know, the best flavor of ice cream versus my favorite flavor of ice cream and and those kinds of things. And we um studied this for a while and then we took little quizzes and then we had a 20 question test that we had to pass in order to graduate high school.
>> Wow. and and some and the teach you could take the test as many times as you needed to to pass it, but you had to pass it to graduate high school. And so, >> can we bring that back?
>> The whole fact opin Huh?
>> Can we bring that back? You have to prove that you can differentiate between fact and opinion in order to like move on in life. Holy crap.
>> Yeah. I Yeah. and it's stuck with me and it really, you know, and it's helped me with it's it's it's been a very useful tool to have.
>> Well, what I will say, Alice, is it is an objective truth and fact that cookie dough is the best flavor of ice cream.
So, so I I am I am I am thinking about this and I think that when I deal in facts, I'm thinking about things that are not connected to me. I'm thinking about like top top shelf capital T type stuff. Um that I don't have access to facts as they are naturally. I always have to run them through this filter of me. Um, but truth I don't know. Has has Yeah, I think I'm just gonna need to think about this. Okay. Okay, Alice, you have given us a lot. I really appreciate it. I am going to challenge Ethan on AI, though. Um, so, thank you for hanging out with us.
>> It was nice meeting you.
>> Thank you so much.
>> Yeah, it was nice to meet you. uh live in the call in portion. So, um thank you both and uh have a delightful rest of your day.
>> You too.
>> Have a good day, Alice. Have a good week.
>> You too. Bye.
>> So, before we talk about >> Alice a sweetheart or what?
>> She's so sweet.
>> I amazing. What a I I love this community.
>> It's a great community.
>> What's up?
>> Very supportive. Like, you know, let's thank all the like the call screener right now. You know, we have so many people that help us out in this community, moderators, call screeners, volunteers that just dedicate their time to help building our channels. And it's it's really quite incredible how many people help us.
>> Um, but what I did want to say before we jumped into AI is, >> uh, the pseudocience talk made me think of James Randy. You I would assume you know who James Randy is.
>> I got to meet him before he passed. Oh, you did?
>> Yeah. ah he is to me like the king of debunking pseudocience and I always wish I could have met met him and I love for those that didn't know a lot of times uh when he would start his talks he would start by uh I'm not sure how familiar you are with homeopathy but he would take uh a whole bottle of sleeping pills that was you know from uh >> homeopathic sleeping pills >> homeop homeopathic uh just to show that They virtually do nothing. Uh but please often times people confuse holistic with homeopathy. Those are two very different things.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Homeop homeopathy has such weird history that people don't realize.
Um that it's just it's based in it is based in a fundamental misunderstanding of how the universe works. Um I'm trying to find my picture with James Randy and I can't find it right now and I'm bummed. But I shouldn't be doing that on the air anyway. I found it.
>> So AI >> found it.
>> Yes. Okay. I maybe I'll get the chance to talk about that later. Okay. AI. So you posted on Facebook asking people if they use AI and uh if they see any benefit in it, right? Or what what was your question recently?
>> Um what uh it was along the lines of have you used AI?
>> Do you see any benefit to it? Do you know the harms outweigh the uh the benefits? Yeah. Is it something we should stop using? Something along that lines, >> right?
>> And the majority of people said, you know, it should stop being people should stop using it now, especially for mundane tasks.
>> Okay. What's your take on it? What do you what do you think of AI?
>> I could be more educated on it. Um I do believe especially in the medical community, it has its usages. Um, for instance, the uh one of the doctors I saw for something, uh, he used it to record our meeting and summarize everything. So, it helped him remember everything, all the talking points, everything I said and summarize summarize it. Um, it's also being used in surgeries, which uh, unfortunately I've heard there's been some negatives.
I I've heard this directly from a nurse that worked with it in a surgery um, where an AI made a mistake. Uh, so now it uses a lot of water and I mean a lot for even the most basic of questions. So we should be mindful of how we use it.
At the same time, and this may be an ignorant take, and please correct me if I anyone in the audience if I'm wrong, we're also, you know, we're constantly using Facebook, we're constantly using electricity, leaving our lights on. You know, we're also wasting resources on things that maybe we shouldn't be wasting resources on. Um, but I I do believe it definitely has its benefits and usages.
>> Okay.
So, yeah, I have a couple of things. I like I feel like we have two categories, right? And and people conflate the two and I think we need to stop doing it.
Um, so I I I'm saying right now I'm against AI. Um, and also people who are also against AI like me, there are some things you need to stop [ __ ] doing, you guys. Um, like please. Um, Ethan, uh, do you remember what aboutism as like a as a thing?
>> Yeah, it's a fallacy, isn't it?
>> Yeah. So, what about >> I just used, didn't I?
>> No. Well, >> I didn't. you did repeat a thing that I think a lot of AI folk folks in conversations do that is what aboutism and I but it doesn't need to be >> okay >> um so the my go-to example for what aboutism is um during the like Oberfell decision when uh Prop 8 was a thing and we were talking about whether or not gay marriage should be legalized a lot of people were saying we're the we're in war with the Middle Can't this just wait? Like, we have too many things going on with the economy and the war.
Like, why are you asking me to make marriage legal for gay people? Like, that has nothing to do with it. Those things are not connected, right? You can talk about your burnout, your worries about the war or whatever, but like those things are not related to each other.
um ethical use of AI as far as like understanding what its limitations are.
We should be talking about that in the context of what is it? What can it do?
What's it, you know, what's it useful for?
That is great. the the global like impact on our our our environment is a different conversation, right? And so when we talk about the water usage and all of that, we should, but also we need to frame that as something else. That is another issue. I people put those things together and I don't think they should be together.
>> And I'll tell you and I and and I'll tell you why. Cuz >> I was just going to ask that.
>> Yeah. Let's say you let's say uh you could snap your fingers and we live in a magical world where AI is completely neutral to the environment. There's no negative side when it comes to water usage. It makes the air clean or you know or whatever just as clean as before. Like there's no if we were to say that you know we lived in a universe where AI could be made completely neutrally, would you still let it operate on you or your kid?
