Is Unionism Failing the Next Generation?

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[00:00:01]Hello and welcome to the Storm and Sources podcast where we take you inside politics across Northern Ireland. I'm David McCann and also on the podcast we have one of our two regulars. Yes, Michael McCarnney is back from his holidays. Michael, hope you had a nice time. Thank you for coming back and joining us.

[00:00:16]>> I had a great time just as you clearly have a great haircut.

[00:00:20]>> Thank you. Thank you very much for for the compliments. Now, we are missing our resident unionist Kerbage.in. Yes, Tim Karns. we've allowed him away for this week, but Tim did make a plea to people to make sure nobody burgled Michael's house whilst he was away. So, I'm delighted, Michael, that your house seems to be one piece of the back.

[00:00:37]>> I would like to I would like to offer the same uh facilities, >> but Tim will be back with us next week.

[00:00:43]Um uh but don't worry, we will be talking about identity, unice identity a little bit later in the podcast. So, stay tuned for that. On the podcast today, we are looking at a column by Ununice commentator Sarah Kiteon. She is writing last week in the Irish News about the sense of Britishness and her identity and why it isn't as simple as people may look at at first glance.

[00:01:05]We'll be talking with her later on the podcast. Then coming up on the podcast, we will be talking about Paul Dockert's departure from the SDLP over the vote over whether the Bobby Sand statue should be removed in West Belfast. So, we'll be getting some reaction to that.

[00:01:20]Then we're going to be talking about the recent chimpanesh that was held in Belfast over the weekend. We'll be talking about is the party in trouble and also the party's new commitment to reform. All that and more coming up on this edition of Storm Sources.

[00:01:37]Okay, welcome back to the Stormant Sources podcast. Now, a article in the Irish news that caught our eye was by none other than Sarah Kitton. Sarah is for anyone who is a listener to the podcast. We've referenced her once or twice, but she is a unionist uh columnist and commentator here in Northern Ireland. So, she kind of writes from a bit more of a progressive unionist slant here. So, not like the the the regular views you get here on Storm Sources from Tim Karns. Um so, we thought we would bring her on because the column she wrote I thought and I got some stick for saying this. I thought was incredibly brave. It's well worth looking at on the Irish News website.

[00:02:19]But she was writing a rebuttal to this notion of what it means to be a Protestant, what it means to be British, what it means to be Irish, and she had a killer line in it um about everyone wants a Protestant on their panel, but not everyone wants to hear a Protestant voice. Now, on Storming Sources, we do things a little bit differently here, so we thought we would get her on our panel to hear to hear her voice and to hear what it was she was writing about. So, we're delighted to be joined by none other than Sarah Cretton. Sarah, you're very welcome to Storm Sources.

[00:02:50]>> Thank you very much. Thanks for asking me to join you.

[00:02:52]>> Um, so Sarah, just start off the rationale for the piece because it did get um it did kind of take off online.

[00:02:59]Um, what provoked you to write the piece? I know the answer to that, but for any of our listeners who who haven't uh who haven't read it, um what provoked you to write? To be honest with you, I had another column written and actually was about to file when I'd read Brian's column and I thought, >> so this is Brian Feny who is another Yeah. who you know, I know Brian not very well, but I've met him personally.

[00:03:23]He's a lovely man. Have nothing against him personally. it it was just I read his column and I just thought I think I want to respond to this cuz I thought he was completely wrong and um said to the editor I think I'd like to do this and he was like yes do that. Um so I'm glad I did. Um I think I felt more strongly about it than I did my first piece. Um, it's just, you know, and I don't think I stated anything that anybody else I think I've stated what other people have already said before.

[00:03:55]>> So, so let me let me just write this is from the opening line of your um of your piece. Um, and we already quoted the the the killer line when it comes to identity. Everyone has an opinion on what Protestants are. We are talked at, not listened to. Everyone wants a Protestant on their panel. The few want a Protestant voice. When I attend events, there's always a tedious man in the audience who thinks that he's the first person in the world to reveal that the Brits don't care. Identity is complicated in Northern Ireland. So, um, obviously you are referring back to you you're referring to that kind of notion that that that you get from people who are supportive of Irish unification. That's a it's a refrain back. Oh, well, sure. The Brits don't the Brits don't watch. It's a bit like when I get sure if you like the Republic so much why don't you move to it. So >> yeah it's you know I only ever do panels when I think that the people involved actually do care about a diverse set of opinions. Um you know I've always done faila because they get criticized as like a a Republican talking shop but to be honest but yeah I've had some really good debates at fail that I have not been given the opportunity elsewhere which is besides the point. But yeah, it just I I have seen other panel events and I'm not going to get into who >> where you know there are people from a Protestant background on it and it's quite obvious that the purpose of them being there is to tell people what they want to hear.

[00:05:22]>> Yeah.

