The fine-tuning argument relies more on the awe of large numbers than on actual logical necessity, making it a weak bridge between physics and faith. It effectively highlights cosmic complexity but fails to provide a definitive link to a specific creator.
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Bible Guy Debates | 05/07/26Added:
Y'all give me a second. I just had a wicked nap.
It's like the life source.
I'm going to turn the lights on.
Sorry, my conscious 616. I usually go live at a standard time, but like I've been all kinds of [ __ ] up today.
And my stream lab isn't working.
What do you mean? No.
No. Live or upcoming streams found for the Bible guy official. Well, I'm live right now, so I don't know why you're saying that.
And maybe I need to Oh boy. Oh boy.
It keeps saying, "Do I need to download the new version of the app?
Okay, I am too tired to try to figure this out right now. So, we're just going to do the show.
Heat. Heat.
Heat.
Heat.
Heat. Heat.
Heat. Heat. N.
Heat. Heat.
Heat. Heat.
Heat. Heat.
Heat. Heat.
Heat. Heat.
Heat.
Heat.
Heat. Heat.
Heat. Heat.
Heat. Heat.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Shake it. Pointing out all the lies.
Putting the scripture right in your eyes. The Bible. He reads Hebrew and Greek and shows you that your book's not unique.
>> The Bible guy.
>> He turns through the pages until every Christian rages.
>> The Bible.
>> Watch one time and you're hooked. Now, let's watch why the Christians get cooked.
>> The Bible.
>> Howdy, howdy, folks. Uh, Bible Guy here.
Uh, coming at you live from Northeast Texas. I just woke up from a nap and I've got a wicked headache.
Um, but um, we're gonna we're going to try to do the show right now. So, by the way, I couldn't get my Stream Ninja thing to work for some reason. Maybe it's cuz my computer there hair in my mouth has been on for too long. And um, so, you know, don't if you're on YouTube, don't don't send your super chats unless you really just want to donate to the Bible Guy Show, which we will greatly appreciate.
Um um anyways, let's hope we can get some good Christian interlocators. Looks like we already got someone who's ready to come up and talk to us. So, I'm going to bring them up.
Aaron. Um Aaron, I'm going ask you three questions and then we'll get to the conversation. Are you at least 18 years old?
>> Yeah, I'm 52.
>> And what pronouns do you go by, Aaron?
He and she.
>> He and she. All right.
>> I don't really understand the question.
Tell you the truth.
>> Do you know what part of it do you not understand?
>> I understand there's a male and a female. There ain't nothing in between.
>> Well, that's that's sex, bud. That's has nothing to do with pronouns.
>> I am.
>> I is a first person pronoun. Am is not a pronoun. So the standard pronouns in the English language are >> I am in Christ >> are only one of those words were pronouns. So um standard pronouns in the English language are he, him, she, her, they, them. You know, there's a multiple choice for you. So which one would you go by?
>> Okay. Well, thanks for trying to explain. I I mean when you ask me who I am, uh I'm in Christ. My identity is in Christ.
>> I am a him. Erin, right now I could not give less of a [ __ ] So you go by he him. Is that what it is?
>> Yeah. I mean I'm not I'm a man >> and irrelevant. And I guess you are a Christian from what I've gathered so far.
>> So why should I be a Christian?
>> That's the only way.
>> And why should I be a Christian?
>> Cuz that's the only way to the father god.
>> I don't think father of god is a real thing. So why should I think that's >> you got the father, the son, and the holy spirit. There's only one god. They all three three work as one. But when the father came sent when the father sent Jesus the father >> that's a [ __ ] crazy that's a [ __ ] crazy math that's a [ __ ] crazy math equation. Why should I think that any of that's true?
>> And when we put him on the cross uh he conquered hell, sin, and death for you.
>> He rose for you justification. He proved it. We had many witnesses and uh 40 days later he rose up into heaven >> and the same the same that's our lord that's our father god in heaven that's what we pray to that's our father he's everlasting father he's prince of peace >> oh my god >> dude just why should I think why should I never started understand I was there >> I didn't >> go what a [ __ ] yapper right off the baton why should I think any of that [ __ ] is cuz your soul and spirit and body >> I don't have any to depend on it. If not, it's going to be a very bad situation for you.
>> I have one of those things. I don't have a soul or a spirit, though.
>> Unless you can prove to me I do.
>> You want to test God?
>> I don't think there's a God to test unless you can provide me a reason to think so.
I'm not saying you can. I mean, I think God said not to do that.
>> Aaron, do you guys done everything he's done everything he's going to do, brother?
>> Aaron, shut the [ __ ] up with a breaching. Jesus [ __ ] Christ. Do you have a reason >> for why I should think that a god exists?
>> That video said, "Sometimes you got to know when to [ __ ] shut the [ __ ] up."
>> Yeah, I wish you would learn that lesson. So, why should I think there's a >> Why should I think there's a God, dude?
>> I mean, what if what if you don't Okay, just say the God we say you have eternal life. You'll live with him forever. But say the devil's real and he's after your soul and you going to live with him forever.
>> I don't believe in the [ __ ] devil either.
>> It's up to you. I don't know. But we're here to tell you, >> Aaron, if you don't embrace Peggy, >> I mean, if there's a God, there's a >> Aaron, if you don't embrace Peggy, you're going to get [ __ ] strapped up and [ __ ] like railed for all eternity. You want that to happen to you, bud?
>> It can't. I'm covered by the blood of Jesus.
>> No, no. Peggy's power is stronger than the blood of Jesus.
>> So Peggy's power is strong.
>> Peggy's power is stronger than the blood of Jesus. her girthy goodness will like will like absolutely stretch you open >> and fill you full of her girthy goodness if you don't accept her. Do you see why?
Like it's because you don't believe in that that it's irrelevant what I say to you because you don't believe in Peggy.
So like you keep talking about the devil and hell and all kinds of other [ __ ] that I don't believe in. So Aaron, I'm going to need you to justify when I should believe any of that [ __ ] is true.
God, Aaron, you suck ass at debating for dear God. Like if I wanted to listen to preaching, >> you don't know nothing about demons or nothing, do you?
>> Demons don't [ __ ] exist, you lobag.
Anyways, like if I wanted to hear preaching, I'd go to [ __ ] church.
Dude, >> you don't know nothing about Nephim. You don't know nothing about the Bible.
Period.
>> I know more about the Bible than you ever will.
>> Dude, open the Bible up. He'll He'll tell you the truth. That's freak. You need to be prepared to happen and take place.
>> I know more about the Bible than you ever will, Aaron.
>> Well, then you know the rapture is fixing to take place and we about to go up.
>> I happen to know that the rapture is an unbiblical doctrine that's not found in the >> Oh, that's how you get >> here. My god, this guy's a yapper, isn't he, y'all?
Hey, Erin. Um, tell me some more about Jibus Krispy. Come on.
>> Well, Jesus loves you so much. He >> Oops, mute button slipped. What was that all about?
I bet Duncan has forgotten more about the Bible.
>> Jesus is the good news.
>> I bet Duncan has forgotten more about the Bible than you know.
That's pretty That's pretty That's pretty good. Lane, >> you going to deny me three times now?
>> What was that? What was that, [ __ ] What? What was that? I'm sorry. I didn't catch that.
What do you know about Enoch? Not the book of what?
>> I said go to hell, Lorm.
>> Hell doesn't exist. I can't go somewhere that doesn't exist. Like, go to Fantasia.
That's a a he disappeared.
Oh man, they wild in the day. Uh guys, Christians, I have so little patience for your [ __ ] right now. You're going to have to do better than you know than Aaron right now.
Man alive.
This guy checks under his bed for and closet before he goes to bed every night. I believe it.
Uh, spiritual warfare says some [ __ ] about I seen hell and you don't want to go there. Well, it sucks that you had a really bad dream, spiritual awaken, but like your bad dreams don't determine for me uh what is and isn't real.
Dec discordant rhymes as Jewish carpeter wizard is my latest favorite epithet.
Yep. I seen demons cast out in Jesus name. Wow. You got some extra delusion on top of your crazy, huh?
Whatever you whatever you what whatever you say, buddy.
All right.
Which hell, by the way, says Vic, I know, right? Exactly. Like the Jewish hell, Christian hell, Muslim hell. Which hell are we talking about here?
There are at least six passages in the Bible that support what Enoch's message was to humanity. By the way, Enoch is spelled with a ch and an X. And Enoch didn't [ __ ] exist. So, who gives a [ __ ] what the Bible character had to say, right?
Hell, Texas. I mean, that's the only hell I'm aware of is Texas.
God's so great answering prayers except for the prayers he doesn't answer.
Yep, that's about right, isn't it?
Dalton blinked twice if sober. I don't I don't know if I am or not.
Uh I just got the you aren't praying hard enough from a family member shaking my head. Oh yeah, you aren't praying hard enough is the biggest bit of [ __ ] I've ever heard. Right. Anytime Jibus Krispy's powers don't work, you weren't praying hard enough.
The Gospels were written by Gnostics that mistransated the Septuagent. I don't think they were written by Gnostics. I don't have any reason to think that's true.
To be fair, everyone is atheist unless you believe in all the deities Christians hate hearing about.
Hello, Jaden.
>> Hello. Looks like you you're no longer wasted, my friend. I >> I don't know. I just took a nap and I woke up and it feels like it's the next day.
Oh, my internet's so bad.
>> Your hair.
>> My internet's so bad, dude.
>> Goth Sparkle says, "Your hair." Thank you, Goth Sparkles. I appreciate that.
Told my Catholic friend, I believe in the new revelation of Ra, the sun of Raw, the sun. The sun guy. The sun god, I bet. Yeah. And and what do they say about your worship of raw raw? The way I like my cookie dough.
I see you. The Bible guy is a misnomer.
Come on, comma. And voice recognition spelled Enoch for me. So it's not a misnomer. I am the Bible guy. I know the Bible better than most Christians do on Tik Tok.
Um that's why I'm the Bible guy. It's not a misnomer. It's quite a nomer.
