LDS chaplain: God's plan does NOT need Satan

[00:00:00]I think a lot of people when they hear you say Satan is really not necessary for the plan of salvation, they're going to be thinking, well, the scriptures teach there has to be opposition in all things. Do the scriptures really require that interpretation? I don't think it requires that interpretation at all. Grant Arnold is a chaplain in the United States Air Force and the author of the BYU religious educator article, War, a good warfare understanding agency in the plan of salvation. If you assume he's necessary, then God's plan of salvation is no longer just. Satan is technically doing good. You've just given Satan an eternal at will checkmate against God's plan.

[00:00:51]maybe just lay some groundwork for us and maybe talk about why this is an important topic for Latter-day Saints.

[00:00:57]>> Well, before I get into why it's important, I I hope it's not too out of the way if I talk about why I would have gotten into this in the first place.

[00:01:05]>> Yes, please.

[00:01:07]>> So, when I was growing up in the church, um I would hear off-handed remarks in Sunday school. You know, sometimes you'd hear people say, "Well, if especially if we were talking about the fall of Adam and Eve, well, that's why we need Satan." And I don't know if those were the exact words. And maybe that's not even something anyone ever said, but at the very least, I would walk away from Sunday schools and elders quorum lessons and that impression was put into my mind and I'm like, "Need?"

[00:01:35]>> Yeah.

[00:01:36]>> An eternal temptor? That just sounds terrible to a plan of salvation. So, why is it important? Why should Latter- Day Saints care about this is because when you kind of dig deep down and realize that he's not necessary? Um, it changes your whole perspective on agency, how important it is, but also how important Christ is. It elevates Heavenly Father.

[00:02:03]It elevates Christ. And then you don't even think about Satan, right? He's just a backhand uh annoyer. footnote.

[00:02:12]>> A footnote at best.

[00:02:14]>> I think a lot of people when they hear you say Satan is really not necessary for the plan of salvation, they're going to be thinking, well, the scriptures teach that there has to be opposition in all things.

[00:02:26]>> Yes.

[00:02:26]>> And traditionally, Satan fills that role, right? Satan is that opposition.

[00:02:32]>> So my question is, do the scriptures really require that interpretation? I don't think it requires that interpretation at all. I think opposition is a phenomenon that happens automatically. It's not like, oh, because God's trying to save me, uh, I need someone to try to damn me, right?

[00:02:58]Mh.

[00:02:58]>> It's hey, you have this opportunity to accept Jesus Christ and to be saved because of him or you can choose damnation. And in fact, we have plenty of scriptures that are right along that same path. You have the ability to choose uh eternal life or eternal punishment. It's completely up to you.

[00:03:20]But you don't need somebody tempting you down that path. And so that yes, there's opposition in all things, but it's automatic. As soon as you say, "Hey, here's a law, right? I mean, let's look premortally."

[00:03:35]>> Mhm.

[00:03:35]>> God is not, you know, um he's he's explaining the plan of salvation as I I would like to look at it. Not like, hey, I don't know what to do. Like that's not that's not Heavenly Father. It's like, hey, this is the plan of salvation >> and I know what to do and here's what we need is a savior. Whom shall I send? We all knew the answer. It's Christ.

[00:03:57]Everybody's looking at him, I'm sure.

[00:04:00]And why did God ask the question?

[00:04:03]Because even Christ has his agency. And of course, he always chooses he heavenly father's will. He always chose the father's will. So he said, "Here I am.

[00:04:12]Send me." Right? At that moment in time, agency is still functioning. And Satan, he doesn't have to say, "Hey, I've got a better idea." If we just freeze time in that moment, he doesn't have to rebel, right? And if he didn't, everybody could choose Christ and be saved. I I I love that you bring up premortality because like I think a question a lot of Latter- Day Saints have had is okay, if you need Satan to be tempting you in order for there to be opposition, in order for agency to truly exist, then how did Satan or Lucifer freely make a decision without having a Satan to tempt him to do that. Right.

[00:04:59]>> Right. And this solves it.

[00:05:01]>> Essentially just saying you don't need a Satan in order to make a choice. You have law.

[00:05:07]>> You have law. Where there's law, there is an opportunity to break it or to move against it.

[00:05:13]>> Yes. Always.

