Creating connections and managing tournaments with Lee Carsley | Coachcast extra-time

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[00:00:00]It's not really about the tactics. It's not really about the the X's and the O's or how you press or how you build. It's the way the players feel when they get onto the pitch and the confidence that they've got and and just enjoying playing football.

[00:00:10]>> Today, we're joined by a special guest, England men's under21 head coach Lee Cosley.

[00:00:15]>> You've got to get to know the person first before you can you can have the right to coach the player. I don't think grassroots coaches should underestimate the influence that they can have on players, good and bad. The amount of information that some of the coaches are giving the players, it's far too much.

[00:00:27]Just just almost let them play. What do you think is a key factor in successfully managing tournaments?

[00:00:33]Nothing.

[00:00:38]>> Hello and welcome to a bonus episode of Coach Cast by England Football Learning, the coaching podcast that brings you insight from people across the game.

[00:00:46]We're Jamie and Louise and today we're joined by a special guest, England men's under21 head coach Lee Ksley. Oh, hi Lee. Welcome to the show. How are you?

[00:00:54]>> Thank you. Yeah, really good, thank you.

[00:00:56]>> Really nice to have you with us.

[00:00:57]>> Oh, thank you. Thanks for asking us.

[00:00:58]Now, everybody knows that you are the man that led the Young Lions to back-to-back European titles.

[00:01:04]Congratulations, by the way. But they might not know about your journey to get there. So, to start, at what point in your playing career did you first think about going into management?

[00:01:13]>> I'd maybe been about 29, 30. Um, I was currently playing at at Everton at the time. Um David Moyes was to be fair was someone that pushed us towards a lot of the players not just not just myself pushed us a lot towards co getting your coaching badges and trying to understand the game a little bit more in the organization that goes into it. Um and I definitely think from a from a a tactical point of view it definitely helped me um have a little bit more um awareness of some of the sessions that he was putting on and why why he was doing it and and how it was affecting the team. So uh but I've always enjoyed I've always enjoyed the coaching bit. I started um doing a bit of volunteering at at Solio College on my days off on a Wednesday. So, while I was still playing at Everton, so we'd get Wednesdays off.

[00:01:56]So, I'd go and um and plan and deliver a session with a a friend of mine called um Mickey Moore, who was who was in charge of the college program at the time. So, we he he taught me through how to plan a session, but the um where it fitted in into the game that we were going to do then in the evening. know go home, have something to eat, come back for the the evening game and try and take the team. So, I realized quite quickly that, you know, even though I was playing in the Premier League and and internationally at a high level, that I was coaching at a very low level uh and that I was almost almost below a novice um because I was seeing the pitchers in the game too quickly without being able to break them down to how it fits into developing a player and developing that player's attributes. So I um I realized quite quickly that it was something that I needed to if if I was going to have a prolong career in coaching that almost had to go back to the the beginning.

[00:02:45]>> You can kind of see that it was really valuable kind of do seeing both sides of it I guess. Yeah.

[00:02:50]>> Do you think while you were playing do you think that influenced the way that you wanted to be as a manager like the knowledge that you had from there? Yeah, I think I think um yeah, if if you know if anyone listening or or watching this see me play would probably say that um my teams don't play like that, you know, and I definitely don't coach like that, you know. I was very um I played in a structured team that were they were they were high energy but quite aggressive.

[00:03:15]Um and I understood that for me to get into that team, I had to play a certain way. So, um, coming through as as a younger player, um, I'd like to think that, um, you know, to get to the the point of of getting into the Premier League that, you know, you you you're able to fulfill a role that the coach is looking for or they or the manager is looking for. So, I realized that there was many um there was many facets that you needed to have in a team and and components to to coach a team. So, and maybe a commentary when I first started, you know, the team that I coached, um, the the youth team, Comry City youth team under 18s, which would have been my first job, um, they were very well organized, very structured, but maybe not very good to watch. So, I realized that to get to get the better out of players that I I needed to be a lot more adaptable as a as a coach to to the players attributes as opposed to my my um, you know, my understanding on how the game should look. And you mentioned your first time coaching there with uh Coven City under 18. What was that first experience like stepping out onto the grass coaching for the first time?

[00:04:17]>> Yeah, I was lucky that I was I was put into an an environment with Gregory and Rich Stevens um and the coaches around me that they give me that they give me that space to make mistakes. A big part of of my my coaching was realizing that and I suppose this would be a really good message for some from some of the grassroots coaches like it's it's not really about the tactics. It's not really about the the X's and the O's or how you press or how you build. It's it's the way the players feel when they get onto the pitch and the confidence that they've got and and just enjoying playing football. And um you know, them two that I've mentioned, Gregor and Rich, really gave me that space to to go make mistakes, but not to the detriment of the players. They always put the players first and and these these were the messages that I was constantly getting. So part of my role was to coach under 18s, but to also do the the midweek team on a on a Wednesday night with under 15. So, I was massively immersed in coaching and and player development and and some of the players were ahead um of my learning. So I'm I'm thinking um Callum Wilson, Cyrus Christie, um James Madison, they were already at a really high level and I was I wasn't ready quite ready to coach them kind of players. But you know, quickly I I suppose one of the um I suppose one one of my one of my strengths is that when I know I'm not very good at something, I I make a make a point of getting better at it and asking the right questions and and practicing. So um but luckily enough, I was in an environment and a and a culture to have that space. you know, I wasn't a manager that went from playing one week uh or a coach one one week to to managing in the in the Championship or the or the Premier League, which must be very difficult. And I've got a lot of respect for for players that can do that. But I was really aware that because I was playing at such a high level that my my reputation was was higher than my ability. So, um yeah, that comra was a perfect club for me. It's really good to have that as a reflection, I guess, and just being able to kind of look at yourself and >> see where you fit and know where to develop.