I just dropped my internet is too [ __ ] Um, Peggy speed Jaden.
Hey, it's Bibble Guy. It sure as hell is, isn't it? At least the sun is real.
That's That's that. Yeah, that is true.
NASCAR is my safe word. Pineapple is my safe word.
W cookie dough. I ju I was just having its ice cream. Oh god, ice cream does sound good right about now.
I might make myself a bowl and eat it right here on live for all of your entertainment.
I see again and disappointed again.
Well, close your eyes, bud.
I love you is my safe word. That wouldn't work for me because if I'm getting railed from behind, I'm going to definitely be yelling at I love you.
You're lactose intolerant. I am lactose intolerant, but I will still [ __ ] eat that ice cream right now.
It's all right. Bathroom's right next door.
You You hanging?
I am hanging. You You're more than welcome to come up on up. Come on up if you want.
Jesus Christ.
Um, oh. Oh, that. Um, I don't know. Maybe. I don't see how that's possible. I just like sat I just went down for like a I think a threehour nap or something like that. Is that possible?
Is that all it takes is a is a good nap?
My safe word is don't stop.
I love that actually. That's so funny.
Hey Bible guy, how do you feel about more eastern views of God like Brahman and something like the towel? I I don't I don't think Brahman is [ __ ] too. I mean, I think Hinduism is pretty cool as far as mythology is concerned, but like I don't believe in any form of god.
No, just take three shots when you wake up. Um, well, I can't. I am uh I drank it all.
I know that postnap drows. I do feel drowsy as hell, but um but we're here together, you know, you, me, and Zaboo.
So you can live in eternity with God doesn't make sense not to believe. Well, living in eternity with God would would be interesting if God existed.
But sadly, I don't think that your God exists, happy horse. Unless you want to come up and give me a reason to think he does exist.
It would be boring. The way that Christians describe heaven, it does sound hella boring.
Unless heaven is like the movie What Dreams May Come. I really like that movie and that version of heaven that they have.
If I could have my own cottage on a lake.
Oh, I would love that so much.
Duncan seems calmer. I am much calmer but also I have a shorter um a shorter amount of patience right now though. Saraphim never shut the [ __ ] up to that's the other thing. All that singing would eventually get on my nerves.
Old dog says Dalton and I respond with old dog.
Listen to the Medatron all the time.
Yikes. Uh depends on on which Medatron.
If it's like the Medatron from the Supernatural, then [ __ ] that [ __ ] That squirrely little dude will get on my nerves really quick.
Mezo always gets a [ __ ] ton of brain deadad theist in his chat.
Love it.
Is this no longer a drunken live? I don't know. I have no idea. Do they have full English breakfast sandwiches in heaven? Because if not, I'm not going.
Oh, full English breakfast would go so would be so good right now.
I am I just realized I am hungry as [ __ ] y'all.
Oh, I got banana s I got these banana chips here. I guess I'll eat those.
Johnny B.
>> Hey, what's up, buddy? How you doing?
>> Oh, hey. How you doing?
Yeah, I I think I I think I have a hangover. I don't know.
>> Yeah.
>> I know how you feel, brother.
>> Trilobyte says, "Hey." Hello, Trilobyte.
>> Hey, Crunchy. It's good to see you.
Me and Crunchy, we we talk about this sometimes. It's like, what would what sound would trilobytes make? Well, they'd be crunchy. probably be like probably like a cracker snapping.
>> In my head, when I think of what a trilobyte sounds like, it it sounds like a like um like a little purring sound cuz they're just so darn cute.
>> They are. It's truly a shame that they're gone.
>> I couldn't find my shoes when I woke up.
Okay.
No degree required. No degree required.
Follow the live creator. Well, [ __ ] me.
>> Yeah, he's very dishonest.
>> I'm sure that'll be fun when it he comes up. Is this a new account? I haven't seen you go live lately. It is not a new requ It is not a new account. No degree.
I have been live every four four days every week for forever.
RIP trilobyte species. Yeah, >> I got to make sure. Okay, just making sure my voice changer wasn't on.
Question. Does the next temple have to be built over the location of the last one? Yes.
I love it when there's a simple yes or no question.
Cardig grades make cute noises in my imagination. I love a good water bear.
They're so cute with their little stubby legs >> and they're everywhere.
>> And they're everywhere. So you can have one as a pet just like there's probably one on your body somewhere.
>> No, you can have a trillion as a pet.
And >> I will name it Steve.
All of them.
>> All of them.
>> I think you leave.
>> Collect collectively. They are called Steve. Now people say tardigrades can survive nuclear war. How about tardigrades versus gammaray burst?
>> Yeah, but these they'll survive. They'll just hulk out.
>> They can survive quite a lot. In fact, I don't know if this is actually true or not, but I've heard that they might have spilled some on the moon, which could mean there's still some up there. They wouldn't be They wouldn't be like moving. They'd be preserved, but they could still theoretically be alive.
>> Yeah. Blade says, "Pardon me. I have to go take a Clorox bath." No, they're cute. Water bears are cute. I wouldn't get rid of them if I water.
>> Oh, the clocks wouldn't hurt them anyway. They would swim in it.
>> They would swim in that [ __ ] for sure.
>> It's like water to them.
There we go.
>> Look at those cuties.
>> Yeah, those things are everywhere.
>> Look at that. Someone made water bear stuffed animals. And that's a great idea.
>> I got to get one.
>> I'mma buy one. I once. Yeah, absolutely.
I've never had back pudding, but I would What? Oh, black pudding. What's black pudding?
>> I've never heard of that.
>> Someone said I would have black pudding.
I've never had black pudding, but I would try it. Let's see. What is black?
Black pudding.
is a type of blood sausage traditionally eaten in the United Kingdom and Ireland.
It's usually made from pork blood, pork fat, oats and barley, onion seasoning and spices.
>> I try.
>> My stomach just did a back flip.
>> I'm a more adventurous eater than most.
Uh mostly because um >> when I practiced uh when I was a believer, I used to eat kosher and so I had a very restricted diet and as soon as I no longer, you know, kept, you know, felt the obligation to keep kosher, I just became very adventurous eater.
>> Very good.
>> Um a buttered 29 says it's actually not that bad. And then Gratheus says it's actually pretty good. So, >> oh, just Cordon's getting an anomaly uh plushy. The first uh Apex Predator.
>> Josh, I just woke up from a nap. If you want to come up and hang out, I will most appreciate that.
Chocolatecovered grasshoppers. Guys, I have eaten I have eaten grasshoppers before. When I was in high school, I wanted I I heard that John the Baptist ate locust, and I was like, "Well, [ __ ] I should try that." So, I went to my backyard and collected a bunch of grasshoppers, and I tried cooking them and eating them. And, uh, >> grasshoppers are a lot like popcorn that you know they're done when they stop popping. Um, and you know what? It wasn't good the way I made it. I'm sure there's a better way of preparing it.
>> I ate a cricket once. Well, I ate I ate a cricket leg and it doesn't taste bad.
It just tastes like, you know, it's just it's just kind of it just tastes like it's not even a bad taste. It just is.
You know, I had a meal worm, too. Oh, I had Yeah, I had like a few frozen freeze-dried meal worm.
>> I cooked them in a skillet with garlic and butter. Someone said, "What Bible translation would you recommend someone buy for a first time full read? the new revised standard version updated edition.
That's >> Oh, Adam bought me a uh he bought me a new Oxford annotated study Bible and it's going to be here soon.
>> Lovely. I I have an NRSVE, but it's um Oh, look at those Cheezits. They're like calling from me. Hello, Cheeits. Um >> you hear that noise in the background?
>> Dalton, we're over here. Come eat us.
cheated.
>> Okay. E-haw, thank you for the cowboy hat.
>> I [ __ ] love chees Oklahoma is in the comment sector on YouTube on Tik Tok.
Everyone thanks Smoke Oklahoma for our intro song that I play on every live.
They made it for me.
>> Oh, hell yeah. I love that one.
>> Is there a good atheist Bible?
Atheist Bible.
I I wouldn't even know what an atheist Bible is. You mean Bible translated by atheist? Not that I can think of.
The sixth edition of Oxford annotated releases this year. Does it?
>> Well, I hear they keep delaying it.
>> Well, if it comes out this year, I'll buy it. The Skeptics's Annotated Bible.
Um, it's not really an atheist translation.
I think the Skeptics Entertainment Bible is is um just the King James version, but it's like it's got atheist like skeptic notes in it.
How are we still doing translations of 2,000y old texts? Thank you for the cow for the glasses. Um, it's because we we keep we keep learning new things about the Greek and Hebrew and Aramaic and so our translations need to be refined to be a bit more accurate and also language changes >> and the culture too. The King James never mentions Ashira by name. It always translates her name as a grove of trees or something to that effect. The reason being is because they didn't know who Ashur was in 1611. They hadn't uncovered any of the Ugritic inscriptions yet. So they didn't know that she was actually a deity. They didn't know that. So in the King James, for example, 2 Kings 16-17, when it mentions her name, it just says they made a grove. When they're when they're making idols of Ashira, it just says they made a grove. What it should say is they made an Ashira or they made a, you know, a sacred pole or an Ashira pole, but they they didn't know they didn't know that when the King James was made. They didn't know who she was yet, so they just translated her name. Kai says says says becoming one should be personal encounter that that happens not evidence from someone else. Well, sounds like I'll never be a Christian then because your God doesn't actually give us personal encounters. I'm not go enough to have a personal encounter and you don't have and you don't believe in God. So, how would you even have an ear to hear a believer tell you anything?
I shouldn't have to [ __ ] believe in your [ __ ] for you to convince me that it's real.
That's just another way of you telling me that you don't have any good arguments.
Like, you basically just said, "The only way you can accept my [ __ ] is if you already believe my bullshit."
I'm curious why can't why can't why they can't just build the new temple somewhere else tradition needs to be in the it needs to be on the spot that was designated isn't that the point of convincing lol they don't believe it right you wouldn't have to [ __ ] convince me if I already believed I wouldn't be up here asking why should I be a Christian.
