Zelenskyy knows this offends Poles, he just doesn’t care | News in Depth

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[00:00:00]Hello and welcome to News in Depth here on TVP World. I'm Maria Kato.

[00:00:05]One of the main points of unresolved contention between Poland and Ukraine is the Valinia massacre. The massacre of 100,000 Poles conducted by the Ukrainian insurgent army in the summer of 1943.

[00:00:17]Many of them were women and children.

[00:00:19]Some progress has been made, but the issue has sparked again. This week, Ukrainian President Voldemir Zilinski awarded an elite Ukraine military unit the honorary title of the heroes of the UPA which has led to outrage in Poland across the political spectrum. Polish President Carl Navroski has said he will strip his Ukraine counterpart Zilinski of the Order of the White Eagle, Poland's highest state award. To discuss the details of these developments, I'm joined by Stuart Dael, TVP World's political editor. Welcome.

[00:00:50]>> Hello.

[00:00:52]So, Zalinsky is fully aware of these trigger points for Poland, and he's also aware of the support that Poland has provided for Ukraine ever since the start of Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

[00:01:04]Why would he name one of Ukraine's military units after the Ukrainian insurgent army when the associations are so negative and so sensitive?

[00:01:14]>> Well, you're right about that how sensitive it is. Um, but I think that Vladimir Zalinski made this move as part of a wider move to show a continuity uh between Ukrainian uh independence movement and fighters uh against uh Russian imperialism from Second World War, even from before the Second World War, and try and link them with the fighters of of today. And he's doing that out of a position of weakness.

[00:01:48]because of the recent corruption allegations uh or the arrests that have been made. Uh those corruption allegations, the the the affair has resurfaced again recently. Um about how he lost his uh chief of st his presidential chief of staff um about the fatigue of the war, about the pressure to make concessions, uh about um uh competition uh in a possible future presidential election. all of these things probably Zalinski is at his weakest moment uh since the start of uh the war and this move uh to uh create this national cannon of Ukrainian heroes and to link them with uh the soldiers the army today um is his way of entering that territory and it gives him a kind of political cover um that when uh if he has make concessions in a future peace deal or he has to fight another election, then uh he has that uh insulation from the the nationalist uh security culture because he's a centrist politician, but he's moving moving more to the right with this.

[00:03:01]>> So, he's you say, at the weakest point uh of his presidency. Uh and yet at the same time, there have been so many scandals uh the weakest point uh of his time in power. uh he's aware of how sensitive this topic is and are you suggesting that this is a power move?

[00:03:19]>> Well, it's a protective move. Yes. Um if you're asking about how it plays out uh in Poland um then of course he'll be aware of that. Um at the beginning of the war he claimed that he didn't really understand these foreign issues um and uh and the effect that uh it has in still in Poland but he's now surely uh aware aware of that. President Navrosky even gifted him a book uh when he was still president of the um Institute of National uh Remembrance. Um so they're all they're all very aware. The thing is it doesn't really matter. The cost is not that much. Uh it's not it's not the cost isn't high enough for it to outweigh the benefits that he's getting uh domestically. Yeah. Uh and um there are reasons for that. The the the relationship between Poland and Ukraine today isn't the same as it was at the beginning of the war. Um Ukraine simply doesn't rely on Poland the same as it did in 2022. Poland uh is still a still a donor. that still provides money but on a much lower scale certainly in terms of military equipment. I mean at the beginning of the war it gave over 300 tanks, 500 armored vehicles, all sorts of other things. Um and also I think importantly it doesn't provide Ukraine at the moment with the same kind of diplomatic support that it needs because it's getting that already from Europe.

[00:04:44]It's it's well integrated now with the core of Europe of France, Germany, the European Union. The 90 billion loan is an example of that. Um, Europe is going to probably take over the negotiating role uh from America and that's going to be through the E3 Britain, France and Germany, but not Poland. So, it just simply doesn't need Poland in the same way that it did a few years ago.

[00:05:05]>> Are you suggesting that Ukraine doesn't need Poland at all?

[00:05:09]>> No. AB absolutely not. this the I think the emotional stage of the relationship that we saw in 2022 the uh over 90% support for supporting Ukraine and uh all the positive things that we saw that's uh that's way in in the past. Then there was the grain crisis a few years ago when Polish market was flooded with cheap grain that caused a lot of anger here especially amongst farmers a very vocal and wellorganized lobbying group um and since then the relationship has become uh necessary strategic is simply strategic and I think that's Zalinski has factored that into these moves that he's making because he knows that Polish Polish uh grand strategy we can call it that depends on Ukraine being a a functioning, prospering, sovereign, independent state uh integrating into Europe uh politically and militarily and economically and all that is happening and certainly Poland isn't going to risk any of that uh over over a historical grievance issue important and sensitive as it is. Okay, now let's move on to some reactions uh here in Poland that were immediate uh and across the entire political spectrum.

