Ep. 39: Overthinking | 2 Dudes Talkin' Therapy Podcast

Added: 2026-05-14

[00:00:00]I love melodies.

[00:00:03]So can we go the full 40 or Okay. You want to start or?

[00:00:09]Uh, what's this episode called?

[00:00:11]>> Overthinking.

[00:00:12]>> Overthinking. Overthinking.

[00:00:13]>> Rumination. Overthinking, rumination.

[00:00:16]Uh, which uh, is uh, the name of this episode and I guess I'm starting it cuz I'm speaking. Oh, go for it. Overthinking is a problem that lots of people have and in a lot of ways I think the way to the way to categorize this effectively is I think overthinking is this imagine your mind is like a computer and it has a program that runs when it gets too hot.

[00:00:42]And that program is called overthinking.

[00:00:45]And it's a program that's running in the background. So you don't even know it's on, it's just happening and you can kind of feel it. And I kind of I feel like that's the reason why overthinking is so hard to deal with because when it's happening to you, you're almost like in this autopilot. You're not consciously choosing to do it, it's just something your mind slips into in moments when you're distressed.

[00:01:10]There you go. I love that. Actually like I have one note on this too, but like I think people who overthink are underestimating the power of sort of external stimulation because because the problem with overthinking is not just this conscious thing.

[00:01:27]You know, like to the mind that is overstimulated, silence starts to feel wrong, you know? So if you're in a state of silence and your mind has been trained to expect stimulation on average from your phone, from TikTok, from something on the outside, then the moment you get in private, your nervous system is going to try to figure out how do I make sense of this silence that I'm not used to. And and so a lot of overthinkers then because of that, their mind has sort of been trained to anticipate that, so their mind compensates for that emptiness with their own thought, whether it be solving problems or or trying to explore an exciting idea, something that generates stimulation, even even if it's some sort of physical thing like like reaching for something.

[00:02:13]Like if you can't sort of sit in a state of quiet and without reaching for something. Like like you can try it yourself if you're listening, but like stare at a wall for like 2 minutes without moving a physical part of your body. Don't look around. Don't don't do anything with your feet. And also see how much you can just focus on the neutral stimulus that's the wall without closing your eyes. And and if you can't really do that or if it feels extremely disregulating, it's very likely that part of your overthinking, if that's a thing, is happening because on average your nervous system has been trained to not tolerate silence in a world where we have so much noise.

[00:02:51]Yeah, 100%. It I think that's it's a good test. That's a good test. And I think I think another another way to look at like if you want to work on your overthinking, one of the questions you have to ask yourself is what is the myth what is the belief that my mind is telling me if I were to solve this riddle? Like like oh, here's there's this there's this upcoming speech I have to give and I keep ruminating and overthinking about it. It's like well, what is the myth your mind is telling you about going down this rabbit hole? Well, I I think the myth is always going to be in the direction of you'll feel better when you think this thing through. But then the question is is when you actually follow down that rabbit hole, how do you feel before and how do you feel after?

[00:03:47]Because most of the time when people overthink, they kind of end up in the position they started. It's kind of like someone who's lost in the woods, so they start walking in a direction hoping they're going to find safety. And then after an hour they find that they're just back where they started. Yeah, it's it's like I think a lot of people who overthink feel like they waste so much energy, you know?

[00:04:10]Like Like I know a lot of people who are overthinkers that really look like sloths. Like they don't move, they don't do a whole lot with their body, and and people look at them and they think, "Wow, you're just lazy." But that's on the outside. What's happening on the inside is that they're running a marathon, you know?

[00:04:25]>> [laughter] >> They They They're going back and forth, back and forth, and they're exerting energy all around this sort of central marker of non-movement. And And I think a lot of people who overthink can come to really hate themselves because they are sort of moving with such great intensity towards something that's passionate. And And people who overthink can be overthinkers because they care so much.