[00:05:14]>> And another thing you said in your article that I really liked, um, you explained, you know, there's law, therefore there's a choice. But you said that opposition exists naturally, uh, in all sorts of ways. hunger, you know, that creates a desire within you that that you have to grapple with. Did Satan cause the hurricane that just destroyed a coastal town?

[00:05:38]>> Probably not. But does that create opposition?

[00:05:43]Absolutely.

[00:05:44]>> Yes.

[00:05:44]>> It's like opposition is just um one of the characteristics of a fallen world that doesn't necessarily require a spirit tempting you along the way.

[00:05:57]>> Yes. When you have a fallen world, the fallen world comes with conditions.

[00:06:03][snorts] Those conditions include natural laws, the ones you already just mentioned. God gives us spiritual laws which we are free to accept or to reject. And then we also have our fallen bodies that come with sicknesses, illnesses, pains, cancers. All of those things are available. And then we also have the natural man. And so the natural man as as it talks in the Book of Mormon is constantly there as well. Our bodies come with appetites, desires, passions, and all of these things we never felt before as a premortal spirit. A spirit doesn't want to I I don't know what I'm I guess [snorts] I can't necessarily appine fully on spirit food, right? I mean, that's well beyond the scope of the paper, but I assume there's not a whole lot of eating, right? And if we were, it was just a lot of bing soo. I think that is what spirits eat. If you know what bing soo is anyway, >> right? So, but now that we're here and we have a physical body and our spirit is combined with this physicalness, we're now experiencing new desires, new appetites, new passions, and they go beyond what our heavenly father is asking us to do. They go beyond what God is commanding us to do. And so we face naturally the natural man is an enemy to God and has been ever since the foundation of the world.

[00:07:31]>> Sounds familiar.

[00:07:32]>> Yeah. [laughter] Now, did Satan do that? Absolutely not.

[00:07:37]The natural man, the body, naturally wants those things. And then as you said, of course, you've got the physical laws of the earth, of a fallen earth, tsunamis, tidal waves, uh you've got illnesses that are going to creep into the world. All of that is the opposition that we are facing daily here in this earth. And so when you look at DNC 2939, for it must needs be that Satan should tempt the children of men, right? All of a sudden, it's not so much that I'm having Satan tempt because I need him to tempt, but it's necessary that he tempt because this is the conditions of the fallen world that we're in. It's necessary that you be in a place where you're subject to chaos, where you're subject to entropy. And so now you get to choose. What do you really want? Do you want chaos? because there's plenty of it here in this world.

[00:08:38]Or do you want to choose the path of peace? Do you want to choose Christ?

[00:08:43]Let's talk about Satan's role in the Garden of Eden. Because as we've been talking about this, and we've been talking about a fallen world, I think a lot of Latter-day Saints are under the impression, well, that fallen world only exists because of Satan.

[00:09:01]And I'm wondering now, Satan was not an essential preerequisite for there to be a fallen world. The fallenness of the world doesn't come from Satan. It comes from mortals deviating from God's law.

[00:09:17]Is that correct?

[00:09:19]>> I mean, I would agree with that.

[00:09:20]>> Okay. I think sometimes we misattribute where the fallenness is coming from. If we wanted to like imagine everybody agreed to follow Christ today overnight we could bring about a different level of this world. I think we have the example of the the city of Enoch. Obviously they didn't have to stay here.

[00:09:46]>> Yeah.

[00:09:46]>> You don't have to stay in chaos. It's like rule number one. Stop killing each other. I'll wait. [laughter] We're still It's still happening. Yes.

[00:09:56]>> And it doesn't need to happen. We don't need to hurt each other. We don't need to steal. We don't need to kill, right?

[00:10:02]We can follow the Ten Commandments.

[00:10:04]Everybody could choose to do that if we really wanted to. I like this uh standup bit that was talking about Adam and Eve and then like there then Cain and Abel.

[00:10:12]And it's like there are four people on this earth. Four. And you're already killing off a 25% of humanity. just like for five minutes could you not >> just just don't hurt people please.

[00:10:28]>> Yeah. So going back to the fall was necessary.

[00:10:33]Living in a fallen world meaning where it's imperfect.

[00:10:37]>> Yeah.

[00:10:38]>> Is necessary. Living in a state of opposition. I mean think about it. Our entire existence before and our entire existence after we will be cancer-free.