I believed in your God.
These people are dense as [ __ ] >> Oh, I just watched your I just watched your clip on the on Dylan. What's his name? Dylan something. The guy who got up kept dancing during the debate.
>> Oh, yeah.
>> I watched that yesterday. I think I commented.
Yeah, that was um that was something for sure.
>> He was uh as soon as man, when he got on my live though, I I gotta find that. And someone tell me someone tell me where which live that was on so I can do a Dylan part two.
>> I don't remember. I think I remember you did, but I don't remember when it was.
>> I'm sure it was sometime this week. I'll just have to go and look for it.
Um, I'm embarrassed. I immediately knew who you were talking about.
>> Two days ago >> with two L's, too. Yeah, >> it was two days ago. It was the last live I did. All right, I'll go look for it. I make a Dylan part two video. But yeah, when he came on my live, he couldn't dance away. I had to force him to have the conversation and he didn't really care for that all that much.
He's like, "I'm happy. I'm jolly." No.
People who are happy and jolly jolly don't get up do a squat dance with a creepy smile on their face.
>> Chat, >> it's called a mental breakdown.
>> Chat, uh, that was funny. Here, for everyone in the YouTube comment section who can't see chat, chat's comment. Um, here, let me just, uh, let's fix it so you guys can see it. Um, where is it at? Here we go. Premise two dance. Premise two. Uh, premise one, dance. That's premise two. Dance conclusion. Dance. Dance. That's funny.
You're funny, Chad.
>> Oh, yeah. So, Jester in the comment says he wants us to yell debate in VR.
Jesterro has an interesting platform where he does debates in VR chat.
>> Really? Where?
>> I don't actually know where in the VR chat. I just saw a video he did. It was interesting. It was pretty cool.
I mean, listen, if you can get us uh if we can both me and Dylan can meet up on uh on uh Blades and Sorcery and then we can like duke it out with Blades and Sorcery, that'd be fantastic.
Dance Dance Res res revolution.
A VR chat church captain tardigrade versus Superman.
Hm.
Would Captain Tardigr tardigrade's power be that they're invulnerable? Why is >> technically super superman's also invulnerable unless you have kryptonite?
>> I guess tardigrade, Captain Tardigrade wouldn't uh care about kryptonite.
>> No, cuz he's not they're not from Krypton.
>> I want to see Dalton to debate in Roblox. Isn't Roblox for like like 9year-olds? Who would I debate? Yeah, but a bunch a lot of adults play it, too, though.
>> Oh, creepy. The only time I've ever seen an adult in Roblox, they're generally child predators.
>> Quite a few of them. Yeah.
>> Yeah. I will never I will not be jumping onto Roblox anytime soon.
>> Bl says, "I play Roblox."
>> Well, Blathe, I know you're you're safe, so you're good to go.
>> I don't trust men on Roblox.
Yeah, me neither.
>> The only non-cursed person there. I can't let my kids play for that reason.
Yeah, Josh. Exactly. If I had a If I had a kid, I wouldn't let her um play on Roblox because for that very reason, it's not safe. Too many weirdos on it.
There is a big class action lawsuit against Roblox right now. Is it for that reason?
Dalton could have become a doctor witnesser right here. What's a doctor witnesser? Envy.
>> Wait, what did they say?
>> Envy says Dalton could have become a doctor witnesser. Right here. What's a doctor? Dr. Witnesser.
>> I have no idea what that means.
do debates in Fortnite. I could do that and I win every time I get them.
>> Oh, Dalton.
>> Yeah, >> I was going to tell you about this. I sent I sent you a I I pinged you in the Discord server. I found the Gen Z Bible.
>> Oh, we've been reading it on our lives.
>> It's hilarious. I love it. I I was reading it on mine, too. I think it's hilarious.
Genesis 1:1 is hilarious.
Duncan, can you call Rod if of God one Tuesday night, please? Please. Who's Rod of God?
>> Are they atheist?
>> I think I've heard them. Yeah, I'm pretty sure they're a theist. I think I've heard that name floating around.
I've never actually spoken to them myself, but I've heard the name.
>> Sergeant's Church. Sergeant Sergeant Roy.
Oh, [ __ ] They must all be brain dead over there.
Hey, Jaro.
>> Wait, is Sergeant Roy that person that we were talking about the other day that joined and you were like stolen Valor because there was like the fake uh TED talk?
>> Yeah, >> that dude. Johnny, you got to see this dude.
>> Interesting.
>> Yeah, just look up his TED talk. It's just they it looks like that they had a TED talk happening in that place, but he just went on the stage and just gave his little spiel on it. It's not an official TED talk video.
>> Are you playing Skyrim?
>> Uh Skyrim music is indeed playing in the background as my lady is cooking.
>> Love that.
Um, >> hopefully Tik Tok doesn't >> I was going to say hopefully Tik Tok doesn't register that >> um >> www.rodofgod.org Bible Institute. Here I will um copy that and take a look at that. Paste.
Yeah. atheist. In the Gen Z version, it says, "In the beginning, God created the whole vibe, heaven and earth." And it says like, "No cap." I thought that was hilarious.
>> The rod of God. Rod of God. That sounds like Peggy's nickname. But the Rod of God Ministries. Rod of God Family Church. Oh my god, this website looks atrocious. Wait a minute.
>> It probably is.
>> Look at that. Look at Look at that. Look at that layout.
It looks like a very cheaply done one.
But what is who is this about?
>> Uh, apparently this is this is Sergeant Royy's church.
>> And is that supposed to be a flat earth at the top?
>> I hope not.
>> It's hard to tell.
>> You never know.
>> Christian Academy. I guess they have a school that they run, too, which is, you know, gross. Do they have a Do they have an about? Tell me what they're all about. The Rod of God Family Church International Bible Institute is a 120 hours course. Over this period, you will receive four certificates. Oh god, >> is this where [ __ ] Roy got his in his certificate is from this like diploma mill over here.
>> I know what our next adventure is.
>> I love how they have they say all four and then in parentheses the Arabic numeral four. All four certificates are legally notorized and federally recognized that you may use them in any endeavor of ministry that the Lord has called you to. Let it be understood that all that the four four uh certificates are given as part of your study and training commitment.
And of I bet it costs some pretty penny to be part of this.
>> Of course it does.
It's late.
>> You You missed when the registration is.
>> So, go back up.
>> When's the registration?
>> Oh, well, he took it off. If you scroll back up under registration, tuition, and schedule >> is 400 to 200 per session. Per session.
>> What? Well, also registration is held every Tuesday between the hours of 700 p.m. and 8:30 p.m.
>> It's an hour and a half long for 2 to $400.
>> That's why you have to call on Tuesday nights. No, that's the registration >> Oh man. Gee whiz.
>> I've called three times. They've never answered.
>> That is some crazy [ __ ] Maybe one of these days.
>> Yeah, just by the website it's not professional. We also don't know what her doctorate is from. There's so many qu I have so many questions.
>> Maybe one of these days I'll prank call them with you guys here.
>> Um, yes, please.
>> That sounds like fun.
>> No wonder they need them buying. Their website looks like [ __ ] >> Yeah. You think >> I mean, it was made in 1998 and that was good enough then and it's good enough now.
>> Oh, yeah. So, I wanted to explain a little bit. Um, so yeah. So my first uh I was telling this I was telling this to you uh when I first joined like the first time I joined you Dalton. I'm not sure but um VR chat I had a debate with a Catholic on uh slavery in the Old Test and like in the Bible completely and um it was after I had read uh Dr. Joshua Bowen's uh did the Old Testament endorse slavery and um what's it called?
It was like a two and a half hour debate. We had an audience of 25 people and a moderator. Uh we made it as official as you can in VR chat. Um but yeah, and uh Dr. Josh actually watched and gave critiques and all that stuff too.
>> That was cool. Um what what on what on what like um where did y'all do this VR thing at? E-haw. Thank you for the go.
>> Yeah. So >> Oh yeah.
>> Yeah. It's called It's called VR Chat and it's a place called the Night Church and it's just booming >> with people of all denominations just like freaking going at it. People like atheists like you know everything under the sun, Muslims. The list continues.
Um, you could actually download VR Chat on your phone, too.
>> I have I I think I could probably get it on my Oculus Quest.
>> You have a Quest?
>> Yeah, I do. I just kind of >> Johnny Le It's just sitting over there.
You see it?
>> It's waiting for you.
>> I know.
>> I don't think I could do it right now, though. Um Um >> probably vomit. Don't do that. Drink some water.
>> Oh, by the way, did y'all hear about uh Dr. Josh's like new course that he just put out on uh learning Hebrew?
>> Yes.
>> Oh, I help. Hey, listen. I want all of you out there taking Dr. Joshua Bowen's Hebrew class so that we can all be Hebrew experts together.
>> Hell yeah.
>> Already bought it.
>> Never did I >> like Oh, go ahead.
>> Oh, no, no, you go on. I had a I had a side note.
>> Um, it was like um what's called Hebrew 1 and it was also like learning the Hebrew alphabet as well as like a bonus if you wanted to b buy it. And I bought both and I was like, "Thank you so much for putting this out." He's like, "Let me know if you got any questions." I was like, "My guy, bow tie baba guy."
>> My uh my u mouse pad.
>> Oh, hell yeah.
>> Color me unsurprised.
>> Yeah, cuz I'm a a nerd.
>> That's okay. I'm a nerd, too. It's fine.
Just not a Hebrew nerd. Earlier today, I was talking about um >> the uh Isaiah prophecy, the woman is with child, >> and I was like I was like, never would I have thought that I would actually be having a conversation about Hebrew verb tenses that I would actually understand what I was talking about. I was like, this is a very weird point in my life.
>> Yeah, for sure. I I didn't do all that good in school. So, the fact that I'm uh able to do what I'm doing right now is pretty fantastic.
>> Yeah, I didn't do well in school at all.
>> There.