[00:05:22]>> Really. Um, and I which is fine, but I just I I think there's a kind of there's a type of Protestant that gets invited to those events and it's it's sometimes very frustrating because you think actually I think this audience would benefit from hearing from a different point of view and obviously Protestants in Northern Ireland were abroad spectrum you know you will never get one opinion that's the same. So, you know, you've pointed out me and Tim have completely different views on many things which is absolutely fine. Um but yeah, it is it is that thing of um it it literally happens every time I've done fail is actually one there's always someone in the audience that's like but you know they don't really care about you and it's it's it's it is very frustrating because everybody knows that and obviously you will get some unionists that will probably say no well actually there's more interest than you would think. Um there probably is in certain institutions in England, but I think they're far and few between. But actually on the ground, the attitude is one of indifference really, which which I think is obvious to everyone really.

[00:06:25]It's it's not an original point.

[00:06:27]>> You you've also said in here, so you say how people identify is up to them and nobody else should care. I am British and Irish. My Britishness is uniquely Northern Irish. While I consider Britain to be the mainland, my sense of identity is different and I'm proud of that. My Irish identity comes from my connection to Olter and the island of Ireland, but I'm not Irish like my nationalist friends. To identify me with one and not the other would feel like cutting off a part of myself. So, this is one of the things that, you know, we've talked about on this podcast before about how complex identity is. It's not actually a binary. Well, for some people it is a binary thing. So, for example, I consider myself Irish only. It's just I don't consider myself to be British. I just I wouldn't use the term Northern Irish to describe myself either, but >> I appreciate there are other people from a different point of view. I mean from the identity spectrum, I mean do you think do you think that we are well served in catering to the the molds or the melding the melting pot sorry of identities that we have?

[00:07:30]>> No, I don't. Um I think um each of the political parties very much catered to that British Irish binary. Um now don't get me wrong even with on both sides you know there is I think a slight it's better than what it was when I was younger definitely you know you you will get for instance Shinfane have been doing events that would very much cater to people who have a British identity you know like remembrance day services you know the DUP um have made some gestures around the Irish language though I know nationalists would say they haven't done enough um alliance and things like that will probably cater more to more than Irish sense of identity and I know that actually that can alienate people from the national stand unionist tradition as well but yeah it it but the other hand it is so complicated as I say that you know you can't possibly expect the parties to cater to everyone but I do think it would be nicer if they saw the nuances and that it's not just one or the other for a lot of people >> so just one more question before I hand it over to Michael um where is it then I mean because whenever we're thinking about identity particularly often And the fascination in Northern Ireland politics is about unionist identity and unionism, how it expresses it. I think you and Tin had a bit of a disagreement about that about what makes someone a unionist or not.

[00:08:51]>> Um, why do you think it's the fascination with unionism and unionist identity? Why do you think that is so fascinating to people or maybe so so maybe poorly understood?

[00:09:04]I think I guess because it is slightly an unknown um you know in popular culture you know even in movies, music, books, literature you know the Irish nationalist identity would have more representation um you know when you go to America people know the story of of Catholics in Northern Ireland where you know if you say you're a Protestant they don't know so much about it and obviously that's just noteable but I do think that is the case. Um there's a fascination with it because it's so unique. Um I also think in Northern Ireland because what we're seeing now is unionism is becoming a minority and particularly in the last 10 years has made some catastrophic mistakes in my view and I think there's a kind of fascination with how identity is changing particularly post Good Friday agreement. Um I I just think it comes from a place of people not really understanding. We've always been a community that people don't really quite get what we're what we're getting at. I think I do think some people come to this genuine interest and fascination, but at the same time, it's it's not nice when people treat us like we're a specimen to be kind of pulled apart at the same time as well.

[00:10:14]>> Okay, Michael.

[00:10:16]>> Well, I wouldn't disagree with that because nobody in politics wants to be a specimen to be to be pulled apart.

[00:10:22]Although I I have to say I um I I've watched you over the years as a commentator Sarah and always thought you were very thoughtful and reasonable >> and so on. Um and in my own head I have you on the political spectrum rightly or wrongly uh somewhere around clear so >> Mhm.

[00:10:42]>> in the direction slightly of the alliance party uh from there but um and but it doesn't really matter where you are and equally it doesn't matter certainly doesn't matter to me that you're a Protestant. What matters to me is that you're a unionist.

[00:10:59]And and I think uh uh the one the one mistake he made with your article was being being motivated by a determination to respond to Brian Feny because even though Brian Feny is, as you say, a nice man, Brian Feny just writes with great gusto and a a degree of bitterness. um uh about life in general as well as uh unionist politics and and in particular the Northern Ireland office, the Secretary of State uh etc. So I would I wouldn't have responded to but I think it is interesting. I think I think the central thrust that you know Protestant British not so much Irish maybe a bit Northern Irish uh I mean we've been there before. That's the whole offering from the whole John Huitt output. We've had a John Huitt festival for 40 years.

