Christian King VS Eastern Orthodox - Sola Scriptura Debate

追加: 2026-05-11

[00:00:00]I guess I was I was saying >> prophecy to me is an indication that that scripture is true and when you look inside of scripture you see it teaching solos scriptorum.

[00:00:12]>> Hey guys, can you guys hear me?

[00:00:15]>> We can hear you.

[00:00:16]>> All right. Well, my name is Darren. Um, >> welcome.

[00:00:21]>> Eastern Orthodox. Uh, that's what I am.

[00:00:25]Uh but uh I guess uh was just I've seen you guys online and just wanted to have a conversation. It's been a fun a fun conversation though. I I did I wonder if there I would like I did come on hoping to have a conversation about soloscriptor and I know I might not be able to have that with the Catholic nerd but >> well I say I say Catholic I don't say Catholic nerd to slur. I just I thought that was your name.

[00:00:48]>> Darren it's random Catholic but I can certainly argue soul scriptor from the Protestant perspective if that's what you want.

[00:00:56]Uh, well, I'd rather actually argue with someone who actually believes it. I think we probably don't have a whole lot else to discuss.

[00:01:08]>> Hey, Darren. Uh, I I'll uh talk soloscript terror for a bit.

[00:01:13]>> Okay.

[00:01:15]>> What's uh Oh, this is Christian King.

[00:01:18]>> That's the host of the channel. And if you if you if you ever want to be cooked by, he's your guy.

[00:01:26]>> Welcome back.

[00:01:28]>> Very good.

[00:01:30]>> Hey, what's up?

[00:01:31]>> What's up, Christian King? God bless, bro.

[00:01:34]>> God bless.

[00:01:36]>> Back from CVS, CK. Really?

[00:01:40]>> No, I just woke up.

[00:01:42]>> Do you want our Do you want to roll down the one v one banner and make it official?

[00:01:47]>> Oh, sure.

[00:01:48]>> All right. So, I'll let I I'll leave you.

[00:01:52]>> Hell no. That don't say nothing like that.

[00:01:55]>> Is this just a conversation with me and Christian Key?

[00:01:58]>> Yeah.

[00:02:00]>> Yeah. So, I was just trying to get a little more understanding on Solar Scriptor. Um, now I mean I I've think I'm familiar with it and I thought I believed it in the past, but how uh if you do accept solos scriptor, how do you arrive at that that position?

[00:02:19]Uh well, first uh let's let's define that what to make sure we're on the same page.

[00:02:26]>> Sure.

[00:02:26]>> What what does that mean to you? Solos scripture.

[00:02:30]>> Uh scriptures the sole infallible rule of faith.

[00:02:38]>> Uh okay. Yeah. Yeah. The the only authority for the Christian faith and practice.

[00:02:45]>> The only infallible authority.

[00:02:47]>> Yeah. Yeah. Infallible. Yeah. Correct.

[00:02:51]>> Um, >> yeah.

[00:02:53]>> So, the reason I come to that is because this is what we see in scripture all the time. We even see Jesus appealing to scripture.

[00:03:04]>> Okay. So, you would say >> Oh, go ahead.

[00:03:10]>> No, you're good. Yeah. I mean, that's typically what people say. And they'll say, "Scripture is the only infallible rule of faith." And then they'll say, "How do how do they know that scripture is the only infallible rule of faith?"

[00:03:23]And then they'll go to specific Bible verses and try to say that. And my thought is there maybe that maybe they go to uh uh 2 Timothy 3:16 for things like that. And it seems like it's a circular a big circular argument where scripture is proved to be God's word because God's word says so.

[00:03:48]>> Well, that's that's not the only reason we know is that.

[00:03:53]>> So, for example, you know, if I were to ask you, how do you know that scripture is God's word? Like what would you say?

[00:04:02]Sorry, you asked me how if I knew how do I know a scripture was God's word? How what would I say?

[00:04:06]>> Yeah. Yeah. How do you how do you know it wasn't you know just some non- inspired guy wrote it just you know >> I would say because I would say looking at the historical texts which are commonly known as the Bible but I wouldn't call them the Bible yet. I would say they're historical documents. Let's just say the four gospels from historical documents and they're historically reliable and from that I believe the resurrection. I believe that Jesus Christ rose again and from there I think it's also historically verifiable. The again these books are not Bible at the time. They're not God's word. They're just historical books. From there I see Jesus started a church and that church through consensus recognized the books of the Bible. They recognize which books were accurate and they recognized those books to be the Bible.