[00:06:12]>> What's the thing that you enjoy most about coaching?

[00:06:15]>> I enjoy seeing players progress. I enjoy the um the the relationship and the connection that you can that you that you can create with with a player and a team. And as much as, you know, I'd I'd like to think that you can really influence what they're doing on the pitch. It's off the pitch where you have the most um or or some of the most gains because you've got to get to know the person first before you can you can have the right to coach the player. And and that's something that that I learned quite quickly. You know, if if you can create a connection with a player, you have to have the right to I suppose it's like, you know, I've got some really good examples of of teachers that were in my school and I was I wasn't a fan of school, but for some reason I was really good at games and really good at PE and I liked history. So, and then when you think about it when you when you grow up and you get a bit older, it's the connection I had with the teachers that were really passionate about the subject or took the time to spend more time with me um or and really paint the pictures.

[00:07:06]Um so that that that became really um really important to me.

[00:07:10]>> It's quite nice there really where you're saying like that you remember the teachers and that you're quite fond of like what do you think are the most important skills that a coach needs to maybe have that reaction from from a player to a coach?

[00:07:21]>> I think I think you you have to be enthusiastic. You have to have energy.

[00:07:24]You have to you have to sometimes paint um unrealistic pictures in terms of where you think that player can get to or that team can get to. Um you know, you have to you know, and I'm I'm sometimes really unrealistic with my expectations of the team and the players because, you know, why can't we why can't we produce the best players in in Europe or the world? Um you know, why can't we why can't we go every tournament we enter? Why can't we try and win it?

[00:07:50]um and to to to push the players to to believe in that because there's a there's a big difference and we spoke about it in the summer between you know hoping that you win something and believing that you really can win something. Um and I suppose it's it's exactly the same with development. You have to believe in first of all what the the the information that you're given and you have to give the players time then to to to get the best out of them and and to practice and um not assuming just because you've told a player something once that they've got it and that's it. You can move on. It's um it's spending time with them.

[00:08:19]>> And if you were to um think about all your coaching experiences that you had up till now, what advice would you give to your younger self if you were kind of starting from scratch again?

[00:08:29]>> Yeah, I think um patience is a big thing. I think um you know, any coaches that that are involved in development football, you know, development doesn't happen in an hour or 90 minutes or however long your game is. It it happens over a longer period. and recognizing the the ups and the downs. Um when to when to support, when to push, when to challenge, but patience would be a big thing. Um and I suppose there's there's, you know, I really I really I look back on it. So I done my B license really quickly, straight onto me a license, straight onto my pro license, straight onto me LMA manage uh diploma. You know, I just got them done so quickly. I've been in a better position now at 51 to do my coaching badges because now I understand what it's like to coach a team, what it's like to organize, um my expectations of how quick a team can move forward. You know, I'm now in a better position to and ready mentally to do my badges and to learn and to ask better questions and so patience would be a big thing.

[00:09:26]>> Do you think that's about kind of just so doing a qualification and then just letting it settle and try it out?

[00:09:32]>> Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. But you know I was in such a cuz I thought that's >> you need >> yeah you need a you need your pro license you need your A license you need your B license so it's such it was just a conveyor belt of maybe 5 years and I'd done everything so by 40 I I was done but I only just got been coaching you know 10 years at that point and sometimes you don't realize what you need until you actually you're on the spot and and you need it. So an example of that would be um getting fast forwarded quite quickly through 18s next season get promoted to 21s halfway through the 21s my my second full season caretaker manager. Uh so being being in the dugout at um at the Rico Arena managing the the senior team totally out of my depth you know completely out of my depth like tactically and the understanding of game management. Um, but because of my reputation as a as a player, you you get you get elevated into that position. You know, if you know, and at that point, I' i'd done most of my badges. So, you know, I think if I'd have been a little bit more patient, you know, I'd have been in a lot better position than than um than just being thrust into it and and hoping for the best. I think, yeah, I'm obviously I'm in a lot stronger position now than I than I ever was because I've been able to yeah, slow down and and see what I'm what I'm good at, what my strengths are. I suppose it was good to have that chance to try it though and go it's kind of not where I am right now but kind of come back and see >> definitely I think you know I think if if I'd have if I'd have carried on down that route I'd have probably been a manager that would have at this point in my career have managed maybe I don't know two 300 league games but been sacked two or three times and had different jobs. So, you know, I definitely made the right decision of of taking a backward step to, you know, to to go forward and to, you know, luckily enough now I'm in the position that I'm in because, you know, I was um was a bit more strategic in my decisions that I made.

[00:11:19]>> There's a couple of powerful messages in there, which is like I say, taking your time to learn to absorb the knowledge, but then actually giving it a go and getting on the grass and honing your skills that way. And then the second is like we've mentioned before just like your reflection and your awareness skills to to understand where you are and how you're wanting to develop.

[00:11:37]>> Um along with those pieces of advice, do you have any advice to give to coaches that maybe are at the start of their own journeys, whether that's at grassroots level or maybe looking to be in the professional game?

