Can the Father Say 'I Am the Son'?

Hinzugefügt: 2026-05-23

[00:00:00]Hi.

[00:00:02]Hello. What's the deal?

[00:00:05]Nothing much, but um So, I wanted to talk about the I the argument for indexicals.

[00:00:13]Yeah.

[00:00:14]>> the word? Mhm.

[00:00:16]So, I'm I'm not quite understanding that one because I think you said something that didn't make sense to me. Like, you said something about um how the I is indexed to the person of Jesus.

[00:00:32]Well, this I is going to be indexed to whoever the I is supposed to be referring to. Um So, when we have the proposition Well, first of all, all of this is uh in my Patreon. Like, when you subscribe to the $50 tier, you get all these I know I'm just playing with you. But, um So, when you say, "I am the son." Right? And you're saying that this is a true proposition here.

[00:01:01]What you're saying is that this I is indexed to the person Jesus. Right?

[00:01:08]Uh So, But, wouldn't it be indexed to the person speaking?

[00:01:17]I mean, not nece- Not always. Like, um I mean, yeah. Like, when I say like, "I am black." Like, that's going to be the person speaking. But, the only way in which this is um true is that uh it's going to be referring to a particular person. So, God knows like all true propositions.

[00:01:38]So, what they're trying to say in the indexical argument is that the Father, Son, and Spirit know different propositions. Now, this is the proposition in question what usually people are going to bring up, right? The proposition, "I am the son."

[00:01:53]Right? Does Does know the proposition, "I am the son? Yeah.

[00:01:58]Does the father know the proposition I am the son?

[00:02:02]Yeah.

[00:02:03]Because Well, I think I think what he was saying was that um could could the father affirm that he that he is the son? Like could he say and affirm to be true that quote unquote I am the son.

[00:02:20]And I think that >> Who's the I indexed to?

[00:02:23]Cuz like notice what you're saying.

[00:02:25]>> Wouldn't it be the person speaking like in grammar? No.

[00:02:28]>> Like in English? You can You can affirm the proposition I am an African-American male.

[00:02:35]That proposition, I am an African-American male.

[00:02:39]That's true, right? You could affirm that, right?

[00:02:44]That you are an African-American male?

[00:02:46]That I is indexed to me. So in so far as that indexical Exactly. But in so far as that I is indexed to the person of Elijah, for example. That proposition is true. So you can affirm that, although you are not an African-American male.

[00:03:04]That proposition, I am an African-American male is true because the I is indexed to a person that is an African-American male.

[00:03:14]So the only the only way that this proposition is true is if the I is indexed to the person of the son.

[00:03:24]If it is not indexed to the person of the son, that is a false proposition.

[00:03:29]And none of the the persons know that proposition.

[00:03:34]Cuz you don't know false propositions.

[00:03:37]Okay, but here I was thinking about that, too, right? Because they can't like they can't know something that's not true. Exactly.

[00:03:44]>> But when you think of it like wait when you just said that I can say that you are an African-American male, but I can't say that my I myself am an African-American male, but you can say that. So, you know what is true. You know that you are an African-American male.

[00:04:03]But I know that I am not an African-American male. And those would be like we wouldn't we know two different things?

[00:04:12]Okay.

[00:04:14]Let's we're going to simplify it.

[00:04:16]This And this is why you just it's an equivocation on the term I. You're taking it to mean that I means the same thing in both of those propositions, but that's not true because I very clearly is referring to something different in between those two propositions.

[00:04:35]So, we can just let's break it down, which is why I have this, right?

[00:04:40]Uh and I can't see Yeah, like can you let up A cuz my my stuff is going to trip out.

[00:04:47]So, we'll >> reason why Hold on, we'll simplify >> But We'll simplify the proposition so that you can follow along.

[00:04:55]I am the son simply means Jesus is the son.

[00:05:00]That's all it means. Now, you're asking if the father can take the place of the I here, which now means that this proposition becomes the father is the son.

[00:05:16]That's false.

[00:05:21]So, you're you're equivocating on I.

[00:05:24]You're saying that this I must mean the same thing in both of the propositions, but when we simplify the proposition, instead of using the indexical cuz it's vague and it changes depending on the context, we'll just say who the the indexical is referring to.

[00:05:40]Jesus. Okay, so the proposition >> That's not really what I think that they're saying, though. That's exactly what they're saying.

[00:05:48]>> argument. That's literally exactly what they're saying.

[00:05:51]>> type out something, Elijah? Of course.

