TRC Cases | Khampepe Commission of Inquiry: 13 May 2026

Añadido: 2026-05-14

[00:00:09]Thank you >> Miss Ranto.

[00:00:14]>> Good morning commissioners.

[00:00:15]>> Yes.

[00:00:16]>> Um I think after the signing in of the of General Dramat I will lead his evidence commissioners.

[00:00:23]>> Thank you Lester and General Dramat. Good morning.

[00:00:28]>> Good morning. Are you going to take an oath or affirmation?

[00:00:32]>> I'll take an oath. Commissioner, >> do you swear every evidence you will give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? If so, raise your right hand and say, "So, help me God."

[00:00:43]>> So, help me God.

[00:00:44]>> Thank you, Mr. Rant, your witness.

[00:00:48]I'm indebted to you commissioners. Um, good morning, General Ramad.

[00:00:54]Good morning, General.

[00:00:58]General, let me start off by um confirming with you if you do understand the capacity in which you are appearing before this commission.

[00:01:08]>> Yes. Uh, I did receive the notice, the rule 3 3.3 notice um indicating that I'm an implicated or potentially implicated person in the matters uh relating to the TRC cases and politically having um been influenced to either stop or the investigations or the prosecution of TRC cases. Thank you, General. Um, there's an affidavit, a copy of an affidavit in front of you there.

[00:01:44]>> Do you have it?

[00:01:45]>> Yes, I do.

[00:01:46]>> Um, may you confirm to the commission if the contents um are actually um a product of your own uh personal information?

[00:01:57]>> It it is uh commissioner a product of my own information with uh the guidance of my council.

[00:02:08]Thank you commissioners. Um you have stated in your affidavit that you had member of the SAPS. Is that not so?

[00:02:23]Which means the South African Police Service. General Dat >> that is correct. the commissioner. I was integrated into the South African Police Service in 1995 and I uh retired in uh 2014 as a left tenant general uh in the police.

[00:02:44]>> Okay. Thank you, General. Perhaps to make it um easy for the commissioners, when you talk of integration, what do you mean that we're integrated into the SAPS? Yeah.

[00:02:55]Following the uh the 1994 elections um a a a prior to to 95 I was part of the non-stutory forces. I was a member of the ANC and it's uh uh uh military wing theto.

[00:03:22]And upon um the the 1995 we were integrated into the South African police services. Um remember there was amalgamation of I think it was 11 uh police services at at the time and I was part of the contingent that was referred to as the non-statatory forces. uh those would have been forces that was part of the liberation movements uh armed wings.

[00:03:55]>> Thank you. Thank you general. Um if we can then proceed to paragraph 5 where we deal with uh your role as the DPI head.

[00:04:07]maybe just briefly um inform the commissioner I mean the commissioners um as to when were you appointed uh to take responsibility over the direate for priority crime investigations.

[00:04:19]Yeah, Commissioner, I was appointed uh in uh June 2009.

[00:04:27]Uh sorry, my apologies. In 6th of July, I was appointed as the DNC, the deputy national commissioner responsible for the Directorate of Priority Crimes Investigations, DPCI, commonly known as the Hawks.

[00:04:47]In your affidavit, you stated that um your appointment was effective from 1st June even though you took up um the actual taking up of um the position happened in July. Is that correct?

[00:05:01]>> That is correct, Commissioner.

[00:05:05]>> And then um you stated in your affidavit that um one of the people that resorted under your command or supervision was General Libya. Is that not so? Is that correct?

[00:05:18]>> That is That is correct, >> Commissioner. Sorry, >> if I may just expand on my appointment as a a deputy national >> Oh, yes, please.

[00:05:34]>> Commissioner. Um whilst a deputy national commissioner responsible for DPCI as the deputy national commission I was also responsible for the detective services at the time the crime intelligence as well as the forensic services.

[00:05:53]>> Okay. This was during the your appointment >> in the newly established DPCI >> when you were the deputy national commissioner as you explain. I was appointed a deputy national commissioner responsible for the DPCI.

[00:06:10]But by virtue of being a deputy national commissioner, I was also given the responsibilities for detective services as well as forensic services and the crime intelligence uh divisions.

[00:06:23]>> Okay. And what happened afterwards, General, if you can inform the commission?

[00:06:29]>> Yeah. following your appointment as a deputy national commissioner responsible for everything including as you said it was DPCR detective service and um services. So after that what then happened?