[00:11:46]>> Yeah, I think I think as as much as you scour the internet for tactical information and um in inspiring team talks, it's all about the players. It's all about creating that connection with the players, creating an environment where they can practice and they can feel safe and you know it's you know the tactics and the um yeah the x's and the o's will come a lot later on. You don't need to you don't need to worry too much about that. you know, if I was to and by my house, we've we've got um there's two or three pitches where sometimes if if I've got a bit of time, I'll go for a run and I'll I'll watch maybe 10 20 minutes of a grassroots game. And you know, I'd definitely say the the amount of information that some of the coaches are giving the players, it's far too much. Just just almost let them play. Um let let them enjoy the game. And you know, I think there there's there's a time and a place for them to become serious. And you can see that the you can see the kids are desperate to win and and that's and they're trying their best and yeah, I'd almost go less is more. Just let let them in let them learn to to love football and be with their teammates because as as they get older there'll be a chance for it to get a lot more serious. So that's what I definitely encourage.

[00:12:49]>> Absolutely.

[00:12:49]>> Sounds like part of that is to do with the environment and like you mentioned that what what kind of environment do you like to create and how do you go about making that?

[00:12:57]>> First of all, it's it's got to be professional. Um, you know, we've we make no um we don't hide the fact that when the the 21s come in, there's there's a definitely a level of of expectation of what we expect. We talk a lot about ownership and responsibility because, you know, the the players spend a lot of time when they're not around the coaches, but we still expect them to behave properly and and be respectful and and all the things. So, that that you would expect. Um, ownership and responsibility is a big thing for me. um you know something that I that I that I look back on when when I was playing that you know when things were going well for me it was down to me and when things weren't going well it was also down to me. So it's it's very it's very easy to to point or to blame and to you know to to try and um try and expect someone to to help or or or push you in the right direction. You know you you need to take a right responsibility especially especially around um you developing making sure that you're developing yourself. you know, that that would be a big thing for me. And like enjoying the enjoying the you being around your teammates, enjoying coming on international camp. That's a big thing that we that we um that we try and push because um you know, we know it's we know they're under pressure, the players. We know it's it can be stressful. So, we try to remove as much of that as we can um and and just give them chance to be you know, act their age almost, you know, the 19 and 20 year olds. And >> what values do you like to instill in your teams? And do you have any advice to help coaches do that with theirs?

[00:14:20]There's a lot of things that we that we look for. Um I I I speak a lot about myself in general is that when when I first uh when I first started coaching the this would have been a while back.

[00:14:34]We were um there was a big thing on what your philosophy was. So you know there's there was a there was a rush to get a th00and point uh PowerPoint um document on every single every single um phase of the game. So which I which I thought was so complicated and and it was so far away from where I saw football. So I thought if if I can hon if I can be honest, if I can be u if I can be respectful and if I can give players time, that could be my philosophy because you know the areas of the pitch where I want to create an overload or the way that I want to build or the way that we want to attack or the the the art of 1 v one defending and your body shape and your position and your timing and and your speed of approach and all them things, they'll come. They'll come.

[00:15:17]But first and foremost, if you're honest with players, if you're respectful and you give them time, and time is a big thing. Um, we try and spend as much time chatting about their their their lives, um, chatting about their development, chatting about how they're getting on, you know, that's a that's a big thing because, you know, you know, from from a time point of view, we're not we're not getting any back, so let's not waste any. So, they're the three things for me that that I would look at and and then ownership, responsibility, uh, attitude and application in terms of how the team looks. uh your attitude towards your teammates, um towards the referee, your application, how hard you work, um how hard how hard you work when things aren't going great. These are all the things that we look for in our team.

[00:15:57]>> That ties in quite nicely to the next question in terms of like actually getting to know players due to tournament cycles and players progress into the senior setup, you often do get to work with quite a few new players.

[00:16:08]So, how do you find that experience first and foremost? And do you have any top tips to help coaches get to know their players and build relationships?

[00:16:14]Yeah, I think um what I've just touched upon there, like the amount of time that you spend with the players, I think if you know if as informal as you can make it, that's what we try and do. I think if if I was to if I was to say right at at 9:00 a.m. on Monday, come and see me, we're going to get to know each other and and and create a connection. It just wouldn't work. It's so stiff. So, we try I try and they're all here from a under 21's point of view. They're all here to play football. So, we thought it was a good idea that as soon as they get here, we played football and we got out there and we, you know, we had small side games or possession or whatever and made it as fun as we can. Um, and that's when you get to know the players. You know, you you see that, you see their behaviors. You see how they're interacting with their teammates. We obviously go and watch them at their clubs. We spend as much time um off the pitch with them as we can talking about how they're getting on and, you know, their some of the issues that they may have. And I think if a player realizes or feels that you care about them, it's a big buy in. And it's got to be genuine. It's got to be genuine. And um we're very lucky that the staff that we've got are all invested in player development. And with that then becomes, you know, a good success in terms of the, you know, the first the first Euros we go to, you know, we don't concede a goal, you know, which is a good achievement and then to tend to repeat it. Obviously, we we conceded a couple of goals in the last Euros, but it's not it's not my environment. It's not my culture. It's it's the FAS and it's the staffs and it's I don't think you should you should count on one person, you know, to because like if if I if I left the 21s tomorrow, it wouldn't stop. It carry on and they'd be fine. Uh and it' move on because the you know, we've got some really talented members of staff and and people that support the the team and the squad. So, you know, my advice would be it's not about one person. It's about the the amount of people because I've seen it the opposite way where you can have the best environment, the best culture, and it only takes one person to be um you know, dishonest or to not be respectful or to be um you know, not not rowing in the right direction and it can it can unsettle the whole squad.