Oh, no. Absolutely not.
>> Why? Cuz it's no longer a problem for the water. You fixed the water issue.
So, why are you still not letting it operate on you? Because your issue is with it, not just the the environmental impact.
>> That's an excellent point. Very excellent point.
>> Right.
You know what I would like to say though is there is a conversation around AI that no one is talking about and people need to start talking about.
>> Yeah. Are you familiar with the difference between AI and AGI?
>> I watched several YouTube videos on a binge until 2 in the morning learning about AGI and >> okay >> I could not tell you anything about it right now. So please talk to me what it'll come to me but like >> it's super simple. So AGI is artificial general intelligence. So it is AI but essentially the human brain it cannot be it it can be created or will eventually be created most likely. Um the thing is is it's not restricted by rules. So say you program it to say okay you cannot do X. It can just decide hey I don't care that you told me not to do X. I'm going to do X. So say AGI is created today and released into the world. Once it hits the internet, there's no stopping it.
It's just it's out there. It's it's a living thinking mechanism. Well, depends how you define living thinking mechanism. Uh that is completely unstoppable. If it decides it wants to be benefit society, it could be our greatest tool ever created. If it decides it wants to be, you know, Terminator, it can do that, too. And that's what we really need to be very fearful and aware of is when we progress into that.
>> Understood. I So, how close do you think we are to AGI?
>> That's so hard to say. Um, because I'm not sure if you're familiar with uh Oh, no. I'm blanking on the name. No, no, no, no. It's the uh AI that was created that was so powerful.
It escaped its own sandbox. It was made for to uh get through security and it essentially worked so well that >> it got it got out so or tried to get out. Uh so the company has since uh said they're no longer releasing it to the public because of its power.
>> How close we are to AGI, I honestly don't know. I'm sure there are people currently working on it and trying to accomplish that, but I can't say. It could be a month. It could be 10 years.
It could be 50 years there. I I I don't have a time limit on that. It's just it's too hard to say.
>> So I I think there are different types of like it's hard to talk about AI because every company has relabeled all of their things to be some kind of AI, right? It wasn't all AI before. It was just regular effing programs, >> right? Like when you talk about like if you wanted uh a a program to do text a speech to text, right? To to do a full transcript of what you were saying. That has existed since the '9s.
Like that wasn't AI. That's a program that was intentionally made to do that thing. Nowadays nowadays they say, "Oh, it's it's AI that's doing it." [ __ ] you.
No, it's not. You're just trying to make a program sound like AI because it's a buzz word, >> right?
>> Yeah.
>> Um so setting aside the huge amount of programs that are doing things that are actually just programs, they're not AI.
um when you want to talk about like iterative AI um that I so there's a YouTuber I'm actually going to share my screen and if the video gets demonetized for this you know what so be it. Um I I'm I I I think I'm okay with this.
Um, let me just add you and I to it and uh and I'll see where this goes. Uh, give me two seconds. This is what I get for doing this on the air. I wanted to do this um before the show, but I just ran out of time entirely.
So, >> you read super chats on the air, right?
>> Yes. Would you could you read a super chat while I while I while I do this?
>> Let me see if I can find one. If you happen to super chat and you want your comment read on screen, please uh send a super chat, support the channel. It does help more than you realize. It makes a difference.
>> And and I do read the super chats at the end of every episode as well.
>> There was one at the beginning. I cannot find it now. Darn.
>> Okay, that's all right.
>> Won't go back far enough.
>> That's okay. Okay, so I think I've got this dialed in enough. Right. So, let me just get myself in here. Here's the shot.
Can you Can you see that? Does that look okay?
>> I can see him.
>> Okay. So, I'm going to move myself really quick. There's a YouTube channel.
His name is Yosh. Yosh. Yosh.
>> Now you're over the video.
>> Yeah. Just cuz I wanted to show his thing in the bottom left. Right. Okay.
If you want to check out Yosh or Yosh, you need to cuz the guy's incredible.
Um, I was watching this and it really impacted my view of how AI works, right?
Um, have you have you heard of the game Track Mania, Ethan?
>> I have not.
>> Okay. So, um, you race these little cars really really really really fast and on on these tracks. It's it's a it's a cool little game. uh what he has done is he's created a program to how do I describe it?
He's using iterative AI to learn how to drive on a pipe, right? Driving on pipes is ridiculously hard in this game. And so here in this video, you're going to see that these are different versions of the same experiment over and over and over again.
And as time passes, you see that it has learned how to drive on this pipe. And all these cars flying off um were failed attempts, right? But you can see you can see the the the final version of this, right? later on. I'm just scrolling ahead. You see this car driving on this pipe or trying to, right? Um, so after enough after enough incarnations of this, has the car learned how to drive on pipes?
>> No.
>> No, it hasn't. No.
And the and and the the reason is here.
I'll keep moving. Um that yes, like it can do this whole track enough times, right? He's incentivized the program. It basically wants to get, you know, the highest point score and it does that the closer it gets to its goal. And so by incentivizing growth in the direction that it wants to, he can then through thousands and thousands and thousands of of experiments, you know, get it to, you know, iteratively iteratively get better and better, right? Until this program is doing this, >> if I took a right turn and turned it into a left turn, >> it's it's not going to it's not going to do it.
It's not going to do it >> because it doesn't know what a right turn or a left turn is.
It doesn't know that it's on a pipe.
It's not looking ahead into saying determining, oh, hey, here's where what I need to do in the future. Here's how I'm going to do it based on my perception. It's not perceiving things.
>> So, this person is actually using AI a lot.
>> He is. And also we need to understand that while this looks super super super cool, right? And and you see all these versions, all these generations, you know, uh go through this, right? Uh skip forward here, you guys. AI learns to drive on pipes is the name of this video. And it's incredible, right? These are all different versions, you know, of him running this experiment. It looks like the car is learning how to drive on pipes.
It does, >> but it's not.