[00:05:54]Cuz you type out like "Father says I am the son" and then like "Jesus says I am the son."

[00:06:01]Yeah.

[00:06:03]I'll just create another page.

[00:06:05]And you were saying that since the Father the Father is the Son they like the Father can't know that cuz it's false.

[00:06:13]Yeah. Yeah, cuz the argument they make, right, is that if they're not able to believe all the same propositions. Are you familiar with what a proposition is?

[00:06:25]Um yeah.

[00:06:27]Yeah, it's just like a statement that can be true or false.

[00:06:31]So um the argument goes, well, if they can't believe all the same statements then they have different knowledge, right? And so they'll say, well, the the the Father doesn't believe I am the Son, but the Son does believe the statement I am the Son, and therefore they can't believe the same statements, right?

[00:06:50]But if you notice here on the screen are those are those two in context are they the same statements?

[00:06:58]Like I am the Son when the Father says it and I am the Son when the Son says it. Is are those two the same statements?

[00:07:06]No.

[00:07:09]Right, they look the same because they use the same words, but the meaning of the words are different because of the context. In the first statement the I is referring to the Father, in the second the I is referring to the Son.

[00:07:22]Right?

[00:07:23]So their argument fails because the statements that they're trying to say that one believes and the other one doesn't, they're not actually the same statements.

[00:07:32]And that's why their argument fails.

[00:07:37]Okay, uh can we like can we stray away from the argument for a little bit?

[00:07:44]Okay.

[00:07:44]>> And just like >> Hell no. go to like Okay.

[00:07:50]But okay, so I cuz I understood this differently.

[00:07:55]And I don't think they're like understanding what I'm saying.

[00:08:00]So I know that the father can't know something that's false.

[00:08:05]The father can know something that is true.

[00:08:08]So when the father knows that he is not the son that's true. He can know that, but he can't know like he he can't know like that he is the son cuz that's false, but he can know that he is not the son.

[00:08:26]Yes.

[00:08:27]>> Um And And the son can know that he is the son.

[00:08:37]Yes.

[00:08:39]So like that's different.

[00:08:47]Well, again it would be different if those two statements were the same statement.

[00:08:53]But they're not the same statement as we said. The he there in one instance refers to the father. In the other instance refers to the son or Jesus. I saw it. If you just simplify the the statement that you're saying he is not the son.

[00:09:10]Just remove the indexical of he and replace it with the person you're talking about.

[00:09:16]Say it. What does it What does it sound like when you remove the indexical he is not the son and replace it with the person you're talking about. What is What does that that statement sound like?

[00:09:29]The The father is not the son. You know like Does Does the son know that?

[00:09:36]That the father's not the Son, yes.

[00:09:40]So then they know the same thing.

[00:09:44]Like if Elijah were to ask me, do you know that I am black? Right? I the I referring to Elijah. I would say, yes, I do know that.

[00:09:52]And I would say I do know that you are black.

[00:09:55]Because those two statements in context, they're really exactly the same in meaning. They have the exact same meaning.

[00:10:05]Otherwise, you have to Okay. Yeah, just I think I understand now.

[00:10:10]Yeah, just for simple to simplify, just remove the you could literally just remove the indexical.

[00:10:21]But it's not okay.

[00:10:23]So it's not about affirming cuz it can't affirm something That's false.

[00:10:27]>> That's false.

[00:10:31]But like they can affirm like the same way he said he can affirm I am black.

[00:10:35]Okay, when the I is indexed to Elijah, they can affirm the statement I am the Son when the I is referring to the person of the Son. That's a true statement.

[00:10:46]And mind you, otherwise you'd have to say God doesn't >> They can but I don't really understand what the issue is with them like affirming different things.

[00:11:01]With affirming different things?

[00:11:04]Yeah, like the Son affirms that he is the Son, the Father affirms that he is the Father. That they're they're not affirming that they are each other.

[00:11:12]But like what's the issue with them like affirming different things?

[00:11:19]Well, that just depends as to what you mean. Um Because I think what you you like you can't in that argument like you can't say that like that they affirm different things cuz that would mean different minds, I guess.

[00:11:37]Well, one can't affirm something that the other denies. That would be different minds.

[00:11:42]Like if I if I believe that um that I'm black and Elijah doesn't believe that I'm black, then that would indicate to us that we have different minds cuz we're we're believing different things.

[00:11:58]Okay.

[00:12:02]Okay. That that makes sense.

[00:12:05]Okay. If you want, obviously, you can always watch back this conversation.

[00:12:12]Okay. All right. Thank y'all.