[00:18:15]>> Obviously, all players have different kind of needs and stuff like that. Do you have any tips to help coaches kind of with their practice design that kind of can help different players and the different needs?

[00:18:26]>> Studying the players um asking them as well. That's that's a big thing that we look at what you think you need to work on, communicating, talking about it because I don't think we we you know, if I said to a player, we're going to we're going to work on your shooting day because I don't think you I think you can improve on it and the players thinking, well, I think that's the best part of my game. So, how can you make me better? So I think that the communication levels between you know ask ask the players what they or ask the player what what what do you want to work on how how do you think and how can we help and rather any practices that you've done before that that you've that you've enjoyed. Yeah. I don't I don't think we should you from from a coaching point of view and from an um an attitude point of view should you almost should remove yourself from the decision and speak to the players about obviously that this would depend on on age groups as well. it's if it's an underage team, you can be a little bit more leading.

[00:19:16]You know, I'd look at, you know, ball mastery and all these kind of things and and manipulating the ball and then dealing, you know, with with pressure and in terms of like contact and and getting used to rolling your body and your hips and all the rest of it. So, yeah, speak to the players.

[00:19:29]Communication is a big thing. We spend a lot of time with our players, especially and these are, you know, 19, 20, 21 year olds that are playing at a very high level working on their game, you know, and they're still doing that when they're on camp for for 10 and 20 minutes at the end of every session. We give them opportunity to to work on some of the things that they think they can improve on. So, you know, don't just assume that players at any level can can do it. They they all need to be given that opportunity to to practice. From a buying point of view, if you go to the coach and say, "I need a bit help with this. I need to to work on this." You know, you you get that back you get that back double. I think sometimes you you have to lead the players into the into that decision. But yeah, they're they're definitely a lot more aware and and you can you know, you can you can help players and and you know, be aware as well that everything isn't on the you know, the biggest development is not always on the on the pitch. It's not always in practice. It's them. It's almost the penny dropping where they go, okay, yeah, maybe I need to get a bit quicker. I need to, you know, I need to be able to turn it a little bit faster and this is where it fits in. So, just that communication.

[00:20:28]>> Well, while we are on the topic of training, I think it'd be a good time if we do go to our Swift session feature.

[00:20:34]>> Yeah. So, it's a little task for you to try and have a go at. So, we're going to give you 30 seconds on a timer and we're going to ask you to explain a session idea to us in those 30 seconds. It goes quite quick, but are you up for the challenge?

[00:20:45]>> Yeah, let's go.

[00:20:46]>> Okay. I'll show you a timer.

[00:20:48]>> Okay. So, I went to a I went to a school um about 6 months ago where I didn't know how many players I've got. So, I've got I think I had 20 players. And it was a simple game of of 40x40 box. And it was a simple game of I started in the middle as the as the um you have to like the tag. So you had to catch a player.

[00:21:07]Once you caught a player, you had you worked together then as a pair. So So I caught one player. So was now now me and another player. So that's two of us.

[00:21:13]Then I caught then I caught three. So now we had three and a two. Anyway, we ended up with we ended up with a four, a four, and a two. So I put us in I put us in position. I was still I was still playing. Well, I was I was getting quite tired at this point to be honest cuz I was chasing after these kids.

[00:21:28]the it was a really good practice to get the understand the kids understanding of working together and working as a team and it was a so simple and they were these girls boys um I'm not sure a lot of them played football or into football but it was how long is that 29 seconds >> they were like 29 minutes or something no it was um it was over but I think the setup and the just discussing around it probably took the time over but the actual so we we'll give you that >> I remember it because I we Um so there's about there was about not on timer anymore there was Phil this this um this guy called Phil be who's a be able specialist he he's come and done a work of our team he's very good he's he's worth looking up if you get chance he um he said oh would you come and do a bit of co I was on my way to Embley to do one of the squad selections so would you just come and do a quick session with the with the kids so I was like yeah so I was like gets there I've got one ball and one astr turf >> and all these kids and I thought it can do so I thought it's called bulldog remember we used to play at school bulldog Yeah.

[00:22:27]>> So I goes, we start playing Bulldog and then I'm thinking I've got a I've got a system here.

[00:22:31]>> Yeah.

[00:22:32]>> It was and it was and we started pressing. So I've ended up doing it with doing with the 21s and it's it's really good. It is it's different.

[00:22:38]>> Yeah.

[00:22:39]>> It's a quick way. It's tactical.

[00:22:41]>> Yeah.

[00:22:41]>> But >> I guess it's good to see that it kind of transfer all the way up which is really good. It was good.

[00:22:46]>> Yeah. I know. Massive. Love that like tag playground game activities.

[00:22:49]>> 40 minutes. That was that 30 seconds was it?

[00:22:53]>> I absolutely love it. Well, Lee, we've spoken about training, so it only feels right to go on to match day now, and you've had some pretty big ones recently with the under21s. So, during your time leading the Young Lions, you've won back-to-back European titles. Obviously, in 2023, beating Spain uh 1 nil and I think obviously saving a stoppage time penalty as well for that one. And then obviously uh last year uh 3-2 against Germany to to to win the tournament again. um two different squads. Yeah.

[00:23:23]And two very different ways of winning.

[00:23:25]Uh firstly, do you have a favorite out of those finals? And then secondly, what learnings do you take from 23 and 25 to go into the next tournament?