[00:10:52]You'll never experience cancer or sickness or the flu ever again in your life or your existence. It's only here.

[00:11:02]And there there is something about pain and opposition that we learn from and grow from and we can't in any other way.

[00:11:10]There is no other way.

[00:11:13]So, and maybe this is speculation territory a little bit because we obviously maybe don't know what would have happened, but Satan was obviously involved in the fall in some way. Would there have been a fall without Satan?

[00:11:29]Absolutely.

[00:11:31]And I think absolutely because it's part of God's plan.

[00:11:36]We have apostles and prophets that appine on what we learned premortally, right? And I agree with them that the plan of salvation that a savior was taught to us. Well, you don't learn that there's a savior without learning why you need a savior. And that's because of the fall. Because we knew we would all come down, make mistakes, need to repent, and someone has to pay the price for that. And that's Jesus Christ, of course. And so we all knew about the fall. Satan knew about the fall.

[00:12:11]>> It was going to happen with or without him.

[00:12:13]>> With or without him. It was going to happen. And so the question becomes, well, well then how, right? How how does it fall? And that is pure speculation.

[00:12:22]At the end of the day, I don't know the answer. I have my guesses. Just like premortally as Satan tried to usurp Christ's role, I think it's not too much of a leap to say that he's trying to usurp Christ's role in the garden. If Christ tries Adam and Eve through that experience and helps them understand this, this is necessary or they just figure it out on their own.

[00:12:49]One of the two. But if Christ helps them understand that, then here he is at every step of the plan of salvation, at the forefront of it, premortally, he's saying, "I I will go down and I will accept this role as savior." And at the fall, he's there. Let me help you understand that this is necessary. And then he helps them have the fall, which he knows he will later atone for. I mean, that's just like >> Well, and you think about it and um you know, in what form did did Satan visit Adam and Eve?

[00:13:25]>> A serpent.

[00:13:26]>> A serpent.

[00:13:27]>> Yes.

[00:13:28]>> And what is one of the symbols of Jesus Christ?

[00:13:31]>> A serpent.

[00:13:32]>> A serpent. So maybe he was trying to pose as as uh somebody he wasn't. That's fascinating. So, we've talked about kind of uh Satan's role in premortality and his role in uh the Garden of Eden and the story of Adam and Eve. What is his role in our lives today?

[00:13:52]>> Hopefully none. [laughter] >> Hopefully none.

[00:13:54]>> I mean, but like how much power does he he have? Cuz like oftentimes we're like, is this from the spirit or is this just from me? And then like on the on the flip side, it's like is this a temptation from Satan or is it because I skipped breakfast, you know?

[00:14:08]>> Yes. No, that's a it's a great question.

[00:14:10]I I think he can have as much influence as we let him have in our lives. So, naturally, we're going to have the natural man thoughts that come into our minds and our desires and our appetites and our passions. Think of King David, right? If we let those thoughts linger in our minds, I think that's when Satan's like, "Oh, great. Here's my opportunity." And then at most he's trying to throw gasoline on a natural man fire that's burning in us. He's trying to agitate. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You want to do that? And so maybe there's whisperings. He's walking to and fro on the earth trying to cause as much chaos and mischief as he possibly can. He's trying to thwart the father's plan as much as he possibly can. But it he doesn't need to have any influence. And if you go to some of the quotes that apostles have had on the future millennial day, they even say there will still be wicked men upon the earth and they'll either pass away or they'll convert. But the point is is that even if there's wicked men during the millennium, I doubt that there's going to be as much evil as there is now and as much terribleness as there is now.

[00:15:29]So, Satan will be bound, I think, because of the righteousness of of humankind, where they're all just choosing to not listen to him anymore. I I think about the the old saying, the devil made me do it, right? And that's not something that we generally use as Latter-day Saints, but you hear it around, and it's in kind of the broader American culture sometimes. And I just think that by thinking harder about this topic, sometimes the devil made me do it.

[00:16:00]Sounds like you're blaming somebody else for choices that you made whether Satan was involved or not, >> right? But I like that by really scrutinizing this and realizing that uh Satan probably plays a smaller role than we thought. It highlights personal accountability more like these are my choices. It's not because you know there there might there may be whisperings, right? But like whether Satan is involved or not, like these are my choices and I'm going to be held accountable for them. Whatever happens, it's my fault. And it's interesting because I don't know if you ever read the seven habits, but the first one of seven habits of highly effective people being proactive is a interesting thought because it's all about taking responsibility for yourself and realizing if I'm stuck, I'm stuck.