[00:04:47]But that also leads to even more pain for the overthinker because now they can come to realize that even though my deepest value is to be a caring, passionate person, the world sees me as the opposite because of my overthinking. They see me as someone that doesn't move. I'm standing still, and it's not being sort of My My effort is not being represented in the real world at all. And then that leads to even more overthinking and and more anger at self, frustration with self, shame, sadness, depression, low energy, all that stuff.

[00:05:20]I I think it's the marathon analogy really resonates with me because I always use the metaphor of like overthinking Overthinking's kind of like the image of a dog eating a bone, you know? On On some level the dog thinks it's doing something.

[00:05:39]The dog's at work, you know? Like doing doing a hard day's work in in his head.

[00:05:45]But in reality it's just sitting on the floor and kind of doing nothing. And And it's the lies we tell ourselves about about what we think we're accomplishing.

[00:05:56]And the vulnerability that comes with resisting that urge. You know, I used to I used to overthink a lot. And I don't really overthink much at all, ever. But, I think the shift for me happened when I realized like the the false sense of trust I put in my mind to solve problems it's actually getting me anywhere. Like, I think we put too much we put too much trust in this very limited resource to solve all of our problems. And I think people who are overthinkers, they value their conscious minds more than they should.

[00:06:32]>> Mhm. They think their conscious mind is going to solve complex things. When in reality, the greatest thinkers were not sitting paralyzed, rocking back and forth, trying to solve equations. Like, like Einstein was was notorious for his walks because on these walks the answers would come to him. But, you have to be more of a receiver and less of a seeker. You know, the the second you try to find answers, you kind of keep them at bay. But, this And And this is why one of the one of the exercises I I ask of a lot of clients who are overthinkers is can you ask the question and resist the urge to answer it? I mean, really resist the urge to answer it. Because you're relying on this part of your brain that should be just kind of like your your secretary that does scheduling.

[00:07:31]You're asking for it to do complex equations when it's not capable of doing complex equations. And then you get frustrated that it can't do complex equations. Yeah.

[00:07:39]>> It was never made to do those things.

[00:07:41]It's made to, you know, identify what things are and and think about what you have to do next in your day, but it it's not capable of deciding how you feel about a friend or you know what I mean?

[00:07:54]Mhm. Yeah, like there's I I like to think about like two parts of the mind.

[00:07:58]You have the I call it like the reptile, you know, I brought it up in maybe past episodes, but it's like the part of you that sort of is the emotion unconscious.

[00:08:07]It's the part of you that learns based on experience.

[00:08:11]Um it it's the part of you that doesn't have to think anymore when you tie your shoes or it doesn't have to think anymore on your way to work because you've taken that route 100 times. Um but then there's also the part of you that's like the rational mind that can be like the secretary. It's like the part of you that sort of is like like uh the the words that are narrating your experience like as you're listening in right now like if you're not on autopilot. And so I always think like that is that that rational mind plays such a small part of the grand scale of your entire experience in reality.

[00:08:43]Um and the reptile actually plays the majority because as we start to apply meaning to the world, that's when we start to take shortcuts, which is very healthy, you know, and I think that that unconscious is also it's connected to the gut and your response to the world and it it responds based on association and much faster than the rational mind.

[00:09:03]Like like sometimes I'll have a client come in and they're like, "Well, you know, I feel sad today." And then we find out like a few weeks later like, "Oh, that was the That was the day that like your dog died 3 years ago." It the the emotional mind knew far more than the rational mind in that that situation and it's like so many overthinkers give up on the power of that that unconscious because they're not willing to be um dependent or at its mercy, you know, when in reality what you don't realize is that you're always at the mercy of that reptile. Like the thought that you have first actually is not something that you cosign. It's something that is happening because of the reptile itself because like like like English speakers that read from left to right is like you're more likely to notice the the detail on the left side rather than the right side simply because of how you've been brought up. And you're you're also probably going to notice worst case scenarios in your thinking first if you're an overthinker. So it's like you're trying to analyze different parts of reality, but is there a flavor to what you're noticing about reality? Um yeah, but like there you go again, you know, like that's the reptile speaking, not the rational mind even though it sort of looks like the rational mind, you know? Uh uh 100% just this morning I irritating in an irritated tone said to my wife, I was like, "I'm so sick of people on my TikToks going, 'So what do I do?'" Like that is always the question when I post something, you know, like a a minute-long clip. "So what do I do?"