[00:23:34]>> Yeah, I think I I I always remember the first meeting that we had with the last group um of setting the target of winning it again um and being better than the the previous group. But, you know, when you're putting the when you when you put all the stats up on on the the previous group, so the the 2023 group, you know, to go through a tournament without conceding a goal, it's a it's a big it's a big ask to to repeat that. So, we definitely won the last tournament in a different way. But what's what's definitely um comparable is the style that we did it. And like I say, it's not my style or my way of playing. It's definitely an under 21's way of doing things. Um we I realized that that we had to be different. There was no point us doing the same as as as what everyone else has doing or what we've done in the past. So definitely two different tournaments but most importantly what what we what we did was we gave we gave um a platform to the players to show how good they were and we have some outstanding players in our in our system and we have in the younger age groups as well but you know that first group to to go through first of all a group stage and then um a quarterfinal semi-final and and a final without conceding a goal against some really really good teams um you know was such an outstanding achievement. I'm not sure that's going to be done again. Um, and they should they should take a lot of lot of credit for that. I think if that had have been televised that tournament, I think them players would have got a lot more credit than what they than what they did. Obviously, the second the the last campaign was televised, which was brilliant and it shone the spotlight on to the team. And um, we won it definitely in a different way, but the the the main things were that they they attack so well. um they had belief that they could score. They had belief that they were going to win games even the game that we lost against Germany. Um you know that sec first half wasn't wasn't great. Um but but the second half we were outstanding and I know and I knew that if we had a chance to play Germany again that we beat Germany and I actually said it to the to the to the coach he was coming out of the press conference as as I was going in and I said I'll see you in the final.

[00:25:43]And um he started laughing. He must have thought yeah good one. I was like, "Yeah, we we're all right. We're okay."

[00:25:48]And the the players are in in good form and they, you know, it's it's quite the expectations that you put on the team to start at the start of a tournament.

[00:25:56]You've probably got 5 days, six days prep, then you're into your first game, and that's that team's first game. So, that's almost like a preseason game, and then I just I just felt that the the longer the tournament went on, um, the stronger the the squad got. Um, yeah.

[00:26:12]So, so definitely winning winning in a different way. What was better or what was worse? I'm not I'm not sure. I'm not sure. It was, you know, to to beat Spain. Um, Spain, I love watching Spain.

[00:26:23]Like, they're a really good team. And the most pleasing thing was after the Spain game in the press room, which um which which is is a is obviously a big a big room with a lot of lot of European press in there, the the press spoke about that the England team looked like a Spanish team. And I'm not saying that's good or bad, but in terms of the style that we played with, we controlled the play. We attack really fast. Um, so like the part of this job I believe is changing the perception also of English coaches and and and English players. And I think um I think that we're definitely going in the right direction.

[00:26:56]>> Absolutely. You got some phenomenal players, very technical uh and some really enjoyable matches to watch. What learnings then from those two tournaments do you think you might take into the next one? Well, the I think I think expecting that there's not a blueprint. So, it's not a it's not a copy and paste. Oh, we've done that last time, so let's do it again. And I think it's it's a it's a good one for for for grassroots coaches or anyone dealing with with young players is that they're change. They're constantly changing. So, you have to adapt quickly. And and just because I've got in my mind, this is how I think the team should play and this how I think we should um attack or defend, you have to play to the players attributes. So that last campaign was totally different players um you know to to um the previous the the 23 campaign.

[00:27:43]So we you know the challenge to the to the coaches and to the the whole of our staff the MDT is that think differently.

[00:27:50]Don't just think that we can we can repeat what we've done in the past because because it's worked once it doesn't mean it's going to work again.

[00:27:56]And also just because you know we've got special players doesn't make us special.

[00:28:00]We have to make sure that we keep improving as fast as the players. So, like I say, very lucky with the with the staff that we've got cuz they're so committed to developing people and players.

[00:28:09]>> Like I say, I really like the fact that it's like you need to look at your squad, you need to look at the teams, and even at Grassroots, like look at the players you got and see what they need.

[00:28:16]>> Yeah. And they're like, you know, even as as as basic as with age and experiences and we had 20 23 players in that squad as well as 20 four 25 members of staff um that are away from home for four or five weeks. They've all got families, all got everyone's got things going on and and just just just, you know, so sometimes even though you're in a tournament, football isn't the most important thing that's happening in their life at that point. So, it's it's making sure that you're you're watching you're watching people, you're watching the players and the and the staff when they come down for breakfast or they're at evening meal or or you know, you know, their moods or they're up, they're down. So, and it's it's it's making sure that you're taking time to, you know, to speak to people. I'm lucky that I've got a really good staff around me that are, you know, very um conscious of of people and yeah, yeah, I miss I miss a lot of it. So, it's definitely not it's definitely not um a massive strength of mine, but it's something that I'm aware of. it'd be um good to get a bit of insight into your your approach to certain things. So um in the 2025 final um what was your tactical thinking for that as well as kind of how you approached it?

[00:29:26]>> There was a lot of different um tactics that we changed a little bit um for the final because I think Germany hadn't been beaten for maybe 18 months, two years. They were they were they were very strong and um Walter me was uh was was probably you know one of the strongest players in the tournament. I think he might have been top goal scorer at the time. So a lot of our game plan was based around throwing a net around him. We called it making making sure he was constantly in the middle of a of a triangle and and the triangle players would sometimes change um depending on where he was on the pitch. So we we recognize that, you know, he was a strong player. But it from a game plan point of view, that was probably 10% of it. You know, the the players would have gone into that final thinking a little bit about him, but massively about themselves. The we thought that we could score. We thought we could attack. We thought that we could dominate. Um we we thought that creating overloads in in wide areas was going to be a big thing for us. Make sure that we were we were aggressive the way that we pressed. We knew that they were going to um we thought we actually thought they'd be a lot more aggressive with the way that they they pressed, but they let us have the ball and build and then they they changed the way that they set up. So, there was a lot of things um during the tournament that we that we that we changed to affect the players or the team that we picked. Um but any any any team that we set up, we me it as much as we can about us and where we can hurt the opposition. And um but we did spend maybe a little bit more time and or an awareness of these are the kind of positions that this this player may get in and their best chance of scoring is through this this player. So we made the players aware of that.