[00:04:56]That's how I know it is uh God's word.

[00:04:59]It's not just because it tells me it is.

[00:05:01]It's because the church recognized it.

[00:05:09]>> Okay. Um I I don't know how you come to that or how that proves you know that it's you know from God. Uh cuz if you were to ask me the same question, I would say we know that scripture is the author of scripture is God because one for example the prophecies that we find in the Bible.

[00:05:36]Um makes it clear to me that it is from God and not just from man.

[00:05:42]um you know the fact that you have this huge you know project which is the Bible that was written in three different continents over thousand years in three different languages and it's all concise and consistent.

[00:05:58]You wouldn't be able to do that if it was if if it was uh oh and by 40 a over 40 authors.

[00:06:05]You wouldn't be able to do that by just a man's own efforts.

[00:06:11]If if you just had 40 40 people today write a book to get to to uh individually it would be a mess. It wouldn't make any sense. And yet you have this through over a thousand years and it's all concise. So it shows you that that it is in fact one author which can only be divine. And then you know like I said the prophecies uh you have uh prophecies that are in detail also and historically proven you know um and it's not like the prophecies you see in in uh the Quran or the prophecies you know of a Nostradamus which are all vague and and you know no these are uh precise. So uh all these to me show me uh you know uh evidence and proof that this is God's word and I don't need you know a group of people to tell me that it is.

[00:07:11]>> Okay. So you've given two reasons so far. So the prophecies being fulfilled and then also the fact that scripture tells you that it is from God. So is that a fair summary? two reasons why you go soloscriptor to be true.

[00:07:29]>> Uh I mean there's many others you know like uh you know you said uh historical uh evidence right? Uh we know Jesus for did in fact exist and that um people did you know believe this and die for you know uh claiming that that um Jesus resurrected.

[00:07:52]So there's there's a bunch of of evidence and I I don't need a group of people to tell me that it's true.

[00:08:00]>> Okay. So we could we could talk about the apostles dying for their faith and Sean McDow's new second edition on this book on on that which is probably not the apostles dying for their faith might not be as detailed as we thought it once was. um that whole topic of scholarship.

[00:08:20]But if I want to I I I'm just going to focus on some of the specific arguments because one of the reasons the the most common reason and the reason that you gave first though was because you know solos scriptor to be true scripture is the only infallible rule of faith because scripture says so and that that's that's a that is something you said earlier in our conversation, right?

[00:08:45]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah, because number one, right, I know this is from God.

[00:08:51]>> And if it's from God >> and and what I read in it tells me >> or I see the, you know, the the the teaching or concept of solos scriptor in God's word, then that's what I'm going to believe.

[00:09:06]>> Right? So, you know, it's from God because God said so. So that's that's a that's a certain prophecies for example, not just not because God says so.

[00:09:17]>> It's proven to be from God.

[00:09:19]>> Okay. So it's proven to be. So it's not the Bible is not God's word because the Bible says so. I just you you would reject it.

[00:09:29]>> Yeah. Okay. You know, because then because then you could just say, "Oh, the Quran is God's word because the Quran says so." But you have to prove it.

[00:09:44]>> Trust me, bro. Trust me, bro.

[00:09:46]>> Am I still there? Am I still in the chat?

[00:09:48]>> Yeah, I hear you now.

[00:09:50]>> Can you guys hear me? Hello?

[00:09:52]>> Yeah. Yeah, I hear you. Can you hear me?

[00:09:57]>> Hello? Can you guys hear me?

[00:09:59]>> Darren, you there?

[00:10:00]>> I don't think he can hear you. Okay.

[00:10:02]>> I I >> Yeah, seven streams.

[00:10:08]>> Darren, you still there?

[00:10:10]>> Yeah. I don't know what happened. I just It just sometimes just drops and so I have to I have to leave and then I have to join back in >> now. Go on. I I I'll let you.

[00:10:19]>> But yeah, I was I was saying I I don't I would not say that the Bible is God's word because it itself said so, right?