[00:10:34]It's like But that's the That's the overthinking mind asking the question. It's like if you fully understood the problem, the the the unconscious mind will reveal the answer. You know, the answer is very clear as long as you know exactly what you're looking at. But the second you try to pull understanding out before it's ready to be understood, you're going to be like, "What do I do then? What do I do then?" It's like you don't The fact that you don't know what to do means you're not at a point of doing. And you're not okay with not being at a point of doing. And I think often, and this kind of also plays to what you were saying, I think often overthinkers, it's not so much that they don't know what to do. It's not that they're indecisive. It's that they're resisting what they know they should do. They're resisting what they are being pulled in the direction of because they're having a hard time coming to grips with what the the of that decision would be. And the pain that might come from making this choice instead of that choice. And so, it's not so much that you're in the the root of overthinking doesn't often have to be indecisiveness.

[00:11:45]It could often be uh a lack of acceptance because of maybe you're not grieving what needs to be grieved. You know, in a relationship where you're kind of like, "I'm not sure if I should stay with this person or not." It's like, "No, you are sure.

[00:12:00]You're just seeing what it means to make this decision, unwilling to feel the pain that comes with making the decision, and experiencing this thing called inhibited grieving, which means you're you're hiding from the pain that is inevitably going to follow. And that's that's that's manifesting as overthinking, but only because you're seeing the letter G in a sequence of letters that that leads up to it. You know what I mean?

[00:12:27]>> Yes, you're only looking at that. You're only looking at that. And I like that you pointed out that there's so much intentional conscious choice dedicated to it. That that it seems like, "Oh, I'm a I'm a sufferer of overthinking." It's like, "Well, also you're sort of like you're partnering with it, really." You know, like like a lot of people who You're like the Pizza Hut uh Taco Bell like half chain. You know, like where they partner together So, I'm sorry I interrupted. No, no, you're good. I'm >> [laughter and clears throat] >> I'll have I'll have a I'll have a Cheesy Gordita Crunch and uh a mini pizza, please. Yeah, yeah.

[00:13:01]>> [laughter] >> You're mixing I don't understand it, honestly. I don't know.

[00:13:05]No, but it's like I think like deep in the shadow of overthinkers is firmness and certainty and authority.

[00:13:14]You know, like if you have if you're someone who overthinks, it it likely means that you're someone who values analyzing all aspects of reality, and you've seen yourself and/or other people get hurt by authorities that claim to be certain and firm and and part of the issue I think with overthinkers is that you need to come to know, you know, that part of you that can be more authoritative. Um it's not always bad to sort of be um direct and and to and to leap a little more before you look. A lot of people with that overthink feel like, "Well, if I don't think about this more and more, then a lot of people might get hurt." Um and then they can really judge very harshly when somebody speaks on something without doing more research. And then they do more research and then they realize like, "Wait a minute, I'm actually the most competent person on the subject and I'm not speaking out because I'm afraid that I haven't done my research." But you know what happens when you constantly don't speak out? Well, it it makes it so that people who are less informed are speaking on it more confidently. And and now you're doing a disservice to the world by not speaking with your mouth.

[00:14:23]And so it's I think part of the issue with overthinkers is you have to learn that it's okay to to not have as much information before. You can trust your gut, you know, your gut is not evil.

[00:14:34]Anger is not evil, it's not demonic, you know?

[00:14:37]Well, I and I think this is This is what's confusing to overthinkers.

[00:14:41]They're like, "Why How did I Why am I overthinking the situation when I've Why am I an overthinker?" That's the question. But it's like you can't answer that in in in a vacuum. You have to look at If you had If you had no memory, you would not be an overthinker.