[00:31:04]>> And how did you manage the match as it was happening? It's >> very calm. I think I think you I think it's fair to say if if anyone would ever see me on the side um you I'm not overanimated. Um it's different in training. It's different in training when you when you're coaching. they they need to feel how important the game is and the the intensity um and making them aware of that. I don't think match day is the time for that. You know, you see, you know, you see a lot of coaches um you know, and I suppose some fans as well expect the manager to be running up and down the line and jumping up in the air, I don't think that helps the players one bit. I know from from a personal point of view whenever I'd look over at a manager and he was bright red, shouting, waving his arms at me, you know, I wouldn't I wouldn't be listening. You know, he wasn't he wasn't getting my attention. If anything, I'd just be thinking just sit down like like leave us let us go on with it. So, um I've got some really good staff with us.

[00:31:54]Um James Ryder, Ashley Cole, um Tim Dipma, um James Ridden. We've got some um we've got we've we're constantly getting physical data coming through. We have the we have the we have the live data in terms of the momentum and and how the team's attacking or not. So, we um I thought we managed the game really really well. Um obviously, we won the game at at 2-0. We encourage the team to score, to keep scoring. We don't want to defend a lead. And you'd seen that the way that we played. We ended up drawing the game 2-2, but you know, constantly attacking and and sometimes you have to you have to um keep reminding the players that this is how we're going to win the game by outscoring the opposition. I don't want to defend the lead. I want to defend the lead by scoring again and creating um panic and um and making the opposition change. Um so that was that was the that was the big message. you know, at Halime you come in um and the the the I think we just conceded a goal just before Halime so it was 2-1 and up until that point we were we were so in control and you have to remind the players of that because you know you could you could see that that the that the the goal against the deflated them a little bit. That's where that's the role of the coach then is to to instill belief to remind them of the the 44 minutes that they've done really well and how how strong they look and the the impression that you're making and give them that energy and they've done that so well. And I think I think also as well where where we managed the the the tournament really well is the amount of substitutions and the times we made the substitutions. you know, on 60 65 minutes, you know, four players were coming on, which meant that the the squad felt like it was one team as opposed to there's the starting 11 and these might these might be involved. You know, everyone realized how important they were and there was there was two or three players that didn't get any minutes that were that was so invested into the into the squad as well. So, it was um there was a lot of there was a lot of things that went on off the pitch that were that were so helpful towards us.

[00:33:47]>> Just a couple of questions from that.

[00:33:48]Uh, one, do you have any top tips for sort of keeping players motivated and and believing obviously in the game plan, in the philosophy? Uh, and then second also you mentioned obviously your calmness, calm presence on the side. Any top tips for coaches to stay calm and and kind of manage their emotions and behavior?

[00:34:08]>> The belief one, I think that's done through that's done through repetition of message. So, um, that's not that's not a a massively inspiring speech just before they go out to kickoff. That's that's the last thing they need. You know, you don't need to be reminded that you're playing in a European final against against Germany. They're fine.

[00:34:27]They understand that. It's that constantly constantly tapping the messaging of of of this is where you're going to hurt your the player that you're playing against. This is what we need from you today. So, it's that it's that buildup to the games. Um, it's the spending time with the players. It's the communication. It's them. It's them giving them the opportunity to to feed back to to how they think they're doing or or where they think they can affect the the game. So, I don't think that happens just on a just on a match day. I think there's there's definitely a buildup to that. And it's it's not a switch that you can switch on and off. I think it's a it's a constant um reminder of a message and a buildup to to a match as opposed to, you know, we've al we've all seen um we've all seen films where there's a you know, an iconic speech and then they go out and win. It's, you know, it's very rarely like that. It's there's a buildup and a and a belief. It just doesn't it just doesn't happen.

[00:35:18]It's a it's a it's a constant reminder.

[00:35:20]And managing my emotions, the message I would try and put across is that, you know, it's not it's not about you when you're on the side. It's not about you.

[00:35:26]It's about the team. Um, and I think sometimes, you know, and it's, you know, it's it's it's only my point of view. I think I think a head coach and a or a manager should almost remove themselves from I often hear, you know, that the team is a reflection of the manager.

[00:35:42]They're not the team's a reflection of themselves. It's it's if you talk about ownership and responsibility. The manager is a vehicle to get them organized and into in a position where they can and create a culture and environment where they can perform. you know, it's um you know, if if a team's massively reliant on a manager, you you might not have the right team. Um so you you almost want to you want you want players that are that are self-managing that can that can manage under pressure, that can perform under pressure.

[00:36:10]Fantastic. Um now we've got some data from uh the game insights team in the education department. Uh looking at the tournament as a whole, 90% of the goals that were scored were inside the box.

[00:36:22]Yeah. And 57% of those were scored from within the sixyard box and the second sixyard box, >> including the winning goal from Jonathan Row in the final himself.

[00:36:31]>> So how do you prepare your team to get goal scoring opportunities in those key areas? And do you and your staff use game insights to create game realistic and relevant practice?