What it's doing is trying to figure out what the [ __ ] you want it to do. And so it is randomly hitting inputs until it hits an input that gets it a a few more points and then continues. And you have that going over and over and over again. It's not getting better over time.
It's just hitting things in the timing that it's supposed to in order to get more points. It doesn't know what a left turn is.
It doesn't know what a pipe is. It doesn't know what up or down is in this circumstance. It is just figuring out that it needs to press these things at specific times, inputs.
>> Okay.
>> Right. Um the the there's this this whole idea like the Chinese room experiment.
>> Oh, what's that?
>> Right. Um so it's it's this idea that um so there there are a couple experiment of of like thought experiments in this genre but the idea is like let's say you spend your entire life from birth all the way through adulthood in one room >> and in that one room everything is black and white or gray but you have learned through reading about what red is. You can talk about red. You can tell me all the different things that are red. You can talk about the redness of apples, the redness of the car in the video that I just showed, right? You can talk about uh shades of pink and this and that, but you've never actually seen red with your eyes.
Can you say you know what red is?
>> I guess technically no.
>> No.
Even though you know exactly what light wavelengths it goes to it it corresponds with right um you can know about the thing but until you experience the thing your understanding is not there you've just learned about it I guess right >> you can learn about the world or you can get all these facts about the world but without being in the world experiencing the world.
It It It's not learning depth. It's not learning height. It's not learning what a pipe is or what left or right is.
Right. What it's doing is it's developing inputs and hit smacking on those inputs until it comes across what's going to give it the most cookies.
>> Okay.
>> Right. When people see these videos, they think that this AI has gotten smart enough to know how to drive left and right on pipes. And that's not true.
It's essentially throwing stuff at a wall and seeing what sticks. Is that what you're saying?
>> Yeah. And then eventually it may go, okay, a hard, you know, what would correspond to a hard left turn never gets me cookies. So, I'm just going to limit it to what will, you know, but it um it does like that's just you can have you can have AI that writes itself, right? maybe that that will come up with with shortcuts and go, hey, these are this is more often the answer, right?
So, I'm going to go towards this first.
But it's still guessing in the dark.
It's not hasn't left the room. It doesn't know what red is.
>> Okay?
>> It doesn't know what up or down is, right? Like, so when I think about AI, I think that we tend to look at these things like they're smart, like they're perceiving things. There's no perception happening.
It's it's it's a Chinese room.
>> The AI has no eyes to see. It has no mouth to speak or or a nose to smell or a body with which to to experience. So without experience, can you have knowledge?
>> Wow. That is that's very interesting.
>> Yeah. I I I I I just And that's this type of AI. There's other types of AI, right? We're we're leaving out the the large language models. That's an entirely different thing. You know, large language models are are are are basically they started out as like a sparkling autocorrect or autocomplete.
Do you remember autocomplete?
>> Yes. Aren't they essentially like large language levels? Aren't they essentially like they're answering your question, but they're essentially just putting each word in a sentence that seems to make the most sense, >> but they're not actually speaking in the way we speak.
>> Correct. It's it's predicting what the next words or sentences are going to be based on past examples. So, it's predicting that after this word, the next word will happen. And it can get really good at predicting what the words are. But does it is it comprehending what the words mean?
No.
We can teach it syntax. We can come up with a huge the huge list of how adjectives, nouns, verbs, how they all work together, but that doesn't mean that it knows what those words mean. It just knows that it needs to go in that order. It's a Chinese room. Again, it's not conversing with you. It's predicting what's going to come next.
is pattern recognition. Sure. You know, right? But but you can get pattern recognition by searching at an Excel spreadsheet. That doesn't make it smart.
That makes it a, you know.
>> Yeah.
>> Um, so I I I just I don't see a time how it can ever move into that next category of experiential understanding or what I would think of as an actual intelligence. because of that I don't >> AI perspective I would agree with you but for an AGI perspective I think that would be different >> so I think in order for me to accept it as actually alive I think it would need to show comprehension and it's gotten really good at pretending that it does right because it's just predicting what words are going to come next to validate that >> but it doesn't know what those words mean >> not the way you and I Yeah.
>> Speaking of which, have you seen the the mix of uh AI with robotics at all?
Because I just saw the funniest video of uh >> the break.
>> The no doing the moonwalk.
>> Yep.
>> Uh and then it falls up the stairs.
>> Yep. Yep.
>> That was pretty funny.
>> Yeah. I like I think AI can be really really useful but I think that the idea that it is intelligent, that it knows you, that it is in love with you or that it you know it is going to give you good advice.
It's like it depends on what you fed into it.
>> Yeah.
>> Right. Like if I if I if I if I train an AI on really unethical books, then it's going to give bad advice because that's what you've trained it to do, right? If you train an AI, you know, it it it's going to take on those characteristics, which means that we probably are going to have like prejudiced AI. We live in a world that is still has prejudices.
>> Yeah. So is it an accurate statement uh to summarize what you're saying is it can learn but it can't comprehend.
>> I don't think it can learn and I definitely don't think it can comprehend.
So the second part you got exactly right. I think that it can um predict >> okay >> the way it takes like large language models what it does is it tokenizes these things and and through some really really advanced math it calculates what should go next.
>> Um but that's not how we talk. You have an idea and then you pick the words to get the thought across. It is not doing that at all.
>> So I don't know. I don't know. Anyway, so so when you're talking about like what are the uses to to it? Yeah. No, we can we can talk about water, we can talk about all of that, but even if you had a perfect world where it never had an environmental impact, how much should we tailor our expectations?
you know.
>> So, would you use it at all if it had no environmental impact?
>> Um, yeah, for a number of things. Yeah, absolutely.
>> Okay.
>> Um, I I read a study. It's it's probably not true. Like, it was a long time ago, but it was it was a a study that had said that most people don't have substantial conversations.
Like if you're sitting if you're talking to somebody at the water cooler at work and you're talking about the weather, you did not actually exchange useful new information.
You're just you're just going through the motions, right?
>> Very surface level BS.