[00:06:45]>> Yeah. Um then I I I was charged with the responsibility and went about the process of uh sort of >> of of of of putting uh or establishing the directorate for priority crimes investigations which was my primary uh responsibility. I must also point out at this point in time that technically I was the only member of DPCI appointed. I had no other staff. I didn't have uh even an office to to start with at the point in time. It's also that it was a national head. So we also had to establish capacities throughout the country in all nine provinces. uh I had to establish the the DPCI.

[00:07:43]>> Okay.

[00:07:45]So you you were the only one appointed for the DPCI as at 1 June um as as you explained >> 2009. That's correct.

[00:07:57]>> And there were no there were no officials that were there to support you at that time as you said.

[00:08:03]>> No, not in as DPCI.

[00:08:05]>> Yes, >> they weren't appointed DPCI. I did uh manage and I was allowed to to get support from my previous uh secretary because I I I was before I came to the DP the appointment I was actually the uh deputy provincial commissioner in the Western Cape responsible for crime detection and uh yeah investigations. So meaning when you started taking up your post, it was literally just yourself and your secretary that you brought along from the Western Cape.

[00:08:41]>> I brought my secretary along. Yes.

[00:08:43]>> And you also testified that um that was also your responsibility to ensure that there was establishment of the DPCI at provincial level as well.

[00:08:54]>> As well. Yes.

[00:08:55]>> Were the people at that time at the provinces allocated to the DPCI?

[00:09:00]>> No.

[00:09:00]>> When you were appointed?

[00:09:02]>> No. Okay.

[00:09:03]>> As I said, I was the only DPCI member appointed at that point in time.

[00:09:10]>> Thank you, General. And then you continued in your affidav to explain that subsequent to that you were relieved of the functions related to detective service uh forensic and I think it's crime intelligence.

[00:09:26]>> Yes. Yes. That that is so uh commissioners. I was at one point in time, I think it was 2011 when I was actually uh relieved of those responsibilities and that I could then focus uh full-time and dedicate my efforts to the establishment of the DPCI.

[00:09:49]>> Yes. In paragraph 8, it says on the 31st January 2011. So, you are right.

[00:09:55]>> Yeah.

[00:09:56]>> Yes.

[00:09:57]>> Yes. And then going back a little um one step back um when you were still the deputy national commissioner responsible for everything else as you indicated including the DPCI >> um General Leia resorted under your supervision at some point.

[00:10:17]>> That that is correct. Perhaps I should maybe just explain.

[00:10:21]>> Yes.

[00:10:21]>> That in the establishment of the DPCI that uh one had to draw from in fact the DPCI there was the director of special operations that resorted under the NPA, right? They had investigators, they had prosecutors and they had uh I think intelligence officers uh working on that with the disbandment or the dissolvement of the DSO and the establishment of the DPCI uh of the the DPCI could source uh members from the the DSO.

[00:11:03]um they were given opportunity to to be part of the DPCI.

[00:11:10]Those that had investigative uh experience, those that had intelligence uh deployments was uh sent to was given opportunity to to move to crime intelligence.

[00:11:24]um those with the prosecutors remained within the the NPA but also we had within the SAPs the organized crime, commercial crime as well as serious and violent crimes units that was u and the DPCI legislation specifically uh uh mandated the DPCI to look at priority or national priority offenses and also organized crime, serious organized crime, serious uh commercial crime and serious uh corruption. that was and so um I took an approach that everybody in rather than out because also the legislation indicated that we had to be um uh uh uh uh man a man or or or by by members whose integrity is beyond reproach.

[00:12:29]Right? And we all had to undergo a vetting process that the legislation indicated had to be done by crime in intelligence, right? And uh therefore when when when in establishing I took an approach of everybody in and then we begin to weed out because there was um current cases.

[00:12:54]There were cases also that was from the DSO that was transferred right and there was also cases that is within these various units the organized crimes units the commercial crimes units uh there wasn't an anti-corruption unit in in in SAPS there was nothing there at all so uh those investigations couldn't be left and unattended to so members that was drawn from those units came with their their workload with their investigations >> to form part of the DPCI >> to form part of the DPCI. General Leia at the time was in the detective service. uh I think he was acting for organized crime okay >> component head and therefore he was also brought to the DPCI and he was under my uh supervision >> okay >> and reported to me >> thank you general and then um you spoke of also the process of vetting that had to happen uh during the takeover of those members from the DSO and other units of the SAPS.