[00:36:40]>> Yeah, I mean Ash and um Tim do a lot of finishing practices around the edge of the box in the box. I think getting the getting the balance between the chances that they're and the practices they're putting on being too easy. So I often say a chance can't be that easy that you miss. So it's a it's a it's a demand of the coach that if you know if you're in in the front of goal and you miss and you miss you know that's not acceptable and especially with with with the level of players that we're working with. So it's that pressure and that that demand that you put on during the session of of the areas, but understanding that, you know, this is practice. So, you know, some sometimes having that feeling of of of using your weaker foot and and scoring into an empty net is fine because it's and but you know, the almost painting the picture of this is this is practice. Get used to get used to the the feeling of contact on your weak foot and then listen to the ball hitting the net because it's a nice noise. The basic practices um you know, shouldn't shouldn't be underestimated.

[00:37:39]and we use a lot of of areas of the pitch and and sometimes we'll use it as um a ways of motivating the players and showing them chances that and the areas that they've got into and and giving them chance to to shoot from that area.

[00:37:50]So having the iPad with us and you know an example of maybe the last game against I don't know Republic of Ireland where you had a chance in this area.

[00:37:57]Look at look at your technique. Look at your balance. Look at your body position. now a practice and it's just that that building up that confidence that you know if you can uh if you can get used to hitting the target and scoring goals it's a it's a nice habit to have and and from a midfielder's point of view shooting when there's bodies in front of you I've seen a lot of practices where you know the the the player will roll the ball to the coach on the edge of the box coach stops the ball moves out the way the goal's there just the goalkeeper and the player shoots I've never ever seen that happen in a game like ever so I'd be aware of some of your your practices have to be realistic because if if that player gets the opportunity in a game, but it's totally different to what they've been practicing, you know, it's just something that it's really simple. I mean, just throw loads of cones in in the in the area or or stand in the way or or push them or shout or clap or distract them as they're shooting.

[00:38:46]There's lots of ways that you can do it.

[00:38:48]>> Yeah, it's that important to get repetition, but also to have relevance so that it is realistic to what they're going to face on match day.

[00:38:54]>> Yeah, definitely. Yeah. And I think it's, you know, we try, we try and and and and any grassroots coaches that would come and watch some of our coaching sessions that we do with the under 21s, they are messy. They're not they don't look great, but they're so realistic and they're so they're so relevant to the to the players and the level that they're at. I think sometimes when some of the sessions when I when I go and watch some coaches, it's so clean and A passes to B, B passes to C, C passes to D. Doesn't happen in a game.

[00:39:22]like you're constant, you know, you're constantly getting closed down or or under pressure or your teammates are shouting or, you know, and then if if you can just add someone putting a little bit of pressure on, then there's a big influence then of of making sure it's the right pass to the right foot at the right pace and then then it's that then it's the receiving skills and being able to turn under pressure and which way do you turn and where's the pressure and where can you feel it? So, it's um it's moving the practice on. I think there is definitely a there's definitely a need for unopposed practices, but it's it's moving them on quite quickly and then going backwards and then then trying them again and then going backwards. And I don't think you you just do a you know um an unopposed passing drill, you know, and then linking it. I can't you know, the players just can't pass to each other on a match day. I won't be surprised.

[00:40:06]>> Yeah, that's really good message. Like a key takeaway there, just like linking, relevance, repetition. Now, when this episode goes out, uh the men's World Cup is just around the corner. With your experience of uh international tournament football, what do you think is a key factor in successfully managing tournaments?

[00:40:24]>> I think picking the right squad um that's that's a that's a that's a a key thing. I think um when you're away from from home for 5 weeks um you know the motivation levels of of the players that are on the outside of of maybe not starting as many games that's so key to the to the um overall success of the squad um you know you know talking from a a personal point of view in in 2002 going to the going to the World Cup in South Korea in Japan with Ireland and and not playing many minutes um you know it was real frustrating experience you know, you're you're desperately trying to be a good teammate, but you're almost looking at when the last game is so you can so you can get home. So, something that I've I'm constantly thinking of is is making sure that you're communicating, speaking to the players on the outside of the of the starting of the starting lineup and and almost like speaking to them before you name the squad and before you go out there of of putting them in the picture of where they fit in. So, you know, no one's going out with there with unrealistic expectations that they're going to start every minute of every game. you know, being honest and upfront really definitely helps.

[00:41:28]>> And if we think about um coaches specifically, how do how do you maintain your well-being as a coach in that high pressured situations?

[00:41:35]>> I think you always get that feeling of, you know, you you from from an example, you win the first Euros and you're like, "Right, that's that's just pure relief because we haven't won it in so long."

[00:41:46]And then you win the second one and you're like, "Yeah, that's just relief again." And it literally by the time and I'm I'm trying not to I'm trying not to exaggerate. By the time you get off the pitch, you by the time then you've done the press the press conference and then you're back in the dress room, you're almost thinking about the next one cuz it's, you know, as much as the players and there's there's a sadness because you know there's a there's a group of players there now too old to go in the 21s again. So that squad's gone and and you want them to want them to progress in their careers and so you're thinking about you're thinking about hopefully they get full caps and they go on to represent um the senior team and all the rest of it and then and then on the plane on the way back then I'm looking at the next cohort of players just to trying to see all right what does the next squad potentially team look like.

[00:42:32]So it wears off it wears off very quickly. So, I don't know. I'm not great on the >> Do you spend a bit of time? Do you take time for yourself? Do you know?