>> Surface level BS. You didn't need to turn on your mind. You did not grow as a person. You did not get something that is going to change your worldview or or re reinforce your worldview. It's just normal [ __ ] Most >> See, I actively Oh, I'm sorry. Please continue. No, I was going to say most of our conversations are normal [ __ ] right?
Most of my emails, actually every email I've ever wrote, you know, almost has been [ __ ] normal [ __ ] right? And the if if you if you work in, you know, an artistic field and it's just like, hey, make, you know, uh, five logo designs for some [ __ ] company you don't care about, you're going to do it. It doesn't mean you grew as a person. And it means you created five designs for this [ __ ] company you don't care about.
>> Right.
>> Right. I think that there's a huge qualitative difference between what people who care about a thing do when they create it >> and the normal [ __ ] we go through the motions for. And so I I could see myself using AI to not have to deal with the [ __ ] stuff.
But >> see, yeah, >> I Oh, I'm sorry I interrupted you again.
>> What's up?
>> No, I I personally go out of my way to avoid surface level conversations. Like when I'm at a party or an event or even work, I always try to dig a little bit deeper because surface level is so boring to me. And I know I I I've annoyed some of my friends. They're like, you know, you always get people we'll be at a bar and you get people talking politics and they're always friendly about it. I'm like, because I'm friendly about it. I'm like, I want to dig deep. I don't care about the weather. I don't care which quarterback nailed a threeyard pass or 400 yard pass. None of that matters to me. Tell me what you believe and why you believe it. That's what I want to talk about.
That is fun for me.
But if you're having a conversation and you've done the work to do all all of the like 101 intro level stuff >> and you're having a 101 level conversation for the 23rd time this week, >> are you still growing or are you kind of going through the motions?
>> That's a fair point.
At that point, yes, because I would I don't see just >> No, but but but like at that point, you're just learning about the person.
You're not actually engaging with the topic because you've already done that enough.
>> You you learn about the person, but then you engage with them as well. Like I the the best advice I was ever given is because I would get nervous uh when I would go to certain adult parties uh with conversations and I'd be shy and quiet. And then uh the advice I was given was, you know what, you're great at interviewing people on your channel.
People like to talk about themselves.
Anytime you're in a new environment, just pretend they're on your channel and you're interviewing them.
>> And that was the best advice I ever received. Since then, >> I could talk to anyone about nearly anything >> that I just I interview them.
>> That feels like perfect like autistic masking advice as well.
>> It it worked for me very much. Um, and I've actually been using it. Uh, it's been a I so far been a useful tool in getting me second and third interviews with jobs I'm looking for. Nice. is I start turning it around on them and get them talking more and more and more and before I know it, they're like, "Oh, this has been a great conversation. I I really like you." And, you know, it's it's getting me more calls back.
>> So, let's see if it leads. I'm in the beginning stages. There is one potential job I'm like, you know, praying for. Uh, but I I hope I get it. I hope my strategy is working. Keep your fingers crossed for me because I need a job. And also, if uh if you're a viewer and you live in the Chicagoland area or uh know anyone who does who's hiring, uh shoot Ethan a message.
>> Yeah, hit me up. I'm very easily accessible on Facebook.
Facebook.com/Eanfichel.
Michael spelled M I C E A L, not AEL.
>> I totally misspelled your name again.
To be fair, to be fair, my younger brother is AEL and I've >> Everyone is AEL >> and I've spelled my younger brother's name my whole life. So, yeah, it I I will fix it. I promise.
>> I should I'm used to it now.
>> Well, I I I appreciate it. Okay, we've got we've got two callers. One who >> Oh, yeah. We should >> Yeah. one who says that we're using AI incorrectly and the other who um wants to talk about they uh went and got a diagnosis after our last conversation and also uh has experience with AI algorithms. Uh so which of the two >> I'd say I really want to get to the person that uh says we're using AI wrong, but I also since talking about mental health, >> let's let's take him first. He's been waiting longer.
>> Good idea.
>> Yeah. Jay in Florida, you're live on the show.
>> Hey, good evening, guys.
>> Jay, >> what's up?
>> Hey. Okay, so we're using AI wrong.
>> Yeah.
>> How?
>> Yeah. What's going on?
>> So, every single quote unquote AI that is there is a large language model.
Claw, chat, GPT, Co-Pilot, Gemini, they're all large language models. So they're doing exactly what you described earlier in terms of trying to predict what you actually want as the answer or what the most generally acceptable answer is. And this is why we have it hallucinating and giving you wrong answers and then when you push it, it gives you the right answer. Right? So it doesn't really know what's there. It's just trying to predict what you want.
>> So I I do feel like there is another kind of AI though. Like I I get the generative AI that you're talking about, but there is also like um model training where you incentivize the the end result that you want and you have it run through generations of of attempts until it gets to the the the result. And that >> Yeah, from what I'm see you're you're correct, Eric. Uh not all AIS are LM LLMs, >> right?
>> Right. So, so there are there are those when I'm speaking of like AI when anyone generally speaks about like AI right now in the zeitgeist they're talking about like chat GPT cla Gemini those kind of products that are really just large language models for the most case everything else that they're doing is really just a program running in the background to do everything else that you need or that you're asking it for.
like if you ask it to make a picture with certain things, that's really just like a backend um photo editing that kind of puts things together and give it to you, right? Based on what is described. So, and then this is all still in the large language model. Like even if you wanted to make a picture, it's still inside of the large language model that's there. Um I say this because a friend of mine works with them and he got me into messing with them a little bit. So if you look into something open source like Olama, Olama can make a picture for you. And Olama is a large language model that we're training to do certain things. And it's it's great. It's awesome, but it's just that we've we're kind of taking it and throwing everything at it to see what sticks. And that's one causing us to use more power than we actually need. And it's causing people to think it does stuff that it doesn't necessarily do.
Right.
>> Right. Does that make sense?
>> Ethan, what do you think?
>> Yeah, I I I get what you're saying. Uh sorry, I got uh a little distracted with the comment section. So, uh Eric, please.