[00:16:50]Everything is my fault and I have the power at any minute to get out of the hell I'm in if if I want, which is, I think, scary when when we're making the wrong decisions in our lives, but also really empowering otherwise.

[00:17:10]It's empowering to me to realize that Satan is not nearly as important as I used to think and that he has a lot less power than I used to think. He's just a minor annoyance if we can even call him. It's just like a mosquito, >> right?

[00:17:30]>> And that's it. We have the power as children of God, as divine beings, as eternal beings uh with a divine destiny to crush his head, right? as we say, right?

[00:17:40]>> Yeah. And Christ did. He already crushed his head.

[00:17:44]>> But it's it's it's fascinating to think, though. It's like some people, I think, wrestle with this because they're like, "Well, no, Adam and Eve had to fall, which is which is where we're coming from it as a latter as Latter-day Saints, right? We do believe that the fall, the fortunate fall was necessary."

[00:17:59]And so it's like, okay, I understand this may be a hard concept for you, but but just think for a moment, what does it mean if you put back on the lens that he's necessary? If Satan's necessary, then I'm going to put myself in God the Father's shoes for a second. Then I have to have one of my spirit children that I love make the worst decision in their life in their existence and then be separated from my presence forever and that has to happen in my plan of salvation.

[00:18:33]>> Yeah.

[00:18:33]>> It it it just defies logic and you're like, well, God knew that Satan would rebel and so therefore that solves the problem, you know? So he God didn't want that to happen, but he knew it would happen and therefore it's it's it's fine. And I'm like, "No, that still doesn't work." You're saying still, even if you say that his omniscience knew that Satan would rebel, you're still saying that in God's plan of salvation, he needs an eternal tempter. He needs one of his spirit children to rebel and be damned forever. so that we the rest of us can progress. It doesn't make any sense.

[00:19:18]>> So, in your article, you mentioned some of the other problems that arise when we assume that Satan is necessary to the plan of salvation. I want you to hit on the big one for us. Yes, absolutely. So, we just talked about how if you assume he's necessary, then God's plan of salvation is no longer just or I wouldn't even say you couldn't say he was an allloving God. You could also say that Satan is technically doing good, >> which causes huge problems. And therefore, God's punishment wouldn't be just because he's saving us if we need an eternal tempter.

[00:19:56]>> He's moving God's plan forward by doing what he's doing. Which brings us to the third and final problem, which is you've just given Satan an eternal at will checkmate against God's plan. Because all I have to do if I'm Satan is not tempt Adam and Eve and I just don't do anything and then they'll never fall and you win.

[00:20:21]>> I win. Or even if I let them fall, I just have to stop tempting the children of men on the earth and I win again. And he has an eternal filibuster to foil God's plan, if you will. But we know that God's plans cannot be frustrated.

[00:20:41]God always wins. So God allows Satan to operate, not vice versa.

[00:20:48]Sometimes when we look at the plan of salvation, you've got God the Father, you got Jesus Christ, you got Satan, and we kind of put them on like that same tier sometimes, like God on top in the pyramid, and then you got Jesus and Satan who are just opposing forces, right? Spirit brothers at odds with each other. But what you're saying is that just like Jesus Christ, massive significance, right? uh savior of mankind, >> the son of God, Satan, Lucifer, not all that important >> at all, like even less than we thought he was. I think we will be so amazed at the mercy and love of Jesus Christ and how powerful the atonement of Jesus Christ truly is. And your love, appreciation, the magnitude of our awe will only grow as we realize how necessary he only was.

[00:21:53]If Satan is truly not necessary and we experience uh adequate opposition naturally that allows us to exercise agency, why do you think God allows Satan to tempt us at all? If he's not necessary, why not just say you can't do that?

[00:22:12]>> Disassemble his intelligences and send him back to the abyss. I don't know.

[00:22:17]>> I love our model of of God the Father.

[00:22:20]It it is omnipotent but we would qualify it. God can do all things that are possible to do and even God follows laws.