[00:42:41]>> No. No.

[00:42:41]>> You need to.

[00:42:42]>> I know. I'm not I'm not Yeah. I mean, if if my if my wife or family watching this, they'll go, "Yeah, awful question to ask him." You know, I like watching football. I like going to games. I like developing players and being around players and and teams and, you know, I'm excited watching the the Premier League and the Championship and and the drama that goes with all that. So, but it's definitely something that definitely something that I need to be better at.

[00:43:03]So, anyone out there's got any tips, let me know.

[00:43:06]>> I can recommend just a little bit of meditation or something every so often.

[00:43:10]Just breathing techniques might be good.

[00:43:12]>> Okay, I'm definitely breathing so just need to shut my eyes while I'm doing it.

[00:43:16]>> Even if it's just like an occasional thing where you kind of just I don't know take yourself out of things for a little bit just to clear your mind.

[00:43:23]>> Yeah, I have tried I have tried. I do like walking. I like going for a walk.

[00:43:26]Yeah, in the summer we done um me and my wife done Snowden.

[00:43:29]>> That was really good. That was outstanding. I absolutely love that. We done the we done one of the um so-called easier paths, but I didn't I didn't didn't find it easy, but >> um yeah, I really enjoyed it. I really enjoyed it. Like it's um yeah, it's brilliant. It was a brilliant experience. I didn't think I'd >> uh I wouldn't say I got emotional when I got to the top of it. But yeah, it was it was it was excellent. like you go for the clouds and then it's open and then you go for the clouds again and it's you got to the top and >> it's it was yeah it's funny cuz obviously there's a you're meeting people going up and coming down and so it's yeah you meet a group and you meet a group of Everton fans and then you're having a chat and then few England fans and then few Birmingham City fan weird because you're like you're shattered and I've got this drug sack on trying to get me ill wanted to talk about football while I'm trying to meditate and relax like it's it's difficult to away from it.

[00:44:20]>> Yeah. Well, it sounds like you're energized by football.

[00:44:24]>> Definitely. Definitely.

[00:44:25]>> So, with kind of grassroots players across the country will be taking part in tournaments and wearing shirts and emulating their heroes this summer.

[00:44:33]>> Um, do you have any advice for coaches or players to help them enjoy tournaments?

[00:44:37]>> Yeah, I think I mean, you you've said it there, right, to enjoy it. Um, it can't it can't just be about results and about winning. There's only one team that can do that. So I think um the main thing is you know thinking back when when I was playing a club called the 3C's which is the Catholic community center in in Chsleywood you know we we were quite lucky that we had a really talented group and a really talented squad but you know some of them experiences I had um with that coach John Walsh the experiences set me up for loving football for for you know as as a 51 year old now um soon to be 52. the enthusiasm that he put in and belief and uh excitement of going into games and um being with my team and my teammates, you know, is something that from from a young age that that got me loving football. So, you know, I don't think uh grassroots coaches should underestimate the um the influence that they can have on players uh good and bad. And I think it's if you can if you can, you know, take a team to a tournament and them come back and they're laughing and joking in the in the mini bus or the coach or the back of the car and they've had a great experience, they'll they'll love football forever and they'll they'll pass that on. Um, you know, the opposite is if there's too much of a demand and, you know, too much professional and, you know, it it made me laugh. I was I drove past this um a car park where a grassroots team were were uh were playing and the the lads get out the car, the little little lads get out the cars and they've got their the flip-flops on, they've got their um their wash bags and they got their their earphones on like they're almost like >> it's so professional, you know? It's um it's you know just just just it's a reminder of their age and like just just enjoy it and and get them enjoying it and get them laughing and joking and and running around and playing with energy and that will really help them long term and on and off the pitch as well that help them at school and just having a Yeah, I want I want to improve.

[00:46:32]>> Would you say that's sort of like the main piece of information you would give to grassroots coach say they go into the first tournament? Oh >> 100% 100%. Yeah, it's um you know I can't ever remember and I'm and I'm trying not to exaggerate because you know we've all we all look at Monday night football now and and moving the players round and the you know the animations on the screen but I can't ever remember talking about you know we're going to play 442 today and you're going to play as a as an eight or 10 or a four or a six or whatever you know and this is your role in possession out of possession you know it was just 11 kids from Charmswood that would just run around as much as they could um and then do the the tote after the game to to pay for it. So, um yeah, enjoyment is so key. Um they've got to be you want them sprinting out of the car to get to the to the training pitch to to to be with their mates and to to have a game of football. And you know, I I often get asked um you know, what would you do training wise? Um you know, coaching wise um you know, if you had an hour with an under 10s or under 11s, I'd pick two teams. I'd let them play and that would be it. And every now and then I'd maybe pull one over and and talk to them, but they want to play football, you know, let them let them play, let them have a game.

[00:47:44]>> What a wonderful message to to end the podcast on. Thank you very much for your time, Lee. Like, we've really enjoyed listening to you and some of those messages are are fantastic for the grassroots coaches tuning into this.

[00:47:54]Hopefully, you've enjoyed the experience of being on the podcast. But yes, that is all we do have time for today. But don't forget to check out the description for the transcription of this episode and for all the links to our platforms. As always, you can head to the England football community to post your coaching questions for us to discuss on the podcast, or you can drop them in the comments section below.

[00:48:12]>> Yeah, we'd love to help you out, so please do send your questions in. We'll be back soon with a new season of Coachcast, so if you haven't already, hit subscribe to make sure you don't miss it. From all of us at England Football Learning, thanks for listening.