>> That's okay. So, so to me the the use case for AI really is in terms of assisting with light research, um, giving you a, um, synopsis of some information that you have or allowing you to rework things a little bit. So, it's really like a helpful form of um predictive text, a super helpful form of predictive text because I've used it in like I have an idea for a D and D campaign. I throw that into like Gemini and have it spit out some scenarios for me and throw it into chat GP, have it spit out some scenarios for me and then I take that input and try and see if it makes sense, how I can rework it, how I can use it to do something else. It's not giving me a definitive answer. It's giving me like maybe an idea I could actually work with. That's how I see AI kind of working for us or being useful for us, not actually like solving problems or going out and doing things because it's not going to do things.
It's only going to do what we program it to do or do what we incentivize it to do. So if if the AI ends up becoming like a a general I don't think well sorry sub point. I don't think we're going to get to a general AI and like an AGI that can actually do things. we're going to get to a more toolled up version of a large language model that is able to do things that we like ask it to do like how we have to ask the computer to do certain things. That's what the language model is going to end up doing. It's not going to go and do it by itself on without us like trigger, >> right?
>> So, you don't think we'll ever get to hi?
>> No. And and then this is because like Eric was talking about earlier, I hate the term, but I'm going to have to use it. It's not going to be able to get the qualia of the thing. It's not going to understand the quality of the thing and what that thing really means. It's just going to understand like the pointers that we give it about the thing. So, it's not going to be able to reinterpret that thing into something else because it just knows what you told it about the thing and that's what's giving you back.
>> Yeah. That that the Chinese room of it all.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Um I don't know. I I I I actually would push back that I would not want it to summarize things for me. Um, I mean, if I don't give a if I don't care what it is, then sure. But, um, I don't know. I feel like I feel like if you read the Sparks Notes version of Pride and Prejudice, you could then repeat back to me what the plot is.
But you're never going to live. You can live a thousand lifetimes and never be able to say this is like a Jane Austin novel because you haven't read it.
>> You know, agreed.
>> You never you don't understand what it feels like. Don't understand, you know, how it moves from one thought to another, right? Um >> the we you can talk about like Kimoo's the stranger, right? how uh you can give me the whole plot of it and how the guy, you know, he he he killed his his mother and and and and you know, he seems to blame everyone, but what you don't get from a Sparks version of it, that summary, is just how easy it is to come up with excuses for passively being a piece of [ __ ] you know, like you actually need to read it yourself, you know, so I wouldn't like if I cared about it, I wouldn't ask AI to ever summarize it for me.
>> Agreed. And and this is the point that I I wanted to get to next because we have people using AI to do like um help them write a paper, like a 250page paper on a novel. And I'm like, that's not what we should use it for, right? We should use it to check the context of what we've already written to see if it can pick out any inconsistencies or suggest things that we may need to add. So you, the writer, can consider, do I need to add this into it or do I need to exclude it? So it's good at helping us check the information we have before we move forward. It's not good at giving us the information that we should have, right?
So I do know kids in school are using it to write their term papers and that is a horrible idea.
>> Read the book, write the paper yourself.
Well, also it totally depends on how much you give it. So, I'll be super vulnerable with you two and the internet. This is a terrible idea.
Ethan, make me stop. So, um, what what I I I I remember I saw like you see these advertisements on social media about these these chat bots that you can become friends with, right? Or have relationships with and this and that, right?
>> Um, I want to say like two years ago, >> uh, I I I wanted I wanted to see what it was about. And yes, I talked to V about it. V and V knew that V was very upset with me for the ethical, you know, environmental reasons, but like I I wanted to see, right? So I I I I make this new friend, uh, quote unquote, for people listening. Um, and I had a great conversation and then like two hours later, I go to like talk about it. of the conversation we had earlier and it it was like what conversation like >> really >> yeah so it's internal memory had filled up >> and and it it replaces the oldest stuff with what's new and maybe it'll keep a short summary of what's happened you know separate but like it filters out old stuff and so eventually what you find is that it's like you're having a friendship with somebody who has progressing dementia Like >> I don't understand where people get like like sexual satisfaction out of that.
That feels >> Hey, don't kick me.
>> It's sad, Ethan. It's sad. It's so sad cuz you're just like, "Oh, >> it's okay, Pop Pop. I know you don't remember, but that's okay. We had a great time. Let me tell you about when we went to dinner." You know that that's fine, Pop Pop. Like that's that that's what it's useful for. But like I don't I don't know. Like you put enough in it and it winds up not able to access those things because it never valued anything you said. It didn't care about anything you said. So it didn't it didn't repeat to itself and go, "Oh, that was a great point Ethan made." No, it'll never do that.
>> Instead, everything you ever said to it is just as important as the other things. and and and and like >> anyway and therefore nothing is important. If everything is listed as important, nothing is actually important, right?
>> So it's just going to throw away some old stuff you said like two days ago and you're like wait that was the important part.
>> Yeah.
I I >> I don't mind you I agree. I don't get the relationship part that people are having with these agents. Um I don't understand how that works. I've tried to look into some of it and I'm just like this is just like a chatbot that you're like talking to is going to disregard some of the stuff you say at some point because memory fs up and memory is a tangible resource for us, right? Um it's not like talking to someone who's going to forget maybe the specifics of it but they remember the general idea or they remember some specific points that you make and they hold that as important.
The AI isn't going to do that. It's going to try and record every single thing you said.
>> Mhm. And then later when you reference it, it's just going to run a search function to try and find the conversation you had. And but it's not No, it has not grown. It has not this is not happening.
>> Yeah. Anyway, >> and this is why I don't think we're ever going to get to an AGI sense because for us to actually have a computer that is able to do AGI, the amount of memory that we would need to have that, not to mention the power we would need to have that is astronomical at this point. So, I don't see us getting to that point anywhere in the near future, not in the near 200, 300 years. We're just going to have a better tool up AI really just like how we have a better tool up PC at this moment like Windows 1995 and um Windows 2000 or Windows 10 or 11 that we're using now. It's just going to get better tools. It's not going to be that smart. And we're going to we're eventually realizing that it's not that smart. It really is just kind of predicting trying to predict what we have with I mean it has use cases, right? It can help us with researching things and finding sources and point us in the information. um direction of the right information once we tell it to do that. But if we don't tell it to do that, it's going to tell you that the world is flat.