[00:14:13]>> That's correct.

[00:14:14]>> Yes. Um what did that mean when you said vetting? What what what did that process entail?

[00:14:22]>> Yeah, we we had to uh apply the the Z 204 forms that of crime intelligence and uh uh uh in fact of of government I think is the Z 204 so that we could be uh investigated and get the a clearance Yeah.

[00:14:40]>> Meanwhile, those members um were still saving under the newly established DPCI pending the vetting >> of Yes. It was a requirement.

[00:14:50]>> It was a requirement.

[00:14:51]>> Yeah.

[00:14:59]um you testify that um as much as you did not have uh personnel under your um or within the DPCI or the newly formed in paragraph 6 you also indicated that there was no approved structure for the DPCI. Is that correct?

[00:15:18]>> That is uh correct.

[00:15:20]Hence, General Leby and others had to come from where they came from to form part of the newly established.

[00:15:27]>> That is correct.

[00:15:28]>> Okay.

[00:15:39]As we indicated, um perhaps before we go to the response to the rule, uh 3.3 notice that was served on you by the commission.

[00:15:49]Um can you just perhaps give the commission um a time period within which all this had to happen?

[00:16:00]um that is now your appointment the integration and your ultimate um appointment as a DPC8 when you were relinguished of other functions with in terms of what you stated is that your appointment was in um let's say July 2009 and then only January 2011 you starting you started taking the responsibility um over the DPCI so that would have been just over a year is that correct >> that is correct But I don't I don't want to say there wasn't a a period where I was never responsible for the DPCI.

[00:16:37]>> Yes. No, no, no. What? Yes.

[00:16:39]>> Remember you stated you explained to the commission that >> there was a point when you were responsible for it as part and parcel of >> Yes.

[00:16:48]>> It was over and above DPCI detection and so on. That's correct.

[00:16:51]>> Until January 2011.

[00:16:54]>> That's correct.

[00:16:54]>> Yes. So meaning you started taking the responsibility solely for the DPCI from 31st January 2011.

[00:17:04]>> That's correct.

[00:17:05]>> Yes, >> Commissioner.

[00:17:08]>> Now let's go to paragraph 10 of your affidavit.

[00:17:18]This is where you refer to the notice that you spoke about that um you understand that you are here because of the contents of the notice um served on you by by the commission.

[00:17:31]Now, in paragraph 10, you specifically um refer to the allegations that are contained in paragraphs 311 and 313 of the founding affidavit filed in the application of um Galata and others in so you confirm that the basis of your response was in relation to those paragraphs as contained in the notice. That's correct, Commissioner.

[00:18:06]>> And you do point out to the commission that more specifically it is alleged that um advocate Mark McAdam made a number of attempts to secure meeting with you and those were unsuccessful.

[00:18:22]Correct.

[00:18:23]>> That that is uh correct commissioner.

[00:18:30]And you also point out to the commission that according to advocate McAdam at the time when he approached you he alleges that he was alerting you of a matter that was about to prescribe on the 12th of September 2009. Is that not so?

[00:18:46]>> That is correct. Commissioner, >> would I be correct that what essentially that meant was that from July, August, September, we're talking a period of 3 months that you had to deal with this um cases that advocate Madam allegedly asked you to to to assist with >> within a period of 3 months to avoid the prescription according to him. Is that not so >> that that is uh correct commissioner.

[00:19:22]Now in paragraph 11 you state to the commissioner that um you refer to the context of um advocate madam's affidavit that's um RCM6 to his affidavit filed in support of the inadimment matter and you do explain that on the 7th of July to the that's 27th July and 28 8 August 2009 was shortly after you resumed your duties in in July 2009.

[00:19:58]>> That is correct, Commissioner. As I indicated, I was appointed in June but took up office uh in July.

[00:20:09]>> Yes.

[00:20:09]>> Right. And uh I do do uh take note although I don't have any recollection of the the email. Um but I I do take uh note that comrade uh sorry my apologies that >> advocate make Adam uh made attempts >> to do that he may have >> no I I wouldn't be in a position to dispute that >> as you also said stated again that you also cannot recall if you responded >> no I I I And in terms of the process of integration that you were talking about getting everyone to be housed under your supervision as you were explaining earlier, General Leia, specialized unit DSO, all this happened during the period that advocate MC Adam would have um attempted to secure meeting with him.