>> Most like a lot of the things I'm learning now. Like a lot of things I know now are things I learned outside of school. School just didn't really click for me.
>> Well, I think I if I could go back in time, I would definitely do a lot better in school. I was just so busy reading my Bible in class that I didn't really I took chemistry twice in high school. I passed by one single point is how bad I was doing in school.
>> That's okay. I did really well in school and I was still a Christian. So, you know, whatever.
>> I was a really bad student. If I go back, I would I would do so good at my chemistry, biology, and physics courses so I could get a job in STEM. Like I go to school uh I go get higher education in STEM field and and then uh who knows the alternate universe where I was the science guy.
>> Oh, that's Bill Nye. So Bill Nye is the Bible guy and you're the science guy >> in this alternate universe. Yes.
And the kids are watching my show at school right now. King says, "Hey, Dol, I have been fired three times because I read my Bible at work." Don't do that.
Don't do that. I'm lucky that I get to read my Bible at work and I get paid to do it. Um, let's see.
Oh gosh.
Um, where are >> Yeah, same here though.
Yeah. Where are all the [ __ ] Christians at? Like guys, there's 54 people in here. Some of you got to be Christians, right?
>> Repost.
>> There you go. Do everyone.
>> We're at 23,000 likes. Uh, which is pretty cool. I think we can get to 30.
And then redo all the reposting. Share the live with those you love, with those you hate, with your friends, and with your enemies. Yep. Put all the little hashtags in there. Good idea.
That'll >> For any Christians out there, I'm invoking First Peter 3:15 for you to come up here and defend the hope that is within you, but do it with gentleness and respect.
>> Yeah. Gentleness and respect. Yeah.
>> I was about to say, Johnny, you think they know what that verse says?
>> No, but they just learned.
>> Yeah.
>> Oh, man.
>> Well, you don't have the spirit, so you can't accurately read the Bible. So, FYP algorithm Tik Tok shop. Yep. All the words.
Um, >> maybe you should get up and dance. Maybe that would Don't do that.
>> I did get a super chat, which my my regular super chat thing isn't working here, but I will read it nonetheless.
Um, bomb.
So Aaron Rice wrote in her servant of the bones.
So Anne Rice wrote in her servant of the bones that alter meant to do no harm. Is that accurate?
What Ann Rice wrote in her Servant of the I don't know what the [ __ ] Servant of the Bones is and I don't know what Altrath is.
>> It's a book.
>> No. Well, >> you know who Anne Rice is, right?
>> Nope.
>> Um, >> she's a writer. Yeah, she's an author and that's a book that she wrote.
>> Oh, well, um, Bacon and and Bush, I appreciate the $10. I don't know who Ann rice is and I know know this book of hers and uh I don't know that alterth meant to do no harm or whether or not that's accurate but I will trust your um I will trust your judgment on this interview with a vampire is didn't end Rice write that >> yes >> oh I love >> that's her that's her famous one >> I love the movie um listat all that stuff seen it lots of times times. I had a a period of my time where I was just obsessed with vampire flicks and I watched all of them. Um, yeah. Okay, we have a guest here. The right takes I'm going to ask you three preliminary questions and then and then we'll get to the conversation. Are you at least 18?
>> I am. Yes.
>> And uh what pronouns do you go by? Uh >> he him.
>> And are you a Christian?
Yes, I am.
>> All right. Why should I be a Christian?
>> Well, I would love to jump right away into talking about, for example, things like the evidence for the resurrection of Jesus. But the frank truth is that there's no way to convince someone um of the resurrection unless they first believe, for example, that like miracles are generally possible. Um, and in order to believe that, you have to believe that something like God is generally possible. Um, and so although it doesn't on its own get you all the way to the Christian God, I do think it is necessary to start with things like the argument from fine-tuning.
>> Um, >> I think I think the argument fine tune is probably one of the weakest arguments for God.
>> Uh, why do you think so? I mean, I I'm assuming you're basically familiar then with >> if the universe is if the universe is infinitely years old and it's like existed always, then it's probably gone through so many different iterations that the the fact that we have a universe like this one is just like one of an infinite number of different universes. It's not finally tuned. It's just it's just the way it is and we managed to grow up in it the way that we are.
>> We don't know this universe can't exist any other way either. We don't have anything to compare it to. All we have is this. So we don't know if the universe could actually exist any other way than it does.
>> So it sounds like there's three things.
So first of all, on what basis would you say the universe is infinitely old?
>> I've never been given a good reason. I think it has a beginning.
>> Um are you familiar in cosmology with like space and time being sort of linked in spaceime?
>> Yeah.
>> Okay. and how like under inflationary models, spacetime itself contracts into basically a singularity at uh at the big bang.
>> As far as >> no longer considered a singularity.
>> Yeah, I was about to say as far as I understand from my old my physicist friends like Dr. Blitz, scientists don't really believe there was such a thing as a singularity. It's just that the math seems to break down once you get far enough back into the past. And the singularity is just a mathematical artifact.
They don't use the term singularity either. They haven't used the term singularity in a long time. They they more refer to as like a hot denton state. They don't really ever refer to it as a singularity anymore.
>> Okay. Well, if we look at where the universe I believe is headed under mainstream cosmology, I don't think big crunch models are favored. I think something like a heat death um is what's favored right now, which is asymmetrical.
Um, so the universe will end that way. I don't think we have any strong evidence that it will contract back into the >> Well, I mean, even if that's the case, I don't have see any reason why like another like big bang couldn't occur sometime in the future where just another like more another universe forms. I I the heat death is just end of like our current iteration. doesn't mean like in like the uh the field the quant quantum field like we could get another like another universe that comes about.
>> Yeah.
>> How does this connect to Christianity?
>> Well, as I said at the beginning, in order to get to discussing the specific claims of Christianity, you have to believe something like that something like God is possible. Then we can talk about are miracles possible. And then we can talk about the historical evidence for Christianity.
>> Well, I could be a a believer in a god and it certainly still wouldn't be a Christian.
>> Um, well, if you accept So, do you want to grant that miracles are possible?
Should we start there?
>> I'm just saying that I'm just saying that even if I did believe in a god, Christianity would not be on my list of acceptable theologies, miracles don't have to be possible for me to believe in a god.
>> Okay. So, do you think that if a god did exist, it would change how you evaluate proposed well- evidenced miracle cases?
>> I don't know about all that.
Like I would >> you don't think it would make it wouldn't make any difference in how you evaluate a proposed miracle claim if there is a god if you hold that there is a god versus >> you still have to give evidence that that that god did a miracle like true >> and the definition of a miracle I mean from our you know what we understand now is it's you you can't prove anything because by definition it's it's unable to be falsified because you can't do the experiment over and over and over and over and over again. Do you think the only kind of knowledge is knowledge that's repeatable and falsifiable?
>> That's evidence.
>> It's the only one I can really like believe in.
>> Do you think that the only form of evidence is repeatable and falsifiable?
>> No, I said evidence that to prove to to give evidence for something it scientifically it has to be repeatable.
Now, if you say that like a miracle happened and you said that happened one time and it it's never going to happen again, then that's like a historical claim. Then I'd have to have like backup his back up historically, but you would also have to prove that something supernatural happened >> and you would have to do that scientifically. I don't know any other way that you would show that.
>> So, let let me give what I think is is probably a strong example of something like this. So, let's say that there were that there was an event um involving a healing of some kind medically.
>> Well, wait. Can but but in this so in this hypothetical I'm whatever you bring up. Sure. Like if it if it fits my parameters, sure. But my question is has that happened for the God that you are saying exists?
>> Well, yes. You've you've ruined Yeah. I mean, I I was going to build up to this whole thing where I describe the hypothetical and then we all get to agree, yes, there really would be a miracle and then I cite, yes, this really did happen with an Italian soldier named Vtorio Michelli uh for whom we have X-rays before and after his trip to Lords um in France.
>> What's his name?
>> The basic Victoriao Machelli. Vi T O R I O. Last name M I C H E L I. Um his basic story is that he had some kind of cancer, bone cancer of the hip. Um the diagnosis that he was given was specifically osteocaroma after several x-rays and analysis by a few doctors. Um they tried to give him chemo. It did not do anything. His condition eventually worsened. uh the tumor became so bad that his hip >> essentially he had a medically inexplicable cure, right?
>> Uh actually yeah I mean inexplicable such that so not only did it involve a spontaneous regression of the tumor which does happen very rarely for cancers of the bone.
>> What did you just say? What did you just say?
>> That's one half of the miracle. I'm going to explain the other half now. The other half is that his joint regenerated such that it became functional again >> and that this happened >> that this happened that has >> say that again >> bone and tissue can regenerate given enough time.
>> So there has never been a case of a hipbone regenerating. There's never been anything close to it such that the joint becomes >> you're telling us of one.
>> Yeah. And >> this is the fundamental problem with miracles is that you have absolutely no way to link them to your god anyways.
It's just a medical.
>> Can you let me finish explaining the the case?
>> Yeah. I'm just saying though like it just just because there's a medical phenomenon that we can't necessarily explain doesn't mean that a god did it.
You would need to provide some kind of evidence that your god was actually responsible for it.
>> Right. Now, if you said he lost his leg and then the leg grew back, then I would be more interested in this possibly being maybe not a miracle, but maybe something that's like weird. But I agree that it doesn't still doesn't get us to your specific god.
>> Okay. So, to finish my explanation of the case, I agree a leg growing back would be stronger evidence, but that doesn't somehow negate that this is evidence. um this healing which is the only one of its kind in all of the medical literature that we have and believe me I have looked feel free to do it yourself um it is the only thing we have on record of a hipbone regenerating in this way to become fully functional again after some even if let's say it was a misdiagnosis it wasn't actually osteocaroma which is the most severe form of this let's say it was just some saroma of the hip which I think is very reasonable considering they had x-ray before and after the the regression and the regeneration happened coinciding with his pilgrimage to Lords. Him subjectively reporting that literally the moment they prayed over him and he was lowered into the waters was the moment that his incredible pain he was on a stretcher um when he was lowered in went away. He believed that he didn't need his cast anymore, but his doctors did not let him take it off until they took X-rays and saw the regeneration.