[00:15:00]Overthinking is a byproduct of past experiences where you made a decision, the decision didn't go well, the outcome wasn't the outcome wasn't um favorable, you you unfairly kind of shame yourself and beat yourself up. And that self-critical voice becomes this thing that's lording over you in all future situations. So, so overthinking is your mind trying to prevent some future kind of self-flagellation that you will likely do, and you're basically living in fear of your own self because you know how you treat yourself when things don't go well. So, it's like why are you overthinking?

[00:15:45]It's because you beat yourself up when things don't go well. But, the solution then is not going to be addressing the overthinking itself. And this is kind of like the way I like to do therapy in general. It's like, forget about overthinking. Let's look at the part of you that is living in fear of itself, and let's address that part because I think if you were to find a way to be kinder to yourself, or as one of my advisers in the past called it kindsight instead of hindsight, kindsight.

[00:16:13][clears throat] That's very sweet.

[00:16:15]>> [laughter] >> She's a very sweet person, but if you can develop this kindsight, I think over time you're going to reduce the need for overthinking because you won't be living in fear of yourself, you know?

[00:16:26]>> Yes. Like, I think the fear of yourself is a big part because I think a lot of people don't realize the power that comes with their gut. And the power of the gut is that you have this ability to learn based on trial and error. Like, that's what instincts are all about.

[00:16:40]Like, your instincts are connected to your gut. Thinking is connected to like disconnecting with your instincts to sort of create a game plan about how to deal with reality. But, what happens when you never use your instincts? What happens when you never allow yourself to be in a compromising situation? Well, the only place that instincts are born are in compromising situations, and then your body learns how to naturally sort of deal with reality. And so, what happens when you keep practicing trial and error, and you allow yourself to fall in a compromising situations? Well, now you're practicing just like martial arts, how to sort of respond with the gut that moves faster than rational thought. You you you like faster literally than you can imagine, you know, you can start to deal with reality. And but if you constantly go down the path of overthinking, then you're going to be stuck having to think more and more to deal with reality because now you're moving slower than everybody else. And then you're like, "Well, now I need to think more." You know, and it creates a cycle where you're going to be stuck reaping the benefits of your gifts if you're like in in some area of science or who knows what, but still suffering the feeling of like, "Why am I not like all the other humans?" Mhm. Mhm. And I wish I had a whiteboard cuz I feel like I want to draw what you're saying, and tell me if I'm wrong. But, I feel like your your full self Imagine your full self is this circle, right? And inside that circle is a much smaller circle that we'll call your ego, right? And your ego is limited to the the lines of its circle. So, it doesn't fully understand all of you, but it has some limited capacity and capability. Well, your ego is where overthinking happens.

[00:18:19]And your gut is is basically the larger circle in general. So, your gut is your gut is always absorbing information either actively it actually mostly passively. It's just taking in things that are in your experience.

[00:18:35]Whereas your ego is only kind of attending to what you're consciously aware of, right? So, your gut is constantly accruing information and is going to make an informed decision. But, your ego is is much smaller in that sense, and it only kind of only feels safe making decisions based on what it can palpably feel. And that's where you get in trouble, and I think this makes me think of The Matrix because in a lot in a lot of ways when there's this scene in The Matrix where where Neo has to jump to the other building, but the only way he can actually get to the other building is if he jumps from a place of that larger circle, not that smaller circle.

[00:19:19]If he jumps from a place of his limited ego, he's going to believe he's going to fall. But, if he jumps from a place of his gut, kind of grounded in the sense that he knows he's in a simulation, that he will make it to the other side because he's drawing from a larger data pool of his experience. And and to develop a connection with that part of yourself, it's not really developing a connection with a part of yourself. It's developing a connection with the entirety of yourself compared to the little tiny ego, which is what you're familiar with. 100%.

[00:19:56]>> [laughter] >> I I think you should write a book about that analogy.

[00:19:59]Like that that could be like and then you have the circle.

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