[00:11:57]I I think people are um less concerned about this Protestant but but also less attuned to the to the notion the John Hu notion and maybe echoed in your article that uh if we could recognize each other's identities and respect them more, we might be able to make some more political progress. And that might be right, but I think you can't get away in the end from the constitutional difference that there is a growing minority heading towards a half uh that wants constitutional change. And while happily and thankfully those who were prepared to pursue that violently uh have stopped uh or for the most part anyway um and I I don't think you can get away with that with all the respect in the world and with all the friendliness and goodwill I don't think you can get away from that constitutional aspirational difference.

[00:12:55]What do you say to that?

[00:12:57]>> No, I mean I would agree with you. I mean I don't think I don't think I was arguing that that's not there. I suppose um if I'm taking what you're saying correctly, you know, I I I mean the the those are the I mean you're you're right. I mean it's not really um Protestant versus Catholic. And I mean I always say I'm a Protestant. I mean I'm agnostic. I don't I don't go to church.

[00:13:20]Do you know what I mean? But that's that's how it is in Northern Ireland.

[00:13:22]It's not a religious difference. It's it's it's very much based on political differ 100%. You know that you will get um people from a Catholic nationalist background that are pro union. you will get people from a Protestant background that are pro- United Ireland, you know.

[00:13:36]Um, but that constitutional difference still dominates debate here and division. Um, and the past kind of lingers over everything really. Um, I I I do think >> um, and we're seeing it with the Bobby Sand statue and other cultural events that are now coming up into the summer.

[00:13:57]Um, you know, there's, you know, I always wonder, you know, how long there's a younger generation, you know, I grew up, I was born 87, so I remember the tail end of the troubles, but not very much to be honest with you. And >> um, you know, the younger generation do they don't carry the same baggage, may I say. I mean, not in a very respectful way um, from the legacy of the past. And they do look at these things differently. And I do think as time goes on, you know, some of these debates will be looked at in a a very they'll think we're very strange for them debating it.

[00:14:27]I think, you know, but um yeah, but but I do agree with your broad point, you know, that the constitutional differences are are what drive Northern Ireland really. And and on that then would you would you say I think I think you made a very strong point if unionists want to um persuade people from a kind of nationalist cultural or religious background that the union might be all right uh cuz some of them maybe have that thought already in their head >> that that unionist the major parties ought to treat them a bit better. We had we had Gavin Robinson on here and I said, "Why why can't you be nicer to these people that you're trying to persuade to stick with the union?"

[00:15:10]Because you're certainly not being nice to people like Mihal Martin and various nationalists that you excoriate from time to time.

[00:15:19]>> Yeah. No, it it I mean I I get criticized a lot for just writing constantly about unionism. And I mean it's not nonfair criticism, let's be honest, but I do that because I don't you know I I do care about the union. Do you know what I mean? and and I don't support a united and I don't want one. Um, and that's why it it is a deep frustration that the unionist parties are so bad and adapting to a new era, a new a new time. Um, and they're not, you know, they cannot they have not been able to cross that Rubicon have been seen to have made strides towards reconciliation with nationalists. Now, unionists will obviously have criticisms of Republicans and nationalists as well. Um, but specifically on your point, you know, um, you know, I, you know, I do feel very, very frustrated because I think they're making massive mistakes and I do think that unionists get involved with cultural short-term cultural gains and fights and spats. But I've I've written about this as well, you know, that the state of the union is very poor economically, like it is dire. Um, at the end of the day, that's what's going to drive people in a border pole. And, um, you know, back when I was growing up, even when I was in university, you know, the economic case of union was very strong. And now it's not. Like, it's it's horrendous.

[00:16:40]The material reality of people in Northern Ireland is very, very poor. And I mean, I do actually think unionists when you get talking to them oneonone, they do actually care about those issues, but they don't vocalize it. And for particularly this young generation and you look at the polls they are they are not unionist you know now that might change but they're not unionist um they're thinking about their jobs their families you know the economic situation that they are facing you know I don't know what unionism is actually doing to address their concerns like what have they done to make life better for them I mean I would I would I would level the same criticism at the other side as well obviously because the shin shinfen and the DP have been in charge of this country for a long time But specifically on unionism, I do not think they're doing enough nowhere near enough >> because because the the the modest operand of the unionist parties over the years has been to defend the union. I mean it's they are defensive organizations and yet they should be marketing organizations. they should be selling the union because uh while you're right while the economic difference uh between uh being in the UK and being the Republic of Ireland uh that's certainly narrowed over the recent decades um there could have been there's a lot of good things in Northern Ireland and uh the Unionist parties should should definitely sell them better but I think I saw an article of yours some time ago where you more or less said liberal unionism is dead and of course I Doug Bey was the last time to have a a bit of a crack at it and uh and he got nowhere starting with his own party.

[00:18:18]>> Yeah, it is. And I mean it it it's they do need to sell the but I think the problem is that at the moment the case for the union is very much based on an argument which is anti-united Ireland.