[00:10:29]Because then you could you could just say the same thing for the Quran. Well, the Quran says it's God's word. It's from God because it says so. But no, like that's not that's not an argument.

[00:10:40]You have to prove that it's from God.

[00:10:46]Okay.

[00:10:47]So, as far as prophecy goes, um don't do you think I would say prophecy could also be an indication to prove that one true church exists? Because I would say the church was prophesied in the Old Testament or at least the resurrection was prophesied in the Old Testament and um that the church was a mystery in the Old Testament was prophesied and this was fulfilled. And so could we not say there's one true church because of fulfilled prophecy just like you were trying to say that there's you know the the Bible is the word of God because of prophecy >> in in which prophecy?

[00:11:28]Well, like I mean the prophecy of the resurrection, prophecy of the new covenant, uh the new covenant in the Old Testament. I I forget which uh prophet that's in, but I think you would acknowledge that there's a prophecy of a Israel being given a new heart. And I would say that uh ultimately is fulfilled in the church and in Christ.

[00:11:52]>> Yeah. I I don't see the the connection though with that. And are you trying to connect that to >> Well, because it's fulfilled in the church. So like fulfilled prophecy, that's how you can the connection is one of the reasons you know the Bible is the word of God is because of fulfilled prophecy, right?

[00:12:12]>> Yeah. But how how can can you explain how exactly that's fulfilled in the church?

[00:12:18]>> Well, yeah. It says Israel is going to be given a new heart.

[00:12:23]Okay. That's the the new covenant in the Old Testament.

[00:12:28]Um, and also it's prophesied in the Old Testament that >> But even that is a future prophecy though that that hasn't even been completed right now.

[00:12:37]>> So do you you do you think when it says Israel's been given a new heart, do you think that refers to national Israel like?

[00:12:43]>> No, he says I will I will give >> Right. But do you think that refers will it refer to national Israel like a dis are you taking that like a dispensationalist?

[00:12:55]>> Well, when it's talking about I will give Israel a new heart like what what what else would you take that other than Israel?

[00:13:04]>> Well, I mean the new Israel would be the church.

[00:13:07]>> It doesn't say new Israel.

[00:13:09]>> Okay. So, wait. Are you a are you dispensationalist? You believe in the rapture and a literal millennial kingdom?

[00:13:16]Yeah, there's a millennial kingdom. Uh it says that Satan is is uh bound up for a thousand years while Jesus is reigning here on earth >> with his throne in Jerusalem.

[00:13:27]>> Amen.

[00:13:29]>> Okay. Um sorry, I did not know that that was your theological perspective. Um so we may we may have differences there on how the Old Test We'll probably have a lot of differences then on how the Old Testament is interpreted. Um, but going back to my original point though, some of those things I would say fulfilled prophecy, some fulfilled prophecy is fulfilled in the church from from an orthodox uh perspective or probably like all of it is fulfilled in Christ or fulfilled in the church.

[00:14:02]>> Yeah. Do do you hold more of a a partial predous view?

[00:14:08]>> No. No. just I mean I mean just uh it would be some I don't know exactly even know how Eastern Orthodoxy handles all these discussions but when I was a Protestant it's it's going to be something type similar to covenant theology um you can still hear me?

[00:14:38]Yeah.

[00:14:39]>> Um, but going back to soul scriptor because I could get we could get way in the weeds on that stuff.

[00:14:45]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:14:48]>> Um, fulfilled prophecy is an indication, one of the indications that solar scriptor is true. Um, I guess I was I was >> fulfilled prophecy to me is an indication that that scripture is true.

[00:15:08]And when you look inside of scripture, >> you see it teaching solos scriptorum.

[00:15:18]>> Yes. Um, I Okay. You see it you see it you see scripture teaching solos scriptor.

[00:15:25]>> Mhm.

[00:15:26]That's the part that I think is circular.

[00:15:30]I think you see you say scripture is you say solos scriptor is true and if you ask how you know you say well because it teaches it.

[00:15:43]>> I think there's two different conversations happening right now.

[00:15:49][laughter] >> Does that not does that not make sense?

[00:15:54]Does that not come off as a circular argument to you?

[00:15:58]>> Uh no, because again, you know, we it uh if if scripture teaches solos scripter, >> right? That I'm going to believe that.

[00:16:11]>> But but not just basically because it says so because I because to me I can prove that scripture is from God.