[00:21:11]Would that be correct if I say that?

[00:21:13]>> That would be correct. I mean it was in the process commissioners at that point in time. Um it's there were simple things they didn't have an office as as as when I was appointed you know uh I didn't have staff I brought the secretary with me and the secretary was from from Cape Town um and also had to to relocate that had to set up office and the email that uh you would have sent to is the email that is manned by my secretary right Okay, >> commissioners. If I may just refer the commissioners to correspondence in terms of um the advocate McAdams affidavit, it it doesn't really have those the dates and so on, but there is um in the Galata bundle correspondence page is is 303 of the Galata bundle. Commissioners if I'm allow specifically page 304 commissioner I just want to um inquire from general dramat relating to the correspondence that he referred to. Um there is an email uh from DPCI hit. Um and then the person that signed there is um Pumla.

[00:22:50]Do you know the person?

[00:22:52]>> That is my secretary.

[00:22:55]>> So for the records that's um that was on the 28th of August 2009.

[00:23:01]is addressed to Helena Zwart and it says good day Mr. Adam, we wish to acknowledge receipt of your email.

[00:23:11]DNC dramat is unable to meet with you presently, but will revert back to you in due course.

[00:23:18]>> As you you stated earlier that you do not have a recollection.

[00:23:22]>> That's correct.

[00:23:23]>> But you cannot deny that it would have been Puma from your office that responded to this correspondence.

[00:23:28]>> That's correct, Commissioner.

[00:23:30]>> Okay.

[00:23:36]Now, General Leia testified before the commission that um his appointment took place in August 2009.

[00:23:46]So before you go there, um I think um earlier than August, if if if you go to page 1723 um um of of of of this bundle.

[00:24:09]Um the earliest reference to uh General Dramat is in the um the at at the foot of the page on the 14th of July 2009.

[00:24:29]It says re TRC cases requiring investigation.

[00:24:36]And then uh important is is what um Helena Leila Raymon says.

[00:24:48]Um and if we can just read that um at no exam.

[00:25:18]Um, do you understand Africans?

[00:25:25]I do commissioner.

[00:25:27]>> Yes. Um actually there is also somewhat um a a a translation thereof because if if we carry on the following page 1724 then it goes on to say uh pester anc uh contact me. Um what what I I I want to point out here is that um it would seem that um this was brought to your attention.

[00:26:35]You said you are not available. You'll be available only on August according to this correspondence.

[00:26:43]You may not have an independent recollection but um this should refresh your memory.

[00:26:54]Um do you recall then uh making this um undertaking that you might be available in August um of um of that year uh um 2009 commissioner unfortunately I don't have recollection you know and me having seen the email and read this does not assist in uh with my memory, you know, but listening to the the conversation that happens here between uh it would seems uh from uh Mr. Alena Schwartz and uh and Miss uh I assume the person that's at the uh NPA office or Mr. McAdams office and uh the person that's in uh general or commissioner Lala at the time's office you know that uh they indicate that that my secretary would have called uh them to say that I'm not available my secretary was also the person responsible to manage my my diary and therefore would have known that I wouldn't be available uh at those specific times it is possible that she would have raised it with me but I don't have recollection on it unfortunately.

[00:28:30]>> Yes. Um but um also uh looking at um what is stated there, it is very important uh because um there would have been a list of cases given >> and not only cases TRC cases. So that >> um uh that the spree of convol in other words cases that would be uh on the agenda for discussion.

[00:29:02]>> So it was very important you >> you agree.

[00:29:07]Yes. All all all all matters my attitude would be uh important.

[00:29:15]Yeah. Uh that was my >> attitude. I never discriminated um anybody that wanted to discuss uh whatever cases. But yeah, I I also take note of course and I understand that you had just taken you know um office at a time and you explained that you are very busy. I do understand that. Thank you Miss Rank.

[00:29:44]>> Thank you commissioner. Maybe just as a also follow-up question to what Commissioner Ko asked um just to find out from you general at a time when you took over um um I just want to find out as to whether you were aware as to how many TRC cases were being handled by the SAPS or investigated by the SAPS at the time.

[00:30:06]>> No. No.

[00:30:14]Yeah.

[00:30:16]Yeah. Perhaps I must maybe just add with the with the I think I did explain earlier with the establishment of the DPCI that uh the investigations would have been somewhere TRC investigations as well as corruption investigations as well as organized crime uh investigations and commercial crime investigations would have been handled somewhere. Yeah.