[00:18:28]So >> when you're saying to people you have to actually sell the union and I I always get it it makes me very anxious whenever you hear union is saying the union sells itself. It doesn't. Not anymore. Um that type of negative argument. Is that going to work in any type of border pole? It's not just that unionists have to sell it.

[00:18:47]They have to make it better, you know.

[00:18:50]Um >> and I mean obviously look, you know, there are things that we have no control over like austerity and things like that that have that have Brexit that have absolutely affected the UK as a whole.

[00:18:59]But like, you know, my my son needs his tonsils out. The waiting list is 5 years on the NHS to get the tonsils out. You know, um you know, we're getting them into preschool. You know, the wraparound is £1,300 a month. You know, I mean, I don't know. Some of these are not just unique to Northern Ireland, but it it's it's I you know, you you know, you can't just they seem I think there seems to be a section of unionism which believes the target is Shenfen, and if we defeat Shenfen and we defeat nationalism on the cultural level, we will win this argument. But actually, that's not that's not how they're going to have to do it. Um, and then as you say, also trying to win people over and also sell the benefits of what's there. But I I I think the truth is also is that's actually quite hard for them now because of the state of public services, wages, the economy. And that's the thing, you know, I I I think um they're in a very difficult place. Whereas I think the other side because they're talking about a united Ireland, they can imagine a better society. Even though unionism will criticize that and say, "Well, that's not realistic." then that's not going to happen. It's the possibility of better to be honest with you. And if unionism can't sell that, I don't know what it's going to do.

[00:20:08]>> Are unionists right not to participate at all in any debate about what a future all Ireland setup might look like? Uh you know this well um Ireland's future and all these different initiatives. Um or is Wallace Thompson for example right and saying I'm I'm I'm a unionist. I believe in the union, but I'm ready to have a conversation with um or do you think having the conversation automatically uh loosens your grip on the union and um and uh reduces resolve to maintain the union.

[00:20:46]>> I I think they're right to avoid um debates held by groups like Ireland's future. So I mean they are they're not impartial bodies and I mean please I'm talking about unionist MLAs. I'm not talking about like me or somebody in the street. They can do what they like.

[00:21:04]>> But you know for a unionist MLA to go to Ireland's future put themselves on platform. What will happen is they will be pointed at and said look this is proof that United is inevitable. The unionists are here. You're basically doing your own side down. You know you you you risk being used against your own side essentially. You know, it on the other hand, if you get like um I mean, Gregory Campbell was down in Dublin and he was taking part in a debate about the Constitution of Northern Ireland. I mean, that's fine. You know, that was with the Dublin University Society, but I think you have to be careful um how you engage with these debates because that's what tends to happen. If if unionists engage and talk about the conversation, they are told, "Oh, look, you know, they're acknowledging that this is happening." Um Wallace Thompson could do whatever he likes. you know, he he he's free to talk to people and, you know, all part of him for what he's doing, but it it it I think unionist politicians have to be very careful because >> it's not in their interest to debate.

[00:22:05]But, as I say, normal debates, you know, hosted on the BBC or something. I mean, why not, you know, but um go in there and make your case, but they don't they don't need to be talking to groups like Ireland's Future. There's there's there's no reason for them to do that.

[00:22:17]>> Yeah. Um, my next question, uh, and I've I've said I find your article interesting and, uh, as usual, very well put together. Um, uh, but my question is for David, rather than ask you yourself because, uh, you're too modest. Um, David, what was the bravery in the article?

[00:22:41]>> Okay, that's actually your go. Were you on Twitter? Um uh I think the bravery comes from the fact that it is never easy for people particularly from the unionist side of the fence, you know, within the Irish side of the fence. I mean, yeah, sure. Have I ever gotten in my life? Uh have I ever gotten in my life, um oh well, you're not really an ashist. Yeah, but to be honest with you, it doesn't happen that often. But I thought for Sarah to be able to outline that in the way that she did I thought was particularly brave. I thought outlining I thought outlining how she got to to where she got to was very brave. I think because for many people and Sarah has seen this a lot.

[00:23:23]She's not red, white, and blue enough for for for unice and she's maybe not not as open because you know Sarah obviously has issues with his future and things like that. So she's not open enough on that.

[00:23:37]So she's kind of getting it from both sides. So that's why I think that article was brave in that sense.

[00:23:43]>> All right. Because I I don't follow social media all that much. So was there a pile on after it?

[00:23:49]>> To be honest with you, I mean, I I got some nice feedback from people across the board. I mean, I don't tend to go looking for comments. There's there are places of the internet where no doubt people were slagging me off, but I mean, that's part of the job. I'm used to it now. I I I I want to ask you this, sir, because obviously, you know, we had Sam McBride on a couple months ago talking about the foreign against a United Ireland book. Um, we had we we regularly debate debate this issue and I just always think about because you were trying to tackle the point of indifference, right? You know, Tim says it to me and Michael all the time, the South don't want you. The South don't want you. You know, we often hear that all the time and you actually tackle a bit of this from the opposite side of kind of, well, the Brits don't want you.