Um, and eventually he did take it off.
He went on to work in a factory doing full shifts. I believe he's still alive.
He's like an assistant at Lords today.
Um, and so the evidence, quote unquote, that this is actually a miracle and not simply some other kind of incredibly inexplicable medical event. is that it happened to coincide uh quite tightly in terms of timing with a faith related event which is extremely unlikely under alternate explanations.
>> Is it a zero per chance 0% chance that it could happen naturally?
>> Um there's no known mechanism that could explain it happening naturally. So, God of the gaps, >> it's not God of the gaps unless you think God of the gaps is an unfalsifiable objection.
>> I mean, if let me give you an example, hold on.
>> Is it is it at best it is an argument from personal incredility? Like, I don't know how this could possibly >> It's not This was published in mainstream medical journal.
>> Well, no. All you >> medical journal did not say it was therefore.
>> Yeah.
>> No, they could not say it was a miracle.
But let me give you an example. So if I lived in 33 AD and let's say I saw Jesus Christ >> Le wanted to say something. Okay.
>> So the thing is that you know what even if I say okay this is some kind of miracle.
>> Sure.
>> What what the So you're telling me that this miracle happened but all the other people didn't get cured?
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. All of those babies >> didn't get cured.
>> All of those All of those people didn't get cured, but this guy did. Why this guy?
>> Yeah. I mean, if you want to talk about the problem of evil, we can talk about it, but saying that you have like a moral objection.
>> No, I asked you a question. I asked you why him and no one else. That's not the problem.
>> No, I don't know why him specifically.
Here's how you can convince me if miracle that miracles do occur from Jibus Krispy dude. U get a Christian um have them pray over 50 people who have known ailments and then immediately all 50 of them are healed one after the other. We test them to see that they are in fact healed. Then you can demonstrate that there is in fact a correlation between prayer and healing. But like this one off of something that we don't we it's not a 0% chance of happening naturally. It's not really good evidence for like a deity is responsible for this.
>> So I would say Victoria >> Machelli with an M.
>> M I C H E L I.
>> Okay. I I want to look into this as well. But so you just gave me something new to look at. So I do appreciate that.
>> Yeah, no problem. I mean it's a really interesting case. Um I'll say that guy James Randy, he attempted a debunk. Um, the debunk has been debunked. He basically he pointed out that a magazine that reported on it after it came out contradicted itself on the details, but a magazine is not a reliable source in the first place. Uh, the reliable >> James Randy James Randy said that he explained it through medical, natural, or psychological means.
>> Um, name >> uh, the guy or Randy?
>> The guy. Because I can't find I can't find anything about it.
>> Sure.
Um, so I've read Ry's actual section of his book and like specifically what he claims about this case. Um, he makes a couple false claims like that he found another example just like it in a Norwegian journal. Um, I have a copy of that paper. It is not at all the same.
It's a regression only of um, a bone cancer of the hip and someone who was walking with crutches. Um, again, regressions do happen very rarely. the actual like one of one case in this case is the regeneration of the hip joint such that it's functional again. Um, and his thing about the magazine is is just bogus. I mean, it was the the credible source for this that I would recommend is that there was an article in the Canadian Medical Association Journal um that recounts this. It has two of the X-rays as well. Um, it gives sort of like the quote unquote reliable version of the timeline of these X-rays. Um, the CJ is actually a mainstream medical journal. So, it's not just like a Catholic faith publication or something.
>> I'm seeing here it's I'm reading here.
It says, >> "Bone remodeling and partial regeneration absolutely can occur biologically under certain conditions.
The question is whether this specific degree of reconstruction after this specific disease was medically expected.
>> So it's never happened in the hip before. Um the only even nearly comparable case is that in someone's mandible like their jaw after having this kind of cancer. Um if there's been a surgery that removes the tumor and clears sort of like a runway for regeneration to occur. Um, sometimes because of a known mechanism that exists only in the mandible due to certain cells that are present there that are not present in other bones. Um, there's a rare chance for like a partial regeneration of some kind. Um, but not only in this case, sorry, go ahead.
>> No, go ahead.
>> Not only in this case was there like some regeneration like the bone regenerated like his hip. So his hip prior was like his leg, his femur was floating in tissue. It was completely detached from his actual hip joint. Um, and his actual hip joint became functional again post regeneration. And he like used it every day. He worked a full-time job. So he went from completely unable to stand, like crying out in pain, you know, wouldn't eat.
They basically gave him less than a year to live. um to post regeneration being able to walk, being able to work a factory job on a factory floor eight hours a day. Um no other known case. And so like if there were like five of these cases and like just like one of them happened to be um that it was at the exact >> and let's even say it wasn't the exact moment.
>> At the end of the at the end of Oh god, my headache is coming back. At the end of the day, >> sorry, >> all this is is like we have a medical marvel that is unexplained, but like not even a magic or of a god.
>> I would I would need to know that there's a 0% chance that this could ever happen naturally.
>> Yeah, I would just say that like just based on on what I'm looking at here because I'm kind of looking at the paper myself, it doesn't really seem like a miracle. It seems just like a some kind of medical phenomenon that we've never seen before that happens sometimes. It's how we get new things in medicine.
Sometimes people survive things they shouldn't or sometimes they heal in ways they shouldn't. That doesn't that's not evidence for a god because you have all these other cases where people don't heal that way and you have no way to actually think a god either >> and it was originally published in the Catholic medical association.
>> That's another issue.
>> Now there is about originally published but >> I'm looking at it.
>> Okay.
So I'm >> and it's not a peer-reviewed study. It's just a case report.
>> I remain Canadian.
>> So the Canadian Medical Association journal is a peer-reviewed publication.
>> Yes. It was it was given to them. It was given to them and they put it in their journal, but it was originally from the Catholic um medical whatever it's called Lare Quarterly. I forget what it's called.
>> Catholic medical association.
>> Yeah. But they were given the actual materials of the case and like the doctors and everything like they they were it's not like the Catholic association handed them their case report. They handed the Canadian Medical Association the actual X-rays and related materials. That's why the X-rays, for example, are published in the CJ um article on it.
>> It's a it's a copy from the one from the Catholic Medical Association. And and and just because it's published doesn't mean it's peer reviewed in the same way.
>> Hold on. Hold on. When you say copy, but when you say copy, the article that was published is not a copy of what was written in the Catholic journal.
>> Was it peer reviewed?
>> You didn't even know the Catholic journal existed before I told you. So, how do you know that?
>> No, I didn't know that it was first. Um, I have read. So, is it like by someone named Lionel, I think, is the last name.
Uh, what's the last name of the author on the Catholic uh medical journal?
>> Uh, I don't ne >> Okay. Yeah. Um, so I was aware of that.
That article contains other issues as well. So it contradicts I think it claims that no chemotherapy happened.
Um, whereas the CJ article does report that chemotherapy was tried. um prior to his prior to the cure happening um not so chemotherapy was tried the doctors concluded it was not doing anything chemotherapy was ceased >> uh other forms of treatment were ceased >> could they be wrong >> they could be wrong >> they could be wrong but chemotherapy doesn't cause regeneration of bone >> no no but it could reduce the cancer to such a way that it could eventually regenerate this is what I'm saying is so what what you have isn't a miracle doesn't seem to be a miracle what you have is a rare medical case where somebody's body healed in a way that it normally wouldn't do that. That's pretty cool. That is really cool. I like that.
>> Is this with regards to cancer?
>> So, uh it's it's a type of bone cancer that not only regressed but also the the bone thereafter regenerated from an extremely damaged state such that a hip joint that was completely destroyed became functional again. So, let let me establish a baseline because I've been wanting to do this for a little bit in this conversation. So if there's no known naturalistic mechanism for this to happen, there has to come some limit. Uh so like let me So like if I lived in in 33 AD and I watched Jesus Christ on the cross get like killed, crucified, like he's definitely dead. I check his pulse myself after. He's dead. Um, three days later, >> three days later, I see the the stone roll away and Jesus Christ comes out alive again. I'm not saying this actually happened. I'm just making >> No, no, no, no. You guys are mistaking what my argument is.
>> Just to be clear, if I'm in this hypothetical, would I also believe that the sun revolves around the Earth?
Because like that would be okay. That would also be pretty part for the course for that for that analogy.
>> Can I Can I finish making what my point of bringing it up was?
>> You can I'm just trying to make sure that we're working with an accurate analogy.
>> I'll tell you this.
>> If we assume all the little tidbits of the gospel are true, then all the little tidbit would be true.
>> I I understand what you're saying, but that's not the point I'm trying to make.
I'm just trying to make a point about evaluating if a miracle happened or not.
I'm saying would it be reasonable for me to conclude if I with my own because this is like my base case. I'm trying to establish a base case where it becomes no longer acceptable to say well maybe he just did that. Maybe he just his body just >> until you prove to me until you prove to me that it's that something not naturalistic has ever existed or has happened than than any naturalistic explanation is infinitely more it's it's more likely or more whatever it it's more probable that like an alien came down and raised Jesus proposing okay >> an alien would fall under natural under naturalism assuming that they exist but The thing is is like you're with your case specifically with cancer. Um this is a really really shoddy example because I I know that this is I mean I'm I'm not a doctor. I'm not an oncologist.
Um I'm certainly not an immunologist nor am I an osteologist. Um, I I understand that it's a very it's a very fantastic uh case where it sounds like not only did the cancer go away, but like there was regeneration. But this is also what what interests me about this is I just learned there's a specific type of cell that elephants possess. It's a specific it's not even a cell. It's a part portion of their DNA and it's called like TB312 or something like that. and they have way more of this specific um subset of DNA than humans do which this is actually the reason why they don't get cancer despite the fact that paradoxically they're much larger. So in theory they should be getting cancer at higher rates but they don't because they have this like TB312 or something like that. So I guess what you haven't ruled out in this is the presence of that specific gene maybe having a slightly like elevated presence in this person as opposed to other people. Maybe not on the same like like level as like elephants do but probably more than the average population. Like did this study account for that? That would be a huge because that would because this specific protein >> uh allows immune cells to target and uh eliminate cancer cells >> which would then allow for you know regeneration to take place because bones do that all the time. When you break your bone there are new bone cells that regrow and take the damaged ones place.