[00:22:30]And I think when he casts Satan out or down, one of the laws is that Satan is separated from God's presence. He's in a prison cell. the only few places that he can go to is outside of God's presence in chaos, right? And that's where we're at right now. We're outside of God's presence.

[00:22:55]And so it's one, it's a place that Satan's allowed to go to because it's outside of God's presence and he was cast out. Two, even God doesn't take away agency even for Satan. When we as Latter-day Saints say God gave us our agency, I don't think it's like I gave them their agency, I think I as a parent can limit or increase my children's agency. If I packed up everything and I moved into the woods, disconnected myself from the internet, uh led a hermit's life, and they had no access to television or video games, uh etc., their ability to have choices would be limited. They can't play the Nintendo Switch. But God gives us agency in the sense that he gives us all these options here on this world. He gives Satan agency and Satan continues and continues and continues to use it poorly. Grow or regress. Yes, he allows us to grow or regress constantly. It's the one few places that he can go. Two, he still has his agency which God gives him. And then three, this is completely and all of this is speculative at this point, but I when I served as an attorney, we would work with defense I I served as a defense attorney. Um, and so when I served as a defense attorney, and sometimes we would take clients into what was called a dive or a plea deal.

[00:24:29]And so we would have them go, they plead guilty, and then we put in evidence in mitigation. This evidence in mitigation is not like they're not guilty. It's saying, "Your honor, he's guilty, but look at this terrible childhood that he had. What do you expect?" And I think God is constantly trying to give us um as much grace as he possibly can.

[00:24:52]Anyways, >> it's an interesting thought. And I also have wondered, and this is speculation as well, but I've wondered if by allowing Satan to do what he does, the counterbalance to that is maybe that gives God the opportunity to allow the spirit to work in our lives in a heightened sense or to balance that out.

[00:25:14]I don't Oh, I like that.

[00:25:16]>> Could be totally wrong.

[00:25:16]>> It's like if you feel if you have felt the bitter, you understand the sweet a lot more. Yeah, >> now that I have >> felt temptations, when I feel the Holy Ghost, that is almost easier to feel.

[00:25:30]>> It's so different.

[00:25:31]>> Or maybe it's like some kind of like leveling the playing field where it's like, oh, Satan gets to do these whisperings. Well, that's great because now I can put the Holy Spirit into the ring to do some counter whisperings and create those opportunities.

[00:25:49]>> I don't know, guys. Don't don't come at me in the comments for that one, but just thinking >> it's fun to think about. At the end of the day, I don't know. Yeah, >> but I do think that agency is still in operation even for Satan is the big is a big one and this is the one place he's he can go to for whatever reason.

[00:26:08]Eventually, that'll change right in the millennium. So, how has researching this topic changed the way you think and feel about God?

[00:26:19]I have walked away with um so much gratitude for my heavenly father and for Jesus Christ my savior.

[00:26:30]I know that they love me so much that they were willing to give me complete opportunity here on this earth to be an agent unto myself. I am not perfect.

[00:26:44]I've messed up a lot. But because of Jesus Christ, I've come back and I have felt to sing the song of redeeming love.

[00:26:54]And so I have walked away with this huge appreciation and love of agency.

[00:27:01]It's like even God himself would die so that we would have this opportunity to, as Brad Wilcox put it, to practice the piano.

[00:27:12]>> Yeah.

[00:27:13]>> To to try every day and fail. miserably at following Jesus Christ, but then to get back up again. And I get to try again and do a little bit better each day. And that is all because of this amazing plan of salvation, which hinges on agency.

[00:27:31]The plan is so perfect that if everyone wanted to, including the third that was cast out, everyone could have accepted Jesus Christ and progressed.

[00:27:45]That is the plan of salvation that I believe in and it's beautiful.

[00:27:50]>> That's extreme grace, extreme compassion. I want to believe that that is the case.

[00:27:59]>> I need that.

[00:28:00]>> Yeah. Grant, thank you so much for being here.

[00:28:02]>> Thanks for having me, David.

[00:28:03]>> To everyone watching, we've been talking about Satan. If you want to keep talking about Satan, go check out this episode where we talk about what Satan really wanted to do to destroy agency in the plan of salvation. Some interesting ideas over there. I'll see you there.

[00:28:24]I wanted to end with I'll see you there, but then I my cadence was off, but I'll see you