[00:24:34]I heard someone referencing the other week about Harold Wilson's infamous spongers comment to the UWC in 1974 in his TV address.

[00:24:44]I just want you you were kind of saying you don't care whether someone in England really wants you or not. It's about how you feel is what matters. I just wonder can you elaborate a wee bit more on that notion because you know I that that really did strike a chord with me about you know someone in Dublin I remember being on a panel last year with someone in the republic about this and they were saying about well you know the north is partitioned for a reason and when they outlined their rationale for partition you know I I retorted with the with the comeback that you know you'd be partitioned in Ireland seven different ways if you use your if you use your barometer Cork would be partitioned from from the rest of Ireland if you used your barometer. It doesn't doesn't make a difference. So just just you know I I that that really did chime with me that notion of not being wanted and and it not really not being relevant to the to your constitutional >> viewpoint. Yeah. No, it it's often the frustration, you know, the you're told, you know, that they don't care about you. You know, you you you think you are British and you are just, you know, hilarious to them and they don't care.

[00:25:46]Um don't get wrong, it's deeply frustrating, you know. Um, it's deeply frustrating that it's forgotten and I mean when the DUP did their confidence and supply agreement, you know, we all got to witness the rest of the UK discover the DUP. Um, you know, when Trump got elected, you know, people were were in England were furious because they said, you know, Trump's going to get rid of the right to choose in America. And activists in Northern Ireland, feminist activists were like, well, hang on a second. we've been we've been trying to get the same rights for years and years and you basically haven't helped us at all bar quite a few notable MPs. Um it's incredibly frustrating but it is it is similar because you know unionists are constantly told often by nationalists but sure they don't care whereas I read articles all the time from nationalists quite rightly annoyed that they are forgotten by the republic that they are seen as British by the republic but you still want a united Ireland you still want to be united with the south so is it so hard to believe that a unionist might also have the view of well I'm I'm happy to put up with that if it means that I get to live in the United Kingd kingdom. Um, and as I say in my article, for some people, um, English indifference is better than active dislike from the south. And I'm not saying that's exactly what would happen if Ireland was united, but I mean, there obviously is a concern and it's not unreasonable that if we were to become a united Ireland, the unionists would not be treated well. Um, so yeah, it's a point that I just I it's constantly thrown at unionists. But it's if I was to sit and every time someone says to you, Aquasher of the South, think you're British. I mean that must irritate you, you know, but you must also think, well, I still want to United Ireland, you know, so is it not it just I I just exactly right, you know, >> that's exactly right and that's why people should be more relaxed with the whole thing. The the um uh Good Friday Agreement provides for a pathway to United if people want it.

[00:27:45]>> Yeah.

[00:27:45]>> And and not only if people want it, if people down south then vote for it, too.

[00:27:50]>> Yeah. And if they don't, they don't that it doesn't happen.

[00:27:53]>> Yeah.

[00:27:54]>> And >> I love the way I love the way Michael's just so casual about it. Just, you know, oh well, >> Well, I tell you, the older I get, I think it's the best long-term arrangement for the island. But, uh, I'm not getting out of bed every morning thinking, "Oh god, is it United a day nearer? You know, can't live in this terrible Northern Ireland without constitutional change. I can live in Northern Ireland without constitution."

[00:28:19]So I I can understand how uh on the union side if there if if uh people in Britain on average regard the North just as a problem um rather than their brethren uh that's fair enough. Stella Cesy, MP, in a state of horror, what you saw was a DP, bolted the most liberal uh uh abortion um amendment on to uh an act or a bill that was passing through parliament. As as far as I understand it, that's now the law in Northern Ireland. The D brought us the most liberal arrangement, having fought for years to uh to deny all rights.

[00:28:58]I mean, I remember at the time, you know, people, they were so horrified by the DUP and you get all these comments like, oh, you know, why why should we have to pay for Northern Ireland? Why should we have to do this? Okay, but do do you know why it exists? Do you know what I mean? Which I made that point in my article as well. It's like we didn't follow you home one day like a stray hat. Do you know my surname is Kiteon, you know? Um, one of the planters of Olter were Kiteon. I don't think they were my section of Kitton, but they were definitely part of the clan. Um, you know, there's just there's a there's an aspect of of of history that they just don't know. I mean, and at the same time, look, I don't you can't expect people over there to know every single detail of Northern Ireland, but it's basic stuff.

[00:29:39]>> Yeah.

[00:29:39]>> Um, and it is very it is frustrating.

[00:29:41]It's frustrating. And as you say, you know that um the DP do this agreement and next thing you know, you know, I mean, I remember at one point they were going to the UP's Facebook page and like were putting like LGBT flags on their on their Facebook profile and all the gay marriage activists in Northern Ireland were absolutely furious because they were like, "We've been do we've been actually trying to put up a fight against this for years and years and suddenly you guys are apparently here to save us now." You know, it's but that's how it is. Do you know? I mean, I I recall reading a book about Carson and Redmond years ago, and I think at one point when Carson was doing the gun running, I think part of his rationale was basically that England wouldn't pay attention unless he got some guns. You know, it >> it's it's just it's always been there.