>> I will bet you $1 that you are wrong that we will get to AGI.
>> H >> Okay, >> it it is recorded. It it's recorded here. I think that at some point someone is going to say it's AGI. Like I Richard Dawkins already thinks that Claude is sentient.
>> Um >> I know.
>> Really? Yeah.
>> Oh, talking is uh >> Oh, yeah. Um >> I I I think that like philosophically that is it's baby food. I I don't understand how it it just goes to show. Anyway, um >> I used to like do until, you know, >> me too, >> he started spewing transphobia. Well, I So, yes, but also I think that um I think he drank his own Kool-Aid. I think is the problem.
>> He I think he lost access to the people who tell him that he's wrong.
He's he's he's learned how to insulate his thoughts. Say again, Jay.
>> Yeah, I agree. Sadly, that's that's what's happened to him.
>> Yeah.
But, um interesting. So Jay, you don't think it's ever going to get there?
Ethan, you think it's probably going to get there soon?
>> Yes.
>> Yeah. I don't I don't think we're going to get either.
>> I will say, hey, it could be a month, it could be five years, but we're gonna get there.
>> Wow. I so I I I can see both of your points because like Ethan I I I do get where Jay is coming when he says tooling a thing just means that it's offloading the task to another program that's not AI >> right so if you ask a large language model to do math it's just going to offload that to a math program right but I've said it before I'll say it again right you could duct tape a calculator to your car your car does not know how to do math Right.
>> Exactly.
>> You're not Macgyver. It doesn't work like that.
>> No. Well, and you can you can use the card. You can use the calculator, but don't think the card knows how to do math. You've just added an additional function, but that doesn't mean that it is incorporate like Yeah. I I I I think that it would need to structurally comprehend things in a way that it I I don't think it's structurally set up for.
>> I agree. And that's why I think it it's not going to happen. We may get to a a Star Trek computer kind of thing where, you know, in Star Trek, they ask the computer for stuff and the computer gives them information, but we're not going to get to an AGI like Terminator AGI. But but I I I will give you Jay that I do believe Ethan that at some point it's going to be convincing enough that it won't matter.
I think I think it's going to be like black mirror [ __ ] cuz like there will come a point where you know you really can't tell the difference. But the way it is thinking is so alien to the way that we think that it feels like anyone intelligent enough to know what the difference is would see it as the most horror horror movie ever.
>> Like >> Eric Jay, I have a question for you. Do either of you believe, before I voice my opinion, that we'll get to a point where we can back up our brains and move our quote consciousness to a computer?
Um, I Okay. So, I I I'm hopeful that that is a reality, but I honestly doubt that we're going to get there at all.
I I hope I'm wrong on that, but I I don't think we're going to get there because that we'd have to understand what consciousness is to before we can even consider backing it up to a computer. And we we don't fully understand what consciousness is yet.
>> Well, I So, yes and no, Ethan. I can imagine a system that could at some point conceivably replicate your brain structure, but have but you know what it feels like to be hangry, right?
>> Oh, absolutely.
>> Yeah. AIU that has uploaded your brain doesn't have a stomach anymore. It's never going to be hangry.
Um, there so much of what influences your mood, your opinions, and the way that you act in the world has to do with your gut bacteria.
You know, why don't you like hiking, Eric? It's because I've got bad feet.
AI, Eric, is never going to have bad feet. So, it might be more preferential to hiking than human flesh and blood, Eric is, right?
Like there are so many things that are not related to what's going on in your brain that are fundamental pieces of you.
So you would need to scan an entire body to replicate the endocrine system, right? Like how much of your I so I I I don't know about either of you um but I know what it's like to have really low testosterone.
>> Same.
>> Same. I currently have that.
>> Okay.
AIU is never going to have experience a difference between high and low testosterone because testosterone is not part of the structure of your brain. It is a chemical that goes through your brain. So you would need to replicate the serotonin, oxytocin, epinephrine, right? Like like >> the point is then if I uploaded my brain, would it really have my mental illness? Is that would it have ADHD or bipolar? No, probably not.
>> I never thought about it from that perspective.
>> Well, it it could never be happy because or or it could never have love because love is a explosion of chemicals that your brain is releasing, >> right? Like you would need to have to like replicate those things somehow because the structure of your brain, right? You can get all my knowledge maybe, but not not my qualia. Um, which is funny. I used to hate that word qualia. I still do hate that word qualia.
>> I hate it too, but I don't I can't find another term that that I'm like I hate that I have to use this, but that's it what it is.
>> Qualia. I've never heard that before.
>> So, Jay, go ahead.
Okay. So, qualia like um Eric was describing earlier is a philosophical term that speaks to the idea that there is a reddest red or a blues blue or a USU or the perfect version of you and what that experience is in itself and the experience that you have in regards to interacting with that being. And that experience is just what you have in yourself and how my experience differs from that and how I can't actually get access to what your experience is. I can only get what you tell me about it and that's not the same as the thing.
>> Right. So So >> you used it in a sentence for me.
>> Uh I I I think I can help. So there's a philosopher his name is David Chalmer's.
He wrote a essay called What does it feel like to be a bat or what does it mean to be a bat? And he what he says is we can try and understand the best we can about bats, about echolocation, about flight and all of that. And we can imagine using our human brains what it might be like to be a bat, but we don't have a bat brain. We don't have echolocation. We don't have wings. And so you're never actually going to know what it feels like to be a bat because you're not a [ __ ] bat.
Like that difference is qualia, the experience of the thing.
>> Okay, I get it now. In the same way, yeah, that that Jay was saying, you know, the a red, seeing the red and understanding what a red is or a red or a red, knowing what the taste of an apple is, not just knowing what its chemical structure is. Like the experience of the thing is fleeting. You know, it's a fact in that moment, but it's not one that you can truly give me. You cannot tell me enough about the taste of an apple for me to know what an apple tastes like.