[00:16:21]So God's word is not circular. If God says something, it is >> and you know it's from God because of fulfilled prophecy.

[00:16:32]>> Yes. Among many other reasons.

[00:16:35]>> Okay. All right. Um, could that fulfilled prophecy not why can't that fulfilled prophecy apply to the church uh like an individual church and say it was and you may say it's an invisible church like maybe prophecy does apply to a church and that God leads his people through one singular church um and therefore there's one true church because of the Old Testament prophecies.

[00:17:11]>> Well, I I I don't understand.

[00:17:14]Okay.

[00:17:14]>> Are you saying you you saying you're saying >> Yeah. You're saying you know scriptures from God because of one of the reasons one of the many reasons is because of fulfilled prophecy.

[00:17:25]>> Yeah. For for example, you know, just to be specific uh the destruction of Babylon, for example.

[00:17:35]>> Okay. All right. So, that's just one of the reasons. And there's there's obviously hundreds of prophecies we could talk about specifically.

[00:17:44]And then, you know, that that tells you that scripture is from God. Now, could prophecy that's fulfilled in the church, just like prophecy tells you scripture is from God, you know, prophecy that's fulfilled in the church, can it also tell you that there is one true church because of how prophecy is fulfilled in the church?

[00:18:06]But which this is why I was asking earlier which which prophecy in specific that's fulfilled in the church.

[00:18:15]>> Well again I mean I would I would say the prophecy the Abrahamic covenant I mean the Davidic covenant promises made to Israel. Uh the new covenant made to Israel. All these promises are going to be fulfilled in Christ and in the church.

[00:18:31]>> Yeah. But how how does any of that disproves holoscriptura?

[00:18:35]Well, I guess I guess it's it's not necessarily so much about disproving directly solos scriptor Torah. It's probably more so about that argument cuts both ways. So the argument you're using to prove soloscriptor can also be used to prove a unique church just like it can be used to prove a unique word of God. And so how do you distinguish it to well it's only a support for solos scriptorra and not also a support for either eastern orthodoxy or Roman Catholicism. It seems like the argument uh doesn't apply to >> I think we're talking about >> we're talking about two two things, right? Cuz I agree there's only one church, >> but that doesn't disprove solos scriptura.

[00:19:27]>> Yes. Um I I that's I don't think that's necessarily exactly what I was saying either. Um >> cuz we're talking about solos scripture, right?

[00:19:39]>> Yeah. Yeah. But one of the foundations of the belief of how you got there was because of fulfilled prophecy. So the argument that you gave for fulfilled prophecy also can apply to also can apply to either it can apply to either Roman Catholicism or Easter or it can apply to it could apply to oriental orthodoxy.

[00:20:00]>> How exactly?

[00:20:02]Well, I explained that. I I can explain it again. Um, >> yeah, you were talking about the new covenant and stuff, but I don't see I don't see any >> I don't see what what >> the point is you're trying to make with that.

[00:20:21]>> Well, it's the same point you made about fulfilled prophecy, saying that uh the word of God is we know it's from God because of fulfilled prophecy. I'm saying we can know the church is true because of fulfilled prophecy. It's the same argument you're making just applied to a different application.

[00:20:38]>> What does that have to do with solar scriptoruma?

[00:20:41]>> I explained that earlier as well because the argument cuts both ways and so I don't think it's necessarily I don't think it's a >> somebody on the panel uh does maybe I'm not understanding. Does anybody understand Aaron?

[00:20:57]>> I don't think I >> you could translate that for me. No, there's two different conversations happening. He started out trying to refute or try to have a conversation about solos scriptor. Then it led to, oh, we can use the argument about solos scriptor to also prove that uh of one unique true church. So Darren, are you trying to argue against soloscriptor or are you trying to argue for your church?

[00:21:21]Which one are you trying to do? Because you can't do both.

[00:21:24]>> Yeah, that's what I that's what it seems like. like, you know, what does church have to do with?

[00:21:30]>> Yeah, I I was just making the argument >> I was just making the argument that I made. I I don't remember the two options that that guy gave me just a second ago, but I don't think either of those options is what I was necessarily trying to say. I was just trying to say Christian King's argument for solos scriptorra also applies to an argument for the one true church. And therefore, it's not a very good argument if it can apply.