[00:30:21]Um it is, I suppose, just you know, unionists, I think most unionists know this. They do. You know, Arling Foster has talked about the complicated relationship over the years. It is just there, but >> just I just we need people to stop bringing that point up is my really my Yeah. And and and there always are those kind of contradictions um as well. Um but look sir, fascinating article. It's still available on the Irish News website. So please do go and read it.

[00:30:47]Sir, we really appreciate your time and for coming to join us on this episode.

[00:30:51]>> Not at all. Thanks for having me.

[00:30:53]>> And if you're interested to comment on anything you've heard on the podcast, you can send us a WhatsApp 0344-6507.

[00:31:01]Remember to use the word storm. You can also send us an email, hello@ stormources.com. Check us out on YouTube. Remember to click the subscribe button, leave us a review, only if it's a good one, wherever you get your podcast. So, make sure you do that. Now, Michael, the SDLP are down a counselor. I'm sorry to bring this up to you, but Paul Dockerty, one of the SDLP's most high-profile counselors in Belfast, the current deputy Lord Mayor of the city, one of the bright spots for the party, hoping to gain back an assembly seat next year for the party in the constituency of West Belfast, has left the party over the decision not to vote against a D motion to take down the statue of Bobby Sans, which was erected in West Belfast without planning permission. Michael, not great for the SDLP.

[00:31:50]>> Yes, definitely not great because uh I don't see who who benefits from this and the Bobby Sands thing. I mean, Northern Ireland is littered with illegal monuments and tributes and all the rest of them. And if you wanted to say one that might be legitimate from a community sport point of view, uh would be um the Bobby Sans um statue in his own community. Uh now as I understand it Paul Dy wasn't at the meeting only said afterwards had he been at the meeting he would have voted against uh the DUP motion because it was just mischief and because the community uh the planners had decided not to take any further action. So all was well but the party line apparently was to abstain. So I don't know what happened after that. Uh, obviously there's there's a bit of a difference, but I don't know why it is in the STLP that a bit of a difference leads to people resigning and getting out and being thanked.

[00:32:52]>> Well, I just wanted to ask this because you are a former spad for the party, right? You've been involved in these kind of strategy conversations. I mean, what do you make of the SDLP's overall strategy on this? So, >> they didn't have they actually walked out of the meeting. Um, what would you make of of that of that as a strategy?

[00:33:10]I I I'm not sure. I mean, where they differ from Shinfane on some of these things and these they're not strategic.

[00:33:17]They're little bumps on the road. Um uh and where they differ from Shinf Shen just get on with it. Here's what we're doing. I'm just doing it. And and whether it's noble and principled or whether it's skull duggery, they just do it and they don't apologize for it.

[00:33:32]Whereas the STLB beats itself up over the right thing to do. It would appear in this case they beat themselves up over Justin McNelte and his GA responsibilities. They beat themselves up over council councelor Tierney in Derry over something he said that he shouldn't have said. Um, even going way back, the one that really got me and has got me even ever since, um, hospital was downgraded and closed, uh, way back when Barbara de Brun was the, uh, health minister and somehow or other, they managed to shift the blame to the SDLP finance minister.

[00:34:13]But the crazy thing was I there's nothing wrong with doing that but the crazy thing is that a branch of the SDLP of the locality in OMA they blamed the SDLP finance minister rather rather than the Shinfian health minister and they split the organization from top to bottom in OMA and there were skin and hair flying and it's never been the same since uh the nearest the one thing person will give metaphor is finally the SDLB's position seems to be pretty united around Daniel McCrain but before that they were split down the middle all over the place counters fell out with each other and everything you know >> so did the >> that's going to be avoided in politics you can't do that >> but but did but but did the SCP get this wrong Michael in terms of in terms of abstaining on it should they not have voted against the D motion went >> I I was me voted with Shinfane Because because surely for me though and again I'm not privy to these meetings like you. But if I'm looking at it and I just from a purely politics point of view I'm looking at this going this is going to be problematic for Paul Dockerty if we do this. If we if we don't vote against this motion that's Paul Doerty sunk with the and I think that seems to be the calculation of Paul Dockerty himself.

[00:35:32]It's just the SCP brand is useless to him now in West Belfast.

[00:35:35]Well, I don't know, but um it I if it be me, I'm an SLP supporter.