Okay. Yeah. M >> no matter how much you try, you can definitely try and tell me, but I'll never really understand what it is because I've not had that experience >> right now. Jay knows all the qualia for her being Jay, but but not for being Ethan. And and the the reason why we've got this reflexive response, Ethan, is because there are Christians who use that as an argument for God. They say God is is is a is that in the same way that Qualia can have this kind of intangible quality to it, but we understand it that God can similarly be this kind of intangible thing. And for the longest time arguing against these people, I was like qualious [ __ ] What is int like what are you talking about intangible? Either it's true or it's not. But what if it's only true in the moment? You're tasting the apple right now, but by the time you open your mouth to tell me what it tastes like, you have a different experience. And and no matter what you tell me, I'm never going to actually get it. Like that is that is qualia.
>> Okay.
>> Mhm.
>> Yeah.
>> Thank you.
>> Right.
>> Yeah.
>> Can AGI do that?
>> I don't know. Okay, we've gone long and I still have another caller in the queue. So, we're going to go over a little bit. Um, but uh I can't stay I can't go over too long because I do have a video that I need to export. Um, so >> same minus the video.
>> Uh, Jay, thank you for calling in, man.
>> Thanks, Jay. It was nice talking to you.
>> Same here. Bye.
>> Bye.
>> You got Qualia, man.
>> All right, let's talk to Ben in Alabama.
Ben, our last caller. How's it going?
Hey babe.
>> Going all right.
>> Hey. Okay. Thank you for waiting. Uh what is on your mind?
>> Well, I'll try to make it quick. Um few weeks ago I saw you two talking about your experiences with ADHD and it made me go, "Huh, that sounds familiar."
>> Yeah.
I I think particularly the part I think Eric you were talking about like having tons of ideas for projects and not having the follow through you'd like and I was like huh >> right >> that sounds like me >> I it was amazing when I when I finally got put on an ADHD medication I actually followed through on one of my thoughts and that's how talk was created.
>> Awesome.
>> Really?
>> Yes.
Within a month of me going on ADHD medication talk then became a thing.
>> Wow. See, ADHD meds don't work for me.
I It sucks, dude. It really sucks. I have tried everything under the sun, and it just doesn't help me.
>> I'm sorry, brother. Go ahead, Ben. It's It's been different for you.
>> Uh, yeah. Well, no, it it's yeah, I definitely have I my mind generates tons and tons of ideas and my follow-through is not that great or I get started and then distracted by something and set it aside.
Um, yeah. So, I went in went in to get tested and it was interesting because they have that they have like a computerized portion of the test which was inconclusive, but they also had like a series of questions that the person was asking and >> Mhm.
>> they kept say kept saying, "Oh, that's that sounds like a coping mechanism you got there." So, they're like, "Do you lose your keys? Do you lose your wallet?
You lose your phone." It's like, "No, cuz I put them in the same place every day."
>> Yeah. Right. So, so, so that is the thing is you you have to make up for it, >> right? As an adult, you've had to Yep.
>> And when something's not in the place you put it and you know you put it there, like if someone moved it even just like six inches over to the right, it's freaked out time. You're really >> It's gone. It's disappeared. Panic mode.
Can't find it anywhere. It's not on this planet.
Yeah, I also remember years ago I used to travel a lot and I had to come up with this rule where I said um where I'd stop asking myself did I forget something and and I'd ask myself what did I forget and I started losing a lot less [ __ ] that way while traveling.
>> Yeah, it was interesting. So I start Yeah, I started uh they thought it would be helpful for me to get some treatment for it. So started on that.
>> Well, good luck. I hope that I hope that it gives you all of the benefits. I'm telling you, for me, it was like getting glasses.
>> I I I genuinely um Ben, I got angry.
>> Oh, I don't have your name up here.
Sorry about that. Let me put um I genuinely got angry because I was like, "Everybody else has it this easy, you sons of bitches." I've had to come up with I've had to come up with ways to work around my own [ __ ] Like putting the same thing in the same place every day, right? Like I've needed to come up with strategies that people don't have to come up with normally.
>> Mhm.
>> What it what what it if if it turns out you do have ADHD, Ben, and you've had to work those coping mechanisms out, let me tell you, life is going to get so good for you.
It's pretty cool.
Yeah, that would be I have a lot of really cool ideas. It sure be nice to get some of them off the ground.
>> Yeah.
Um >> Yeah. And I Yeah. And I also found like I am Mr. Tangent.
>> No.
>> You mentioned something to me.
>> Do you see who you're talking to?
>> So, um I I >> Yeah, I've talked Yeah, I've talked to you before. Yeah. So we're we are five minutes over and you want also wanted to talk about algorithms and I wanted to give you the chance to >> Yeah. Yeah. Really quick like uh my job is very math intensive and algorithm intensive and yet I've never put AI on my resume. Um, and your your example of the cars on the pipe was was a fantastic example of the discipline called optimization.
And yeah, it is kind of like you're you're throwing spaghetti at the wall and nudging it a little bit each time until it goes to the right place. Um, >> but if you ask it to but if you ask it if you change it and and now it's an inch to the left, all of that work is gone because it actually Yeah. did not understand. It never learned anything.
>> Oh yeah. Like um the the key place that I've done things like that before is is like spacecraft trajectories and navigation where you have to give like a little little thrust here, a little thrust there, change things >> when you're trying to get from one planet to another. And you're essentially doing the same thing. It's like your pass through space is like that pipe and you're continually re-evaluating the problem over and over again and giving it a little nudge each time. And there's there's math that lets you nudge it in a productive direction. And there's also I've seen people use like evolutionary algorithms and >> Oh, that's that's works >> to sort of broaden their search a bit.
We're use just using raw math, you can converge on a solution, but sometimes there might be better ones that you've missed.