[00:21:51]>> It is a very good argument. We the reason why we say it's a very good argument because we believe that there is one true church. So we agree with you. So the question is what is what is your motivation for this conversation?

[00:22:03]Are you trying to have a conversation about how soloscriptor is incorrect?

[00:22:09]Are you trying to prove that the Orthodox church is the one true church?

[00:22:13]Which CK is willing to have both those conversations but you have to choose one for the sake of the chat, for the sake of the panel >> and for the sake of this conversation.

[00:22:21]So, which one are you trying to choose?

[00:22:23]>> Well, I I was trying to have a conversation about I don't think Solar Scriptor is correct. That's what I was trying to >> Yeah. Okay. Go.

[00:22:30]>> Well, let's let's start with the >> believe it's not correct.

[00:22:34]>> Fairly obvious.

[00:22:36]>> I know, but but you were talking about the church, but why do you think solos scripture is not correct?

[00:22:45]He he was trying to connect the two arguments because the the at one point the Christian king you said that you believe that the Bible preaches solar scriptura and so Darren was then trying to say that that's a circular argument and he was then connecting it with the Catholic reasoning that the Catholic doctrine says we're the only church therefore we are the only church. So he he's trying to make the parallel there circular reasoning. At least that's what I think he was trying to do.

[00:23:16]>> No, that's not what he's doing. That's not Yeah, that's not what he's doing.

[00:23:19]Let CK have the conversation about Solos Scriptor, Mr. Steve.

[00:23:22]>> Yeah, Darren, why why do you think uh Soloscry is not true?

[00:23:26]>> Well, that guy that just summarized it, the first part was correct and then it it went further. But yeah, to answer your question directly about why do I not think solos scriptor Torah is true is because typically when people have historically argued for soloscriptor say the most one of the most prominent books right now is why why be Protestant or something by uh Gavin Orland and in that book their argument for solos scriptorer is because scripture is unique and then they cite Bible verses for why soloscriptor is true. I I want to know why you think it is not true, not why others why somebody else thinks it's true.

[00:24:06]>> Yeah. Can you give me a clarifying question right quick? But Darren, I just want to ask a clarifying question. No, I it's important, right?

[00:24:13]>> Because both of you believe that scripture is infallible. It's an infallible rule of faith. The difference between solos scriptor and what you believe is you believe there are other infallible rules of faith. Now prove that your other infallible rules of faith are true and you win the argument about soloscriptor.

[00:24:34]>> Yeah, that'd be easy easy W.

[00:24:37]>> Yeah. And if I could I'll tell you why I don't think you asked me before why soloscriptor is not true and then maybe prove why other things are infallible.

[00:24:45]I'll do that if you can just give me like you know I promise I can answer that within like a minute if I could just have a minute without being interrupted. But yeah, I think again what I was saying, they typically say so scripture is unique because of specific Bible verses. And it's like, well, why is solos scriptor true? Because the Bible says scripture is unique. That's a circular argument if people make that argument. Now, it sounds like the Christian king wasn't making that argument. So, I think that's good. The second part, how do I know about another infallible rule other than scripture?

[00:25:17]Again I talked about earlier about um we recognize things from history. I start with being able to recognize the resurrection. Then I acknowledge that there is a church that Jesus started and that church decides things through consensus and historically we see that at the Jerusalem Council and then of course as as history goes on then they start to recognize the books of the Bible.

[00:25:45]So what in history proves that your church is infallible?

[00:25:54]>> Um well this eventually everyone has to come down to a you know your private assessment or your private judgment like I make a private judgment that Eastern Orthodoxy is true. You make a private judgment that solostori is true. And so I just arrive at the knowledge that God exists. And the way that God spoke through the world is through his resurrection and then through a church and then through a church that recognizes things in cons in councils in consiliarity or you know agreement. So that's how I would know Eastern Orthodoxy and history is has the capability of speaking infallibly.

[00:26:39]What exactly there proves that they are infallible just because they they got together?

[00:26:49]>> Well, no. Ultimately, it come back to God. Of course, it goes from God to the resurrection to a church being started to people >> I agree with >> through the through through the Holy Spirit speaking through like the Jerusalem council then obviously through the council of Nika then the council of Constantinople so on so forth all the way through today.