[00:06:31]>> President, unfortunately, President Zalinski has proven that Ukraine is not ready to be part of the European family in terms of grappling with its own history, specifically its glorification of thugs and murderers from the Ukrainian insurgent army.

[00:06:46]President Zilinski's decision offends our historical sensibilities and in my view once again raises the issue of these historical differences to an alarming level.

[00:06:55]The news that President Navroski is responding to this with a proposal to revoke President Zalinski's order of White Eagle is an escalatory move. I would very much like the presidents of both these countries to act wisely to ensure that our relations are as strong as possible. For Poland and Ukraine, our alliance and cooperation in the face of the Russian threat are invaluable.

[00:07:16]>> By honoring the Ukrainian insurgent army thugs, the president of Ukraine has insulted me and all our murdered compatriots. In light of this, I have publicly removed the Ukrainian flag pin from my chest. I will continue to help the nation in its fight against the Soviets. I refuse to support President Zalinski.

[00:07:35]So these are really quite strong words and yet you say that essentially for Zilinski uh you know the uh the price he has to pay essentially here in Poland for this move the symbolic and yet quite significant move in Ukraine that's of much greater importance to him and yet you know Poland is quite an important ally to Ukraine. Uh >> what do you think of the statements that have been made? They're not insignificant.

[00:08:03]Uh no and I I should imagine that uh on um Vancouver Street in Kiev they would be uh expecting this kind kind of uh reaction. Um I think what's surprising what's what's significant interesting is that the reaction to come from across the political spectrum we saw variance uh uh we didn't see the quote from Leh Miller um uh who was for former prime minister from the uh ex-communists >> very opinionated man.

[00:08:32]>> Yeah. Yeah. particularly on Ukraine issues. Um, and his his comment uh was very colorful that it's the equivalent of naming this Ukrainian unit after the uh Ukrainian insurgent army is the equivalent of in another country of naming a unit uh after Einat's group and uh and that kind of reflects uh how strongly um polls across the the political spectrum feel about this. But >> there we discussed uh the political situation for Zilinski. There's also a polit the political aspect to to this issue uh here. This isn't just about history. I think uh Carol's reaction was expected. Um I think from him uh it was uh an authentic reaction because historical memory and particularly particularly grievance uh from Second World War period uh is part of his political identity.

[00:09:24]>> But it also applies to all of Europe. I think he makes a relevant point there uh referring to uh you know Ukraine's readiness to enter Europe. Do you think that uh that this move will actually backfire for Ukraine in terms of its uh European Union ambitions? Because the Second World War applies to all of Europe essentially in many ways >> will it backfire? Will it have an effect on Ukraine's accession to the into the European Union? I think if Ukraine manages to open and close 33 chapters and go through all the accession process with all the clusters and gets to a final uh a final vote in the European Council, this this issue today will be several years back in the in the in the distant past. And also uh it's in Europe's strategic interest for Ukraine to do well in this war and to to join its uh join the European Union, join it structures. Uh it's even more pressing issue I'd say for Poland and Poland and the European Union shouldn't let this historical issue get in the way of what is um a strategic priority. But do you not agree that essentially the Valinia massacre does refer to an important part of history that uh refers to a massacre uh that was committed by uh the Ukrainian insurgent army that was also involved in the murder well in committing the Holocaust >> as well. Yeah. Um >> and it's important to be able to recognize that and if uh the president of Ukraine is unable to recognize that as fact then there is quite a significant problem.

[00:11:02]>> Yeah, the the the two positions are simply uh incompatible. I don't know how they're going to resolve it. I hope hopefully time will uh play some role. I think from the Ukrainian side that's that's what they want. They want to they want to minimize their exposure to this issue and uh use time to uh to decrease the the impact of it. But what we see in Poland is they're not giving up. This is still an open wound and it's uh it's not going away. And uh I think the the the uh political legal level uh the parliamentary level is important in this because back in 2016 the Polish uh parliament passed a motion de declaring or recognizing vor massacre as genocide.

[00:11:43]>> Yes. Um and that followed 2015 the the Ukrainian side um organizing their uh their own legislature to um rec recognize the uh people involved as heroes. So that's >> two very differing viewpoints.

[00:12:02]>> Exactly. So, and now we have a situation where uh for example, if Vladimir Zalinski had unveiled a plaque um to some fighters or to a leader um that would still be uh reference to a historical event and could somehow be put back uh in that um kind of historical box. But now, Zalinski is uh naming a unit in an army that Poland is actively uh supporting. Um so the the uh the outrage is is understandable.

[00:12:34]>> Now I just wanted to move on to uh the Israeli response to that uh because believe it or not this has reached uh Israel and they also are uh very critical of this. Uh there was a tweet from the Israeli uh foreign ministry today. We'll bring that up in just a moment.

[00:12:52]We regret the decision to hold an official state rebarial ceremony for ON leader Andre Mayik who collaborated with the Nazis. There is no place for ignoring historical truth and the memory of the victims murdered by the Nazis and their collaborators.