[00:35:42]>> Um I'm happy to be and all of that, but I would have voted the way Paul Dy intended to vote. I would have said this is DUP mischief. There are thousands of unlawful monuments all over Northern Ireland. The planners, we're not going to go and take them all down. the planners have decided that it's that it's not appropriate to take any further action. So, they should have voted it down the DUP. That's my opinion. I respect that they're trying to be more principled than that. They're trying to say, you know, this was put up without uh any authority. But the real politic of it, the community wanted it. The community like Paul Dardy was in the right place as an SLP representative in my view. But the crazy bit beyond that is even if they had that split over it, they shouldn't have fallen out irrevocably cuz I think while you say the STLP brand might be less useful to Paul Dardy going forward, I don't think he gets elected as an independent MLA, I think no chance. He had a chance to be elected as an STLP MLA. People should stop standing on Germany.

[00:36:53]>> Yeah. And look, I think the interesting and look Yeah. Look, we can't overstate Paul Dockert's chances. He had a decent chance. I think it was fair to say that on the new boundaries and things like that, but he wasn't he wasn't assert. He wasn't home and hosted. But Michael, I just wonder for you, and again, appreciate you don't speak for the SDLP, but I remember you telling me you joined the SDLP before I was even born. I mean, the SDLP now has no has no elected representatives in the constituency of West Belfast. And I think that whenever we think about the SDLP, because Hume dominates so much, we think of Derry.

[00:37:23]that the other finding constituency of West of of the SDLP was West Belfast with Jerry Fit. You know, that was the strength of the SDLP. Foil and West Belfast came together to create a new nationalist vehicle and there's no there's no there's no there's no nobody left in West Belfast. That's incredible.

[00:37:40]>> Well, that's as as you have reminded me a long long time ago. I mean, the Shinfam weren't in the game in Jerry Fitz's time and for a long time afterwards and then they peaked. I mean the the the two lines crossed with the the famous bi-election of Joe Hendren.

[00:37:55]Jerry Adams had won the seat from the STLP and the STLP won it back and then after that it was oneway traffic. You got to say since then um I think the the whole hunger strike thing uh radicalized the entire constituency to some extent uh and Shenzhim just became overly dominant. Alexatwood clung on for two or three elections, but the Tim Atwood had clung on in the council, but the vote was going nowhere and people the people who were minded to not vote for Shinfane uh found something attractive in Jerry Carroll and people for profit. Uh there was a chance I think uh for Paul Dary to win this back for the STLP, but no chance now. And >> no chance trying to build up a new candidate now without as you say without a counselor there. No chance.

[00:38:52]>> No chance at all. And it's it's uh it it's in bad shape. Of course. I mean, the the the reaction to it was quite fiferous. I mean, it was it was quite a negative reaction to to Paul Doerty in the in the two days before he left the SDLP. And he did he did get quite a lot of abuse online. Clar Hannah um and other SDLP representatives have had quite a lot of abuse online. and had quite a lot of um quite a lot of stick as well which I mean some some incredibly personal language which I mean you don't have to agree with >> there are lots of these politically motivated pylons by >> certain group and it'll be it'll be it'll be interesting to see where that goes but that's one gain from the SDLP for next year off the off the books and uh and and it just hurts them at Belfast they're now down to four counselors in Belfast and two three three of those four are based in South Belfast So just it's not it's not looking great for them in the city. So anyway, well look well well look Michael thank you for that.

[00:39:50]Let's move on now to our next topic.

[00:39:52]Obviously with the Shinfian Ardesh uh was in town last weekend. The party met in the ICC in Belfast. This was their first Aresh in the north since 2019.

[00:40:02]Um this of course we're now getting into sight of the election now as we're get as we are a year out from the next assembly and local government elections.

[00:40:10]So, the party is now firmly on an election footing. Michelle O'Neal spoke to a packed room on the Friday night addressing delegates about her frustrations within the executive, blaming the DUP for not being able to get things done. She claimed that that her uh colleagues in government were trying to quote unquote turn the clock back and she committed the party to uh to support reform of the institutions in the coming weeks and years. So, that's a bit of a departure for Shinfane in terms of backing reform. Michael, were you keenly watching the um the Shinfardesh last weekend and uh and paying attention to the to the first minister and Mary Louu McDonald as they were all in town?

[00:40:52]>> Well, I would always pay attention to them, but um uh you know, we've been talking about the SDLPS wos um and we should say in relation to that, it's not all bad. Clara Hannah is now the most popular politician in Northern Ireland.