So how did the study account for that?
So the the study for the record and this is I I have no problem admitting this like a study published in medical journal is not going to conclude as its conclusion that a religious miracle occurred. Like the the limits of what a mainstream medical journal could say is just that this is medically inexplicable and we've never seen anything like this.
>> So then if it's medically inexplicable, you asserting a god or a miracle is just god of the gaps.
So, let me let me basically show you like I just gave you another like I just gave you a likely naturalistic real quick real quick. I have to read this uh note from a from a a patron um adult in the Bible guy reading up on this Victoriao Michelli guy. It seems like a bunch of bull. He was already previously given treatment in the army and the specific thing he was diagnosed with has a misdiagnosed rate of like 70% even by today's standards. And then even what he did have literally can reassify as it recedes.
>> Oh, so well there's the explanation.
>> Um I'm afraid not. So can you remind me what was the what was the first thing he said to you? Why? Hang on. Why do you want Hang on. I'm curious. We just have an example that there was prior treatment and that this specific cancer is known to reassify like once it's eliminated, it is known.
>> That's not true.
>> Okay. What's your evidence?
>> Yeah. What's this? What's the name of this cancer?
>> You guys, so the one he was diagnosed with is osteocaroma.
>> Okay.
>> Osteocaroma.
So I don't know about a 70% misdiagnosis rate when there are X-rays taken. But even if that were true, the misdiagnosis would not be like he had nothing. It would be okay. He doesn't have osteocaroma specifically. He has a different kind of saroma of the hip joint. It says yes osteo osteocaroma lesions can sometimes show reostification new bones formation of re or remmineralization but the context matters a lot >> now can you look up does this require a perryioium >> are are you in the medical field I'm just wondering >> at this point >> I have done a lot of research on this specific >> I don't care how much I I would like to know whether or not you have a medical background cuz I don't have a medical background.
>> No, I don't have a medical.
>> Does cancer Okay. Does cancer sometimes go into remission like spontaneously?
>> Does that happen regardless of whether someone is a Catholic or a Muslim or a Hindu?
>> Yes, it does.
>> Okay. So then how is this any different from cases where it happens in the Hindu religion?
>> Because this is not simply a remission.
And it is a full regeneration for a functioning completely destroyed.
>> Got it. So this could not be possible in any other religious demographic. You've ruled that out.
>> We've never observed it any other time than this one.
>> Really? Please show me the data that shows the reassecification rates of this specific cancer compared to specifically taking into account religious demographic. Please show me the DOI number.
Well, you're asking me to prove that there is no DOI number.
>> I'm not asking you for a proof. I'm asking you for >> Okay. So, you're asking me for evidence for a DOI number that I'm saying doesn't exist. That's my argument. There's no other case like this.
>> There's no >> I'm not saying I'm saying that there's no comparable case to this in the medical literature. I've looked. So, I can't site you.
I've looked in many uh J store or I forget what the site was. I've looked in a lot of archives. I've looked in a lot of uh >> name one journal that you've looked at.
>> I have not looked by journal but through various scholarly search engines. Uh wait a minute various scholarly.
>> Okay. Can you name one article that you or not article but one journal? I could find it because Google Scholar will take you to various >> Yeah, please. That'd be great because if you're true that would certainly go towards your position. Can you tell me like one journal that Google Scholar threw your way?
>> Sure.
>> So, let me pull up the closest comparable case that I could find.
>> Okay.
And just, you know, all of this being said again, even if I say, "Okay, fine.
This is completely inexplicable. Maybe it's a miracle." Um, I don't necessarily believe that therefore that means it's the Christian God or whatever version of the Christian God you're referring to.
>> Um, I was thinking >> it could have been a different God. It could have been a different God that saw the guy and said, "You know what? You're not praying to me, but I'm I'm a good God, so I'm going to go ahead and heal you."
>> So, >> is there any evidence to support that it would be the Christian God?
So it was done in a Christian faith related context and tightly tied to that.
>> But the god can I ask you this like do you think >> but the god that lathe has suggested is a god that doesn't care who you worship.
He's willing to appeal people irrespective of their faith affiliation.
>> So would you say that this happening in the context like like let's say this happened under a Hindu uh faith-based context. Would it be just as strong evidence for me to cite this as evidence for the Christian God in that case versus in this case?
>> I don't think it's strong at all.
Especially >> just as like relatively >> I think it would have the same meaning for any religious deity that you would bring up because unless it's unless unless like it's like you know it's like oh I want to be healed and then someone appears and says hey I'm Yahweh. um or I'm Vishnu uh and I'm going to heal you now. Kablami. Um then then I don't think it necessarily proves one religion over another. And also the fact that that this is a miracle site, right? But what about everyone else that went there to get healed? They didn't get healed.
>> Um yeah, I agree. I mean that that we can talk about that if you want. I again I don't know why Victoriao Michelli specifically uh was healed versus other people. Um I can try to give an account as to why mostly um people are not healed just like at whim based on this.
But first I would like to find the uh study that I promised I would find.
>> Yeah. I mean I mean it just sounds to me like people are getting healed at the same rate as chance.
So the problem with saying something like that is that that would predict that we would have like five analogous Victoria Machelli cases or like many more than five to be honest to make it really what we have underm many many many more who are not healed >> and I don't know where you get the number five >> that's fine but naturalism well five was a random example naturalism would predict that so like let me let me give you two predictions So under naturalism, I would predict that any kind of one medically inexplicable event would happen not really correlated to any particular faith event. I mean it could but it's >> and what are you basing this prediction on?
>> Um well natur do you think naturalism would predict that they are correlated with faith? I don't know that naturalism makes I think naturalism is just as like a school of thought. I don't know that it makes any like actual predictions. I don't like I don't know that platonism makes predictions.
>> So it's >> uh medicine like the field of medicine and biochemistry those can make predictions.
>> I think I think >> naturalism makes no predictions.
>> I think I think what we see is that people are that people are getting healed in all different sorts of faith backgrounds whether you're Muslim, Hindu, Jewish, Christian or what have you. And the majority of people don't don't get this guy's name.
>> And the majority of people don't get healed.
>> Um, but some people do. And like that's exactly what I would expect to see under like under a naturalist worldview.
>> Who was this guy that got healed?
>> Victoria, I added you.
>> Victoria Mitchell. And I I found the uh I found the the article.
>> I'm still confused on why Dalton should be a Christian.
Well, we're in the process of discussing that. I guess >> we're on the journey.
>> So, wait, I'm sorry. How do you spell his last name?
>> Mitchell.
>> Okay, I got it.
>> M I C H E L I.
>> So, this is an article published in the Acta Orthopedica Scandinavica, which is a Scandinavian um medical journal that focuses on medicine relating to bone. Did you play >> orthopedics and related subd disciplines?
>> Did you say that healings don't occur in Hinduism?
>> I don't think there are as so there are healing claims that occur in Hinduism. I have looked I admit I've mostly looked in the in the claims of Islamic literature. However, even in Hindu literature, I don't think there are as well evidence. I don't think there's any that are as well evidence.
>> Not in Hindu literature like in like modernday Hindus receiving healing of like cancers disappearing, paralysis improving, blindness healed, heart disease cured.
>> Yeah. Sorry. Sorry. When I said literature, I meant like medical lit like I meant like well medically well evidenced healings.
>> Yeah. So like PubMed just I I just did a quick scan so I can't say that I've researched this. But the conclusion was yeah it went into remission. There's no medical explanation. So we have an instance where we don't know what happened. We have an instance where we just genuinely um have no real explanation and you are shoehorning in this faith. How is this any different in >> Yes, you are. I don't care where he was geographically on he could have been on a pilgrimage to the Mecca for all I give a [ __ ] And if this happened, >> okay, congratulations. But he wasn't.
But if you were Muslim and this was a pilgrimage to Mecca, you'd be arguing the exact same thing now, wouldn't you?
>> And also remember, my God is the one.
>> You couldn't take this as evidence. I couldn't take this as evidence for Christianity. If it was a pilgrimage to Mecca, stronger evidence for Islam certainly.
>> Okay. Exactly. So that's what I'm telling you. If this happened on the pilgrimage to Mecca and you were Muslim, you would be arguing the exact same position with in favor of Islam. Does this copy and paste what's problematic about that?
>> Because it essentially just first off it is still at the end of the day a god of the gaps fallacy. We have an we have an event for which we don't have a logical or any naturalistic explanation. We just don't know. What we do know is that cancer goes into remission at times. It just does because that's how DNA works and we haven't controlled for other variables. you still haven't addressed the protein sequence that I brought up earlier. You handwaved that away. Maybe it's cuz you're scared. Maybe it's cuz you don't know what it is. Maybe it's because you recognize that it blows a [ __ ] hole in everything because it indicates there's an amino acid set that decreases and and like really aggressively attacks cancer cells.
>> Would you like me to address that argument because it's it's very similar to what I was saying before. So you can postulate some unknown natural mechanism to go through. Okay. So, you're not going to address the amino acids that I mentioned earlier.
>> Okay. So, you you can take the So, it's an amino acid.
>> Hold on. Hold on. Hold on, guys. Guys, guys, y'all, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I I you know, uh Dalton can tell me to to be quiet and you can go on. Maybe maybe we should go to like something biblical or, you know, not having a conversation about I don't even know what you said, protein, something or another. I I will I will say that I've been bored of this healing claim for the last 30 minutes.
It doesn't really >> like >> Wait till about megaurches.