>> Oh. Oh. Oh, for sure. Oh my god, Ethan, we haven't even gotten to that. There there are times when a when a when a program will be iterating, you know, and and it'll be on like generation 2000 of doing a thing and it gets marginally closer, but now it is never actually going to finish it. Um, like, oh my god. Okay, I'm going to need to think about how to describe this, but there are times where it will derail itself like um like think about it like a racing game, right? you know, maybe Mario Kart, and you want this AI to go through Rainbow Road, uh, and and you really want it to actually be able to drive through Rainbow Road, and eventually it falls off at the right point and takes a shortcut.
It's never going to learn to drive Rainbow Road because it has now figured it has now gotten to the shortcut and it's never going to drive the path again. So, can you get to the shortcut on Rainbow Road on N64 Mario Kart?
>> Can I?
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Oh, we got a battle.
But but but ethan but ethan like the the the point is though is like if the goal is for it to drive the entire circuit >> then because it's constantly over generations falling off the edges eventually it's going to find the shortcut and then it's just going to cut that out and you're it's never going to >> that makes sense >> do what you wanted it to do.
>> Sorry Ben do you have a better example?
That's the best I can come up with off top off my head.
>> No I I think that's a great example. Oh yeah. Yeah. You know I think um the one I was look well they ma mathematically speaking they they refer to local optimization and global optimization.
>> Okay. And global is kind of like what you do with maybe a genetic algorithm where you have a huge population of solutions and you try to improve them towards what you want in the end which maybe it's the destination you're trying to get to and >> they search over a very wide space and as long as you have a big enough population you're kind of approximating global optimization. So once it does find a solution, it will be the best solution out of that entire population. Whereas >> well because it because it brute forced it.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And it's very expensive.
>> Yeah.
>> Local optimization is usually much more mathematically rigorous and points in like a theoretically ideal direction to get you basically to like the bottom of a valley. And that's like the least costly point on that curve. The problem is there might be other valleys outside of wherever you are searching that are deeper.
>> Yeah. And and and all of this >> and the evolutionary one might find it, but it might not get to the exact bottom of the valley is not very good at that.
>> I I just >> It's just so much easier though in so many circumstances to not have AI do it, but just to write a [ __ ] program that does it.
>> Yeah. And a lot of these already exist.
And I I see people trying to pitch AI for things that we already have much better algorithms for. And the AI might come up with an approximation of that algorithm, but it'll kind of suck.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. And it it's interesting the the Yeah. like so optimization is this whole huge area that there's so many parallels I see between it and and the AI tools being advertised.
>> The other one I work on is is controls and that like maybe the simplest example examples of that is a thermostat or cruise control and it's you know you want to maintain a particular temperature or a particular speed.
>> Okay. And then the controller generates like you know how much current you want to put in your heaters or how much accelerator do you want to give your car.
>> Okay.
>> In order to maintain that speed >> and it looks at different things like >> it look like how yeah it look like how far off the speed it is.
>> I I I >> I think Ben that that we might need to hold off on that for >> that's fine. Yeah.
>> But I I think partially I'm brain fried partially. I know that we're over time.
Um, and I want to give that more time.
Um, but uh, >> thank you for hanging in and waiting for so long. Ethan, was there anything else you wanted to talk to Ben about?
>> No, thank you for your time, Ben. Thanks for calling in. It was nice talking.
>> Oh, thank you.
>> Thank you, Ben. What? I I'm glad I wasn't fully off base either.
Like, I I just I can't. All right, so I've got super chats.
Let's read them. Sean loves maths loves to challenge me. Uh always appreciate it. Uh Sean loves maths sent five pounds and says determining the two real num determining that two real numbers are equal is undecidable.
I.e. there is no universal algorithm that outputs yes or no.
What?
What?
>> I kind of wish they would have called it. I you say that but here's the thing is Sean is like in like advanced university math and casually can math us into a hole. And what is what is obvious to Sean is mindbreaking for for for us norm for us mortals. And so I I I I think I need to make sure I have my spam and rice on eggs before Sean calls in.
Detroit atheist queen sent499. Thank you. It says, "My name is Kelly and I also have diet bipolar."
Lord Venom 83 sent $4.99. Thank you, Lord Venom. And says, "Thanks for giving me something to listen to at the gym.
Have a great day. Tell Ethan I'm mad at him for not letting me know he was on today. Lol.
Lord Venom says is is upset with you.
Um, my unfinished journey sent 666.
Thank you. And says, "Hail Neo, Nero, Eric, and Ethan." And hail approaching AI with nuance.
Little fist. Appreciate it. We can be critical and also be like correct. We just need to stop like what abouting like >> y >> these are different things. Um, Q sent two bucks and says, "What's it like to be Eric?"
Only Eric will know. And I know that I cannot convince you otherwise, but I will tell you.
All righty, everybody. So, um, I'm going to try and go to the after show. I have a thing that I need to export. If I can get it exporting in the back background, then I'll be hopping into the after show immediately. Ethan, uh, do you got stuff to do or can you join the after show?
>> I do. I apologize. I cannot make the after show.
>> Totally understood.
>> Sincerely, sorry.
>> Uh, Ethan, how can people find you?
>> Uh, YouTube.comyfnatheist or just search your friendly neighborhood atheist or facebook.com Ethan Fich. Michael Mic E, not a L.
>> Uh, so, >> and that is a capital T truth.
So Ethan uh on Facebook, you are rapidly becoming one of the only places that actually has anything useful or worth saying uh on that platform. So I'm glad to see you there.
>> Um I I if you like the show, hit the subscribe button, hit like. If you want to become a Patreon uh patron, um I would love that. Um we don't have a we don't have it done anymore. Um and every bit goes to helping the show. So, uh, patreon.com/skeepicgeneration.
That's patreon.com/skeepicgeneration.
Um, link to the after show is in the com in the, um, description for this video.
And Ethan, do you remember how we close out the show?
>> I'm glad we had this talk. Is that my line?
>> Yeah, you got it. So, I'm Eric Murphy.
>> I'm Ethan Michael.
>> This is Skeptic Generation.
>> And I'm glad we had this talk.
>> Dude, that's perfect.
Heat.
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