[00:41:07]uh and she's been building that position. Uh so it's not all bad, but uh Shinfen are facing serious difficulties at the moment. Now they're still the biggest party. The STLP is not eating into their vote. Um but they're down a bit in the polls. They've got the challenge down south of uh bi-elections coming up and they're expected to win the one in Dublin Central, Mary Lou's constituency. There are questions about Mary Lou's leadership although Shinfane say there's no uh nothing to it. uh they're whether they like it or not and Michelle O'Neal can give out the DP but they are associated and they own uh part of the that's frankly dismal performance of the executive and they have other populists and they didn't have this before but they now have other populists particularly down south that uh can go to the populist side of Shinfane Shinfane were in the comfortable position of being the big party that could wall up the government and all the establishment parties for all their failures over decades etc. Now Shinf are there and there's a strong independent um group strong people before prophet and other leftwing uh uh people and they got caught they got caught on the immigration issue where they tried to uh be tough on immigration and be gentle with immigrants and tough on the anti-immigrants and they are in danger of doing more of that again. So they came into this Ardesh with plenty of problems on the plate. So what's the solution that Michelle offered? Well, she said um I I think that incidentally this is why the Ardesh was in the north uh because it would attract a bit less attention south of the border. U but they presented themselves as ever as the socioeconomic champion of the less welloff the people most concerned about the cost of living crisis. And they promised, and let's face this, this is totally unrealistic, a border pole by 2030. How long will it be before they move it back from that? There will not be a border pole before 2030. Uh, and then there have to stand now on the records of four Shinfen ministers around our executive table. And it's pretty hard even though I have no doubt they've all been working very hard, it's very hard to point to many um concrete achievements. and her other offers and you know they're going to put it up to the DUP.

[00:43:43]>> Yeah. I I think I think that is the issue that the that that was overlay in the Ardesh from the northern side was again about acknowledging the fact that there wasn't there a lot of projects there isn't there isn't a lot to write home about for Shinfane. So so there was that there have been a lot of critical opeds I mean for example Chris Donley wrote a piece I'm going to sound like we're just plugging the Irish news and here but he was writing in the Irish news over the weekend about Shinf need to do a radical rethink of their strategy. Uh Bran Feny again was writing in the Irish news about Chinfi need to think about their participation in the assembly.

[00:44:15]>> Sorry, I'm I'm picking up that um there are growing elements within the Republican movement are wondering is it worth it at all? And uh and I could see them and I wouldn't have said this two weeks ago. I I can see them if they could get the right circumstances where their exit could be neatly blamed on the DUP.

[00:44:36]uh if they could provoke the DUP into doing something that would really annoy nationalists and go out on that basis, I think that's definitely one of the strategic options now under active consideration in Shinf and I know this just from some contact uh with Republicans. So I I I think uh that's definitely one but but they don't have many solutions and even the announcements. That was a great announcement um uh about the uh all the smart meters that are going to be put in everybody's house. 500 million program and it's going to reduce your electricity costs. Well, I have news for you. Where do you think the 500 million comes from? And who do you think pays it? So, if NIE stroke ESB, and by the way, ESB have already installed 2 million south of the border at no cost to customers. But if NI have to do it, NI will want to be paid for it and that will come out of customers bills. So, and that's about 500 quid per household in Northern Ireland. So, you get nothing for nothing. It's a good announcement.

[00:45:39]It's a the right direction of travel, but it's not going to cut your electricity bill anytime soon.

[00:45:45]>> Yeah. I I just wonder about how much this Michael though is a bit wee bit kind of a media obsession because I was just talking to when I was talking to some journals at the Ardesh uh over the weekend. You know how much this is going to come back. I mean this time next year we're not going to be voting on whether I don't know we're not going to be voting on whether you know water uh water wastewater infrastructure sorted. We're not going to be voting on these different issues. We're going to be voting on whether Michelle O'Neal should be kept as first minister. That's essentially what we're going to be voting on. And that shinfane number will likely go up in the election and they'll probably retain quite a number of their seats. I mean that's essentially what is going to happen isn't it?

[00:46:23]>> Well if if people continue to vote who who's going to be first minister then yeah the shenan will uh improve back towards their peak of 30 from 24% and the dub will rise well into the 20s as well from their 18% or whatever it is now. um that will happen if people just keep voting the same way, especially if they're served up a big division, a big divisive issue just before the election.

[00:46:47]>> So, do we think the executive then, cuz we, you and me were pretty confident, Tim wasn't. So, do you still think the executive makes it to the end of March 2027 by the time the assembly's dissolved?

[00:47:00]>> I I I'm still saying a marginal yes. I would have said completely yes. No one wants no one in their right mind wants to bring it down even if it's not doing that well. But I I've now changed my mind that that is one of the strategic options that Shinfane is considering. It doesn't mean they'll do it but they're as they game their way to the election.

[00:47:22]That's an option.

[00:47:24]>> Okay.

[00:47:25]>> And there are people senior in the organization who are >> muttering that under their breath.

[00:47:31]>> Yeah. Well, we will we will wait and see. Although three collapses within a decade really doesn't speak well. I mean I suppose you really do have to start questioning if it comes down again whether it's worth even bothering trying to resurrect it at all. Uh really so that'll be that'll be an episode but we'll we'll be here. We will do an emergency episode podcast if that does happen. So uh so so we'll be about to do that. Michael, thank you very much for going around the houses with me. We will be back all three of us next week. We promise. So if you want to get in touch with us before then drop us uh a WhatsApp 0344-6507.

[00:48:07]Also drop remember to use the word storm. Also drop us an email hello@ stormansources.com. from Michael, myself.