>> Unless the right takes can I mega churches >> unless the right takes can demonstrate to me that there's absolutely no possibility that a naturalistic occurrence could have happened. This is like this is why I don't I always wave away miracle claims in these conversations. I'd rather have something a bit more >> substantial for God's existence like But guys, there's people in wheelchairs who go to megaurches and like there's there's never been documented like evidence of this ever happening and they stand up and they walk again. It's there's never been any medical documentation of that ever.
>> Any claim like that?
>> Yes. Who has?
>> Yeah, we can go to the problem of I mean the I mean Dalton's asking why he should be a Christian. Did you become a Christian because of this fa because of this miracle?
>> Um no. No.
>> Why did you become a Christian?
>> Um, I became a Christian because I believe that Jesus and the cross is the only So, I think that God is real generally.
>> Wait, wait, wait. I'm sorry. So, hold on. I'm I'm really sorry to interrupt you. Do Do you mean like you read it and then you believed it or like you had like a spiritual experience and then you believed it? like what was the mechanism that caused you to believe these things?
>> So I will say like by now I could talk about not my own spiritual experiences but those of people who I know personally um but what caused me to believe it. Um so I think that the arguments for God existing are good and then from there to think why Christianity is true. I think Christianity offers the only account, and I I do think the Gospels are reliable. I was too young when I first read them to really give like a good argument as to why I think they're generally reliable as eyewitness testimony.
>> Now, you think they're reliable?
>> Here. Yeah. Wait, wait, wait. Let's just let's just let because I got I do have something to say about the Gospels in a second, so just let him go.
>> Okay. So I would say that I think the Christian account, Jesus, um the incarnation, God becoming man, taking on suffering, um the cross, uh his teachings about loving your enemies, uh doing good even to those who persecute you.
>> Um so his teachings strike me as profoundly true. and also his what happens on the cross to me is the is the only theistic account I've encountered so far that can make sense of things like the problem of evil.
>> Would you agree with me that one of the central claims of the New Testament is that Jesus is the Messiah?
>> Uh yeah. Yeah, I would.
>> Would you say that in order to identify someone as the Messiah, they must fulfill messianic prophecy?
>> Um it's an interesting claim. I don't so you might be surprised to learn um I don't hold a very strict view of inherency um particularly with the Old Testament.
Um, and so it would be hard for me to give an account of which messianic prophecies I think >> I mean are guaranteed to come through in Jesus or not.
>> If the go if the gospel authors are quoting the Old Testament >> to make Jesus look as if he's the Messiah, >> but they're quoting it out of context or mistransating it. Does should that inspire confidence in me?
>> Um, it depends. There was a known prophetic sort of way of writing at the time that would take verses that were not intended prophetically and present them in sort of like a new lens given some kind of new prophecy. I don't think that's exclusive to the gospels.
>> That's not prophecy. That's just it's it's called making a peshure. It's not prophetic. It's just it's just it's bad ex Jesus.
Well, I wouldn't take those accounts as like positive evidence for Jesus being the Messiah. Um, if you mean like when Matthew quotes verses of the Old Testament that were not intended to be messianic prophecies and >> what do you consider is a messianic prophecy from the Old Testament that Jesus did fulfill them?
>> Um, we could take the suffering servant songs of Isaiah. Um, >> you can take uh when Zachchariah says, "Just pick the best. Just pick your best one."
>> We'll talk about that one.
>> Uh, sure. Let me find the chapter.
>> Dolphin probably knows where it is. Like if it's a suffering servant or you can tell him which one it is and he'll he'll know which one it is.
>> Unless it's Isaiah 53.
>> Is it Isaiah 53?
>> Yeah, it's probably Isaiah 53. I'm still getting there, but that sounds right to me.
>> If I read the section of the book of Isaiah without any knowledge of Christianity or the New Testament, would I come away with the belief that Isaiah 53 is a prophecy about a future suffering Messiah?
>> I believe so.
>> Really? Because here, before we get into Isaiah 53, let me test something real quick.
>> There are two sentences I'm going to present with you. I want you to tell me the difference between these two sentences.
I went to the store versus I shall go to the store.
>> Okay. Um, so do you know what like a prolleptic saying is?
>> Prolleptic literature.
>> Prolleptic that's the right word. Yeah.
Prolic.
>> Oh, is that is that present prophet tense?
>> Um, so like I can give you an example in Luke here. Here's one that even other Christians like often get wrong, I think. So in Luke, Jesus says something that's like um I saw Satan fall like lightning. something like that. And uh many Christians have misinterpreted this as referring to like some event that happened in the distant past. Um when actually in like prophecy and again this is not exclusive to uh Isaiah or the Old Testament books as far as I'm aware it is um I think a known practice to talk about something as if it is already assured that it like you're talking about it in the past as if it's assured that it will surely happen. This is the prophetic perfect, which is not anything that's actually been demonstrated within Hebrew grammar. This is something that is only espoused by apologists in order to get away with the fact that the Bible doesn't make actual prophecies and about the future, but ether rather speaks about things that either have occurred or are occurring. But there's no real good reason to believe um that this is an actual feature of the Hebrew language.
Um, yeah, I'd have to look into it. I don't think it's a a feature of the language per se, but more like a literary technique. Um, I guess I would have to look into that more.
>> It's not a literary technique either, cuz like Jeremiah 23 is a actual prophecy about the future, and it doesn't use the perfect tense to describe the things that will happen. It uses the imperfect tense, >> right? I didn't claim that necessarily all prophecies use uh the prophetic perfect, >> but like wait, are the prophecies made in like Jeremiah 23 not like set to happen in the future?
>> What are the prophecies in Jeremiah 23?
I don't know off the top of my head.
>> It's about the It's a prophecy about the Messiah and his future reign. Uh here Jeremiah 23.
>> Um let's see.
The days are surely coming, says the Lord, when I will raise up for David a righteous branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land.
In his days, Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell live in safety, and this is the name by which he will be called. Yahweh is our righteousness.
>> Mhm.
>> Is that not assuredly going to happen?
>> Uh, I believe it will. I mean, >> but it uses the imperfect tenses to describe but not the perfect tense.
>> So, did you think that there was a a Did you Did you say it just identified the Messiah with Yahweh?
>> No. No. The name of the >> You mind rereading it?
>> Yeah. By the way, it says and his the name by which he will be called is Yahweh is our righteousness. Isn't identifying the Messiah as Yahweh.
Because >> if you read Jeremiah 33, it later identifies the city of Jerusalem as being called Yahweh is our righteousness. But the city of Jerusalem isn't Yahweh.
>> Okay.
I guess I'd have to look into that chapter. I'm not that familiar with it.
But anyways, I have no good reason to think that this is how prophecy works in the Hebrew Bible. If I see something written in the imperfect tense, like he was wounded for our transgressions, I'm going to assume rightfully so, as I would with any other literature, that this means that the person who's described as suffering is suffering, has already suffered.
So if there were, for example, like Jewish commentaries predating Christianity that held this to be a messianic uh passage, would you take that as evidence that it was indeed messianic passage?
>> We have zero commentaries prior to Christianity. The first thing we have about the Messiah being is about the Tarum Jonathan >> which is dated to the second to fourth centuries CE.
Yeah, I guess you'd be right. I uh I probably was thinking of the target Jonathan. Um well, still a non-Christian Jewish source, is it not?
>> Yeah, but that's like written 700 sorry, not 700 like uh let me think. Um it's like 600 years after the time of Deuteriah and like when prophecy fails, Jewish people are, you know, they have two options, right? You either throw out the words of the prophecy or you renegotiate with the scriptures. And more often than not, they're just more willing to renegotiate with what the Bible says. So even though the prophet specifically says that the unclean and the unrighteous would no longer enter into the Jewish people, you know, when that fails, what do you do?
>> Now, you used an interesting phrase. You used the phrase when prophecy fails.
Now, do you have in mind the specific uh study by who was it? The guy Fessinger.
>> Yeah, I don't know who that is.
>> Who? Uh, all right. All right. Never mind. Coincidence. Then >> on on the topic of Sorry, go ahead.
>> I was like say for example, we have Isaiah 52:1, which is immediately preceding the suffering servant psalm, which says, "Awake, awake, put on your strength, O Zion. put on your beautiful garments, oh Jerusalem, the holy city, for the uncircumcised, >> and the unclean shall enter you no more.
And then within just a couple hundred years, >> the Greeks take over the Jewish people who and they are both uncircumcised and unclean. So as a Jewish person, what do you do when this prophecy fails? You can throw out Isaiah or reinterpret it.
So would you say that um if there were a prophecy in the Old Testament corpus that were extremely unlikely to come true under a naturalist worldview um that is one of a kind. So it's not like a selection effect where there's like a ton of other prophecies like this. So it just happens that this is the one that came true.
um that even if there were a number of failed prophecies that a prophecy coming true that is incredibly unlikely >> that would prove that that naturalism had some had some means of actually predicting the future.
>> Do you have an example?
>> Interesting. I mean yeah sure. Um, so Jeremiah 16, um, near the end of the verse. So I can read the specific I believe it's like a poetic section that starts in verse 19.
>> And when you tell this people all these words and they say to you, why has the Lord pronounced all this great evil against us? What is our iniquity? What is the sin?
Therefore, the days are surely coming, says Yahweh, when it shall no longer be said, as Yahweh lives, who brought the people of Israel up out of the land of Egypt, but as Yahweh lives, who brought the people of Israel up out of the land of the north and out of the lands where he had driven them, for I will bring them back to their own land that I have given to their gave to their ancestors.
I am now sending for many fishermen, says Yahweh. And they shall catch them.
And afterward I will send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them from every mountain and every hill and out of every clft of the rocks. For my eyes are in all their ways. They are not hidden for my presence, nor is their iniquity concealed from my sight. And I will doubly repay their iniquity and their sin because they have polluted my land with the carcasses of their detestable idols and have filled my inheritance with their abomination. Oh Yahweh my strength and my therefore I'm going to teach them says that the time by power.
Yeah. Like are you >> from 19 to the end is the one that uh I I had in mind. I mean I don't mind you reading the whole segment.