[00:30:46]um when uh the DPCI was established and it fell within the mandate of the DPCI specifically with the the cases that was handled by the DSO they were supposed to be handed over you know now I'm not sure whether the TRC matters was part of that uh cases that was was was investigated by DSO whether the DSO investigated uh TRC cases. I'm I'm I'm not sure, you know. Okay.

[00:31:20]>> Um Yeah.

[00:31:30]Perhaps if we can just go back to General Levia's responsibility at the time when he was appointed in August 2009.

[00:31:38]>> Yeah.

[00:31:38]>> And now reporting under you as the deputy national commissioner.

[00:31:41]>> Yes.

[00:31:42]>> Yes. Do you remember what what his responsibilities were?

[00:31:46]>> Yeah, he he was responsibly mainly for the organized crime uh units, huh? Um but he was also I also relied on him as the uh taking responsibility for the for DPCI units and investigations. Yeah. meaning that TRC cases if at all um there were those in existence would have then be dealt with by General Leia police appointment >> they would have yes and how it used to work uh I can't say from the onset but how it it it worked is that my office let me say General Levia was almost an extension of my office so if matters was sent to me and correspondence that related to to the DPCI it would be it would be sent to him for for for his uh attention and and actioning.

[00:32:45]Right.

[00:32:52]And and in the I I did read in uh in Atkut McAdams uh affidavit.

[00:33:00]>> Yes. that uh he did after not securing uh an appointment with myself. He in fact I think it was in November he actually managed to to talk to General Leia about these cases and uh my understanding is that General Libya gave uh attention to the cases that was uh mentioned.

[00:33:28]>> Okay.

[00:33:28]>> Yeah. um if um at all you had succeeded in um securing a meeting with advocate um McAdam during August 2009 >> um would I be correct that General Leia would have been present or would have taken care of the issues that would be raised in that meeting >> for any actioning and appointment and sending to any of the units.

[00:33:54]General Abia would have been the the individual that would action.

[00:34:01]>> Meaning even if you had met with advocate McAdam, you would still have assigned General Leia to take care of the issues that were raised.

[00:34:09]>> That is correct, Commissioner.

[00:34:17]And then just in conclusion um the allegations are that um there were or there was political interference with the investigation and or prosecutions of the TRC um related cases.

[00:34:36]Now my question to you is whether at any given moment you were ever influenced h politically or otherwise not to pursue any cases related to the TRC commissioner without any fear of contradiction. I can say that at no point in time was I influenced uh or did I seek to influence or instruct anybody to not investigate um TRC related uh matters or any other matter for that at no point in time >> and that would have extended to anybody that worked under you that no such instruction instruction was ever >> I would not it would have been illegal that is my attitude and I would not have given such an illegal instruction to anyone uh under my command.

[00:35:38]>> Thank you General Ramad commissioners perhaps commissioners just want to check with my colleague Commissioners, I think that brings um an end to the evidence of um General Dramat.

[00:36:03]>> Thank you, Mr. Ranto.

[00:36:06]Mr. Kala, switch on your mic.

[00:36:26]Thank you chairperson and members of the commission. We do not have questions for this witness.

[00:36:31]>> Thank you Miss >> Defi either. Thank you chair commissioners.

[00:36:38]>> Thank you Miss Baraka.

[00:36:44]>> I find out what is going on. There seems to be some cold air blowing down on us, but I have no questions. Thank you.

[00:36:52]>> But you can talk.

[00:36:55]>> I'm not sure about that, Commissioner.

[00:36:57]It feels like cold air coming down on us, but I have no questions. Chief, >> thank you, Miss Moroca. Mr. Vani, >> chair, in addition to the cold air, it is a bit noisy. I just want to make sure that that we we can be uh heard. Yes, you can be heard.

[00:37:16]>> Yes, chair. We do have a short uh number of questions we'd like to put to the the witness.

[00:37:23]>> Yes, you may proceed to do so.

[00:37:25]>> Thank you, Chair.

[00:37:28]Um General Dat, firstly, thank you for coming up from Cape Town to be with us today. It's appreciated.

[00:37:35]Um to be clear, General, we don't regard you as an implicated person in these proceedings. As far as we're aware, there's no basis to accuse you of being involved I believe that was in 2014 or 2015.

[00:41:17]Um 14 >> 2014. Yes.