[00:13:08]>> And just a correction on my part, that tweet was actually from a couple of days ago. So apologies, but nonetheless, it refers to the developments of this week.

[00:13:16]Uh so if uh Israel is responding to this as well uh >> do you not think that that actually gives more weight to the development and to also uh Voldemir Zilinsk's decision?

[00:13:29]Uh yeah, the the issue is not going to go away over one uh naming naming of a unit because what the Israelis were referring to was the rebarial of Andere Mielnik who was brought back from uh Luxembourg a while ago and and and buried in the um in the uh the pantheon that they have now in the national memorial ceme cemetery in Kev. And this is part of this process that I was talking about at the beginning of the show um that Zalinski and the national security um culture establishment want to can have this continuity of uh anti-soverviet fighters from the second world war and link them to the soldiers today. Um and this pantheon um is a place where the um some of the perpetrators of Vein massacre are going to lie alongside um soldiers who are dying in in this war. Um, and it's not just Andre Mjolnik uh didn't take part directly in th those events uh because he was elsewhere during the Second World War, but they're going to be uh other people who were actual commanders in the insurgent army who were committing some of these acts who they intend to uh lay in this uh pantheon. So an even even greater outrage uh awaits uh Poland in this sense.

[00:14:46]There was some progress when it came to uh the excumation of the massacre sites when it came to the Valencia massacre and that gave the suggestion that uh Ukraine and Poland were actually moving towards resolving this chapter. Perhaps not resolving it but leading to some closure. The events of this week show some kind of regression I would say and almost perhaps are we seeing the true face of Ukraine Polish relations that actually we aren't moving forward perhaps the relations aren't as friendly as we thought they were and uh like you said you know that the emotional aspect of the relationship has passed and now it's purely strategic if not practical um we have a soundbite from Poland's foreign minister Adams Shikorski uh where he actually expresses disappointment.

[00:15:40]>> As for the state owners, this is the president's prerogative, so you can judge that decision for yourselves. I'm disappointed that President Zilinski has failed to take our historical sensitivities into account. But I think Polish Prime Minister Donatus has summed it up accurately, saying that if we argue about the past, someone else will dictate our future. Yes, National Memory Institutes should be discussing those issues with one another, but the only one to gain from a Polish Ukrainian dispute over the past is Putin.

[00:16:11]>> Exactly. Is Is Russia going to benefit from this dispute?

[00:16:14]>> Yeah, sure. Sure they will. And I think the foreign minister was right that Russia through its propaganda will be able to communicate to polls that look these uh your your allies are celebrating the people who murdered your your people. you'll be able to tell the Ukrainians, look, the Poles are are making uh a meddling in your your affairs are making trouble when you're when you're uh at war and uh Ukraine is in a war of survival at the moment. And it will be able to communicate to to Western Europe uh the the narrative of Nazism in in in Ukraine because some of these uh people that they're celebrating were were connected were collaborating with uh Nazis. Um and also I think that the um uh the exhumation issue also highlights the difficulties that the two sides are are having. And I think that the the Ukrainian side when it comes to e ex excumations um there was a little bit of progress but it's really Ukraine uh not turning on the taps fully, just allowing a drip because there are many many sites the Ukraine want the polls want to exume uh and the Ukraine are allowing them just in one or two. Um, and of course, Ukraine don't want to have this this slow drip of terrible dark news coming from these these uh ex excumation sites because the polls will be bringing up bodies of children and women and the forensics teams will be able to show clearly how they were murdered in the most most gruesome way.

[00:17:36]So, I think the Ukrainians want to suppress uh that um and use use time to um to try to get over this uh issue, but I don't think it's going to go away. So, what do you think that how long do you think it will take to resolve this issue? And do you think that Poland and Ukraine will actually be able to get over this crisis?

[00:17:55]>> Uh, I don't know how long it will take.

[00:17:57]Uh, because um it's been over 80 years now. And even even today, I think the the mayor of Leiv uh was uh casting doubt on even if those events uh happened uh saying, "Oh, it was a long time ago. We're not sure even even what happened. The Soviets dressed up some soldiers in different uniforms." So it shows you the level of uh of um the the the type of thinking that has to be overcome to get some kind of reconciliation or closure on this. I hope it comes before um Ukraine uh are really in a position to join the European Union.

[00:18:30]>> But do you think that perhaps this situation actually reflects the true nature of Polish Ukraine relations? It goes back certainly to how they were uh before. Um and the uh uh the emotional period that we talk about in 2022 to 2023 really may may just be a blip uh un unfortunately and and the whole of Polish society is moving a little bit further to the right with the fatigue in terms of uh relations with Ukraine with the fatigue uh the resentment over payments for various types of types of welfare. Um, yeah, it's it's hard to see uh positive outcome.

[00:19:07]>> Okay, Stuart Dao, political editor at TVP World. Thank you for joining us.

[00:19:11]>> Thank you.

[00:19:12]>> That's all for news in depth today.

[00:19:14]Thank you so much for joining us and make sure that you keep yourselves updated with TVP World. Goodbye.