[00:27:12]>> Yeah. But there's differences there like the council in Jerusalem had had apostles that were inspired by God. all the other councils don't.

[00:27:23]>> Well, yes, I understand that you could say that it's just about the apostles, but then I mean, of course, then we would disagree probably on apostolic succession, but I would say that being hands being laid on down through the through the apostles to the bishops would allow the Holy Spirit to still speak through the bishops when they get together.

[00:27:45]Otherwise, you're left with just a private a private interpretation of what's true and what's not true.

[00:27:57]>> So, uh, which which verse does, so you're saying that the apostles passed on their their own authority to bishops?

[00:28:12]uh not the exact same authority but to some extent yes through apostolic succession and the laying on of hands.

[00:28:22]>> So what do you mean to some extent? What so what what exactly um kind of authority do they pass?

[00:28:29]>> Apostles apostles were able to pin scripture. Okay. They or the Holy Spirit spoke through the apostles to pin scripture. Bishops do not have that ability. So that was not passed on.

[00:28:43]That's what I mean.

[00:28:44]>> Okay. So there's the difference between the council in Jerusalem and all these other councils. They don't have that.

[00:28:52]>> They don't have the ability to pin scripture. But that doesn't mean they don't have the ability to recognize what God is infallibly teaching through the Holy Spirit. I would say that is passed on.

[00:29:04]So when when the councils would um you know talk about stuff and and decide on things, what would they use to come to those conclusions?

[00:29:19]They of course they use the history of the saints and what the holy spirit has been teaching through the church through consensus they use and that's also a part of what commonly got understood or recognized as scripture just like they recognize scripture they also recognize the truth at ecumenical councils it's a recognition it's an acknowledgement it's not they it's not they just decided it's It's not like they decided, they recognized what is true and what is false.

[00:29:53]>> Right? And we have those same scriptures today.

[00:29:57]But right, the question still remains, how are they or your church or or these councils infallible?

[00:30:08]>> Again, infallibility comes back to God.

[00:30:12]I I said that earlier. I think he would say the same thing. Oh, God God made them infallible >> through the Holy Spirit. God used consensus of the of the Eastern Orthodox Church to arrive at infallibility of of of truth. It's really it's a private truth because truth truth is >> how do you prove that? How do you prove that other than just saying, "Oh, because I say so or I think so." Well, I explained that earlier, so maybe I need to take it a little slower, but and I'll I'll toss it back to you, too. But again, um, how do I prove it? Uh, it's because, oh, again, it comes back to the resurrection. I acknowledge historically that Jesus Christ rose from the dead. I just think that's the most likely thing that happened. Bodily rose from the dead. From there, I also think it's most likely historically that Jesus started a church. And I think that church speaks through the Holy Spirit. It seemed good to us uh and to the Holy Spirit at the Jerusalem Council that they would speak through a council or through consiliarity.

[00:31:23]>> Yeah.

[00:31:25]>> We're going in a circle though because those were apostles there.

[00:31:31]>> These other councils didn't have apostles, >> right? Right. And I gave a justification for that as well. So, how do you arrive?

[00:31:38]>> You said you said, "Oh, they passed out.

[00:31:40]They passed down their authority, but it was not even the same authority."

[00:31:45]>> Well, yeah, exactly. That's exactly what I said. So, how do you arrive?

[00:31:50]>> How exactly then are they infallible?

[00:31:56]>> I explained that, >> but I Do you want me to explain it again? H. [clears throat] No, that doesn't. What you said doesn't explain that.

[00:32:07]>> Well, I think it does. We may disagree there, but how do you arrive? Let's go back to you. How do you arrive at infallibility?

[00:32:14]>> I'm not infallible.

[00:32:16]>> Right.

[00:32:17]>> Yeah. What did he say that explained it?

[00:32:20]>> He said, >> I think he said >> because of the resurrection and that Jesus started a church.

[00:32:28]>> He said that because them the council had consensus among them.

[00:32:31]>> Oh, and then the the Jerusalem Council.

[00:32:33]But again, it's like >> many people Yeah. Many groups have agreed on something and been wrong about it. Like just having agreement between men. Having a consensus doesn't make sense.