[00:41:23]Uh during those years, did did you have any interaction with the TRC cases?

[00:41:31]There there was um an officer that uh had an engagement with me. Um I forgot the officer's name unfortunately. I can't recall his name, but it was specifically on the um Simlani matter. He was investigating uh that case. the the Natulo Simlani case, >> excuse me. Ncatulo Simlani, >> that is correct, Commissioner.

[00:42:03]>> And was it Pachan Senior Superintendent Louis Best?

[00:42:08]>> No. No, it wasn't. It was a It was a black officer.

[00:42:12]>> I see. Although you can't remember his his name.

[00:42:15]>> I can't I'm sorry.

[00:42:17]>> Not Not a problem.

[00:42:20]>> So, was that the only matter that that that you can recall from from those years?

[00:42:25]>> Yes.

[00:42:33]So then then let's turn to um your paragraph 10 in which you um give an overview um of the rule 3.3 notice and you make reference to the paragraphs in the cola affidavit uh which in turn reflect u various communications at advocate McAdam um um had with your office.

[00:43:01]Um we don't need to go over that in detail. Your evidence and chief has covered it. But essentially, McAdam seemed to be saying that um that there were these cases um 11 reduced to 10 uh that needed to be uh investigated.

[00:43:21]Uh one was uh prescribing Um at at that time were you were you surprised to to hear that um these TOC cases still had not been uh investigated given that they were quite old cases but also you know serious cases such as murder >> as I I I testified that um I don't have recollection of it you know so so I can't respond to at the time, you know.

[00:43:56]>> Okay.

[00:43:56]>> Yeah. I I can't respond to to that, you know.

[00:44:01]>> Right.

[00:44:02]>> Yeah.

[00:44:03]>> Um but but as we sit here today with with with the benefit of of hindsight um the fact that um the NPA was was approaching uh the DPCI for investigators as late as 2009.

[00:44:19]>> With the benefit of hindsight, would that have would that be surprising to you?

[00:44:25]Um, look, I I am surprised uh with hindsight now that the NPA it wouldn't have had investigators.

[00:44:38]Where were they from? What was happening with those cases uh all this time? That would be the the question. Why was nobody investigating them?

[00:44:51]>> Yes.

[00:44:52]>> Where were they?

[00:44:54]Well, we >> before it came there to according to the the email uh in >> well this commission is attempting to get to the bottom of that question amongst others.

[00:45:07]>> Okay.

[00:45:17]Then if we turn to uh your paragraph 13, you mentioned that advocate McAdam did in fact um meet with u General Leea and that was towards the end of 2009.

[00:45:39]um and that um senior superintendent best uh was assigned to deal with those uh those 10 matters.

[00:45:51]Um and incidentally we don't know the 10 matters but I think we can assume that the Nokatilla Solani matter was was one of them.

[00:46:04]Now, would you be surprised to hear that notwithstanding the appointment of um Senior Superintendent Bester um between 2009 and 2016, and I know this now um surpasses uh your time at the at the SAP since you left in 2014, but with the benefit of hindsight, would you be surprised to hear that um during that period of approximately 6 years um there were no cases enrolled, no indictments issued, uh no inquest held on the TRC cases.

[00:46:47]Well, most probably it points to the difficulty of the investigations. I assume most probably because of the the length of time when the the matters would have happened and what available evidence there is. You know, could be factors that uh contribute to a lack of uh these cases being having progressed to prosecution state. I I'm I'm not sure.

[00:47:21]>> Yes. Yes, you'll have to go into those individual investigations and see what are the the objective reasons for progress or lack of progress.

[00:47:34]It's difficult for me to say.

[00:47:36]>> Yes. and and since you raised the the Natula Simillani matter, um I don't know if you recall, but in 2015, um TMB Simlani on behalf of of her family went to the high court to compel a decision from the NPA and and in fact that did result in indictment being issued in uh early 2016.

[00:48:04]So it it certainly in that matter it didn't appear that there was a want of of evidence.

[00:48:10]Do >> you have any comment on that?

[00:48:13]>> Yeah. Yeah. Look, as I say, you need to look into each investigation. You know, what's the available evidence in the specific matter?

[00:48:24]>> Yes.

[00:48:26]Um you you were asked by uh your your your council, Miss Ranser, um whether you knew how many TRC cases were being investigated uh by the DPCI.