>> Do you do you think that the modern day restoration of Israel is fulfillment of this?
>> No. No I don't.
I would say that from from verse 19 to 21 there is a prophecy that the nations um and actually I think the Hebrew just says nations but later elsewhere in Jeremiah pretty much defines what nations Jeremiah has in mind when he talks about the nations and the nations the Hebrew word always refers to gentile nations uh in the plural like this there's >> it's pretty much a rule >> so it says that the nations will say that their gods are nothing but lies and that they will come to hold Yahweh, they will know his name and so forth.
Basically describing that there will come a day when many nations, even the list that Jeremiah gives elsewhere, will say that their former gods were fake.
They were nothing but lies and they will come to worship Yahweh. Um, >> and this happens after what event that Jeremiah prophesied would happen.
>> Um, >> in the previous verses >> in the future.
>> No, no. Right before the nations abandon their gods, >> which there are many nations that still haven't abandoned their gods. What does Yahweh say will happen?
>> Behold, I'm going to send for many. They will have them for my eyes. I will repay them double. He will repay members of Israel who have fallen into idolatry for their punishment. I think that's the exile because if I remember right, Jeremiah is um it's either like right at the beginning of the exile or like right before it. Um so >> it describes that God is going to gather all the children of Israel from the four corners of the world and bring them back to the land and then the people will turn from their idolatry. Did this occur prior to the inception of Christianity?
>> I will restore to them their own land which I gave to their fathers. I will fish for them for my eyes. I will repay them.
>> Okay. I mean, is there any is there any statement? First of all, this is Jeremiah uh 16 from 14 to the end. Um, is there anything here starting from verse 19? I guess the day of distress, my refuge in the day of distress.
>> Why are we starting in verse 19? Verse 10 is where it talks about.
>> What I'm asking is that is there anything in the chapter that says like thereafter, Lord, my strength and my stronghold and my refuge in the day of distress. To you the nations will come.
Because it does kind of seem to me like starting in verse 19 when he starts to say, Lord, my strength and my stronghold. I mean, keep in mind the chapters, as far as I'm aware, are imposed on the actual text. I don't think, >> as are the verses, >> the chapters are original.
>> It it tells us that. So, what I'm saying is >> God is going to gather the children of Israel from the four corners of the world and then the nations will abandon their gods. But like some nations have abandoned their gods.
>> Where does it say and then?
>> Well, it's a ser it's the giving the prophecy. It tells us first that the children of Israel would be gathered in and then it goes on to talk about how the nations will abandon their gods.
>> So I mean to my reading we have from verses using what we like you said we've put the verses onto it from 14 to the end of 18 we have prophecies about this is what the Lord is declaring that one day he will gather um the people of Israel back into that land. Then in verse 19, Lord my strength and my stronghold and my refuge in the day of distress to you the nations will come.
Um we can't >> necessarily see like something like and then will happen after that.
>> We can't divorce it from verse the previous verse 18 like it the like the verse 19 >> I don't think I'm artificially divorcing it. I don't think I'm artificially divorcing it. night. Verse 19 just immediately follows verse 18 which uses the consecutive vav at the very beginning of the verse when it says vil uh vili which uses the consecutive vow which tells you that that this happens after this.
>> So which verse starts off that way?
>> Verse 18.
>> Yeah.
No, I don't I don't deny that verse 18 is included in the preceding verses. I would say what what I'm the prophecy I'm saying I think starts with saying Lord my strength and my stronghold doesn't start and my refuge in the day of distress.
>> Why why are we artificially saying it starts in verse 19?
>> If I was reading Jeremiah basis are we saying this is all one >> as I if I was reading Jeremiah as a scroll I wouldn't be seeing oh now this is verse 19 and this is a new thought. I would just be reading this one prophecy that describes the nations coming back and then also afterwards it describes the nations sorry the Israelites coming back to God and then describes the nations abandoning their gods. I would assume that prophecy B happens after prophecy A especially since the consecutive v is in usage in verse 18.
>> Yeah, I don't deny that it is in verse 18. I mean, if we go to the next chapter, he's talking about even like to my reading a different topic altogether.
Um, so I don't see any reason to take what he's talking about in verses 19 to 21 as necessarily being chronologically after whatever prophecy he's giving in the verses prior. I mean, I'm not saying I'm not saying does verse 18 describe the loss of idols?
>> Uh, yes. talking about the members of Israel from what I can see who have turned away from their inheritance.
That's necessarily not who verse 19 onwards is referring to both saying the nations I believe the word is going in.
>> So the text describes the nations the people of Israel returning to their land >> and then forsaking their idols and then it describes the nations forsaking their idols.
Why shouldn't I think that prophecy B is following immediately after prophecy A?
>> Um, why should you think that? Um, >> I don't think there's a strong reason to deny that, but I also don't see any strong evidence for you to say it must be.
>> That's just the natural I think that's just the natural reading. and you really want to divorce verse 19 onward from the previous verses because >> previous verses haven't actually been fulfilled.
So, do you think like let's say if we were reading this and the text of chapter 17 was like immediately um appended to the end of verses 19 to the end that it would still seem like 19 to the end is clearly a like cuz for example like verses 14 uh 14 through the end of 18 are things that Yahweh is saying directly. Um, and then you have sort of a a line where the narration comes in again and just says, "Lord, my strength and my stronghold and my refuge in the day of distress." Um, to you the nations will come from the ends of the earth and and say these things. Um, >> I wouldn't just I mean your Bible might make it look like as if this is a new thought, but like if you're reading the Hebrew and a continuous thought, you know, it says, you know, with the the carcass of their detestable idols have filled my inheritance with their abominations. Oh Lord, my strength and my stronghold, my refuge in the day of trouble. To you the nation shall come.
Like it just seems like a continuation of thought like Israel has abandoned their god. Do you agree he's talking about uh two different groups in verses 16 to 18 versus 19 to the end?
>> Yes. But the problem is this idea that like this is just a completely separate prophecy altogether from the previous verses. No, I don't see that in the text.
>> I mean, I think they're related. They're both about how one follows the other um people will come >> Well, I don't see any reason to say that one chronologically follows the other. I have no reason I have no reason to artificially break verse 19 from the rest of the p from the rest of the prophecy.
>> I'm not saying it's an artificial break.
I'm saying that from verse 19 when he ceases the sort of dialogue coming from Yahweh and says, "Lord, my strength and my stronghold and my refuge in the day of distress." And then goes on and continues into what chapter 17 talks about, which is something completely um on a new topic from what was being discussed about Israel being gathered back to the lands of Israel.
>> So, um I don't see any reason to say that. All I'm seeing in the Hebrew text is God says he's going to reather the people of Israel. They'll abandon their go their false idols. And then it says that the nations will abandon their idols.
>> But this conversation has been going on.
>> Let me ask you this.
>> This conversation has been Let me ask you one more question.
>> This conversation's been going on for 58 minutes and I'm nursing a hangover. And quite frankly, the circular nature of this argument.
>> Last question. I promise. I promise.
Last question.
>> Fine. Last question.
Do you think that what chapter 17 talks starts talking about is necessarily chronologically after what the previous chapter is talking about?
>> Let's see.
Uh the sin of Judah is written with an iron pen with a diamond point. It is engraved on the tablet of their hearts.
No, because it's talking about the sin of Judah now.
It's not describing something.
>> It's no longer describing using the imperfect imperfect uh tenses something to happen.
>> Uh if you go down a few more verses, what does it say around uh verse 3 to 4?
>> On the mountains in the open country, your wealth and all your treasures I will give to your spoil at the price there. It's using the imperfect tense.
>> Okay. And when when does the events it's describing in three and four happen?
>> Let's see. On the mountains in the open country, your wealth and all your treasures I will give your spoil as the price of your sin throughout all your territory. By your own act, you shall lose the heritage. Seems like it's describing the Babylonian captivity.
>> Okay. And did that happen after? Okay. I don't want to be too uh But did that happen after >> How many more questions are you ask?
>> People were gathered back. All right.
Sorry. You're right. It went it went from the imperfect tense to the perfect tense and then back to the imperfect. So that's how we can tell >> a change in.
>> So kind of like when he says, "Lord, my strength and my stronghold currently and my refuge in the day of distress."
>> The nations will be my refuge.
>> The nations will come to you.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I agree.
>> Anyways, this has been >> riveting.
>> It's been nice. Thanks. Thank you.
>> You have been great. You have been very nice and polite and and you haven't been misogynistic or anything. So I I at least really >> That is a plus. That is a plus. A rare >> Thank you.
>> non-misogynistic, non slurring Christian.
>> Bare minimum. I know. But uh I wish you guys the best. Um thank you for giving me the time and uh maybe one day I'll rejoin.
>> You have a good day. Anyways, this has been going on for two hours. I went live for just because so are the pe for the people of YouTube. I see you all and I love you all. But uh still nursing my hangover and other things that I'm not willing to talk about right now in my life. And um anyways, they um L of Heaven and Jeso, thank you both for coming up and hanging out with me as well as uh um Jaden Ratagand and who else was up here that I'm Johnny >> and and Johnny B.
>> Thank you all for coming up here, hanging out with me. Um I think I'm about to go back to bed again. Um lots of water. Absolutely.
>> Yep. Drink your water. take your ibuprofen.
>> And uh hopefully we'll be back on Saturday. I'm extremely not in a good place right now, but we'll see if I come back on Saturday. Um love you guys and have a wonderful evening.
YouTube.
>> Born from dust and questioning fire, wielding truth like a sword of desire.
Ancient scrolls and cosmic flame. He tears through it. He breaks the chain.
Echoes of prophets, the scars alive.
Knowledge and thunder interwined.
Reasons where blind faith fell. He reads the word and he reads it well.
The Bible guide, seeker of the light.
Through time and fire he rides the night. With reasons blade and wisdom cry.
The world shall hear the Bible.
Scrolls of ages, words of flame. He dares to question every dawn to sky. He breaks the chains of every li and the flame.
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