[00:32:47]>> Yeah. That's why that's why I also talked about apostolic concession as succession. I'm not sure >> succession. to me as someone who's listening in on a conversation. I'm not participating, but I don't think that explained anything. Like you you you gave a bunch of different like you gave example one, A, B, and C, but then you got to get us to the conclusion. The conclusion does not follow from those three that you gave us.

[00:33:12]>> Yeah. I mean, that's fine. You maybe you guys misheard me and you may feel that way. Um I could keep trying to explain it over and over again, but I'll toss the question back to Christian King. I know you say you're not infallible, but you'd say the Bible is infallible. So, how do you arrive at the Bible being infallible?

[00:33:32]>> So, if if it's proven to be God's word, >> you you don't think it's it it's infallible?

[00:33:42]Like, can God's word be fallible?

[00:33:47]Uh, I would say of course if it's proven to be God's word, it is infallible. But how do you prove that it is God's word?

[00:33:56]That's what we were talking about in the beginning. There's many ways. The prophecies, you know, the fact that the whole book is concise even though it was written by 40 different authors in three different continents over a thousand years.

[00:34:12]>> Yeah. Okay. And >> so, so if if we prove that scripture, the author of scripture is God, then you would have to say that God's word is infallible.

[00:34:26]Unless you want to say God is is fallible.

[00:34:33]>> Uh, no. I I mean, I already answered that and yes, we had the conversation earlier about the prophecy and things like that. And that's why I tried to have the conversation again back then about the prophecy being towards the church as well. And it's an argument that goes both ways. You remember all that?

[00:34:54]>> No, bro. That like these these prophecies, none of these prophecy I mean unless you could show me a prophecy shows that the church is infallible.

[00:35:05]None. Well, it's not so much about showing the prophecy that the church is infallible. You wouldn't even say, would you say the prophecy doesn't directly say God's word is infallible? It's about the prophecies coming true. That's a miracle of an indication that God's word is infallible. It's it does it doesn't have to say it explicitly.

[00:35:30]>> Do we not agree that God's word is in infallible? Do we not agree on this?

[00:35:34]>> That's what I'm wondering. Yeah.

[00:35:37]I mean, you do you have evidence that God's word is fallible? If we flip the question, rather than trying to work out how how to prove it is infallible, should we try and have you got proof it's fallible?

[00:35:50]>> I don't think God's word is fallible. I think that's >> So, so let me let me help out your argument, Darren, because what's happening is that you're arguing from the wrong case. It's not you shouldn't be ar if you want to go against solos scriptorera that what you want to focus on is Christian king's interpretation of god's infallible word because right now you're putting god against his his own word and you're saying that there might be a like we should not argue that god word is uh infallible you believe his word is infallible. We believe his word is fallible. You have to ask Christian King why is your interpretation of scripture why is that correct and why can that be the sole infallible um rule of faith because that that's the crux of it and then then after you have that conversation with Christian king you could say you know what my church offers an infallible interpretation of scripture that's what I could offer over your solos scriptorer that's the argument you should be having >> yeah And we're all waiting. Even Random is patiently. He's he's we're all staying out of this conversation cuz we're trying to have you have that kind of conversation. And CK is being very good about this. But that's what you should be doing.

[00:37:02]>> So his interpretation is >> I really am being very quiet right now.

[00:37:06]>> Yeah. Attack is interpretation of scripture, not not not scripture itself.

[00:37:09]Attack is interpretation of scripture.

[00:37:11]>> Can I ask Can I ask >> We could do that, but you know, then that goes into a whole different topic about interpretation. Then we leave solos scriptorum. C can I have can I have can I ask one question CK or two questions? Can I ask two questions CK?

[00:37:24]>> Yeah, go ahead.

[00:37:25]>> Darren Darren, do you believe that the apostles are inspired by God?

[00:37:32]>> Um, well, you know, a lot of people jumped in and said things and that was something I talked about in the very beginning of the conversation that I was trying to avoid. But the first guy that was talking there earlier, you know, I I think he I don't think he understood me and he misrepresented me about where the conversation needed to go. Uh do I think the apostles are inspired? Was that the person who just asked me a question there?

[00:37:56]>> Yeah. Are they inspired by God?

[00:37:59]I think not everything they said and did was inspired, but I think through the recognition of the church and their acknowledge of their writings and the Holy Spirit spoke through certain of their writings that is inspired. Yes.