[00:48:43]Um, the DPCI did submit a a report to the justice portfolio committee in in Parliament and it did give an indication of the uh number of cases being pursued by the DPCI.

[00:49:08]Um and it appears that in 2011 only one case TRC case was opened and in 2013 um also only one case in fact the bulk of the cases some 140 were only opened in the years 20 21 and 2022.

[00:49:30]Um do you do you have any comment as to why so few cases were opened by the DPCI uh in the period between 2011 uh and 2020?

[00:49:45]Well, at least during the period that that that you were at the DPCI.

[00:49:50]Well, the cases as as indicated um there were 10 matters that we know of that was sent to the the DPCI and uh in all likelihood General Lubia would have assigned it to investigation units or investigators would have been assigned. So in that sense there will there was uh at least 10 cases active cases being investigated. When you say that there was only one in 2011 that was opened, are you are you saying that it was enrolled or I'm just need some clarity uh commissioner because my understanding on the strength of uh advocate McAdams affidavit that 10 cases was uh at least 10 >> was signed and was active investigation.

[00:50:48]would have been opened in police terms.

[00:50:53]>> Yes. No, we we certainly don't mean enrolled. We we we mean opened.

[00:50:57]>> Unfortunately, we we we don't have that um that list of of 10 cases.

[00:51:03]So, we we don't know whether they were in fact opened and investigated.

[00:51:10]>> All we know is is is that um there was no progress um in those years until the Simani family went to court. in 2015.

[00:51:23]>> No further questions. Uh, >> thank you, Mr. Vani.

[00:51:28]>> Mr. Sima, >> uh, chair, before my colleague Nalani puts questions. I'm advised that there are two representatives virtually who are present with these proceedings for advocates. Ja and advocate as similani.

[00:51:51]>> Yes.

[00:51:54]Are they available virtually to put clarificatory questions?

[00:52:00]>> I take it that's why the information has been forwarded to me.

[00:52:07]Can we proceed to have Mi Miss Tambelleni for advocate Ja?

[00:52:25]>> Good morning, chair.

[00:52:28]Um, uh, we don't have any clarificatory questions for this witness.

[00:52:36]I didn't get your response.

[00:52:41]>> We don't have clarification questions for this witness.

[00:52:44]>> Thank you, Mr. >> Morning. Chair, we also any clarification.

[00:52:58]>> Thank you, Mr. Nalani.

[00:53:05]Commissioner, we I 11:06.

[00:53:08]Can we start now?

[00:53:10]>> Yes.

[00:53:10]>> Want to take us take a T?

[00:53:13]>> Yes.

[00:53:13]>> Thank you very much. Thank you, >> General.

[00:53:18]Good morning.

[00:53:20]>> Morning.

[00:53:26]As I understand from your evidence, you literally were the first person to start the DPCI.

[00:53:33]>> Mr. Nalani, you're not in sync with your microphones.

[00:53:40]>> Am I in sync now?

[00:53:41]>> Yes.

[00:53:49]>> Thank you. Thank you very much.

[00:53:52]You appear to have single-handedly started the process of the establishment of the DPCR. You're the first person to be appointed. Is that correct?

[00:54:01]>> That's correct, Commissioner.

[00:54:03]>> And you had to marshall staff, offices, equipment, and other necessary instruments for you to enable to start the DPCI. Correct.

[00:54:15]>> That's correct, Commissioner. And as I understand that one of the persons that you relied on mainly was General Lea.

[00:54:23]>> That is correct.

[00:54:24]>> You said he was an extension of your office.

[00:54:28]>> That's correct, Commissioner.

[00:54:30]>> And you'd have been involved in some of the practicalities of dealing with the issues referred to the DPCI.

[00:54:38]>> That is correct, Commissioner.

[00:54:40]>> From what we hear from Dr. General Lebe is that um he was requested by advocate Macadam to look into 10 cases relating to the TRC. You also mentioned that you know you know about that.

[00:55:01]>> I learned from them from the um advocate McAdams affidavit.

[00:55:08]So the DPCI was at the very least seized with at least 10 cases when it started its operations clear cases.

[00:55:17]>> That's correct.

[00:55:20]>> And as we understand from General Leia on whom you relied there were was at least one problem or challenge which was identified which was lack of investigators.

[00:55:37]You agree?

[00:55:39]>> I'm not aware of a lack of investigators.

[00:55:43]>> When Macadam came to the DPCI, he wanted an investigator to be assigned to at least those 10 cases that he wanted to be investigated.

[00:55:57]>> Yes.

[00:55:58]And as we understand the structures of the operations at the time, there was a unit within the NPA called PCLU which was responsible among others the investigation and prosecution of TRC cases. Are you aware of that?

[00:56:15]>> Yes.

[00:56:16]>> And Madam Advocate Madam was working in that unit.

[00:56:22]>> Yes.

[00:56:22]>> Yeah. And when he came to the DPCI, it was for the DPCI to assign investigators so that the cases can progress the TLC cases.

[00:56:35]>> You agree?

[00:56:36]>> Yes.

[00:56:37]>> Yeah. And as we understand from General Beam, he then put in place processes to enhance the availability of personnel in the DPCI.

[00:56:52]It was a new organization in a sense >> to beef up the capacity of the DPCI >> with which you you were you were the head. You agree with that?

[00:57:04]>> I was the headiest.

[00:57:06]>> Yes.

[00:57:06]>> Of the DPCI.

[00:57:07]>> Yeah. And as well understanded he a number of posts were advertised at least 200 cases or so 200 post or so advertised to fill the capacity of the DPCI to start with his job.

[00:57:23]Sorry, commissioners. Uh, apologies, commissioners. Um, just to assist um my senior colleague, those appointments were were made way after um the departure of General.

[00:57:37]>> All right. So during your during your your your tenure in the DPCI, you were not involved with the appointment of staff at least investigative staff. No, no. I was involved at the level of the provincial heads. That was my first and uh the staff at the at the national office. Okay. Now during your term tenure, what did you do personally as a head of DPCI to make sure that TRC cases at least those that were identified by MadAm Madam were able to be investigated as thoroughly and as possible.

[00:58:25]as I I testified earlier that I wasn't aware of TRC cases per se, right? There was a number of cases that uh the DPCI uh inherited from the DSO as well as those cases that was investigated by the organized crime units, the commercial crime units and the serious and violent crimes units of of SAPS. and together with those personnel right um that came from at least from the SAPS yeah so I can't commissioner can't say that I did something specific on DRC related matters only >> you relied on General Lebea in the main >> that that is so >> and from his evidence it appears that he did assign investigators on these cases Yes.

[00:59:22]>> And he also testified that course because I'm told now that it might have been after he had left he was able well through his efforts and requests through the authorities to make sure that investigators are increased and appointed.

[00:59:38]>> Yes. That's pursuant to the departure of >> Lieutenant General.

[00:59:44]>> Yes. Thank you.

[00:59:47]And you say during your time period you did not interfere with anybody, stop any TLC investigations or influence anybody to stop the TLC investigations.

[00:59:59]>> No, I did not. It would have been an offense.

[01:00:07]>> Commissioner, those are questions.

[01:00:08]>> Thank you. Uh can I just find out from you um general um we we know what Mr. McAdam says in his affidavit and um um you point out in paragraph 13 that um uh General Leia came on board specifically on the 26th of November 2009.

[01:00:42]Now after um Mr. McAdams could not get hold of you.

[01:00:52]Um, did uh, General Lea uh, report to you about the difficulty relating to um, the appointment of investigators particularly relating to the TRC matters.

[01:01:14]I I commissioner I don't have any recollection of such uh difficulty in in my understanding he most probably he would have uh allocated those investigations to a unit um that was probably within the organized crimes or what later on became the crimes against the state unit.

[01:01:42]he would have assigned uh those investigations to to that unit.

[01:01:49]I don't think he would have appointed specific investigators for a case >> but he did not >> he would have excuse me >> but he did not share his difficulties with you.

[01:02:01]>> I don't have a recollection of him.

[01:02:04]>> Yes.

[01:02:05]>> Uh >> yes in any difficulty >> I think you've answered my question.

[01:02:11]Thank you.

[01:02:14]>> Thank you chair miss ranto you commissioners. There won't be any reexamination of evidence.

[01:02:22]>> Thank you.

[01:02:26]Left tenant general dramat.

[01:02:29]We thank you for having come to give evidence before this commission.

[01:02:34]At this stage, there is no indication that an application for your cross examination is going to be launched.

[01:02:43]You are excused as a witness, but should such an application be made, you may be recalled as a witness.

[01:02:53]Thank you.

[01:02:53]>> Thank you.

[01:02:54]>> These proceedings are until tomorrow at 10:00.