[00:38:17]>> So I just want to clarify, right? So the apostles themselves, the men accepted by Christ into his disciplehip are not inspired men inspired by God and Christ.

[00:38:33]>> Oh, I don't understand at all what you just said, but the Holy Spirit spoke through them to pin scripture.

[00:38:40]>> Okay, but that that's fine. Right. So So now the the penned scripture we we've now eliminated, right? We we've now come to the conclusion, right, that uh 25 of the 27 books of the New Testament were written by inspired writers.

[00:39:05]>> I don't know if I would say inspired writers. I would just say that they it just was the Holy Spirit spoke through them through those writings. Yes. to to put words on a page that we were then able to receive, right? So, their inspiration, their their so authority, right? Oh, no.

[00:39:28]Now he's gone.

[00:39:35]>> Are you back?

[00:39:36]>> He's back.

[00:39:45]I'm going to wait for him to speak before back in icon only.

[00:39:59]>> Yeah.

[00:40:04]>> I mean, like, leave a comment. Our our argument our argument over what is inspired has nothing to do with the New Testament. We all believe so as Christians everyone on this panel and I would say most EOS believe that the apostles were inspired writers. That takes care of 25 of the 27 books of the New Testament and and uh Mark and Luke were inspired by God to write their gospels. That takes care of the other two. Right? We're good. Right? The New Testament is clear. Right? our argument is over what is inspired text in the Old Testament, right? That that's the only argument.

[00:40:42]So again, I I I just think the I I think this conversation is missing the mark a little bit because as Gray said, the argument isn't over whether or not scripture is inspired and infallible.

[00:40:54]Everybody believes that's true. The argument is over whether there is an authority other than scripture that can help us come to conclusions about scripture for rules of faith and practice which in the Catholic church we call the magisterium. In the Orthodox church they call it whatever they call it. I don't even know what that is.

[00:41:12]>> I think it's like tradition or something.

[00:41:14]>> Yeah.

[00:41:15]>> But it almost sounded like he was saying the church councils are >> um >> even more invaluable than the the word.

[00:41:24]>> Yeah. Yeah, I think we should let him get back with CK. Definitely lost service. Yeah. Is he there?

[00:41:30]>> I don't think he's back yet.

[00:41:31]>> He's chatting in the back though.

[00:41:33]>> Yeah, he's chatting. I I don't think he can speak.

[00:41:35]>> Are you there?

[00:41:38]>> Unmute your mic if it's muted.

[00:41:40]>> Check your sound settings. Make sure your mic is correct.

[00:41:46]>> Yeah, if you're on your phone, make sure you hit like allow. Sometimes people do allow this time instead of like allow all the time for the mic access.

[00:41:56]Yeah. Okay.

[00:41:59]Okay. No, the only reason why I said that because I never really hear people orthodox come with the line of thinking that he's doing. They always attack your epistemology. So like >> which is great. That means he's definitely not a diorite, right? So I'm good. Darren, >> you there?

[00:42:18]All right, I'll be back in a few minutes, guys.

[00:42:23]>> All right, go.

[00:42:24]>> Are you saying it's better to click all the time on the back instead of this one time >> if you if you don't remember? Cuz sometimes people when they get that um that notification or that that message, that pop-up message, they just ignore it immediately.

[00:42:39]>> No, but I like CK style cuz CK has that kind of very slow like, "What do you mean by that? Explain what you mean by that." like he he'll just make you have to substantiate everything that you say and it's very very slow very very slow and it it almost disarms the person cuz usually a lot of orthodox they come in hot like it sounds I thought Darren was a like all all due respect he did a great job but I thought he's a little bit more knowledgeable and had a little bit more of a stronger argument and I think that CK kind of disarmed him um making up substantiate and that's why he was so >> yep >> so so ready to try to push it back on CK >> Yep. I agree.

[00:43:15]>> And and it slowed him down, too. You notice the speech got a lot slower because of that. And that's a sign.

[00:43:21]>> It's matching energy. And CK, whether whether you whether you like it or whether you love it or hate it, CK's energy, his mind is quick, but his his speech pattern is methodical and slow and precise.

[00:43:35]>> Yeah. Slow and calling. That fighting style that you can't wait to see CK in a real debate, man. You know, dodging him.